November 9, 2022 • 37 mins
On this week’s podcast, hear Martha in a revealing conversation with one of her closest friends and teachers. Charlotte Beers broke the glass ceiling of the “Mad Men” advertising industry as the head of two global advertising agencies. She served as Under Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs for Colin Powell. She and Martha met as divorcees, single women carving their paths in a demanding New York City business environment. Their friendship grew as they built brands, sharing ideas and learning from each other, and celebrating their successes together. Martha trusted Charlotte’s business expertise so much that she asked her to join her company’s board. Here, the two talk about pioneering the concept of brand stewardship, why women need to keep their own scorecards, and stories they usually share only with each other.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
At the end of my do all presentation about what
brand stewardship is, the clients stood and applauded. I have
never had that happen before since with clients, and they
all went home and called Ogilvy people in their countries
and said, I want some brand stewardship, Hi, everybody. Charlotte
(00:23):
Beers is a true luminary in the advertising world. Beers
has been nicknamed the most powerful woman in advertising, the
Queen of Medicine Avenue, and she's known as the woman
who broke the glass ceiling in advertising. Charlotte has graced
the cover of both Fortune and Business Week. In two
thousand and one, she was appointed by the late Secretary
(00:45):
of State, Colin Powell to serve as Under Secretary of
State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs. In two thousand
and nine, Charlotte was inducted into the Advertising Hall of Fame.
There's even a worse at Harvard that studies her leadership
at one of the nation's largest advertising firms. Charlotte is
(01:06):
one of my dearest friends. We've known each other for
many years. She's also served on the board of my company. Charlotte,
it's a pleasure to have you on my podcast. Well,
it's exciting. You know what. This reminds me of the
time you and I volunteered to speak to a thousand
women in Indianapolis and I'm getting ready with the script
(01:27):
and you said, no, no, no, we'll just sit down
and have pictures and we'll talk. And I thought it
would be a disaster, because you have a lot more
pictures than I do. But in fact, it was spontaneous
and we laughed and we talked, and at the end
of it, I still chill up a bit. The women
gave us a standing ovation. And the women in Indianapolis
are not easy, and they appreciate because I just know
(01:52):
who they are, and I respect that women in general
are not easy. No, you're right, there's this funny offshoot
of that which is not so glamorous. When I teach
these executive women, almost always after the meeting they come
and say, women are not nice to women. So we're
learning about scarcity, because if you think there's not another job,
(02:13):
you'll compete in a harsh way. Men have learned how
to compete at least overtly, more openly with one and
well maybe openly, but not so nicely. In the last
eight years. I would say men have treated men ideously well.
There is a universal meanness running a foot in the world.
But what I'm interested in is what I learned eventually
(02:37):
over time, in a ragged sort of way, is that
generosity is one of the great assets you can take
with you into business, and I began to finally understand
it and practice it well. I think it would be
really great to go back to how we met. Do
you remember? I remember a wedding and I looked up.
(03:01):
I was with Annie Denver, the widow of John Denver,
at this wedding, and she was still alive, wasn't he Yeah,
at the time, but she was wearing this white picquet
suit and she's petite, and I looked up in this
sort of goddess like blind creature came over in the
same suit, but she made the rest of us look
like chopped liver. And that was you. Oh gosh, I remember,
(03:23):
I remember wearing the same suit, and that was a
very sexy suit. No, no, it wasn't wasn't you, No, no, no,
it was Terry Mugler. Oh no, the very tiny, ways
kind of flare jacket, a short skirt. That was the
michaelis wedding. Yes it was. And actually I hadn't yet
(03:45):
come into New York and I hadn't quite faced what
I was about to do in the world. But it
was the biggest job I've ever had, though later I
was going to get a bigger one. Well, Charlotte had
just really had come to New York to see new apartment,
which was in the Waldorf Towers. She was the appointed
(04:05):
CEO of Ogilvy May They're one of the largest, if
not the largest at the time of the fifth largest,
if largest advertising agency globally, and she had accepted the
job and was coming to see what she could do
to furnish an already furnished apartment in the Waldorf Towers
and how she was going to make it her own.
(04:27):
You were setting down your roots in New York City,
Considering I lived in Chicago and I've been around the
world a bit, I was a novice in New York,
and I have to say, speaking of us, meaning, I
had no idea how lonely it would be to first
of all, not be welcome because I was an outsider
CEO and a woman, and the men who reported to
(04:50):
me were shocked to find themselves reporting to a woman,
and in some ways I didn't have their credentials. But
later we proved to do quite a good job together.
But in the meantime I was going home to this
empty hotel and one day you called, and you said,
would you like to come out to the Hampton's kind
(05:10):
of new ground for me? And I said yes, without
knowing what I was into. I was too tired to
do it, and I yet I didn't. That was amazingly generous.
Speaking of generosity, No, but Charlotte was interesting. Here she
is this, and you know, I am starting a company,
thinking about advertising and magazines and etcetera, etcetera. And here
(05:32):
is the top woman in advertising, moving right into our territory.
And and not only a beautiful woman, a very very
smart woman. She would fit right in with my gang
of friends. At the time, I was pretty new divorcee,
just finding my way in the social life of the
(05:53):
Hampton's and New York City, and Charlotte was much more
sophisticated than I was, and much more worldly, even though
she came from the Midwest, Texas, so I knew I
in Texas, but you were in Chicago at the time.
It's true, so um, we just were right at the
right time to become friends. And you know, Charlotte, it
(06:14):
really is hard to find friends when you're in your forties, fifties,
even early sixties. You don't know how you're going to
find new friends, and you've left behind some because your
lives have parted. But you imagine having a friend that
you can walk on the beach with and she will
tell you what she's trying to do with time Warner,
(06:36):
and the nerve of you thinking I might just pull
out of there and gone out, which is actually stopped
me in fear. And I was explaining to you as
a rehearsal how different a brand could be if you
approached it from a different vantage point, which was a
catechism I was working on for Ogilvie because Ogilvie was
in terrible shape and dreaming about it wouldn't do it.
(06:58):
And so Charlotte is re building Ogilvie. I am building
Martha Stewart living on the media um. And as we
cemented more and more of our friendship, I asked Charlotte
to sit on my board. Remember, oh my word, the
board was so much fun. We were so raucous, and
there were people there that you grew up. Well, one
(07:20):
or two that were your allies and important confidance. But
then you brought on some traditional board members who were
just kind of horrified to have so many women in
the room, saying, no, that's not how we do this.
And no one could teach you how to do the
work because you were the master of the word. I
was doing the work they were. They were adding their
opinions and their suggestions. Uh. And you really tempered a
(07:44):
lot of that board meeting. I really appreciated what you
did for us, No, really you did. You helped a lot.
And I must say also, like I can't speak like
Charlotte speaks. In fact, I don't know very many people
who can. She's like the orator with a golden tongue.
That's what That's how I described it to my friends.
Who's Charlotte. Oh she's an orator with a golden tongue.
(08:06):
That's a pretty intimidating. But no, but you do you
speak with such a vast vocabulary. I think that must
come from all the reading you do, because you do
NonStop reading. I do, But I I have this, uh
believe that were shaped so much and some of these,
for instance, I had a childhood of some hostility and difficulty.
(08:29):
I had asthma as a result of my family's chaos,
and all night, every night, I read through the night,
and I had the best, the most amazing vocabulary for
the fifth grade in the world. And from that point on,
words were really my alt I was skinny, I had
circles under my eyes, I didn't have much power anywhere,
(08:49):
and words were in the game. And to this day,
I think they've stood me as another way to be
in the world. Well, it's it's just I love. I
love just calling Charlotte uh, any time, any anywhere, uh,
and just speaking to her because I get infused with
maybe one or two new words, and and I would say, well,
(09:11):
that's a really nice way to put that. I say
it to myself. But it's that meeting and then the
fast development of a friendship. And then I introduced you.
I guess, did you know memory already? I knew her briefly, Mary,
who is our mutual friend, who is a garden designer
and kind of at the time when we first met,
sort of a New York socialite, more sophisticated at that
(09:33):
than we were, very sophisticated, knowing how to how to
maneuver in New York, in New York dinner society. She
knows how to She knew everyone, knew everyone, all the
friends and people would call her and you and I
would say okay. But the thing is, the three of
us had a sort of a life cycle crisis in time.
(09:53):
We were single, we were women trying to invent a
new life, and we supported one another. And you know,
to this day it operates. It's a pretty good thing,
it is. It's amazing, Charlotte, going back, even before we met,
(10:16):
how did you know you wanted a career in business.
Actually the significant thing and that education of mine is
I chose to major in math and minor in physics
because the option for me, this is it shows you
a bit older than you are, was domestic sciences. And
although you've made that a world class idea, for me,
it was terrifying because all the men around me had
(10:37):
all the power and the money and the security. So
given my background, I did not want to get trapped
into the kind of domestic life that I experienced in
my own family. So I chose those things to study
so that people would think I could think like a man.
The truth is I thought I could think better, but
I had to prove that, and so I wanted to things.
(11:00):
I wanted financial security and personal freedom to make choices,
both of which you attained. I did, and I think
it's an illusion to say you do that without a cost.
There are some costs. I've had more than one marriage.
Is you pointed out on TV? How many marriages have
you had, Charlie, I just can't remember. I know of
(11:22):
at least three. Well, you were a bridesmaid in one
of them, so you should have helped me out. I
gave her her last wedding at my house in Maine,
which was one of the most beautiful weddings we ever had.
Beautiful in our magazine or magazine. Oh my gosh. Yes,
it was a beautiful, beautiful wedding, and you were so beautiful.
(11:42):
The horse and carriage, remember it, it was so great. Well,
but memory was there and our other blond friends. I
was the standout in dark. But the thing is, I
believe that we pay a price to have the exceptional
lives we have, and it's okay. You make those agreements
(12:03):
early on. So when I took the job at Ogilvie,
which was actually past my expectations, because I'm going from
a smaller agency I owned to a giant one. I
knew why I was doing it. I wasn't doing it
to impress New York of the advertising world. I was
doing it to see if all I had learned in
a Petrie Dish in Chicago would travel to a world
(12:26):
class universe and help these people turn their company around.
To me, that's a mighty task and worth doing a
lot for them. But when you came to Ogilvie that
this is interesting to anybody who's interested in in really
building and rebuilding a business. Ogilvie was fifth largest agency
in the world. What were the major clients Unilever, Um,
(12:51):
Procter and gam Well. Broct and Gamble came later because
they were once competitors, but Ford Motor was a huge company.
American Express was a long time baby Ponds. There were
kind of legacy accounts, all of whom were anxious and leaving.
So it was a volatile time. In my opinion, since
I know now that I'm a change agent, I'm better
(13:14):
at that than holding the course. I thought the chaos
could be helpful to make change, because people of that
size and that company don't like to make change. You
came along and inventage your company and had to learn
how to transfer the assets, the imagination, the entrepreneurship to
another class. I'm having to guide a giant, nine thousand
(13:37):
people and fifty offices toward a common goal. And what
an admirable job you did because you brought in new
clients and new and new businesses. You brought in IBM.
How did you how did you reel them in? Well,
there's one of the fast story that I love. Because
it was such a pain. I couldn't convince a number
(13:59):
of key people at Ogilvy about this new idea. A
group of us formed called brand Stewardship, which was a
new theology of branding. I used to rehearse it with
you on the beach. In fact, sometime you were my
guinea pig, and it was actually a brilliant idea that
wasn't selling, and so I grabbed the last chance I
had to talk about it when five clients invited me
(14:21):
to speak and they had a number of other agencies.
At the end of my do all presentation about what
brand stewardship is, the clients stood and applauded. I have
never had that happen before since with clients, and they
all went home and called Ogilvie people in their countries
and said I want some brand stewardship. So that sold
(14:41):
it through, but that didn't mean it went all over
the world. And then IBM calls us on the quiet
and said, do you want to compete for all our business?
And they had forty five agencies and it was terrifying
and nobody wanted to do it because we had to
resign businesses to take it literally in shift to resign,
Microsoft had version Microsoft Wich was a fledgling company at
(15:02):
the time, but very hot, I know, but it was hard.
It's hard to even imagine Microsoft being fledgling to and
IBM is this great modelith IBM's billings in terms, that's
the revenue base we call the ad world was off
the charts. But and also what the work was. Anyway,
(15:23):
the thing is we won the account against all odds,
really and brand stewardship was the corner stone of that
win and that took it around the world. So my
job was over. So describe what brand stewardship is because
again you thought big. You thought you thought in in
new phraseology that no one had even thought of I
(15:44):
mean brand stewardship. What the heck is that you made
it up? I mean, this is did this is something
very important which I have followed for so long. You
became my best student. You're making me look really good,
come to think of it. But it's the theology of
branding that says the motional content and the nature of
the relationship between the brand and the users more important
(16:05):
than the product itself, which is heresy for Procter and
gambling people like that. But nobody has proved that better
than you have. What's the brand stand for now? In
your case, it's your own value system and what you
believed in it long transcended the tabletop setting, right, So no,
it's an authenticity that that and the relationship with the client,
(16:26):
with the buyer, the the end user that really makes
the difference. And you you might have a similar plate
to someone else who has a similar state, but your authentic,
your authentic presentation is what gets the customer. Now, the
depth of experience with one another is just as important
(16:48):
as it is in a family. So that was the
idea of brand stewardship. Here's the amusing thing. By the
time I jumped over to the state department. I was
dealing with the world's biggest brand, and I wasn't quite
prepared get into the stage department yet because we haven't
finished with advertising. Charlotte mentioned that they represented Ford Motors.
(17:09):
Then Ford Motors buys a European Yeah, a Jaguar, which
he immediately got. You got immediately got a Jaguar. You know,
I love this story. I will never have another like it.
The four other agencies competing all had car experience. We
knew zip about cars. They're supposed to be a very
(17:30):
special advertising assignment and nobody understands some except car guys.
But I was in love with the Jaguar, and I
was in love with the emotional content of a jaguar
and its relationship to his owner. Talk about heated. So
we used that thinking. But honestly, the people that work
in Ogilvy's made stunning pictures of Earth, the kids singing
(17:53):
at last my love has come along, or the kid
the kitten with the jaguar. Uh. It was incredible, and
I loved seeing you driving around and your you had
a dark green Jaguar. If I remember, I had two Jaguars,
and when we were pitching the account, it's still a
story at Ogilvie that I threw one on the desk
(18:13):
and the head guy was a dashing Englishman who loved
his car. And then I said, that's for fun and
this one and I threw the second set of keys on.
It's to keep in the garage because everyone knew Jaguars
broke down and he was fixing that. Well, it was
incredible that you that you that was the first win. Yes,
that was amazing. And then and then you got the IBM,
(18:36):
and then you got others and other and built you
built American Express so beautifully. Oh that was That's a
beautiful brand. And I I actually got to do an
American Express. This is one of the crossovers. I look
up one day and the MX brief is saying that
they've hired Martha Stewart to do this spot. And you know,
by then you're pretty unaffordable. But American Express is budge
(19:00):
it free, basically, And it wasn't it about in a
swimming What was They were trying to show that that
a specific American Express card was the only card you needed,
so you were going to cut up all your other
cards And they had me in the bottom of my
swimming pool in Westford, Connecticut, cutting up tiling the bottom
(19:23):
of the of my pool, so with all my cut
up credit cards, and it was Venus on the halfshell.
You know, they're very beautiful painting, the Italian painting of
Venus on the clamshell. And so it was a spectacular commercial.
I missed these times. I think Budweiser can still do
them where the budgets are big and the intent is
(19:44):
emotionally stunning. Yes, But so advertising went on and on.
You really did change the landscape for advertising in the
United States and elsewhere. But mostly I remember in the
United States and um and advertising became sexy because we're
fun again. Well, you were sexy. You were very sexy
(20:04):
CEO wearing these very beautifully fitted suits. Remember the where
did you get all your clothes? You got some fabulous
shop out in Chicago. Well, there was a shop in
Chicago that dressed me to the tins and nice Ultimo
doesn't exist anymore, but that woman scoured the earth for
fitted suits. But you know, I had to be as
(20:25):
tailored as my clients. The head of Nestley was the
most beautifully dressed man I'd ever seen. I was thankful
to have my beautiful suit on, so I couldn't go
too far and I didn't want to any where. You
were wearing Armandi, you were wearing fiery Mugler, you were
wearing you were wearing a lot of really beautiful and
you know, I was those. I was on the board
of Federate department stores. And I'll never forget when I
(20:46):
didn't want to go because I was tired, I didn't
have time, and the man explained to me, I'd get
off of my clothes, and I thought, that's it, I'm
doing it. And then I was very well dressed. You were.
You were always well dressed and well often made your
friends look at our stuff better we I did, you did.
But Martha, do you remember that you and I were
(21:09):
the only women, and that in many ways on these
big forums where we were getting awards and the way
that we're worked more than the now, as someone would
be invited to present for you, and that would double
the horsepower. That's how they do. So I want marketing
something or that you introduced me. Then you'd win something
and I'd introduce you. And we were in a sea
(21:29):
of men in Texas. Oh yeah, well, we were. We
were powerful women as we still are powerful women. But
it was fun building that perception. Well, I was so
glad to have you on the stage. So you said
(21:50):
you were a natural and advertising. Why were you a natural?
I think I think you know when you have the
work you need to have if you never know what
time it is. You were always like that, but not
many people are. I know people. I've always known many
people who watched the clock, and I don't regards them
that you can't be immersed. But what happened to me
(22:11):
is the love of words and ideas ideas ran the meeting,
not the people, So hierarchies diminished. I'm a bit of
a maverick. The creative people are bizarre and my favorites
and the media orders it. And then there's this act
of persuasion between you and the client, and ultimately somebody
has to woo them, and they're not necessarily knowledgeable about
(22:33):
the outcome. You can't prove any AdWords, so there's always
a great deal of tension. All that brew was my
cup of tea. Well, the adveratising you did, and the
advertising is being done. Now, what do you think? Well,
the world has shifted so much, and I'm in touch
with a lot of these executive women I've taught, and
(22:54):
they're running businesses that are focused on performance can be proven.
So digital average asking. The reason it's easy to prove
it is it's not asking you to do anything unusual
except click this, tip that or sign this paper so
we can count the heads and it's reassuring the clients.
But it's not the big thing. If you hand someone
an idea that's larger than their brand, the consequences will
(23:17):
change their life in the world. But it's very difficult
for people to justify or believe that now. But I
believe that brands and their focus and their nourishment will
come back full because digital isn't I hope so, because
the digital cannot be the only way to judge the
success of a brand just can't be well. Of course,
(23:40):
sales are, you know, but in the last two years
with COVID, a lot of things went haywire. That's so true,
and advertising left the pages of magazines. Well we all
want now we're cautious in a way that's detrimental. So um,
if you were focused on proving in your work works,
(24:00):
you can guarantee it'll be obvious and simple. But I
mean the whole thing that has catapulted you into more
experiences and opportunities than you have ever seen is because
there aren't too many full fledged, beautifully mannered, many textured
brands out there, and we were thirsty for those experiences.
(24:23):
So here you are at the top of your game,
not running only Ogilvy. But then you were also given
the CEO job at J Walter Thompson. Now how could
you manage two agencies like that and by the same
(24:44):
parent company? Right? The thing is I grew up at J.
Walter Thompson, so they knew me there, and they were
having a dearth of opportunity, and I agreed to go
in after I left and retired from Ogilvie and there
was a fabulous woman running Overvie, Shelly Lazarus. They were
in good shape, so I agreed to take this interimal role.
(25:05):
And I have to tell you we did some good.
I helped them get some business, I helped structure some things,
but they were changing the CEO. That wasn't a good
solution for me. I think when you have done all
these things in a most comprehensive way, it's hard to
do anything part time. But then you were married, you
got you had your new husband building art dealer, and
(25:27):
then you get a call from Washington. I was on
the board of gulf Stream Aeronautics, and just like your board,
I tended toward um privately held companies like Jay Crew
and Martha Stewart Living and gulf Stream, which was owned
by Forceman Little on the board were the most stunning
group of men in the planet, all planning to enter politics.
(25:50):
But Coen Pow was my seat mate. Donald Rumsfeld was
in the room and not one of those people, um
Michael over Penskey. Well sometimes they did. Nobody talked anyway.
Teddy did all the talking, but was a wonderful experience.
The day that George Bush, George w got in on
the skin, I would I'm not particularly political at this
(26:14):
point in my life. I am just really making it
through the tunnel of evolution out of advertising into marriages.
Both Cole and Pale and Donald Romsfeld made me a
job offer in the new administration, which was well for
for Donald Romsfeld. I think he was I never actually
understood it, but it was sort of like the number
(26:35):
one spokesperson or the Pentagon. That's actually not my forte.
That's a mouthpiece job, and it takes a lot of
tap dancing. I don't know how to do. And I'm
not interested in reading speeches that probably were written for you. Yes,
that was not based Yeah, and pal Gay he didn't
understand the job either. Is um diplomacy as practiced in
(26:59):
the stage department had some transfers from the old U
s I A. And when I read the charter, I thought,
I've been trending my whole life to do this job.
It is to build mutual understanding between the United States
and the rest of the people in the world. Imagine
an assignment. I was crazy to do that. That fits
so well with your experience, because that's what you were
(27:21):
doing always, every single day you were you were fitting
a product to the people. You were fitting uh, some
idea to the people. And here you are fitting America
to the people. It sounded good on paper. It's really
hard to execute, for one thing, just as an asside
in case you're all headed this way. Agreeing to be
(27:44):
a presidential appointee means you have to have top security,
which means they go through your life in a painful way.
Lawyers are all over your books and your stocks and
your finances. In your history. You had to give up
all your stocks. I had to lay them in a
safe way. So I went to see Robert Strauss, the
godfather to all the presidents. I said, Bob, I don't
(28:04):
want to do this. I thought it sounded awful, and
he said, honey, you've gone too far. They'll they'll find
something wrong with you if you step out now. And
I left. They're not convinced by him. And just like
I recommend to all the people I've ever worked with,
find out why you're doing something. What's your motivation for
this job? I was walking down the street and I realized,
(28:26):
wait a minute, my brothers served in the service. I
am just being asked to serve. Of course I'm doing it.
And from then on I didn't look back. And then
Charlotte was given the Middle East to uh well, nine
eleven gave us the Middle and that was on our
watch changed everything, And that you found it extremely difficult. Well,
(28:49):
the thing I think is worth mentioning is that in business, Martha,
you know these things. We know that performance and profits
and sales as is an agreed goal, and also the
well being of the people in the harmony of your team,
and so on. It's all comparatively straightforward, but when you
go into government. I had lots of dirty tricks played
(29:11):
on me, and I was shocked because we're in nine eleven.
We're trying to do the largest possible thing. And what
happened is if you don't share an ideology with a
particular group, they hope you fail. It's nothing in between,
and the degree of the ruthlessness shook me up a little.
They're used to. I remember when you when you were
(29:33):
going through that entire period of wondering should I stay
in public service or not, and you decided finally that
it was you just had to get out. Once I
got the briefing on why we were invading Iraq, the
idea of trying to build mutual understanding while we were
on the warpath was not even possible. And privately, I
(29:53):
have to say I didn't believe in the briefing, and
it's hard you can't say that this is what I
learned in the State Department. Every newspaper and television show
wanted me to talk about while I was right, and
they wanted me to out, and it would have been
wonderful to do because I didn't like some of the
people making that decision. I didn't like their decisions, rather
(30:14):
not them. But the truth is I learned, just like
Coen pal did you send soldiers into the war, You're
not going to diminish their purpose in going. So that's
nothing I could write about. What's been your most amazing
experience in your life so far? Thank you for so far.
It's interesting. I was always aware that I would have
(30:37):
a hard time retiring because i've My idea was George
Bernard Shaw's quote, I want to be handed a mighty task.
I don't want to be a sniveling little person on
the side begging someone to help me, or that's a paraphrase.
But anyway, I was thrust forward and most of it
was exceptionally rewarding. And then the government job was over
(30:59):
the top and very complicated for me, but my learning
curve was immense. So I think the challenge then becomes
how do you shift gears from online power? And I
found it by coming out of I hadn't looked up
since nine eleven and Washington. I look up and I
see a professor's written a book Women Don't Ask, And
(31:22):
Jack Welch wrote a book glorifying men in business to
the exclusion of any woman who ever lived, which really
ticked me off. And I like and admire him, but
I didn't think there was anything operating. So I decided
that I had better participate in sharing what you and
I learned in some way that would be very actionable.
(31:42):
So I wrote a book, which I don't It was
more of a textbook. I'd Rather Be in Charge by
Charlotte Bears. That is not the best title, is it
like that? Well? I wanted to say I'd rather you
be in charge, but um, and I'll never forget Billy,
a friend of ours, a publisher, he said, you should
(32:03):
have said I'd rather be on top A man's interpretation
of life. Well, this is what I wrote as the
market blurb on the back. Charlotte Beers is captivating, persuasive, charming, disarming, eloquent, substantive, successful, modest, strategic, capable, determined, convincing.
(32:26):
Enough said, read this book to learn how to be
in charge? And uh, and really it does help and
it has helped many, many, many women be in charge.
But that's a very beautiful list of things to be
accused of. Well, those are Those are great and accurate
adjectives for Charlotte Beers and so. But why only one book?
(32:49):
I I get very upset when a person writes one book,
who's a very good, eloquent writer. By the way, So
I think you have to have to apologie, you have
to well, I'm I'm actually on another kind of book. Um.
I have been inspired by some of the new shorter versions,
not short in totality, but there's a skill to extrapolating
(33:14):
out of your experiences and the people you've witnessed, pieces
of life that other people can use. I'm on it now.
I don't know how to fall so in a short sentence,
what makes a great leader? There is no way a
great leader can be heard without developing deliberately a communication skill.
(33:35):
And some people have odd ones and people adapt to it.
But by and large, you have to be able to
explain what you mean. You need to speak with clarity,
and you cannot walk away from the burden of being persuasive.
And persuasion takes emotion, and people think business talk is
clean of emotion, and it's not. The only successful moments
(33:56):
you have is when you care so much you can't
stop yourself. But you've learned how to express yourself well,
how do you define leadership? I would say leadership is
you're walking out in a path like you and I did,
with nothing clear, no frontier in front of us, no path,
and you turn around and people are following you. And
(34:18):
why do you tell women to keep their own scoreboards? Oh?
I love this well because all during the time that
I met the women after the State Department, the ones
I and I bet even today, we let people tell
us who we are. It's very comforting. Somebody pats you
on the head, they tell you you're wonderful. Usually they're
lying to some extent and you haven't worked out yourself.
(34:39):
Or they tell you you're blue, but you know you're pink.
And if you don't know your pink, you're going to
be at the mercy of that voice. So every day
and every important meeting, you do the scorekeeping, and then
people won't throw you off and you ignore what they say.
I've been ignoring what people have said about me for years.
What are some of the biggest mistakes women make in
(35:00):
the business world. I think two things. One is more controversial.
The other one is bravery is important, and bravery comes
in the form of communication skills that are not typical
for women like anger and abruptness and a certain degree
of firmness, and that strength has to be done in
(35:21):
a woman's ways. You don't copy the man doing it.
But I'm pretty sure men wouldn't take me on too
readily after I had developed my way of expressing myself.
But my second favorite one is learned to bluff. You
can't get by without bluffing. The world is complicated, there
are many forces operating, and men know a lot about bluffing.
(35:42):
When you play poker, I could play a great poker
I like. I like card games. I think we should
take up poker. I think we would learn and we
could come the next up for the next decade. I
think we should take up poker and we'll put We
won't put money on it, We'll put great meals on that.
(36:03):
I can get some really good teachers. They might be men,
but I think I know men are good teachers. But
I think I have a couple of women who are
also very good poker players. I should say that I
never had better friends and more support than I did
with the men I grew up with. I never have
worked against them. I've tried to make sure the women
are included. I'd like to see the men take courses
in leadership. Now it's a lost art. Well, it's been
(36:27):
so much fun and also very enlightening to speak with
you on this level today, Charlotte. Not that we don't
always speak on a pretty high level. We do, but
it's so nice to share your knowledge and your expertise
and and uh and your ideas with our audience. And
I'm sure that they were thrilled to hear you. Well,
when I'm in the company of someone I love and respect,
(36:49):
that's the best interview I could imagine. Before we get
tears in our eyes complimenting one another, we will stay
top up. But um, but it's been it's been a
real pleasure to speak to you and and so valuable
for our audience. Thank you very much,
At the end of my do all presentation about what
brand stewardship is, the clients stood and applauded. I have
never had that happen before since with clients, and they
all went home and called Ogilvy people in their countries
and said, I want some brand stewardship, Hi, everybody. Charlotte
(00:23):
Beers is a true luminary in the advertising world. Beers
has been nicknamed the most powerful woman in advertising, the
Queen of Medicine Avenue, and she's known as the woman
who broke the glass ceiling in advertising. Charlotte has graced
the cover of both Fortune and Business Week. In two
thousand and one, she was appointed by the late Secretary
(00:45):
of State, Colin Powell to serve as Under Secretary of
State for Public Diplomacy and Public Affairs. In two thousand
and nine, Charlotte was inducted into the Advertising Hall of Fame.
There's even a worse at Harvard that studies her leadership
at one of the nation's largest advertising firms. Charlotte is
(01:06):
one of my dearest friends. We've known each other for
many years. She's also served on the board of my company. Charlotte,
it's a pleasure to have you on my podcast. Well,
it's exciting. You know what. This reminds me of the
time you and I volunteered to speak to a thousand
women in Indianapolis and I'm getting ready with the script
(01:27):
and you said, no, no, no, we'll just sit down
and have pictures and we'll talk. And I thought it
would be a disaster, because you have a lot more
pictures than I do. But in fact, it was spontaneous
and we laughed and we talked, and at the end
of it, I still chill up a bit. The women
gave us a standing ovation. And the women in Indianapolis
are not easy, and they appreciate because I just know
(01:52):
who they are, and I respect that women in general
are not easy. No, you're right, there's this funny offshoot
of that which is not so glamorous. When I teach
these executive women, almost always after the meeting they come
and say, women are not nice to women. So we're
learning about scarcity, because if you think there's not another job,
(02:13):
you'll compete in a harsh way. Men have learned how
to compete at least overtly, more openly with one and
well maybe openly, but not so nicely. In the last
eight years. I would say men have treated men ideously well.
There is a universal meanness running a foot in the world.
But what I'm interested in is what I learned eventually
(02:37):
over time, in a ragged sort of way, is that
generosity is one of the great assets you can take
with you into business, and I began to finally understand
it and practice it well. I think it would be
really great to go back to how we met. Do
you remember? I remember a wedding and I looked up.
(03:01):
I was with Annie Denver, the widow of John Denver,
at this wedding, and she was still alive, wasn't he Yeah,
at the time, but she was wearing this white picquet
suit and she's petite, and I looked up in this
sort of goddess like blind creature came over in the
same suit, but she made the rest of us look
like chopped liver. And that was you. Oh gosh, I remember,
(03:23):
I remember wearing the same suit, and that was a
very sexy suit. No, no, it wasn't wasn't you, No, no, no,
it was Terry Mugler. Oh no, the very tiny, ways
kind of flare jacket, a short skirt. That was the
michaelis wedding. Yes it was. And actually I hadn't yet
(03:45):
come into New York and I hadn't quite faced what
I was about to do in the world. But it
was the biggest job I've ever had, though later I
was going to get a bigger one. Well, Charlotte had
just really had come to New York to see new apartment,
which was in the Waldorf Towers. She was the appointed
(04:05):
CEO of Ogilvy May They're one of the largest, if
not the largest at the time of the fifth largest,
if largest advertising agency globally, and she had accepted the
job and was coming to see what she could do
to furnish an already furnished apartment in the Waldorf Towers
and how she was going to make it her own.
(04:27):
You were setting down your roots in New York City,
Considering I lived in Chicago and I've been around the
world a bit, I was a novice in New York,
and I have to say, speaking of us, meaning, I
had no idea how lonely it would be to first
of all, not be welcome because I was an outsider
CEO and a woman, and the men who reported to
(04:50):
me were shocked to find themselves reporting to a woman,
and in some ways I didn't have their credentials. But
later we proved to do quite a good job together.
But in the meantime I was going home to this
empty hotel and one day you called, and you said,
would you like to come out to the Hampton's kind
(05:10):
of new ground for me? And I said yes, without
knowing what I was into. I was too tired to
do it, and I yet I didn't. That was amazingly generous.
Speaking of generosity, No, but Charlotte was interesting. Here she
is this, and you know, I am starting a company,
thinking about advertising and magazines and etcetera, etcetera. And here
(05:32):
is the top woman in advertising, moving right into our territory.
And and not only a beautiful woman, a very very
smart woman. She would fit right in with my gang
of friends. At the time, I was pretty new divorcee,
just finding my way in the social life of the
(05:53):
Hampton's and New York City, and Charlotte was much more
sophisticated than I was, and much more worldly, even though
she came from the Midwest, Texas, so I knew I
in Texas, but you were in Chicago at the time.
It's true, so um, we just were right at the
right time to become friends. And you know, Charlotte, it
(06:14):
really is hard to find friends when you're in your forties, fifties,
even early sixties. You don't know how you're going to
find new friends, and you've left behind some because your
lives have parted. But you imagine having a friend that
you can walk on the beach with and she will
tell you what she's trying to do with time Warner,
(06:36):
and the nerve of you thinking I might just pull
out of there and gone out, which is actually stopped
me in fear. And I was explaining to you as
a rehearsal how different a brand could be if you
approached it from a different vantage point, which was a
catechism I was working on for Ogilvie because Ogilvie was
in terrible shape and dreaming about it wouldn't do it.
(06:58):
And so Charlotte is re building Ogilvie. I am building
Martha Stewart living on the media um. And as we
cemented more and more of our friendship, I asked Charlotte
to sit on my board. Remember, oh my word, the
board was so much fun. We were so raucous, and
there were people there that you grew up. Well, one
(07:20):
or two that were your allies and important confidance. But
then you brought on some traditional board members who were
just kind of horrified to have so many women in
the room, saying, no, that's not how we do this.
And no one could teach you how to do the
work because you were the master of the word. I
was doing the work they were. They were adding their
opinions and their suggestions. Uh. And you really tempered a
(07:44):
lot of that board meeting. I really appreciated what you
did for us, No, really you did. You helped a lot.
And I must say also, like I can't speak like
Charlotte speaks. In fact, I don't know very many people
who can. She's like the orator with a golden tongue.
That's what That's how I described it to my friends.
Who's Charlotte. Oh she's an orator with a golden tongue.
(08:06):
That's a pretty intimidating. But no, but you do you
speak with such a vast vocabulary. I think that must
come from all the reading you do, because you do
NonStop reading. I do, But I I have this, uh
believe that were shaped so much and some of these,
for instance, I had a childhood of some hostility and difficulty.
(08:29):
I had asthma as a result of my family's chaos,
and all night, every night, I read through the night,
and I had the best, the most amazing vocabulary for
the fifth grade in the world. And from that point on,
words were really my alt I was skinny, I had
circles under my eyes, I didn't have much power anywhere,
(08:49):
and words were in the game. And to this day,
I think they've stood me as another way to be
in the world. Well, it's it's just I love. I
love just calling Charlotte uh, any time, any anywhere, uh,
and just speaking to her because I get infused with
maybe one or two new words, and and I would say, well,
(09:11):
that's a really nice way to put that. I say
it to myself. But it's that meeting and then the
fast development of a friendship. And then I introduced you.
I guess, did you know memory already? I knew her briefly, Mary,
who is our mutual friend, who is a garden designer
and kind of at the time when we first met,
sort of a New York socialite, more sophisticated at that
(09:33):
than we were, very sophisticated, knowing how to how to
maneuver in New York, in New York dinner society. She
knows how to She knew everyone, knew everyone, all the
friends and people would call her and you and I
would say okay. But the thing is, the three of
us had a sort of a life cycle crisis in time.
(09:53):
We were single, we were women trying to invent a
new life, and we supported one another. And you know,
to this day it operates. It's a pretty good thing,
it is. It's amazing, Charlotte, going back, even before we met,
(10:16):
how did you know you wanted a career in business.
Actually the significant thing and that education of mine is
I chose to major in math and minor in physics
because the option for me, this is it shows you
a bit older than you are, was domestic sciences. And
although you've made that a world class idea, for me,
it was terrifying because all the men around me had
(10:37):
all the power and the money and the security. So
given my background, I did not want to get trapped
into the kind of domestic life that I experienced in
my own family. So I chose those things to study
so that people would think I could think like a man.
The truth is I thought I could think better, but
I had to prove that, and so I wanted to things.
(11:00):
I wanted financial security and personal freedom to make choices,
both of which you attained. I did, and I think
it's an illusion to say you do that without a cost.
There are some costs. I've had more than one marriage.
Is you pointed out on TV? How many marriages have
you had, Charlie, I just can't remember. I know of
(11:22):
at least three. Well, you were a bridesmaid in one
of them, so you should have helped me out. I
gave her her last wedding at my house in Maine,
which was one of the most beautiful weddings we ever had.
Beautiful in our magazine or magazine. Oh my gosh. Yes,
it was a beautiful, beautiful wedding, and you were so beautiful.
(11:42):
The horse and carriage, remember it, it was so great. Well,
but memory was there and our other blond friends. I
was the standout in dark. But the thing is, I
believe that we pay a price to have the exceptional
lives we have, and it's okay. You make those agreements
(12:03):
early on. So when I took the job at Ogilvie,
which was actually past my expectations, because I'm going from
a smaller agency I owned to a giant one. I
knew why I was doing it. I wasn't doing it
to impress New York of the advertising world. I was
doing it to see if all I had learned in
a Petrie Dish in Chicago would travel to a world
(12:26):
class universe and help these people turn their company around.
To me, that's a mighty task and worth doing a
lot for them. But when you came to Ogilvie that
this is interesting to anybody who's interested in in really
building and rebuilding a business. Ogilvie was fifth largest agency
in the world. What were the major clients Unilever, Um,
(12:51):
Procter and gam Well. Broct and Gamble came later because
they were once competitors, but Ford Motor was a huge company.
American Express was a long time baby Ponds. There were
kind of legacy accounts, all of whom were anxious and leaving.
So it was a volatile time. In my opinion, since
I know now that I'm a change agent, I'm better
(13:14):
at that than holding the course. I thought the chaos
could be helpful to make change, because people of that
size and that company don't like to make change. You
came along and inventage your company and had to learn
how to transfer the assets, the imagination, the entrepreneurship to
another class. I'm having to guide a giant, nine thousand
(13:37):
people and fifty offices toward a common goal. And what
an admirable job you did because you brought in new
clients and new and new businesses. You brought in IBM.
How did you how did you reel them in? Well,
there's one of the fast story that I love. Because
it was such a pain. I couldn't convince a number
(13:59):
of key people at Ogilvy about this new idea. A
group of us formed called brand Stewardship, which was a
new theology of branding. I used to rehearse it with
you on the beach. In fact, sometime you were my
guinea pig, and it was actually a brilliant idea that
wasn't selling, and so I grabbed the last chance I
had to talk about it when five clients invited me
(14:21):
to speak and they had a number of other agencies.
At the end of my do all presentation about what
brand stewardship is, the clients stood and applauded. I have
never had that happen before since with clients, and they
all went home and called Ogilvie people in their countries
and said I want some brand stewardship. So that sold
(14:41):
it through, but that didn't mean it went all over
the world. And then IBM calls us on the quiet
and said, do you want to compete for all our business?
And they had forty five agencies and it was terrifying
and nobody wanted to do it because we had to
resign businesses to take it literally in shift to resign,
Microsoft had version Microsoft Wich was a fledgling company at
(15:02):
the time, but very hot, I know, but it was hard.
It's hard to even imagine Microsoft being fledgling to and
IBM is this great modelith IBM's billings in terms, that's
the revenue base we call the ad world was off
the charts. But and also what the work was. Anyway,
(15:23):
the thing is we won the account against all odds,
really and brand stewardship was the corner stone of that
win and that took it around the world. So my
job was over. So describe what brand stewardship is because
again you thought big. You thought you thought in in
new phraseology that no one had even thought of I
(15:44):
mean brand stewardship. What the heck is that you made
it up? I mean, this is did this is something
very important which I have followed for so long. You
became my best student. You're making me look really good,
come to think of it. But it's the theology of
branding that says the motional content and the nature of
the relationship between the brand and the users more important
(16:05):
than the product itself, which is heresy for Procter and
gambling people like that. But nobody has proved that better
than you have. What's the brand stand for now? In
your case, it's your own value system and what you
believed in it long transcended the tabletop setting, right, So no,
it's an authenticity that that and the relationship with the client,
(16:26):
with the buyer, the the end user that really makes
the difference. And you you might have a similar plate
to someone else who has a similar state, but your authentic,
your authentic presentation is what gets the customer. Now, the
depth of experience with one another is just as important
(16:48):
as it is in a family. So that was the
idea of brand stewardship. Here's the amusing thing. By the
time I jumped over to the state department. I was
dealing with the world's biggest brand, and I wasn't quite
prepared get into the stage department yet because we haven't
finished with advertising. Charlotte mentioned that they represented Ford Motors.
(17:09):
Then Ford Motors buys a European Yeah, a Jaguar, which
he immediately got. You got immediately got a Jaguar. You know,
I love this story. I will never have another like it.
The four other agencies competing all had car experience. We
knew zip about cars. They're supposed to be a very
(17:30):
special advertising assignment and nobody understands some except car guys.
But I was in love with the Jaguar, and I
was in love with the emotional content of a jaguar
and its relationship to his owner. Talk about heated. So
we used that thinking. But honestly, the people that work
in Ogilvy's made stunning pictures of Earth, the kids singing
(17:53):
at last my love has come along, or the kid
the kitten with the jaguar. Uh. It was incredible, and
I loved seeing you driving around and your you had
a dark green Jaguar. If I remember, I had two Jaguars,
and when we were pitching the account, it's still a
story at Ogilvie that I threw one on the desk
(18:13):
and the head guy was a dashing Englishman who loved
his car. And then I said, that's for fun and
this one and I threw the second set of keys on.
It's to keep in the garage because everyone knew Jaguars
broke down and he was fixing that. Well, it was
incredible that you that you that was the first win. Yes,
that was amazing. And then and then you got the IBM,
(18:36):
and then you got others and other and built you
built American Express so beautifully. Oh that was That's a
beautiful brand. And I I actually got to do an
American Express. This is one of the crossovers. I look
up one day and the MX brief is saying that
they've hired Martha Stewart to do this spot. And you know,
by then you're pretty unaffordable. But American Express is budge
(19:00):
it free, basically, And it wasn't it about in a
swimming What was They were trying to show that that
a specific American Express card was the only card you needed,
so you were going to cut up all your other
cards And they had me in the bottom of my
swimming pool in Westford, Connecticut, cutting up tiling the bottom
(19:23):
of the of my pool, so with all my cut
up credit cards, and it was Venus on the halfshell.
You know, they're very beautiful painting, the Italian painting of
Venus on the clamshell. And so it was a spectacular commercial.
I missed these times. I think Budweiser can still do
them where the budgets are big and the intent is
(19:44):
emotionally stunning. Yes, But so advertising went on and on.
You really did change the landscape for advertising in the
United States and elsewhere. But mostly I remember in the
United States and um and advertising became sexy because we're
fun again. Well, you were sexy. You were very sexy
(20:04):
CEO wearing these very beautifully fitted suits. Remember the where
did you get all your clothes? You got some fabulous
shop out in Chicago. Well, there was a shop in
Chicago that dressed me to the tins and nice Ultimo
doesn't exist anymore, but that woman scoured the earth for
fitted suits. But you know, I had to be as
(20:25):
tailored as my clients. The head of Nestley was the
most beautifully dressed man I'd ever seen. I was thankful
to have my beautiful suit on, so I couldn't go
too far and I didn't want to any where. You
were wearing Armandi, you were wearing fiery Mugler, you were
wearing you were wearing a lot of really beautiful and
you know, I was those. I was on the board
of Federate department stores. And I'll never forget when I
(20:46):
didn't want to go because I was tired, I didn't
have time, and the man explained to me, I'd get
off of my clothes, and I thought, that's it, I'm
doing it. And then I was very well dressed. You were.
You were always well dressed and well often made your
friends look at our stuff better we I did, you did.
But Martha, do you remember that you and I were
(21:09):
the only women, and that in many ways on these
big forums where we were getting awards and the way
that we're worked more than the now, as someone would
be invited to present for you, and that would double
the horsepower. That's how they do. So I want marketing
something or that you introduced me. Then you'd win something
and I'd introduce you. And we were in a sea
(21:29):
of men in Texas. Oh yeah, well, we were. We
were powerful women as we still are powerful women. But
it was fun building that perception. Well, I was so
glad to have you on the stage. So you said
(21:50):
you were a natural and advertising. Why were you a natural?
I think I think you know when you have the
work you need to have if you never know what
time it is. You were always like that, but not
many people are. I know people. I've always known many
people who watched the clock, and I don't regards them
that you can't be immersed. But what happened to me
(22:11):
is the love of words and ideas ideas ran the meeting,
not the people, So hierarchies diminished. I'm a bit of
a maverick. The creative people are bizarre and my favorites
and the media orders it. And then there's this act
of persuasion between you and the client, and ultimately somebody
has to woo them, and they're not necessarily knowledgeable about
(22:33):
the outcome. You can't prove any AdWords, so there's always
a great deal of tension. All that brew was my
cup of tea. Well, the adveratising you did, and the
advertising is being done. Now, what do you think? Well,
the world has shifted so much, and I'm in touch
with a lot of these executive women I've taught, and
(22:54):
they're running businesses that are focused on performance can be proven.
So digital average asking. The reason it's easy to prove
it is it's not asking you to do anything unusual
except click this, tip that or sign this paper so
we can count the heads and it's reassuring the clients.
But it's not the big thing. If you hand someone
an idea that's larger than their brand, the consequences will
(23:17):
change their life in the world. But it's very difficult
for people to justify or believe that now. But I
believe that brands and their focus and their nourishment will
come back full because digital isn't I hope so, because
the digital cannot be the only way to judge the
success of a brand just can't be well. Of course,
(23:40):
sales are, you know, but in the last two years
with COVID, a lot of things went haywire. That's so true,
and advertising left the pages of magazines. Well we all
want now we're cautious in a way that's detrimental. So um,
if you were focused on proving in your work works,
(24:00):
you can guarantee it'll be obvious and simple. But I
mean the whole thing that has catapulted you into more
experiences and opportunities than you have ever seen is because
there aren't too many full fledged, beautifully mannered, many textured
brands out there, and we were thirsty for those experiences.
(24:23):
So here you are at the top of your game,
not running only Ogilvy. But then you were also given
the CEO job at J Walter Thompson. Now how could
you manage two agencies like that and by the same
(24:44):
parent company? Right? The thing is I grew up at J.
Walter Thompson, so they knew me there, and they were
having a dearth of opportunity, and I agreed to go
in after I left and retired from Ogilvie and there
was a fabulous woman running Overvie, Shelly Lazarus. They were
in good shape, so I agreed to take this interimal role.
(25:05):
And I have to tell you we did some good.
I helped them get some business, I helped structure some things,
but they were changing the CEO. That wasn't a good
solution for me. I think when you have done all
these things in a most comprehensive way, it's hard to
do anything part time. But then you were married, you
got you had your new husband building art dealer, and
(25:27):
then you get a call from Washington. I was on
the board of gulf Stream Aeronautics, and just like your board,
I tended toward um privately held companies like Jay Crew
and Martha Stewart Living and gulf Stream, which was owned
by Forceman Little on the board were the most stunning
group of men in the planet, all planning to enter politics.
(25:50):
But Coen Pow was my seat mate. Donald Rumsfeld was
in the room and not one of those people, um
Michael over Penskey. Well sometimes they did. Nobody talked anyway.
Teddy did all the talking, but was a wonderful experience.
The day that George Bush, George w got in on
the skin, I would I'm not particularly political at this
(26:14):
point in my life. I am just really making it
through the tunnel of evolution out of advertising into marriages.
Both Cole and Pale and Donald Romsfeld made me a
job offer in the new administration, which was well for
for Donald Romsfeld. I think he was I never actually
understood it, but it was sort of like the number
(26:35):
one spokesperson or the Pentagon. That's actually not my forte.
That's a mouthpiece job, and it takes a lot of
tap dancing. I don't know how to do. And I'm
not interested in reading speeches that probably were written for you. Yes,
that was not based Yeah, and pal Gay he didn't
understand the job either. Is um diplomacy as practiced in
(26:59):
the stage department had some transfers from the old U
s I A. And when I read the charter, I thought,
I've been trending my whole life to do this job.
It is to build mutual understanding between the United States
and the rest of the people in the world. Imagine
an assignment. I was crazy to do that. That fits
so well with your experience, because that's what you were
(27:21):
doing always, every single day you were you were fitting
a product to the people. You were fitting uh, some
idea to the people. And here you are fitting America
to the people. It sounded good on paper. It's really
hard to execute, for one thing, just as an asside
in case you're all headed this way. Agreeing to be
(27:44):
a presidential appointee means you have to have top security,
which means they go through your life in a painful way.
Lawyers are all over your books and your stocks and
your finances. In your history. You had to give up
all your stocks. I had to lay them in a
safe way. So I went to see Robert Strauss, the
godfather to all the presidents. I said, Bob, I don't
(28:04):
want to do this. I thought it sounded awful, and
he said, honey, you've gone too far. They'll they'll find
something wrong with you if you step out now. And
I left. They're not convinced by him. And just like
I recommend to all the people I've ever worked with,
find out why you're doing something. What's your motivation for
this job? I was walking down the street and I realized,
(28:26):
wait a minute, my brothers served in the service. I
am just being asked to serve. Of course I'm doing it.
And from then on I didn't look back. And then
Charlotte was given the Middle East to uh well, nine
eleven gave us the Middle and that was on our
watch changed everything, And that you found it extremely difficult. Well,
(28:49):
the thing I think is worth mentioning is that in business, Martha,
you know these things. We know that performance and profits
and sales as is an agreed goal, and also the
well being of the people in the harmony of your team,
and so on. It's all comparatively straightforward, but when you
go into government. I had lots of dirty tricks played
(29:11):
on me, and I was shocked because we're in nine eleven.
We're trying to do the largest possible thing. And what
happened is if you don't share an ideology with a
particular group, they hope you fail. It's nothing in between,
and the degree of the ruthlessness shook me up a little.
They're used to. I remember when you when you were
(29:33):
going through that entire period of wondering should I stay
in public service or not, and you decided finally that
it was you just had to get out. Once I
got the briefing on why we were invading Iraq, the
idea of trying to build mutual understanding while we were
on the warpath was not even possible. And privately, I
(29:53):
have to say I didn't believe in the briefing, and
it's hard you can't say that this is what I
learned in the State Department. Every newspaper and television show
wanted me to talk about while I was right, and
they wanted me to out, and it would have been
wonderful to do because I didn't like some of the
people making that decision. I didn't like their decisions, rather
(30:14):
not them. But the truth is I learned, just like
Coen pal did you send soldiers into the war, You're
not going to diminish their purpose in going. So that's
nothing I could write about. What's been your most amazing
experience in your life so far? Thank you for so far.
It's interesting. I was always aware that I would have
(30:37):
a hard time retiring because i've My idea was George
Bernard Shaw's quote, I want to be handed a mighty task.
I don't want to be a sniveling little person on
the side begging someone to help me, or that's a paraphrase.
But anyway, I was thrust forward and most of it
was exceptionally rewarding. And then the government job was over
(30:59):
the top and very complicated for me, but my learning
curve was immense. So I think the challenge then becomes
how do you shift gears from online power? And I
found it by coming out of I hadn't looked up
since nine eleven and Washington. I look up and I
see a professor's written a book Women Don't Ask, And
(31:22):
Jack Welch wrote a book glorifying men in business to
the exclusion of any woman who ever lived, which really
ticked me off. And I like and admire him, but
I didn't think there was anything operating. So I decided
that I had better participate in sharing what you and
I learned in some way that would be very actionable.
(31:42):
So I wrote a book, which I don't It was
more of a textbook. I'd Rather Be in Charge by
Charlotte Bears. That is not the best title, is it
like that? Well? I wanted to say I'd rather you
be in charge, but um, and I'll never forget Billy,
a friend of ours, a publisher, he said, you should
(32:03):
have said I'd rather be on top A man's interpretation
of life. Well, this is what I wrote as the
market blurb on the back. Charlotte Beers is captivating, persuasive, charming, disarming, eloquent, substantive, successful, modest, strategic, capable, determined, convincing.
(32:26):
Enough said, read this book to learn how to be
in charge? And uh, and really it does help and
it has helped many, many, many women be in charge.
But that's a very beautiful list of things to be
accused of. Well, those are Those are great and accurate
adjectives for Charlotte Beers and so. But why only one book?
(32:49):
I I get very upset when a person writes one book,
who's a very good, eloquent writer. By the way, So
I think you have to have to apologie, you have
to well, I'm I'm actually on another kind of book. Um.
I have been inspired by some of the new shorter versions,
not short in totality, but there's a skill to extrapolating
(33:14):
out of your experiences and the people you've witnessed, pieces
of life that other people can use. I'm on it now.
I don't know how to fall so in a short sentence,
what makes a great leader? There is no way a
great leader can be heard without developing deliberately a communication skill.
(33:35):
And some people have odd ones and people adapt to it.
But by and large, you have to be able to
explain what you mean. You need to speak with clarity,
and you cannot walk away from the burden of being persuasive.
And persuasion takes emotion, and people think business talk is
clean of emotion, and it's not. The only successful moments
(33:56):
you have is when you care so much you can't
stop yourself. But you've learned how to express yourself well,
how do you define leadership? I would say leadership is
you're walking out in a path like you and I did,
with nothing clear, no frontier in front of us, no path,
and you turn around and people are following you. And
(34:18):
why do you tell women to keep their own scoreboards? Oh?
I love this well because all during the time that
I met the women after the State Department, the ones
I and I bet even today, we let people tell
us who we are. It's very comforting. Somebody pats you
on the head, they tell you you're wonderful. Usually they're
lying to some extent and you haven't worked out yourself.
(34:39):
Or they tell you you're blue, but you know you're pink.
And if you don't know your pink, you're going to
be at the mercy of that voice. So every day
and every important meeting, you do the scorekeeping, and then
people won't throw you off and you ignore what they say.
I've been ignoring what people have said about me for years.
What are some of the biggest mistakes women make in
(35:00):
the business world. I think two things. One is more controversial.
The other one is bravery is important, and bravery comes
in the form of communication skills that are not typical
for women like anger and abruptness and a certain degree
of firmness, and that strength has to be done in
(35:21):
a woman's ways. You don't copy the man doing it.
But I'm pretty sure men wouldn't take me on too
readily after I had developed my way of expressing myself.
But my second favorite one is learned to bluff. You
can't get by without bluffing. The world is complicated, there
are many forces operating, and men know a lot about bluffing.
(35:42):
When you play poker, I could play a great poker
I like. I like card games. I think we should
take up poker. I think we would learn and we
could come the next up for the next decade. I
think we should take up poker and we'll put We
won't put money on it, We'll put great meals on that.
(36:03):
I can get some really good teachers. They might be men,
but I think I know men are good teachers. But
I think I have a couple of women who are
also very good poker players. I should say that I
never had better friends and more support than I did
with the men I grew up with. I never have
worked against them. I've tried to make sure the women
are included. I'd like to see the men take courses
in leadership. Now it's a lost art. Well, it's been
(36:27):
so much fun and also very enlightening to speak with
you on this level today, Charlotte. Not that we don't
always speak on a pretty high level. We do, but
it's so nice to share your knowledge and your expertise
and and uh and your ideas with our audience. And
I'm sure that they were thrilled to hear you. Well,
when I'm in the company of someone I love and respect,
(36:49):
that's the best interview I could imagine. Before we get
tears in our eyes complimenting one another, we will stay
top up. But um, but it's been it's been a
real pleasure to speak to you and and so valuable
for our audience. Thank you very much,
Host
Martha Stewart
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