August 21, 2025 • 20 mins
Steven Rinella talks with Vance of Blackrock Aviation in Alaska.
Topics discussed: The risks a pilot takes; getting a feeling; visibility and wind; reading the water; the fantasy that you automatically know how to fly a plane; rinsing the plane every day; and more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Everybody, welcome to uh this that we're gonna call this
an Alaska wop. This is a FWOP episode many we
recorded it comes right out and we're in Alaska, so
it's an Alaska fop. And I'm here with my friend
and I like to think of him as my personal pilot.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Vance.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Here's a Robertus Roberts. Robert's okay, we always call you Roberts.
I knew Vance is. Vance is a floatplane pilot. This
is his floatplane right here. This is personal plane. You'd
call him like a You're a bush pilot. Yeah, like
Alaska bush pilot flies on floats. I knew Vance prior
(01:12):
when he was flying down here in southeast Alaska for
an aviation outfit. He left the aviation outfit started his
own aviation outfit called black Rock Aviation. And he's a
one man, one plane show right right. You've been flying
for how many years floatplanes?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Twenty three years?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
How long flying in general? Thirty born in Nebraska.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Colorado, Colorado, lived in Nebraska for a while.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Okay, yea born in Colorado, lived in Nebraska, came in Alaska.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
What age?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
That's probably about thirty five thirty six? One?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Had you always known you want to fly.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Yeah, yeah, it just kind of grew up out in
rural areas and like the just watching crop testers and stuff, and.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Oh that's how you got it.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So at what point if you want to be a
pilot and you want to and you want to you know,
any love remote areas and you like to hunt, you
like to fish, at what point in your life, at
what age did you be like, man, if you're going
to do it doing Alaska?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
What drew you to that part of it?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
I worked for for the airlines is an aircraft mechanic
for several years before I finished.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
All my ratings the big airlines.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, I worked for Content Airlines way back when and.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Wrenching on airplanes.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Yeah, I worked for Boeing.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Anyway, I saw those guys that you know dragging the
black suitcases around and none of them are smiling.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Yeah, so it's.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Like living out of a suitcase. And the ones I
knew were all divorced. They're different, you know, going through
a divorce.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So I drinking in hotel bars every night.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Oh yeah, I don't think I want to do that route,
but I want to fly. And then had my private life.
I actually I had been commercial rating, and then I
went and uh went and got a floatplane add on,
and I'm like, Okay, that's it, that's what I want
to do. I want to fly floats. Yeah, I kind
of knew I wanted to do that, But getting in
the door somewhere to do it, it's the tough part
(03:09):
getting what do you mean getting getting the hours before
someone will even put you in in the seat.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Or you mean, like to hire you. You gotta have
hours commercial hours.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
You gotta have float time, you gotta have Alaska time.
You gotta have got it. You know all this. Everyone
has all the requirements.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
But gotcha. So it takes a while to get You
need to have the job.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
To get the job right, you got to start somewhere else,
usually in Alaska, like flying wheels or something.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I see.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
I flew out of Bethel, fair Banks for a year
and then racked up a bunch of hours up there,
and then I got back down here as a to
fly floats.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And this is like, this is like the world's capital
floatplane activity Southeast Alaska.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I don't know if it is anymore. It used to be.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Uh Lake could's pretty busy with floatplanes two up and
anchorage and stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Okay, got it.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Yeah, there's not as much industry as there used to
be here as far as like commercial industry. There's a
there's a tourism, but there used to be a lot
of logging camps and stuff. And I kept floatplanes are
really busy almost year.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Round, got it.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
So as as that industry is dried up, that's affected
how many floatplane operators are working and how many hours
you can get.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
I would say, so, yeah, you guys aren't find as
many hours as they used to. Yeah, unless you're hauling,
unless you have the mail contracts or something like that.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And a ton of guys, like in, a ton of
guys in your occupation do flight seeing, right, but you
tend to do you do some of that when you do,
but you tend to work for outfitters, you fly guys
like us, right, Yeah, you don't do as many flight
seeing tours as you do.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Kind of like working working operations.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Right, I'll do yeah, fishing lodges and and you know
people's cabins like you remote remote stuff yea, hunters, yeah,
stuff like that. But yeah, everyone has to do tours too,
just fill in the gaps and make some extra extra
money for the air you know, So.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
How do you here's the thing that often comes up
and you guys get sick of asking about it.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
How do you, like, how.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Do you in your mind, how do you quantify the
risk of being a floatplane pilot in Alaska? And just
to just real quick, like, you guys are flying by
You're not instrument flying, no, you're flying by what you
can see.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Visual flight rules.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
So like, how because it's the anytime I'll talk to
people and be like, oh, yeah, we have a cab
and we go out to our cabin, we charter a plane,
and people always comment on like what is the risk?
How do you picture like, how do you deal with
or imagine the risk of being a pilot? Like you
have to know, I'm sure you do. You have to
know in your career a lot of pilots who've had REX.
(05:52):
Some some survived had REX, and some died. How do
you begin to think about it.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
If you're not thinking about it about the risk. If
you're not, if you don't have a little bit of
a you know, if something doesn't scare you anymore, huh,
I mean even just a little bit, then you're probably
not you know, if you're too numb to it, then
you probably shouldn't be doing it, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Oh you think so, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Mean there's there's risk out here, you know.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
I mean, but but dude, do you ever feel like
as a pilot do you ever you don't feel afraid
because you like you're making like you're always making your
calculation like you're the final say, but yeah, like we
go where we don't go right right?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Yeah, but there's still always that you know that, Yeah,
that gut feelings like yeah, nope, not going to do that.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
You gotta you gotta listen to that.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Do you get you get like a do you get
like a feeling?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Oh yeah you do.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Yeah, you don't want to be flying and and uh.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
And have that.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
But you get into situations where it's a little windy here,
a little gusty there, and it's like, yep, I'm not
landing there, you know, no good?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
So what is it? What is the biggest enemy? Is it?
Is it visibility or wind?
Speaker 3 (07:09):
It's usually a combination.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Yeah, it's usually like it's usually just like wind, sheer,
gusts and visibility. Yeah, yeah, a lot of times it's
a combination. Here in Southeast you get all of it
at one time. You get love visibility with gusty winds
and and just yeah, it's all.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
It's all. It could be a combination of it.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
It could be I don't know, but the winds are
it could be pretty bad sometimes here, you know, get
in the seventies and stuff. But yeah, you're not flying
during that stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Seventy miles an hour.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Oh yeah, winter time, but yeah, we don't fly in that.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
There's this idea and I always tell people just don't
even know if it's actually true. Is it like when
you're in an area that's all water and you're on floats.
Isn't it some solid that you can always there's always
a place to land or is it not that simple?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Depends on the water. Yeah, the middle of strates when.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It's eight footers what happens?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Then you might get it down, but it ain't gonna
be soft anyway soft and it may not stay together
on you.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
I see, it may bust the part on you.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So what is the best?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Uh, how how do you describe like what kind of
seas can you land in? Or what kind of seas
has becomeing inadvisable?
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Well, I mean you can land in two footers pretty
easy and in this thing, but you start getting bigger
than that, it starts it's pretty rough landing.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So like six foot is no good?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
No, yeah, no good.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, because yeah, there's nothing smooth to hit.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
No, you're gonna you're gonna hit one wave and go
into the next one.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, the uh there's the thing that I iced to
think it wasn't true, But it's gotta be true. Okay,
we talked about rough weather, rough water. Let's talk about
calm water.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Is it true that you.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Can have a body of water be so still that
you need to create chop Yeah, so that when you
start going, the float's got something to bounce on or else,
like the surface tension of the water holds the plane in.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, it's almost like a suction. Yeah, it'll it'll keep
you down on the water. You gotta have some ripples
sometimes like small lake or something that's just flat, calm,
and you need the whole.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Lake to get off.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
You'll cut circles, you do a circle or two, make
some ripples, and then once you hit those, boom you'll
pop off the water.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, because it'll actually like skip you up a little bit.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah, it'll break that tension. Yeah, you can lift one
float at a time too. It's called glassy water. Yeah,
it's it's a thing.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, when you're like in your area, there's lakes you'll
land on. But let's say you were in an area
and you only had to like you're in an area
and your area you've never been. We're just whatever reason
and you're determining can I land in a lake or not?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
What are you looking for?
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Well, you look for the size for one A lot
of times. I want to look at maps and you know,
try to get some measurements because.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
You need how many yards of water?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Probably nine hundred is nice to have nine hundred yards
a lot, Yeah, I mean especially for a lake you
haven't been into. Right, So then you're also looking for
the approach and departure if there's is there, is there terrain?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Is there trees? Is it?
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Can you come and flat over the out of the
creek that it's draining out of it or whatever?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Is there a is it one way in? One way out?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Ye?
Speaker 4 (10:44):
Can you do a step turn in? There is white
enough for that? There's quite a few variables.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, And then you got to think, like you always
have to come into the wind.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Not always if you can land down end, but it's
going to increase your your your ground run when you
touch down.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Can you take off with the wind or with the tailwind?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah you can't.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Yeah, I mean for you know, experienced pilots, you can
do it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
You don't want to do that if you just start
out on floats, but yeah, yeah, you always want to
take off into the wind.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
It's preferred.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Well, sometimes when you come in here, you circle.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, what are you doing looking for debris?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Oh, that's what you're you're scouting for debris.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I always picture up there are calculating wind directions.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
You're just looking Is it clear?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Got it? Got it? Got it?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:30):
That in also the wind. But I can usually tell
the wind before I get here. I've been in here
so much. But yeah, you can usually tell the wind
from a distance after you've been flying for a while.
But that's the biggest thing that floats is breathing the
water and knowing where the wind's coming from, what it's doing.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So what's the uh, what's the worst thing clients can
do when you charge a flight, Like, what's the most
annoying thing passengers do?
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Put a camera right in my face.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, next to that, I don't think that's that's you know,
I understand your policy. Once once a guy not an
interview person, but once a camera guy points a camera you,
he's done right, he's too a new air carrier.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Well, no, if it's not necessarily that, it's like if
they have to, if they ask first, and like, you know,
I'm gonna can I film you?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
That's fine.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
But when I started a takeoff roll and they stick
a camera in my face like.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
That, I haven't done that.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
It's gonna be like, you know, I need to see
where I'm going. You're instructing my view for one.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You know, you know all of the funniest things I've
seen you do funny to me.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
We're taking off out of your out of your shop,
your hanger, and we're like coming out of your hangar,
coming out into the I mean, just for people, listen
where Vance's hanger is. When he comes out of there,
there's like commercial airline traffic. I mean different, but I
mean it's like it's a busy airspace.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
There's other floatplanes. Was a airport my neighbor.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I have my neighbor with me, and it was like
you were coming out because you're flying like you just
gotta see what's going on.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I remember you're reaching forward, reaching and grabbing my neighbor.
He was leaning forward to look at something. I remember
you doing this because you needed to check for traffic. Yeah,
in the car, you know, you're like, I need to
look on that. What's going on for a pull out?
Speaker 1 (13:20):
So that and then what kind of was the dumbest
question you've forgotten about from when you're flying with somebody?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Jeez, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
There's lots of them, too many of a name.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Too many of a name. Like people that are off
ship still ask what's that? What's that? What's the elevation?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You know at the ocean?
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Yeah, they got off a cruise ship and get on
your float plane on the same body of water.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
And the last what the elevation is on this lake
here on the ocean? Still right there?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
A zero zero, I tell him.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Like four ft sitting off the water.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, here's here's what's my last question for you? Because
this is a fantasy I have. Well, first I'll set
it up with a story.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I was just in.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Africa with my family and we were flying in small aircraft.
We were flying in caravans, yeah, a lot of caravans are.
So my boy, my older boy, fifteen year old, he
sitting up front, right, Okay, he fancies himself that just
by observing a.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Pilot, he's got it.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So we get on another plane and my little boy
who's ten, gets invited to ride up front. And my
older boy then, who's miffed because he likes to be
up front, right, he says, well, a lot of good
it's going to do us having him up front.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
If something were to happen to the pilot.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Is your older boy thinks he can fly.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Because he's after observing He's like, I'm cool. Like if
this guy has a heart attack, I'm cool.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
What A like when I sit there and always thinking, like,
let's say I don't know, advance has a massive heart
attack and dies. You know what am I gonna do?
Is it like like people have this fantasy. I don't
know if you know this, but people have this fantasy.
We joke about it. Is anyone ever that's never flown
(15:12):
gonna like get the hang of it in time to
figure it out?
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I don't know. It depends on the person. I think,
you know, I mean like if they're.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
You know, if they've grown up operating things like boats
and cars, and you know they're mechanically, you know they
might Well.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
He might be up there and fiddle around enough to
get where you can at least yeah, survive the landing.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yeah possibly.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, you hear that stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, you don't ask somebody.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
He's always doing up here, now, I understand that.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Yeah, you wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I got this little vance has this little thing he
likes to fiddle with right here.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I didn't think it did anything, but it does. It's
has something.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
It's a trim.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I just thought he likes doing it because it never
feels like anything.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
When because I'm holding pressure on the yolk and you
know you don't feel that, I feel it, and then
I take the pressure off with this and I can
release it.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah sure, yeah, So.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
What's the old pilot? When are you too old to fly?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Seventy sixty sixty joking, I'm almost sixteen right now.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
I think it's as long as you're you feel healthy
enough to do it, you know, I think you know
the airlines. I think the cutoff is sixty five.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
I think, okay, but you can do this later.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I could do it.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, you can be licensed to keep flying.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah, in my seventies eighties, probably if I wanted to,
But yeah, I don't think I want to go that long.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
So do you like the stress of being your own guy,
your own plane, your own guy, handling your own business.
Do you prefer that stress over the stress of being
in charge of a big operation with tons of planes
and tons of pilots. It's probably different stresses, but both stressful.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
I prefer this, really.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
It more peaceful being a loan operator.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Yeah, I mean, you're working hard, but it's like you're
doing it for yourself though, you know what I mean,
just like any self employed person. Right, it's a little
more satisfaction in your job, you know, because it's you know,
you're not doing it for him or them, You're doing
it for you.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
But man, you got when it's busy time of year, Man,
you got long days. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Just for instance, I knew you had all I knew
all kinds of junk you do every night. I had
no idea that every night you got to wash the plane.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
To get the salt water.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Right, I have help, I do have you do have
help with that? Okay? Yeah, honest helping me the summer.
She's great.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's a it's a job, man.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
It's like, you know, we don't subscrub it every night.
We at least rents it off so you get the
salt off of it.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, it's but more, I guess, my point rather than
just just simply washing.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
My point is it's not like when you're done, you
like park and walk away. Right, there's a lot, right.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And then every blank hours you got to do this,
and every blank hours you got to do that.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
That's any But it's you know, it's it's it's it's
a short season. You know, it's pretty hectic. But yeah,
in another two months will be you know.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, you've got time to take care of So yeah,
well so tell people, So you fly anything within how
many miles of catch can what's the farthest you roam.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
The longest charter I've done it is probably up to
juno Yeah ok, yeah, all right, two and a half hours.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
So now I know people. I know people that are
pilots who say that they like to fly with you
because you're such an exceptional pilot.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Oh oh thanks, whoever they are?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Cap Mac? Oh yeah, Cap Mac is a pilot. Yeah,
and he's like, that's my pilot. He likes you.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So black Rock Aviation, that's a little bit a glimpse
of the life of of a floatplane pilot.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
A lot of people have dreams are coming out and
being pilots. Yeah, I I I don't.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
I had it, and I just realized that it's probably better.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It's the charter of a plane.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
You know. I used to think like, I'm gonna get
my own plane, and now I'm like, no, you're not
comment Yeah, commitment.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
If you gonna do that.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
So black Rock Aviation out to catch Kaine, Alaska. Dvance
Robert Robert, I'll never remember that, dude. Advance robertus uh
soul proprietor pilot UH private, owns his own plane, flies
around mechanic mechanic too, flies around beautiful Alaska, getting everybody
(19:37):
to their fishing spots on time.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
So what we try to do.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Thanks thanks for doing the interview, man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
My problem.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Thank you everybody
Everybody, welcome to uh this that we're gonna call this
an Alaska wop. This is a FWOP episode many we
recorded it comes right out and we're in Alaska, so
it's an Alaska fop. And I'm here with my friend
and I like to think of him as my personal pilot.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Vance.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Here's a Robertus Roberts. Robert's okay, we always call you Roberts.
I knew Vance is. Vance is a floatplane pilot. This
is his floatplane right here. This is personal plane. You'd
call him like a You're a bush pilot. Yeah, like
Alaska bush pilot flies on floats. I knew Vance prior
(01:12):
when he was flying down here in southeast Alaska for
an aviation outfit. He left the aviation outfit started his
own aviation outfit called black Rock Aviation. And he's a
one man, one plane show right right. You've been flying
for how many years floatplanes?
Speaker 3 (01:31):
Twenty three years?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
How long flying in general? Thirty born in Nebraska.
Speaker 3 (01:37):
Colorado, Colorado, lived in Nebraska for a while.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Okay, yea born in Colorado, lived in Nebraska, came in Alaska.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
What age?
Speaker 3 (01:46):
That's probably about thirty five thirty six? One?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Had you always known you want to fly.
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Yeah, yeah, it just kind of grew up out in
rural areas and like the just watching crop testers and stuff, and.
Speaker 2 (01:59):
Oh that's how you got it.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
So at what point if you want to be a
pilot and you want to and you want to you know,
any love remote areas and you like to hunt, you
like to fish, at what point in your life, at
what age did you be like, man, if you're going
to do it doing Alaska?
Speaker 2 (02:16):
What drew you to that part of it?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
I worked for for the airlines is an aircraft mechanic
for several years before I finished.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
All my ratings the big airlines.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
Yeah, I worked for Content Airlines way back when and.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Wrenching on airplanes.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Yeah, I worked for Boeing.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Anyway, I saw those guys that you know dragging the
black suitcases around and none of them are smiling.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
Yeah, so it's.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
Like living out of a suitcase. And the ones I
knew were all divorced. They're different, you know, going through
a divorce.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
So I drinking in hotel bars every night.
Speaker 4 (02:48):
Oh yeah, I don't think I want to do that route,
but I want to fly. And then had my private life.
I actually I had been commercial rating, and then I
went and uh went and got a floatplane add on,
and I'm like, Okay, that's it, that's what I want
to do. I want to fly floats. Yeah, I kind
of knew I wanted to do that, But getting in
the door somewhere to do it, it's the tough part
(03:09):
getting what do you mean getting getting the hours before
someone will even put you in in the seat.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Or you mean, like to hire you. You gotta have
hours commercial hours.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
You gotta have float time, you gotta have Alaska time.
You gotta have got it. You know all this. Everyone
has all the requirements.
Speaker 2 (03:25):
But gotcha. So it takes a while to get You
need to have the job.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
To get the job right, you got to start somewhere else,
usually in Alaska, like flying wheels or something.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
I see.
Speaker 4 (03:34):
I flew out of Bethel, fair Banks for a year
and then racked up a bunch of hours up there,
and then I got back down here as a to
fly floats.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
And this is like, this is like the world's capital
floatplane activity Southeast Alaska.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
I don't know if it is anymore. It used to be.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Uh Lake could's pretty busy with floatplanes two up and
anchorage and stuff.
Speaker 2 (03:56):
Okay, got it.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
Yeah, there's not as much industry as there used to
be here as far as like commercial industry. There's a
there's a tourism, but there used to be a lot
of logging camps and stuff. And I kept floatplanes are
really busy almost year.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Round, got it.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
So as as that industry is dried up, that's affected
how many floatplane operators are working and how many hours
you can get.
Speaker 4 (04:19):
I would say, so, yeah, you guys aren't find as
many hours as they used to. Yeah, unless you're hauling,
unless you have the mail contracts or something like that.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
And a ton of guys, like in, a ton of
guys in your occupation do flight seeing, right, but you
tend to do you do some of that when you do,
but you tend to work for outfitters, you fly guys
like us, right, Yeah, you don't do as many flight
seeing tours as you do.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Kind of like working working operations.
Speaker 4 (04:46):
Right, I'll do yeah, fishing lodges and and you know
people's cabins like you remote remote stuff yea, hunters, yeah,
stuff like that. But yeah, everyone has to do tours too,
just fill in the gaps and make some extra extra
money for the air you know, So.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
How do you here's the thing that often comes up
and you guys get sick of asking about it.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
How do you, like, how.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
Do you in your mind, how do you quantify the
risk of being a floatplane pilot in Alaska? And just
to just real quick, like, you guys are flying by
You're not instrument flying, no, you're flying by what you
can see.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Visual flight rules.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
So like, how because it's the anytime I'll talk to
people and be like, oh, yeah, we have a cab
and we go out to our cabin, we charter a plane,
and people always comment on like what is the risk?
How do you picture like, how do you deal with
or imagine the risk of being a pilot? Like you
have to know, I'm sure you do. You have to
know in your career a lot of pilots who've had REX.
(05:52):
Some some survived had REX, and some died. How do
you begin to think about it.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
If you're not thinking about it about the risk. If
you're not, if you don't have a little bit of
a you know, if something doesn't scare you anymore, huh,
I mean even just a little bit, then you're probably
not you know, if you're too numb to it, then
you probably shouldn't be doing it, you know.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
Oh you think so, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
Mean there's there's risk out here, you know.
Speaker 5 (06:23):
I mean, but but dude, do you ever feel like
as a pilot do you ever you don't feel afraid
because you like you're making like you're always making your
calculation like you're the final say, but yeah, like we
go where we don't go right right?
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Yeah, but there's still always that you know that, Yeah,
that gut feelings like yeah, nope, not going to do that.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
You gotta you gotta listen to that.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Do you get you get like a do you get
like a feeling?
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Oh yeah you do.
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Yeah, you don't want to be flying and and uh.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
And have that.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
But you get into situations where it's a little windy here,
a little gusty there, and it's like, yep, I'm not
landing there, you know, no good?
Speaker 2 (07:02):
So what is it? What is the biggest enemy? Is it?
Is it visibility or wind?
Speaker 3 (07:09):
It's usually a combination.
Speaker 4 (07:10):
Yeah, it's usually like it's usually just like wind, sheer,
gusts and visibility. Yeah, yeah, a lot of times it's
a combination. Here in Southeast you get all of it
at one time. You get love visibility with gusty winds
and and just yeah, it's all.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
It's all. It could be a combination of it.
Speaker 4 (07:34):
It could be I don't know, but the winds are
it could be pretty bad sometimes here, you know, get
in the seventies and stuff. But yeah, you're not flying
during that stuff.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Seventy miles an hour.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Oh yeah, winter time, but yeah, we don't fly in that.
Speaker 1 (07:52):
There's this idea and I always tell people just don't
even know if it's actually true. Is it like when
you're in an area that's all water and you're on floats.
Isn't it some solid that you can always there's always
a place to land or is it not that simple?
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Depends on the water. Yeah, the middle of strates when.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
It's eight footers what happens?
Speaker 4 (08:10):
Then you might get it down, but it ain't gonna
be soft anyway soft and it may not stay together
on you.
Speaker 3 (08:17):
I see, it may bust the part on you.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
So what is the best?
Speaker 1 (08:20):
Uh, how how do you describe like what kind of
seas can you land in? Or what kind of seas
has becomeing inadvisable?
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Well, I mean you can land in two footers pretty
easy and in this thing, but you start getting bigger
than that, it starts it's pretty rough landing.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
So like six foot is no good?
Speaker 3 (08:39):
No, yeah, no good.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Yeah, because yeah, there's nothing smooth to hit.
Speaker 4 (08:44):
No, you're gonna you're gonna hit one wave and go
into the next one.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
Got it.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Yeah, the uh there's the thing that I iced to
think it wasn't true, But it's gotta be true. Okay,
we talked about rough weather, rough water. Let's talk about
calm water.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Is it true that you.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Can have a body of water be so still that
you need to create chop Yeah, so that when you
start going, the float's got something to bounce on or else,
like the surface tension of the water holds the plane in.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, it's almost like a suction. Yeah, it'll it'll keep
you down on the water. You gotta have some ripples
sometimes like small lake or something that's just flat, calm,
and you need the whole.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Lake to get off.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
You'll cut circles, you do a circle or two, make
some ripples, and then once you hit those, boom you'll
pop off the water.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
Yeah, because it'll actually like skip you up a little bit.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Yeah, it'll break that tension. Yeah, you can lift one
float at a time too. It's called glassy water. Yeah,
it's it's a thing.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, when you're like in your area, there's lakes you'll
land on. But let's say you were in an area
and you only had to like you're in an area
and your area you've never been. We're just whatever reason
and you're determining can I land in a lake or not?
Speaker 2 (10:05):
What are you looking for?
Speaker 4 (10:08):
Well, you look for the size for one A lot
of times. I want to look at maps and you know,
try to get some measurements because.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
You need how many yards of water?
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Oh?
Speaker 4 (10:19):
Probably nine hundred is nice to have nine hundred yards
a lot, Yeah, I mean especially for a lake you
haven't been into. Right, So then you're also looking for
the approach and departure if there's is there, is there terrain?
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Is there trees? Is it?
Speaker 4 (10:36):
Can you come and flat over the out of the
creek that it's draining out of it or whatever?
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Is there a is it one way in? One way out?
Speaker 2 (10:43):
Ye?
Speaker 4 (10:44):
Can you do a step turn in? There is white
enough for that? There's quite a few variables.
Speaker 1 (10:49):
Yeah, And then you got to think, like you always
have to come into the wind.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Not always if you can land down end, but it's
going to increase your your your ground run when you
touch down.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Can you take off with the wind or with the tailwind?
Speaker 2 (11:04):
Yeah you can't.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Yeah, I mean for you know, experienced pilots, you can
do it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:09):
You don't want to do that if you just start
out on floats, but yeah, yeah, you always want to
take off into the wind.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
It's preferred.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
Well, sometimes when you come in here, you circle.
Speaker 3 (11:17):
Yeah, what are you doing looking for debris?
Speaker 2 (11:20):
Oh, that's what you're you're scouting for debris.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
I always picture up there are calculating wind directions.
Speaker 2 (11:24):
You're just looking Is it clear?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (11:27):
Got it? Got it? Got it?
Speaker 3 (11:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (11:30):
That in also the wind. But I can usually tell
the wind before I get here. I've been in here
so much. But yeah, you can usually tell the wind
from a distance after you've been flying for a while.
But that's the biggest thing that floats is breathing the
water and knowing where the wind's coming from, what it's doing.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
So what's the uh, what's the worst thing clients can
do when you charge a flight, Like, what's the most
annoying thing passengers do?
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Put a camera right in my face.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
Yeah, next to that, I don't think that's that's you know,
I understand your policy. Once once a guy not an
interview person, but once a camera guy points a camera you,
he's done right, he's too a new air carrier.
Speaker 4 (12:12):
Well, no, if it's not necessarily that, it's like if
they have to, if they ask first, and like, you know,
I'm gonna can I film you?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
That's fine.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
But when I started a takeoff roll and they stick
a camera in my face like.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
That, I haven't done that.
Speaker 4 (12:27):
It's gonna be like, you know, I need to see
where I'm going. You're instructing my view for one.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
You know, you know all of the funniest things I've
seen you do funny to me.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
We're taking off out of your out of your shop,
your hanger, and we're like coming out of your hangar,
coming out into the I mean, just for people, listen
where Vance's hanger is. When he comes out of there,
there's like commercial airline traffic. I mean different, but I
mean it's like it's a busy airspace.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
There's other floatplanes. Was a airport my neighbor.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
I have my neighbor with me, and it was like
you were coming out because you're flying like you just
gotta see what's going on.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
I remember you're reaching forward, reaching and grabbing my neighbor.
He was leaning forward to look at something. I remember
you doing this because you needed to check for traffic. Yeah,
in the car, you know, you're like, I need to
look on that. What's going on for a pull out?
Speaker 1 (13:20):
So that and then what kind of was the dumbest
question you've forgotten about from when you're flying with somebody?
Speaker 3 (13:26):
Jeez, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
There's lots of them, too many of a name.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
Too many of a name. Like people that are off
ship still ask what's that? What's that? What's the elevation?
Speaker 2 (13:37):
You know at the ocean?
Speaker 4 (13:39):
Yeah, they got off a cruise ship and get on
your float plane on the same body of water.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
And the last what the elevation is on this lake
here on the ocean? Still right there?
Speaker 2 (13:50):
A zero zero, I tell him.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Like four ft sitting off the water.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
Yeah, here's here's what's my last question for you? Because
this is a fantasy I have. Well, first I'll set
it up with a story.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
I was just in.
Speaker 1 (14:05):
Africa with my family and we were flying in small aircraft.
We were flying in caravans, yeah, a lot of caravans are.
So my boy, my older boy, fifteen year old, he
sitting up front, right, Okay, he fancies himself that just
by observing a.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Pilot, he's got it.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:24):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
So we get on another plane and my little boy
who's ten, gets invited to ride up front. And my
older boy then, who's miffed because he likes to be
up front, right, he says, well, a lot of good
it's going to do us having him up front.
Speaker 2 (14:41):
If something were to happen to the pilot.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Is your older boy thinks he can fly.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Because he's after observing He's like, I'm cool. Like if
this guy has a heart attack, I'm cool.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
What A like when I sit there and always thinking, like,
let's say I don't know, advance has a massive heart
attack and dies. You know what am I gonna do?
Is it like like people have this fantasy. I don't
know if you know this, but people have this fantasy.
We joke about it. Is anyone ever that's never flown
(15:12):
gonna like get the hang of it in time to
figure it out?
Speaker 3 (15:16):
I don't know. It depends on the person. I think,
you know, I mean like if they're.
Speaker 4 (15:21):
You know, if they've grown up operating things like boats
and cars, and you know they're mechanically, you know they
might Well.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
He might be up there and fiddle around enough to
get where you can at least yeah, survive the landing.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
Yeah possibly.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Yeah, you hear that stuff.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
Yeah, you don't ask somebody.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
He's always doing up here, now, I understand that.
Speaker 3 (15:46):
Yeah, you wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
I got this little vance has this little thing he
likes to fiddle with right here.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
I didn't think it did anything, but it does. It's
has something.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
It's a trim.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
I just thought he likes doing it because it never
feels like anything.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
When because I'm holding pressure on the yolk and you
know you don't feel that, I feel it, and then
I take the pressure off with this and I can
release it.
Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah sure, yeah, So.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
What's the old pilot? When are you too old to fly?
Speaker 3 (16:16):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (16:17):
Seventy sixty sixty joking, I'm almost sixteen right now.
Speaker 3 (16:22):
No, I don't know.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
I think it's as long as you're you feel healthy
enough to do it, you know, I think you know
the airlines. I think the cutoff is sixty five.
Speaker 2 (16:31):
I think, okay, but you can do this later.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I could do it.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
Yeah, you can be licensed to keep flying.
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah, in my seventies eighties, probably if I wanted to,
But yeah, I don't think I want to go that long.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
So do you like the stress of being your own guy,
your own plane, your own guy, handling your own business.
Do you prefer that stress over the stress of being
in charge of a big operation with tons of planes
and tons of pilots. It's probably different stresses, but both stressful.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
I prefer this, really.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
It more peaceful being a loan operator.
Speaker 4 (17:02):
Yeah, I mean, you're working hard, but it's like you're
doing it for yourself though, you know what I mean,
just like any self employed person. Right, it's a little
more satisfaction in your job, you know, because it's you know,
you're not doing it for him or them, You're doing
it for you.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
But man, you got when it's busy time of year, Man,
you got long days. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Just for instance, I knew you had all I knew
all kinds of junk you do every night. I had
no idea that every night you got to wash the plane.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
To get the salt water.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Right, I have help, I do have you do have
help with that? Okay? Yeah, honest helping me the summer.
She's great.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah, yeah, it's it's a it's a job, man.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
It's like, you know, we don't subscrub it every night.
We at least rents it off so you get the
salt off of it.
Speaker 3 (17:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:44):
Yeah, it's but more, I guess, my point rather than
just just simply washing.
Speaker 2 (17:49):
My point is it's not like when you're done, you
like park and walk away. Right, there's a lot, right.
Speaker 1 (17:55):
And then every blank hours you got to do this,
and every blank hours you got to do that.
Speaker 4 (18:00):
That's any But it's you know, it's it's it's it's
a short season. You know, it's pretty hectic. But yeah,
in another two months will be you know.
Speaker 1 (18:12):
Yeah, you've got time to take care of So yeah,
well so tell people, So you fly anything within how
many miles of catch can what's the farthest you roam.
Speaker 4 (18:21):
The longest charter I've done it is probably up to
juno Yeah ok, yeah, all right, two and a half hours.
Speaker 3 (18:27):
You know.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
So now I know people. I know people that are
pilots who say that they like to fly with you
because you're such an exceptional pilot.
Speaker 3 (18:38):
Oh oh thanks, whoever they are?
Speaker 2 (18:41):
Cap Mac? Oh yeah, Cap Mac is a pilot. Yeah,
and he's like, that's my pilot. He likes you.
Speaker 3 (18:47):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
So black Rock Aviation, that's a little bit a glimpse
of the life of of a floatplane pilot.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
A lot of people have dreams are coming out and
being pilots. Yeah, I I I don't.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
I had it, and I just realized that it's probably better.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
It's the charter of a plane.
Speaker 3 (19:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
You know. I used to think like, I'm gonna get
my own plane, and now I'm like, no, you're not
comment Yeah, commitment.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
If you gonna do that.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
So black Rock Aviation out to catch Kaine, Alaska. Dvance
Robert Robert, I'll never remember that, dude. Advance robertus uh
soul proprietor pilot UH private, owns his own plane, flies
around mechanic mechanic too, flies around beautiful Alaska, getting everybody
(19:37):
to their fishing spots on time.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
So what we try to do.
Speaker 2 (19:40):
Thanks thanks for doing the interview, man, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (19:43):
My problem.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Thank you everybody
Host
Steven Rinella
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