Ep. 702: How To Argue About Hunting and Fishing Like A Lawyer with Jefferson Fisher

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, it's the Dog Days of May at the
metior dot com. Come back here, cat, We're having a
lot of extra podcast drops articles all about dogs, hunt
with dogs, nothing about cats. Tune in now.

Speaker 2 (00:20):
If this is the me Eater podcast coming at you, shirtless, severely,
bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening podcast, you
can't predict anything.

Speaker 1 (00:32):
The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you by first Light.
Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands, or scouting
for ELK, First Light has performance apparel to support every
hunter in every environment. Check it out at first light
dot com. F I R S T L I t
E dot com. Join Today by Jefferson Fisher. I'm excited

(00:55):
you're here, man. You know, it was mostly excited to
hear is Krin listen to this?

Speaker 3 (01:00):
You know?

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Do you know this story?

Speaker 3 (01:01):
I kind of just told him, but she knew.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
I was like, Hey, I want to get this, dude,
Jefferson Fisher on and so it's in her mind and
in her notes. Meanwhile, she's listening to a podcast what's
it called Diary Diary of a CEO, and you're on it.
But she doesn't make the connection. She likes it so
much she listens to it twice and shares it with people,
and then one day she's like, oh, wow, that's the

(01:25):
dude we're having on.

Speaker 4 (01:26):
I thought there were too Jefferson Fisher.

Speaker 5 (01:28):
Yeah, there's a lot of us, tons of us.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
Well, yeah, we're always like kicking around so many names.
It's hard, you know what I mean. Yeah, we got like,
oh what about you know, maybe this guy be cool,
this is whatever. So she's like sort of in her head,
is this thing I asked about when your book comes out? Yes,
and then at the same time she's listening to you,
and then one day has a like, oh that's the dude.

Speaker 5 (01:49):
Well thank you Krin.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
Yeah you bet.

Speaker 5 (01:51):
Yeah, I'm honored to be here. This is the one
like I was super nerding out about that I got
to be on this podcast.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Jefferson Fisher is a by training a trial attorney from Texas,
but he just published his first book called The Next
Conversation Argue Less talk more. He's a hunter. I got
turned on to him. We have we're with the same
literary agency right Europa. That's right now where I've been

(02:21):
with Mark at Europa. As I was just turning earlier
for over twenty years.

Speaker 5 (02:25):
Yeah. Mark is fantastic, and.

Speaker 1 (02:27):
He's the one that kind of like found me and
moved me from magazine writing into books.

Speaker 5 (02:31):
So he was the one. Oh yeah, okay. So Tess,
who is kind of his proteges works under him, is
the one who found me. And she emailed me, just
a cold email, and I'd had several others, but this
whatever reason, I read hers and the subject line was literally,
hello from a literary agent, like that was their subject line.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Let's pick up line exactly.

Speaker 5 (02:52):
And so I had seen a few and I looked
it up and I saw, of course you go to
see they represent and I saw your name and I
was like, no way, And because your name was on it,
I said, yes, I'll I'll go with y'all because I mean.

Speaker 1 (03:13):
Like a commission exactly.

Speaker 5 (03:16):
You need to talk to Mark about it, honestly, Yeah,
because I pretty much said anything was Meat Eater. I
was buying. I think I bought every book. I've watched
every episode. Yeah, I got I got the bench Maade
Meat Eater, and I like I was, I was like yeah,
man uh. And so it was a huge influence of
like when I talked to Tess and I was said,
y'all really represent uh Ranella and she's like, oh yeah,

(03:40):
he's He's great, and then talked about Danielle I followed
her before all of her cooking stuff and yeah, and
so to be here is just super full circle for me. Man,
that's awesome. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:52):
I got turned on to Jefferson about watching his that
this fellow we talked about shared his video series with me.
Where you sit in your car, Well, tell what you
do talk about your video say.

Speaker 5 (04:05):
Yeah, yeah, so I I this.

Speaker 1 (04:07):
Is good because let me everyone listening this, this is
highly We're going to demonstrate, this is highly relevant to
your life. How to communicate. Okay, but also we're going
to learn today how to communicate in the trickiest hunting
and fishing scenarios that people encounter, so how to navigate
the awkward parts. But also you can use this. You

(04:28):
don't call them tricks, do you?

Speaker 3 (04:30):
No?

Speaker 1 (04:30):
Never, You're not like playing mind games.

Speaker 5 (04:34):
No, I mean I guess you could say they are.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
I mean you'll use these tricks on your wife too.

Speaker 5 (04:39):
Yeah, if you and just don't share this episode with her, yeah,
oh yeah don't.

Speaker 1 (04:42):
Yeah that's a good point man. Yeah, if you're listening
with your wife in a car right now, change it
exactly because later, when you start influencing her heavy duty,
she's gonna know that. She's gonna be like, you're doing
that from the podcast.

Speaker 6 (04:56):
It's interesting because if you're if you're writing on this subject,
you do don't want your reach to expand so far
that your readers are using it on themselves and then
all of a sudden it becomes resolete.

Speaker 1 (05:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (05:08):
I get a lot of comments of people saying, I'm
using this on my husband or my wife, and I
don't tell them, and so I'll have people that will say,
or a couple. I'll have like a mom or a
dad say I'm using this on my wife. And they
asked me the day like are you is that from
that attorney guy?

Speaker 1 (05:28):
Exactly?

Speaker 5 (05:29):
Like I saw that video too, Like I know what
you're I know what you're trying to do.

Speaker 4 (05:33):
All I can think about is the these aren't the
druids you're looking for?

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (05:38):
Is there a hand mode gesture involved? Subtle on?

Speaker 5 (05:40):
I'd be honest if it was still very much the
Jedi one that you're using just.

Speaker 1 (05:44):
Right in motion. Yeah. So the video, Yeah, the videos
you made? Yeah, I make videos.

Speaker 5 (05:49):
I started making videos in my car, so full time
practicing trial attorney, and I left a big defense from
that was at and then started my own and I thought, well,
I need to be on social media, and so I
started making videos and I thought, I need to have
the perfect light's the perfect camera, and so I thought,
I'll just I got my truck, I got my car,
kids car seat in the back. I'll just make it
where I'm at. And uh, I thought, well, what I

(06:11):
need to do. I just tell them what I feel like.
I know that's how to help people argue and communicate.
And so I got my phone and said how to
Argue like a Lawyer, Part one, and then by like
the fourth video, it had gone viral and then it
blew up that quick, yeah, really quick, five million followers
I have. Yeah, I think we're today. I think I

(06:31):
think we'll hit six million today on Instagram and we
have about twelve million total on across the platform.

Speaker 1 (06:37):
And obviously at arguing, Yeah, what the whole world's gonna
be good at arguing?

Speaker 5 (06:42):
Yeah, yeah exactly, Yeah, everybody's could be great. So yeah,
so I've been doing it for a little over two
years now.

Speaker 4 (06:49):
You started eating video with something catchy like have you
recently been exposed to that's exactly right.

Speaker 5 (06:59):
Okay, yeah, yeah, messima as best to solid Yeah, exactly
exactly call this, that's exactly right.

Speaker 1 (07:08):
Your But your video series wasn't meant to The objective
wasn't to drum up lawyer business.

Speaker 5 (07:13):
No, it never was. And so I found that when
I was talking about the law, like the first few
videos I made just to kind of see how Instagram work,
because it used to not. They didn't always have video.
I mean video was only to compete with TikTok, and
I didn't really like it. I just I felt like
it was trying to sell stuff to everybody. So when
I started my how to argue like lawyer, it would

(07:33):
be like how to have a difficult conversation Number one,
do this too, and do this, three to do this,
and then that was it. And then those just started
to really people became where they would say I I
binge them, where they would just go video after video
after video, and I never saw any of this. I
just considered this kind of a hobby and I would
do it for about thirty minutes after work, between work

(07:55):
and home, and that's how it happened.

Speaker 1 (07:58):
This has not doing anything. But you know I'm binging
right now because my wife turned me on to it
last night. Is this dude that this dude that sings,
he does like a male and female role of singing
the most like graphic, awkward, tender exchange.

Speaker 4 (08:15):
Exactly who you're talking So it's.

Speaker 1 (08:18):
So it's so graphic that I'm not going to name
yeah who he is because I don't want to be complicit.

Speaker 5 (08:23):
Well, you gonna have to share that with you because
that was so funny.

Speaker 1 (08:26):
I love some of these like very very uh the
unusual distinct requests.

Speaker 5 (08:33):
Oh, there's no doubt, there's no doubt. And what I
love so much about this it's just not the videos
that are great now, it's the comments are hilarious, Like
you'll go to content just to read the comments. You know,
people are hilarious. That's my favorite part about But that's
how we got started in all of this, was just
the videos in the car.

Speaker 1 (08:50):
What was your first exposure to hunting as a kid.

Speaker 5 (08:53):
Ah, My dad would take me probably six or seven,
go duck hunting, put me on his shoulders while he
was waiting. So we down in Texas, down in Texas,
so we have a few different properties, and this one
is Touches. Both the Angelina and the Naches River are
there below Lake Sam Rayburn.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
Is that how you say it from if you're from there,
Naches Nachus?

Speaker 5 (09:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (09:16):
In Montana, we say yeah, what's.

Speaker 5 (09:18):
Inn e c h Yes, yeh.

Speaker 1 (09:21):
I only care about what people for me. The final
word is what is the dude that lives there? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (09:26):
Exactly, Yeah, being Angelina and n Yeah. Yeah. And so
there's a it's just a marsh out there, and so
we would he would take me and we'd shoot or
he would shoot uh wood ducks and then really yeah,
and then I'll get taken to go goose hun. We
go goose hunt every year, almost every year of my life,

(09:48):
we've gone goose something down in Eagle Lake, which is
not too far from Katie Houston, west of Houston, big
Rice Fields. And I was kind of the substitute dog,
you know, I was did they go find out exactly?
And there was nothing more exciting. I mean, I would
just take off to go finally and so come back
with the geese. And then I think starting about eight

(10:09):
was the first time I actually started deer hunting with
the rifle and so early yeah, wait, way early, and
then I can I switched to bow hunting probably when
I was about fourteen to fifteen, switch switched. Yeah, hung
up the gun, no, I mean, yeah, yeah, that's that's
the difference.

Speaker 1 (10:27):
That's my first question. Avid bow hunters. No, not to
tack on age like people the only hunt with the bow. Yeah,
My first question is, yeah, like a felony, you got
you got something, you got something.

Speaker 6 (10:38):
You just run down all the questions on the four
four seventh. Exactly have you ever renounced the United States citizenship?

Speaker 5 (10:44):
Yeah, exactly, No, no, not. I did not hang it
up for good. No, I just that was the first
time I really took up the bow and had a
whole lot of fun with it when I was probably
about fourteen fifteen, raight before I started driving.

Speaker 1 (10:55):
So that's where you're at now. Yeah, bo, your avid
boat hunter now, yeah, bow.

Speaker 5 (11:00):
Hunter for sure, but also a gun gets the job done.
So I'm not one of those that My grandfather is
very much only bow he got to wear because he
couldn't pull it back because he had shoulder surgery. He
did it with his teeth.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Oh want you guys buy him across bow. That's what
we did. We did.

Speaker 5 (11:20):
We got him cross bow eventually because he was losing
to me teeth. He started losing to me teeth, and
so we're like, I said, Papa John, we got to
do something. So now he's now he's got a crossbow
that he steps on and pulls it back, and so
he's one of these he'll hunt un till he can't
hunt anymore. We actually just had a goose hunt up
in Lubbock, and that was the first time that he

(11:45):
didn't get it. He just couldn't get his gun up. Yeah,
and that was like, really that was really hard. Yeah,
that was like really really hard on him to realize
he couldn't get it up fast enough. M So, but yeah,
hunting has been part of my home up.

Speaker 4 (12:00):
Sounds like he's a good hunter though, because we recently
hunted with a bunch of guys all in a big
field set up this winter and there are two older
guys out there, yea, and they were having a hard
time being on time, right, But eventually they were like, well,
I'll screw the rest of you. And you'd look down
the line. Everybody's all covered up, and you'd look down

(12:23):
the line and they'd just be up like that.

Speaker 5 (12:26):
Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 1 (12:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (12:28):
See, he he was definitely the one that in our
family that kept set the tone for the hunting. And yeah,
he's done. I mean every hunt in Africa he's done,
Moose up in Alaska, he's done. Bear, he's done. I
mean he's caribou, you name it. That's like his that's
his thing.

Speaker 1 (12:45):
I like that you began your book. It's bold you
begin your book with a hunting story, right.

Speaker 5 (12:52):
I was curious how that was going to be taken.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
Well, yeah, because you could do it and a lot
of guys would be like, they'd be like, wow, I
don't want to do that because it might turn people
on exactly, which you know whatever. But yeah, So I
always like to applaud people who are just like, hang
it out there. I had a guy I still want
to say, Well, I guess I could say his name.

Speaker 5 (13:07):
Now.

Speaker 1 (13:10):
I had a guy one time call me. He was
married to a very famous singer.

Speaker 5 (13:14):
Okay, what genre did he make? Videos?

Speaker 1 (13:17):
On the under exchange he called He's trying to get
hold me one time, like passes the messages you want
to sew it's just like to tell me and he
tells me flat out. He's a closeted hunter and he
says he has a game room that you wouldn't know
was in his house unless he took it to it
because he can't let anybody know because the business he's
in and the business's wife's in.

Speaker 5 (13:38):
Wow. Well, I mean I can understand it, but yeah,
that's the I mean, I can, I can relate to
that to a little bit, but I don't.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Want to betray his trust. Yeah, with one phone call,
He's like he had to tell somebody. I was like,
I kept thinking there was gonna be like a thing
in the end, like do you want to be a
pop singer?

Speaker 4 (13:57):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (13:58):
You got to put out a hotline confessions to Snake
so people feel better.

Speaker 1 (14:03):
I like to pull a trigger now and then I
mean I understand, buddy.

Speaker 7 (14:06):
That satisfying for anything.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
Yeah, yeah, I was puzzled though I thought there I
was just waiting for I thought there's more to the story,
but I'm not being it. I gotta tell. I gotta
tell two quick stories I think are pretty funny. You'll
have to bear with because they're about a guy you
don't know what everybody else knows them. That's fine, you know,
Doug Darren I just can't. Every year I take my
kids since my little boy was four, My fourteen year
old was four. The first time he went there was

(14:29):
awesome to hunt Turkey's at Doug's place. Now we go
during the kiddie season. It's two day long kids season,
so we go over here. We're just at Doug's place
and Doug anybody's hung out with them, like is like, uh,
his adamant that people like he backs in his car
no matter what. He doesn't call it backing and pointing out.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
Yeah, when I didn't on his property, he like called
me out for it.

Speaker 1 (14:55):
That was the first time I discovered, you know what
it comes from. So his his great Tampa or know,
his dad got attacked by his own chainsaw one time
and had to drive himself to like het himself in
the brisket with the chainsaw good and drove himself to
a hospital. So Doug's telling he's telling my kids the story.

(15:19):
And even and even though Doug's dad manages to get
in his car and drive all the way to the hospital,
Doug explains my kids, if he had the backed in,
he'd be dead, wouldn't It's like Doug, And then he
like got in the car and made it to the hospital.

(15:39):
But backing out would have been the end of that
would have been.

Speaker 6 (15:43):
I'm sure that it was the observation of the physician
that treated him.

Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah, I was like, thank god, it's fine to tell
my kids to back in, but you don't need to
like at he had backed in, he'd be dead.

Speaker 7 (16:00):
I associate that with volunteer firemen. All the volunteer firemen,
I know they back in because if they get a
fire call, they want to be out of there as
quick as possible.

Speaker 5 (16:07):
Yeah. So somebody who one of my best friends, he's
now the CEO of the my law firm, and he
always backs in. That comes from law enforcement. He's been
a law enforcement his whole life. So that's just ingrained
to him to.

Speaker 1 (16:20):
I try to do it. I try to do it,
but I get lazy now. But you know, like about it.
Either way, you got to back out at some point.

Speaker 5 (16:25):
I I it's like you just you either do it
at the beginning or you do it at the end.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
Yeah, I'll try to like do that the other point.
This is the end of my my things about Doug.
But Doug, my buddy Dog's got a buddy keeper and Uh.
They're talking about another guy getting caught up by his
own chainsaw, and this guy calls Doug.

Speaker 5 (16:43):
A lot of chang, a lot of incidents, yeah.

Speaker 4 (16:46):
Woodlow management, country.

Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, everything everything is like cutting his cutting that another
guy gets hurt by his chainsaw and he calls like
dog finds out, but Doug's not around, and Doug's like
Keeper's all around, always around. So he calls Keefer to
notify about the chainsaw injury, and Keifer had a great quote.
He says, I'm always around, but I'm never quite there.

Speaker 5 (17:11):
That's good. That's good. That needs to be on like
a magnet or a bumper sticker.

Speaker 1 (17:15):
Yeah, it's great.

Speaker 5 (17:16):
That's a great line. Always around but not always there.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
Okay, So your book, Yeah, first book, the next conversation,
argue less, talk more. I got it. I gotta this
is a I haven't read it.

Speaker 5 (17:30):
That's fine.

Speaker 1 (17:30):
I read the beginning to tell people cause I feel
like a lot of times people don't come out come clean.

Speaker 5 (17:35):
Oh yeah, I've been on lots of podcasts and you know,
good and well, they've never they haven't even cracked that open.
It's fine, not a problem.

Speaker 1 (17:42):
Nah, how'd you like so you try to take all
you learned, yeah, and put it in there some of it. Yeah,
it was walking through the book. Yeah.

Speaker 4 (17:55):
The it kind of has to be all you learned,
because I keep looking at that title and trying to
make a sequel out of it, and it's hard.

Speaker 5 (18:03):
Yeah right right, Yeah, it's definitive. The conversation after that one,
the next next conversation, still arguing, Yeah, exact question mark, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
the conversation after the next one. Yeah. So I'm a
social media that where when I was posting these videos,
people would leave a comment say, you need to write

(18:24):
a book, Please write a book, Please write a book. Oh,
And I thought, well, I guess I'll write a book.
I mean, I was googling how do you write a book?
And then Test came along. I mean, that's as simple
as I say. When you write that in it talks
about self publishing, really, and I thought I was going
to self publish it, and then Test came along and
saved me, and Mark came and saved me. And so

(18:46):
the idea was I need to I wanted to provide
the people that follow me my framework with how to
communicate how I do it, my thoughts on it, so
that if they want to go and not need me.
There you go. You don't have to watch my content anymore.
You got the you got the book. But it's not
just a summary of every every one of my hit

(19:06):
viral videos or every one of that. It's not just
a regurgitation. So it lays out three different rules, talks
about how to say things with control, say things with confidence,
and say it to connect. And the idea is that
people weren't watching my stuff. They handled the last conversation.
They were watching that the change how they were going
to handle the next conversation. And that's how this whole

(19:27):
thing kind of came about. How to help people argue
less and talk more.

Speaker 1 (19:31):
Tell me about the three things, Yeah, the three like like,
give me a summation of the.

Speaker 5 (19:36):
What you mean by the whatever the hell you just
laid out? Yeah? Yeah, whatever that is?

Speaker 1 (19:41):
I can't remember.

Speaker 5 (19:42):
Yeah, yeah, it's easy to forget. The rule want say
it with control is all about, rather than trying to
control the other person, things that you can do with
within your own body to help control yourself, you know,
just kind of control. Regulate your own emotions before you
get into it, not excite the moment, make it worse.
Same things with confidence is learning about how to find

(20:04):
your assertive voice. You have people that might overapologize or
find ways to be really hesitant with their words. This
is more about how to lean into it and be
more assertive when you communicate. Three is how to say
things to connect, which is all about how to handle
difficult conversations. How do you deliver bad news? How do
you tell someone though and you're not really sure how
to deal with that? How do you deal with these
conversations that you're dreading, you know, while you're brushing your

(20:26):
teeth and driving there, and you know you got to
have it, but you don't know how. And so this
gives a good framework for all of that. I like
to say that some people might teach you how to
play an instrument. I teach you the I give you
the sheet music, I tell you what chords to play.
That's kind of how.

Speaker 8 (20:42):
Is this Are those rules things that all trial lawyers learn?
Or is this stuff you learned along the way?

Speaker 1 (20:50):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (20:50):
Great question. Now this is law school didn't teach you
squat about reading. People only teaches how to read the law,
how to apply case law to certain facts in spot issues. Uh, Now,
trial trials. Courtroom certainly can give you a lot of
training and communication. How do you handle conflict? Because everything
you do you're being watched. You'll probably like this. So

(21:12):
a lot of your really good attorneys, the ones that
let's just say make a lot of money, they do
really well. They won't wear their Rolex and drive their
Mercedes to the courtroom. They have they have another The
good ones wear they have a different truck. They have
like an old beat up eighty seven. Yeah yeah, yeah,

(21:35):
yeah yeah, And so they wear like the second hand suit.
They really because as soon as you pull into the
parking lot, jurors, perspective, jurors, they're all watching you the
whole way. So if you come in and you have
like a whole team of five pair of legals, it
just means the Johnny Cochran approach. Yeah exactly. So you
have people that kid, oh yeah, because as soon as

(21:56):
you walk in, they're looking at everything. If you if
you exactly, So if you come in with a whole
bunch of people, they're gonna assume you have a whole
bunch of money. That means your client has put a
whole lot of money, which means they're trying to hide
something because they're afraid of this case. So it's it's
very very tacticals. Soon as you and it starts in
the parking lot, it really does. But so any anytime

(22:17):
you go into the courtroom, you're being watched. You have
your twelve jurors or maybe six if you're in a
county court. You got the judge, the bailiff, the court reporter,
opposing counsel pair, legals, people that are back in the audience.
Everything you do is watched. KA nothing to do with it,
don't matter. I communicated, but I'm just glad to be here.

Speaker 1 (22:36):
I want to do whatever well I want. I want
to get your quick feedback from something that happening when
I was eighteen years old. If this is normal or not.
I tell the story all the time. I never asked
someone who would know I had jury duty. And it's
a it's a crack cocaine trial, criminal trial. Yeah, and

(22:56):
they're they're pushing for a felony or like a sorry,
a life sentence for a crack dealer. We go through
this whole trial and it's like wire tabs and translators,
you know, and you make it on the jury. I'm
on the jury. Yeah, I sat through the whole thing. Man,
that was fascinating. I loved it. So what they had

(23:18):
to prove is that he had sold a certain threshold
of crack and they had bought the undercover guys had
bought like ninety percent of what they needed, okay, just
so all they needed to do was through money and
all that other like there has to have been another
whatever pound. I don't know what the hell was, I remember, right,
So the whole logic was like, here's all the what

(23:40):
we bought, and if he sold ten percent more through
his career, he would have trafficked x quantity of crack, right,
And we come back very quickly with a guilty verdict.
The judge was this dude named Mike COBBSA. I'll always
remember that.

Speaker 5 (23:58):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
He says, we do the whole thing. They take the
guy away, and he says, I'd like you to hang
tight a minute to the jury, all right, And he says,
if any of you has any feeling of remorse about
what you just did, I want to tell you a
couple of things about that guy and tells us all
the non admissible evidence, all the double jeopardy ship. Yeah,

(24:20):
is that normal.

Speaker 5 (24:21):
Very normal. Okay, yeah, it's normal. It is fascinating, it's normal.

Speaker 1 (24:24):
And so he said, and I'm gonna tell you they
did buy more than they needed.

Speaker 5 (24:29):
Hell yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
And he had this and had that. Yeah, and he's like,
whatever shot his girlfriend exactly?

Speaker 5 (24:35):
Yeah, any any of it. Yeah, it's very very common.
And so, and it's criminal trial and civil trial. We
get to ask questions of the jurors. So after the
trial is over, if we want, we can ask the panel.
So we can go and ask them, how do you
like to trial? What what evidence did you find? We
know how you room? You know what what what exactly?

(24:57):
And they and they're free to answer or not u
But often you have the jurors will come to you
after the trial, after you're done whatever they've they've ruled
judgment on it, and then you can get to ask
them what what piece of evidence did you like, would
you not like, would you find most compelling? And so
you'll have some that come up and hug you know,

(25:19):
your client, just I just want I'm so sorry for
all you've been through. There's people who hate the other side,
I mean, or they might hate you. I mean, you've
never you never know, but yeah, you can definitely talk
to them.

Speaker 1 (25:28):
So it helps you hone your craft too.

Speaker 5 (25:30):
Big time because you think that the one piece of
evidence that you thought was so crucial, like no, I
got to get this in. They didn't care a lock
about it, didn't even enter their system. They were focused
on this and you had no idea.

Speaker 1 (25:42):
They're watching your watch.

Speaker 5 (25:44):
Oh yeah, yeah, every little thing because like, for example,
if let's say I need to other side objects to
some evidence, and it's what they would call it a
quick maybe objection battle in front of the jury, which
you typically don't want to do. But when they say
can we approach the bench?

Speaker 1 (26:00):
You say that again, I understand. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (26:02):
So let's say I need to object to a piece
of evidence that's coming in, so objection your honor, whatever
it is, relevance here, say you name it, and you
typically will say can we approach, meaning we want to
go to the bench and have this discover this discussion
because we don't want the jury to hear it. Jurors
don't like that because it feels like how come you
get y'all get to talk and we don't get to

(26:22):
hear it, like like, oh, what are y'all talking about?
And they don't. They don't like that. So when you
have an attorney who's objecting a lot, it's going, what
are you what are you hiding? What are you not
wanting me to hear? They'll they'll count that against them.

Speaker 1 (26:34):
Or like, even though the judge says, hey, never mind
this exactly, even though the judge says specifically they're going
to object to that, don't pay attention to it.

Speaker 5 (26:41):
They absolutely pay attention to it. And then you watch
how the people leave when.

Speaker 1 (26:44):
You say to your kids, don't listen to what me
and mom are going to say.

Speaker 5 (26:47):
Exactly that's exactly right. And so when you leave when
the judge makes his ruling. Now, it could be we
could have out in front. I don't have to approach
the bench. We could just talk. But as soon as
we're coming back, if you look defeated or you look mad,
you look upset, let's objected to something and I lost,
the other side's going to go okay, whatever is about
to be said, it's going to hurt their case. Like
they pick up on it even more so you have

(27:09):
to be really strategic about if it's a fact that
hurts you, often it's better to just let it in don't.
Don't try and fight it, because they'll most likely won't
even pay attention. After lunch. Somebody just had Mexican food.
They have text mechs on there. You know, somebody's nod
and somebody's writing notes. The other person's looking off like
you never know. Like a teacher, you typically don't want

(27:31):
teachers on your jury, like when we're picking jurors, because
they'll they whole class. They'll they'll say, well, no if
you watch the X, Y and Z, and then they
want they corral everybody in the in the room and
so they start to teach. Uh and uh. If if
a teacher is for you, that's the best thing. If
a teachers against you, you're cooked. You're absolutely cooked. Yeah,

(27:53):
it's funny how that that works.

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Hmmm. I feel like asking you for hot tips on
how to get out to jury duty for people that's
called the entire American.

Speaker 5 (28:01):
Yeah, it is anti American. I mean pretty much. It's
it's the percentage of even getting to the jury duty
is very small, I mean actually getting picked, actually getting picked.
I mean, I think anybody should be part of that experience.
And then that's just it's a system unlike any other.

Speaker 6 (28:17):
I want nothing more than to serve on a jury. Yeah,
I've never got I got I got a summons. And
then I realized that I live because we live outside
of city limits, I wasn't eligible to be in that
in that uh trial, and I was just defeated.

Speaker 5 (28:33):
Yeah, that's rough.

Speaker 4 (28:34):
But loving to be on a jury disqualify him from
being on a jury.

Speaker 5 (28:39):
No.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
I wonder if he said, oh no, I'm just excited
to be here. I just want to be on a jury.

Speaker 5 (28:43):
Yeah, they like that, like that.

Speaker 6 (28:45):
I have a friend who's been on two incredible juries.
That's cool, really good stuff.

Speaker 5 (28:50):
Oh yeah, I'll tell you how to get out of
it if you really want to know. And there's nothing
wrong with this. It's whenever the so they'll call it.
In some parts of Texas they say wader, or parts
of the US they say wa deer.

Speaker 1 (29:03):
They use French in Texas.

Speaker 5 (29:04):
No, in Texas we say ordiar. I call it ordre.
And so what you do is you take all the jurors.
Everybody's got their pink slips or whatever. They come in
and it's just like a big cattle call. They're all
sitting down and so the attorney's lawyers we come up
and start asking questions, trying to narrow down, and we
pick who we want on their jury. But it's not
you can't just say, like dodgeball, I want to pick Steve,

(29:28):
I want to pick whoever it's it's not that. It's
by process of elimination. So you have to say who
you don't want, and whoever is left is who's going
to be on the jury. I have a number of strikes,
the other person has. Another attorney has a number of strikes,
And I can just strike somebody because I don't like
anything about them. I can just say, oh, I got
a funny feel about this person, and I strike. It
can't be a discriminatory reason. But whoever's left is how

(29:52):
they get on. So if you want to get off
the jury, be very opinionated at their questions. So if
they're going to ask a question of you know, how
do you feel about lawsuits? And if you just answer
you know, I hate lawsuits, I hate attorneys, I hate
everything this whole thing, you will not get picked.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
Yeah that's what I figured. You could just play that game,
or or you just don't even care if someone's guilty
or not, if they've been accused of a crime hang.

Speaker 5 (30:14):
Them, yeah, I'm telling you yeah, yeah, yeah. Or on
the civil side, meaning the non criminal side, if it's
you know, there's way too many lawsuits in the world,
or you know, I think everybody should just I don't.
I hate big companies. You're going to get off the
jury because somebody's going to say you're too opinionated already,
you're not sharing showing that you're fair and impartial, like uh,

(30:36):
and this kind of relates to my world.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
I had.

Speaker 5 (30:39):
This is probably about year and a half back. I'm
taking Vordaire and I'm asking my questions. Is a motor
vehicle case, and I go sit down. The defence attorney
stands up and he has his you know, his readers,
and he's asking his questions and he there's the first
time I've ever heard anybody ask this, he says. Anybody
here follow mister Fisher's uh is a social media anybody

(31:05):
follows social media, and probably about sixty percent of the
hands we really yeah, I mean, and I never expected
any of this, Or you're like, how.

Speaker 4 (31:15):
Many of you know I have my book?

Speaker 5 (31:17):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And so I got
signed copies of the truck right exactly, yeah, yeah, and
so this is anyway, and so he was kind of
taken back. I was taken back, and I remember looking
at my client like I didn't expect that either. And
so because he asked that question, you then have to
show that each person could be fair and impartial. So

(31:39):
even if you're related to somebody in the trial, you
still have the show can you be fair and impartial?
And so he goes starts going down with every person
who raised their hand. Can you be fair and impartial?
Some people go, oh, yeah, yeah, I can still you know,
take the evidence as it comes, no problem. Well then
he got to this one lady, this this sweet little lady,
and he said, man, can you think you can be

(31:59):
fair and impartial? And she said, no, sir, I don't
believe I could. And uh he goes He goes, uh
and uh why would that be, which he should not
have aascinated. He should have just said well, thank you,
ma'am and gone on to the next one. And she goes, well,
you know what, I just watched every one of his videos.
He is so kind and and genuine, and I think

(32:20):
if if he has his case with his client, it's
a real case.

Speaker 1 (32:25):
And then there are several.

Speaker 5 (32:27):
In the audience, you know in the panel who like
shook their head like yeah, I kind of agree and
he and he just goes very much. And so we
went on continue on, and I was like trying not
the bust out laughing, and we settled the case about
thirty minutes later. Yeah, that just goes the show. I
never expected that. Yeah, or I'll have a judge at

(32:48):
the end of a hearing that I've never been in
front of before. As we're both leaving with the other attorney,
he'll say, mister Fisher, I like what you're doing?

Speaker 1 (32:55):
You know that on my wife? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, we
had a trial tourney right in one time. Amazing on
some of the details. But he was sharing with us
that he was doing jury selection, and he didn't tell
us if he wanted he wanted to be able to
identify any hunters in the jury. He never said if
you wanted to get him in or out. But he

(33:16):
also said he didn't want his logic to be understood
by the other side. Interesting and he wrote in because
he said, I asked, do any of you listen to
the Meat Eater podcast?

Speaker 5 (33:28):
Oh, that's a good way to ask.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
But he never gave me any of the details like
did he want him in or out?

Speaker 5 (33:33):
He probably it depends depends. So historically plaintiffs benefit, and
I mean somebody who has the complaint, somebody who's been hurt,
somebody who's suing somebody else. This is on the civil side,
it could be on the criminal side too. Those that
are more right leaning are more likely to say, yes,

(33:54):
they're guilty. They're more likely to turn down somebody who's
on a civil lawsuit, so they're gonna they're gonna lean
in favor of the business, not the person who's hurt. God,
So the plaintiffs are people who typically lean or benefit
from somebody who's more let's say, liberal leaning. And then
you have your blue counties, your red counties. I mean

(34:15):
it's very much controlled and like the state of Texas
very red now, and so that leans on what kind
of jurors you're going to get. So most likely, let's say,
if most hunters, let's just put a generalized statement, most
hunters lean a certain way, then that's what he's hoping
for of that kind of mindset. Now there's always exceptions,
but that's that's kind of how they roll.

Speaker 1 (34:36):
What my guests wound up being I should have written
them back. My guess was that it was a maybe
a poaching case. Oh yeah, And if he wanted to
trivialize the offense, like it's just an elk who cares?
Yeah right, you'd want to get all the hunters out
of there, oh for sure. You know. Then to then
paint a picture like this, he shot a elk on
his own place, who gives a shit?

Speaker 5 (34:56):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, or whatever. If it's a poaching case,
did he say where he lived and we have to
go find it? And that's fine?

Speaker 1 (35:04):
But yeah, I only remember as much as I'm telling you.

Speaker 5 (35:07):
Yeah, but I mean that's but that just goes to
show you it's case by case. Like there's some people
that I would, depending on the facts, I definitely wanted
my jury. There's some that I would not want a
million miles from the deliberation room. And so you have
people that, yeah, if they're a hunter, they're going to
take conservation a lot more seriously. And yeah, I.

Speaker 4 (35:27):
Had a bench warrant for my arrest.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
I'd like to say one time, his openings are the best.

Speaker 2 (35:33):
I love that.

Speaker 4 (35:35):
I've had a couple just added pure negligence, not out
of you know, real solid criminal activity.

Speaker 1 (35:43):
Like from not checking your mail, from not checking my mail.

Speaker 4 (35:45):
Yeah yeah. And I was notified that I had a
bench warrant. I was guiding at the time, so I
spent a lot of time in the woods, not in
cell reception and definitely not getting mail.

Speaker 5 (35:56):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 4 (35:57):
And it was for not paying a parking ticket for
like a very long time, I think, or a speeding
ticket or something. And and uh so I go into
the courtroom, submit my I have my letter, finally, very
overdue letter, submit it like yeah, great, the you know,
stand in line over here, the judge you'll see aloud

(36:18):
in Missoula, and I really dressed basically like I am
right now. I'm like, oh my god, this is all
not gonna go well. And so they finally get through,
get get up to me in my turn and and
I'm like, yeah, you know, guilty for the ticket. You know,

(36:42):
can I explain what happened? And just like sure, I said, yeah,
you know, I spend a lot of time in the
woods and I don't have access to mail or you know,
and I'm but I'm in town now and yeah, and
the judge just like basically said some version of yeah,
I believe you yeah, but and it was purely based

(37:05):
off of appearance, right right, right right?

Speaker 5 (37:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
And so now having this conversation, I am, I'm like,
I'm wondering if I would have if anything would have changed,
ad warn your Rolex. Yeah, if I would have gone
and found a suit or you know, borrowed my buddy's
ties and stuff like that.

Speaker 5 (37:23):
No, probably not. Like I find that most of your courthouses,
especially the smaller ones, they're just good small town people,
and they if you just treat them with kindness, like
if you're just nice, you're not rude. You know, I
can't believe I just got this. I mean, the person
who has all the powers really your county clerk, those
ladies behind the desk, who's same for like your court coordinator.

(37:44):
Those are the people who have the real huh power
in those courthouses. Oh yeah, those are the ones that
sway the judges because when you're when you're in trial,
the judge of courtport, the bailiff, they all go back
to the chamber. You know what they do they talk
trash on your entire trial. I mean they are they're
they're kind of laying bets on who's gonna win, what
evidence is Oh, yeah, they talk, they gossip about everything. Yeah,

(38:05):
and so they already kind of know in their mind, no,
that evidence is gonna work, or that's not gonna go well,
or who's who's winning and who's not winning. So that
I mean, it's like they're it's like they're they're junk
TV man. Yeah, yeah, the whole thing. But no, I
think how you you set it up. I wouldn't have
changed that because if you're trying well, there is a
difference between people who let's say, if you wore a

(38:26):
real nice suit and you dressed all up and then
you acted like a jerk, yeah, it's never gonna Yeah, yeah,
they're not gonna go well. But I mean you definitely
fit the look. So you know, I was at the
fishing I was at the fishing game.

Speaker 4 (38:39):
There have no reason to believe this.

Speaker 1 (38:41):
Yeah, really, I went to the Fishing Game office with
a co worker right down the road. Uh huh. Who
gets arrested while we're in there because of a bench?

Speaker 4 (38:51):
Warn't amazing.

Speaker 7 (38:54):
I've heard.

Speaker 1 (38:55):
I was wondering this is gonna come up.

Speaker 8 (38:57):
Did you stick around to see how it turned out?

Speaker 4 (39:00):
Just so you started reading stuff on the wall.

Speaker 1 (39:03):
Coughton stuffed me.

Speaker 8 (39:06):
Well, you took care of what you had to take
care of.

Speaker 5 (39:09):
That's awesome and hilarious.

Speaker 1 (39:12):
John, John, where'd you go? Yeah, because like you go
down and you present your name and they whatever. Unreal
Coughton stuffed.

Speaker 7 (39:22):
Have you worked any outdoor crimes before?

Speaker 5 (39:25):
No? No, no outdoor crime. So all of my stuff
is civil. I have a lot of friends that, uh
to criminal law, you're either on the state side prosecuting
or you're defending them. I mean, we have our game.
Ordens are pretty cool. Everybody's really chill down where I'm at.
So I live in southeast Texas, a little bit north
of a town called Beaumont. So it's called Silsby. Is

(39:50):
the is the name of where I live, and just
deep East Texas.

Speaker 1 (39:54):
Yeah, that's like you guys have budhand down there.

Speaker 5 (39:56):
Oh yeah, we got boot yeah huh yeah, definitely definitely.
So it's uh, it's what I love so much about
the area is you have your lakes, you have your rivers,
you you have the golf right there. I'm about forty
five minutes from which which golf, which I call the
Gulf of Mexico. That's what everybody wants to correct you nowadays,

(40:18):
Like it's Gulf of Mexico for me.

Speaker 1 (40:20):
Man, dude, we were doing vo the other day. Yeah,
we had like we're doing VO for a Mediator episode, Yeah,
which occurred there. Uh you know, and it was so
hard to like navigate it. I'm like, I don't know, man,
Like what do you call it? Yeah? So I said, uh,
I settled down the Gulf of uh you know.

Speaker 5 (40:38):
Yeah, that's why you can probably do it. This is
probably the best way you could do it.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (40:46):
So uh yeah, it is.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
So it's like so silly, it is. I think that
like change names and things. But at the same time,
it's like it's also it's so silly, but it's also
like I don't want to get into it. It's like
a little roar. It's a little language. It's like a
little hey, I'll show you what it's like to have
to choose your words real careful all the time. Yeah,

(41:11):
that conflict. Yeah, yeah, we gotta get in. Okay, who's
got this first one about? Uh, we're gonna put We're
gonna put this to the test.

Speaker 5 (41:19):
Now, what do y'all have?

Speaker 1 (41:21):
Everybody's got we got It's just scenarios Okay that you
can help us walk.

Speaker 8 (41:27):
Through first how to properly execute the insult compliment sandwich.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
But I want to get into this. I want to
do that. I want to go to specifics first, just
to get a flavor. Who's got this one? About this
starts coworkers and girlfriends.

Speaker 4 (41:40):
I don't know who wrote that one, but it's sure good.

Speaker 1 (41:43):
Where to come from?

Speaker 3 (41:44):
Who wrote that one?

Speaker 1 (41:45):
Man?

Speaker 4 (41:45):
I wish we could find out.

Speaker 1 (41:51):
You're just gonna read it for us.

Speaker 4 (41:52):
Yeah, okay, wherever he's admitting of his hit, I don't know.
It's an open document. Everybody's got access to it.

Speaker 1 (41:57):
Okay, So he's gonna hate you, he's gonna you know,
I guess, and you're gonna help us think through you
to help walk through how to handle difficult situations.

Speaker 4 (42:06):
I love it, and at the end of the day,
whoever wrote it is not not really the point.

Speaker 7 (42:11):
I still love their girlfriends problem.

Speaker 4 (42:15):
Yeah, you know, people write in and message and stuff
all the time, so we get a lot of you.

Speaker 7 (42:19):
They have a mustache.

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (42:21):
Co workers and girlfriends always casually ask about hunting spot locations. Unfortunately,
they cannot be trusted, not because they are stealing spots,
but because they don't understand that this information can never
be brought up in a casual conversation. Ever, the reasoning
behind my non answers to these questions have already been explained,

(42:43):
but they continue to ask anyway, So now I just lie,
which I hate. How do you navigate that scenario?

Speaker 5 (42:52):
So for whoever wrote this in, I would ask them
this kind of clarifying question and maybe have an idea
of what they might say. Is is this a conversation
that's happening in front of other people or is this
just one on one with whoever this girlfriend or spouse.

Speaker 4 (43:09):
Might be and co workers. Let's not forget the co
workers part. It can be both, it can be both.

Speaker 5 (43:17):
So you have something. Okay, this is super specific. So
let's say let's say there's a piece of information that
you're telling someone I can't tell you that and they're
having to continually repeat that kind of thing. Do you
feel that they're just breaking that trust? Are they Is
it intentional from this other person or is it just
they're just not thinking about it.

Speaker 4 (43:37):
They're just not thinking about it. It's not internalized on
the same level as as it's typically like a younger
hunter versus a more seasoned hunter. Because right, the value
of that information only increases over time.

Speaker 5 (43:54):
Okay, so give me a little insight here when you
where are certain spots are? Yeah? Certain spots are they
this is news to me, Like you just don't if
you're like, hey, this is a great area, we're not
going to go. We're not going to tell people that
we're hunting.

Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah, Like yeah, like, uh, this is a this is
a public land problem, ah okay, or fish or a
fishing problem.

Speaker 8 (44:13):
You got a circle of trust who you might share
it with. But then like there's people that you're not
gonna Yeah.

Speaker 1 (44:20):
So a guy like Cal, Let's say a guy like Cal.

Speaker 5 (44:22):
Yeah, just as an example, a guy like.

Speaker 1 (44:24):
Cal has a girlfriend says where are you?

Speaker 5 (44:28):
Oh? Okay?

Speaker 1 (44:29):
Then he goes, I'm up on none of your business creek, right, okay?
Uh what his problem now is someone's gonna go like, hey,
what's Cal doing? I don't know. He called he sent
me a picture, you called all these fish?

Speaker 5 (44:43):
Where is he?

Speaker 1 (44:43):
Where is he? Like? He said, he's on none of
your business creek there? Okay, No, she didn't know that.
She just was blowing it up.

Speaker 5 (44:51):
There we go.

Speaker 1 (44:52):
But he just knows it's gonna slip and so if
he goes, I can't tell you.

Speaker 5 (44:58):
I say, I guess what's the problem with that? So
this would be my thought, This would be my thought
on that is one. Of course, it's good to know
that it's not potential from this other person too. They're
they're only calling because they care. They're probably calling to
create conversation. It's my guess that they're just generally wanting
to know where you are. I think if you come
at it from I'm safe over in the most general

(45:22):
area that you can be without telling them where exactly
you are, is probably your best bet, because that sounds
like the reason they're asking is not really to know
the information that could slip of getting out. This is
where we're have this wonderful honey hole. It's that she's
just asking because she probably just is making conversation, wants
to know you're safe.

Speaker 1 (45:43):
But problem but the co workers, the coworkers are not
the co workers of okay, are my coworkers here?

Speaker 5 (45:52):
They're mining for information? Yeah, who are coworkers here in
this scenario? Are these people you're working with? Or it
is the people she's working with.

Speaker 1 (46:00):
It's me. I'm like, hey, what'd you get that big
old buck, You couldn't.

Speaker 4 (46:03):
He can't tell you, right, Steve would be like, boy,
it looks like cal had a pretty good weekend.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
Where was that? Where where was he?

Speaker 3 (46:11):
Right?

Speaker 4 (46:11):
Okay, So then because there's this totally other scenarios, like
fishing scenario that we have in common, Steve is gracious
enough to lend out his boat from time to time.
We're fishing a lot of the same spots, and in
that scenario, I'm like, hey, this is what happened, this

(46:35):
is where I was, and this is what I was
using because.

Speaker 1 (46:37):
It was my damn boat. Yeah, I said, if I said,
where did you take my boat? Yeah, that'd be weird.

Speaker 3 (46:43):
Said, he's gonna throw like a tracker in it, you know.

Speaker 1 (46:50):
And let's let's set you a different one. No.

Speaker 5 (46:53):
No, But what I would end it with is one
it's it's lighthearted, right, So I would come up with
some kind of phrase that it's really more of a
humorous joke for you, whether it's like, oh I just
went down to Mystery City or whatever it was. If
you're making it a joke that way, it's not her
taking it like it's serious. So that's kind of like

(47:14):
a code when I tell you it's here. It's because
I'm telling you because I can't let anybody know. It's
not that I don't want you to know. I just can't.
I can't.

Speaker 1 (47:22):
Yeah, We've built that joke with our kids where I'll
joke with my kids like tell them it's where none
your creek flows into business.

Speaker 5 (47:28):
There we are exactly.

Speaker 3 (47:29):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (47:29):
Yeah, So a lot of the times humor just adding
in a little bit of a joke, like if I
need to, you know, like a grandparent. So this is
the first time I go into my grandparents' house and
I remember asking my grandmother. You know, my mama said,
where's Papov? And she said, ah, he's in his office.
That meant he was in the bathroom. And so it
was just a way of like when company was around,

(47:50):
not letting them know where he was. And so or
somebody says, where'd you get that? You go out? It
just fell off the back of a truck, is what
we would typically say. If I don't want to express
in somebody, so find some on a metaphor that is
also cod it.

Speaker 4 (48:02):
Also implies that you, I see you have a wedding ring, right,
that your brand of humor must not wear off over
the time it doesn't.

Speaker 5 (48:13):
That's funny, that's funny.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Okay, here's one. All right, you have a buddy, Okay,
you're a duck hunter. I'll putting soul. Yeah, you have
a buddy who is learning to call, learning the duck call.
They're terrible. You feel that this calling they're doing and
they insist on calling a lot. Yeah, and it's just

(48:38):
it's like fingernails on a chalkboard to you. They're trying
to learn, Yeah, but it's not working right now?

Speaker 5 (48:46):
Right?

Speaker 1 (48:48):
How do you? How do you? How do you?

Speaker 5 (48:50):
How do you approach that? Yeah? So I would I would, Uh,
it's funny because I've probably been that other kid learned
how to start doing duck calls. I would begin with
this phrase. I'm telling you this because like a lot
of time we're not sure does he use that?

Speaker 1 (49:07):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (49:07):
Oh yeah, definitely, Yeah, because a lot of times.

Speaker 1 (49:10):
You don't know. My hackles are up already.

Speaker 2 (49:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (49:12):
I'm telling you because I'm telling you. It's because I
love you. I'm telling you it's because you're my best friend.
I'm telling you because I know you're really excited about
this game call like whatever it is, whatever it is,
a lot of times people just don't know why you're
telling them things.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
You start talking and then.

Speaker 8 (49:28):
You say, like, I'm telling you this because we're here
to kill ducks. And if you keep calling we're not
gonna kill that's a you know what.

Speaker 5 (49:34):
I yeah, even if it's a wee thing, I'm telling
you this because we're here to kill the most amount
of ducks we can. What you're doing, it's probably not
the best strategy right now, like just.

Speaker 1 (49:45):
Come flat out yeah.

Speaker 5 (49:47):
Yeah. When you're when you're super indirect, I feel it's
also like, if it's a hunting buddy, this is the
person who we speak very direct. I mean, if it's
me and another guy, it's direct. Conversation is usually not
that much of a struggle for two dudes who I've
just become really close. Because when you have a hunting buddy,
I mean, you can do just about You talk about

(50:09):
everything when you're in the blind or in the stand,
and so conversation happens. So it's I wouldn't skirt around
it at all. But when you say I'm telling you this,
because a lot of times it's it's the work is
for you. I guess it works both ways. It's I'm
one I'm talking about the goal of what I'm wanting
to say, because most people wait until they're talking to
figure out what they actually want to say. And then

(50:30):
at the other side, I'm telling the person why I'm
telling them that. I mean, you can say X, Y
and Z, but they're not sure what the point is
behind it. Yeah, I'd put it out as flat as
you can.

Speaker 1 (50:39):
Let me complexify it.

Speaker 5 (50:40):
Wonderful.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
There's other individuals present, Yeah, it's everybody doesn't really know
each other that well. Okay, So here you are in
a situation like I want to show everybody a good time,
which means having some success because they're going to enjoy
that at the same time I do I Am I
going to humiliate this guy in front of all these
other people?

Speaker 5 (51:00):
Mm hmm. So yeah, I would. I definitely wouldn't. That
wouldn't be your default there. I would pass it a
toss up, toss it up as a question to them,
or even saying maybe, like give them them a choice.
So even if you say something like, hey, so maybe
we I want to I like how you're calling them.

(51:21):
Let's maybe wait until we're doing X, Y and Z.
Or let's say you wanted to stop altogether and just say, hey,
I have some ideas for you on the game call.
Can you I need you to hold off for a
few X, Y and Z a few passes and we'll
try later on the afternoon, maybe when they're not coming
in as hard.

Speaker 8 (51:38):
So I mean, like, could you be could you be
like sneaky about it and be like, listen, you need
to listen to this guy.

Speaker 4 (51:45):
Call for a while?

Speaker 5 (51:47):
Yeah for sure. Yeah, absolutely, ain't nothing wrong with that.
I mean I think anytime you're also using that as
like a teaching opportunity because they're trying to get better
at it. Yeah, I mean, because I know I have
two cousins of mine that they will they guide over

(52:07):
in Lake Caddo, which is North Texas, and yeah, they'll
go and sometimes while they were learning, we'd be with
a real guide out and duck hunting or something. And
because they think that they've done a few guides, they're
just as good as they are. And the real guide
that who were paying is God. Can y'all we need
y'all knock it off? And so you know what I've

(52:28):
heard them go, just go, hey, guys, I need you
to hold off for a little bit. And then he
just never tells them when to come back on, you know,
but that's how they That's also how they learned. So
everybody's been around that. So it's I do like it.
It can be really forgiving it, just you can't do
it at a time where let's say everybody's got their
schedule together. You spent money on all of this stuff.

(52:49):
You're here to achieve a goal, and uh so if
they're hurting that goal, you need to tell them.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
So you you never you wouldn't recommend just letting it be.
You got to you you recognize the need to address it.

Speaker 5 (53:02):
Definitely. Yeah, well there's some things I would let be.
But if it's just they're blowing the call and they're
if they're if they're blowing the ducks, I mean, then yeah,
I would definitely be saying something, who's got this one?

Speaker 8 (53:14):
This one's mine. This has happened to me at more
than once, and it'll often come down to who can
get their stuff together fastest and start running up the trail.
But you arrive at the trailhead a parking spot at
the same time as a complete stranger, and there's already
tension in the air. How to address who's gonna hunt where,

(53:36):
especially when you've got like a specific spot already in
mind that you're going to.

Speaker 5 (53:41):
Mm hm and they and they're going to the same sort.

Speaker 8 (53:44):
Well, well it's either you raise them, get ahead of
them without saying a word to get to your spot,
or you decide to have a conversation with them and say,
who's going where I've got? Like how do you? How
do you get to where? You're like, I'm going to
this spot?

Speaker 5 (54:01):
You shouldn't you shouldn't.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
Well, no, no, you tell the other guy they shouldn't
go to.

Speaker 2 (54:07):
Picture.

Speaker 1 (54:08):
You had a boat launch, Okay, okay, okay, it's like
pre it's like duck season. We had a boat launch.
Most people that launch boats in this place are going
to X place. Correct, there's another guy launching right next
to you.

Speaker 5 (54:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
You could either be like, well not, I'm just gonna
act like he's not.

Speaker 8 (54:23):
Here and just tear ass out of there.

Speaker 1 (54:25):
Yeah, or you'd be like, let's go. Yeah, so like, hey,
you know, where are you headed? Because I'm thinking about.

Speaker 5 (54:31):
Yeah, I've I've seen it. Best work where you approach
that person say hey, hey, you're heading out, heading out? Yeah,
getting ready? We'll just have you know, a little bit
of BS and then well you want to I think
we should make a plan on, you know, where each
other are going. So another It's one of these things
where it's always good to just say we instead of hey,
where you going and they're gonna go. I don't know

(54:53):
if I should tell you.

Speaker 8 (54:54):
Yeah, because I've I've done it where I've you know,
approached a person and I've said where are you thinking
about going? Right, and then they'll say the spot where
I was, And then I'm in a pickle. Right if
they were planning on going where I was, then I'm
like then I got to be like, okay, go ahead.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
Yeah, I like that, like, hey, what should we do here?

Speaker 5 (55:11):
Yeah, whenever you can say kind of you're acknowledging that
they're they're there, I wouldn't just ignore them. But I
think it shows a lot of maturity too, just as
a mature hunter to go up to the person introduce yourself,
because you're getting to meet another person and be another hunter. Great,
that's another good contact for you because there are always
another set of eyes and ears on what's happening. And

(55:35):
if you could say, hey, I think we should I
think you okay with us making a plan and where
each other are going. They're most likely going to say yeah,
or even if you recommend it, I think we should
have a plan on. Let's make a game plan if
that's all right with you, and where we're going, and
then they'll typically well, I think about going X, Y,
and Z, or they might just say yeah, that sounds good,
and that gives you the chance to say, I think
I'm going to head off, you know, disurrection going to

(55:56):
cut east around the bind there and then just land
somewhere around there. If they're going the same place, then
that's a different that's a different scenario, depends if you're
really wanting to It's kind of like whoever says it first, yeah,
you know, whoever kind of claims it.

Speaker 8 (56:10):
I never want I've always been like, where are you going,
rather than I'm going here.

Speaker 5 (56:15):
Exactly, you know what I mean. Yeah, I've definitely heard
those kind of people say, well, I'm going this way,
I don't know where you're going this where I'm going,
meaning don't even don't even think about going that direction.
Because I think hunters in particular, as part of the
the nature of it all, were very territorial, sure, very dominant.
It's whatever we can to mark our territory, our fishing

(56:37):
spot or whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
So you know, how I got out of this most
recently was that me and my kid were el Cointon.
We had this whole plan put together and then we
get there and there's a truck park there, the trucks
still running, there's guys in it. So I said to
my kid, I say, hey, go ask those guys what
they're doing, because I hate those conversations. Yeah, he came
back with the report.

Speaker 5 (56:59):
Yeah, it was. It helped.

Speaker 1 (57:00):
Well, they were doing exactly they had exactly, They saw
exactly what we had.

Speaker 5 (57:04):
Seen, and they were doing the same thing. Well, not
everybody can have their own scout, you know, but.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
Had, So here's the deal with that approach. Where are
you going? They said where they're going? And he comes
back and tells where they're going, and we just went
to plan B. Had I gone up and said, hey,
we should since we're both here at the same time,
we should make a little plan.

Speaker 5 (57:23):
Yeah. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

Speaker 1 (57:25):
It's because I with the way I approached it. It
was like I made it. I made it sort of
binary and lost out right.

Speaker 8 (57:32):
But there's also like this like unwritten rule kind of
sort of where like if you get to a trailhead
and there's someone even if they got their thirty seconds
before you, it's like, well they were here first, right,
I mean.

Speaker 1 (57:45):
Yeah, But that depends a lot on like what kind
of sit like, yeah, trailhead, what kind of boat launch,
But it's there, it can be there. But if it's
like a boat launch and there's like tons of people, yeah,
it's just different rules than if it's like some weird bridge.

Speaker 8 (58:01):
Morning and the guy like you know where the gobblers are?

Speaker 5 (58:06):
Yeah. I just think if you if you approach the conversation,
you can put however terms you want. But if you say,
you know, hey, we're both here for a good hunt
this morning, let's let's make a plan out where we're going,
and and it just opens you up for really the
whole goal. That's it's another relationship that you could have
with this person because you're gonna know them, and next

(58:26):
time you see them again, you're gonna know who they are,
and it's you're meeting them really for the next time. Yeah,
that's that's why you're meeting them.

Speaker 6 (58:33):
Yeah, I've got I've got a guy that I've run
into bear hunting and we ran into each other like
two springs in a row, and then just over time.

Speaker 5 (58:45):
Where I see him and I'm like.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
Hey, howre's it going. And then one time we ended up.

Speaker 6 (58:48):
Shooting an elk out there and uh, we didn't have
enough game bags with us, and I texted the guy
and he's like, oh, they got him in the basement
of the hardware store. Just go down to the basement
and they've got bags.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
Really.

Speaker 5 (59:00):
Uh, yeah, it's funny.

Speaker 6 (59:01):
It's like I've never met him outside of the context
of two trucks on a forest service road, and most
people that I encounter in that way, I think that
they're an asshole.

Speaker 5 (59:10):
That funny.

Speaker 1 (59:11):
John John Garros, the late John Garrox line was similar.
He said, there's two kinds of fishermen. Yeah, there's the
guys you're with in the assholes.

Speaker 5 (59:23):
That's very true. Yeah, it's it's very easy to us
us versus them, And you just apply that to you
can apply to the business context. You think of that
as anything else that's the same way. And I think
there's also the kind of natural element of we're competing
for the same animal. Yeah, you know, the sense of
who's going to be the best warrior out there. Yeah,

(59:44):
and so it's very easy to get confrontational with people.

Speaker 4 (59:46):
Steve brings up a good scenario. I've told you guys
this one before, but it's just like an afterwork, right,
And I was always like very prepared, so because I
did not want to have any any sort of human
interaction when I got to my spot, so I'd have
like my backpack fully rigged up and all I had

(01:00:07):
to do is just throw on my back and go right.
It was just to minimize these scenarios. And this is
really really steep country. And this car pulls up, guy
and a kid and guys, hey, where are you going?

(01:00:28):
I said, oh, I'm going up on this ridge and
you go, oh, well, I'm that's where I'm where my
kid's going, just dropping them off. And it was just
one of those things where I was like, well, if
you had a plan, you probably should have said that
instead of asking and be that kid might get part

(01:00:48):
of the way up that thing. There's no no, like,
there's just not. It wasn't in the realm of a
realistic possibility that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:57):
Let me see the kid, yeah where Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:01:01):
And so I just left it. I said, okay, Well,
I'll see him up there and if you get something,
I'll help him out.

Speaker 5 (01:01:07):
Yeah, and that's a perfect response. That was kind of yeah, Well,
it's so funny because like where I'm at, we don't
there's no public plan. I mean, just don't. You just
don't have that available.

Speaker 1 (01:01:15):
So it's a whole other conversation.

Speaker 4 (01:01:18):
Dad in this scenario did not find that to be
the perfect response.

Speaker 5 (01:01:21):
Yeah, well I can't imagine. Yeah, I can imagine. But
that's one of the reason why I love listening to
this podcast is because you talk about the public land stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:01:29):
Were power, there are powers that be Yeah, they would
prefer that no one had a public plan.

Speaker 5 (01:01:34):
Yeah, that's unreal. It's unreal to me.

Speaker 1 (01:01:36):
Spencer hit him with the mushroom question.

Speaker 7 (01:01:38):
This is like a legal one. What if I serve
someone mushrooms that get them really sick? Can they sue me?

Speaker 3 (01:01:46):
Like?

Speaker 5 (01:01:46):
Am I?

Speaker 7 (01:01:47):
Can I get in trouble? Phil comes over for a
dinner party. I serve him a delicious meal of mushrooms.
But they weren't the mushroom I thought they were.

Speaker 3 (01:01:54):
Oh, so you don't own a restaurant.

Speaker 4 (01:01:55):
And Spencer used his words proactively to avoid.

Speaker 7 (01:02:01):
I think they're chantrell. But it turns out they're a
jackal lantern and then of those types of ushroomsyeah gets
you real poison, this gets you real sick. Could I
get in trouble for that?

Speaker 5 (01:02:13):
Yeah, you could if they wanted to see Yeah, I
mean if a private home. Yeah, even if like let's
say you somehow they were on your back porch balcony,
uh huh, and they were leaning against a rail and
that was a rail that you knew you needed to fix,
but you didn't tell them and they leaned on it
and just fell off and broke their neck. Oh yeah,

(01:02:34):
they can see you. That's why you have homeowners insurance
hopefully so, because it's even though you're technically they have
different types of people who come on to a premise,
and you have licensees, you have guests and invitees, and
it all depends on the purpose of why you're there.
So like as a here, like I come here, if

(01:02:56):
I I trip on something, I'm not coming up with
any ideas, you know, Yeah, yeahs Phil, are these wires? Okay? Yeah,
it's if you came there for the purpose of somebody else. Yeah,
you can't. You can't be ill liable now there's going
to be a big difference for you. Well, let's say

(01:03:16):
you can sue them, yes, would you probably have likelihood
of recovery? Probably not. Also, would you ever have a
friend again with this person?

Speaker 3 (01:03:22):
Though?

Speaker 7 (01:03:23):
What what if I, like gave fill the mushrooms and
he took them home and cooked them. Like I think
phil that these are shantrails, but they were jackal lanterns.

Speaker 5 (01:03:30):
It depends on your knowledge. So it goes to an
element of knowledge. Did you have actual notice? Did you?
What they would say is what they would call sufficient notice,
like you knew or should have known, so that that
should have known will get you. So if you knew
they caused problems, then then yeah, that could definitely get

(01:03:51):
you in trouble if you had no idea whatsoever. Or
let's say they were illegal to have for whatever reason,
so it doesn't matter if you had notice of whether
they were good or bad for you. It's kind of
like giving contraband for the notice of that's that's it's
only intended purpose. So one of my favorite uh, just
because this I know there's a little loft, but one

(01:04:13):
of my favorite topics to talk about. So I wrote
my in law school, you have different journals you can
be on, and everybody wants to be on the law journal,
which is the most the top of the writing where
you write articles that get put into books. And I
wrote mine on negligent and trustment of a handgun. I
have a firearm. That was my that was my negligent trustment. Yeah, yeah,

(01:04:36):
negligent and trustment of a firearm because you have there's
just different states. It was really to talk about just
the status of the law.

Speaker 1 (01:04:45):
Tell people like translate that for people. Yeah, yeah, so
like entrustment of a firearm, but yeah, yeah, you're talking.

Speaker 5 (01:04:52):
About cool so meaning that you entrusted a firearm to
let's say a sixteen year old son who you knew
had proclivities for violence, who had had brought into the law,
who played wore video games all the time, and they
entrusted the gun to the sixteen year old, and the

(01:05:12):
six year old committed a shot somebody. But that happens
too of cases where there was one where a guy
would have a had a firearm he kept in the office,
and all the women in the office knew if they
worked late at night, he had a gun in his desk.
Should they need it for self defense. Well, one of
the women was actually having an affair with that guy,

(01:05:35):
and when she had an argument with her husband.

Speaker 1 (01:05:40):
To get your book, she exactly when.

Speaker 5 (01:05:43):
She had an argument with her husband, she went back
to the office, grabbed that gun, went to her husband
and shot him. And so it was a big legal question.
So she didn't own the gun. He did. He left
it accessible for her should he need it. But did
he have the requisite knowledge give than that he knew
that they were having marital problems. He knew that she

(01:06:04):
had talked about shooting her husband. So like all this stuff,
how it's not his fault.

Speaker 1 (01:06:10):
So that's the whole thing. That's that's the whole thing.

Speaker 5 (01:06:12):
So whether I'm say, you know, I know more facts
on the case that he was very much involved with, Hey,
you can have this coffee if you want, and I
mean you can pour this coffee on him. That's fine. No,
it's fine. You don't have to like continually pushing the
gun and using the gotta Well, it actually went to

(01:06:35):
the appellate court. The jury said yes, that he should.
He was found liable for negligce and trust of a firearm.
But the Pellet court in Texas said, no, there's No,
it did not even recognize the cause of action. So
my whole article was whether or not to recognize the
cause of action. Now we recognize in Texas the cause
of action for a car. Right, so if you if

(01:06:55):
you allow your fourteen year old, I give my keys
or I make my keys access for my fourteen year old,
and so you can use the truck if you need it.
And he goes and drives. Now he's not a competent driver,
he does not have a license for it. He goes
out and causes an accident, I, as the parent, as
the owner of that vehicle, I can be held negligent.

(01:07:16):
Same thing for companies. They have an employee who they
know who's caused tons of accidents, and they're going to
let him drive, knowing that he's calls all kinds of problems.
You can. It's just a theory of liability, that's all
it is. But here I was making the legal comparison
because I just found it so intriguing. Of with a firearm,
you have a license, you need to show competency to

(01:07:36):
use it. Relatively, what's the utility of a card to drive?
Utility of a weapon is to shoot, so like it
should should be a higher threshold. So anyway, that was
that came to mind of like, what's the theory of
liability there? Several states recognize negligent and trust of a firearm,

(01:07:56):
but Texas does not.

Speaker 4 (01:07:59):
Can I ask one question on this line of thinking?
So I was given a shotgun and the person who
gave me the shotgun had the barrels checked to just
make sure it was still a good shot, old, old,
side by side, and the probably the second day that
I used it, it was hunting with with a a

(01:08:21):
friend of mine and we finally got into some birds.
Shot the gun gun shot great, And I went to
reload the shotgun I had. You know, you always maintained
good control of your barrels. And I I'm looking at

(01:08:41):
I mean, I just remember this so clearly because every
time crazy stuff happens, it's scary, right. So I'm looking
at him and I closed the gun and buy am.

Speaker 1 (01:08:52):
Right, And so I'm like, okay, I must have.

Speaker 4 (01:08:56):
Had my finger on the trigger. And my friend's like, Jesus,
that was it? Stupid?

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
What are you doing?

Speaker 4 (01:09:01):
I'm like, well, wait a minute, am I stupid? Right?

Speaker 1 (01:09:05):
Right?

Speaker 4 (01:09:06):
Well, I pulled the shells out, put new shells in.
I'm my fingers clear, the trigger.

Speaker 1 (01:09:14):
Close, right, I guess they hurting your knuckles, shoulder.

Speaker 4 (01:09:21):
Yeah, so yeah, took took the gun into a gun
smith and yeah, there you go inside the action. You know,
it was just an old gun that had been sitting
in a Massachusetts basement for a long time and then
it did that.

Speaker 1 (01:09:33):
Dude have reason to believe.

Speaker 5 (01:09:36):
Right, No, No, that wouldn't have passed that.

Speaker 4 (01:09:38):
That's not negligent entrustment of a firearm.

Speaker 5 (01:09:41):
No, No, I mean that's not at all. Like I
am very much a proponent of just because you hand
the child a BB gun, a pelagon, whatever it is,
and all of a sudden you should be liable for
everything they do with Absolutely not. I'm saying it's it's
there's a level of knowledge. It's really just more for
the legal like theory discus of it. How much sufficient

(01:10:02):
knowledge do you have to have? So you see this
come into play with of course, with mass shootings, there's
a student who came to school with something and so
the parents just had a AK forty seven of the
you know, at the in the bedroom right there or
whatever it is.

Speaker 1 (01:10:17):
And so that's the thing you're seeing lately, those prosecuting parents.

Speaker 5 (01:10:20):
Correct. Yeah, it's saying you should know better to properly
store your gun or keep it away from people who
cannot who should not be allowed to use it. And
you see this a lot with the children that truly
have have problems. But you know, in the case I
was talking about, the guy who owned the gun was
much more pushing it on to her than what evidence

(01:10:42):
could come out for that appellate corps. But anyway, Yeah,
I just find it so intriguing that if you knew
giving a gun to somebody that they're likely to cause
harmed a person, not just because they're they're new their
kid like competency is just one element. It's also the knowledge.
So the State of Texas in well the Pella Court said, no,

(01:11:03):
you have to have knowledge that they will use the
gun to harm somebody. So in the case of the
husband and wife, then the husband should have had the
knowledge that she would use the gun to kill her husband.
And that was the that was the great area. But
that just goes to she.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
Said, do you happen to have anything I can use
to kill my husband?

Speaker 5 (01:11:21):
Exactly?

Speaker 1 (01:11:22):
He said, yeah, this pistol, right, trouble for that.

Speaker 5 (01:11:25):
Yeah, So then it just goes to a level of
knowledge that Pello Court said, no, he didn't have sufficient knowledge.
The fact showed he probably knew that. It's something I
knew she didn't. I knew they had marital problems, but
I didn't know she's going to actually kill the guy.
That was kind of how that works. But that's what
made when you're talking about the mushrooms of you know
what if you give it to somebody else, does that

(01:11:45):
create a chain of liability? And there's sometimes that. Yeah,
when you entrust something, but that's what they call it,
entrusting a chattel is the legal term for it, then
you can you can in certain situations be liable for
it pretty well.

Speaker 1 (01:12:00):
Specially put another one down that I want him to
jump to, which is asking the permission permissions. Remember that as.

Speaker 7 (01:12:12):
Yeah, I have a question specifically about like preparing for
a hard conversation. I ask a lot of folks for
hunting permission.

Speaker 1 (01:12:21):
This year.

Speaker 7 (01:12:21):
I'm trying to hunt a new state, and so I
identified six landowners, sixteen landowners I wanted to ask permission for,
and I called sixteen of them a couple saturdays ago
and asked for permission. The current way I treat that, uh,
because I like sort of dread it. It's a hard
conversation and I'm a stranger. I'm asking them for like
one of the greatest favors they could possibly do for me. Yeah,

(01:12:46):
that's how it goes. How how could.

Speaker 1 (01:12:48):
You send your kids up?

Speaker 4 (01:12:50):
Question?

Speaker 3 (01:12:50):
What?

Speaker 7 (01:12:52):
How can you best prepare for a conversation like that?
Because the way I currently treat it is I sort
of spring it on myself. I like prize myself almost.
I'm like, I can't think about this too much, Like, Okay,
I'm gonna do this. It's eleven a m. Saturday morning.
This is just what I'm gonna do it now. And
so I call all sixteen of these landowners hate it,
and I rip off.

Speaker 5 (01:13:11):
The band aid.

Speaker 7 (01:13:11):
Usually I get like part way into it, it's not
so bad then, and I'd like, one thing I've done
is I tell myself the worst thing they can do
is they say no.

Speaker 5 (01:13:20):
Sure.

Speaker 7 (01:13:21):
And then one time I went up to a rancher's
door and I knocked on his door to ask for
shed hunting permission. Is dog bit me and I had
to go. It was way out of day on my
rabies shot, So I did I go get it rid.
So actually, the worst thing that could happen to me
is I get bit by a.

Speaker 1 (01:13:35):
Dog, but you suit them and got the whole ranch.
Yeah that's true.

Speaker 7 (01:13:38):
You're right, maybe, so talk about preparing for a hard
conversation like asking for haunting permission.

Speaker 5 (01:13:46):
Yeah, So what I teach for the more difficult conversations
is using what I call frame for them. And so
there's a three parts to it. One is you tell
someone what you want to talk about till you tell
them how you want to walk away from in the conversation.
And three, you get their buy in into that frame.
I see this a lot in the business context, of course,

(01:14:06):
where somebody needs to correct a decision. So let's put
it in context of maybe y'all had a business meeting
here and you need to correct something that somebody's done.
So let's say you're gonna have a difficult conversation with Krin.
It could be as simple as you know, hey, hey Krinn,

(01:14:27):
I need to talk to you about some comments you
made at last Thursday's meeting, and I want to walk
away with it with the understanding that we can't talk
about that again. Sound good? And then right there, you
know exactly what we're talking about exactly what the walk
away is, and then you're getting to their buy and
now you don't have to worry about Hey, you remember
that meeting that we had.

Speaker 1 (01:14:44):
You've had the whole conversation already.

Speaker 5 (01:14:46):
Yeah, exactly. So now there's not the anxiety because you're
only thinking of what. When you're in those situations, you're
only thinking about what you need to say. You need
to be thinking what's going to help as you think
of what they're going to be thinking about, because they're
going to me think of what what do you what's
going on here? Uh, there's new element. What's going on?
Is it's there? The fight or flight's gonna kick in

(01:15:07):
of you know, how should I handle this new threat?
What do you want? Get to the point like that
kind of stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:15:12):
Yeah. It's like when you're there at the door, Yeah beautiful, yeah, yeah,
like you're so yeah yeah, yeah, there you go, and
the guys like.

Speaker 8 (01:15:24):
Who are you?

Speaker 3 (01:15:28):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:15:28):
Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's the what's that oh
brother way out though he's shooting the taxman the kids,
he's like, good boy, yeah yeah yeah. So I love
frames and they can be used also in the productive sense.
So let's Let's say you need you want to talk
to somebody for later today, and you might say, Hey,

(01:15:51):
I need to talk to you about the budget for
tomorrow's meeting. I'm gonna walk away with us being on
the same page that work, and then right there you
just like you know, instead of like, hey, you got
five minutes, and then you're gonna lead. And then what
typically happens is you go, hey, so I'm thinking, and
you can tell me if I'm wrong about this, but
and then you just start kind of wandering and then

(01:16:12):
and then the other person is going, where is this going?
What's the point? And then we have the problem. You
see this a lot in relationships. You have the tendency
to want to cut in, Oh you want me to
do this like no, no, no, no, wait wait wait no,
that's not it I need because they don't know how
to land the plane, so they just kind of talk
and circles. So you can put this in the context
of needing permission. So if it's hey, I like to

(01:16:36):
talk to you about your ranch and I want to
walk away with getting your permission on being able to
hunt here, is that all right? Like just having that conversation,
putting it in a one two three framework. Now you're
gonna have to tailor it for whatever is most comfortable
for you. But it's a great way of letting them
know out at the outset of what's the ask, because

(01:16:57):
I find that a lot of your your property owners,
really anybody, they just want to say get to the point.
They want as little time as possible with you, and
so you have a very small window to like just
say I like to talk with you about X, and
I would want like I can say maybe, and I
want to walk away with a feeling or I want

(01:17:18):
to that's more of the business sense for you, I
want to walk away. Ideally, I want to talk with you,
to walk away with this permission of doing X, Y
and Z, Like I'm telling you right now, the goal
for the conversation, what's the finish line for that conversation,
Because a lot of people will they start talking and
they just they don't know where they want to land.
So saying that upfront might help.

Speaker 7 (01:17:36):
Yeah, a few more notes on that. I find that
occasionally I've gotten permission because that person was just in
a really good mood whenever I happen to talk to them,
or on the contrary, like they just got done yelling
at their naughty fourteen year old and they're in a
bad mood.

Speaker 5 (01:17:51):
Yeah, when I come ask them for this giant.

Speaker 7 (01:17:52):
Favor, how can I like butter them up or get
them in a good mood at the offset. So it's,
you know, increases my chances by percent?

Speaker 4 (01:18:02):
Yeah, yeah, assuming too much. Yeah, yeah, I'm in a
bad mood.

Speaker 1 (01:18:06):
Yeah, he's tried, you know, being like you know, three
lawyers walk into a bar, just start out talking.

Speaker 4 (01:18:15):
About your warranty, your extended warranty.

Speaker 5 (01:18:17):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Let me tell you. So I was
this is probably about seven months ago or so, and uh,
my wife and I were at Target. Really, she was
a Target. I was just there and.

Speaker 1 (01:18:31):
Uh watching her.

Speaker 5 (01:18:35):
Yeah, I was watching her at Target, and uh, we're
how I while she's a checkout, I really wanted I
wanted some ice cream. I was at Targets, like, look,
if I'm gonna be here, I'm gonna get myself some
ice cream. So I went down and got like one
of those little bitty small ice creams. They don't have
any spoons. I don't know what to do about it.
So I'm thinking, and uh, there's a Starbucks inside this

(01:18:58):
Target and so I go up, I don't want anything
at Starbucks and they don't have just spoons available, and
so I I. The lady did not look like she
was in a good mood, and so I my car.
Here we go. Let's see what we can do. I'll
walk in. I say I need a miracle. You think
you can.

Speaker 4 (01:19:16):
Perform a miracle?

Speaker 5 (01:19:18):
And she goes, she immediately bright and she goes, I
just might I said, I said, I got this ice cream,
I don't got a spoon, And without me even asking,
she goes, well, I got a spoon you can have
and went got it and brought it out right there.
And I said, well, you just you can tell everybody
he performed a miracle today. And she, I mean she

(01:19:39):
we just got to have that. So it's that element
of humor, that that levity in it that even if
you were to say knock on the door and say
I need a miracle from you, or I mean, even
if it's something that's very lighthearted, they people tend to
open up just to have a little bit of fun
and humor as long as the compliments you one, because

(01:20:02):
a lot of the times compliments from your someone you're
asking something for They're like, what do you need? What
do you want? Oh?

Speaker 1 (01:20:08):
Yeah, I was joking about the beautiful that's exact jokes,
like a beautiful ranch you got here right right? Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:20:13):
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1 (01:20:14):
The hell is this guy?

Speaker 6 (01:20:15):
There's gonna be a door, there's gonna be some rancher
somewhere in eastern Montana. It's like, where'd you get that miracle?

Speaker 1 (01:20:21):
I need a miracle? Wne.

Speaker 4 (01:20:22):
I've heard that twenty times this season exactly. Oh yeah,
that's exactly.

Speaker 2 (01:20:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:20:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:20:27):
With uh with Spencer scenario, when would be the time
to bring up like offering to do work in exchange, Like,
because if you're gonna throw it right out there that
you're looking for permission, when would you say I'd be willing.

Speaker 5 (01:20:41):
To Oh so I would put that right in the frame. Yeah,
so I would say something along the lines of, once
you say hello, whatever, I like to talk with you
about your your your beautiful ranch here, and I ideally
I love to walk away with a relationship where I
work on this property for you and exchange for permission
for me to be able to do some hunting.

Speaker 1 (01:21:02):
Mmmm.

Speaker 5 (01:21:03):
That worke And I mean like that is out of
the gate, right out of the gate rather than and
it's not wasting their time. They're not going to get
anxious over like, who's this stranger at my door? And
you're saying it right up front, rather than them going,
you know, what do you need and you're going, I mean,
i'll work. I mean in exchange, I'll do.

Speaker 8 (01:21:23):
They might have said no, but i'll And the thing.

Speaker 5 (01:21:26):
Is they're already thinking no, I mean right out the gate.
Before you they even answer open the door, they're thinking no.
I mean, that's just they're probably not even gonna want
to come to the door. I mean, how many people
even when somebody knocks on somebody's door, now, it's like,
what is this maniac doing here? Like nobody wants to
be at somebody's house anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:21:44):
Someone knocked on our door last night. I said to
my kid, I said, who in the world, I said,
peek around the corner. Is it a man or a woman?

Speaker 5 (01:21:50):
Yeah? Exactly exactly. People will just say, so.

Speaker 1 (01:21:56):
My wife gets up, Yeah, that's awesome. One of those
dudes tried to do solar. Oh yeah, we got that.

Speaker 4 (01:22:05):
The other night.

Speaker 3 (01:22:06):
All of our dogs started barking. We're like, we're gonna
look at the video cameras.

Speaker 1 (01:22:10):
I don't like to send them off.

Speaker 4 (01:22:13):
The door open. I'm like, come on him.

Speaker 1 (01:22:16):
I do love it.

Speaker 6 (01:22:17):
When when all the dogs start barking, because then they
feel like they have to apologize right out of the gate.

Speaker 4 (01:22:21):
Sure, and you have that for hands.

Speaker 1 (01:22:24):
I want to hit you with one. I know you're
like the expert, but I want to hit and w
I just stumbled into contractors. Yeah, you got something's wrong
with your You gotta call plumber, right. You know what
I started doing this is just extremely effective. A guy
he calls the plumber. A lot of guys are gonna
want to like puff up a little bit.

Speaker 5 (01:22:45):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:22:46):
What I've started doing and it works so good, is
to be like, man, when it comes to electrical I'm
a moron. Yeah. Yeah, Like I look in that mechanical room, dude,
all I see is like wires and pipes. Right. They're like, oh,
it's getting aarticular.

Speaker 5 (01:23:02):
You know, it's image.

Speaker 1 (01:23:03):
A lot of guys like, well, you know, I try
to x y and you know, you know I could
probably figure it out, right, you know, I'm a little busy. Yeah,
I'm like, man, I look onto that thing, dude, I
have no idea what I'm looking.

Speaker 5 (01:23:15):
At Yeah, that's incredibly effective because it works. Let me
tell you the reason why. It's because if you instantly
become the student and they become the teacher, and people
love to teach, people love to share their knowledge.

Speaker 1 (01:23:27):
I'm also not lying, yeah, well you have in floor heating.
When I look at my mechanic, yeah, I don't know
what I'm doing.

Speaker 5 (01:23:34):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:23:35):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:23:35):
Nate Bargatsi, who I'm a huge fan of, has this
bit about when people is like his wife is the
one who knows all the man knowledge. Let's put like
he knows knows everything. And so she called somebody to
fix a water heater and he opens up and he's
like ha, and the guy's like, I'm here here to
do your water heater. And he's like, yeah, they're in there,
you know, somewhere, Like he has no idea where it is.

Speaker 1 (01:23:56):
So he's always like.

Speaker 5 (01:23:58):
I know nothing about it. And so he's always like, oh, yeah,
that's I agree. That's probably that we probably do need
a new one. Just replace the whole thing, you know,
like you have something to sell, Like it's it's fantastic.
But yeah, that's an excellent strategy because there's no there's
no battle of the ego, because we have such a
feeling of to have any kind of credibility, I have

(01:24:19):
to feel like, you know, I did this and I
tried that, and I did this and I tried that.

Speaker 1 (01:24:23):
Because dudes feel emasculated.

Speaker 5 (01:24:24):
Absolutely, but I just emasculate myself and that's genius. It's
genius to be able to to do the And I
mean the thing is I think wives pick up on
this of like it takes a really smart guy to
be that dumb kind of thing where it's like, no,
you're just trying to get out of it. Yeah, Like
I don't know how to fold these clothes. Yeah you do,
like you just not kind of I'm not very good

(01:24:47):
at loading the disc rusher. Yeah you are. It's cool.

Speaker 7 (01:24:49):
My wife is described it as weaponized and competence. Yeah,
but she's learned about it, so.

Speaker 5 (01:24:55):
I love that. Yeah, yeah, absolutely well. And I want
to also pick up on something too, of the how
do you kind of break the mold with somebody when
you're first trying to ask something from them, or really
anytime and this could be yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, is
you you say exactly what they're thinking in the reverse way.

(01:25:16):
I want to explain it. So let's say if if
I was going to tell you something and I and
I said, I don't mean this disuspectfully, and I say something,
how are you going to take it?

Speaker 1 (01:25:28):
You're probably the same way when someone says I don't
want to get political exactly, and I'm like, please don't,
yeah exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:25:35):
Exactly, Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And so it's that it's any
time you say look.

Speaker 1 (01:25:39):
It's like okay, yeah, then stop talking because you're good.
Then don't then don't.

Speaker 5 (01:25:44):
Yeah, one say when somebody says I don't mean to
be rude, and then they say the rudest thing you've
ever heard, or whatever it is, you know, I don't,
I don't mean this to best.

Speaker 1 (01:25:53):
Exactly exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:25:56):
The most Yeah, yeah exactly. So instead what you do
is you flip it. So, in other words, when you're
coming up to that person, maybe instead of going like,
I don't want to waste your time, what are they
thinking you're wasting my time? Instead of exactly now, instead

(01:26:17):
you say it for them, instead of instead of saying
it's not that case when they both know it is,
because they they're gonna people naturally want to say the
reverse of what you're thinking. So instead say you're probably
you probably think I'm wasting your time, and then say it.

Speaker 1 (01:26:32):
Oh I don't like this.

Speaker 5 (01:26:33):
Yeah, well that's not and I am, well I am
wasting Well you could say that of Let's say if you.

Speaker 8 (01:26:41):
Said forgiving me some of your time, or you.

Speaker 5 (01:26:45):
Yeah, I don't, because then you're just telling you're confirming.
I would either you say you probably think I'm here
to bother you, okay, and then then they'll actually listen,
because if you say I'm sorry to bother you, it's
just the opposite. Or if it's let's say you and
I are in a converse and you don't really trust me,
are you You're already I can just tell what I'm
doing as I'm labeling what you're not gonna like about me.

(01:27:06):
So it may not be leading with that, but it
could be something like, look, I know you probably don't
trust me, and then you're gonna think the opposite rather
than me saying and now I need you to trust me.
Here you're automatically going to go no, I don't trust
anything that you say. So when you have the people
love to think the opposite. So if I say you
can't do that, what's the first thing you think of yeah,

(01:27:28):
I can. So we have this really quick switch of
thinking the opposite of whatever you say. So if you
say it as if on their behalf, now you probably
think I'm you most likely think X, Y and Z.
Their head goes, no, I don't you think the opposite
of It's a It's a really great technique that I
that I like, what's.

Speaker 1 (01:27:49):
The movie where it is a is it Mandalorian or something.
There's like a dangerous seeming person and there's like a
point in the movie where they say to a person,
you can stay here and die or come with me
and live.

Speaker 5 (01:28:00):
All right, I hope it's some into Lauri and I
love that show, and it's like, uh, you know, and
it's sort of presenting a way where the person's.

Speaker 1 (01:28:07):
Like I'll go with you, yeah, yeahs against all like
against all visual Yeah, you know what I mean. There's
like a like a surprising way of yeah. I don't
even know what that is. As a rhetorical strategy.

Speaker 5 (01:28:20):
You're just you're narrowing the choices. So whenever you can
like give them a set of chic you're just.

Speaker 4 (01:28:26):
You're I mean, I think the actual line is I
can take you in warm, or I can take you
in cold.

Speaker 1 (01:28:33):
Yeah, I know you're right. That's what it is. A
good war.

Speaker 5 (01:28:37):
That's so good, What a great line.

Speaker 1 (01:28:39):
They're like, yeah, I gotta go warm. Yeah, I'll go warm.

Speaker 5 (01:28:42):
So anytime you you you can give people choices in conversation,
they they love it. Rather, it's like I say this
in the book. When you talk about everything, you talk
about nothing. So when you put a frame around the conversation,
you actually get very detailed instead of coming in to saying,
all right, we've got a lot to talk about today.
Nobody ever feels like you leave the conversation productive. But

(01:29:02):
if you can eliminate the just one thing, you're gonna
be a whole lot better. But yeah, that's what that's
what comes to mind for me.

Speaker 7 (01:29:09):
Can can you talk about having a hard conversation in
person versus over the phone. I find that if I'm
looking for permissions, it takes more, uh like more courage
for me to go up to somebody's front door and
talk to them then call them over the phone, But
the outcome is usually better in person. It's it's harder
for them to tell me no when I'm standing in.

Speaker 1 (01:29:31):
Front of them with the little child. Yeah, I have
one of those, Yeah, one of anytime, I got one
on crutches. Right now, you bring that kid?

Speaker 5 (01:29:46):
Do you have a wheelchair for him to exactly?

Speaker 1 (01:29:48):
I don't wative.

Speaker 7 (01:29:51):
Can you talk about thinking.

Speaker 6 (01:29:52):
That I'm manipulating you with this small child.

Speaker 4 (01:29:58):
And he's dying to talk?

Speaker 1 (01:30:00):
Yeah?

Speaker 5 (01:30:02):
Yeah, yeah, the uh Well, going to them always in person,
it's always much better. There's that element of people have
a harder time saying no when you're in person than
over the phone because you're talking to them, same reason
why people and YouTube comments will say anything, but they
never say in front of you. Yeah, it's a whole
I mean, it's just a whole different level of credibility
and humanity to it. And whenever they can see how

(01:30:24):
you look right and you can go, Okay, this person's
a genuine person, or this person doesn't look trustworthy. Maybe
it's just how you're dressed. Maybe it's how you're carrying yourself,
maybe it's how you're smiling, maybe it's I mean, they
just go, I just I don't know something about you.
I just like And so that element always gets you
far because they're already while you're talking, they are calculating
everything about from your eyes to how you're standing. Is

(01:30:45):
this a person I can trust? And so we I
mean i'd see that with jurors. I mean, jurors have
a we are humans, we have a sixth sense about us,
knowing when someone's genuine or not. Like the worst thing
a witness can do on the stand is try and
fail sympathy. If they're trying to like drum up tears.
I mean, the jury will crucify them. A jury will

(01:31:07):
oh yeah, you'll tank your case quickly. If somebody if
they feel like somebody's faking it, you're done. You're done
because they go, this person's a liar. I don't like
anything about this person.

Speaker 4 (01:31:18):
I feel like that's got to be good to see.
It's got to make you feel good about humanity. Yeah,
oh yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:31:24):
I mean when you get permissions, don't go up and start.

Speaker 5 (01:31:26):
Crying, right exactly, right, yeah, yeah, you know what. Yeah,
this reminds me of the time I broke.

Speaker 1 (01:31:31):
Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:31:35):
So when you're I I also would think it's the
landowner when somebody has the guts to come all that way,
drive all that way and come to you face to face,
so they would say, you know, I don't care if
it's a man or woman. But if that's the term
main a man or whatever it is, you know, you
come up and talk to me. And that's absolutely So

(01:31:56):
I did this once. Uh it wasn't hunting, but I
needed this location for something with a trial, and this
guy owned the property. I talked him on the phone.
He said no, immediate, no, no, no. But I waited
a week, went to his house, knocked on his door.
I wasn't wearing a suit, just wore regular clothes and

(01:32:16):
told him what I was there for. And he goes, yeah,
that's fine, you can do that, I mean, and nothing
really changed.

Speaker 3 (01:32:22):
She didn't say that you were the person who called.

Speaker 1 (01:32:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:32:24):
No, No, I didn't say that I was a person
who called, but he I didn't leave with that, but
he did ask are you the one that called? And
I said, yeah, I am, but I wanted to meet
you in person, And so that just changed the dynamic.
When there's something about a handshake, there's something about, you know,
looking somebody in the eye where that sends a different frequency,

(01:32:45):
a different signal of trustworthiness in the conversation. It's easy
to say no to a telemarket or whoever, or just
not answer the.

Speaker 3 (01:32:51):
Phone, Randall, can you hit him with two of yours?
I feel like are on the same wavelength.

Speaker 4 (01:32:59):
I like him.

Speaker 6 (01:33:02):
This is by the way, this is Oh, do you
have a hunting trip planned this one and a friend
asked to join you? You don't want them to come
either because you want to go alone. You think they'll
ruin the experience, or you don't think they'll enjoy the experience.
How do you tell them that they can't join you
without jeopardizing the relationship?

Speaker 5 (01:33:24):
That's a great question.

Speaker 3 (01:33:25):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:33:26):
And this kind of speaks a little bit to the
compliment insult sandwich a little bit which I'm looking forward
to discuss it. It's this so where I've seen it
gone bad as people lead with the oh, man, you know,
i'd love to you know, you're my best friend. Oh
you know I loved and they just they shower the compliment,
they shower the the fluff and then uh then they

(01:33:47):
end it with the word. But that's that's what happens.
I mean in relationships. I love you, Hey, I love you,
but you're driving me crazy, or you know, you're have
a difficult conversation and you say, yeah, you're you're fantastic.
How's everything going is good, listen uh, and then everything

(01:34:08):
takes like that's that's how it happens. Is you have
that conversation, Hey, how's it going good? Every family's good,
so listen uh, and then all of a sudden, you know,
the whole tenor of the conversation changes. And so the
same with the butt. You're gonna break up with somebody,
it's I you're so great. You know, I've loved everything
we've done together. But and then they just know it's

(01:34:30):
it's what the word butt does is delete everything in
front of it, because it just shows that you didn't
really care.

Speaker 1 (01:34:36):
Sure.

Speaker 5 (01:34:36):
It just has a way of just backspace, backspace, backspace.
So what I would recommend for this friend instead of going,
oh man, you know, I'd love for you to come.
But instead of that, I would I tell people to
flip it. Start with the no. Now, I wouldn't just
leave with no period. For your friend. It's it's it's
your buddy, it's it's your power. I I like to

(01:34:59):
say things when I'm really uncomfortable about it, say I
made a promise to myself, because then then they can't
ever disagree with it, they can't like argue with it.
If you say, look, I promised myself I was gonna
do a solo hunting trip this year. I'd love for
you to come on the next one. I'd love for
you to come in. Uh, it's just not gonna work
out this time around, as simple as that. It's gonna

(01:35:21):
work instead of oh, man, you know, I love to
you for you to come, but I'm just gonna I'm
just gonna go buy myself on this one. Thanks. Mm hmm.
That's gonna feel a little bit less instead of I
say this. It's the same kind of technique when I
say you need to if it's you who needs to
turn down an invitation, So it's flip it if you
need to turn down an invitation. We typically saw Jo.

Speaker 1 (01:35:43):
Just please Randall come with me, right. I would love
it you came with me. Yeah, he don't want to go.

Speaker 5 (01:35:50):
But he doesn't want to go. Uh, instead of the
man I'd love to you know I would, but but
but I but I can't make it. You know, I
got What happens is we have the tendency to over explain.
You know, I love to, but you know I got
the I got the dog, you know, and I gotta
I got a tree that's growing in the yard, Like.

Speaker 1 (01:36:09):
We have this make up the dumbest things.

Speaker 5 (01:36:11):
You know, it's anything anything, and everything ends up being
you know, I got, I'm busy and you know life
and I got you have three.

Speaker 4 (01:36:18):
Tariffs my ankles.

Speaker 5 (01:36:22):
It's this economy, you know. As soon as and there's
that tendency you say so much that the other person
just goes, Look if you just didn't want to come,
just tell me, you know, it becomes disingenuous in a sense.
So what I teaches you start with the no, and
then you have then you instead of the gratitude the know.

(01:36:42):
You begin with the know, then end with the gratitude.
So instead of that thank you but I can't or
thank you so much, I'm not going to do it. Uh,
lead with the no. I can't make it. I hope
it's a wonderful time. I've heard a whole lot of
good things about it. Let me know how it goes,
or I can't make it this go around, I'd love

(01:37:03):
to thank you so much for inviting me. Like that's
how usually goes. We'll say thank you, thank you so
much for inviting me, but I can't make it. Yea,
Instead say I can't make it. Thank you so much
for thinking of me and invite me means a lot.
I hope it's a great time. Like if you can
the same thing, like if there's a new coffee shop,
if you invited me to go with coffee and I
couldn't make it and say no, I'd love to, but

(01:37:26):
but I can't. It would be as simple as beginning.
So let's put it in a framework, begin with the no.
NeXT's gratitude three is if you can sprinkle in some kindness,
So that is I can't make it today, Thank you
so much for inviting me. I hope it's a great time.
Or I heard it's a great place, or you know,
I hope you hope you shoot him straight. Whatever it is.

(01:37:49):
That's that's a much better way to handle it. Got you.

Speaker 1 (01:37:51):
Yeah, my body he used to have. He used to
give breaking up advice for how to break up with people.
I've been out of that game for a long long time.

Speaker 5 (01:38:01):
But was he just like painhandling this on the street,
or like, well, he would.

Speaker 1 (01:38:04):
Tell you, I used to work for my buddy Ronnie.
So he would tell the guys. So Ronnie, like a
lot of guys would work for Ronnie at the age
when we worked for Ronnie was when you were you know, eighteen,
nineteen twenty whatever. And so he would be irritated with
these guys that would be in these relationships that they're together,
broke up together, broke up. So he had like this
school of thought on breakups. I love that he didn't.

(01:38:25):
Like he would advise, when you break up with someone,
you can never give the idea that there's something they
could do to improve things. Right, it's just not working out.

Speaker 5 (01:38:38):
That's so true.

Speaker 1 (01:38:38):
We just don't right, So true. Ronnie would say, it's this.
He would advise you to go say this has nothing
to do with you. This is just entirely me. We're done, Okay, Yeah,
do you like that? That was what he advised because
he's like, anytime you go, well, it's just I feel well,

(01:39:02):
it's it's the yeah, you're creating a thing like well
maybe if I change yes, yeah, and it's just like,
it really has nothing to do with you. This is
my it's just me, like, we're done.

Speaker 5 (01:39:13):
Yeah. So this is the category I put this in
on having a sensitive conversation. It's a little bit different
because most of the time in sensitive conversations let's say
you need to fire somebody, let them go. Let's say
you need to break up. I mean that's essentially what
that is.

Speaker 1 (01:39:28):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:39:28):
We have the tendency to begin with the small talk
of let's say you need to let somebody go. They
sit down in your office and he goes, so, how
you doing everything? Good as your how's your mom? How's
y'all do do? I saw you all went fishing the
other day. You didn'ty good?

Speaker 1 (01:39:43):
We're exactly were you fishing? Yeah exactly, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
And then and then you turn it.

Speaker 5 (01:39:47):
Then you go so listen, uh and they know, Okay,
it's the worst something's coming. This is terrible, Uh, the
worst thing ever. Or the same thing with the if
you're having a conversation with your girlfriend and go, I've
really enjoyed being together. All of a sudden you're talking
in past tense, right, all of a sudden you're in
past tense, and they're like, oh, what's happening?

Speaker 1 (01:40:07):
Hey?

Speaker 5 (01:40:07):
I think you're so great, you know, I really love
what And they're just waiting for it the whole entire time,
and it's it's.

Speaker 1 (01:40:14):
Not really yeah yeah, yeah exactly, and then it's like
it's not you, it's me.

Speaker 4 (01:40:20):
You remember that. Yeah, yeah, that we were together.

Speaker 1 (01:40:23):
Yeah was like, you know, I've enjoyed our time, but uh,
no reason to think we're not going to continue exactly.

Speaker 5 (01:40:33):
You know, whenever you say like, you know, I think
the world of you, like that kind of stuff, that
kind of stuff is like they know something is coming.
Instead when it's instead of using that fluff language, you
tell them this is going to be difficult, and you
can apply this for anything, and you this is so
instead of the fluff, you begin with something that sounds
like this is going to be a hard conversation. Or

(01:40:56):
it can be as simple as this is going to
be a difficult conversation, or you're going to say you're
not gonna like what I have to say?

Speaker 8 (01:41:01):
What about the one like your old man used to
give you, Like this is gonna hurt you more than
it's gonna hit me.

Speaker 5 (01:41:07):
Yeah that Oh yeah, it's always a lie. You know,
it's always a lie. But if they if if even
if they you said something like you're not gonna like
what I have to say, or this is gonna come
as a surprise to you, or this isn't gonna be
fun to discuss whatever that is. That is what you're
doing is preparing them, like readying them for that conversation.

(01:41:28):
Because if I set you down and we're gonna have
a talk and I said, Krin, you're not gonna like
what I have to say, You're gonna kind of you're
gonna kind of like ready yourself to be like okay.
Like that's how your your brain first is gonna say okay,
and then you're gonna deliver the pitch. Yeah, yeah, whatever

(01:41:48):
it is. So, but that's how it would say. So
let's say we needed to break up or something. It'd say, look, grin'
this is gonna or I could put on me I'm
having a our time. I would put it as I
don't like this conversation, or I've been really dreading this conversation,
something as simple as that, like showing a little bit

(01:42:09):
of vulnerability of I've really been dreading this conversation we're
about to have, or I'm not gonna like this conversation,
whatever that is. And then the next thing out of
your mouth is we need to it's it's time, we
need to break up, mm blah blah blah. Or let's
say you need to let them.

Speaker 1 (01:42:26):
Go down some time, time things down.

Speaker 5 (01:42:31):
Yeah, yeah, that kind of stuff is that can be painful.
So instead of the let's say, if I need to
fire you, you come in say this might come as
a shock to you. I need to let you go. Hm,
you've been You've been a fantastic Now I'm giving the conversation.
Yeah yeah, now see now I'm given the compliment Like
now now I'm giving the compliment of you've been a

(01:42:51):
great part of the team. Left having you, I'm looking
forward to after that. Yes, now you're kind of like
trying to show because now it's genuine. Now it's genuine
instead of the hand yeah, instead of you being nervous,
instead of you being nervous, instead of you saying you're
such a great part of the team. You know, we
really And now they're thinking where's this going? Where's this going?
When you lead with the exactly exactly, But everybody's always

(01:43:15):
waiting for the butt, they're waiting for the down, they're
always thinking the worst. So if you lead with the
this is going to be a difficult conversation. I need
to let you go. You've been an awesome part of
the team, and I look forward to where you go
in your career. It's just it's just not going to
be here. I mean that kind of thing is way
more credibility like that, or even if you lead with

(01:43:36):
like yeah, and I look forward to helping you, you know,
move forward and wherever you're going to be in your career.
If you feel like this is somebody you really enjoyed
and you really do wish the best for them, because
it's because then they'll start switching the conversation to where
they go next, what happens next. Rather than complaining about
the present and saying what's wrong with me? What could

(01:43:57):
I have done better? You're staying the decision has been
on and even if I say no, this is a
me decision. So that that's that's kind of like the
what Ronnie was saying. Ronnie, right, I'm saying that this
is this is uh, this is a me things.

Speaker 1 (01:44:13):
I wish he could clean it up.

Speaker 4 (01:44:19):
Right now. It doesn't subscribe to your Instagram channel?

Speaker 5 (01:44:22):
Yeah, yeah, so you a finessed that a little.

Speaker 1 (01:44:24):
What what what I'm picking up about what you're talking about.
I don't know if you frame it this way in
your book, but a lot of it is people think
of conversations a lot of times where they're living and
they're trying to jump in the other person's head. Yeah,
but a lot of what you're saying would kind of
it almost makes it easier for the deliverer. Yes, Like
I could picture if you're dreading firing somebody right right,

(01:44:47):
it's terrible, Like I've had this, it's terrible.

Speaker 5 (01:44:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:44:50):
If you just came and then you're doing the well,
how's this, how's that?

Speaker 5 (01:44:54):
It's all for you.

Speaker 1 (01:44:55):
Yeah, if you just said, like you, I have some
bad I have some some bad news to deliver to you. Yeah,
all of a sudden, you're probably going.

Speaker 5 (01:45:04):
Dude exactly, and then everything else becomes downhill easier because
what you're doing when you're trying to lead with before you,
because the whole conversation is bad news, you're just putting
a label on the whole thing. So if I were
to sit down and you sit down and go, I
got bad news. Like my team, I have a very
small team. But if anything's going on what they do
with me that I've asked for, they say, You're not

(01:45:25):
gonna like what I'm about to say. That's what they say.
So I'll pick up the phone and the first thing
they'll say is Jefferson, you're not gonna like what I
have to say, Or they'll say you're not gonna like this.
That's what they'll do. I'll say, They'll say you're not
gonna like this, and I'll always go, okay, I'm ready,
And whatever I'm thinking of is not as bad as
what they say. You know, I always think of to
the worst, like possible scenario. So that's when they pick

(01:45:45):
up the phone they say, you're not gonna like this,
I'll go ready. No, I mean, that's typically how I
handle it. But yeah, any it's it's much kinder on
the other person. So in terms of let's talk benefits,
it's much kinder on the other person because they're not
getting this, where are we going with this? I'm getting anxious,
they feel the hammer being dropped. Yeah, you're getting straight
to the point. So a lot of the ways that

(01:46:06):
clarity is is kindness. Being direct can be a lot
of a relief, and it's much better on you because
instead of looking at this big hill I gotta get over,
I'm I'm I'm used the front door. That's what is
there for.

Speaker 8 (01:46:19):
That's kind of a lot different than the duck blind
bad caller thing because you could use it on the
bad caller.

Speaker 5 (01:46:27):
Yeah yeah you could, Yeah, you certainly could. You may
don't want to do that in the blind with them
while you're trying to call that.

Speaker 1 (01:46:35):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:46:36):
The line in that scenario I've always used is now's
not the time to practice.

Speaker 1 (01:46:40):
That's a great one.

Speaker 5 (01:46:42):
That's a great one.

Speaker 4 (01:46:43):
Today we're here to kill stuff.

Speaker 1 (01:46:45):
Yeah, practice, I want to hear with a very quick one.
It's a life or death one muscle control. Someone's practicing
bad muscle control. You just right, how do you hit them?
You just got to hit them.

Speaker 4 (01:46:55):
Right front door?

Speaker 5 (01:46:57):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I have had a trial
coach and in law school he would the whole point
would be instead of just trying to say things, help,
hope that Jerry figures it out, they use the front door.
That's what is there for. And so it's that kind
of mentality when you're talking about life or death, when
you're talking about we could really injure somebody, you be
direct as you can. There's no sugar coating, there's no

(01:47:19):
I really care so much about your feelings. This is
we're saving lives.

Speaker 1 (01:47:23):
You know, I love you, man, Yeah, you know, I
love hanging out with you. Yeah, yeah, it's great to
have you here, you know, but uh, yeah, you know,
sometimes I notice your muslim at my forehead.

Speaker 5 (01:47:36):
Exactly exactly exactly.

Speaker 4 (01:47:38):
It's currently aimed at my ankle. Yeah, I don't like
that either.

Speaker 5 (01:47:41):
But yeah, yeah, there's definitely sometimes for true conversation. But
when you're out in the field like that, yeah, sometimes
you just gotta you gotta lay it out because it's, uh,
it's either that or your ankle. It's kind of the mandalorian.

Speaker 1 (01:47:55):
Who's got this one that's in purple right now.

Speaker 4 (01:47:58):
Do you ever run across trial attorneys where you're like, now,
it's not not the time to practice here, go get go,
get yourself a coach.

Speaker 5 (01:48:05):
Uh are you talking about like ed in trial and
co with your I mean typically not, because you have
like a first chair, second chair. There's kind of a hierarchy.
I I like going to trials by myself at the
table because I don't want the jury thinking that I
have like a huge team. So I will only bring

(01:48:26):
one pair legal and they'll sit in the back. I
don't have like a whole and I carry my own boxes.
I don't have the others. I have like a pair
of legal brings in like all their boxes, and they're
the ones that they think that they're like the talent.
They have to sit at the table and everybody else
bring them snacks and stuff. Anyway, Uh yeah, I probably
probably not, not in the trial sense, but there are
times in it, let's say, in a deposition, they'll like

(01:48:47):
try and slide you questions that you think you should ask,
and sometimes they're valuable. But I've had it where I've
had like a very new associate where I read the
first one and it was like an absolute horrible question,
Like it was absolutely not I'm not gonna because I
know in my head if I asked that that's what's
going to happen. He doesn't have that knowledge yet, so
instead he might just pass it and without looking I

(01:49:09):
just pass it back. You know. It's like we'll talk
about it in a break. Let me use as a
teaching moment. But I like that your head's thinking. I
like that you're trying to It's like that, I like
that you're trying to practice. I like that you're trying
to be part of what we're doing. Now is not
the time, Let's.

Speaker 1 (01:49:25):
Do one more because it was a good one. Randall
you you're one about money.

Speaker 6 (01:49:28):
Oh yes, Uh, you would like to spend or may
have already spent an excessive amount of money on a
trip or piece of gear. How do you rationalize it
to your partner or to a friend. Okay, Like sometimes
you have like a a stupid purchase and people are like, wow,

(01:49:51):
you spent money on that or whatever.

Speaker 4 (01:49:52):
I mean, I feel like this is one of the awkward.

Speaker 6 (01:49:55):
Conversations that that you run into.

Speaker 1 (01:49:59):
Now.

Speaker 6 (01:49:59):
It's like, how do you old a case for something
that is valuable to you but maybe not to other people?

Speaker 2 (01:50:04):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (01:50:04):
Yeah. Sometimes you have like a friend and you know
all about them, and all of a sudden they show
up with a brand new track and you're like, god,
I hope somebody died. Yeah, you can't have. You shouldn't
be getting a new.

Speaker 5 (01:50:14):
Track, right, Yeah, it's like the last thing they should
be doing.

Speaker 1 (01:50:16):
If you're talking about in a relationship, when you pool
your money and you've got to go buy something you
can't you want to, you don't still want to be
bothered trying to explain why you had to buy it.

Speaker 8 (01:50:25):
I don't know if it's a big expense and you're
you're like springing it on them, afterwards.

Speaker 1 (01:50:30):
Well, that's where we're here to ask the extent and.

Speaker 7 (01:50:31):
To add context. We've we pulled our audience before five
hundred listeners asked a question, have you ever lied to
a significant other about the price of gear? And it
was over seventy percent of them have lied to a
significant other.

Speaker 5 (01:50:43):
They probably lied on that too, They probably I've obfuscated
the price of gear yeah, yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:50:51):
Okay, rather than you were like massaging the truth.

Speaker 1 (01:50:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:50:55):
Yeah, I'll never say it was like, I'll be like
it was about two hundred dollars, two hundred and eighty
nine dollars.

Speaker 5 (01:51:02):
Yeah, And you find, like, I feel like the conversation
is a little different when it's a spouse or a
significant other versus just a buddy.

Speaker 1 (01:51:12):
You don't be a business partner, no, I mean partner.

Speaker 5 (01:51:15):
Yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:51:16):
I was present at the return of an item that
I had no interest in Randalls no, no, no, of
my girlfriend okay, and and we we don't pull money.
But I started laughing and I was like, that's how
much that cost? Yeah? And you know it was a

(01:51:39):
guy executing the exchange and he's like, you didn't tell
her about this?

Speaker 5 (01:51:44):
Yeah, that's hilarious.

Speaker 4 (01:51:47):
My girlfriend, it's like it's not his money.

Speaker 1 (01:51:50):
Yeah, you know, I mean.

Speaker 4 (01:51:51):
It's a point, funny funny.

Speaker 5 (01:51:53):
I mean, like, so it comes to mind for me,
is yeah, if you're pulling money, there's a very big difference.
You just all of a sudden show up with, you know,
a thousand dollars worth of hunting. I feel like clothes
are so expensive now that you don't at least have
that conversation about it. Now. To me, a lot of
it is it's none other business. If it's a partner,

(01:52:18):
I'm I'm gonna want to have that conversation if you
can beforehand, unless you're unless you're just unless you're okay
with having the fight about it later.

Speaker 6 (01:52:28):
I'm wondering how to set myself up for success in
those types of conversations.

Speaker 4 (01:52:33):
Yeah, you come across a hot deal trying to keep.

Speaker 1 (01:52:36):
The relationships together. Yeah, relationship together. You're trying to get
what your stuff.

Speaker 6 (01:52:40):
Yeah, I don't want to say like, hey, I know
this is really stupid, Okay, but there's this.

Speaker 5 (01:52:46):
Basically how he did that. He's how he did that.
I know this is really stupid, but yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:52:50):
See that's that's what I'm wondering. I mean, now, I'm
my instincts. You've turned my head on all my instincts
in these types of conversations where I'll over explain the
benefits of going on said trip or or purchasing said item. Yeah,
you know, how do we how do we set ourselves
up for success? I like the idea of argue less,

(01:53:10):
talk more, but I'd also like to win.

Speaker 9 (01:53:13):
Yeah, you know, I'm going to tell you about a
gun that i'd like, and we're gonna walk away from
this conversation with you understanding.

Speaker 1 (01:53:23):
That I should get this. We're gonna walk away from
this conversation with me owning that gun. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:53:33):
I feel like that's probably not exactly what he teaches.

Speaker 1 (01:53:35):
Yeah, it's a little different.

Speaker 5 (01:53:37):
It's slightly different. Like I think there's also what I
have seen work is as one is whether or not
you give the permission to even buy the purchase, Because
if you feel like you have to get permission, then
then you feel like you have to hold court on
whether it is or not worth your time, is or

(01:53:57):
not worth your and the you have to feel like
you're over explaining, and then we get frustrated having to
justify a world that they don't understand.

Speaker 1 (01:54:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:54:03):
And so instead of the hey, so I'm hoping to buy,
I would switch it to I'm going to buy and
that sounds a lot more definite of Hey, I'm going
to go buy a rifle. And also this is this
element too of and this applies to a lot of
different contexts. But I say, when it comes to giving
your case on something, don't be a waterfall. Be a

(01:54:27):
well meaning. Instead of feeling like I have to anticipate
all of your questions and I have to go ahead
and fend off every arrow you're gonna send shoot my way,
and I have to just blah blah blah blah blah
blah blah blah, which is only going to guarantee you're
gonna get a lot more questions about it. Be a
well meaning, they're going to have to ask a question.
You'd be very short. They're going to have to ask
a question. I do this with a depositions, So I

(01:54:50):
trained my witnesses to make the attorney ask the question.
So don't just try and I guess where they're going
with their questioning. Don't try and give the more. The
longer of an answer you give, you're guaranteed to get
more questions period. It's the same thing with asking anybody
for anything. So if you're just gonna say, hey, I'm
going out to purchase this gun nitas for this whatever trip,

(01:55:15):
allow don't try and anticipate the question. Just allow them
to to ask.

Speaker 1 (01:55:19):
Yeah, what if you come in and you act like
you're mad about it?

Speaker 5 (01:55:23):
I got yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, that's probably a really
good technique. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, it's like I gotta
do this, Like then you act like it's a big
uh inconvenience.

Speaker 1 (01:55:36):
Oh it'll be okay, sweet, just pick a good one.

Speaker 5 (01:55:39):
Yeah yeah, yeah, well well that's true. You can you could, uh,
you could try and do that and get them on
your side. Go get you a good one.

Speaker 4 (01:55:46):
But opportunity a lifetime. It's pre cited in does that exist.

Speaker 7 (01:55:52):
Yeah, you can try crying randall. If that doesn't work.

Speaker 1 (01:55:55):
Yeah, a little kid.

Speaker 5 (01:55:57):
You have a kid with a cast about.

Speaker 8 (01:55:58):
Getting to the friends, Like, do you've not got to
justify that?

Speaker 6 (01:56:02):
Like no, no, I mean no, no, yeah, no, I
don't know. It's just I was just trying not to
make it about my marriage.

Speaker 5 (01:56:10):
Yeah, you know, so what would happen? My grandfather would
say it a little bit, Yeah, my grandfather would use
this line. He'd say it found its way to me.
That's what he'd say, Hey, I just it's found its
way to me. Like that's like he just he went
out and bought way too many fishing rods or whatever
it is. Lures he didn't. I remember, he came in
with like a huge he learned about, like he could
buy in bulk. And so we had these lures called

(01:56:32):
slugos and yeah, yeah, yeah and so and uh when
they first came out and uh, he goes. First thing
he says was they just they found their way to me,
you know, like yeah exactly. They're like, oh okay, all.

Speaker 1 (01:56:45):
Right, we're gonna wrap it up. But uh, everybody check
out the next conversation. I'm gonna you know how I said,
didn't read it. Yeah, I'm gonna read it.

Speaker 5 (01:56:53):
Oh awesome, thanks, I'm not lying.

Speaker 1 (01:56:54):
It sits on my bed, it sits on my stack.

Speaker 5 (01:56:58):
Yeah, thank you. Man.

Speaker 1 (01:57:00):
You're waiting behind. You're in line behind a book about
jaguars and a book about Kate Buffalo. Oh all right,
this comes up.

Speaker 5 (01:57:08):
This I'm honored.

Speaker 1 (01:57:09):
The next conversation, argue, let's talk more. Jefferson Fisher, thanks
many learn how to get all kinds of permissions, all
kinds of guns.

Speaker 4 (01:57:17):
There you go.

Speaker 1 (01:57:18):
I'm looking for how to get on public lands.

Speaker 7 (01:57:20):
I really respect Goodreads ratings. Your book has a four
point six to two. That's outstanding, awesome. It's hard to
find a book about four point five.

Speaker 1 (01:57:28):
So really fantastic congratulation. Thank you very much.

Speaker 5 (01:57:31):
I appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:57:32):
Ladies, gentlemen, Jefferson Fisher, thanks for coming on.

Speaker 5 (01:57:34):
Thanks man, Thank you

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Steven Rinella

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 702: How To Argue About Hunting and Fishing Like A Lawyer with Jefferson Fisher