October 19, 2022 • 49 mins
The architect David Rockwell has had tremendous impact on the way that many people encounter spaces. Anyone who has walked through the restored Grand Central Terminal, eaten at a Nobu restaurant, or watched the 81st and 82nd Oscars, has experienced his work. He designed the original Nobu and helped expand that brand globally, shifting the look and feel of luxury dining in the process. Martha has visited many of the hundreds of restaurants David has designed, and talks to him here about about her favorites, his Tony-award winning theatrical set design work, and David's secret to creating a terrazzo ceiling.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I do think restaurants are, you know, this kind of
space in which people get to come together and have
these very memorable experiences. So I am a student of
what makes them work. David Rockwell has had tremendous impact
on the way that many people encounter spaces. His work
(00:23):
ranges from the restoration of Grand Central Terminal to a
pop up venue for Ted, to the Global Novau brand
and the Oscars. He has designed two seventy five restaurants
and the sets for seventy five Broadway and Off Broadway shows.
He is the first architect to win a Tony and
two Emmy Awards. It's a pleasure to be here in
(00:46):
your Rockwell Group headquarters recording my podcast today. David, thank
you for coming. It's so nice And I was here
once before. I remember judging uh an architect's ginger bread contests.
I remember it was very fun to see what real
architects come up with in the design of gingerbread. Well,
(01:08):
it's also interesting having you at the judge who brought
some rigor and got e into full attention under construction. Yeah,
it was a lot of fun. And just this year,
there we go again making gingerbread for a new TV
show Martha Cooks and and we made a giant replica
of my stable, my three building stable in Bedford. Um
(01:28):
and it really is kind of complicated and uh and
it helps to have a good dough and good icing.
Was it all edible? Every part of yes, all except
for the pins that hold the the the walls together,
the corners. But you have done just an incredible incredib
I feel like I've been in so many of your
(01:51):
spaces over the years. Uh And I know I have
actually when I read your the lists of the things
that you have designed, create, did and and uh and
envisioned all over all over the world. It's just incredible.
Number one, UM No bo Restaurants. That's my most most
(02:11):
memorable remembrance of all your stuff because I used to
go to Nobu's first restaurant, I remember, and we had
our party there. He allowed us to do the first
party at the original No Boo and it was such
a beautiful party. Um And it was so incredible that
(02:33):
Matsuhisa himself, Matsuhisa San, would allow, you know, just an
author to come in there and and take over the
space and and serve delicious Japanese food to a bunch
of booklovers. But he has always been so generous. And
you designed a space that nobody had ever seen before
in New York, not in a restaurant. And how did
(02:56):
you meet no Bo? I met no Bo because I
was designing an event for City Meals and Wheels. I
wasn't yet a board member, but I was designing an
event called Feast to the Many Moons. So that was
a long time ago. It's a long time ago. I
think the original Nobu opened in ninety four, Um, so
must have been you know, I say it's a long
(03:17):
time ago, it's not that long ago. And you really
think about it's a twenty something years ago right in
restaurant world, it's a long Yes, it is a long
time and uh. And that Nobu incorporated Your designed for
many many, many different kinds of surfaces, many kinds of materials,
and a restaurant. Many had never been seen before in
(03:37):
a restaurant. And it was astonishing to all of us
that that you would take so many diverse objects and
materials and create a very beautiful, cohesive interior for a
Japanese man who had learned how to cook and peruve
exactly and came to New York with his idea of
(03:59):
new Japanese these cuisine. And you know, Noba and I
have become nice friends over the years. Even went to
Japan with him and visited many many sites in Japan
and went to the Skigi fish market with him and
got my sushi knife carved with my name in it.
But but he is now has how many restaurants, thirty something?
(04:21):
And you have you designed everyone? We've designed most of them.
He has a couple of fairs now and then with
other people, but were the main designer. And you know,
really it was like meeting a brother when I met him,
and when I proposed the design be based on his narrative,
he was very humble about that. He didn't understand how
you would base the design on the narrative. But you
(04:42):
mentioned Peru, So the combination of South American colors along
with sort of Japanese rigor um, the idea of texture
and surfaces that related to his fish, the idea of
a three star restaurant with the table cloths. We're all
ideas we developed with him, and and he's been the
most generous collaborator. Well, then you went to UM in
(05:06):
New York, who's first restaurant I think in the United
States was in Los Angeles, right, Yeah, I eat there.
I do not miss, do not miss a visit to
that restaurant when I go to l a ever um
and it is hard to get into. And so if
you're going to plan a trip to Los Angeles, please
make your reservations ahead of time. It's totally worth it.
(05:28):
But it is totally worth it. And in New York,
just going from the first restaurant is now closed. Yeah,
it was on Hudson Streets and it had next door
Nobu next to it, Yes, and those moved together down
to Fulton Street, right. And I love that restaurant too,
which is downstairs in a beautiful building, and that is
(05:51):
a beautiful space. It's in an incredible space. My grandchildren
love going there. And it was a real challenge because
downstairs has no windows and upstairs is mark right, which
is what's the set for the movie Wall Street, those
giant stone columns. So so, but you did an amazing
job down there because it seems airy and light with
(06:11):
very high ceilings and then low ceilings, and so it
was a total labor of love where they were willing
to just let me embrace every material, every texture, and
because I think nothing's arbitrary about Nobu's food. It's combinations
of textures and flavors. Right. But then you street, Now,
that's the craziest restaurant in New York, the craziest, one
(06:34):
of the most profitable and largest grossing restaurants ever, ever,
ever in New York City. Downstairs as you walk in
right on fifty seventh Street, a bar that is packed
like sardines every single night. That would be a very
very productive bar. Well, that was a challenging space because
all the space is up eighteen feet, so people walk
(06:57):
up eighteen feet of stairs to get to a second floor.
As it was a skiware shop, so the ceilings are
only eleven feet upstairs. Upstairs, so that you look at
the ceiling and you see these rings. You see rings
of different sizes everywhere, and then you think, what are
those rings made out of? There? All different? Then you
(07:17):
realize that they're slices of bamboo. Said, is that a
necrylic that they're sitting in? Toronto? It's a very soft
material and a very hard material. Boy on the ceiling,
how do you put a Toronto on the ceiling? Well,
so here's a secret to that. Okay, I want to know.
I wanted all of David's secrets because they are amazing. Um. So,
(07:39):
the first thing we did is the wicker material that
wraps the whole restaurant is avoca. It's a wicker wrapped
around metal and we designed it with three D software,
but it was bent by hand. And from that that
that holds the toronto. We found this great torozo maker
and said we'd like to embed bamboo in the trotto
(08:01):
and then polish it so it looked like the cross
section of a sushi roll. Yeah, that's what That's what
it looks like. Many sushi rolls, hundreds of them. Yeah,
it's one of my favorite materials. But is it cement
or some other material? Well, here, he won't tell me.
He will not tell me what I'm going to tell
you the secret. Do you want to tell anyone? I
will not, although we're in the radio evidently podcast radio
(08:22):
so old god. Uh. It is trotso on the wall
on the ceiling. It's a high resolution photo, a photo,
so it's just like people glued up there. But the
trotso on the back of the eye. But the trotso
on the back wall is real so you make that
(08:42):
connection you want to believe. Oh my gosh, it is.
It's incredible really and and and affordable, and it typifies
I think what makes dining such an important social activity
is there's lots of boosts where you can have your
intimacy with your group, but you really feel like you're
part of this bigger social You go in there, You
(09:05):
go in and sit down, and I usually get a
booth because no bo knows me, So I get a booth,
one of those nice open booths that you have to well,
everybody has to walk by you because they're going to
go to the restrooms. Nice booths are open to the
sushi bar in the other Yes, and I love it there.
And I love the sushi bar too because if you're
private there with your backs to everything, and uh and
(09:26):
it was. It's an incredible, incredible design for a restaurant
that accommodates hundreds of people every single night in one
of the noisiest but yet very congenial locations in New
York City. Yeah, and that's what your restaurants are. I
think they are very congenial. And I've been to they
(09:46):
keep track, nob nobles. People are very good. They keep
track of where you go and where you've been. So
I remember going to I think I was in Dubai
or someplace. And then and then the next next week,
I was in the Bahamas and they knew that I
had been in Dubai and they said, oh, welcome. Did
you go to the one in Abu Dhaba which is
(10:07):
a ground up building sits off to the four. And
then then the week after that was in the Bahamas
and I guess in in Atlantis. That's right, Yeah, that
was fantastic. And then you come back to New York.
They know you've been in the Bahamas. They're very they're
very good. But but it's um. But each one is unique,
Each restaurant is unique, and yet you still know that
(10:30):
you're in a David Rockwell space once you know, once
you know that it's David Rockwell. We try to find
local artists and craftsmen wherever we go so that there
is a local element that you know. It doesn't need
to be something that a customer would know about, but
it just embeds something a little bit unique in each one. Well,
it's uh, so we're restaurants. The first thing that you
(10:52):
started to designing, tell us your background a little bit.
Where did you go to architecture school? I went up
so I went to high school in Guadalahara, Mexico. My
family moved when I was twelve, so I had that
love of spectacle and vibrancy, and I thought what I
was going to study with theater? My mom was in theater,
but then I was in Vaudeville. She wasn't vauda well,
(11:13):
she toured that and in Costello she did, Oh my gosh,
how light a picture her doing that? How lucky? I
loved Cacella so much, so I was brought up with
this love of theater. But in Mexico I started to
get very interested in architecture. The marketplace in Guadalajara is
one of the great marketplaces in the world. It's a
(11:33):
modernist structure, colorful and noisy, delicious and everything. Yeah. Um.
But I ended up getting more interested in architecture and
went to Syracuse University, which was I mas a lucky
guest that architecture was what really worked for me. And
I was near three of my brothers who were in
New York. I knew I wanted to say connected the theater,
(11:54):
so Syracuse did that, and then I spent one year
in London at the Architectural Siation, which really reignited my
love of theater as it's so accessible there. Uh. And
then worked for a number of firms, different kinds of architects,
recording studiosum and I had designed something called that I
(12:16):
don't think you'll remember heard about because it was a
fast blip called the Wildcats Saloon, which was the crazy
Horse Saloon from Paris coming to New York. Where was
that East fifty four? And I was the junior architect
on the team, but I was running at working for
another firm, and I got approached by a restaurant tour
(12:38):
who owned sushi wanted to create sushi z in, the
first sushi zen, and so I ate the first sushi
sushi z. I loved it. I did what I tell
young architects not to do. I always tell them, don't
put every idea you ever had into your first project.
But I just was so in love with that opportunity.
We created this long silk mural, the Donna Granada from
(13:01):
Santa Fe. Appa made for me great so that in
eight four I just decided to go into business. And
you mentioned Noble. Noble was a true breakthrough project from
me and and and obviously it's it's historic because everyone
runs to see the New Noble no matter where it is,
because your creativity just is on display in every single
(13:26):
aspect of those restaurants. And then I was lucky enough
about twenty years ago to work back into doing theater.
I spent four or five years through sketching for directors,
developing ideas, and then Jordan's Raw offered me my first
Broadway show. Dear Jordan's it wasn't he like a baby?
(13:48):
Then he was a baby. It was his first Broadway
show too, which one it was The Rocky horror show
Circle in the Square. Oh, I forget that he did that.
How old was he when he did that? Like seventeen
years thing? I think he had not gotten. He went
back to Dartmouth for an NBA after that. He was
very young, very young, So that very perceptive. But that
was a really great show, The Rocky. We would go
(14:12):
on Friday nights to see it because right when I
was at high school and and I guess in college too,
and go and see that fantastic show. It was such
a gift because in my mind I thought my first
Broadway show would be the cherry Worth Shooter some more obscure,
but I have. I mean, this is kind of interesting
(14:32):
to me. I've never really thought of Broadway as a
piece of architecture, and yet it's all about architecture. I
thought it was a set designer that designed the set.
So do you work with a set designer? No, I
do set designer. So you are the set designer, but
you are also the architect. So subsequent to that, I've
studied set design and I had worked for an amazing
(14:54):
Broadway lighting designer named Roger Morgan, who I apprenticed with.
And so in that case, I think there's so many
links between set design and architecture um and the kind
of architecture I'm interesting. And and when you go to
see a show. I just saw m Jay Michael Jackson,
amazing show it is, and the set is really interesting,
(15:15):
really interesting, and it changes so quickly and frequently that
I was I was thought a lot about the set
during that show, because that's one of the best parts
of the show except for the music and the and
the lead it's like and the dancing. But the music
was very loud, and I took two young girls with me,
my granddaughter and her friend and too loud. It was
(15:36):
too loud for them because they you know, they're young
and they're sensitive, but you know what, they were close,
but they loved the show. What he I'll tell you
an interesting point of overlap. Every moment in MJ that
made an impact on you required collaboration between choreographer, tech
uh director, set designer, lighting designer, video designer. It's such
(16:00):
intense collaboration and for me, it's one of the ways
I approach restaurants in public spaces through collaboration and silence.
I mean, in a show like that, everything is to
move silently and predictably and predictably and not fall down
in the middle of everything. But it's the ultimate example
of experience. It's temporal, but it lives with you forever,
(16:21):
and it requires real collaboration. And you've worked on so
many shows, how like how many shows now? Do you
think a lot of shows like fifty more on Broadway?
Probably twenty five or thirty original productions. And your favorite
show of all time that you're designed my favorite child? Yeah,
Um well, I would probably say hair Spray because it
(16:44):
was such an unexpected joy to be invited to do
that and then get a tour of Baltimore by John
Waters and get get the most eccentric view. Uh. And
it was just an explosive, amazing experience, I'll o. We
just finished designing the sets for Into the Woods, which
is on Broadway right now. I have yet to see that,
(17:06):
and I cannot wait. I'm thinking I'm taking my granddaughter
because she's theater oriented. But it's a very simple set
of very powerful so each one I had to operate.
You have, like which one I did Carmen co production
with Houston and San Francisco with Rob Ashford directing. Fantastic
(17:27):
and any movies. I did one movie, uh, and it
was an unlikely movie. It was Team America, which was
the South Park team Matt Stone and Trey Parker, all
done with marionettes, and I got a phone call asking
if I wanted to do the sets and I said absolutely,
so once a week I was in l A and
(17:48):
it was it was amazing. I like experiences I haven't
done before. Like you, well, you're so creative and and
it and it shows in your work. The theater is
(18:08):
such an intense and you don't have much time to
work on a thing, you know. I'm in tech rehearsals
right now for a new Broadway show called The Beautiful Noise,
which is Neil Diamond's music and the story of his
development and beautiful music. And did he have a mean father?
He didn't have a mean father, because most of these,
(18:30):
most of these auto or biographical Broadway musicals, it's always
the mean fathers caring mother. And that's that that part
of the story you can just forget for me. And
then I want to I want to see the music
and the dance and that and the real real Michael Jackson,
you know, and it's so it's so funny. Yeah, theater.
(18:51):
Theater is very demanding that way. Um, but it's it
pays off in for me. It's a master class in
learning from other poland. Um. So most of us who
think about architecture never envisioned our architect going off and
designing a Broadway musical, play a movie. We'd never never
(19:12):
think about that. We want our architects to build our
to design our homes, or what about designing plates and
flat where architects can do that? So why not Broadway show? Well,
that's right, why not? And museums? Have you worked on
a museum yet? I have worked on several museums. We
just finished an incredible experience for the Smithsonian. It was
(19:35):
a one year pop up about the future called the
Futures in the Arts and Industry Building, which is the
oldest building on the Sunny campus. This incredible brick, extravagant
of the building and it was a one year pop
up all about the future. Um, what are the museums
(19:56):
have we done? We did the museum called the Disney
Family Foundation in the presidio, working with Walt Disney's family.
Kind of an amazing experience and where we were working
out of the museums at the moment. But I like,
I like, you have how many people working with you?
How many architects work here at the firm? Around three
(20:17):
d people work here? It is and do you have
the whole building? We have four floors. Okay, we're on
lower fifth Avenue Avenue. We're a Union Square, well square,
Union Square West. I was in a car but not
paying attention to her. I knew it was Union Square
with the market across the street, and um, so your
Union Square West and what cross street between fourteen and fifteen.
(20:41):
So it's a busy place, very busy outside and very
busy inside. It's so incredible to see this neighborhood has
transformed so much. It really is, you know, I think
a lot of great experiences come from long relationships, like
Union Square Cafe, which was on sixteenth Street. Did you
do that? I did the new one? Yeah, And I
(21:02):
was Danny's friend for twenty years before that moved. And
sometimes I don't know if you feel this way, but
a little bit of fear and a project helps motivate
getting the senses tuned up. So in that case, I
didn't want to be the person who killed Union Square
Cafe when it moved. Um. But but you didn't. I
did not know at all. I like the Union Square
(21:24):
Cafe a lot. I miss it here. But there's breads,
amazing bread. Isn't that great? Amazing bread? And so your
neighborhood is hopping. Um. So so being an architect with when,
how did how did your firm grow? Because this is this,
I mean there are a lot of architects firms that
that have you know, twenty three people working for them.
(21:46):
This is a monster in terms of architecture. Um, it
grew really organically over time. There was no It's not
like my plan was to have a small studio or
a big studio. But I was very much about curiosity
and grabbing new projects and trying new things. And as
we kind of aggregated, really, I guess or my core
(22:11):
interest early on was hospitality, both in public spaces and restaurants.
And is our studios grown it's working on projects or
hospitality helps inform what an airport should be, or what
a children's hospital should be, or what a museum should be.
So I think as we've taken those different project types,
(22:34):
it's just created natural growth. And I got two amazing partners,
and it's just been unexpectedly. And your partners or architects,
they're both architection and you're known as the Rockwell Group.
We are um any of your family members and they
in the business. They are not not yet any any
(22:56):
budding architects in the family. I have a twenty year
old daughter and a two year old son. And my
daughter it's interested in art. I don't know about architecture yet. Well,
architecture just such a nice way to spend your time creating,
as you say, the correct spaces for a variety of
(23:17):
of livelihoods, of of living styles, and and to focus
on hospitality, and you were you were focused on hospitality
just at the right time when it started to really exturgeon,
really virgin and and it's just it's incredible to see
what has happened, these new buildings going up. I mean,
you did work. You collaborated on the ship, which is
(23:39):
part of Hudson Yards. Hudson Yards opened right before COVID hit,
which was a terrible time. My office was at in
the Hudson River, in the old start Le high belieing
so I do that, yes, And I watched I watched
Hudson Yards emerge from the train yards below this amazing
(24:01):
complex of fantastic buildings, um an unfortunate upside down truncated
pyramid which has been Is it still closed? It looks
like it's still closed. Yeah. But you know, I think
what defines New York and neighborhoods is really the ground floor.
And it's always been the floor. I guess when I
first came to New York, I saw these towers and thinking, God,
(24:21):
there's people living at every one of those windows. But
what gives it its life is the public realm of
the ground floor, the access to the building. What's on
that first floor of the stores. That's why the was was,
you know, extraordinary experience to be a part of working
with the lascafideo renfro And and Dan dr H and
Alex Poot's um to create a building that could expand
(24:44):
and contract depending on its needs. That the shed has
a small ground floor restaurant and they're called Cedric's named
after Cedric Price, who was a British architect who had
an idea called the Fun Palace that never happened, but
it was a seminal thought piece that affected every architect
about transformable arts buildings. And Danny Meyer operates it and
(25:08):
it is a great place. Just never eaten there? Should
I go eat? You have to go eat. That's right
next to Jose's Market. Oh, I love Jose's Markets. Jose
Andres has a lot of places in there. And you
just worked on a restaurant with Jose. I just did.
Se Tenia Uh such an amazing man and such a
great inspiration and deep thinker and doer totally and has
(25:31):
been doing it for ever since I've known him. He's
been He's been on the west coast of Florida for
the last couple of weeks, serving meals to all those
poor people who have lost their homes, lost their livelihoods,
everything down in Fort Myers and uh and in the
in the coastal islands. Their total inspiration. He's he is incredible.
I'm gonna think I'm going to see him later this week.
(25:52):
I think he'll be back in New York. But um,
he did you work on his restaurant in Spain? Too? No?
We worked. The first project I did for him was
Leo in Las Vegas in the Cosmopolitan, which was fantastic.
We wanted to do this big open pia station and
there were so many reasons why people said no, you know,
(26:14):
the ventilation people, to code people and open fire people. Yeah.
So he and I pushed it through and it's now.
Of course one of the features that attracts people. People
are attracted to kind of energy sources, and no one
knows that better than Jose. No, he's incredible. But you're
I know a restaurant in Las Vegas, which hotel in
(26:37):
the in the Paris Hotel, So there's a Nobu right
across the hall. I will come with it. That's right.
Did you do that that restaurant? We did all the
nobles and then there's a big Noble where we go
to eat because when we want, which is a noble
hotel in the In the Nobu Hotel, we did the whole.
That was their first hotel, and it was an interesting
(26:57):
thing because I based the hotel on the notion of
Ohma cosse, where you're trusting the chef. You know that
idea of there is an actual guiding intelligence and a
host that's that's helping you. So it's not just anonymous luxury.
But I like his hotels. I like all the rooms
and and they're very it's very different. It's a very
different experience. It is sort of like going to Kyoto. Yeah,
(27:22):
very modified way. You know, it's incredible. We're working on
a project I'd love you to look at because it's
um it's your city Harvest in Sunset Park. Were since
at Park Brooklyn, Okay, So they're moving their whole operation
to this amazing building. You've been you've been a member
of that board ever since meals and wheels have been Okay,
(27:45):
City Harvest. I got a call out of the blue
from any At Architects and from and Eric Repair and
the Chef's Council. I think it's called Eric Repair. Jeffreys
and caring. Martin Murphy wanted a display kitchen and event
space on the top, so that's what I designed. But
the kitchen is meant to be kind of residential in scale,
(28:09):
but kind of performance. When there's event in the room,
you could slide open the walls and the kitchen could
be part of that performance. Well, you're you know how
to show things off very well. And I will go
see that that that sounds interesting. So are they're going
to have chef's cooking there? And they are. I did
tell Eric my my dream is that I get to
(28:29):
be a sush chef the first time he cooks in
the kitchen. He's the best pair. Who is the chef
owner of the Bernadine here in New York City? Did
you work on his restaurant? I did not know that.
I get to go. It's wonderful. Kinky Boots another one
(28:57):
of your very big successes on Broadway. Is that fun
to work on? It was a lot of fun to
work on. I had worked with the director before I
knew Jerry Mitchell. Jordan's mom, Daryl Waffe, was a producer
um And what was great about it is it's kind
of a Cinderella story or an unlikely story where Lola
(29:19):
meets Charlie, who's the third generation shoemaker, and they kind
of complete each other in a way you don't expect.
So the set is very much informed by how you
make boots. All the machines are actually quite realistic. There's
a kind of grittiness to it, and then the things
that make the boots become a kind of explosion of
(29:41):
color with Lola shows up, so that treadmills become these
dance places, the walls become milan. So the limit of
um let's make it super gritty and realistic, and then
how that explode with color was a lot of fun.
And Sydney Lauper, did she have anything to do? She
was amazing. Well, Harvey, I had worked with Befour on Hairspray,
(30:06):
and you know, I had fallen in love with him.
He was just the most generous character in Cindy I
had worked with. The first year I became chairman of DIFFA,
which is as design industry foundation fighting AIDS. My brother
had passed away from AIDS and three I felt so
(30:27):
devastated by any ability to help, and DIFFA came along
and kind of pointed to creativity. Is this powerful way
to make a difference. Anyway, I did my first event
for DEFA at Lincoln Center and Cindy Lauper performed there,
so we had a long history and she was very
involved in every detail in Kinky Boots in two thousand
(30:51):
and sixteen. Here here we go, an architect wins a
Tony for she loves me, UM and us where you
met your current amore is that it's true fabulous, UM,
and you created gorgeous art. New vote for the set
for the show, UM was that a challenging build. It
(31:15):
was just a thrilling, full out a love story UM.
Starting with Scott Ellis that directored someone I had worked
with before, and the lyricist was Sheldon Harnick who's now
ven and he wrote the lyrics to Schiddle around the Roof,
which was the first show I ever saw. And I
(31:37):
did meet an amazing woman named Jane Krakowski on the set,
So it was just the one of a kind thrill.
And then the as we started to get into it,
I had this notion that the flat the perfumer rate.
We looked at a lot of flower shops as well,
but this performer ry in in Budapest, could open not
(32:00):
and go from kind of the outer lines of these
people to the inner lives. So it was it was
a complicated build, but it was total total joy. Did
you go to Budapest just did what? What flowers were
they using? Well, it was it's a perfumery. But in
looking at research, I found some flower shops that had
the density of product in the window that I wanted
(32:23):
to get with these perfume bottles, and all the perfume
bottles were customated for the show, like three fifty different pieces.
So it was a lot of complicated adventure. So unber Broadway.
Did you go to see Broadway to see the competition
all the time? You do? What was your last favorite
favorite show? With The last show I saw was a
(32:43):
few days ago. I saw the Piano Lesson, which was wonderful, incredible,
really powerful um And tonight I'm going to a one
night only benefit reading that we designed of the Pirates
of Penzance. How fantastic. So we're reading what's a reading invoice?
It's a staged reading, so it's a galot of people
(33:06):
are paying money, They've had one week to work on it. Uh,
the band will be on stage, so somebody's singing. They're
all the cast of singing, and they'll dance and do
one or two production numbers. But it's a way to
test out material. That's that's so much what we I
think we did Pirates depenzens in high school. Our drama club,
(33:26):
drama club. Very oh yeah, very complicated. Um, lyrics, very complicated.
You gotta sing very fast, very fast. It's like a
record on speed. Yeah. So back to the restaurants, because
I that's how where I first heard about you and
noticed you, noticed your work. Um, the were you surprised?
(33:50):
Were you surprised about your success in the in the
world of restaurants? I mean you're you're you are the
pre eminent designer of restaurants, it seems all over the place.
Besides Nobu and Jose Andres, who else have you designed for? Jehan,
George Jeffries, the Carrion. We're working with Simon Kim right
now from Cote Daniel Blue. Tetsuya Wakuda. Have you been
(34:13):
to his place in Las Vegas? No? Which one is
that it's called Wakuda? No, I have not been there.
Amazing Japanese chef. I will go the next visit. So
We've worked for a lot of amazing people, and you
had totally surprising, totally unexpected, and I think you know
(34:36):
my primary outlook is to stay very curious and be
open to new experiences and go to as many places
I can't. I was giving great advice in an early
internship which I think you would appreciate that ar could
had gave me a tape measure and he said, if
you go to places you like, analyze what you like
about them, analyze the quality of light, start to understand distances.
(34:58):
And I do think restaurants are, you know, this kind
of space in which people get to come together and
have these very memorable experiences. So I am a student
of what makes them work, whether that's places that just
happen on their own or places that are designed. But
I think you have to stay a student if you
(35:19):
want to stay ahead of kind of new ideas well.
I have I have a model which is learned something
new every day, which is about being a student all
the time. You really do that, and you also teach
every day. You can't teach without studying constantly. And you
your work certainly displays that. You have a lot of
pictures here, What are all these pictures in front of us.
(35:41):
This is the pictures that into the woods, which was
at en course. I don't know if you've been to
musicles that on course do but they're very limited resources.
They run for a few days or in this case
two weeks. So we had our model shot make these
miniature dimensional houses that in a very small way indicate
(36:02):
these locations. And then it opens up two this forest
and again we use dimensional These are Saunta tubes that
are laser cut so we can see open space. So
it suggests kind of the loss it into the woods
as well as these beautiful taff of light trees. And
(36:23):
the band sits at the center of all of these platforms,
not in a pit, totally visible and the audience of
the actors can move around it, so you're really in
the same space. Um. The trees can be internally lit,
so when the giant comes, the trees light and can shake.
(36:45):
That is that does that come from you? The trees,
the trees are every part of the physical thing is
from us. And if you notice the moon and the
second act, that's a light box, uh, and it lowers
as the day progresses. Movement in theater is one of
the things you don't get to do an architecture very much.
Bet or not. I don't want my house moving. Um, well,
(37:08):
this has take me Out, which is coming back to Broadway.
I did it last year at One Best revival and
I did it at the Hell and Hayes Theater, which
is the one Broadway show as an architect that I
got to renovate. So it was interesting to work in
that space. So it takes place to Richard Greenberg play
about a baseball player who comes out as gay, very
(37:31):
proud about it, and then how the world sort of
starts to collapse around him and what happens. So it
takes place in this locker room that's meant to feel
very exposed. Um and the lockers move upstage and there's
a quite famous shower scene grating in the floor and
shower comes down and they're taking showers naked in front
(37:52):
of this, you know, kind of expressing the vulnerability of
that locker room. How did you drain the water? We
drained the water in a six inch trough, which is
you had to be flat because you don't elevate the
stage or people are looking up, so sight lines are critical.
And it's recycled water and these turn and flip, and
(38:13):
on the back we have beautiful um painting that represents
playing field. And then at the very end of the play,
we have a series of dimensional lights that can come
in and other shows a shower, so the showers are
controlled individually and you can see you're getting this really
deep view of the water of the faucets and the
(38:35):
locker room. And there's not much running water on Broadway.
There is not, and there's a reason for that. So
it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. It was
a nightmare. We we had a we had a special
effects water person. We had to audition many different shower
heads and we used ones that was we started with
hardware that I was familiar with. It was really something
(38:57):
that you could adjust the flow so you had a
volume of water, but not so much that it splashed
on stage because when you have water on stage normally
you have someone clean up. There's nobody there. There's nobody
there and incredible, and then the very end of the
show has this beautiful silhouette design. I think you did
(39:17):
the Ted Auditorium in Vancouver. I did, Oh gosh, that
was something was I went there that that when that
year what year was that that was in Yeah, not
that long. But it was beautiful. It was beautiful and
it was all made out of sort of like found wood.
It was all locally sourced wood and it smelled so
(39:38):
great also like cedar or something like that, or pine
or you asked, was I was the She Loves Me
a challenging technical project the Ted Theater was. It's a
I think you gave a talk about that. Oh you did,
that's right, so that it was incredible and everybody's like
looking around because it was like Jerry built, yeah, and
(40:00):
you had to do it so quickly and then it
packs back up when it comes out. This is the
City Harvest project I mentioned. And you can see these
sliding bronze screen doors which have all the product for
the chefs can close off. This is beautiful so um
and I'm excited about that transition. And what a beautiful
kitchen and all reclaimed oak from Barnes So just given
(40:24):
City Harvest mission, we tried to use as much we
claimed as we could. Um. And this is all kind
of new work. Everybody, this is I mean, you have
to just look up online David's work, David Rockwell Group
and you'll see the most amazing assortment of fine of
fine architecture and ingenuity, because that's what this is, the civilian.
(40:47):
This maybe, at the moment, the thing that's nearest stairs
to my heart. It's a small ground up hotel on
Fortier Street. We did the Greenwich Hotel, which is a
beautiful brick building in Greenwich on fort Street. This developer
came to me and said, I'm going to put up
a small hotel teeny rooms. What brand should it be?
(41:08):
And I've been thinking for ten or fifteen years, been
seeking to Danny Meyer about it. Why isn't there a
place in the theater district that's about the theater community.
So he agreed and we created the building and also
curated a collection of three fifty pieces of theater art
that constantly rotates. So in some ways this celebrates the
(41:31):
theater artists you never get to see. You mentioned m
J the amount of people, Derrick McLean set, Natasha cats
Is lighting. All of that is made and then goes away.
So we created a series of spaces. This is the
Blue Room and all of these elements are being reset
this week. They've been up for a year, all borrowed
(41:52):
and they all come from theater. They all countries, various place.
Um in everywhere you look, there's a curate that these
photographs are changing out. They're going to be all the
sketches of the best costume design from last year from
those artists. Um. But there's one particuar of the model
(42:13):
room and then brick where is that her come from?
The brick has reclaimed direct Yeah, and this is an
outdoor terrorists and then this restaurant opens up in a
couple of weeks. Um. I don't know if you knew
Tony Walton. So Tony wrong was one of the great
designers set designers. I think he did so many English
(42:36):
English import plays and movies. He wanted Academy Awards from
Mary Poppins, I think. So when I started civilian thinking
about I went to him and I said, can you
contribute something? And he had done these beautiful drawings of
the some theaters or play bill and he had done
twelve of them, and I asked every working set designer
(42:57):
if they wanted to do another one. So every Broadway
theater is represented by a light fixture and a plaque,
so it really plays tribute to these forty one buildings.
That people don't pay much attention to. This is a
bar and a restaurant, and this is real. If you're
coming from out of town to go to a Broadway
show or a week of shows, look at look up
(43:20):
the Civilian. When does it open. It's open. It's open,
so you might be able to get a room at
the Civilian. Come stay there, and everywhere you look you'll
see the theater artists doing the rooms, the wall coverings.
So interesting. So these models of current shows all change
at their changing out that some people know every single
one of these things. The ones who are inveterate theater
goers um like you, And even the rooms have one
(43:46):
or two pieces of theater. Are in the beautiful Of
all the hotels that you've designed, which would be your
favorite to stay in? Well, it's a great question because
they think, at the end of the day, what makes
a great hotel experiences the invisible things like air conditioning
(44:07):
that's not drafty, light switch as you can dim by
the bed. I would probably say the Granwich Hotel. Yes, yeah,
I just think it's impeccably operated. We just completed or
in completing a renovation of the Book of a Tone,
which is an Addison Meisner structure. Such a beautiful structure.
(44:27):
Beautiful structure. And there's the one with a giant pool outside.
It is Oh, I did it commercial in that pool?
We had water valley in that giant did it was
so incredible And and this is and the hotel is
so impressive, so beautiful. Start restoring the whole lobby and
(44:49):
all the rooms, everything, everything in five different restaurants for
major food group. M one just opened up. So opening
up a little bit at a time. And it's one
of the rare things in architecture is to have a
long relationship with someone you're doing work over time, like
we do for Nobu. This is beautiful um. And you
(45:10):
asked about museums. This is just under construction in Miami.
It's PHOTOGRAPHISCA, which is now in New York um and
they're photo museum that is constantly doing new shows. Have
you been to the one in New York? No, not yet.
(45:30):
And it's where the restaurant Veronica is. Oh no, excuse me, Yes,
I have been there because I love that restaurant so much,
so beautiful, and it's it's downstairs, are upstairs from Veronica upstairs.
It's one of the early shows that right when it
opened in the building is incredible. It is an incredible
did you do that whole place? I did not. I
(45:51):
wish I had. There's lots of things I wish I had,
But here you are doing this. So this is right
near the Rebel Museum in Miami. It's a concrete building.
Know the inner structures concrete. These are wood fins that
are spaced out so they open up towards the middle
and create this loja in the front. Those are beautiful
(46:14):
and those beautiful. And I think in this neighborhood when
you get in the inner space is this look courtyard
that all the galleries spin off of. So it's really
very much based on the climate there with this large
scale Toronto set in a pattern that is beautiful. I
(46:34):
can't wait to go there. I love the Rebel too,
and I love her A nice visit. Yes, so incredible. Well,
it looks like you're continuing to be extremely busy. And
do you ever to go on trips? I did. I
went away for twelve days in September to Sicily in Rome.
(46:55):
Any inspiration in Sicily, oh my god, nothing but inspiration.
Is a beautiful place, beautiful, beautiful place. Um, and also
lots of new relationships. I imagine, like you, when I
go places, I'm collecting collaborators. So the floor Sebastian who
does the San Andres and the Hotel de Russian Ram,
(47:16):
he is someone who've been in touch. Well, I hope.
I'm dying to go back to Sicily, because that is
it was one of my favorite places on earthly been
there three or four times. But I was looking for
the home of Ilga Topardo um and then I'm We're
driving everywhere up in the mountains looking for this home
(47:37):
where the Leopard was written by Medusa. Did you find it?
It had been destroyed in an earthquake in nineteen sixty
five or something. Wow, was it on one of the
isolding islands? No? No, no, it was on Sicily is
on the mainland, but but up high so maybe no,
not that far out, but it was. It was destroyed
(47:59):
and in an earthquake, and so we never found it.
But it was fun looking for it. But what an
incredible island, so much, so much good stuff. And I
can't wait to see what you do there. That'll be fun. Well,
we have talked so much and uh, and I'm just
in awe of the volume and variety of the work
(48:20):
that you do, David, and you keep going and going
and going, making more and more beautiful places, places for
us to sit and eat, places for us to sit
and look at things, and places for us to stay.
And I wish you luck with all your future projects.
I'm inspired what you do that needs a lot well.
Thank you very much for speaking with us today, and
(48:43):
I'm sure our audience is going to be very inevit
of your conversation. Thank you, Thank you. At the d
I do think restaurants are, you know, this kind of
space in which people get to come together and have
these very memorable experiences. So I am a student of
what makes them work. David Rockwell has had tremendous impact
on the way that many people encounter spaces. His work
(00:23):
ranges from the restoration of Grand Central Terminal to a
pop up venue for Ted, to the Global Novau brand
and the Oscars. He has designed two seventy five restaurants
and the sets for seventy five Broadway and Off Broadway shows.
He is the first architect to win a Tony and
two Emmy Awards. It's a pleasure to be here in
(00:46):
your Rockwell Group headquarters recording my podcast today. David, thank
you for coming. It's so nice And I was here
once before. I remember judging uh an architect's ginger bread contests.
I remember it was very fun to see what real
architects come up with in the design of gingerbread. Well,
(01:08):
it's also interesting having you at the judge who brought
some rigor and got e into full attention under construction. Yeah,
it was a lot of fun. And just this year,
there we go again making gingerbread for a new TV
show Martha Cooks and and we made a giant replica
of my stable, my three building stable in Bedford. Um
(01:28):
and it really is kind of complicated and uh and
it helps to have a good dough and good icing.
Was it all edible? Every part of yes, all except
for the pins that hold the the the walls together,
the corners. But you have done just an incredible incredib
I feel like I've been in so many of your
(01:51):
spaces over the years. Uh And I know I have
actually when I read your the lists of the things
that you have designed, create, did and and uh and
envisioned all over all over the world. It's just incredible.
Number one, UM No bo Restaurants. That's my most most
(02:11):
memorable remembrance of all your stuff because I used to
go to Nobu's first restaurant, I remember, and we had
our party there. He allowed us to do the first
party at the original No Boo and it was such
a beautiful party. Um And it was so incredible that
(02:33):
Matsuhisa himself, Matsuhisa San, would allow, you know, just an
author to come in there and and take over the
space and and serve delicious Japanese food to a bunch
of booklovers. But he has always been so generous. And
you designed a space that nobody had ever seen before
in New York, not in a restaurant. And how did
(02:56):
you meet no Bo? I met no Bo because I
was designing an event for City Meals and Wheels. I
wasn't yet a board member, but I was designing an
event called Feast to the Many Moons. So that was
a long time ago. It's a long time ago. I
think the original Nobu opened in ninety four, Um, so
must have been you know, I say it's a long
(03:17):
time ago, it's not that long ago. And you really
think about it's a twenty something years ago right in
restaurant world, it's a long Yes, it is a long
time and uh. And that Nobu incorporated Your designed for
many many, many different kinds of surfaces, many kinds of materials,
and a restaurant. Many had never been seen before in
(03:37):
a restaurant. And it was astonishing to all of us
that that you would take so many diverse objects and
materials and create a very beautiful, cohesive interior for a
Japanese man who had learned how to cook and peruve
exactly and came to New York with his idea of
(03:59):
new Japanese these cuisine. And you know, Noba and I
have become nice friends over the years. Even went to
Japan with him and visited many many sites in Japan
and went to the Skigi fish market with him and
got my sushi knife carved with my name in it.
But but he is now has how many restaurants, thirty something?
(04:21):
And you have you designed everyone? We've designed most of them.
He has a couple of fairs now and then with
other people, but were the main designer. And you know,
really it was like meeting a brother when I met him,
and when I proposed the design be based on his narrative,
he was very humble about that. He didn't understand how
you would base the design on the narrative. But you
(04:42):
mentioned Peru, So the combination of South American colors along
with sort of Japanese rigor um, the idea of texture
and surfaces that related to his fish, the idea of
a three star restaurant with the table cloths. We're all
ideas we developed with him, and and he's been the
most generous collaborator. Well, then you went to UM in
(05:06):
New York, who's first restaurant I think in the United
States was in Los Angeles, right, Yeah, I eat there.
I do not miss, do not miss a visit to
that restaurant when I go to l a ever um
and it is hard to get into. And so if
you're going to plan a trip to Los Angeles, please
make your reservations ahead of time. It's totally worth it.
(05:28):
But it is totally worth it. And in New York,
just going from the first restaurant is now closed. Yeah,
it was on Hudson Streets and it had next door
Nobu next to it, Yes, and those moved together down
to Fulton Street, right. And I love that restaurant too,
which is downstairs in a beautiful building, and that is
(05:51):
a beautiful space. It's in an incredible space. My grandchildren
love going there. And it was a real challenge because
downstairs has no windows and upstairs is mark right, which
is what's the set for the movie Wall Street, those
giant stone columns. So so, but you did an amazing
job down there because it seems airy and light with
(06:11):
very high ceilings and then low ceilings, and so it
was a total labor of love where they were willing
to just let me embrace every material, every texture, and
because I think nothing's arbitrary about Nobu's food. It's combinations
of textures and flavors. Right. But then you street, Now,
that's the craziest restaurant in New York, the craziest, one
(06:34):
of the most profitable and largest grossing restaurants ever, ever,
ever in New York City. Downstairs as you walk in
right on fifty seventh Street, a bar that is packed
like sardines every single night. That would be a very
very productive bar. Well, that was a challenging space because
all the space is up eighteen feet, so people walk
(06:57):
up eighteen feet of stairs to get to a second floor.
As it was a skiware shop, so the ceilings are
only eleven feet upstairs. Upstairs, so that you look at
the ceiling and you see these rings. You see rings
of different sizes everywhere, and then you think, what are
those rings made out of? There? All different? Then you
(07:17):
realize that they're slices of bamboo. Said, is that a
necrylic that they're sitting in? Toronto? It's a very soft
material and a very hard material. Boy on the ceiling,
how do you put a Toronto on the ceiling? Well,
so here's a secret to that. Okay, I want to know.
I wanted all of David's secrets because they are amazing. Um. So,
(07:39):
the first thing we did is the wicker material that
wraps the whole restaurant is avoca. It's a wicker wrapped
around metal and we designed it with three D software,
but it was bent by hand. And from that that
that holds the toronto. We found this great torozo maker
and said we'd like to embed bamboo in the trotto
(08:01):
and then polish it so it looked like the cross
section of a sushi roll. Yeah, that's what That's what
it looks like. Many sushi rolls, hundreds of them. Yeah,
it's one of my favorite materials. But is it cement
or some other material? Well, here, he won't tell me.
He will not tell me what I'm going to tell
you the secret. Do you want to tell anyone? I
will not, although we're in the radio evidently podcast radio
(08:22):
so old god. Uh. It is trotso on the wall
on the ceiling. It's a high resolution photo, a photo,
so it's just like people glued up there. But the
trotso on the back of the eye. But the trotso
on the back wall is real so you make that
(08:42):
connection you want to believe. Oh my gosh, it is.
It's incredible really and and and affordable, and it typifies
I think what makes dining such an important social activity
is there's lots of boosts where you can have your
intimacy with your group, but you really feel like you're
part of this bigger social You go in there, You
(09:05):
go in and sit down, and I usually get a
booth because no bo knows me, So I get a booth,
one of those nice open booths that you have to well,
everybody has to walk by you because they're going to
go to the restrooms. Nice booths are open to the
sushi bar in the other Yes, and I love it there.
And I love the sushi bar too because if you're
private there with your backs to everything, and uh and
(09:26):
it was. It's an incredible, incredible design for a restaurant
that accommodates hundreds of people every single night in one
of the noisiest but yet very congenial locations in New
York City. Yeah, and that's what your restaurants are. I
think they are very congenial. And I've been to they
(09:46):
keep track, nob nobles. People are very good. They keep
track of where you go and where you've been. So
I remember going to I think I was in Dubai
or someplace. And then and then the next next week,
I was in the Bahamas and they knew that I
had been in Dubai and they said, oh, welcome. Did
you go to the one in Abu Dhaba which is
(10:07):
a ground up building sits off to the four. And
then then the week after that was in the Bahamas
and I guess in in Atlantis. That's right, Yeah, that
was fantastic. And then you come back to New York.
They know you've been in the Bahamas. They're very they're
very good. But but it's um. But each one is unique,
Each restaurant is unique, and yet you still know that
(10:30):
you're in a David Rockwell space once you know, once
you know that it's David Rockwell. We try to find
local artists and craftsmen wherever we go so that there
is a local element that you know. It doesn't need
to be something that a customer would know about, but
it just embeds something a little bit unique in each one. Well,
it's uh, so we're restaurants. The first thing that you
(10:52):
started to designing, tell us your background a little bit.
Where did you go to architecture school? I went up
so I went to high school in Guadalahara, Mexico. My
family moved when I was twelve, so I had that
love of spectacle and vibrancy, and I thought what I
was going to study with theater? My mom was in theater,
but then I was in Vaudeville. She wasn't vauda well,
(11:13):
she toured that and in Costello she did, Oh my gosh,
how light a picture her doing that? How lucky? I
loved Cacella so much, so I was brought up with
this love of theater. But in Mexico I started to
get very interested in architecture. The marketplace in Guadalajara is
one of the great marketplaces in the world. It's a
(11:33):
modernist structure, colorful and noisy, delicious and everything. Yeah. Um.
But I ended up getting more interested in architecture and
went to Syracuse University, which was I mas a lucky
guest that architecture was what really worked for me. And
I was near three of my brothers who were in
New York. I knew I wanted to say connected the theater,
(11:54):
so Syracuse did that, and then I spent one year
in London at the Architectural Siation, which really reignited my
love of theater as it's so accessible there. Uh. And
then worked for a number of firms, different kinds of architects,
recording studiosum and I had designed something called that I
(12:16):
don't think you'll remember heard about because it was a
fast blip called the Wildcats Saloon, which was the crazy
Horse Saloon from Paris coming to New York. Where was
that East fifty four? And I was the junior architect
on the team, but I was running at working for
another firm, and I got approached by a restaurant tour
(12:38):
who owned sushi wanted to create sushi z in, the
first sushi zen, and so I ate the first sushi
sushi z. I loved it. I did what I tell
young architects not to do. I always tell them, don't
put every idea you ever had into your first project.
But I just was so in love with that opportunity.
We created this long silk mural, the Donna Granada from
(13:01):
Santa Fe. Appa made for me great so that in
eight four I just decided to go into business. And
you mentioned Noble. Noble was a true breakthrough project from
me and and and obviously it's it's historic because everyone
runs to see the New Noble no matter where it is,
because your creativity just is on display in every single
(13:26):
aspect of those restaurants. And then I was lucky enough
about twenty years ago to work back into doing theater.
I spent four or five years through sketching for directors,
developing ideas, and then Jordan's Raw offered me my first
Broadway show. Dear Jordan's it wasn't he like a baby?
(13:48):
Then he was a baby. It was his first Broadway
show too, which one it was The Rocky horror show
Circle in the Square. Oh, I forget that he did that.
How old was he when he did that? Like seventeen
years thing? I think he had not gotten. He went
back to Dartmouth for an NBA after that. He was
very young, very young, So that very perceptive. But that
was a really great show, The Rocky. We would go
(14:12):
on Friday nights to see it because right when I
was at high school and and I guess in college too,
and go and see that fantastic show. It was such
a gift because in my mind I thought my first
Broadway show would be the cherry Worth Shooter some more obscure,
but I have. I mean, this is kind of interesting
(14:32):
to me. I've never really thought of Broadway as a
piece of architecture, and yet it's all about architecture. I
thought it was a set designer that designed the set.
So do you work with a set designer? No, I
do set designer. So you are the set designer, but
you are also the architect. So subsequent to that, I've
studied set design and I had worked for an amazing
(14:54):
Broadway lighting designer named Roger Morgan, who I apprenticed with.
And so in that case, I think there's so many
links between set design and architecture um and the kind
of architecture I'm interesting. And and when you go to
see a show. I just saw m Jay Michael Jackson,
amazing show it is, and the set is really interesting,
(15:15):
really interesting, and it changes so quickly and frequently that
I was I was thought a lot about the set
during that show, because that's one of the best parts
of the show except for the music and the and
the lead it's like and the dancing. But the music
was very loud, and I took two young girls with me,
my granddaughter and her friend and too loud. It was
(15:36):
too loud for them because they you know, they're young
and they're sensitive, but you know what, they were close,
but they loved the show. What he I'll tell you
an interesting point of overlap. Every moment in MJ that
made an impact on you required collaboration between choreographer, tech
uh director, set designer, lighting designer, video designer. It's such
(16:00):
intense collaboration and for me, it's one of the ways
I approach restaurants in public spaces through collaboration and silence.
I mean, in a show like that, everything is to
move silently and predictably and predictably and not fall down
in the middle of everything. But it's the ultimate example
of experience. It's temporal, but it lives with you forever,
(16:21):
and it requires real collaboration. And you've worked on so
many shows, how like how many shows now? Do you
think a lot of shows like fifty more on Broadway?
Probably twenty five or thirty original productions. And your favorite
show of all time that you're designed my favorite child? Yeah,
Um well, I would probably say hair Spray because it
(16:44):
was such an unexpected joy to be invited to do
that and then get a tour of Baltimore by John
Waters and get get the most eccentric view. Uh. And
it was just an explosive, amazing experience, I'll o. We
just finished designing the sets for Into the Woods, which
is on Broadway right now. I have yet to see that,
(17:06):
and I cannot wait. I'm thinking I'm taking my granddaughter
because she's theater oriented. But it's a very simple set
of very powerful so each one I had to operate.
You have, like which one I did Carmen co production
with Houston and San Francisco with Rob Ashford directing. Fantastic
(17:27):
and any movies. I did one movie, uh, and it
was an unlikely movie. It was Team America, which was
the South Park team Matt Stone and Trey Parker, all
done with marionettes, and I got a phone call asking
if I wanted to do the sets and I said absolutely,
so once a week I was in l A and
(17:48):
it was it was amazing. I like experiences I haven't
done before. Like you, well, you're so creative and and
it and it shows in your work. The theater is
(18:08):
such an intense and you don't have much time to
work on a thing, you know. I'm in tech rehearsals
right now for a new Broadway show called The Beautiful Noise,
which is Neil Diamond's music and the story of his
development and beautiful music. And did he have a mean father?
He didn't have a mean father, because most of these,
(18:30):
most of these auto or biographical Broadway musicals, it's always
the mean fathers caring mother. And that's that that part
of the story you can just forget for me. And
then I want to I want to see the music
and the dance and that and the real real Michael Jackson,
you know, and it's so it's so funny. Yeah, theater.
(18:51):
Theater is very demanding that way. Um, but it's it
pays off in for me. It's a master class in
learning from other poland. Um. So most of us who
think about architecture never envisioned our architect going off and
designing a Broadway musical, play a movie. We'd never never
(19:12):
think about that. We want our architects to build our
to design our homes, or what about designing plates and
flat where architects can do that? So why not Broadway show? Well,
that's right, why not? And museums? Have you worked on
a museum yet? I have worked on several museums. We
just finished an incredible experience for the Smithsonian. It was
(19:35):
a one year pop up about the future called the
Futures in the Arts and Industry Building, which is the
oldest building on the Sunny campus. This incredible brick, extravagant
of the building and it was a one year pop
up all about the future. Um, what are the museums
(19:56):
have we done? We did the museum called the Disney
Family Foundation in the presidio, working with Walt Disney's family.
Kind of an amazing experience and where we were working
out of the museums at the moment. But I like,
I like, you have how many people working with you?
How many architects work here at the firm? Around three
(20:17):
d people work here? It is and do you have
the whole building? We have four floors. Okay, we're on
lower fifth Avenue Avenue. We're a Union Square, well square,
Union Square West. I was in a car but not
paying attention to her. I knew it was Union Square
with the market across the street, and um, so your
Union Square West and what cross street between fourteen and fifteen.
(20:41):
So it's a busy place, very busy outside and very
busy inside. It's so incredible to see this neighborhood has
transformed so much. It really is, you know, I think
a lot of great experiences come from long relationships, like
Union Square Cafe, which was on sixteenth Street. Did you
do that? I did the new one? Yeah, And I
(21:02):
was Danny's friend for twenty years before that moved. And
sometimes I don't know if you feel this way, but
a little bit of fear and a project helps motivate
getting the senses tuned up. So in that case, I
didn't want to be the person who killed Union Square
Cafe when it moved. Um. But but you didn't. I
did not know at all. I like the Union Square
(21:24):
Cafe a lot. I miss it here. But there's breads,
amazing bread. Isn't that great? Amazing bread? And so your
neighborhood is hopping. Um. So so being an architect with when,
how did how did your firm grow? Because this is this,
I mean there are a lot of architects firms that
that have you know, twenty three people working for them.
(21:46):
This is a monster in terms of architecture. Um, it
grew really organically over time. There was no It's not
like my plan was to have a small studio or
a big studio. But I was very much about curiosity
and grabbing new projects and trying new things. And as
we kind of aggregated, really, I guess or my core
(22:11):
interest early on was hospitality, both in public spaces and restaurants.
And is our studios grown it's working on projects or
hospitality helps inform what an airport should be, or what
a children's hospital should be, or what a museum should be.
So I think as we've taken those different project types,
(22:34):
it's just created natural growth. And I got two amazing partners,
and it's just been unexpectedly. And your partners or architects,
they're both architection and you're known as the Rockwell Group.
We are um any of your family members and they
in the business. They are not not yet any any
(22:56):
budding architects in the family. I have a twenty year
old daughter and a two year old son. And my
daughter it's interested in art. I don't know about architecture yet. Well,
architecture just such a nice way to spend your time creating,
as you say, the correct spaces for a variety of
(23:17):
of livelihoods, of of living styles, and and to focus
on hospitality, and you were you were focused on hospitality
just at the right time when it started to really exturgeon,
really virgin and and it's just it's incredible to see
what has happened, these new buildings going up. I mean,
you did work. You collaborated on the ship, which is
(23:39):
part of Hudson Yards. Hudson Yards opened right before COVID hit,
which was a terrible time. My office was at in
the Hudson River, in the old start Le high belieing
so I do that, yes, And I watched I watched
Hudson Yards emerge from the train yards below this amazing
(24:01):
complex of fantastic buildings, um an unfortunate upside down truncated
pyramid which has been Is it still closed? It looks
like it's still closed. Yeah. But you know, I think
what defines New York and neighborhoods is really the ground floor.
And it's always been the floor. I guess when I
first came to New York, I saw these towers and thinking, God,
(24:21):
there's people living at every one of those windows. But
what gives it its life is the public realm of
the ground floor, the access to the building. What's on
that first floor of the stores. That's why the was was,
you know, extraordinary experience to be a part of working
with the lascafideo renfro And and Dan dr H and
Alex Poot's um to create a building that could expand
(24:44):
and contract depending on its needs. That the shed has
a small ground floor restaurant and they're called Cedric's named
after Cedric Price, who was a British architect who had
an idea called the Fun Palace that never happened, but
it was a seminal thought piece that affected every architect
about transformable arts buildings. And Danny Meyer operates it and
(25:08):
it is a great place. Just never eaten there? Should
I go eat? You have to go eat. That's right
next to Jose's Market. Oh, I love Jose's Markets. Jose
Andres has a lot of places in there. And you
just worked on a restaurant with Jose. I just did.
Se Tenia Uh such an amazing man and such a
great inspiration and deep thinker and doer totally and has
(25:31):
been doing it for ever since I've known him. He's
been He's been on the west coast of Florida for
the last couple of weeks, serving meals to all those
poor people who have lost their homes, lost their livelihoods,
everything down in Fort Myers and uh and in the
in the coastal islands. Their total inspiration. He's he is incredible.
I'm gonna think I'm going to see him later this week.
(25:52):
I think he'll be back in New York. But um,
he did you work on his restaurant in Spain? Too? No?
We worked. The first project I did for him was
Leo in Las Vegas in the Cosmopolitan, which was fantastic.
We wanted to do this big open pia station and
there were so many reasons why people said no, you know,
(26:14):
the ventilation people, to code people and open fire people. Yeah.
So he and I pushed it through and it's now.
Of course one of the features that attracts people. People
are attracted to kind of energy sources, and no one
knows that better than Jose. No, he's incredible. But you're
I know a restaurant in Las Vegas, which hotel in
(26:37):
the in the Paris Hotel, So there's a Nobu right
across the hall. I will come with it. That's right.
Did you do that that restaurant? We did all the
nobles and then there's a big Noble where we go
to eat because when we want, which is a noble
hotel in the In the Nobu Hotel, we did the whole.
That was their first hotel, and it was an interesting
(26:57):
thing because I based the hotel on the notion of
Ohma cosse, where you're trusting the chef. You know that
idea of there is an actual guiding intelligence and a
host that's that's helping you. So it's not just anonymous luxury.
But I like his hotels. I like all the rooms
and and they're very it's very different. It's a very
different experience. It is sort of like going to Kyoto. Yeah,
(27:22):
very modified way. You know, it's incredible. We're working on
a project I'd love you to look at because it's
um it's your city Harvest in Sunset Park. Were since
at Park Brooklyn, Okay, So they're moving their whole operation
to this amazing building. You've been you've been a member
of that board ever since meals and wheels have been Okay,
(27:45):
City Harvest. I got a call out of the blue
from any At Architects and from and Eric Repair and
the Chef's Council. I think it's called Eric Repair. Jeffreys
and caring. Martin Murphy wanted a display kitchen and event
space on the top, so that's what I designed. But
the kitchen is meant to be kind of residential in scale,
(28:09):
but kind of performance. When there's event in the room,
you could slide open the walls and the kitchen could
be part of that performance. Well, you're you know how
to show things off very well. And I will go
see that that that sounds interesting. So are they're going
to have chef's cooking there? And they are. I did
tell Eric my my dream is that I get to
(28:29):
be a sush chef the first time he cooks in
the kitchen. He's the best pair. Who is the chef
owner of the Bernadine here in New York City? Did
you work on his restaurant? I did not know that.
I get to go. It's wonderful. Kinky Boots another one
(28:57):
of your very big successes on Broadway. Is that fun
to work on? It was a lot of fun to
work on. I had worked with the director before I
knew Jerry Mitchell. Jordan's mom, Daryl Waffe, was a producer
um And what was great about it is it's kind
of a Cinderella story or an unlikely story where Lola
(29:19):
meets Charlie, who's the third generation shoemaker, and they kind
of complete each other in a way you don't expect.
So the set is very much informed by how you
make boots. All the machines are actually quite realistic. There's
a kind of grittiness to it, and then the things
that make the boots become a kind of explosion of
(29:41):
color with Lola shows up, so that treadmills become these
dance places, the walls become milan. So the limit of
um let's make it super gritty and realistic, and then
how that explode with color was a lot of fun.
And Sydney Lauper, did she have anything to do? She
was amazing. Well, Harvey, I had worked with Befour on Hairspray,
(30:06):
and you know, I had fallen in love with him.
He was just the most generous character in Cindy I
had worked with. The first year I became chairman of DIFFA,
which is as design industry foundation fighting AIDS. My brother
had passed away from AIDS and three I felt so
(30:27):
devastated by any ability to help, and DIFFA came along
and kind of pointed to creativity. Is this powerful way
to make a difference. Anyway, I did my first event
for DEFA at Lincoln Center and Cindy Lauper performed there,
so we had a long history and she was very
involved in every detail in Kinky Boots in two thousand
(30:51):
and sixteen. Here here we go, an architect wins a
Tony for she loves me, UM and us where you
met your current amore is that it's true fabulous, UM,
and you created gorgeous art. New vote for the set
for the show, UM was that a challenging build. It
(31:15):
was just a thrilling, full out a love story UM.
Starting with Scott Ellis that directored someone I had worked
with before, and the lyricist was Sheldon Harnick who's now
ven and he wrote the lyrics to Schiddle around the Roof,
which was the first show I ever saw. And I
(31:37):
did meet an amazing woman named Jane Krakowski on the set,
So it was just the one of a kind thrill.
And then the as we started to get into it,
I had this notion that the flat the perfumer rate.
We looked at a lot of flower shops as well,
but this performer ry in in Budapest, could open not
(32:00):
and go from kind of the outer lines of these
people to the inner lives. So it was it was
a complicated build, but it was total total joy. Did
you go to Budapest just did what? What flowers were
they using? Well, it was it's a perfumery. But in
looking at research, I found some flower shops that had
the density of product in the window that I wanted
(32:23):
to get with these perfume bottles, and all the perfume
bottles were customated for the show, like three fifty different pieces.
So it was a lot of complicated adventure. So unber Broadway.
Did you go to see Broadway to see the competition
all the time? You do? What was your last favorite
favorite show? With The last show I saw was a
(32:43):
few days ago. I saw the Piano Lesson, which was wonderful, incredible,
really powerful um And tonight I'm going to a one
night only benefit reading that we designed of the Pirates
of Penzance. How fantastic. So we're reading what's a reading invoice?
It's a staged reading, so it's a galot of people
(33:06):
are paying money, They've had one week to work on it. Uh,
the band will be on stage, so somebody's singing. They're
all the cast of singing, and they'll dance and do
one or two production numbers. But it's a way to
test out material. That's that's so much what we I
think we did Pirates depenzens in high school. Our drama club,
(33:26):
drama club. Very oh yeah, very complicated. Um, lyrics, very complicated.
You gotta sing very fast, very fast. It's like a
record on speed. Yeah. So back to the restaurants, because
I that's how where I first heard about you and
noticed you, noticed your work. Um, the were you surprised?
(33:50):
Were you surprised about your success in the in the
world of restaurants? I mean you're you're you are the
pre eminent designer of restaurants, it seems all over the place.
Besides Nobu and Jose Andres, who else have you designed for? Jehan,
George Jeffries, the Carrion. We're working with Simon Kim right
now from Cote Daniel Blue. Tetsuya Wakuda. Have you been
(34:13):
to his place in Las Vegas? No? Which one is
that it's called Wakuda? No, I have not been there.
Amazing Japanese chef. I will go the next visit. So
We've worked for a lot of amazing people, and you
had totally surprising, totally unexpected, and I think you know
(34:36):
my primary outlook is to stay very curious and be
open to new experiences and go to as many places
I can't. I was giving great advice in an early
internship which I think you would appreciate that ar could
had gave me a tape measure and he said, if
you go to places you like, analyze what you like
about them, analyze the quality of light, start to understand distances.
(34:58):
And I do think restaurants are, you know, this kind
of space in which people get to come together and
have these very memorable experiences. So I am a student
of what makes them work, whether that's places that just
happen on their own or places that are designed. But
I think you have to stay a student if you
(35:19):
want to stay ahead of kind of new ideas well.
I have I have a model which is learned something
new every day, which is about being a student all
the time. You really do that, and you also teach
every day. You can't teach without studying constantly. And you
your work certainly displays that. You have a lot of
pictures here, What are all these pictures in front of us.
(35:41):
This is the pictures that into the woods, which was
at en course. I don't know if you've been to
musicles that on course do but they're very limited resources.
They run for a few days or in this case
two weeks. So we had our model shot make these
miniature dimensional houses that in a very small way indicate
(36:02):
these locations. And then it opens up two this forest
and again we use dimensional These are Saunta tubes that
are laser cut so we can see open space. So
it suggests kind of the loss it into the woods
as well as these beautiful taff of light trees. And
(36:23):
the band sits at the center of all of these platforms,
not in a pit, totally visible and the audience of
the actors can move around it, so you're really in
the same space. Um. The trees can be internally lit,
so when the giant comes, the trees light and can shake.
(36:45):
That is that does that come from you? The trees,
the trees are every part of the physical thing is
from us. And if you notice the moon and the
second act, that's a light box, uh, and it lowers
as the day progresses. Movement in theater is one of
the things you don't get to do an architecture very much.
Bet or not. I don't want my house moving. Um, well,
(37:08):
this has take me Out, which is coming back to Broadway.
I did it last year at One Best revival and
I did it at the Hell and Hayes Theater, which
is the one Broadway show as an architect that I
got to renovate. So it was interesting to work in
that space. So it takes place to Richard Greenberg play
about a baseball player who comes out as gay, very
(37:31):
proud about it, and then how the world sort of
starts to collapse around him and what happens. So it
takes place in this locker room that's meant to feel
very exposed. Um and the lockers move upstage and there's
a quite famous shower scene grating in the floor and
shower comes down and they're taking showers naked in front
(37:52):
of this, you know, kind of expressing the vulnerability of
that locker room. How did you drain the water? We
drained the water in a six inch trough, which is
you had to be flat because you don't elevate the
stage or people are looking up, so sight lines are critical.
And it's recycled water and these turn and flip, and
(38:13):
on the back we have beautiful um painting that represents
playing field. And then at the very end of the play,
we have a series of dimensional lights that can come
in and other shows a shower, so the showers are
controlled individually and you can see you're getting this really
deep view of the water of the faucets and the
(38:35):
locker room. And there's not much running water on Broadway.
There is not, and there's a reason for that. So
it was a nightmare. It was a nightmare. It was
a nightmare. We we had a we had a special
effects water person. We had to audition many different shower
heads and we used ones that was we started with
hardware that I was familiar with. It was really something
(38:57):
that you could adjust the flow so you had a
volume of water, but not so much that it splashed
on stage because when you have water on stage normally
you have someone clean up. There's nobody there. There's nobody
there and incredible, and then the very end of the
show has this beautiful silhouette design. I think you did
(39:17):
the Ted Auditorium in Vancouver. I did, Oh gosh, that
was something was I went there that that when that
year what year was that that was in Yeah, not
that long. But it was beautiful. It was beautiful and
it was all made out of sort of like found wood.
It was all locally sourced wood and it smelled so
(39:38):
great also like cedar or something like that, or pine
or you asked, was I was the She Loves Me
a challenging technical project the Ted Theater was. It's a
I think you gave a talk about that. Oh you did,
that's right, so that it was incredible and everybody's like
looking around because it was like Jerry built, yeah, and
(40:00):
you had to do it so quickly and then it
packs back up when it comes out. This is the
City Harvest project I mentioned. And you can see these
sliding bronze screen doors which have all the product for
the chefs can close off. This is beautiful so um
and I'm excited about that transition. And what a beautiful
kitchen and all reclaimed oak from Barnes So just given
(40:24):
City Harvest mission, we tried to use as much we
claimed as we could. Um. And this is all kind
of new work. Everybody, this is I mean, you have
to just look up online David's work, David Rockwell Group
and you'll see the most amazing assortment of fine of
fine architecture and ingenuity, because that's what this is, the civilian.
(40:47):
This maybe, at the moment, the thing that's nearest stairs
to my heart. It's a small ground up hotel on
Fortier Street. We did the Greenwich Hotel, which is a
beautiful brick building in Greenwich on fort Street. This developer
came to me and said, I'm going to put up
a small hotel teeny rooms. What brand should it be?
(41:08):
And I've been thinking for ten or fifteen years, been
seeking to Danny Meyer about it. Why isn't there a
place in the theater district that's about the theater community.
So he agreed and we created the building and also
curated a collection of three fifty pieces of theater art
that constantly rotates. So in some ways this celebrates the
(41:31):
theater artists you never get to see. You mentioned m
J the amount of people, Derrick McLean set, Natasha cats
Is lighting. All of that is made and then goes away.
So we created a series of spaces. This is the
Blue Room and all of these elements are being reset
this week. They've been up for a year, all borrowed
(41:52):
and they all come from theater. They all countries, various place.
Um in everywhere you look, there's a curate that these
photographs are changing out. They're going to be all the
sketches of the best costume design from last year from
those artists. Um. But there's one particuar of the model
(42:13):
room and then brick where is that her come from?
The brick has reclaimed direct Yeah, and this is an
outdoor terrorists and then this restaurant opens up in a
couple of weeks. Um. I don't know if you knew
Tony Walton. So Tony wrong was one of the great
designers set designers. I think he did so many English
(42:36):
English import plays and movies. He wanted Academy Awards from
Mary Poppins, I think. So when I started civilian thinking
about I went to him and I said, can you
contribute something? And he had done these beautiful drawings of
the some theaters or play bill and he had done
twelve of them, and I asked every working set designer
(42:57):
if they wanted to do another one. So every Broadway
theater is represented by a light fixture and a plaque,
so it really plays tribute to these forty one buildings.
That people don't pay much attention to. This is a
bar and a restaurant, and this is real. If you're
coming from out of town to go to a Broadway
show or a week of shows, look at look up
(43:20):
the Civilian. When does it open. It's open. It's open,
so you might be able to get a room at
the Civilian. Come stay there, and everywhere you look you'll
see the theater artists doing the rooms, the wall coverings.
So interesting. So these models of current shows all change
at their changing out that some people know every single
one of these things. The ones who are inveterate theater
goers um like you, And even the rooms have one
(43:46):
or two pieces of theater. Are in the beautiful Of
all the hotels that you've designed, which would be your
favorite to stay in? Well, it's a great question because
they think, at the end of the day, what makes
a great hotel experiences the invisible things like air conditioning
(44:07):
that's not drafty, light switch as you can dim by
the bed. I would probably say the Granwich Hotel. Yes, yeah,
I just think it's impeccably operated. We just completed or
in completing a renovation of the Book of a Tone,
which is an Addison Meisner structure. Such a beautiful structure.
(44:27):
Beautiful structure. And there's the one with a giant pool outside.
It is Oh, I did it commercial in that pool?
We had water valley in that giant did it was
so incredible And and this is and the hotel is
so impressive, so beautiful. Start restoring the whole lobby and
(44:49):
all the rooms, everything, everything in five different restaurants for
major food group. M one just opened up. So opening
up a little bit at a time. And it's one
of the rare things in architecture is to have a
long relationship with someone you're doing work over time, like
we do for Nobu. This is beautiful um. And you
(45:10):
asked about museums. This is just under construction in Miami.
It's PHOTOGRAPHISCA, which is now in New York um and
they're photo museum that is constantly doing new shows. Have
you been to the one in New York? No, not yet.
(45:30):
And it's where the restaurant Veronica is. Oh no, excuse me, Yes,
I have been there because I love that restaurant so much,
so beautiful, and it's it's downstairs, are upstairs from Veronica upstairs.
It's one of the early shows that right when it
opened in the building is incredible. It is an incredible
did you do that whole place? I did not. I
(45:51):
wish I had. There's lots of things I wish I had,
But here you are doing this. So this is right
near the Rebel Museum in Miami. It's a concrete building.
Know the inner structures concrete. These are wood fins that
are spaced out so they open up towards the middle
and create this loja in the front. Those are beautiful
(46:14):
and those beautiful. And I think in this neighborhood when
you get in the inner space is this look courtyard
that all the galleries spin off of. So it's really
very much based on the climate there with this large
scale Toronto set in a pattern that is beautiful. I
(46:34):
can't wait to go there. I love the Rebel too,
and I love her A nice visit. Yes, so incredible. Well,
it looks like you're continuing to be extremely busy. And
do you ever to go on trips? I did. I
went away for twelve days in September to Sicily in Rome.
(46:55):
Any inspiration in Sicily, oh my god, nothing but inspiration.
Is a beautiful place, beautiful, beautiful place. Um, and also
lots of new relationships. I imagine, like you, when I
go places, I'm collecting collaborators. So the floor Sebastian who
does the San Andres and the Hotel de Russian Ram,
(47:16):
he is someone who've been in touch. Well, I hope.
I'm dying to go back to Sicily, because that is
it was one of my favorite places on earthly been
there three or four times. But I was looking for
the home of Ilga Topardo um and then I'm We're
driving everywhere up in the mountains looking for this home
(47:37):
where the Leopard was written by Medusa. Did you find it?
It had been destroyed in an earthquake in nineteen sixty
five or something. Wow, was it on one of the
isolding islands? No? No, no, it was on Sicily is
on the mainland, but but up high so maybe no,
not that far out, but it was. It was destroyed
(47:59):
and in an earthquake, and so we never found it.
But it was fun looking for it. But what an
incredible island, so much, so much good stuff. And I
can't wait to see what you do there. That'll be fun. Well,
we have talked so much and uh, and I'm just
in awe of the volume and variety of the work
(48:20):
that you do, David, and you keep going and going
and going, making more and more beautiful places, places for
us to sit and eat, places for us to sit
and look at things, and places for us to stay.
And I wish you luck with all your future projects.
I'm inspired what you do that needs a lot well.
Thank you very much for speaking with us today, and
(48:43):
I'm sure our audience is going to be very inevit
of your conversation. Thank you, Thank you. At the d
Host
Martha Stewart
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