July 15, 2025 • 23 mins
Steven Rinella talks with Joash Vomo, Executive Director of the Robin Hurt Wildlife Foundation and Anti-Poaching & Community Coordinator.
Topics Discussed: Buy a raffle ticket for the chance to win TRCP’s annual turkey hunt with Steve and Jani; subsistence poaching vs. selling poached game meat on the black market; snares big enough to catch a cape buffalo; homemade muzzle loaders; the punishment for poaching a giraffe, Tanzania’s national animal; how a poacher becomes an anti-poacher; community-based conservation; patrolling waterways; how black mambas can stand on their tales, chase cars, and kill you in a matter of minutes; and more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Everybody, welcome to flop four of our dispatches from Africa.
I'm joined here to talk about poaching in Africa and
anti poaching efforts in Africa with Joe ash Bomo, known
as JJ around these parts, who works with Robin Hurt
Safaris on community development projects and anti poaching efforts. And
(00:55):
we're going to talk a little bit about how those
two things actually have something to do with with each other.
Before we get into that subject, I want to remind
everyone right now we have the raffle is open. The
window to buy raffle tickets is open for our annual
TRCP fundraiser Turkey Hunt. For many years now, we run
(01:17):
a raffle where and we pick a winner and that
winter brings along a friend to go turkey hunting with me.
And the honis you tell us when you win, you
and your friend. We cover your airfare, We hook you
up with any gear you might need for the trip.
We cover the price of your turkey tag, We cover food, lodging, everything,
(01:38):
We pay you. You don't pay anything. We pay everything
for you, guys to come turkey hunt. You'll spend three
nights with us. We'll have two full days of turkey hunting.
We do it every year. We bounce around different spots
we want to hunt. We always have a ton of luck.
The raffle is open from now to the end of July.
All the expenses for the turkey hunt are covered by
(02:00):
a donor a buddy mine covers all the expenses. All
of the raffle ticket money goes directly to TRCP and
trcp's uh you know, their slogan again is guaranteeing Americans
quality places the hunting fish. All the money stays on
mission when you buy a raffle ticket. The recent public
lands fight that we lived through, TRCP was front and
(02:21):
center and getting that squared away and leading us to
a big victory in that battle. So get your raffle tickets.
Now back to the subject, you joy as you you're Tanzania.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Born, Yeah, somet okay, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
How did you? How did you ever get into the
career that you're in? Like? What what led you down
that path?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I stuted out in community development. I joined Robin hatw
had left foundation as an int okay, yeah, like twelve
years ago. So we were doing community jects in the
communities that surround the areas that Robin had Safaris has
(03:06):
for hunting. So that's how I got in and also
I did I was doing also anti poaching patrols, mostly
in this area. I've done quite a bit of patrols.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
You've been doing patrols here patrol Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I've been doing it, yeah for a while.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yes, in the US, when we hear poaching in Africa, right,
nine out of ten people their mind goes to elfant
ivory and rhino horns. How is that accurate? I mean,
(03:42):
in what ways? Is it a more complicated picture than that,
like like, but that is what people think when they
hear those words.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Of course, the largely the poaching in Tanzania is is
just for substinence, but then you have the big poachers
will go for the elephants and the rhinos. Of course
there's not any more rhinos left. Yeah, but that was
(04:09):
in the seventies and eighties. There has been elephant poaching
for but we haven't had any incident for the last
ten years, we haven't had any incident.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
With elephant poaching.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
And also the government really came down hard on elephant
poaching and rhino poaching.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, so what is poaching today? You deal with?
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, poaching today? What to deal with. What to deal
with is mostly for I can say it's there's a
market for game meat, which is usually buffalo or any
animal that they can get on a snare. So, and
there's a belief, like in giraffe meat that it has
(04:53):
some healing capabilities, so then there's a market also for that. So,
but it's usually for the meat. That's what most of
the poachers go for. It's it's like a black market,
you know. So they hunt and they poach and they
sell the meat to various places in a black market.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, is it? Is it common you'd be able to
go into a city or a town in Tanzania and
if you looked around you would find game animals for
sale and the open or is it? Is it more discreet?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
No, it is very very discrete. Yeah, they don't do
it in the open. A few years ago the government
opened up gay meat butcheries so that to give the
local people a chance for so to get an animal. Legally,
there are places where the locals can can go and hunt.
They get a permit, they go with a government game
(05:47):
scout and they can hunt an animal. And yeah, if
you have the if you have the license, then you
can you can sell it, but it's not that much.
It's very rare, so most of the game meat is
sold very discreetly, and to select a number of people
who I think the Pachas have some sort of relationship with.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
We've in the time I've been hanging around here, I've
heard a number of people mentioned snaring. In the US,
and in most states you can set you can set
snares for fur bearing animals. It's very regulated. Okay, okay,
you guys are talking about a type of snaring that
it's more meant to just well one to catch like
(06:29):
large game, big game animals, to catch me animals. How
are the snares employed? What are they made of? Like,
what does it look like when you encounter a snare
set up?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
It's, uh, they use wire, so it's they put it
close to watahs and on the on river beds, so
it's it's a waya that's it's round.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And then the animal goes in. It starts to.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Show me how big they make the.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
The loop can be quite big, you know, it can
be like it's it's big. It's it's like this big.
So even a buffalo head can go so you can, Yeah,
they'll snare something that.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah they can, Yeah, they can do it.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And then you also I hear guys talk about a
muzzle order. Yes, now we can buy a muzzle order. Yeah,
right at the store. Yes, these are not store about.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
No, no, they're not.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Usually you find that a lot of the people with
muzzle loaders, they they got the skilled down from their grandparents,
so they can make one and they use like a
piece of metal this big and put it in there
like a bullet and they have gunpowder and they shoot
it out. Others have some very old, very old muzzle loaders,
(07:52):
which I believe that they got from You know, a
lot of people from this area during the First World Wow,
they were used as the as fighting during the First
World the First World War in Africa, and they said
so they were part of the German German local army
(08:13):
and later on they became the kings of African rifles.
So some of them came back home with the with
them as all and so it got handed down.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah. So yeah, you find them from time to time.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So when you're you're out of patrol, and you guys
do will do thirty day patrols, yes, and and and
in necessary you're patrolling I keep telling this like to
our audience. I keep trying to explain, like this this
reserve that we're on, Yes, it borders a large national
park on one of its borders. It's a it's a
game reserve. That's the size of we have a very
(08:47):
large famous park called Yellowstone National Park the US. It's
that size. Yes, you do thirty day patrols. Yes, Let's
say you you catch somebody, Okay, you encounter poetrycoun guy
in camp. He's got a llegal, he's got snare equipment,
he's got me is it are you at liberty to
(09:08):
make an arrest? Like? How do you approach the situation?
What do you do when you find someone?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Okay, during our patrols, we have two to four government
game scouts. They're the ones legally who are allowed to
apprehend a person who is caught poaching or doing any
anything illegal. So as soon as we get the guy
or culprits, we have twenty four hours to present him,
(09:33):
uh to to to the relevant authorities.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
You can detain twenty four hours.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yeah, so what we do during the twenty four hours
we will do our best to make our way out
of the area and go and he goes to the
police station and he stays there until then the evidence
comes in and then it becomes a court case from there.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah, and what kind of fine Like, let let's take
let's take something in the extreme. Uh, there's Girafts here,
we see him most days. Yeah, it's the national animal. Okay,
So it'd be like our equivalent would be the bald
eagle or national bird. If you kill a bald eagle,
you're in a ton of trouble. You catch a guy
(10:11):
with something like that, what sort of like, what is
the punishment that if you've got a good case and
you can prove it, what would be the punishment for
something like that?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
A punishment for that is close to twenty is in jail.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah, yes, I keep hearing. You know guys at Robin Hurtsafaris,
how about that. A lot of staff people they hire
would be people that reformed poachers. Maybe people kids that
start out poaching at a very young age, you know,
fourteen fifteen years old, that kind of get brought on
(10:48):
and cultivated and given like career positions within the organization. Yes,
what are they getting caught doing that that you would
not that they wouldn't have to go off to jail
for a number years, but that they have an opportunity
to come, you know, be out in the bush and
work with wildlife, but work in a productive way.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah, of course, Well you find them, you are somewhere
caught setting up snaares. Others you find maybe they were
holding the game meet, you know, because if for example,
they poach a buffalo, they'll stay out in the field,
you know, to dry it out and everything, then put
it in sacks, and so they need guys to move
(11:29):
the sacks out. So you find kids like that, You
might catch a kid so and and some of them
don't even know if they're doing something that's illegal. So
after we educate them and rehabilitate them, then we give
them an opportunity, so they join our anti poaching units.
That's where most of the guys that you have hunting
(11:51):
with you started from. So they started they starting that
poaching unit. And as they progress they go they become
trackers because also they have they are very good with
the area because they've.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Been there since they were young.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
And also they are very good trackers in following up
looking at the animal trucks.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So it's a benefit.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
So you just show them that you know, if you
do it this way, it's legal and it's going to
benefit you and your family instead of doing this which
you might end up in jail, so it's.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
A better option for them.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Next, talk about what community development means and how does
like what is the relationship between community development and anti pouching.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
The word that we use is community based conservation. So
what we do is we help the communities in projects
for them to see the actual benefits that come from
protecting the wildlife. You know, the projects come from the
communities around so if they can see a direct benefit
(13:00):
comes from preserving and conserving the wildlife that they have,
or even helping us in finding out about the purchase.
Like two months ago, we got information about people with
two muzle loaders and they were caught before they could
do anything, and it was because of the community informing
(13:20):
our antipproaching units about such people. So it's projects, it's schools.
We've built schools in this area. We've built health dispensaries,
we are currently working on renovating one in the village
that we went to in Lumbey, and we've set up waterwils.
(13:42):
We've supported children who have finished primary school going into
secondary school. So these benefits which the community can see
and touch, the tangible benefits that come from them partnering
with us in protect the wildlife and the area, so
that whatever that's got from hunters who come that there's
(14:07):
a percentage that goes back to the community, so it's
a direct benefit to them. So in that way, they
help us in being also custodians and fellow protectors of
the wildlife.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Yeah, do you find in the surrounding communities that you're
working that areas benefactive, Like, do people wind up having
a positive attitude towards the wild landscapes there here? Oh?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yes, yes, people are very positive. But as in everything,
there's always a few characters who always find a way
because you find it's something that they've been doing for
generations and generations. To them, it's just a way of life,
approaching illegal fishing and you know, illegal timber harvesting. So
(14:51):
there's still a few, you know, characters who haven't it
hasn't really gotten into their heads. But for the most part,
the communities are very receptive and very supportive of what
we do over here.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I want to back up a minute. There's the thing
I failed to ask you about you just brought up.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
There's a big fishing component here, yes, because you're on
a very large lake, there's a river system, and there
is legal fishing. Yes there is, okay, but you're still
patrol and you guys patrol and regulate the fishing. And
where I live, it would be that we have game
wardens hired by the different states, and the game wardens
patrol the waterways and it's checking licenses, checking what equipment
(15:35):
you use, checking that you have fish you're allowed to have.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
You don't have too many, right, Yes, they're just doing
that work all the time, and they interact with fishermen. Yes,
and that's sounds very.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Similar basically the same thing. We Also what we do
is we facilitate the government game offices so that we
go with them and also you find that we have
we have more of a feel of the area. You know,
the game scouts come and go, they get changed, so
(16:07):
we have our teams with them even on the water
and they check you have to have a valid license,
and we have to check the type of fish you caught.
There's also the size of the net that you have
so that you don't catch the small fish. So we
it's almost the same thing as you described. We we
we have to do that on the lake and also
on the river. And also even by doing that, it's
(16:31):
also because poaching if it can't come in, and if
they can't come in on land, then they'll they'll come
in through the water. So by having patrols, then we
have a way of controlling the guys who would come
and poach and then put it on a boat and
go and go out.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So it helps.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yes, Is there anything I missed that you feel like
you should tell me about?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Well, not really, Moan.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Let's talk like Morgan Potter's not here. Okay, Morgan Potter
tells us all about we got a little worked up
about black mamas just from hearing the bottom, reading the bottom,
He's like, you'll never see one, okay, right away, there's
a damn black mama right in uddle of the road.
How many black Like, how many black mambas per day
(17:23):
are you running into.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
In a normal day? Went running into one? Okay?
Speaker 1 (17:28):
How many per week?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Per week? Okay?
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Like for the week, I've had running into two and
uh and one of them really chased us.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
You know, it's a.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
It's a so I didn't know, but I had heard
of black mamas. I knew they were bad or like
I knew there was like a snake to be wrackinged with. Yes,
they run their neck up like lockness monster. Oh yeah,
they stunned with the crews around with their head like
up here. Yeah, they could stand on their tail like
(18:03):
literally they're like an attack. Oh yeah, it is. It's
quite aggressive, very territorial.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Chases people around, chases people can't even chase the car.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
It can't even Yeah, it can go up to you.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
You'll never see one. Yeah, here's the funniest part about
the funniest part about we see a black mom. But yeah, he,
like the black mom like honestly considers attacking our car. Yeah,
he like runs through his mind. He false charges the
car and then goes off. And then we like drive
off and we don't go a mile and someone looks
out the side of the road there's another one and
(18:35):
Morgan's like, no, that's a that's a cobra.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Cobra.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think if you, if you, if you
had to choose, you're better off meeting a cobra than
than than a black mom.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
But it's it's it's really it's we call it over here.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Sudden death, you know, yeah, sudden death. But you have
traditional helas. We'll say they can fix you up, fix
you up, but you're never sure up about it.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Inter snake we saw it was seem very benign. I mean,
I know they're not, but he seemed very like just
a chill snake because we saw a puff adder.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Oh yeah, he's very chill. You know.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
He can you can want trouble. Yeah, you can even
step on him and he won't do anything to you.
But a black mamba, you startled it or you're just
like in its surroundings and like it's coming back.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
To its whole. Like bug here, it would really chase
us away. Here.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
This one was going down the road and we pulled
up on it, and he turns and comes back towards Yes,
the truck.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
It's not scared of anything. Yeah, that's the truth.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
About respect for him. Yeah, but then you've been in
this business twelve years. Yeah, you do mega patrols out here,
you do long patrols out here. You've never been struck
by one.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Well, I wouldn't be here if I was so.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, that's proof I've never been struck by one.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
We've we've had close clothes earlier. This.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, uh, some of our guys were chasing a poacher
and as soon as they got close to him, he
he did. He turned around and was going towards the
vehicle on it on his own. It's because he had
seen a black number. So when the guys got there,
it stood up, and so they also started running back.
And it's very rare for it to happen. But as
(20:24):
soon as they get to the to the pickup, they
found that there was another one close by, so it
also stood up. So it was a bit of a
crazy day. Luckily no one was bitten.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
We have a we have a similar animal in the
northern We have a mountain range called the Rocky Mountains,
and in the northern end of the Rocky Mountains we
have a bear called a grizzy berry.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yes. Uh.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
People that live around there are generally very relaxed, so like, sure,
you see him, it doesn't mean it's going to kill you. Yeah,
you just get used to it. And then people come
from far away and they go there and all they
talk about is grizzly bears, and then people that live
there get annoyed with them for talking about grizzly bears.
All the time. Were those guys, were those guys about
(21:09):
black mams?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Oh yeah, but but even the you know, the people
around here who live around here, that's really one one
snake that they're really scared of.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
That's the truth. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
So you can find a few brave people who are
ready to confront it, but most would rather just go
the other way. Yeah, it's it's really scary. Yeah, that's
the truth. We U There's a guy, a honey guy
that was beaten two weeks ago because sometimes they go
and stay inside a beehive. So while he was opening
(21:44):
it up, it struck him and.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
He how ells, he get into the beehive, it.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Goes up, climbs up the tree because the behave is
on top of and goes inside there. It seems the
bees no, don't mind him, but don't mind it. So
he opened it up up and it struck him and
three hours later he was he was dead. Yeah, and
and for me three hours, I'm like, oh, okay, it
took a while because it's usually thirty to forty forty
(22:11):
five minutes, I know, but yeah, I was also surprised
that three hours Okay, yeah, but yeah, so it's it's
a very dangerous snake. They are not so many. They
are very rare, and they only come out early in
the morning during the day and later in the evening
they go back.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yes, yeah, right, well, thanks for the thanks for the conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Okay, thank you, thank you for.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Your efforts on behalf Wildlife. Yeah, thanks for your efforts
at making us see more chill about black moms. I'm
actually pretty chill about black Yeah. I know, I like,
I don't, I have no problem. Yeah, it's skinning. Yeahs
Kanny Seth run around.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
It's real, baby, I'm sure it's it's a real adrenaline
adrenaline russion.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
It's good for that, good for that. It's like bungee jumping.
Everybody, welcome to flop four of our dispatches from Africa.
I'm joined here to talk about poaching in Africa and
anti poaching efforts in Africa with Joe ash Bomo, known
as JJ around these parts, who works with Robin Hurt
Safaris on community development projects and anti poaching efforts. And
(00:55):
we're going to talk a little bit about how those
two things actually have something to do with with each other.
Before we get into that subject, I want to remind
everyone right now we have the raffle is open. The
window to buy raffle tickets is open for our annual
TRCP fundraiser Turkey Hunt. For many years now, we run
(01:17):
a raffle where and we pick a winner and that
winter brings along a friend to go turkey hunting with me.
And the honis you tell us when you win, you
and your friend. We cover your airfare, We hook you
up with any gear you might need for the trip.
We cover the price of your turkey tag, We cover food, lodging, everything,
(01:38):
We pay you. You don't pay anything. We pay everything
for you, guys to come turkey hunt. You'll spend three
nights with us. We'll have two full days of turkey hunting.
We do it every year. We bounce around different spots
we want to hunt. We always have a ton of luck.
The raffle is open from now to the end of July.
All the expenses for the turkey hunt are covered by
(02:00):
a donor a buddy mine covers all the expenses. All
of the raffle ticket money goes directly to TRCP and
trcp's uh you know, their slogan again is guaranteeing Americans
quality places the hunting fish. All the money stays on
mission when you buy a raffle ticket. The recent public
lands fight that we lived through, TRCP was front and
(02:21):
center and getting that squared away and leading us to
a big victory in that battle. So get your raffle tickets.
Now back to the subject, you joy as you you're Tanzania.
Speaker 2 (02:34):
Born, Yeah, somet okay, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
How did you? How did you ever get into the
career that you're in? Like? What what led you down
that path?
Speaker 3 (02:45):
I stuted out in community development. I joined Robin hatw
had left foundation as an int okay, yeah, like twelve
years ago. So we were doing community jects in the
communities that surround the areas that Robin had Safaris has
(03:06):
for hunting. So that's how I got in and also
I did I was doing also anti poaching patrols, mostly
in this area. I've done quite a bit of patrols.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
You've been doing patrols here patrol Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
I've been doing it, yeah for a while.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
Yes, in the US, when we hear poaching in Africa, right,
nine out of ten people their mind goes to elfant
ivory and rhino horns. How is that accurate? I mean,
(03:42):
in what ways? Is it a more complicated picture than that,
like like, but that is what people think when they
hear those words.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
Of course, the largely the poaching in Tanzania is is
just for substinence, but then you have the big poachers
will go for the elephants and the rhinos. Of course
there's not any more rhinos left. Yeah, but that was
(04:09):
in the seventies and eighties. There has been elephant poaching
for but we haven't had any incident for the last
ten years, we haven't had any incident.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
With elephant poaching.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
And also the government really came down hard on elephant
poaching and rhino poaching.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yeah, so what is poaching today? You deal with?
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Well, poaching today? What to deal with. What to deal
with is mostly for I can say it's there's a
market for game meat, which is usually buffalo or any
animal that they can get on a snare. So, and
there's a belief, like in giraffe meat that it has
(04:53):
some healing capabilities, so then there's a market also for that. So,
but it's usually for the meat. That's what most of
the poachers go for. It's it's like a black market,
you know. So they hunt and they poach and they
sell the meat to various places in a black market.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
Yeah, is it? Is it common you'd be able to
go into a city or a town in Tanzania and
if you looked around you would find game animals for
sale and the open or is it? Is it more discreet?
Speaker 3 (05:27):
No, it is very very discrete. Yeah, they don't do
it in the open. A few years ago the government
opened up gay meat butcheries so that to give the
local people a chance for so to get an animal. Legally,
there are places where the locals can can go and hunt.
They get a permit, they go with a government game
(05:47):
scout and they can hunt an animal. And yeah, if
you have the if you have the license, then you
can you can sell it, but it's not that much.
It's very rare, so most of the game meat is
sold very discreetly, and to select a number of people
who I think the Pachas have some sort of relationship with.
Speaker 1 (06:07):
We've in the time I've been hanging around here, I've
heard a number of people mentioned snaring. In the US,
and in most states you can set you can set
snares for fur bearing animals. It's very regulated. Okay, okay,
you guys are talking about a type of snaring that
it's more meant to just well one to catch like
(06:29):
large game, big game animals, to catch me animals. How
are the snares employed? What are they made of? Like,
what does it look like when you encounter a snare
set up?
Speaker 3 (06:41):
It's, uh, they use wire, so it's they put it
close to watahs and on the on river beds, so
it's it's a waya that's it's round.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
And then the animal goes in. It starts to.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Show me how big they make the.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
The loop can be quite big, you know, it can
be like it's it's big. It's it's like this big.
So even a buffalo head can go so you can, Yeah,
they'll snare something that.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Yeah they can, Yeah, they can do it.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
And then you also I hear guys talk about a
muzzle order. Yes, now we can buy a muzzle order. Yeah,
right at the store. Yes, these are not store about.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
No, no, they're not.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Usually you find that a lot of the people with
muzzle loaders, they they got the skilled down from their grandparents,
so they can make one and they use like a
piece of metal this big and put it in there
like a bullet and they have gunpowder and they shoot
it out. Others have some very old, very old muzzle loaders,
(07:52):
which I believe that they got from You know, a
lot of people from this area during the First World Wow,
they were used as the as fighting during the First
World the First World War in Africa, and they said
so they were part of the German German local army
(08:13):
and later on they became the kings of African rifles.
So some of them came back home with the with
them as all and so it got handed down.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
Yeah. So yeah, you find them from time to time.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
So when you're you're out of patrol, and you guys
do will do thirty day patrols, yes, and and and
in necessary you're patrolling I keep telling this like to
our audience. I keep trying to explain, like this this
reserve that we're on, Yes, it borders a large national
park on one of its borders. It's a it's a
game reserve. That's the size of we have a very
(08:47):
large famous park called Yellowstone National Park the US. It's
that size. Yes, you do thirty day patrols. Yes, Let's
say you you catch somebody, Okay, you encounter poetrycoun guy
in camp. He's got a llegal, he's got snare equipment,
he's got me is it are you at liberty to
(09:08):
make an arrest? Like? How do you approach the situation?
What do you do when you find someone?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
Okay, during our patrols, we have two to four government
game scouts. They're the ones legally who are allowed to
apprehend a person who is caught poaching or doing any
anything illegal. So as soon as we get the guy
or culprits, we have twenty four hours to present him,
(09:33):
uh to to to the relevant authorities.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
You can detain twenty four hours.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Yeah, so what we do during the twenty four hours
we will do our best to make our way out
of the area and go and he goes to the
police station and he stays there until then the evidence
comes in and then it becomes a court case from there.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
Yeah, and what kind of fine Like, let let's take
let's take something in the extreme. Uh, there's Girafts here,
we see him most days. Yeah, it's the national animal. Okay,
So it'd be like our equivalent would be the bald
eagle or national bird. If you kill a bald eagle,
you're in a ton of trouble. You catch a guy
(10:11):
with something like that, what sort of like, what is
the punishment that if you've got a good case and
you can prove it, what would be the punishment for
something like that?
Speaker 3 (10:20):
A punishment for that is close to twenty is in jail.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yeah, yes, I keep hearing. You know guys at Robin Hurtsafaris,
how about that. A lot of staff people they hire
would be people that reformed poachers. Maybe people kids that
start out poaching at a very young age, you know,
fourteen fifteen years old, that kind of get brought on
(10:48):
and cultivated and given like career positions within the organization. Yes,
what are they getting caught doing that that you would
not that they wouldn't have to go off to jail
for a number years, but that they have an opportunity
to come, you know, be out in the bush and
work with wildlife, but work in a productive way.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah, of course, Well you find them, you are somewhere
caught setting up snaares. Others you find maybe they were
holding the game meet, you know, because if for example,
they poach a buffalo, they'll stay out in the field,
you know, to dry it out and everything, then put
it in sacks, and so they need guys to move
(11:29):
the sacks out. So you find kids like that, You
might catch a kid so and and some of them
don't even know if they're doing something that's illegal. So
after we educate them and rehabilitate them, then we give
them an opportunity, so they join our anti poaching units.
That's where most of the guys that you have hunting
(11:51):
with you started from. So they started they starting that
poaching unit. And as they progress they go they become
trackers because also they have they are very good with
the area because they've.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Been there since they were young.
Speaker 3 (12:05):
And also they are very good trackers in following up
looking at the animal trucks.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
So it's a benefit.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
So you just show them that you know, if you
do it this way, it's legal and it's going to
benefit you and your family instead of doing this which
you might end up in jail, so it's.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
A better option for them.
Speaker 1 (12:26):
Next, talk about what community development means and how does
like what is the relationship between community development and anti pouching.
Speaker 3 (12:38):
The word that we use is community based conservation. So
what we do is we help the communities in projects
for them to see the actual benefits that come from
protecting the wildlife. You know, the projects come from the
communities around so if they can see a direct benefit
(13:00):
comes from preserving and conserving the wildlife that they have,
or even helping us in finding out about the purchase.
Like two months ago, we got information about people with
two muzle loaders and they were caught before they could
do anything, and it was because of the community informing
(13:20):
our antipproaching units about such people. So it's projects, it's schools.
We've built schools in this area. We've built health dispensaries,
we are currently working on renovating one in the village
that we went to in Lumbey, and we've set up waterwils.
(13:42):
We've supported children who have finished primary school going into
secondary school. So these benefits which the community can see
and touch, the tangible benefits that come from them partnering
with us in protect the wildlife and the area, so
that whatever that's got from hunters who come that there's
(14:07):
a percentage that goes back to the community, so it's
a direct benefit to them. So in that way, they
help us in being also custodians and fellow protectors of
the wildlife.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
Yeah, do you find in the surrounding communities that you're
working that areas benefactive, Like, do people wind up having
a positive attitude towards the wild landscapes there here? Oh?
Speaker 3 (14:29):
Yes, yes, people are very positive. But as in everything,
there's always a few characters who always find a way
because you find it's something that they've been doing for
generations and generations. To them, it's just a way of life,
approaching illegal fishing and you know, illegal timber harvesting. So
(14:51):
there's still a few, you know, characters who haven't it
hasn't really gotten into their heads. But for the most part,
the communities are very receptive and very supportive of what
we do over here.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I want to back up a minute. There's the thing
I failed to ask you about you just brought up.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
There's a big fishing component here, yes, because you're on
a very large lake, there's a river system, and there
is legal fishing. Yes there is, okay, but you're still
patrol and you guys patrol and regulate the fishing. And
where I live, it would be that we have game
wardens hired by the different states, and the game wardens
patrol the waterways and it's checking licenses, checking what equipment
(15:35):
you use, checking that you have fish you're allowed to have.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
You don't have too many, right, Yes, they're just doing
that work all the time, and they interact with fishermen. Yes,
and that's sounds very.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
Similar basically the same thing. We Also what we do
is we facilitate the government game offices so that we
go with them and also you find that we have
we have more of a feel of the area. You know,
the game scouts come and go, they get changed, so
(16:07):
we have our teams with them even on the water
and they check you have to have a valid license,
and we have to check the type of fish you caught.
There's also the size of the net that you have
so that you don't catch the small fish. So we
it's almost the same thing as you described. We we
we have to do that on the lake and also
on the river. And also even by doing that, it's
(16:31):
also because poaching if it can't come in, and if
they can't come in on land, then they'll they'll come
in through the water. So by having patrols, then we
have a way of controlling the guys who would come
and poach and then put it on a boat and
go and go out.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
So it helps.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yes, Is there anything I missed that you feel like
you should tell me about?
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Well, not really, Moan.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Let's talk like Morgan Potter's not here. Okay, Morgan Potter
tells us all about we got a little worked up
about black mamas just from hearing the bottom, reading the bottom,
He's like, you'll never see one, okay, right away, there's
a damn black mama right in uddle of the road.
How many black Like, how many black mambas per day
(17:23):
are you running into.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
In a normal day? Went running into one? Okay?
Speaker 1 (17:28):
How many per week?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
Per week? Okay?
Speaker 3 (17:30):
Like for the week, I've had running into two and
uh and one of them really chased us.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
You know, it's a.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
It's a so I didn't know, but I had heard
of black mamas. I knew they were bad or like
I knew there was like a snake to be wrackinged with. Yes,
they run their neck up like lockness monster. Oh yeah,
they stunned with the crews around with their head like
up here. Yeah, they could stand on their tail like
(18:03):
literally they're like an attack. Oh yeah, it is. It's
quite aggressive, very territorial.
Speaker 3 (18:08):
Chases people around, chases people can't even chase the car.
Speaker 2 (18:11):
It can't even Yeah, it can go up to you.
Speaker 1 (18:14):
You'll never see one. Yeah, here's the funniest part about
the funniest part about we see a black mom. But yeah, he,
like the black mom like honestly considers attacking our car. Yeah,
he like runs through his mind. He false charges the
car and then goes off. And then we like drive
off and we don't go a mile and someone looks
out the side of the road there's another one and
(18:35):
Morgan's like, no, that's a that's a cobra.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Cobra.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Yeah, yeah, I think if you, if you, if you
had to choose, you're better off meeting a cobra than
than than a black mom.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
But it's it's it's really it's we call it over here.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Sudden death, you know, yeah, sudden death. But you have
traditional helas. We'll say they can fix you up, fix
you up, but you're never sure up about it.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
Inter snake we saw it was seem very benign. I mean,
I know they're not, but he seemed very like just
a chill snake because we saw a puff adder.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Oh yeah, he's very chill. You know.
Speaker 3 (19:08):
He can you can want trouble. Yeah, you can even
step on him and he won't do anything to you.
But a black mamba, you startled it or you're just
like in its surroundings and like it's coming back.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
To its whole. Like bug here, it would really chase
us away. Here.
Speaker 1 (19:26):
This one was going down the road and we pulled
up on it, and he turns and comes back towards Yes,
the truck.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
It's not scared of anything. Yeah, that's the truth.
Speaker 1 (19:38):
About respect for him. Yeah, but then you've been in
this business twelve years. Yeah, you do mega patrols out here,
you do long patrols out here. You've never been struck
by one.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Well, I wouldn't be here if I was so.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Yeah, that's proof I've never been struck by one.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
We've we've had close clothes earlier. This.
Speaker 3 (20:01):
Yeah, uh, some of our guys were chasing a poacher
and as soon as they got close to him, he
he did. He turned around and was going towards the
vehicle on it on his own. It's because he had
seen a black number. So when the guys got there,
it stood up, and so they also started running back.
And it's very rare for it to happen. But as
(20:24):
soon as they get to the to the pickup, they
found that there was another one close by, so it
also stood up. So it was a bit of a
crazy day. Luckily no one was bitten.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
We have a we have a similar animal in the
northern We have a mountain range called the Rocky Mountains,
and in the northern end of the Rocky Mountains we
have a bear called a grizzy berry.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yes. Uh.
Speaker 1 (20:47):
People that live around there are generally very relaxed, so like, sure,
you see him, it doesn't mean it's going to kill you. Yeah,
you just get used to it. And then people come
from far away and they go there and all they
talk about is grizzly bears, and then people that live
there get annoyed with them for talking about grizzly bears.
All the time. Were those guys, were those guys about
(21:09):
black mams?
Speaker 3 (21:10):
Oh yeah, but but even the you know, the people
around here who live around here, that's really one one
snake that they're really scared of.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
That's the truth. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (21:22):
So you can find a few brave people who are
ready to confront it, but most would rather just go
the other way. Yeah, it's it's really scary. Yeah, that's
the truth. We U There's a guy, a honey guy
that was beaten two weeks ago because sometimes they go
and stay inside a beehive. So while he was opening
(21:44):
it up, it struck him and.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
He how ells, he get into the beehive, it.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Goes up, climbs up the tree because the behave is
on top of and goes inside there. It seems the
bees no, don't mind him, but don't mind it. So
he opened it up up and it struck him and
three hours later he was he was dead. Yeah, and
and for me three hours, I'm like, oh, okay, it
took a while because it's usually thirty to forty forty
(22:11):
five minutes, I know, but yeah, I was also surprised
that three hours Okay, yeah, but yeah, so it's it's
a very dangerous snake. They are not so many. They
are very rare, and they only come out early in
the morning during the day and later in the evening
they go back.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
Yes, yeah, right, well, thanks for the thanks for the conversation.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Okay, thank you, thank you for.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Your efforts on behalf Wildlife. Yeah, thanks for your efforts
at making us see more chill about black moms. I'm
actually pretty chill about black Yeah. I know, I like,
I don't, I have no problem. Yeah, it's skinning. Yeahs
Kanny Seth run around.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
It's real, baby, I'm sure it's it's a real adrenaline
adrenaline russion.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
It's good for that, good for that. It's like bungee jumping.
Host
Steven Rinella
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