Ep. 358: Thoreau Would Likely Have Little Use For You

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
This is me eat your podcast, coming at you, shirtless, severely,
bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You
can't predict anything presented by First Light creating proven versatile
hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for
every hunt, First Light, Go farther, stay longer. Can everybody coming?

(00:36):
Uh coming coming to you? Perched high above the beautiful
Pacific Ocean, wonderful for you here, Thank you with Kimmy Werner,
Seth Morris, Coudy, Danny Bolton, Ryan Callahan. Danny has the
first little just as the first little thing titillate everybody.

(00:56):
Did we talk when you were on the show before
do we talked about what you did for a living? Um?
Real briefly that again I find those Yeah. So we
trained some military special forces guys and some other government agencies,
UM off road driving, off our driving technique and then
a lot of recovery stuff. So a lot of work
with the winches, UM, a lot of work would just

(01:19):
towing each other out if they need to use toast
draps or whatnot, and then also filling them in on
how to fix stuff, kind of giving them the confidence
and wrenching on their own vehicles. UM, A lot of
guys have that kind of personal desire to do for
their own vehicles too. But if we break an axle
or something or blow a differential out there, we get
them in there, we get them involved, and then it

(01:41):
just gives them a chance to kind of understand that
whole process and see how how simple it really can be. UM,
if you kind of know what you're doing, and just
try to build that confidence in them. So if something
happens to them out in the field, A lot of
times did just be leaving that vehicle if it was
a dire situation. But once you're down to one vehicle,

(02:01):
that's all you got. So, UM, do you guys train
in the same vehicles they use? We do. Uh this
next trip that we're going out there bringing out some
of their own military vehicles. So I'll just be riding
in one of those. Um they're called the one dot ones.
So we're training in their vehicles. And then a lot
of times they'll get like toylet of high lux is

(02:23):
and they'll get an array of vehicles because sometimes they
want to blend in wherever they're going, so they get
some pretty Yankee stuff from what I've seen some pictures
of sometimes, so just kind of giving them a good
feeling of off road mobility stuff and what they can
be capable of. A lot of it is just building
confidence in them. Is that is that what you want

(02:46):
Danny to hit her? Or was it the coffee roasting?
You're more interested no vehicle driving? Yeah, you're tangled up
in the coffee business. I'm tangled left and all kinds
of stuff. Um. My family has an rushing company, so
I grew up working construction. UM a lot of heavy equipment,
running bulldozers or excavators or whatnot. And then also my

(03:10):
dad had a ranch property that he bought in one year.
They were slow and he didn't you know, the construction
was slow, so he's like, hey, let's keep these guys
busy and planted a coffee field. So when I was
a kid ten eleven years old, we had to plant
a bunch of these coffee trees down in the nursery
next to our house, let them grow for a year,
and then we took him up to the farm and

(03:31):
planted him. Um up at the farm when I was
twelve or thirteen, And it takes a couple of years
for those coffee trees to really start producing. But the
first couple of years it did produce, they ended up
winning first place in a cupping competition. So then I
was like, okay, like we got we have something here.
So kind of snowballed from there. You know, website, coffee shop,

(03:53):
our whole owned million because my dad's really hands on
and wants to see the whole process. So I bought
all the equipment. I ran the dry mill for a
long time and the wet mill. So the wet mills,
when the coffee comes off the farm, it's got to
get the skin off, it washed and then dried so
that it's shelf stable, drive to a certain temperature um
not temperature, moisture content so that it doesn't mold, and

(04:15):
then from there you sort it again so that you
have all the same sized coffee beans so when you
roast it, it's like putting cookies in the oven, right,
Like you got small ones and big ones. The big
ones aren't gonna be done by times the small ones
are burnt, so you want to get all the same
sized beans, all the same density. So it's a couple
of machines that have to run for that, And it
was cool because that was mainly during the winter. I

(04:36):
would do that work, so I'd come home work three
four months in the winter, and then I could go
travel and do work wherever else. I was traveling doing
a bunch of automotive stuff too. Um and that heavy
machinery experience kind of let into your driving too, right,
because you gotta make your own dirt bike courses and stuff. Yeah,
I did so when we were kids, when you know,

(04:57):
we were blessed to have equipment, so anytime it wasn't
being used, we'd built it own dirt bike track stuff.
So we built some pretty crazy ask jumps that I
probably wouldn't let my own kid jump, you know. And
um dot led into working in the automotive industry. UH
company came over here and wanted to build a course

(05:17):
for because they sponsored iron Man that we have here
the World Championships in Kuna, and they wanted some people
to be able to drive over some bumps and stuff.
And they called my dad and he was like, hey,
none of my employees built that track. My son built it,
you know, and his cousins. UM. So they called me
and I was sixteen at the time, and so I

(05:38):
was like, yeah, no, problem, like sounds easy, and I
showed up and I was real short to at that time.
I like grow spert later on, and that guy was
just questioning me big time, and I knew we had
the skills. I told my cousin, like, hey, let's get
this done. We had three days to build it. We
built it in one day, and the guys like, all right,
these guys are legit. So the next year, right out

(06:00):
of high school, I went working eleven. I went six
months on the road um for a certain car company
tour that we did and built tracks all over the US.
And that's kind of what led me to the mainland.
Like I was born and race here and then read
out of high school, I was over there and they
didn't really want to fly me back and forth, so
I was CouchSurfing. I'd go to my aunts and stuff

(06:21):
in California, and ended up in gardner Ville, Nevada for
a little while, which is by Lake Tahoe. So that
brought me to the mainland for about four or five
years until the recession hit in two thousand and ten.
Two thousand nine, I moved home and just started working
construction because that the whole car company right the whole
car industry dried up. But during that time in the Mainland,

(06:41):
we raced off road. We built our own race truck
because we knew how to weld and everything. So me
and my cousin fabricated our own race truck, built the
whole world cage and everything, and did real well doing
that desert racing like the Baja Staff, and then that's
kind of all that's kind of led into the military stuff.
I met a friend on a toy at a photo
shoot that's like, dude, I gotta get you into this

(07:02):
because we gotta go camping for four days. I need
someone who can help cook. It's not going to complain, um,
you know about being cold or tired or whatever, because
some days we're out there, you know, middle of the
night with night vision on trying to fix something. So
I was like, yeah, man. So that kind of got
me into the whole military thing, which is awesome because
with those guys that you know, you can really be yourself.

(07:23):
Some of the corporate stuff, you've gotta be careful what
you say, you know, dot your eyes, cross your tees
and like be a certain way. But with these guys, um,
they have a lot of the similar mindset as us
and just enjoying like the struggle. So it's been a pleasure. Mhmm. Yeah,
so it makes you think I got the wrong business man. Yeah,

(07:45):
And I've done some like hunting, guiding and stuff, and
I'll do I'll teach class for that outfit called taking
her slow. Yeah. Yeah. But here's how I like to
drive down trails. It's called using your binoculars. Just kind
of re blog. That's a big part of it. Like
these guys, it's the same as offered racing. Like most

(08:06):
offered racing, the finishing rate is so of the people
who start the race. You know, some races are a
little bit better, but a lot of people start the
race don't finish. So we teach these guys like, go
fast when you can, but there's certain areas you cannot
go fast. You have to take it easy on the vehicles.
And we're talking like inches. If you're off on the

(08:26):
wrong line, you're not making it up an obstacle. But
if you just take your time, back it up a
little bit, use the right technique. We teach them a
lot of driving with both feet, you know, left foot
on the brake, right foot on the gas. A lot
of open differential stuff. Um, one tire will get up
in the air, and those differentials are lazy. They'll send
all the power to the easiest one to turn. So

(08:46):
you're using that left foot break to kind of modulate
that and still get traction, and that a way. It
keeps it too, from getting to a bunch of wheel spin.
And that's where you start breaking assholes and differentials because
you get all that wheel spin, all that torque, and
then all of sudden, if you go over something, it
gets traction again. All that traction has gotta go somewhere,
and that's where you start snapping stuff, drive shofts and

(09:07):
stuff like that. So mhmm, yeah, it's fascinating man. Yeah,
I'd like to take that course. Yeah, yeah, I'd love
to have you guys out. I'd love to have you
guys out. Well, we'll plan a trip. Yeah, we get
a couple of vehicles together and um think steve truck. Yeah,
we can take Steve's truck or we can take your
own vehicles, we can take our vehicles. We'll take both
because we have all the tools and stuff set up too.

(09:28):
We'll make sure we have the right stuff and we
can even come scout some stuff in Montana because a
lot of are a lot of hunting, right, you end
up in some pretty crazy places. I'm sure you have
stories of being stuck somewhere and do you hunting? And Sonora. Man,
it's like a proving ground for vehicles. Okay, Uh, we're
gonna come out here anyway. I haven't contacted yet, but
there's a we're gonna have like all company dive, not

(09:51):
all company. We're gonna try to get a private free
dive one and two yeah, safety rescue. All that ship
lined up. I haven't contacted the dude yet, but he's
in Hawaii. Yeah, and um so if we come out
for that, we can do vehicle training to that. You
want to go to our dive thing with this kid?
I would love to. And I think that's great. You

(10:11):
guys are going to do that. You could be like,
that's not how I do it. We should round it out, sharks,
throw like a Woolford course in there too. Just knock
a bunch of stuff out. Two d medical, Yeah, driving
diving medical. Uh. Okay, I gotta move down the line here.

(10:33):
Oh do you know what did you see this article? Uh?
Do you know the actor Nick Offerman. He plays like
on Parks and reck It's kind of like Parks and
Recket is kind of like the Goodwill Bin of the office,
Like they had the office and someone's like, which we
had more stuff like that, right, and so they came

(10:54):
up with that. So the dude, there's a guy that
plays kind of blow hard on he plays like a
libertarian Nick Offerman. Oh that's oh yeah, okay, I got you. Yeah.
He writes this thing and Outside Magazine, and I used
to be on the mast headed Outside Magazine. So it's
funny someone sends me this article he wrote called Nick

(11:17):
Offerman's Call of the Candy Ass. And when I saw
the headline, I was like, he stole my dad's word,
because I've never heard anybody but me and my old
man described to one as a candy ass. Naturally, I
read the article. It turns out he's talking about the podcast.
He's talking about this podcast. Well he says how he
says he's listening to a podcast. He doesn't name the podcast.

(11:39):
This is a recent episode, and a guest we had,
and I think it's John Allen was talking about Throw
Henry David Throw, and I pointed out because there's an article.
I can't remember who wrote the article hacking on Throw
about how like throws like he went to live in
this cabin, you know, but it like he's going to

(12:01):
his moss house every other day, right, right, But like
it wasn't this writer kind of looked at like how
Throw presented what his reality was. You know that was
Brent West because we were talking about Maine and Throw,
and you're like, okay, because like so there's this thing
like throws. Time in the woods is understood to be away,

(12:24):
but there was like you know, there's been like exposes
about like what throw is actually about. Like he's a
big mom's boy and he went to so I said,
throws a candy ess. So this guy Offerman writes about
this podcast host me okay, and how he upset he
is about what I said about Throw. And then he

(12:46):
goes on like you know this kind of like classic
like the outdoors is for everybody and it's not your
position to judge, right, and who are you to write
all this stuff? But they also it's weirdly like he
like weirdly contradicts himself. It's mostly like a bike riding
story he like, but he sets it up about this

(13:07):
mean podcast host and then closes with a mean podcast
host and it's about him riding his bike ground uh
And he says he contradicts himself because he says how
throw in his words throw head um. He says, I
powerfully admire Throw, but I wasn't anger. Instead, I wondered
if this guy was aware of the naturalist storied toughness.

(13:30):
This is a quote, an Offerman quote. His inner circle
of friends knew him to hike for many miles, often
with wet feet. And he goes on and so this
is Offerman on Throw. He says Throw had little use
for those who couldn't keep up, which would lead me
to believe that Hearthrow has little use for those who

(13:53):
can't keep up, which need leads me to believe that
he's a bully or is the outdoors forever everyone not
and throws of you because he has little use for
those who can't keep up, according to Offerman. Then we
get down the page and Offerman then has this to
say about I sensed that that demeaning podcast hosts and

(14:17):
cyclist hating drivers come from a culture of bullying and aggression,
one that so often misunderstands our need for outdoor adventure.
It's like he's hanging out in the discussions they have
at my kids elementary school bullying and aggression. It's like
you think a dude, an actor who makes his living

(14:39):
being funny, would better understand like a joke. Uh, well,
here's something that you need to know about this fella
he's got. He spent all of his time being a
a woodworker, and from what I've seen and kind of read,
he's like New England style, is kind of a traditional woodworker.
He's got his own word working show up. I think

(15:00):
he's got some employees these days, and they turn out stuff.
And I want to say that he built either canoes
or kayaks or something like that good, and I would
venture to expound that, Um, a man who builds a

(15:20):
hand carved canoe is going to be real tight with
Throw mm hmm to go for a paddle, as they say,
and that, but like bullying and aggression. To make a
joke about Throw. We asked him to come on the
show and his person said, Nick is not available. Yeah,
and Throw's Dad's you can't get that. I think there's

(15:45):
a there's a line in there, beads of water sliding
off the back of your canoe paddle like like bullying
and aggression. Should I like to listen to the show. Oh?
I loved his character on on Parks Wreck. That's one
of the few I bet I've seen more Parks and
Wreck episodes than I ever did the Office episodes. Um,

(16:07):
maybe he's want to be hunter and he was in
that using that Sam Elliott movie that got a bunch
of awards. I think we're Sam Elliott's like the kind
of hack cowboy actor that gets a second shot. And
you ever see that one? Real good Offerman was a

(16:27):
great character in that. I didn't know who it was
until I realized it was the blow hard from Parks Wreck.
I wouldn't even what's that? I don't I don't think so.
But he was just like, uh, he was a well
defined character compared to everybody else. Yeah, yeah, I like that.

(16:50):
Uh here's a good piece of mal What do you
think about that? Kenny? I mean, I do think you
can be demeaning sometimes, but that sometimes yes, but I
he's telling that like when yesterday you were being very
demeaning towards stand up paddling and saying that anybody who's
into that, Um, you just wonder why they would ever

(17:14):
get into it and what the heck they gave up
to get into it, or maybe they just didn't do
anything ever before and that's why they got into it. Yeah, okay,
give me some more. Is that really the word for it?
Or it just like a judgmental I'm skiing. I always
hear you putting down skiers. Yeah, I know. Anything like

(17:42):
something else I'm demeaning about is any kind of when
your kids are in something that makes them have to
be somewhere on weekends. Yeah. I ever heard you talking
about that yesterday too and saying, don't play any sports
on the weekends because no, but he's gonna go We're
not good. Yeah, I know. Well I'll have you know that.

(18:09):
My wife starting to talk some sense and do him
actually talking, and she said I had failed utterly because
he just dug his heels in. So he's he's enrolled
in weekend sports. It's up in the air, Kimmy, what's
your parental position on that? I don't know. I was

(18:31):
definitely listening and thinking what am I gonna do when
buddies of that age, because I would feel the exact
same way, where like eight saturdays in a row. Do
you need to go down to this place? Yeah, and
my dad was the same way with me, where we
didn't get into any sports that took him away from
like fishing and diving and camping and stuff. Tell me

(18:52):
more demeaning things, so I'm gonna try to change my ways.
Are the ones that came to my mind right away. Um,
just one example from each day would be fine. What
about the tame pets? Oh that I don't like domestic animals?
You guys, here's the problem. Yeah, we're gonna move on.
And here's the problem. Here's what I don't like about
what you're doing. No, I'm gonna I'm gonna demean you

(19:14):
guys from it. This is gonna apply to me to
let's letter. H. Everyone has opinions about stuff. Yeah, okay,
everyone has opinions about stuff. Um, but I find that
when if someone has an opinion and they and they
like ex like express it emphatically or or really express it,

(19:37):
that it starts to make people uncomfortable. Right, So me
saying that, like, domestic dogs aren't as interesting to me
as wild dogs because I don't understand what they do
all day. But but Kyo bust his ass all day,
it's just more interesting to me. But then somebody like, well,

(19:57):
that's demeaning to domestic dogs. Yeah, everybody has an opinion, right,
but a lot of people just don't say what they're thinking,
or it's just like one little blip and then you
don't get the full story behind why they feel that way.
My wife would be like, you always think you're right.
I'm like, do you often think you're wrong? I think

(20:17):
the difference between that, though, is everybody has opinions, and
that is absolutely true. But I think that when you
can understand that so many truths all exist at the
same time, and so your opinion is just one of
many many truths, Um, then I think it sounds a

(20:38):
little less demeaning. But if you say your opinion like
this is the truth and this is the only truth,
then everybody else got it wrong, then um, it sounds
a little demeaning. That's a hard pill to swallow. Let
me counter counter. Here's the way to look at it.
Throws dead so like Mama's boy. No, So here's we're

(21:00):
talking about a dead writer. Okay, throws dead like I'm
not gonna hurt, throws like book sales to high school
students Okay, stand up paddle boarding is a a luxury
recreational activity. It's not like it's like a It's like
like many of the things I'm too into. It's kind

(21:21):
of a nothingness. My feelings about domestic dogs are going
to have any impact on pet ownership in America. I
have a domestic dog, so maybe I'm like goofing on
like fairly harmless things that don't really matter. Okay, so
if if I'm like goofing on stand up paddle board,

(21:41):
He's like, am I really? Am I really like creating
trouble for someone no or a dead guy? I mean,
I don't. I'm not bothered by your how you can
be demeaning. Sometimes I think that it's line, you know,

(22:02):
but it's still demeaning. Dude. I'm not going to mean
anything anymore. Start being one of those if we can
get through this podcast, I'm gonna start being one of
those guys just likes everything. It's funny when you said
I'm gonna be that guy who likes everything. The dog
emerged from underneath the couch. Where's that dog? Um Ah? Okay,

(22:30):
I think it's good you have opinions. You're to hurt
people's doings and that's fine. Yeah, more people need to
share their opinions because people are getting thin skin. Well
that's why he let me back up before we even
talk about this. I asked Nick Offerman to come on
the on the show, and we got like had I
had some people, you know, new people that knew him

(22:53):
and his schedule are like blew it off. So my
instinct was to have him on the show and laugh
about throwing. Yeah, that was his opportunity to share his opinion. Well,
I thought it'd be fun. I even said that we'll
talk about we'll talk about your books, authors do real
well in the show, we'll talk about throwing. It'll be fun.
He's not available. He's too covered in sawdust thinking about

(23:14):
his new England paddle, probably a close proximity to his
mom's house, right, Steve um Oh, I got a prosecutor.
I was giving a hot tip for raising children that
uh Ninja throwing stars are a riot, A prosecutor wrote
in a deputy he's a deputy prosecutor in Indiana. A
one let you all know, especially you're Indiana listeners, that

(23:39):
he calls the Chinese throwing stars, which I do remember.
Some people call him Ninja throwing stars. Some people call
him Chinese throwing stars, even though I believe that's the Japanese.
The Japanese word for them is uh uh assure it
can either way. I'm a deputy prosecutor in Indiana. I
want to let you all know, especially Indiana listeners, the
Chinese throwing star is there illegal in Indiana. See Indiana

(24:03):
Codett seven five Dash twelve Officer. This was made in Japan.
Chinese throwing stars defined as a throwing knife, throwing iron,
or other knife like weapon with blades set at different angles.
It is a Class C misdemeanor punishable by up to
sixty days in jail. He then points out, I've been

(24:26):
a prosecutor for seven years and I've never heard of
this crime being charged. I would love to know how
it got on the books. I was saying that when
I was trying to find Ninja throwing stars for my kids,
they don't sell them on Amazon. I had to go
to a ninja supply warehouse to get mine online. Ninja
supply warehouse to get my throwing stars on the Dark Lab. Sure,

(24:48):
I can probably put you on some sort of list.
H m hmmm. Oh, here's another good one guy wrote
in on our recent episode, if there's lead in the air,
there's hoping the heart. Um. We debated a lot of
feedback on this one. We had on Chris Parrish of

(25:09):
the Peregrine Fund, and we talked a lot about lead
ammunition versus copper ammunition, and we talked about lead toxicity, leading,
the environment, effects on condors, on on and on. It's
a very good conversation. I thought I was gonna ask
you what you thought. Old Chris there loved it. I

(25:30):
thought he did a great job. Yeah, he's a smart fellow.
I had pointed out my h oh, I'm gonna do
you don't mind if I demean myself, do you? I
often talked about how I'm real bad at basic arithmetic.
That's the um and I said, how would one ever
figure out, uh, the density if there's one eighteen thousand

(25:58):
lead pellets per acre? And I made a comment like
I would never be able to figure out what that
looked like what I figured it out for us? An
acre is forty three thousand, five sixty square feet, so
D eighteen thousand, which is the number of lead pellets
per acre in some of these areas. They've surveyed. Sean

(26:19):
brought that up on the Sean's Duck Report. Divided by
forty three thousand, five hundred sixty comes out too for
every square foot two point seven, so round up to three. Uh.
And some of these uh and some of these waterfowl
hunting areas are talking about they were finding for every

(26:40):
square foot, look at the tiles on the floor, twelve
inch tiles, there'll be three pellets laying there. Pretty good
density pellets. What was the uh the math equation that

(27:00):
we're talking about, And I said we should mention on
the podcast so someone we can figure it out. Oh,
here's a good one. This this, this actually has This
came about from my conversation about Kimmy. I still don't
remember having a hard time even saying thoughts anymore because like,
like knowing Kimmy, you think some meeting, are you gonna

(27:22):
be like come like bff with Nick Offerman and talk
about how bad I am. No. I I think that
we can all be de meaning sometimes. But when you
just said that you're not, and then you asked what
my opinion about that was, I just had to say, like,
I definitely think you can be de meaning, which is fine.
Do you think it's de meaning to call someone de meaning?

(27:43):
Not if they ask for it, So that's just being
a friend. I was explaining to Seth how I've become,
how I have become. My best day black hot fishing
was my first day black hot fishing, and it's one

(28:05):
of the few things in life for the more I
do it, the worst I get. Like you usually expect
in life, You're trained to expect this sort of like experience,
right like as experience increases, sort of like you're a
deptness or you know, yeah, you get better. It's just
like a like a basic thing that happens in life.

(28:25):
But with black hot fishing or sable fish fishing, my
I get worse the more I do it. And I
was talking about need to get out of my rut
on sable fish fishing, and I mentioned how your father
when I asked him why he's so successful fishing black
hot in Southeast Alaska, he laid out for me his formula.

(28:47):
You want me to mention it, No, I don't know
what it is. Well, he uses those little Hawaiian chum
bags that delivered chum down to ft of water, which
I bought two of. And then realized in the time
it took me to order them, I would have made
some with a needle and thread in a pair of
blue jeans, but I didn't know. I didn't have one
of my hands yet. The mucky dog bags like the

(29:07):
palube you guys were, Paulu means chump. They just call
it like polou chum bag, but in print in quotes,
so it's like Hawaiians and and Americans understand it, right,
you know what I mean, that's a Hawaiian word polu. Yeah,
I can't mean barf or yeah. So they have it

(29:32):
described as like a polo and in chum, one of
them being in parentheses bag. I bought to he did that. Also.
He mentioned that they will set an anchor in four
hundred feet of water, yeah, and tie off on that
so that you're holding a spot and when you're dropping chump,

(29:53):
you're not drifting away from the chump, and then they
wait and bring him into him. Yeah. And the theory
behind that, which I was told is um that the
younger black card, the smaller black cud. You know, like
a lot of fish species are like more frisky, more aggressive,
more assertive, and sometimes though bigger and fatter you get

(30:18):
the more slow you are, and so if you're constantly
drifting or moving, you're always going to be attracting the
smaller fish, whereas if you stay in one place, it
um gives the big ones time to move in and
start biting. You know, when you said how the younger
ones are friskier and the older ones get a little complaining.

(30:40):
I want you to know that I was gonna say,
I was gonna say, I know some people like that,
but I didn't sad on that one. Sad on it.
But I bet the fishing that combo got your wheels

(31:01):
turning though two right, like, is it inching you towards
the investment of dropping a semi permanent buoy out there,
which brings around the math question and seth, I bet
you've talked about the podcast. Someone to send you a
very good explanation. You need someone like when you said

(31:22):
an anchor, you need some amount of scope for tide swing,
So better describe scope, like, well, you don't really depends
on how big your weight is. What scope is when
you go to anchor a boat, scope is the angle
of the line, meaning let's say you're anchoring a boat
and one ft of water and you have and you
have exactly one of rope or let's say a hundred

(31:46):
one ft a rope, and you lower it down, anchor
hits the bottom, you're tied it to the boat. You're
in a hundred feet of water, you have a hundred
one ft a rope. You have basically zero scope when
the when the boat moves is going to clonk the
anchor long and it can move for tide or wind
or both sometimes. And scope is like your angle. So
the more scope you have, the better your thingle hold

(32:07):
and the less weight it takes to hold the object.
And sometimes they'll anchor stuff where it's actually a seven
to one for every foot of depth you have seven
ft and you can have and that anchor line is
that at a very shallow angle as it runs through
the water column, and you just get better grip, especially

(32:27):
with an admiralty anchor that has those points on it,
because they dig in. So I was wondering if you
went out the four feet of water and you're in
an area with like a twenty five ft tide swing
and you drop an anchor and tie it to a bootie,
how much if it's if you know the exact depth, Like,

(32:48):
let's say the exact depth is four ft of water.
How much rope do you need? And then when you
figured that the wind, then the tide is moving that
thing around. It's actually imagine it throughout the course of
a day, it's gonna make like a conical shape. So
at any given time, how big is the diameter? What

(33:13):
sort of diameter are you swinging above the fixed point
of the anchor, so that if you drop chum down,
are you swinging a circle of like a hundred yard diameter?
Why was Dick from been listening to the podcast Are
you swinging? Are you swinging a thousand yard? Yeah? Like,

(33:37):
how over the anchor? Are you? Yes? Like? Is it
is it really beneficial to have that fixed point if
you can't actually ever get to that fixed point because
of tides, winds, scope? And then to go back to
the mechanical conversation, and keep in mind this all was

(33:58):
brought up while we were standing line to like load
the plane on the way over here to Hawaii. Um,
what type of rope do you need? Or line? Do
you know? I was talking about buying some real shitty
rope and Cal pointed out, if you can go through
all the hassle to set an anchor in four ft
of water? Why would it be shitty rope? Don't you
want it to be there the next day? What would

(34:20):
inevitably be a whole day to make this happen? And
there's an added wrinkle. I don't want to name names,
but I knew a person who set a chum bag
and threet of water, and he was under the impression
it was he was it was illegal to do it,
so he stapled his. He he stapled his to a

(34:44):
drift log, which cal pointed out is like one benefit
of a buoy as others can see it and when
you hit it, it's soft. So this is not naming names.
Stable his to a drift log, so that the innocent
passer by would just think it was a saggy drift

(35:07):
log sitting barely above the surface. Uh. And then when
he would anytime he went crabbing, anytime he went shrimping,
anytime he cleaned fish, he would put it in a
biodegradable burlap sack. Put a rock in that sack, tie
it off to the line, and Davy Crockett's locker, What's

(35:28):
who's that guy? Jones? Locker right down to the bottom.
It's probably got a nice little pile of rocks down there.
He's got a little reef and it's full of chump
Crockett ever see the ocean. That's a good that's a
good question. I'll after look like that's a question for
Clay or Buddy Levy. So the whole thing on Crockett

(35:48):
did Jill the Crockett and Crockett's day as a politician,
as a congressman, there was two congressmen that got you know,
you fight like Trump and Hillary. Right, it's tense. Well,
these two political figures, Crockett's peers, these two political figures,
it got like the debates got so intense and personal

(36:10):
that at the end of the election they challenged they
had they agreed to have a duel, but duels were
illegal in the state where they lived. So they traveled
together to another state where it was legal to have
a duel, where the guy that won the election then
shot and killed the loser, and people on top about

(36:32):
how politics is nasty nowadays. Wait, so it wasn't a
proper duel. It was whoever lost, you got shot, no
matter what. No, they did the election, so be like
Trump and Hillary fight, fight, fight, say passed after where
Trump wins Hillary loses. They then go to another country
where it's legal. They go to like Afghanistan where it's

(36:53):
legal to duel. Trump kills Clinton in the duel and
then comes home and resumes his position. That was Crockett's
political era. But people talk about how politics has gotten
too nasty. Yeah, and what was I saying? No, Davy
Jones locker and we want to get to the ask
of please write oh and and then and then I

(37:16):
said this to my brother Danny. I said, but it's
illegal to set a buoy? And Danny says, is it?
I feel that we think it's illegal to set a
boy because of the person with the drift log told
us that. But they told us a lot of stuff.
The person with the drift log and the salvage business.
That's a joke. So it's a whole pile of questions

(37:37):
like can you go out to your favorite spot and
set at booi in four ft of water in the
state of Alaska and then leave it there indefinitely? And
can how much rope? And what's the diameter of your
circle at the top when you're tied off to it?
And what type of rope. Yeah, because it's not something

(38:01):
you want to go re redo every year. And then
if they do right, and then if they could throw
this into like do they fill it out into meaning
I was working on especially when you turned on me. There, man,
I did not turn on you. You asked me my opinion.
I was working on the Anchor's good for everyone to
have opinions, just at the right time. Work on your timing.

(38:26):
I was working on the anchor system. The next old
refrigerator or freezer, after you drain all the nasty stuff
out of it, burn all the stuff out of it. Um,
I wonder if you could just throw that thing in
the boat, go out there with some quick dry cement,
and have that be your anchor. I got the anchor
of all anchors for this purpose. I got the fridge

(38:47):
for you. The thing you guys got to think about
is how you're getting this anchor off the boat? Well,
because that sucker is heavy. Here's the other question I got. Well, no,
I got like, I have an actual anchor that I
want to use for this right now. It's anchor my
dock and play some one end. But I can replace
that with a rock. Um. Yeah. The other thing is
If you let out fot of line that's spooled in

(39:08):
the bottle of the boat and it gets tangled halfway down,
you are not happy. So I might run it off
a spools, run a broomstick through a spool. You take
your float, right, you got this all calculated out. You
got the exact amount of rope. You float that float,
and you let all that rope out, and you got

(39:28):
your anchor, and you go over your spot and the's
some bitch is so heavy, it's just gonna drag that. Yeah.
Or you or you take an old skiff that you
don't want anymore and tie that to it, tow it
out there with the anchor in the rope coiled nicely
in it, start piling rocks in it, and then you
sink that skiff with the anchor, and then at that

(39:50):
thing is gonna be so many miles away from the
bull's eye by the time it hits That's true. You
have to pick a day with little cur There's guys
that were for the coolest guard that just set anchors. Yeah.
Part of what's got this time my mind is here
we we went by bullies. Here there are in thousands
and thousands of feet of water. Yeah, you talk to

(40:13):
that somethingit not to demean him. Yeah. And then when
you guys are fishing these bullies, you know, I know
when we fish bullies here, the current is usually going
one way, so you're kind of on that bully and
you're kind of fishing it one direction for hours. Um,
So I don't know, like you're asking about, like that
wind and the tide and the current everything. I wonder

(40:35):
how often it's switching. Um, if it's switching, you know,
every hour or whatever. If you can fish it's solid
for a couple of hours where it's going one direction
and you don't really have to worry about Yeah, I
don't have a swing, so it's kind of hard to find.
But as long as you know where the anchor point is,
you know where the current's going, you can usually find
that bully to where it's at, and then you fish
it for those couple hours while the currents, let's say,

(40:56):
headed south. Then you're just fishing it while it's headed
south for that day. You're still dropping down your like
palau bag. So it doesn't really matter like per day
you'd fish it, you know, if it's heading north the
next day, you'd be fishing at where it's heading north.
And oh, we gotta get back on track because this
all came about with math problems. So the guy wrote

(41:19):
in about the math, the math around how much lead,
like how much lead shot is out on the landscape
in certain places. Now we got two more things. Um
A doctor wrote and all fired up that I was,
uh that I was not taking lead poisoning seriously enough.

(41:43):
I disagree. I was pointing out. I pointed out only
that he wasn't listening carefully. He's like, no lead is good.
That's why lead is like zero, Like zero is how
much lead you should strive for in life. You say
no lead is good. I was. I was pointing out
that no one has found elevated lead levels in hunters,

(42:09):
elevated relative to their peers who are not consuming wild game.
And I pointed out that when they did this thing
where they went to like North Dakota and found lifelong
consumers of wild game killed with lead shot and took
their lead levels, their lead levels were lower than non

(42:29):
hunters who live in urban environments, who are getting lead
from soils contaminated by leading, you know, from all those
years of leaded gasoline, lead paint no, not industrial lead pollution.
I was never saying that I think lead is good
to eat. I was just saying, no one has shown
a a and like people act like it's there, but

(42:53):
it's like if it's there, sent it to me. No
one has shown. No one has definitively shown and not
even defensively. No one's kind of demonstrated it. Hunters are
suffering from increased lead levels due to the consumption of
wild game. It's just it's see what you want about lead.
That's not a thing. And uh, he did say warmer

(43:13):
guards and and I imagine you can demonstrate to folks
that you're serious about lead because you probably, like myself
as a youth, I used to pack some lead shot
in your lip while you were re rigging your rods
and stuff like that. And you probably, like myself, have
quit doing that. Yeah, I keep I would keep my
split shot fishing. I'd keep some split shot over on

(43:37):
this side of my cheek and gum, and I'd keep
my maggots on this bit of my cheek and gum,
just like everybody. And like we're talking about sat Day
steel head fishing, because you're like, you get to one hole,
it's deeper the other hole. Not you just keep a
couple in your cheek and gum for just so you
can very quickly like rig for where you're at. Not
only that, we used to go down we had a

(43:58):
gun range two miles from our house. We'd ride our
bikes down to the gun range, put the flag out
and take a sifter and go sift the burm. For
non gun range users, typically there's some sort of a
signal that says folks are down range, which means do
not shoot right there. Typically down there changing targets, you know.

(44:22):
But the Ronello boys would put the flag out saying
do not shoot. We're gonna go because we're sifting the berm.
We would sift the burn for bullet lead, go home,
melt the lead in the garage because my dad had
gotten this all the stuff to pour, and we would
pour sinkers. And I'm telling you, man, the thing about
those homemade sinkers made with bullet lead is there's like

(44:43):
alloys and that stuff, and like you go to the
store and buy you go to the sporting store and
by lead and you go to bite it. It's nice
and soft. In fact, your tooth leaves and mark when
you bite that lead onto the line, our homemade sinkers,
when you bit that lead out of the line, you'd
hear your tea crumble a little bit and you couldn't
dent that ship. It's like and they didn't seem to

(45:06):
be as heavy. It's like kind of a weird deal,
like homemade sinkers. But I would never let my kids
do that. My brother Danny had a film jar full
of mercury that we would get out and play with
that he'd collect. Anytime he run across the thermometer, he'd
get the mercury out and we would like play with
Danny's mercury. So like like, I'm not in any way

(45:27):
like I I never wanted it to be that. I'm
like downplaying. I'm just saying, you know, I don't I
wouldn't let me. I don't let my kids do stupid
stuff that we didn't. We we we just doupid stuff because
people weren't really aware. My ole man when he was
in the army, they would give you cigarettes in your
sea rations. It's like, you know, over time, right, you

(45:49):
learned things over time. Here's another guy wrote about the
lead thing. Now, this guy brings up a very valid point,
cal I need you to be present for this. Oh,
and doing this to him when you think abou something? Okay.
To Offerman's point, if is it even possible to bully

(46:09):
a dead man? Well, there's that famous sign like don't
speak ill of the dead, but that that's speaking ill
of the dead. Can you bully the dead man? No? No,
I feel like because they're not alive, you're certainly not
going to give him a wedge in his dry pelvis phone.

(46:38):
Uh yeah, it's really got my head's tearing me up, dude,
final bit of led thing, and this is a bad one.
This is a tough one. He goes to point out
all this talk about everyone in the hunting and fishing
communities switching over to copper lead so bad. You know what,

(47:04):
Let me give you a fact that would have given
him a lot of ammunition. But I don't know if
he's aware of it. If I was this guy right
in this letter not to demean him, I would have
concluded how lead ammo is almost exclusively So we toured
the federal AMMO factory. Guess where all the Federals lead
comes from? Recycled car batteries. They're lead comes from recycled

(47:25):
car batteries. That's like a little known fact. You go
to the Federal plant. It's like all of that lead
that they're producing an ammunition is not coming out of
the ground, it's post use coming out of car batteries. Yeah,
it's something like ninety high ninety percentage recycle, which is
a lot because like a car battery three to five years.

(47:48):
And it's funny because they don't have when you buy AMMO.
They don't like like when you buy AMMO from Federal,
it's not like they're like made from recycled materials. It's
like no one even knows this. That's where all that
lead comes from. And then and that's a as we
are driven boy, A good good word usage here, so
far as we were driven into the battery age right now,

(48:09):
that's something that was a big topic of conversation. But
all of a sudden, isn't is okay, Well, where's the
copper coming from? That's what I'm getting to, he says,
So in the sport, you know, like non toxic split
shot for fishing, right, and he goes. But every time
there's a big mind that comes up, who's the first
people to bitch about it? Hunters and anglers. He doesn't

(48:34):
say it by name, but he's probably speaking to the
pebble mine and the headwaters of Bristol Bay right copper
and gold or boundary boundary waters, copper head, copper sulfide mine.
And we're like, no, no, no, no, no, well that
is bad and shoot copper. But tell you what, when
we crossed the border into Mexico, what's sitting right on

(48:57):
the US Mexico border in Sonora? I don't know copper minds.
All that loud banging and mix explosions and stuff that
you hear, those are all copper minds. And as our
buddy Beaeto put it, said, Beato, what are they minding
over there? He said, copper for batteries for you? He says,

(49:23):
how could this is the person that the gentleman that
wrote in very well worded email. How can we possibly
maintain any sort of consistency or credibility if we simultaneously
took the stance of no new copper minds. Where I
like to hunt and fish and everyone please use copper,
I suggest if we cannot do both, at least's current
bullet development technology Stands goes on to say seckle. A

(49:46):
second and equally important issue, he said, it always gets brushed,
deside or ignored is the cost. The fact of the
matter has most led alternative ammunition copper included as expensive.
If demands suddenly jumped, it would become scarce and as
a result, even more expensive. What would we accomplish, then,

(50:08):
is to effectively sideline masses of hunters who either couldn't
find or couldn't afford enough ammunition to site in two
or three rifles and have ammunition for their hunts. And
he pulls as a hypothetical three hunter household. One of
the things that helped us get through a lead a
switch from lead with non toxic shot for waterfowl as

(50:29):
we went to steal. Steel is abundant and still relatively cheap.
It was attainable for your average hunter, not the case
of copper. He points out. You're driving more of a
situation where you have the haves go hunt the have nots, don't.
He says, he still loves the show. I mean it's

(50:52):
all it's all all great points, um, I don't the
absolutism of uh. I think it's taken a little aggressively.
But he was being absolutist you are driving. It's like, well, no,
we uh had a good conversation on this very debatable

(51:16):
topic of copper versus lead, and many of us have
switched over to copper. But there's I don't believe anybody
saying you must shoot this. I feel like I'm sort
of fence sitting on the whole thing. Well, I love
it for for me, it's it's the raptor thing, Like
I do. I have a soft heart when it comes

(51:36):
to that, Like I'm like, oh yeah, if I can
mitigate killing more animals like that, I don't. I don't
want to buy catch dead animals that I don't get
a consume that are dying from secondary lead poisoning by
shooting a copper bullet. That that works for me. Um yeah,

(51:59):
but yeah, you when you say I get it out,
you're saying you're making a consumer choice. Yes, exactly. And
that's kind of like what the guests Chris Parrish. Chris
Parrish was saying. He never came in and said I
think they should outlaw X, Y and Z. Right now,
you're saying, as a consumer, make choices all time, and
there's a I mean, you can still California is just

(52:19):
like the weird outlier example, because they you know, at
recreational ranges, authorized ranges, lead lead is still legal for
recreational shooting at authorized ranges. I don't know that I
believe um. But in every other stay, you know, you
you're still go shoot recreational lead at your recreational range

(52:44):
where it can then be recycled into more lead bullets,
which is what all those ranges do. You know, periodically
they harvest their burms and and are able to sell
it um, which is part to those those places business
plan um. And then you know, when it comes time

(53:06):
to hunt, you can make that consumer choice of shooting
a copper bullet, a handful of copper bullets to make
sure you're zero, and then your your copper bullets for
for the actual hunt. You know, when you get into
the alternatives for shotgun shooting, uh, you're you can spend
some you can spend a hell of a lot more

(53:28):
money shooting business. Then then you're gonna shoot copper bullets
even if you're doing a lot of big game hunting
during the year. But steals still the very effective and
less expensive alternative, toxic alternative. Okay, Danny, I'll set it

(53:49):
up like this. I had because I've driven a lot
of jankie vehicles, right, and somebody at a parking lot
came up to me and was harassing me about how
much oil my vehicles leaking, and I just you know,
I'm not gonna I'm not. I wasn't gonna make confrontation
with him. I was like, yeah, okay, you know, no
big deal, I gotta fix out. But the same with

(54:11):
the lead, right, Like worst lead come from comes from
the earth, right, and so there the same with oil
overs putting it back. You know, obviously I'm not dumping
oil all over. Come on, you're not putting it back
into the earth and putting it back, Like what's your
And that start as to say, what's your take on that? Like,
so obviously I'm not dumping oil all over, right, but

(54:33):
you get a good watch that slick start to form,
So obviously that goes like that's bad, right, that just
goes right to our water source. Um. But like with
the lead, I was thinking about the lead, it comes
from the earth. Obviously there's there's issues when it's getting
processed or whatever. Maybe they're melting it down to make

(54:54):
these babs. Yeah, there's that effect. But as far as
just taking lead and putting it back. So about to
take rattle snake poison and just put it all over
your food? Am I putting it back into the earth? Yeah,
I mean, good point. I'm just you know, no, I mean,
i mean, I'm sorry venom. Yeah, I mean they're making
it sound like, you know, lead or arsenic. If I

(55:16):
put arsenic all over your food, put them back in
the earth, you know. So I think I think it's
an appropriate line of thinking. Um, it's just, uh, these
things came from places in the earth that probably were
not necessarily meant to come to the surface, not on
your food. They were in the earth, but not on

(55:38):
your food. Just thrown it out Like that's a good point, definite. Uh,
Remember how I was saying. I'm like, I'm um, I've
been accused of being like a lead apologist, and I've
been accused of being anti lead, But I'm like very

(56:00):
much like just kind of like exploring the whole area, right,
I'm exploring it. Another one that I can't that people
keep writing in about but I can't formulate an opinion on.
I'm I'm gonna hit you with it. Kel my home state,
there's there's a Yeah, there's a Michigan National Guard in

(56:20):
the Michigan's Upper Peninsula. They're looking to double the size
of UH Camp Grayling, a military base, and to double
it they need to like annex a bunch of state
owned land that's currently open to public hunting and fishing.

(56:40):
People in the up who are losing their you know,
long time man who would stand to lose their long
time sort of like ancestral hunting and fishing grounds are pissed.
They're gonna happens. If it happens to lose accident, they will.
I think it's very safe to say they will lose
a certain an amount of access. And and I struggle

(57:05):
with being Um, I struggle with this one. Then I'll
tell you the two reasons why I struggle with it. Uh.
I'm generally uh not generally, I'm like very supportive. I like,
I like to live in a country with a very
strong military. Okay, I'm very like. I'm not hawkish, like
I don't want to go in vade countries for no reason,

(57:26):
but I'm like hawkish in that I I like want
and support a powerful military. So there's that, right, And
there's the other one that I don't think it would
leave to Like, if this was a how a giant
housing project, it leads to loss of habitat. But what

(57:47):
they're talking about isn't leading to like a net loss
of habitat. They want to use it for training and
stuff in an area where it's not like they're not
like destroying the ground from from a habitat perspect Yeah,
so it's hard to make an opinion about it. Yeah,
if it were a giant you know megamoguls housing development,

(58:08):
I would be irate. I would be like because they're
now it's like gone and and we'll never come back.
But here it's like it's still like for future generations,
that patch of ground is still gonna be there functioning
as an ecosystem. It's still in play, just not open
as good. Well that's not true, right, you are going

(58:28):
to lose some access. Um And in this it's a
perfect conversation point to go with the lead. You know, well,
but it's recycled type of thing, because it's like you
have your cake and eat it too. Um, you want
a big, strong military, but you don't want the military
terry to have all the space to train. Um And
I truly don't know the ins and outs of what

(58:50):
they actually need versus how much they're annexing and all
that stuff. But they do need a lot of space,
and they're only closing it because they're only closing it
when they need it for training. So no one knows
how much that will be. And game management still stays
under Michigan DNR. Yes. And if you look at other
military bases where the public is allowed to hunt, um,
there's a lot of those examples with lots of big

(59:13):
you know, big deer, turkeys, bears, all that fun stuff, um,
And and life kind of goes on, but it's not
going to go on in the same way that you
haven't now right. It's there's, um, you know, lots of
examples of like, oh it's a surprise training day, we
gotta shut the whole base down, and folks are traveling

(59:34):
from out of state and tent on hunting where they've
always hunted, and you know it's like, um, the Griswold
family vacation. Sorry, folks, parks closed. How do you how
do you close the entire state of California? Um. So, yeah,
it's a tricky situation. Um, if there were happening in Montana.

(59:57):
I would not want it to happen because I'm like, well,
I don't to lose any weekends, right, And it's it's
kind of a not in my backyard type of thing.
State of hy He's got a lot of a lot
of history with the military there is, Yeah, and a
lot of the land is owned by military. Yeah. Yeah.
The first time we came out here to hunt, we

(01:00:18):
gotta hunt on this really cool place on Maui and
guys just a big rancher, cattle rancher, and uh, you're
walking around all there's shell fragments and and uh fifty
caliber case sings all over the place, big chunks a
lead laying out there. And then the first day the

(01:00:42):
rancher was like, well, yeah, did you see the crash
plane out there too? It's like no. But then the
second day there here's this giant engine laying out in
the middle of this this field that we came through,
and chunks of plane pirates and all this stuff, and
and he could tell there's more to his story about
how he felt about all that, but it was not good.

(01:01:02):
It's like the U. S. Military just comes over here,
just blows the crap out of our islands. Yeah, I mean,
you know, times changed too. In the up thing for
you folks in the up writing us about this too. Uh,
they're describing what they're gonna be doing is low impact exercises, right,

(01:01:25):
and and it is interesting because they need like cyber
warfare is one of the reasons for the expansion, and
apparently they need like a big buffer uh from civilization
to run whatever it is they do with cyber warfare um,
which ideally doesn't sound like super impactful to the wildlife, habitat, environment,

(01:01:50):
et cetera. Uh, And hopefully it won't be closed down
too much during hunting season if if it does in
fact happen. The other rub is that it's not like
a standard lease with the state, so there's no lease
fee that's coming from the government to the state lands,
which I thought was was interesting Celtic subject matter XT.

(01:02:21):
What you guys as bet Danny and Kenny, what you
guys as best equipped to tell the story of the
person that unless you don't want to the person that
lost their life in the harbor here from a swordfish,
you probably know it better. Danny, Yeah, I know is
uh not as nephew but cousin or I don't know

(01:02:42):
how they're that. It's a big family. Um. From my understanding,
a swordfish swam into the to the harbor, and we
get that like you know, paddling down at Kaho or whatever,
you'd see Marlin's come into the harbor down there randomly,
or there'd be big ah he I don't know, they
just lose their way or get curious. Either way, swordfish

(01:03:03):
finds its way into the harbor. From my understanding, they've
seen it from the surface and they're like, hey right there,
like what look at this? How rare is that? I'm
gonna get in there? And I'm a spirit, So you
got a spirit gone out spirit it. And you know,
from my understanding, you know how you have your shoot
line and it spears the fish, and that shoot lines

(01:03:26):
attached to either a float line or to his gun. Well,
he that thing went and wrapped around a worn bowl.
So then that thing was stuck around a worn bowl
and just swimming there, and you're thinking like, oh man,
it's gonna rip off, or I gotta get in there
and I gotta kill it. So while he was getting
in there to try and get it, the thing poked him,

(01:03:48):
or he shouldn't have poked him, big powerful fish with
a sword on its face. And I don't know if
you've seen those, like broad Bill, the swordfish, they're real
flat bill, not like the marlin bill. We were talking, Yeah,
it's super show are and uh he got poked in
the chest and and I was out, so just in
the in the in the excitement of probably trying to

(01:04:12):
get that fish. And I think we all kind of
get into that state too, of like when something like
that happening, you're not You're just trying to go off
instinct and just like there's a lot going on, and
he probably just thought he had it, He's gonna make
it happen. Um. But yeah, it's sad. I bring that
up because we were looking at a story. Um this

(01:04:35):
is covered by the Guardian, which is funny because it's
a European rag that loves American wildlife attack stories. But
a woman uh in Florida was recently gored by a
hundred pounds sail fish. They had on they were fighting
the fish. Fish charged the boat. She's standing by the

(01:04:55):
She standing up by the wheel in the wheelhouse, by
the wheelhouse, fish charged the boat, jump throut of the
water and paled her she survived them. Oh, I mean
I could see that. Like you when we saw that
marlin get hooked up next to Jonah's boat. You've seen
how that thing was on the surface like that. That's
how they are when you bring them up to the
boat too, and they're jumping right next to the boat.

(01:05:17):
I've seen a bunch of video of them. I've had
them jump next to the boat. Never turned towards the boat.
But it's very nerve racking when you got one that's
we call it green, but still a lot of life
left in it. You know how it is leadering those
fish where here you are, this marlin's got its bill
facing you, you know, coming in towards you, and you're

(01:05:37):
leader and the business and you're trying to get it
closer and closer, and you're trying to bring that head
up where you can get a gaff in it or
unhooked it, whatever you're doing with it. And um, if
they want, they just give it that little bit of
a you know, shake with their tail and they're out
of the water like that. You know, I've seen video
of it, so um, it could be exciting. Yeah, and

(01:05:58):
they got that pokey thing. I mean you've seen that.
I guess that marlin bill too has a bunch of
bacteria on it. Except heard like you get you get
poked by wine. You better get that thing cleaned out. Yeah,
those marlin bills are impressive even dry it out state.
I was saying that the most time you take like
a fish part and dry it all out, like loses
its integrity. Do I mean everything gets like crumbly and

(01:06:18):
they kind of decay, But that thing is still like
you could you could kill somebody that thing, well, they
made weapons out of it, the Hawiians. Steve, would you
add that scar from a bill fish to your list
of bodily attributes that you want to acquire? Not top mine? No, no,

(01:06:40):
not like sharp white and grizzy mulin um sixty eight
miles like reputed to be the fastest fish in the ocean,
which I thought was the short finn mako. But they're
saying these suckers can go sixty eight miles per hour sailfish.

(01:07:02):
They got that big sale too, and they just flip
that thing up and they can parachute them around and
stop on a dime. That it was funny read about
that that injury and the injury you're talking about as
we have coming up here. We have an expert ah
who's an expert archaeologist who studies the Coronado expedition. So

(01:07:26):
Coronado was a Spanish conquisador and he had this crazy
ass adventure where they left New Spain. So they left
Mexico and this is in fifty and Coronado made it
all the way up into Kansas in so he made

(01:07:51):
it all up all the way up into the Great
Plains of Kansas, and it was funny. Is if you
separate Here's here's one of the main things I think
about interesting about Coronado. The distance that separates Coronado's visit
to Kansas from Lewis and Clark's visit to the Great
Plains is the amount of time that separates us sitting

(01:08:15):
here right now from the French and Indian War. Crazy.
You're like European history in the in the interior of
the country runs deep forty uh So, to bone up
for this guest we're having on, I'm reading the book

(01:08:37):
about Coronado and like the random ways people die. There's
like one of his lieutenants, one of his officers, they
had some sheep with them and they had a dog.
They had a greyhound with him. For some reason, the
greyhound chase of the sheep one day and the guys
pissed at the greyhound for crass and the sheep all
the time. And he rides after it on his horse

(01:08:59):
and throws a lance scare the dog off. Okay, the
lance sticks in the ground, The horse runs, and the
handle of the lance enters his groin and punctures is
bladder and he dies some days later. Holy smokes. You know.

(01:09:22):
I was at a thought as to we always like
to think back on on these times of like, oh God,
how crazy would it have been to be on that trip,
like all the unknowns and stuff. But I bet at
that time they'd be just like us, being like, oh
we have we have GPS, we have a track, we

(01:09:45):
have all this stuff. And at that time they were like,
we have a sex stent, we have a map, like
we have the best technology out there. We're we're better
than anybody in the past has ever been. Like high confidence.
Well get into this. There's a guy. There's a Native
American who celebrated among his people for having led the

(01:10:10):
Coronado Expedition on a wild goose chase where he said,
oh no, man, there's this amazing like city of gold
and led them away from where they were harassing his people.
This is one telling we're getting it all this way
at the Coronado ex the Cornado expert on when Coronado

(01:10:30):
gets up in the Kansas and they're like, this guy
is full of it. The execute him for having fed
him false information. Uh, it's just like, here's the other
thing I'll say about the Coronado expedition, Like if you
want to get a sense of like where they're at mentally,
one of the guys on the expedition has a dream

(01:10:53):
in which he kills his commander. He has he dreams
that he kills Coronado and Mary's Coronado, his wife. He
comes and confesses to Coronado that he had this dream.
Coronado doesn't punish him, but he's not allowed to continue
on the expedition because they need to protect the mission.

(01:11:16):
I like, I like, I like, it's just so like
you know what I mean, Well, how about the mental
state too. It's like, yeah, we're an invading army, We're
stealing from your people, We're giving you communicable diseases. This
isn't pleasant, but how dare you lie to us? Yeah,

(01:11:39):
well no, because they're in their take their take on
it was this. They were baffled when people didn't go
along with the program. Their take on it is your
worries are over. They're kind of like the mob when
when he would approach tribe, like, your worries are over. Um,
you now live under the jurisdiction of Spain. But no
one will ever mess with you ever again. And it's

(01:12:04):
not taking it's take it or leave. It's like again
and if you don't agree, we will mess with you.
But that's the selling point. Your your concerns are over.
In order for you to say thank you, we'd like
you to do x Y and I'm here to bestow
upon you a great gift. Oh you gotta become Christians. Yeah,

(01:12:25):
here's the deal. No one will ever mess with you again.
Any enemies you have, forget that they exist. You become Christian,
Your problems are through. And they'd be like, why would
these people not get on board? Like, look, we're giving
them more to come. This is fascinating man. And they

(01:12:49):
did it all in a bronze hat. That's such like. Uh,
The Fishing Guide writes in I always wanted to become
a fishing guide. Becomes a fishing guide. He's he guides
alligator gar in Houston, Texas, but he has a problem
of finding dead bodies. They recently found two. He found

(01:13:14):
one and his buddy found one. Uh. Dead bodies bound
up inside recycling bins, dumped in off dumped in the marsh.
He contacts the police to be like, dude, this is
kind of stressing me out, and they tell him I
wouldn't worry about it. It It seems like they were killed
somewhere else and just dumped there. That's almost like a

(01:13:35):
modern art type of thing. He's like, where do I
draw the line? Put it? Put a body inside a
recycling man? You have? But here's the thing. If what
if you come across this guy dumping these recycling bands,
what he's getting there exactly? Like now, I don't want
to quit. This has always been my dream, but like,
how do you like it's hard to work in this environment?

(01:13:57):
And he cites a bunch of other like just the
proximity to cry him when you're guarding there. Last one
I was talking about. We we were talking about the carp,
the um asiatic carp species that have joined the European

(01:14:17):
invasive carp in certain watersheds. So you we've always said
we've had common carp here since all over one of
the primary I don't know, do you guys have Do
you guys have common carp in your waterways in Hawaiian
not really Okay, nuded as Alaska. Uh, it's one of
the top invasive species in the country as common carp

(01:14:39):
and then in recent decades it's been going on forever.
Now big head silver, what else? Yeah, that's the silver
is like the Asian carp but the right they are, Yeah,
but they're two different species. They these are like like
a plankton feeding largely orbivorous carp species. Is they brought

(01:15:00):
him into the country to clean aquaculture facilities, so they'd
use them at calfish farms and they turn his carp
out and these carpe living there and they sucked the
algae and stuff up and help. But then with flooding
they all get into the river system. Analysis yea, the
whole ecological disaster. We covered that and I shared what
I shared the sentiment of a biologist who said to me,

(01:15:22):
I don't see a way out of this if it's
not a biological if it's not a disease solution, but
there seems to be limited appetite for introducing a virus
where they've been able to eradicate fish species and like
connected bodies of water. It's typically like a three pronged

(01:15:43):
approach where they use some mechanical deterrence against the species
during their their spawning season, so they prevent them from
going to where they need to go to spawn. You know,
they're preferred spawning areas, um than they use uh poison

(01:16:05):
and then other like yeah um, but the social tolerances
for all this stuff are pretty low. And then you
know there's also like significant like by catch, and then
in these areas that are like super when you wrote
on a water system, everybody dies. Yeah, but they'll now

(01:16:30):
then do it. It's like, um, what was that that
thing in Vietnam? You gotta burn burn the village to
save it. They'll remember, like they've had breakouts of non
natives and they're like this three miles of the river
is getting cooked, and kill everything in a stretch of
river just to get the culprit right, trusting that it

(01:16:53):
will recover over time, you know yeah yeah, um, so yeah,
it's and and there's the other mechanicals like traps, gill nets,
stuff like that, but it's uh and then wrote known
is obviously like a water soluble um god South American

(01:17:15):
root um. And so they have a bunch of models
as to how much they can put in and then
at what stages throughout the water column or river system
that it will dissipate for to be like non lethal,
because I think at a certain point like fish can recover,

(01:17:35):
but it's it's suffocates fish, right, Isn't that how it works? Yeah?
Did you see where me and Yanni went with those
um those dudes that use the different route. I can't
read the word they used for its sound like tabasco,
but it wasn't tabasco. Yeah, it's like it's basco sauce there.
It's like barbasco. They had a root, they had a plant,

(01:17:56):
and they went and they poisoned the fish, but it
just mostly killed them. And then they go shoot them
with their bows and then the effects would wear off.
But while they were mostly dead, they'd be up gulping
at the surface and they just go out shoot them
all with their bows and it was like a regular
fish harvest method. And they go they got the plant
growing all around their house, all around their village. You know.

(01:18:19):
I've done that in rural China, like with these Chinese ladies,
um who would just go and they would like sing
songs and a tribe and they would smash up this
route I forget what it was called. And then they
would just put it upstream and it would temporarily. What
they would say is make the fish go to sleep,
you know, and all the fish would float and we

(01:18:42):
would just go catch them with their nets before they'd
wake up. And then you see them waking up and
swimming off. What these guys would do to to to
improve it as they'd be inside channels and the first
thing they do is build rock walls to slow the
current down, poison the side channel, shoot what they wanted,
then open up the barricade to let clean water flush

(01:19:03):
through to help resuscitate the fish they didn't want either way.
Long story short, Australia is poised to do what I said,
there's little appetite to do. They are considering The Australian
government is considering using a type of herpes virus as

(01:19:23):
a biological agent to reduce the population to carp. Yeah,
carp herpes is a thing, um, and we recently had
a breakout here in the in the US, which is
really interesting. They think it came from domestic goldfish being
released into waterways. Let that be uh notice for your parents,

(01:19:45):
just just say no when your kid wants that old
nasty goldfish swimming around in the plastic bag at the fair.
This summer goldfish brought herpes in, that's the theory. Yeah,
Or flush it down the toilet like we used to. Yeah,
not that, brother, turn it, loosen your water away, or
just eat it that it's got hurt pies. Let's see it.

(01:20:09):
When you're burying your next coffee plant, throw a few
goldfish in the bottom of it. Yeah. Uh, where do
we start? Tell me you're fit? Like, what was your
favorite thing of the days that we spent fish together? Kimmy,
I already have my um. Oh gosh, well that was
just one day. I had four highlights of our whole

(01:20:32):
little diving trip we just had. There'd be a lot
of highlots and do you want men to say them?
I feel like, okay, it would definitely be you getting
your first mohi um. That was a for sure highlight
because that mah he was being really tricky at first,

(01:20:53):
nice big bull ma. He got me so excited to
see it there. I haven't seen one like that big
in a while. They've been showing up small lately, and
so to see that and having me such a tricky fish,
I mean, I feel like you should just tell a story.
Now you got to tell because he was so basically, um,
first time blue water diving for you, right, not really anyway,

(01:21:19):
we did like what I guess like borderline that for
about an hour one time it was like a little
de two around otherwise and nothing happened. Well, we jump
in at a buoy, um fad, and I immediately see
this big bull mahi and um and nothing I can do,

(01:21:40):
like we'll bring this mohi into as member. I was
like during the flash or throwing fish and it was
just staying on the outskirts. Jimmy keeps the fish talked
in her sleeve. Yeah what kind of fishes that? That
was in a coole a scat macro, I believe, but
she keeps talked in her sleeve. And then you'll look
like when you're on the so, I mean you're at
that point in time, we're so like, but all these

(01:22:04):
plagics are like, I mean that fish was almost like
like at the surface, I mean interesting in the surface
where you gotta go down to almost look over and
see him. But keeps that fish. And then you see
a fish way off and one trick is the come
up and literally throw the fish like a baseball to
try to land it over yonder and get its attention.

(01:22:24):
He would pay attention. I would get their attention with
the splash, and he kind of turn and look at it,
but he was not interested in not committing, and so
that was a bummer. But we decided to do another drift,
you know, getting it at the same we drifted past
the buoy. We decided to do it again anyway, and
this time, as we're setting up, we just see these
huge pilot whales everywhere, which are pretty impressive, intimidating apex

(01:22:51):
predators of the ocean that just love to gobble up ma.
He he's in tuna and have big old teeth. And I,
you know, I was like, you guys still want to
get in, and everyone still wanted to get in, so
we did. Because it's a famous story where one grabbed
like they grabbed people now and then oh yeah, yeah,
people have died because of pilot whales pulling them under

(01:23:12):
and toying with them, for sure. Um. But when we
get in. As soon as we jumped in, UM, you
didn't see it. But I looked at the buoy from
far far away, and I could see that same bowl mahi,
and this time he was doing super duper tight circles
around that buoy, and I just was like, Oh, he's

(01:23:33):
really scared because there's all these pilot whales all over
and um, and so he's just trying to find shelter.
He's wrapped around the bowery totally, and it was amazing,
like he was like like glue to it in a
circle totally, like just conforming his whole body around this buoy.
And at the time you just took a nice graceful

(01:23:53):
dive to check out what was below you. But I
saw him so far away. As soon as you even
just dipped under, he did his last circle and left,
and I was just like, shoot, he's still going to
be hard to get, you know. UM. But I I
turned to Justin Um and I said, I said, you know,
I just saw this buoy doing these tight circles. I

(01:24:13):
think it's scared to pilot whales, and I think it's
so scared that if we ever dive, we're not going
to have a chance. But maybe if we could just flow,
if he ever comes back, if he ever comes back
and does that again, if we just kind of float
up to it, maybe we can get it. And Justin's like,
oh yeah, okay. Later he told me he was just
was thinking like that will never work. Um. But anyway, Steve,

(01:24:36):
we see some oh no's, we see that, some other things, um,
but there's not really too much going on. We're not
getting close to anything. And maybe after like ten or
fifteen minutes, I just saw the ma he coming back,
and so I just grabbed Steve and I just said
that that mom, he's going to go straight to the buoy.
It's going to start doing these circles around the buoy.
You cannot dive, but you have to somehow get to

(01:24:59):
that buoy. I'm gonna stay back. I don't want too
much pressure on it. But when you go there, you
just have to stay on the surface. You have to
drift your like driftwood. You know, you are not a hunter,
you are not a pilot whale. You are just a
piece of wood drifting see how close you can drift
to this mohi and then shoot it from the surface,
don't go under and just shoot it. And and to

(01:25:20):
just stay back and watch in such such high anticipation
as you and Justin who was filming right behind you,
just it was like a quirktoon of you guys, just
like just like drifting in, kicking whenever the mall he
turned away from you, not kicking when he was facing you,
and just that gap that you closed so patiently, so slowly,

(01:25:42):
um and then just watching you shoot that mohi. That
was by far like a huge highlight. That was so cool.
That was a highlight for me and and uh generous
of you because I realized, like I don't notice that,
I don't notice things that good. Yeah, well it's gonna
take You guys are always like oh there's that, there's that,

(01:26:04):
there's that. Yeah. I never get to be the one
that's like, hey, well it's not you. That you never
be the one, because my next highlight would be you
getting your first oh no, Like this is just incredible
that you got your first mohi and your first own
on this trip, but you getting your first oh no no,
that was something that you did on your own, like

(01:26:28):
I might have put a backup shot in it, but
you you sighed on your own. I wasn't. I didn't
even see it. You know, you saw it. I was
watching cow. I was watching you down underwater trying to
take a shot on a little tuna, and I was
so fixated on you that I didn't see these ohals swimming.
Steve saw them immediately, did his thing, went after one

(01:26:50):
and shot when um and and yeah, I just remember
looking down and when you came back up, more tuna
came into I was saying, you know, dive, Steve, dive.
And I looked up and had no idea where you were.
You weren't anywhere. I kind of panicked, and I felt
afraid that I lost you. Little sharky that day. It
was very sharky. And it's just like, you know, I
just always try to count my duckies and keep you

(01:27:11):
guys all in order, and when when one goes missing,
it really freaked me out, goes high. Yeah, but Danny
was on the boat, thank goodness, keeping an eye and
everybody and just was like Steve's here, and he's on
and to swim over and see that you shot an
Oh no, like that was crazy. You did it all

(01:27:31):
on your own. It was great and the not easy
fish to shoot. No, it's not like that's huge, both
of you. It was awesome. Oh yeah I was. I
was pumped too, Yeah, yeah, I mean coming it was
a goat rope from the way outside, coming in sharks

(01:27:52):
and running line all over the place and all the stuff,
and I just I couldn't fathom that that thing made
it to you whole. Oh yeah, gimme shot one, and
man it happened fast. Shot a big fish. I don't like,
maybe more than that. Yeah, it was the same, just

(01:28:15):
like shot one and its half of it just vanishing
that things mouth. Yeah, we had the shark next to us,
and that shark just be lined straight to you guys,
and right there I knew, like, oh man, they got
some action or something's going on. So I picked my
head up and look, and sure enough, you guys are
fighting a fish, and that shark just came over. Because

(01:28:35):
there's no way from where we were that shark could
not see what you guys were doing. The visibility of
this trip was was absolutely staggering, I think as I've
ever been able to see in the ocean. It's good.
We were outside of visibility range, so that shar felt something.
As soon as she shot that fish, that shark was

(01:28:56):
like oh boy, yeah, he was like chilled down, you know,
like lower right hand corner of the visibility spectrum. And
then all of a sudden he just goes yeah. I
mean they have those lateral lines designed to just pick
up vibrations of a fish and distresses. So when I
shot my own no and it started doing it's, you know,

(01:29:17):
dying thing. Um, that shark just closed that gap in
a matter of seconds. And I always have theories of oh,
what to do to save your fish I'm getting eaten
by a shark, But there are sometimes like that where
there's just nothing you could do. He just committed right
away and just gobbled that thing. Well we got we
got a third of it. Yeah, which still Manasashi me.

(01:29:40):
These are oceanic white tip sharks, and I know you
still got more highlights to go, but I want to
tell you one of my highlights is they travel with
or the they have pilot fish, yeah, which travel with them.
They do. It's like a blue striped fish. Yeah, go
look at shark potols. You see the pilot fish hanging
out them, and we got to talk about the table,

(01:30:02):
like whether they look like tasty little fish. They looked
very edible. I never thought of it that way until
Steve said. She took a three pronged spear in shot.
It was like person walking a dog, and she picked
off his pilot fish, his pomeranium. She picked off the
sharks pilot fish. And I don't know if the shark

(01:30:24):
would be mad. And then I want to get you
for having gotten his pilot fish. But he had to
and he didn't need to carry. He didn't seem to care.
I want when he said that, he said, what does
the pilot fish taste like? And I said, I don't know.
We both just looked at it and we're like, that
thing looks so tasty, let's see if we can get it.
It is a weird thing to to say that, Like

(01:30:48):
you're impressed by how a shark can move in the water.
It's like, well, no, no ship, but to witness it
and in a bunch of different scenarios, they can just
do whatever they want, even when you're surrounded by like
very graceful, capable people in the water. Likely it's there

(01:31:11):
if they want, if they want you you're getting it,
you know what I mean. Like, that's why I like
not one of those starts want to get after us,
because if they did, you'd know it. You know, as
much as we bump them off and stuff like, there
would be almost nothing you could do if he really
get serious about it. I know you got more you

(01:31:37):
want to highlights, but I just want to have observation. Uh.
You hear so much about UM human impacts in the
ocean and like ghost nets. So a ghost that would
be like like our ghost traps, like abandoned fishing equipment
that continues to function. UM. Where we trap crabs and
shrimp in Alaska, for instance, you have to regular traps

(01:32:01):
or there's basically a slit in the nylon mesh netting
and you sew that slit up with cotton twine and
then the regulation specify the diameter like the thickness of
the twine and meant to be that if you lose
or abandon the trap in short order, that cotton twine
will degrade and the trap will cease to function because

(01:32:23):
they're not. She gets in the trap, it dies, It
baits and more stuff that comes into the trap. It dies.
Like when you said, a shrimp pot, and shrimp get
in there, and then octopus gets in there, and then
like it just continues to kill ship. So we go
up to a buoy and there is a hunk of
it looks like cardon, not fishing net. It look like
a hunk of cargo netting, like a hunk of cargo

(01:32:44):
net hung up on the booty chain. And in the
hunk of cargo net is though, is a big rainbow
runner gill netted on it. Still the weirdest thing like
when I saw what I like, I ran through all
these like what like did someone store it there? Like

(01:33:06):
like I couldn't understand, just like alive in the net.
He somehow jammed his head into a scrap no bigger
than a half bed sheet of cargo netting hanging off
a booty chain and he tried to swim through it.
Then so there was that, Well, I feel like that
might have happened somewhere, because you think that shark would
have got after it right like that. That's the second

(01:33:27):
thing I thought, Why did the shark not eat the
fish that stuck in the net. It was like it
just happened. Then we saw two sharks carrying big leaders
with hooks. I saw a tuna carrying a leader with
a hook, and then we saw another shark that had
gotten himself tangled up in a hunk of rope where

(01:33:50):
he was like lassoed by a hunk of rope that
has had seven ft of barnacle and crusted rope hanging
off of it, cutting into his skin. One of the
camera guys grabbed the rope and tried to saw the
rope off. As soon as you grab the rope, he
had all that open wound and a suit. That was
the only thing that you could poke that shark in
the nose all day long. It wouldn't bother him. The

(01:34:10):
one thing that bothered that shark is when you grab
that rope and then he take off. You couldn't get
the rope cut off. The rope around like literally like
a bucking bull at the fair right like so it's
perfectly like mid section just ahead of the dorsal fan
with the tag end coming off, like somebody was going

(01:34:31):
to straddle the shark behind the dorsal and hang onto
that thing. You'll absolutely see that shark in the show.
Would it almost looked like like it that beautiful big
shark trailing that rope, and it was so symmetrical the
way it was around him and just laid on him
and had all that stuff grown on it. It almost
was like it was like artistic. It looked like shark

(01:34:54):
wearing a Yeah, like had like an artistic quality if
you could, if you could arrest it from everything. It
was like this kind of like beautiful thing of him
coming up through the water column trailing that heavy frayed
But how in the world did he get that on him?
I still badly wanted to cut that thing off, just
to be like, cut that thing off. What what is

(01:35:16):
a rainbow runner? Is the Hawaiian word? Um? Is it
part of a I would guess it's a part of
the mackerel family, would be my guest, but I don't know.
Also the magerel or jack, but I don't know. I
don't know. But they look really similar to the like

(01:35:38):
I mean, I was actly like the yellowtail but in California.
But they have similar things to him, you know, a
little bit more slender, a little bit more sleek, but
got that bright orange tail or by yellowtail. And when
you consider like the vastness of the ocean, and obviously
like those booties do attract life, and that's why folks
go out there and fish. But like Jack to come

(01:36:00):
across this rainbow runner, which is a jack stuck in
that cargo net in a place where the sharks were
looking to eat food. So yeah, I would go with
the theory that it just happened, But like, what are
the odds of, like in this giant blue pond, bottomless pond,

(01:36:21):
to come across something that just happened on the day
that you just happened to be there is bizarre to me,
Like just weird how stuff happens. It was a score.
It's just like I saw Steve trying to get it
free and I'm like, we'll stick a stick a knife
in his brain first, Like yeah, yeah, I wasn't sure
if you're trying to free m or what. But it's

(01:36:41):
a good eating fist. No. I used the word rescue,
but that wasn't quite the word. That was funny later
when it was dead and I was about, you're like,
look at the one we rescued. Hight next highlight it
was when the crew started fishing and Seth hooked into
it too, was cranking it up like a champ and
you weren't giving the gaff up because um, Sam was

(01:37:04):
cranking up tuna on the other side, and so you
needed it for her. But our fish was boat side
already and we needed a gaff and and I just
found this little baby gaffs a little handheld like like
a little captain hook hook. Yeah, not even for a
teen incher um And was it a metal one yeah yeah,

(01:37:25):
And just just got to stick it with that and
help get it in the boat. That was really exciting,
Like I just started jumping up and down and clapping. Yeah.
I was like frantically looking for a gaff and I
turned around the fishes in the boat. It was like,
oh great, there we hit the tuna. Like it was like,

(01:37:46):
well anybody can catch tuna type of timing, right, It
was like bagoes in the water. You wait a minute,
thirty seconds. Yeah. Yeah, that was pretty rare for it
to be like that, and amazing for you guys to
see that they're jumping out of the water too, Like
that was so fun. Gaff and tune is stressful. So
so you guys got a long leader and you're and

(01:38:08):
you're reel up and eventually get where the leader hits
the rod tip you can't reel anymore. And then someone
puts on gloves or not and starts wrapping her hand
around that leader and bringing the fish up. Danny's telling
me like, I'll tell you when to gaff it. So
I'm thinking he's gonna say gaff it when it's like,
you know, tucker it out, like laying at the surface,

(01:38:29):
drag along the side of the boat, and he's you
can look down and he's down cutting big cookies circles
and I'm like just chilling, thinking like eventually it'll be
up here and it'll be like placid, you know, not
hooking in the boat. And I'm not even kind of ready.
And I think he's like now, I'm like, oh, I
didn't know you meant like that. Do you think that gaff?

(01:38:51):
And new pulled up? But then we were with the
dude named Jonah who fishes tuned commercially, and don't I'm
sure you've seen this move. He gets them on the
leader and just has a baseball bat and not even
gaffed it gets it open. Yeah, if you can see,
it's just cold cock and it stuns it. Yeah, is

(01:39:13):
there coming up? You can look at where the hook is,
so if you know, you've got a good hook placement.
You got some time, you know, But yeah, put them
to sleep. Those fish respond to a blow to the
head like you wish other fish would. Yeah, I mean

(01:39:34):
to blow to the head on one of those is
like dunzo. Yeah, I feel like it's a bigger fish too,
and rerecing pretty big bats like they don't, you know,
move much when you hit them. Hit some small and
they kind of go with the flow. This thing has
got some mass behind it. The efficiencies between recreational technique
and commercial technique, there's there's some big differences there. Like

(01:39:58):
Joan is on the side of the boats, uh, cranking
the thing up, grabbing the leader bat, gaff in the
boat like onto the next one, and we're over making
videos and he would like whack it with the bat
and reach down in his gills pull that stuff out

(01:40:19):
with his hand and then pulled in the boat like
and we're like over there trying to cut it out
real nice with knives and whatnot. That's one dude. I
would not want to get punched by man. What do
you guys call sucker punch in Hawaii false crack. I
would not want to get false cracked by him man
false Craig meta bac one. Okay, how many more? Get

(01:40:45):
one more highlight? Um, I guess my just be um
seeing that beautiful ecosystem of everything from bait fish to
my he's in ono's and shark all underneath just that
floating barrel we found so so not you know, the
expected that, not the state buoy, but we just came

(01:41:05):
across like a piece of trash basically, um, a white
plastic floating barrel that didn't even look like it had
been in the ocean that long and they didn't have
that much growth on it. But the minute you get
in the water is just crazy what a universe is
around it. That was exciting. Someone brought up the obvious
point that can't be ignored. Who was it that said

(01:41:26):
something about, you know everything, plastics in the ocean, plastics
in the ocean. I think you brought it up. Seth
brought it up. And you jump in under a plastic
barrel floating to the ocean and the holy ship, Well,
how could this be bad? Yeah, it's like this barrels.
Steve made this comment about these sharks being such jerks,

(01:41:50):
and he's like, they don't learn. They repeatedly do the
same things. And like, one thing that was real interesting
shark behavior was we we observed these white tips biting
Danny's flashers, which is like understandable, they're meant to attract fish,
but the same shark would hit it have a very

(01:42:10):
negative reaction, like irritated, like irritated, did not like it, visibly,
did not like body language, just like yeah, I don't
like that. Thirty seconds later, he'd come back and try
it again, you know. And this says Steve, was like, yeah,
they're like high school jerks that stuck around town and
still bully the outside the canvas and bully bully was

(01:42:36):
just like god, like, why didn't these sharks just like
leave the bully and to go do something good with
their lives instead of just hanging out up being bullies.
But yeah, I do feel like that oceanic white tip
under that plastic barrow that was the one that left
and like did something with his life. He was cool. Yeah.
The conclusion like, this is it, this is the opposite,

(01:42:57):
This is here's the grown up gut sick all the
ass slapping and went and found his own little place.
And yeah, and that I mean the sharks really really
was the top highlight for me, like watching all the
different behavior, watching watching and move around, and and then

(01:43:18):
being like, oh my gosh, you really gotta pay attention
to these the agro ones. And but then also like
some of the more beautiful things that I saw, The
things that are stuck in my head are like the
bait fish congregating around the sharks, and then then just
doing these big lazy circles and kind of like half
spins through the sunlight and stuff was unbelievable, like really

(01:43:42):
really amazing. And like those pompano mahi that that the
cool the laid back shark he was doing something with
his life was swimming with Like that was just an
awesome scene to just sit and watch over and over again.
One of the things I appreciate about the the way
the oceanic white tips move is you imagine most fish

(01:44:03):
when they're like ascending or descending a water column, a
lot of times they'll do a movement. It's almost like
someone going up a spiral staircase. Right. They keep there,
they keep their orientation relative to like the planet, right,
like his peck fins are down and they'll climb and descend.

(01:44:24):
But stay basically upright. But the way those sharks like
they really are living in a three dimensional space where
when they're ascending the water column, they're perfectly vertical, Like
they climb perfectly vertically and they're gliding to something you

(01:44:45):
don't see, like you know, you realize when you see
you're like, not many fish do that do? I mean
like climb like like totally vertically. They're like they're like
a person going up a straight ladder, and it's like
they're just divorced from yeah, like of normal mechanics of
what you imagine, you know, how things move. And I
saw that vertical orientation was when they made up their

(01:45:07):
mind to go from point A to point right. They're like, huh,
what is that? Diver? It's such a crazy thing. Like
I feel like the sharks just add I mean, those
the bully sharks like just add a whole another like
layer of kind of like stress in your mind. Do
you know that you have to kind of deal with
because they sometimes will get a little aggressive or nippy

(01:45:31):
at you and um, and it's just it's one more
thing that you have to like think about while trying
to hunt, as if like trying to hold your breath,
dive down and shoot a tuna. Isn't enough to think about, like,
then you also have to think about the sharks on
your back. And it's such a crazy and literally on
your back. There were there were dives where you couldn't

(01:45:54):
divorce the shark from like the outline of the diver,
and so you can't always just look straight ahead at
your target because you always kind of have to be
checking what the shark's doing and if if you have
to poke it away or whatnot. And that just it
changes everything. It changes your movement, it changes everything, you know.
And so it really is like this dance of um

(01:46:18):
trying not to care about the sharks to the point
where you can hunt, but not turning that care off
so much where you're complacent and going to get yourself
in trouble. And it really is this weird fine line.
But it helps to have your buddies like all around
you poking them off. And that's what I think we
always had to have trust in. It's like, Okay, I'm
doing this dive, I'm after this fish. If it's a

(01:46:40):
shark about to eat me, somebody's going to poke it. Yeah,
And and and that's that's definite faith because we we
had situations where there were five divers, six divers in
the water and everybody essentially in a circled wagon. For me,
sen poking at the same shark, he's like not getting

(01:47:02):
the message that he's not wanted in the circle, right, Yeah,
it's wild. Yeah, I know that first day, you know,
Steve it asked what he what I expect to see
out there, and instead of saying, moll he's on those
you know, my first thing was sat sharks. And I
kind of felt bad about that, right because like I
didn't want to put like any negative spin on it.

(01:47:24):
I just knew that we were going to see him
and that was gonna be like obstacle to overcome just
getting everbody comfortable with it. And that was and I
told you guys that, like, hey, first day, first couple
of days, let's get in the water and just get comfortable,
especially before we go to some of those spots we
went to because I knew there'd be more of them.
Let's just get kind of an idea on how they
move and stuff. And I mean two to be able

(01:47:48):
to relax through that, for you guys is huge because
I've spent a ton of time with him. Kimmy spent
a ton of time with them. I don't want to
say it makes it easier, but it definitely makes it easier,
you know, because I kind of know what to expect
a little bit, and you know, you could always have
that one. But regardless for you guys not having that
much time with that type of shark and everything, I
felt like you got you know, I totally it took me,

(01:48:12):
like years, I feel like, to like get that comfortable
with sharks. You know, like at first win, sharks will come.
I just wanted to leave the situation or if a
shark took my fish, I was just like, we are
not getting back in right here, you know. And it
just it just took like repetition in years and whatnot
until I was able to develop that comfort of like, Okay,

(01:48:36):
we can still hunt and bomb belbos together. Um, but
you guys are just doing it well. I mean a
lot of your confidence comes from your compadres and in
the water red it's like, well, these folks were here
because these folks know what they're doing and this is
how they behave That's I mean, that's you gotta adapt

(01:48:59):
that type of behavior pretty quick, not like Jimmy, Jimmy
and Danny don't know. They don't seem to know what
they're doing out here with the with the local wildlife,
you know. And I try to keep like a reality
chap too because I have friends that they get real
complacent with it. So I always in the back of
my head like, hey, that thing's the real deal, you know,

(01:49:21):
Like I said, if that thing wants you, it's it's done.
So look at the own right the owner, like that
is a stick of dance muscle, and it was. It
was vaporized and just in that shakes belly immediately in seconds. Yeah. Yeah,

(01:49:42):
there's a big spinal column that runs down the middle
of it. I got one last thing I want to
say about fishing. Um, we're fighting in a tuna and
the tuna was pretty played out. It's cut close to
the boat. And also just and I said, oh, he's
running for days like that, ain't him? Because yeah, like

(01:50:05):
a shark and grab him and just ahead of for
the depths with him. And I was like oh. And
then pretty soon the line Kimmy's about to say, I
should have reeled faster, but I was paying attention and
I don't know if there was anybody reeling faster on
the boat for other fish? I mean, yeah, it was

(01:50:27):
just one of those right, Like it's tiring, you know.
It's just like when you're reeling that thing in and
it can be tiring. Yeah, absolutely, but I mean give me,
Yeah it was fast. I mean it was to the
boat fast. And I think that was a nice fist. Yeah,
I thought it wasn't. Yeah, we paid they we paid

(01:50:49):
the tax now, yeah, we paid our Yeah. Yeah, I'm
just curious of what that shark looked like to be
able to Yeah, and like he said, what a meal?
You know, if that was that was a forty pounder,
what a meal? I will say the inner guards of
the white tips to write, it's like, you know, I

(01:51:12):
definitely like get your confidence in playbook from the folks
that you're swimming with. But I bet I picked up
the silhouette of silhouette and outline of a white tip
in my brain a lot faster than a lot of
the praise species that were after. Like I was, I
was like way out there, I'm like, oh, I see

(01:51:33):
you coming with the white tips. Danny want to close
the question for you. Uh. We recently had a guest
on Seth Cantner came on the show and he um
grew up outside of Cotsbue, was raised in a sod hut,
living off the land, and he was laughing about their

(01:51:56):
perspective on caribou, you know, like in in The Hate
of Cultures, and the way he was brought up would
be like if someone gets a caribou, it's was it fat? Right?
Meaning all they're looking at is the rump? Yeah? And
he said and then folks like me or like was
it big? Meaning antlers? Uh, We're going to spend the

(01:52:21):
next few days bow hunting for feral sheep ferrel sheep
in Hawaii? Am I Like? What are your thoughts on
the fact that I want to get like a lamb?
I have no problem with that? Is that a normal desire? Ok? So,
like I don't know if it's a normal desire, because yeah,
there is that like for us definitely, Yeah, like that

(01:52:42):
is for us. It's food, you know, like a lot
of the hunting idea. I'm not very picky even when
I go LK hunting and stuff. Um, I'm not very
picky obviously, right, Like if the opportunities they're cool, but
especially at home, we're not very picky. It's food, you know,
we're looking at it. It's like, okay, there, this is
the grocery store. And sometimes you know, whatever you want

(01:53:04):
to say, oh that one's tender or whatever. Sometimes you
just don't want that much meat either, you know. So
there's no like, um, there's no stigma against shooting a
lamb like there would be if you targeted a spotted deer.
Phone now, and and I can be a little picky
with it, like the last time I shot a smaller one.
You know, I'm looking like, okay, here's an email. Is

(01:53:24):
it pregnant? Is it? You know, how old is it?
And they're like, okay, this is kind of like a
year ling that's not pregnant, Like this is probably a
good one I could shoot, you know. So there's a
little bit of a thought process that goes behind it. Um,
But I got no problem with that. I think it
just really helps that. Um, there's such invasive species here

(01:53:44):
in Knowwaii, So whether you're going to shoot a little
access fun or whether you're going to shoot a little
you know, lamb, like it is also like good for
the forest that you're doing. So, um, it doesn't matter
what size, right because it's just like taking one out
is just like one less of like a very overpopulated species.

(01:54:11):
I got a couple of days hunting with a mutual
friend of these guys, Sean Hashazaki averund Maui, and we
were walking back to the truck and we got into
this like very nice, even tall grass meadow and we
started walking through there there were access deer fawns like
I am not exaggerating, like jack rabbit size, and they

(01:54:36):
just started like popping out of the grass in front
of us, popping, popping, popping, And I keep hearing Sean
saying this word behind me, and I'm kind of quasi
paying attention, and then I finally turned to him and
he's like tasty. It's like it's tasty. It's tasty. And
then I was like, oh, okay, got it, and then
I missed him, didn't get I mean, nobody thinks twice,

(01:54:59):
right like they see lamptops on the menu. Nobody thinks twice.
And it's sad that are our general population kind of
just a little bit more disconnected from where where their
food comes from. But yeah, no one thinks slice about
lamptops on the on the menu. So we brought up
the age of domestic livestock at slaughter the one thing,

(01:55:19):
and I regret it that I shielded my kids from um.
Not the ian. I shield them from all kinds of
things when it comes to internet whatever, but the ones
sort of like natural um food acquisition act right like
like a like a very human, natural ancestral activity that

(01:55:42):
I've shielded my kids from, and I regret it. Was
slaughtering lamps um. And I was like, man, I thought
about it. I had my body take him over to
check out this little pond while they were slaughter in
these lambs. And then later I'm like many they why not? Yeah?
I mean totally, I think I read, but for some

(01:56:05):
reason it just like struck me, like like I should
send them off. And then then I'm like, that was
chicken ship. I just shot a little ram um like
a week ago, and I thought about that part in
your book where you sent the kids offsously didn't have
to see it, and I was like wondering if I
was going to traumatize Buddy by bringing back this dead animal.

(01:56:26):
Yeah that's cute, fluffy thing and then skinning it and
taking it apart. But I just went for it, and
it went't great yeah, he helped me. I mean yeah, yeah.
People asked like, what's the best time to introduce your
kids to like animal death. Um, I usually say like
early enough, or they don't they never even really you
know what I mean. Yeah, like it's not like a

(01:56:46):
day when all of a sudden, it's just like it's
just like a part of life. And yeah, why I
ever have like just have it be ingrained that that's
like a thing that happens. But yeah, in that case,
I didn't, And um, yeah, later on kind of question
my own judgment on it. Yeah, when they're you or
they don't know any better, right, Like you don't know
any better. You could be raised and with something that's
not within someone's other morals, you know, but you don't

(01:57:07):
know any better. So there's that time. And then I know,
with my daughter, you know i'd be I'd be both
hunting and stuff. But I did try. I just didn't
want her to be grossed out by it because some
of that stuff is stink, you know, like you've gutting
something and you're like, to me, it's even like THO
thinks to stink. So like as a little kid, you
know they're gonna be like you gross. But I've taken

(01:57:30):
her see hunting when she was kind of old enough
to understand what. But the goal was always just, hey,
it's food. It's no big deal, you know, like that's it.
I didn't try to make a big deal out of it,
Like I didn't sit there and try explain the whole thing.
I just kind of let it happen. And she knew
that I would go hunting and she wouldn't be there
when I clean it, but then we'd eat it, so
she knew where it came from. Um. So then when

(01:57:53):
when it was the time for her to be there
cleaning with it. And actually the pig that I served
you guys that first night, she helped me clean that
thing too. Um. And yeah, it's just it's just a
normal part of life. And it's either you teach them
when they're young enough to where they don't know any better,
or you just make sure it's the right time, because
I could see there being a wrong time where they

(01:58:15):
get either go stout by it or they're saddened by it.
You know, it's being a little lamb and they just
think of these little cartoons baby lambs or something, and
you're killing them. But your daughter's got a great approach
to food, though. Man, she cracked me up last night.
She comes in, starts eating shrimp. It's about a half
pound of raw tuna. Starts eating Cal's shoulder ducks. Yeah,

(01:58:37):
she's just like no, like no, even like sort of
part of her brain that would be like the impressive
part of the ducks too. You gotta point out it's like, oh,
this one's fishy. But then she came back and tried
a different duck, which I mean for even adults. Is
the reason it's fishy as well as Cal slathered in

(01:58:58):
oyster sauce. Yeah, well she you know it tastes like oysters.
Don't play the duck that's Callian's Giant Boston. Steve and
I both went into panic mode. It's like, oh no,
don't imprint the duck is like this this particulars and

(01:59:19):
we never like when she was younger, and my wife's
a big part of this is that she never got
any special meals, you know, whatever we're making, no matter
how like obscure it was or weird flavors. She never
got no map cheese, she never got no chicken nuggets,
none of that either. Eating what we're eating for dinner.
You're not eating dude. Man. That's if I had one
like that is my primary parenting suggestion. If I could

(01:59:43):
be so audacious as to have parenting suggestions, it was hard.
Don't fall into the trap and making separate ship at
that time. Yeah, and there is stuff like you gotta be,
you gotta understand like something everybody has it on personality.
So some stuff she just doesn't like. So it's like
that's all good. Don't eat that. You know, it's no
good deal to try it, but you don't have to

(02:00:04):
eat it, you know what we call it. But yeah,
she'll eat. I mean when she's younger, she she eat
raw onions, just like a piece of raw onions. Whatever.
She's a she's has like a super good palette. Like
you can give her something, she'll tell you what's in
it and oh, buddy, mine this is good clothes, good
way to close and you know, ben, oh sorry, one more,

(02:00:25):
one more thing here. Danny's daughter just had her twelfth
birthday and her great grandma rolls up to the house
and you know, like in your standard like birthday bag,
and Zadie looks inside and she's just like super excited.
Oh my gosh pulls out two mangoes, two mangoes from

(02:00:47):
grandma's tree for twelve birthday and she is just like
was overjoyed. Oh yeah, And I was just like about
that because my old man he's talking about like growing
up real poor, and he would say that for Christmas,
He's like, you would get an apple or an orange,

(02:01:09):
and it was a big deal. That's awesome to get
an apple or in orange, especially in orange in December.
Not an orange game station and an orange. It was
a real treat in December. It would be like, my goodness,
what are they what do they come up with next?
What was I gonna say, You're really gonna close with something?

(02:01:31):
Um that was gonna be really compelling and I'm not
sure what it was. Right. So he's been on the
show Ben benyon um Uh Texican. He's a land manager,
commercial hog trapper. He fattens a pig every year from

(02:01:54):
the family's table scraps. That's what he fattens it on.
And we were about what a good idea that was,
But then we talked about how it would change your
attitude about waste because your kids would be like you,
I really got to finish this. And then you'd be like,
why I could give it to that pig fatting them up,
and you'd become more permissive. So it's like a dangerous

(02:02:18):
area to be in. Man, And I had yeah, I
had brought up the fact that my mom and stepdad,
you know, big beef family, their appetites getting keep getting smaller,
but they're weekly giant steaks stays the same size, and
the dogs keep getting fatter. All everybody, thanks for joining

(02:02:40):
Stay tune, Will Fillion on our on our feral sheep
hunt hunting livestock in Hawaii, which is fun. Yeah, turning
to livestock into Yeah, they're pretty wild. I mean they'll
run from you just like any other animal. Yeah, they're
definitely man. Yeah, anybody anybody's metaphorical agnols that they figure

(02:03:01):
it out? Oh yeah, all right, thanks everybody,

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Betrayal: Season 4

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 358: Thoreau Would Likely Have Little Use For You