September 26, 2025 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we're examining America's creative spirit and asking you: why do you create? Jeremy is joined by Duncan Wardle, former Head of Innovation and Creativity for the Walt Disney Company and Natalie Nixon, President of Figure 8 Thinking. DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus calls from around the country. #art #music #writing #creation #creativity #ideas #innovation #business #creativespirit
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
the show and from you. Thanks for making a donation
at listen toothemiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our
house TJ. Tolliver and Taliver. It's our birthday.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
We are officially two years old as a weekly show.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Are we teething yet? I don't know how babies are
with that?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I think yeah, we're definitely teething by now. It is
kind of amazing, especially given the headwinds that are going
on right now. Public broadcasting lost all of it's funding
from the federal government.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
We are still here, still alive.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
We have done more than one hundred shows, plus an
additional thirty episodes of our weekly One Thing Trump Did podcast,
which looks in a non partisan way at one thing
coming out of the Trump White House each week. And
we are of course very grateful to the more than
four hundred public radio stations plus Serious XM plus our podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Listeners are amazing. Listeners really make the show.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yeah, we are the only national show that actually allows
listeners to join the conversation on your live or online
with me, and I think that's pretty awesome.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
It is pretty awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So this hour we're talking about creativity, which is deeply
interwoven into the American identity.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Of course, there's musical creativity, which.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Brought us jazz and blues and rock and roll. There's
artistic creativity from artists like Georgia O'Keefe and Jackson Pollock.
There's also the creativity of innovation in business, everything from
people who start their own small business to developing life
changing inventions like the iPhone or the airplane or the internet.
So this hour we want to get at the heart
of that topic, to explore why we create in the
(01:33):
first place and what you do to express that creativity,
especially in an age of artificial intelligence. We're going to
be taking your calls as usual at eight four four
four Middle that's eight four four four six four three
three five three, or you can write to us at
listen toothemiddle dot com. But first, last week we talked
about what's being lost in education in the digital age.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Here are some of the comments we got on our voicemail.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
Hi, this is justin calling from More. I'm a professor
here in the city and one of the things that
I've noticed that has been lost during a digital age
is the accidental learning that happens from imagination, and I
really am sad to see that with my students, but
also creeping into my own practices. I've had to combat that.
Speaker 6 (02:20):
My name is Janet. I'm calling from northern New York State.
I'm concerned that people are so tuned into the screen
that they don't understand how to look up into the
world and do something like use a hammer and a nail.
Speaker 7 (02:33):
My name is Peter Miller. I'm calling from Columbia, South Carolina.
I am a grandfather of three children. The problem with
the Internet and the accessibility of iPhones and iPads is
that the second child is bored, they immediately go to
their iPad and it fills their time. And so in
terms of what children have lost is they've lost the ability,
(02:55):
the positive ability to be bored.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
What a great point.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Thanks to everyone who wasn't bored by our show and
called in. You can hear that full show by subscribing
to The Middle Podcasts wherever you listen to podcasts. So
now to our question this hour, why do you create
and how tolliver?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
What is our number?
Speaker 4 (03:13):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four at three three
five three, or you can write to us at Listen
to the Middle dot com or comment on our YouTube.
And I want to shout out Julianne who sent in
a bunch of her crafts to our email account.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Okay, great, Yeah, joining us this hour.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Duncan Wordle, former head of innovation and creativity for the
Walt Disney Company. His book is called The Imagination Emporium. Duncan,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Thanks for having me and also joining.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Us, Natalie Nixon, president of Figure eight Thinking. Her book
is called Move, Think Rest Natalie.
Speaker 8 (03:46):
Great to have you on, awesome to be here, Thanks
for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And my book is called I don't have a book,
so not yet anyway next year. Okay, so before we
get to the phones, I really want to hear from
both of you. You've both written about what allows to
be creative. What the best conditions are, Duncan, what would
you say they are?
Speaker 9 (04:05):
Well, let me ask you both a question. Actually, Tolliver,
Jeremy and Natalie close your eyes. Okay, where are you?
Where are you and what are you doing when you
get your best ideas?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I would say probably, I like I one of my
best ideas came to me, well, rid after a bike ride,
like a long bike ride where I was not looking
on my.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Screen, hiking around La just walking around the city.
Speaker 9 (04:32):
And here in the sound Natalie.
Speaker 10 (04:34):
After a good swim or good ballroom dance class.
Speaker 9 (04:37):
Okay, so I've done this with up to twenty thousand
people in the room at the same time. And guess
how many people say the words at work? Nobody has
their best ideas? Well? Why do we never have our
best ideas when we need them? More closure eyes again?
Picture that last verbal argument you were in with somebody,
a bit of a screaming match. You're angry at them,
they're angry at you. Now you turn to walk away
from that argument. Now you're five seconds way, you're ten seconds,
(05:00):
you're no more than twenty seconds away from that argument.
And what just popped into your head total spontaneously the
second you turn to walk away from the argument? What
was it?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
I regret?
Speaker 6 (05:09):
Is that?
Speaker 9 (05:10):
Okay, nice empathetic person? What else? Come on? What just
pop right in there?
Speaker 8 (05:15):
What I should have said.
Speaker 9 (05:18):
That one perfect beautiful line? But you never did, did
you know? Because when we're in argument, our brain is
moving at one thousand miles an hour defending ourselves when
we're in the office. It's the emails, presentations, meetings, and
I hear myself say I don't have time to think.
And when you say you don't have time to think,
you run the brain state that calls beta busy beta
where the door between your conscious and subconscious brain is
(05:38):
closed and you're only working with your conscious brain. That's
thirteen percent of the capacity of your brain. Eighty seven
percent of the capacity of your brain is subconscious. Every
innovation you've ever seen, creation probably you've ever solved. So
how do we access that part of the brain on
demand and place ourselves metaphorically back in the show when
we have our best ideas by being playful just like children.
The moment I run energizers, there's sixty second exercises specifically
(06:01):
designed to make you laugh. Why Because the moment I
hear laughter, I just opened the door between your conscious
and subconscious brain.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah. Great points. Natalie. What about you?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Where where do you see the conditions for creativity coming from?
Speaker 10 (06:14):
Well, first of all, I agree with Duncan Wordo. A
lot of what he's pointing to the neuroscience about creativity
is that when we allow the default mode network of
the brain to be activated. When we tap out of
the world, that's when our juice, the juicy bits of
neurals synapses happen.
Speaker 8 (06:33):
I think it's it's part of the human birthright to
be creative.
Speaker 10 (06:35):
I don't believe that there are creative types, don't I
don't believe that only artists.
Speaker 8 (06:39):
Or designers are creative.
Speaker 10 (06:41):
And a lot of our creativity gets drummed out of
us through the educational environment. And what's happening in the
educational context is that we are getting squeezed into certain
sorts of guardrails. Now, not to say that guardrails aren't important.
I believe that creativity loves constraints. Where we have constraints
on time and and people town, that's actually when our
(07:02):
best creativity happens. But what's also happening in our educational
system is that we're sapping out curiosity and we lean
into certainty versus curiosity. We lean into what's the answer
instead of the process. So any conditions that allow us
to grapple with the gray, to grapple with limital space,
to be brave enough to say I don't know this
(07:24):
is when we're on the precipice in the verge of discovery.
It also means that sometimes we have to ask for help,
which often means we lead to better collaborations. And there's
a lot better creative output that could happen when I'm
with the three of you than if I'm just by
myself tinkering away.
Speaker 8 (07:41):
Trying to figure something out.
Speaker 10 (07:42):
So the best conditions for creativity actually, or when there
are constraints, are when we can be with people who
don't think like us, who ask different sorts of questions,
and who actually want us to ask questions, want us
to ask the obvious child face question. That's the juicy bits,
as I like to say, began to happen.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Okay, So being surrounded by people that don't think like you,
let me ask you this, dunk in. Is there something
very American about creativity because of the melting part of
people that exists here from all over the world that
can collaborate with each other, and because of the and
I say right, especially given what's happening right now relative
freedom of expression.
Speaker 9 (08:23):
Yeah, I'm going to go on two fronts. A. I
just love what Naslie just said. By the way, education
is killing the most employable skill sets the next decade.
Oh outrageous statement, or is it? I did a talk
to three thousand university students. So I brought in thirty
six year olds and set them in the middle, and
I asked, hands up, who's created me? And me?
Speaker 11 (08:39):
Me?
Speaker 9 (08:39):
Thirty little hands didn't hesitate. The other three thousand stayed down.
Why Because we go into first grades and the first
thing in our teacher tells us is don't forget to
come in between the lines. We used to play with
the box, not the toy. And then we were told,
you know, to stop asking why because there's anyone right answer.
The most employable skill sets of the next decade would
be the ones that will be the hardest to program
into AI. All of them. We're all born creative, We're
(09:01):
all born in the imagination. We used to ask why,
why and why again. We all have an amazing intuition.
We will have empathy. But these are getting squeezed out
by education sadly. But onto the other one. Diversity is innovation.
If somebody doesn't look like you, they don't think like you,
so I can prove it. I called them the ninety experts.
These are people I bring into an ideation session specifically
(09:24):
because they don't look like you or they don't know
what you're working on. What does that give them permission
to do? We give them permission to ask a silly
question or throughout the audacious idea ungoverned by your of thinking.
They won't solve the challenge for you, but they are
there to help you think differently. So, for example, I was, actually,
do you guys have pens and paper? I know nobody
ever has pens and paper? Anybody got Okay, I've got
(09:47):
So we were designing a new retail, dining, and entertainment
complex for the Hong Kong Disney resorts. In the room
that day, I had the Disney imagineers. That's what they do.
But on that particular day, I was faced with twelve
white male American architects over fifty. Yeah, that's called group think.
So inviting in as my naive expert, a young girl
from China. Why she was female, she was under twenty,
She was Chinese, but far more important, she wasn't an
(10:07):
architecture wanted engineer. She was a chef, and I knew
she would say or do something to help us think differently.
So I'm going to give you the same task I
gave the imagineers that day. I'm going to give you.
I'm going to name an object. You're going to draw it,
but you only have seven seconds. Ready, all right, here
we go. Please? Would you draw a house? Seven six,
five four three? Share your genius? Come on, people, let's
(10:33):
take a look.
Speaker 10 (10:33):
What you go?
Speaker 9 (10:34):
Cam on camera, Jeremy, come on, let's.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Take a look.
Speaker 9 (10:39):
Okay, So here's the thing. We all drew. What the
imagineers did. We drew one door, we drew two windows.
Were so instead were what shapes the roof a triangle.
That's called our river of thinking. It's the biggest barrier
to innovation is our own expertise and our own experience.
The young female Chinese chef, she drew dim sum architecture.
Never occurred to her to draw the house the way
we would on the way out the door, the Disney
(11:00):
imagine he has slept a post it note over her drawing,
but simply said, distinctly Disney authentically Chinese. Seven years later,
the strategic brand position that guided the entire design of
the Shanghai Disney result distinctly Disney authentically Chinese. So I
am meeting everybody looks like you don't.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, you want to have the diversity. Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So, and I wonder how our listeners who are on
the phone waiting how their houses look. But Tolliver, you know,
the American Psychiatric Association came out with the survey and
found that Americans who rate their mental health as very
good or excellent tend to spend more time on creative activities,
including playing music.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, I can confirm it helps mostly listen here to
jazz legend Nina Simone talking about creativity in a TV
interview in the nineteen sixties.
Speaker 12 (11:46):
An artist duty, as always I'm concerned, is to reflect
the times. I think that is true our painters, sculptors, poets, musicians.
I'm concerned to say that a choice, but I choose
to reflect the times and the situations in which I
(12:07):
find myself. That to me is my duty. So I
don't think you have a choice. How can you be
an artist and not reflect the times?
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Fun fact, my cat was just my laugh and her
name is Nina Smeal.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Oh my god, that's amazing, you.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Know, Okay, So that I will tell you that one
of my good friend's cat is named Patricia.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Our cat, So that's a good one.
Speaker 9 (12:34):
Too.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
We'll be back with your calls coming up on the Middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle,
although this hour we're not doing a very political topic,
so really.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Anybody is welcome.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
We are asking you why do you create? And how Tulliver?
What is the number to call in?
Speaker 4 (12:59):
It's eight four four Middle. That's eight four four four
six four three three five three. You can also write
to us at Listen to the Middle dot com or
on social media.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I'm joined by Duncan Wordle, former head of innovation and
creativity for the Walt Disney Company, and Natalie Nixon, president
of Figure eight. Thinking before we get to the phones, we've.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Talked about it just a little bit, but let's talk
about AI. Natalie.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Can AI be used to make us more creative or
does it keep us from using our imagination?
Speaker 10 (13:25):
It's a choice as a decision, and we have an
opportunity to really use AI to leverage what makes us
uniquely human and we've all heard references to AI as
the co pilot, AI as the co creator. AI is
only as good as the questions that the coders ask
initially right, and it's definitely only as good as the
(13:47):
questions and the imagination.
Speaker 8 (13:49):
That we allow to take over when we use AI.
Speaker 10 (13:52):
I love a great dictation app. It saves a lot
of time. What I think is really important is to
kind of reframe the way we've been thinking of AI
and technology. We have a tech crush for infatuated with
the technology, slash terrified of it. I really think we're
actually in the middle of a human revolution, not a
technology revolution.
Speaker 8 (14:11):
I think we've got it a bit flipped.
Speaker 10 (14:12):
The opportunity, if we play our cards right, is to
embrace the spaciousness the liminal space.
Speaker 8 (14:20):
That opens up to us.
Speaker 10 (14:21):
Because we can get tasks completed so much more quickly,
and because we can get answers questions excuse me answered
so much more quickly.
Speaker 8 (14:28):
There's the so what that we have to ask.
Speaker 10 (14:31):
It allows for more time for collaboration, for critical thinking,
and to understand that while most of us run the
other direction from ambiguity in liminal space, it's actually for
most of us when we reflect back in our lives
and our careers. It's when we are the precipice of
the unknown, when we have to really forge our way
(14:52):
through the gray wrestle with that ambiguity, that it requires
us to do some back pasting, rely on past experiences,
ask for help, take a courageous leap, and with each step,
venture forward into new possibilities.
Speaker 8 (15:07):
So the artificial intelligence.
Speaker 10 (15:10):
Is it's a tool, right, And I think sometimes listen,
I'm not I'm not. I don't have a dystopian view
of the technology. I don't have a utopian view of
the technology. I think that we have to be heterotope
topia a heterotopic view of the technology. Uh and and
and be consciously critical.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Of Yeah, every single phone line is full. So let
me get to a caller.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Madison is in Tampa, Florida. Madison, Why and how do
you create?
Speaker 13 (15:41):
I create to express myself and my passion. I crochet
to make something to show someone I care, or just
to make an idea become reality. I write poetry to
express my emotions, similar to singing. I paint because I
want to see these colors make a shape or a
form of something that makes me happy. Or I dropped
(16:01):
data because I want to know why something happened the
way it did.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
And do you find that you have enough time to
do it these days?
Speaker 13 (16:11):
Oh hmm, that is hard.
Speaker 14 (16:14):
It's a lot harder to manage. I've definitely had to
cut back on it. When I was not an adult
with a full time job, or even in college, I
had way more time. But I find that I have to.
Speaker 13 (16:28):
Make it otherwise I don't feel I don't want to say,
not like a person or myself, but I don't feel complete.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
That is yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
For yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 8 (16:39):
Can what's your name? Madison?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Madison?
Speaker 8 (16:42):
Yeah, Madison.
Speaker 10 (16:44):
So so thank you for sharing those really specific examples.
One of the reasons I wrote Move Think Rest is
because I realized that a lot of our our best
work has happened when we step away from the desk
and move think Rest is an opportunity to redesign time
and space so that we intentionally make time to do
all the examples when when duncan NASA's close your eyes
(17:05):
and when was the blssome you're creative? Notice that a
lot of us had activity walking movement attached to that,
you know, According to research from market Splash, ninety percent
of business leaders, we'll say that creativity is critical for
market competitive competitiveness. However, seventy five percent of employees say
they don't have enough time to express themselves creatively. So
(17:29):
there's a there's a gap analysis between us saying yes,
we need creativity for business results. There's a business roife creativity,
and yet we actually are not designing work in a
way to allow for that. So as individuals we have
to acknowledge and be self aware like Madison is that
I'm not actually making the time and space. And then
as teams and organizations we can actually design in ways.
Speaker 8 (17:52):
To do that. It can start with the way you design.
Speaker 15 (17:53):
For example, the biggest organizational artifact ever, the meeting.
Speaker 8 (17:58):
We don't have to run meetings.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
The way we typical we do Yeah, by by bye something?
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Hey don't can you unmute yourself Sally?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Okay, that's how we usually started eating these days. Michael
is calling from Rochester, Minnesota. Michael, welcome to the middle.
Why do you create?
Speaker 11 (18:16):
Hello? Yeah, thanks for having me. I actually am not
an artist. I don't do anything really even remotely related
to art, and I create to give myself joy and
to also kind of keep my mind active and then
to teach my kids how to do things. Because what
(18:37):
I do to create is come up with improvised solutions
to any household issue that might be. Like we had
to pick some apples from the forty foot tree.
Speaker 9 (18:47):
The other day.
Speaker 11 (18:48):
So we got a pickle jar and some string and
some hangers and bamboo garden stakes, and we lasted together,
and we pulled the string and priss the wires of
the hanger together. And in the day when so much
is online and so many answers are there, that is
(19:08):
I think important.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, using your hands figuring out a solution to a problem, Michael,
thank you for that at Duncan you know not every
person I mean, this is the whole point of this.
Is not every person who's a creator is an artist
or a musician. This is something you have to use everything.
Speaker 16 (19:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (19:23):
I define creativity is the believe to have an idea.
We will do that hundred times today. I define innovations
ability to get that idea done. That's the hard part.
But we all learn different ways, and it's about appealing
to all three. So let me ask you a question.
I'm ask you more.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
More, more, more, homework, cleasure.
Speaker 9 (19:39):
Closure, eyes. I'm going to ask you a question. How
many days are there in September?
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Thirty thirty?
Speaker 9 (19:47):
Keep your eyes closes. What did you think about? How
you knew the answer to that question? How did you learn?
How do you remember it? Or what could you see
right now with your eyes closed?
Speaker 8 (19:54):
It was the day I was born?
Speaker 9 (19:56):
Okay days because folloween jerem.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Thirty days has September?
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Gotcha, Toliver, Halloween is October thirty.
Speaker 9 (20:06):
Four, Halloween. Okay, So I'll do this with you. You're
going to be noticed. I do this with huge audiences.
Thirty percent of the audience will do exactly what Jeremy
just did. Thirty days have September bluff. They've just told
me by listening their auditory learners. How do I know that?
Because Jeremy was six? How does he remember it? Because
he heard it? And you've got another thirty percent of
the audience that will count their kupples January, February, March,
ape or May June. Those are Kenny thirty learners. They
(20:27):
learned by doing. And then forty percent of the audiens
go no, no, I could just see a candle with
the word September. With your visual learners, and so I
designed the book to appeal to all three because when
you see a book in an office, whereas it is
on the bookshelf, I don't have time to read it.
My boss needs this by two o'clock. So I have
a content spage which basically said, it's like my mum's cookbook.
You want Shepherd's Pie. It's on pay sixty seven, So
(20:48):
it says, have you ever mean to your brain storm
when nothing ever happened? Go to pay twelve. What can
they heavenly regulated histrict? You go to play sixty four,
and then there's QR codes for Geremany, for Jeremy, it's
Possify playlists. For visual learners, there's animated videos. I will
pop out of the book as a culture character and
make the process fun for you, but actually teach you
how useful tools. And then for the kid aesthetic learners,
the backpage is fully integrated AI. You can ask the
(21:10):
book a question how to solve a specific challenge with
a specific tool in the book, and the book ancy
straight away. And I think it's about appealing to all
three learning styles, and so often we don't, which is
all the other?
Speaker 10 (21:21):
Can I build on something? Michael said, I love that
Michael said that I create through problem solving, right through improvisation,
because I think duncan and I start out by saying,
creativity is not something only.
Speaker 8 (21:33):
Artists are great at.
Speaker 10 (21:34):
And if I could leave one thing only for listeners
to take away and to ponder, it's The way I
think about creativity is that it's our ability to toggle
between wonder and rigor to solve problems and produce novel value.
No wonder is that dimension of creativity people like, well, yeah, wonder,
if you're creative, you're super wondrous. But rigor is that
(21:57):
other dimension that is equally signific in any creative act,
in any creative process, whether it's figuring out how to
get fruit from a really tall tree, or figure out
your next marketing strategy, or a new way home because
the road is blocked right, or painting, it's this toggling
between wonder and rigor to solve problems. And if we
(22:18):
begin to think of that more democratized way of creativity,
then we was the best engineers and scientists and executive
assistants and teachers and farmers and plumbers and artists are
super creative, but only when they're intentionally doing this engagement
between wonder and rigor.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Yeah, wonder. It's such a great thing.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I remember just in the course of a career in broadcasting,
there's a term we use called surprise and delight, which
is always a nice thing to bring to the audience
occasionally and give them an idea that maybe they didn't
have in their head before. Paul is calling in from Houston, Texas. Hi, Paul,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Go ahead. Why do you create?
Speaker 17 (22:57):
Hey, guys, how you doing? Thank you so much for
having me on. First of all, I want to say,
whoever your guest is that wrote the book, who's using
the neuro linguistic programming in the back system. I'm super
impressed and I can't wait to get this book and
see it and play with it. It sounds like it's
so much fun.
Speaker 18 (23:13):
My comment on why I create, I believe it's the
answer for what humanity is in its essence, and that
is why we the question of asking why.
Speaker 17 (23:26):
And I want to add on to that, that to
the young lady who was talking a moment ago, and
add in that there's a really good head.
Speaker 19 (23:35):
Talk that is from from the woman who wrote Eat, Pray, Love,
and it's it's talking about our elusive genius and how.
Speaker 17 (23:46):
Much that's so outside of ourselves. Like when you go
back into the past, the genius was a sprite, something
that came in in the middle of the night and
kind of finished the cobbler's shoes, if you will. So
I think on some level I love the idea of
what she was talking about, how rigor is part of
(24:06):
the process. I love that. I love how what that's
really kind of saying that, Yeah, you can have an idea,
you can have an intention, but without any actual work
with within it. What do you have nothing but an idea?
Nothing but an intention? And then somebody else does it.
My last comment here is I use AI every single day.
(24:27):
I'm known as the Biden robo call magician, unfortunately because
of a client. And since then, I've written nine books,
I've put out tons of content. I have an AI influencer,
she has music videos. I have put out my own
musical that's one of the only musicals that's in the
(24:48):
American Writers Guild.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
So do you think AI is good for creativity? Yeah, okay, all.
Speaker 17 (24:56):
Right, one hundred percent. I think that what it is
is that it gives you the ability to be the conductor,
be the producer like a Michelangelo or a bank seat.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Oh wow, Michael Landel, Okay, let me go to Duncan
wardle on that. Because we heard from Natalie about AI,
artificial intelligence and creativity.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Dougan, what do you think.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I know that you've written that it actually can be
quite useful and may free us up to be more imaginative.
Speaker 9 (25:22):
Well, I think when Natalie started, she said seventy five percent.
I've done these surveys of many companies, but you're right
over seventy percent of the employees when asked what's the
biggest baron to being more innovative and creative where I
work is I don't have time to think. And simply
by giving time to think right where you are, when
you're in the shower, when you have your best study,
AI is about to give us time to think. And
(25:43):
I'll make a prediction for about one hundred and fifty
years from now. When we were small kids, we used
to remember the phone numbers of everybody we knew, and
now we don't remember any because the iPhone has got
it for us. So our brain is like a hard
disk and we've opened up a little bit more of
time to think. Well, eventually, I can't tell you exactly
how far away it comes to neuralink. And at some
point our children or grandchildren will have a neural link.
They'll be walking wikipedias. But at that point we will
(26:07):
be cap full of infinite thoughts. We will not compete
with AI. We will as we take on more prosthetic parts,
prosthetic limbs, hearing cataract surgeries. Our heart is a pump.
They're going to figure it out at some point. As
we seek everlasting life, a longer, better healthy, we're going
to become a secondhand car. We don't take up parts,
but we will not compete with AI. We will merge
with AI to become superhuman race. AI will bring in
(26:29):
the algorithms, and we'll bring in the most uniquely things
to us creativity, imagination, and for the intuition and curiosity.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
If we can find the electricity to power AI things
for us. Tolliver, what are people writing in online?
Speaker 4 (26:44):
So I'm just still gobsmacked. I want to be a superhuman,
Larissa says. Your guest mentioned the education system training the
creativity out of us. I play one of my favorite
songs from my kids to encourage them in their daydreaming.
Ian from Charleston says, I create to have fun, whether
it's drawing geared driven clocks or making YouTube videos about that.
And I just had a question. So I was talking
(27:07):
to a frien yesterday about happiness, about how happiness is fleeting.
But when I make art, I feel like I have
some value. So I don't chase happiness. I chase sort
of like value myself. So I just wanted to pose
that to our guests. Maybe Natalie, can you talk about
that idea of art as protective m.
Speaker 10 (27:24):
Yeah, so and I And again, I don't conflict creativity
with art. I think artists are excellent at wrestling with
the ambiguity of the creative process of wrestling with that
talking between wonder and rigor. But your your your point
about about the value that that that is imbued and art,
I think because art makes manifest something that was once
(27:45):
internal to us, something that was just kind of we were, uh, couldn't, couldn't, couldn't, couldn't.
Speaker 8 (27:52):
We had to get it out of us in some way, right.
Speaker 10 (27:55):
And sometimes it's through music, and it's just through movements,
sometimes just through words. Sometimes it's through tinking. Sometimes it's
just for example, you know.
Speaker 8 (28:03):
I made up my job title.
Speaker 10 (28:05):
I'm a creativity strategist.
Speaker 8 (28:06):
I did a.
Speaker 10 (28:07):
Mashup between two dimensions of my work and myself that
I love and that I'm excellent at. And I've made
manifest something that wasn't real eight years ago. Right, that's
a creative process. So that's the value that it gives.
Art is something that versus design, that we're not going
to commodify.
Speaker 8 (28:27):
It exists for its own sake.
Speaker 10 (28:29):
It exists for open interpretation, you know, getting back to
the comments about education, one of the things that I
love about artists is their ability to.
Speaker 8 (28:39):
Say I don't know.
Speaker 15 (28:40):
So if you go to an open studio, or you
meet the choreographer after a work in progress, or meet
the artists and you.
Speaker 10 (28:47):
Ask them, gosh, this is so cool, like what are
you thinking about next? Where's is headed? And they'll say,
you know, I don't really know. And that ability to
fall in love with the process is part of the value,
which would you say, Tolliver, let.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Me let me just we're running up close to a
break here, but let me just follow up briefly Natalie
by saying, bringing this into what's happening in the world,
right now, which is that there are big cuts happening
to arts education, There are big cuts happening to education
in this country. Is that going to negatively impact our
ability to be creative?
Speaker 9 (29:18):
Can I go that one? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Yeah, duck you go, but it's only about thirty seconds.
Speaker 9 (29:21):
Go ahead, Okay, all right? Who are the most creazy
people you've ever met? Who are they?
Speaker 3 (29:27):
There are so many? I don't know.
Speaker 9 (29:28):
Yeah, who are they? They were around you every single day? Children?
How much money? How much money? They go? Yeah?
Speaker 10 (29:35):
Okay, so yeah, Sir Ken Robinson, your your home, your homeland.
Speaker 8 (29:40):
Brother, brother duncan talk.
Speaker 10 (29:42):
It's been his whole life's work talking about how we
burn the creativity out of children over time.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, uh okay, Tolliver, I hereby give you another chance
to inspire us with the words of a brilliant creative American.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
Who will it be is the late great poet and
author Maya Angelou, who explained her creative process in a
PBS American Master's documentary.
Speaker 20 (30:05):
Everybody in the world uses words, uses, how are you fine?
Speaker 21 (30:10):
Thank you?
Speaker 20 (30:12):
Verbs and verbs, adjectives, nouns, pronouns. The writer has to
take these most known things and put them together in
such a way that a reader says, I never thought
of it that way, thoughts. It's a challenge, and I
know many writers and I'm one, says loud. Are you
(30:33):
sure you wanted me to do this?
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Wow? What an amazing clip.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Tolliver, Yeah, honestly. I mean I've admired Maya forever and
you know she lives on in all of us.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
And we've got more of your calls about creativity coming
up on the middle. This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
In this hour, we're asking you why and how do
you create? You can call us at eight four four
four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three.
I'm joined by Natalie Nixon, president of Figure eight Thinking,
and Duncan Wordle, former head of Innovation and Creativity for
(31:07):
the Walt Disney Company. And the lines are full. Let's
go to Robin in Salt Lake City, Utah. Robin, go ahead,
Why do you create?
Speaker 7 (31:16):
Hi?
Speaker 22 (31:17):
You know I can't not create and this has just
been in me forever. But the thing is now, I've
been having a rough life and now the reason is
it's an outlet. It's a release, and it also helps
me to work through the problems. I can work through
(31:38):
the artistic process and work solving those and focus on that.
But somehow it's tying into my psyche. And I'm also
finding that when I relax enough and work through this stuff,
which is not always relaxing.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
By the way, usually though, is that is that your outlet?
Speaker 22 (32:04):
Well, yes, I write poetry, but I also do a
visual art. I do digital art currently though, and for
the last couple of years.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Mm hmm, Robin, great, great points there, Duncan you know
this is another theme we're hearing.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
It makes people happy and.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
It makes it relaxes people, helps them, you know, deal
with difficult things.
Speaker 9 (32:27):
Yeah. So when I was tasked, you know, the CEO said, listen,
you're going to be in charge of innovation and creativity
and my exact responsible what the hell is that? And
he said, well, we want to embed the culture of
innovation and creativity into everybody's DNA. So I said, out
to create a toolkit that has three principles, and that's
what's in the book. It takes the intimidation out of innovation.
That makes it accessible to normal, hard working, busy people.
(32:49):
It makes creativity tangible for those people who are nervous
of ambiguity great far more importantly, make it fun. If
you give people tools they choose to use when you
and I are not around, then you'll change a culture.
I want to try. I'm gonna try one more exercise
because I think it's this is perhaps the most important exercise.
We used to use a Pixar, Marvel, Lucasfilms, and Disney
because the more I experience, the more expertise we have,
(33:12):
the more reasons we know why the new idea won't work.
So we can't stantly shoot it down with phrases that no,
because you know we tried that last year. That's not
the way we do it here. So, Jeremy, I'm going
to come here with an idea for a Star Wars party.
We've got one hundred thousand dollars in the budget. I
want you to respond to each and every one of
my ideas with no because and tell me why not no,
(33:32):
because it'll be the first two words you use. So
I was thinking we come over to your studio and
we can have a cosplay party. All the tool people
could come as Vader and all the little people come
as e Woes.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Now, because I think there'll be too many people here,
we're not gonna be where are they gonna where they're
going to park?
Speaker 9 (33:47):
All right? Well how about glow in the dark lightsabers
full of our favorite alcoholic liquid.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Well, no, because they're gonna be people that don't drink.
And also, like what if people aren't into Star Wars.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
They wouldn't under the would you show the movies and
give them free popcorn and cocacata?
Speaker 10 (34:05):
No?
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Because I just I think, why don't you go back
to the drawing board, duncan? I've done a good job
of saying no.
Speaker 9 (34:13):
Okay, so yes, so we'll stop there when somebody is
constantly saying no. Because to you, when you're throwing ideas,
how does that make you feel?
Speaker 16 (34:21):
No?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
It doesn't feel good at all?
Speaker 9 (34:22):
Right, okay? And you would you think our idea was
getting bigger or smaller as it was going on?
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Just then smaller?
Speaker 9 (34:30):
Okay? Natalie, you're up girl. Are you familiar with Harry Potter?
Speaker 10 (34:33):
I am, yes?
Speaker 9 (34:34):
Okay, so I'm going to come at you some Harry
Potter party ideas. And like Jeremy who started with the
words no, because I'd like you to start each of
my response with the words yes, And there'll be the
first two words you used it and we'll just build
it together. So I was thinking, right, I could come
to your house. We could put the sorting hair outside
the front door. All the good people get the griffind
door party and all the bad people get the dark
mysterious slythering party.
Speaker 10 (34:55):
Yes, and we could even build desserts around this thing.
Speaker 8 (34:57):
That would be amazing.
Speaker 9 (34:58):
Ooh yes, and yes, we could do the Great bake
off and actually have desserts for Griffindoor and Slitherin and
a dark mysterious pie.
Speaker 8 (35:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (35:06):
And then what if we even added an gave it
fight a bit at a little competition and ask people
to vote for their favored dessert mashed.
Speaker 8 (35:15):
Up with the costume that really pairs off with.
Speaker 9 (35:18):
It really ooh yes? And okay, so we're going to
stop there. So a lot more energy, a lot more excitement,
a lot more laughter become the first time was our
idea getting bigger or smaller? Which way was it headed?
Big mask around there? Yeah? You could always take a
big idea of value engineer it down far more importantly,
we all have colleagues and clients to bring on board
(35:38):
with our ideas. By the time you and I just
finished building that idea together? Whose idea was it? By
the time we'd finished ours Ours two very simple words
from the word of improv that have a remarkable power
to take a small idea into a big one really quickly,
but far more importantly transfers the power of my idea,
which never goes anywhere inside an organization, to our idea
and accelerating its opportunity to get When somebody comes at
(36:01):
you with a new idea, don't let the first two
words out of your mouth be no, because just remind yourselves.
I know your responsibilities. I have deadlines called. We're not
green lighting this idea for execution today. We don't really
greenhousing it together using yes, duncan.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Jeremy let me Just because we've got so many calls,
I want to get to one of them. Moss is
calling from Charleston, South Carolina High Moss, go ahead with
your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
How do you Why do you create?
Speaker 7 (36:27):
Hi?
Speaker 16 (36:28):
Thanks for taking my call. I create because it feels
almost like an instinctual need, similar to the last caller.
It kind of comes out of me and it's a
puzzle that you have to put together. It connects me
to the world around me. My feelings and what's happened.
But it also reminds me of my ancestry and human evolution,
(36:50):
Like prehistoric art is so cool and to me, it's
a way to continue that.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
And what do you do to create? How are you?
How do you what your creative outlet?
Speaker 16 (37:03):
Well, right now, I'm studying to be a tattoo artist
and just start an apprenticeship and I'm stoked for it.
I also love to dance and make music and go
to live shows. Music is probably my favorite outlet. And
I also like to write. I like to write songs
and poems.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Mm hmm Moss.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
And by the way, let me ask you one more question.
Do you do you find that the existence of social
media keeps you from being able to create?
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Or do you are you able to stay away from it?
Speaker 16 (37:31):
I try to stay away from social media because it's distracting.
It's a It's a good and bad thing because it
does give really good exposure to artists who need it,
but also you can be trapped into comparison game or
it because it's almost reliant to need social media to
be an artist these days and make money off it.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yeah, Moss, thank you very much, Natalie. Your thoughts here.
Speaker 10 (37:56):
Yeah, I just wanted to build on something that both
Robin and Moss mentioned and their responses about why they create,
and they both reference having an outlet. So to build
on Duncan's advice about becoming more improvisational in the ways
that we discuss ideas and problem solving within the workplace.
Speaker 8 (38:15):
One of the best things.
Speaker 10 (38:16):
That people can do to build their capacity for creativity
is to become a clumsy student of something outside of
work where they are not the smartest person in the room.
And what that begins to do is it actually begins
to activate something I call the three eyes. It activates inquiry, improvisation,
and intuition.
Speaker 8 (38:37):
So, for example, I've been.
Speaker 10 (38:38):
A clumsy student of ballroom dance for the past five years,
and because of that, I have to raise my hand
and admit I don't get what we're doing right now.
I have to intuit because typically the woman is the follower,
not always, and so I have to wait, I have
to be I have to really discern connection, and I
(38:58):
have to be much more experimental. And the first time
I realized this was carrying over into my work, it's
probably about three years ago. I probably been studying ball
rooms consistently for about a year. I was on a
call with a client and they were throwing around all
these oxymorons the ABC of X y Z, And I thought,
I have no idea what they're talking about. And I thought,
I'll probably not really stupid if I asked them what
(39:19):
they're asking what they're talking about. But because different neural
synapses had been strengthened in my clumsy student life, I
was a lot more braver about just asking, you know,
I'm sorry, what is the ABC of the X y Z?
And they kind of paused and they were like, actually, why.
Speaker 8 (39:35):
Do we call it that?
Speaker 11 (39:36):
Right?
Speaker 10 (39:36):
They didn't even remember why they had these oxymorons, And
the world did not come to a screeching halt because.
Speaker 8 (39:42):
I admitted ignorance.
Speaker 10 (39:43):
And the point is that when we are able to
exercise in other dimensions of our lives, this ability to
be creative, to practice wonder and rigor, it carries over
into the work.
Speaker 15 (39:57):
And I predict that in the future of work, the
companies that are going you're able to attract and retain
the best talent will be those that practice inside outwork,
that are curious about what makes us tick internally in
order to do our best work externally.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
But hearing another theme here asking questions an important part
of this collaborating with people, not saying no to two ideas,
letting people you know, have the time to think about
these things. You be is calling in from Aurora, Colorado.
You be Why do you create?
Speaker 21 (40:29):
Hey, Jeremy and DJ Tolliver and Nina Simpy, You guys,
I am create because that's kind of my place where
I recharge or try to recharge right now in the
middle of the news cycle and all the stuff that's
going on in popular culture. And so it's kind of
(40:51):
my way of making sense of the gray and trying
to understand it and to not be scared of it.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
And do you feel like it is you full in
your work or is it just an outlet for you
to relax, Like does it help you via you know,
make your living?
Speaker 21 (41:09):
Absolutely?
Speaker 10 (41:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 21 (41:10):
I actually left my job as an immigration paralegal and
started my own para legal consultancy afterwards because I saw
the opportunity to assist more attorneys and more legal teams.
And I also became an AI prompt engineer. So I
really listened to what one of your guests was saying
(41:32):
about how AI is very much a tool and is
only as good as a prompt that you give it.
And so I actually started like a session, a group
session with black women freelancers so that they could understand
that when you talk to chatchibuto, when you interact with it,
the more creative and specific you are with your prompts,
(41:53):
the better goal it pops out. And so it very
much creativity is is how I how I exist in
the world. I don't know any other way to not
be creative. Yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, you'll be thank you very much for that, Doug,
and I kind of wonder we've heard from a lot
of people that go to art or that are artists,
but small business in this country is so driven by
the ability to be creative and think outside the box.
Speaker 9 (42:22):
Yeah. Look again, I can't paint, I can't dance, I
don't write poetry. Do I consider myself a creative person?
Speaker 14 (42:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (42:29):
But can I paint? Can I write music? And no?
Absolutely not. Have some mad ideas. I think sometimes it's
about breaking rules and I but what if what if
there's a tool to sort of metaphorically that Walt Disney
was a genius, right, he wanted to pump missed into
the theater during Fantasi wanted he pumped in and the theater,
and I said, no, Walt, that's not the way we
(42:50):
do it here. So Walt's step one. If you're working
on something next week, entrepreneur, for example, just write down
the rules of the industry in which you work. So
Walt wrote down the rules that go into a movie theater.
I must sit down it is dark, I must be quiet.
I must go at a set time. I Walt, can't
control the environment. So then you lit the rules. Don't
think about the more you start thinking all the reasons
(43:10):
you can't break them. Then pick one and ask the
most audacious, provocative, outrageous wars if question. The more outrageous
your WAAF question, the further out of your river of thinking,
your experiencing pertise, you'll jump. So he said, well what
if I could control the environment. Well he couldn't, and
that wasn't our rageous enough. So he said, well what
if I take my movies out of the theater? Now,
if you know the answer, you're ristrating. If you're if
it makes you nervous, you're innovating. So he said, well, well,
(43:32):
how are you going to do that? Well, the two
dimensional therefa all over. What if I made them three dimensional? Well,
how are you going to do that? Well? Well, what
if I just had people in costume? I get have
pirates and princesses and cowboys, but well you can't have
Cinderella standing yaks to Jacks Vara. Well what if I
put each of the characters in different land? Oh wait,
what if I call it Disneyland? Boom? We're done here. Now.
I know people listening will say, we don't have the
(43:53):
resources of Disney, and that's a very Of course you don't.
But I'll give you a tiny example because I want
you to know the talk can work for you too.
There was a time any company in Great Britain in
the late sixties they used to make glasses that we
drink out of. They found too much break kitchen and
enough production. So they went down to the shop floor,
observed that the industry, observed the process of where they were,
and wrote down the rules. Twenty six employees convey about
twelve glasses to a box, glasses separated by corrugated cardboard,
(44:16):
glasses wrapped in newspaper. Employees reading the newspaper, so somebody
asked the most absurd wassive question, or what if we
poke their eyes out? Well that's against the law and
it's not very nice. But because they had the courage
to ask the most absurd wossive question of all, the
ladies sitting next to him immediately jumped out of her river.
I think he said, well, wait a minute, what if
we just hired blind people? But actually, up twenty six percent,
break is down forty two percent a British government game
(44:38):
of fifty percent salary subsidy for hiring people with disabilities.
So it's not about breaking the rules. It's about breaking
the rules metaphorically. And again it's about giving people tools,
because we're all asked to get into a room and
have a brainstorm, but we don't teach people how to
do it.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
I feel like you've told that example before. In your career,
you got all the facts that see I was.
Speaker 9 (44:58):
A great rule breaker. People in Germany told they're not creative,
people in it are told they're not creative, people in
finance are told they're not all the creatives. I'm sorry,
I agree with Natalie, and clearly everybody's creative.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
Yeah, there's only one sentence from somebody. Ellen Nashville says,
When I create, it feels like I'm tapping into the
full human experience, reaching backwards and forests through humanity, and
I just creative response.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yes, I'm gonna I'm gonna sneak in one more call
here and it's going to be Alicia, who is in Irwin, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
Alicia tell us, why do you create?
Speaker 23 (45:34):
Well, I have a port photography studio. I had it
for forty five years and I was the only female
studio owner when I opened my studio. To me, photography
can be either a stiff image or a work of
art that depends on how the person behind the camera
(45:57):
is able to capture the essence of the subject that
comes with the posing, the lighting, knowing the rules but
not directing exactly how it has to be, but letting
the person act the way they feel like acting and
(46:20):
capturing the expression their soul.
Speaker 6 (46:23):
That to me is art.
Speaker 23 (46:27):
I always think that I click before I think before
I click, because just to capture the image, I need
to make sure that I have what I want to
get in front of my camera. Now, to me, AI
(46:50):
is a tool the same way that my camera is
a tool. It allows me to create even more. But
that is if I am in charge, if I let
Ai do it for me, that's not art. That is
just something stiff that any machine or any can do it.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Alisa, a great point to end on. I really appreciate
your call. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
And Natalie, I'm gonna.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
I'm gonna, just because we just heard from somebody who's
been a pro photographer for forty five years, I'll give
you the last word here. What would your advice be
to people who are older about how to stay creative?
Speaker 10 (47:37):
I might As I listened to Lisa, I was thinking
about the American dancy choreographer Twila Tharp, who in her
great book The Creative Habit, said that before you can
think out of the box, you must start with a box.
Speaker 8 (47:48):
You must know the rules so that you can break them.
Speaker 10 (47:51):
And you would ask earlier about examples of business. When
I think about what a President Obama did with the
way he the micro fundraising campaign he introduced into political fundraising,
that was a creative act.
Speaker 8 (48:02):
What the way Airbnb got started.
Speaker 10 (48:04):
So for older people, it's just new rules to learn
so that you can break them. So getting really curious,
taking workshops, going to webinars and listen.
Speaker 8 (48:13):
I'm a gen xer.
Speaker 10 (48:14):
I guess I'm solidly middle aged. So I'll put my
generation to that bucket of needing to be open to learning,
being more curious than certain right, so that we learn
new rules and they get excited about how all the
ways we can start to break them, which is a
creative act.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Well, I want to thank both of you. Natalie Nixon,
president of Figure eight Thinking. Her new book is called Move, Think, Rest,
and Duncan Wordle from her head of innovation and creativity
for the Walt Disney Company. His book is called The
Imagination Emporium. Great to have both of you on. Thank
you so much, Thank you, thank you, and don't forget
to subscribe.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
To our podcast.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
We've got extra episodes available every week only on the
Middle podcast feed. Next week we're going to be back
here with a more political topic, asking you for your
thoughts about President Trump's use of the National Guard in
cities around the country. We're going to be broadcasting live
from Las Studios in Los Angeles, the first city where
they were deployed back in June.
Speaker 4 (49:06):
Our number is eight four four four Middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can reach us at listen to the Middle dot com,
where you can also sign up for our free weekly
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Speaker 2 (49:16):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and Urbana Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmistas, John Barth, An Akadeshler,
and Brandon Condritz.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
Our technical director is Steve mork. Thanks to our.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and the hundreds of
public radio stations that are making it possible for people
across the country for the last two years now to
listen to The Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
I'll talk to you next week.
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
the show and from you. Thanks for making a donation
at listen toothemiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our
house TJ. Tolliver and Taliver. It's our birthday.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
We are officially two years old as a weekly show.
Speaker 4 (00:21):
Are we teething yet? I don't know how babies are
with that?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
I think yeah, we're definitely teething by now. It is
kind of amazing, especially given the headwinds that are going
on right now. Public broadcasting lost all of it's funding
from the federal government.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
We are still here, still alive.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
We have done more than one hundred shows, plus an
additional thirty episodes of our weekly One Thing Trump Did podcast,
which looks in a non partisan way at one thing
coming out of the Trump White House each week. And
we are of course very grateful to the more than
four hundred public radio stations plus Serious XM plus our podcast.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Listeners are amazing. Listeners really make the show.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
Yeah, we are the only national show that actually allows
listeners to join the conversation on your live or online
with me, and I think that's pretty awesome.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
It is pretty awesome.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
So this hour we're talking about creativity, which is deeply
interwoven into the American identity.
Speaker 3 (01:09):
Of course, there's musical creativity, which.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
Brought us jazz and blues and rock and roll. There's
artistic creativity from artists like Georgia O'Keefe and Jackson Pollock.
There's also the creativity of innovation in business, everything from
people who start their own small business to developing life
changing inventions like the iPhone or the airplane or the internet.
So this hour we want to get at the heart
of that topic, to explore why we create in the
(01:33):
first place and what you do to express that creativity,
especially in an age of artificial intelligence. We're going to
be taking your calls as usual at eight four four
four Middle that's eight four four four six four three
three five three, or you can write to us at
listen toothemiddle dot com. But first, last week we talked
about what's being lost in education in the digital age.
Speaker 3 (01:55):
Here are some of the comments we got on our voicemail.
Speaker 5 (01:58):
Hi, this is justin calling from More. I'm a professor
here in the city and one of the things that
I've noticed that has been lost during a digital age
is the accidental learning that happens from imagination, and I
really am sad to see that with my students, but
also creeping into my own practices. I've had to combat that.
Speaker 6 (02:20):
My name is Janet. I'm calling from northern New York State.
I'm concerned that people are so tuned into the screen
that they don't understand how to look up into the
world and do something like use a hammer and a nail.
Speaker 7 (02:33):
My name is Peter Miller. I'm calling from Columbia, South Carolina.
I am a grandfather of three children. The problem with
the Internet and the accessibility of iPhones and iPads is
that the second child is bored, they immediately go to
their iPad and it fills their time. And so in
terms of what children have lost is they've lost the ability,
(02:55):
the positive ability to be bored.
Speaker 3 (03:00):
What a great point.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Thanks to everyone who wasn't bored by our show and
called in. You can hear that full show by subscribing
to The Middle Podcasts wherever you listen to podcasts. So
now to our question this hour, why do you create
and how tolliver?
Speaker 3 (03:12):
What is our number?
Speaker 4 (03:13):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four at three three
five three, or you can write to us at Listen
to the Middle dot com or comment on our YouTube.
And I want to shout out Julianne who sent in
a bunch of her crafts to our email account.
Speaker 3 (03:28):
Okay, great, Yeah, joining us this hour.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Duncan Wordle, former head of innovation and creativity for the
Walt Disney Company. His book is called The Imagination Emporium. Duncan,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Thanks for having me and also joining.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Us, Natalie Nixon, president of Figure eight Thinking. Her book
is called Move, Think Rest Natalie.
Speaker 8 (03:46):
Great to have you on, awesome to be here, Thanks
for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
And my book is called I don't have a book,
so not yet anyway next year. Okay, so before we
get to the phones, I really want to hear from
both of you. You've both written about what allows to
be creative. What the best conditions are, Duncan, what would
you say they are?
Speaker 9 (04:05):
Well, let me ask you both a question. Actually, Tolliver,
Jeremy and Natalie close your eyes. Okay, where are you?
Where are you and what are you doing when you
get your best ideas?
Speaker 2 (04:18):
I would say probably, I like I one of my
best ideas came to me, well, rid after a bike ride,
like a long bike ride where I was not looking
on my.
Speaker 4 (04:27):
Screen, hiking around La just walking around the city.
Speaker 9 (04:32):
And here in the sound Natalie.
Speaker 10 (04:34):
After a good swim or good ballroom dance class.
Speaker 9 (04:37):
Okay, so I've done this with up to twenty thousand
people in the room at the same time. And guess
how many people say the words at work? Nobody has
their best ideas? Well? Why do we never have our
best ideas when we need them? More closure eyes again?
Picture that last verbal argument you were in with somebody,
a bit of a screaming match. You're angry at them,
they're angry at you. Now you turn to walk away
from that argument. Now you're five seconds way, you're ten seconds,
(05:00):
you're no more than twenty seconds away from that argument.
And what just popped into your head total spontaneously the
second you turn to walk away from the argument? What
was it?
Speaker 4 (05:08):
I regret?
Speaker 6 (05:09):
Is that?
Speaker 9 (05:10):
Okay, nice empathetic person? What else? Come on? What just
pop right in there?
Speaker 8 (05:15):
What I should have said.
Speaker 9 (05:18):
That one perfect beautiful line? But you never did, did
you know? Because when we're in argument, our brain is
moving at one thousand miles an hour defending ourselves when
we're in the office. It's the emails, presentations, meetings, and
I hear myself say I don't have time to think.
And when you say you don't have time to think,
you run the brain state that calls beta busy beta
where the door between your conscious and subconscious brain is
(05:38):
closed and you're only working with your conscious brain. That's
thirteen percent of the capacity of your brain. Eighty seven
percent of the capacity of your brain is subconscious. Every
innovation you've ever seen, creation probably you've ever solved. So
how do we access that part of the brain on
demand and place ourselves metaphorically back in the show when
we have our best ideas by being playful just like children.
The moment I run energizers, there's sixty second exercises specifically
(06:01):
designed to make you laugh. Why Because the moment I
hear laughter, I just opened the door between your conscious
and subconscious brain.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah. Great points. Natalie. What about you?
Speaker 2 (06:09):
Where where do you see the conditions for creativity coming from?
Speaker 10 (06:14):
Well, first of all, I agree with Duncan Wordo. A
lot of what he's pointing to the neuroscience about creativity
is that when we allow the default mode network of
the brain to be activated. When we tap out of
the world, that's when our juice, the juicy bits of
neurals synapses happen.
Speaker 8 (06:33):
I think it's it's part of the human birthright to
be creative.
Speaker 10 (06:35):
I don't believe that there are creative types, don't I
don't believe that only artists.
Speaker 8 (06:39):
Or designers are creative.
Speaker 10 (06:41):
And a lot of our creativity gets drummed out of
us through the educational environment. And what's happening in the
educational context is that we are getting squeezed into certain
sorts of guardrails. Now, not to say that guardrails aren't important.
I believe that creativity loves constraints. Where we have constraints
on time and and people town, that's actually when our
(07:02):
best creativity happens. But what's also happening in our educational
system is that we're sapping out curiosity and we lean
into certainty versus curiosity. We lean into what's the answer
instead of the process. So any conditions that allow us
to grapple with the gray, to grapple with limital space,
to be brave enough to say I don't know this
(07:24):
is when we're on the precipice in the verge of discovery.
It also means that sometimes we have to ask for help,
which often means we lead to better collaborations. And there's
a lot better creative output that could happen when I'm
with the three of you than if I'm just by
myself tinkering away.
Speaker 8 (07:41):
Trying to figure something out.
Speaker 10 (07:42):
So the best conditions for creativity actually, or when there
are constraints, are when we can be with people who
don't think like us, who ask different sorts of questions,
and who actually want us to ask questions, want us
to ask the obvious child face question. That's the juicy bits,
as I like to say, began to happen.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
Okay, So being surrounded by people that don't think like you,
let me ask you this, dunk in. Is there something
very American about creativity because of the melting part of
people that exists here from all over the world that
can collaborate with each other, and because of the and
I say right, especially given what's happening right now relative
freedom of expression.
Speaker 9 (08:23):
Yeah, I'm going to go on two fronts. A. I
just love what Naslie just said. By the way, education
is killing the most employable skill sets the next decade.
Oh outrageous statement, or is it? I did a talk
to three thousand university students. So I brought in thirty
six year olds and set them in the middle, and
I asked, hands up, who's created me? And me?
Speaker 11 (08:39):
Me?
Speaker 9 (08:39):
Thirty little hands didn't hesitate. The other three thousand stayed down.
Why Because we go into first grades and the first
thing in our teacher tells us is don't forget to
come in between the lines. We used to play with
the box, not the toy. And then we were told,
you know, to stop asking why because there's anyone right answer.
The most employable skill sets of the next decade would
be the ones that will be the hardest to program
into AI. All of them. We're all born creative, We're
(09:01):
all born in the imagination. We used to ask why,
why and why again. We all have an amazing intuition.
We will have empathy. But these are getting squeezed out
by education sadly. But onto the other one. Diversity is innovation.
If somebody doesn't look like you, they don't think like you,
so I can prove it. I called them the ninety experts.
These are people I bring into an ideation session specifically
(09:24):
because they don't look like you or they don't know
what you're working on. What does that give them permission
to do? We give them permission to ask a silly
question or throughout the audacious idea ungoverned by your of thinking.
They won't solve the challenge for you, but they are
there to help you think differently. So, for example, I was, actually,
do you guys have pens and paper? I know nobody
ever has pens and paper? Anybody got Okay, I've got
(09:47):
So we were designing a new retail, dining, and entertainment
complex for the Hong Kong Disney resorts. In the room
that day, I had the Disney imagineers. That's what they do.
But on that particular day, I was faced with twelve
white male American architects over fifty. Yeah, that's called group think.
So inviting in as my naive expert, a young girl
from China. Why she was female, she was under twenty,
She was Chinese, but far more important, she wasn't an
(10:07):
architecture wanted engineer. She was a chef, and I knew
she would say or do something to help us think differently.
So I'm going to give you the same task I
gave the imagineers that day. I'm going to give you.
I'm going to name an object. You're going to draw it,
but you only have seven seconds. Ready, all right, here
we go. Please? Would you draw a house? Seven six,
five four three? Share your genius? Come on, people, let's
(10:33):
take a look.
Speaker 10 (10:33):
What you go?
Speaker 9 (10:34):
Cam on camera, Jeremy, come on, let's.
Speaker 3 (10:38):
Take a look.
Speaker 9 (10:39):
Okay, So here's the thing. We all drew. What the
imagineers did. We drew one door, we drew two windows.
Were so instead were what shapes the roof a triangle.
That's called our river of thinking. It's the biggest barrier
to innovation is our own expertise and our own experience.
The young female Chinese chef, she drew dim sum architecture.
Never occurred to her to draw the house the way
we would on the way out the door, the Disney
(11:00):
imagine he has slept a post it note over her drawing,
but simply said, distinctly Disney authentically Chinese. Seven years later,
the strategic brand position that guided the entire design of
the Shanghai Disney result distinctly Disney authentically Chinese. So I
am meeting everybody looks like you don't.
Speaker 3 (11:18):
Yeah, you want to have the diversity. Okay.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
So, and I wonder how our listeners who are on
the phone waiting how their houses look. But Tolliver, you know,
the American Psychiatric Association came out with the survey and
found that Americans who rate their mental health as very
good or excellent tend to spend more time on creative activities,
including playing music.
Speaker 4 (11:37):
Yeah, I can confirm it helps mostly listen here to
jazz legend Nina Simone talking about creativity in a TV
interview in the nineteen sixties.
Speaker 12 (11:46):
An artist duty, as always I'm concerned, is to reflect
the times. I think that is true our painters, sculptors, poets, musicians.
I'm concerned to say that a choice, but I choose
to reflect the times and the situations in which I
(12:07):
find myself. That to me is my duty. So I
don't think you have a choice. How can you be
an artist and not reflect the times?
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Fun fact, my cat was just my laugh and her
name is Nina Smeal.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
Oh my god, that's amazing, you.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
Know, Okay, So that I will tell you that one
of my good friend's cat is named Patricia.
Speaker 3 (12:30):
Our cat, So that's a good one.
Speaker 9 (12:34):
Too.
Speaker 3 (12:35):
We'll be back with your calls coming up on the Middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle,
although this hour we're not doing a very political topic,
so really.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Anybody is welcome.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
We are asking you why do you create? And how Tulliver?
What is the number to call in?
Speaker 4 (12:59):
It's eight four four Middle. That's eight four four four
six four three three five three. You can also write
to us at Listen to the Middle dot com or
on social media.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
I'm joined by Duncan Wordle, former head of innovation and
creativity for the Walt Disney Company, and Natalie Nixon, president
of Figure eight. Thinking before we get to the phones, we've.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Talked about it just a little bit, but let's talk
about AI. Natalie.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Can AI be used to make us more creative or
does it keep us from using our imagination?
Speaker 10 (13:25):
It's a choice as a decision, and we have an
opportunity to really use AI to leverage what makes us
uniquely human and we've all heard references to AI as
the co pilot, AI as the co creator. AI is
only as good as the questions that the coders ask
initially right, and it's definitely only as good as the
(13:47):
questions and the imagination.
Speaker 8 (13:49):
That we allow to take over when we use AI.
Speaker 10 (13:52):
I love a great dictation app. It saves a lot
of time. What I think is really important is to
kind of reframe the way we've been thinking of AI
and technology. We have a tech crush for infatuated with
the technology, slash terrified of it. I really think we're
actually in the middle of a human revolution, not a
technology revolution.
Speaker 8 (14:11):
I think we've got it a bit flipped.
Speaker 10 (14:12):
The opportunity, if we play our cards right, is to
embrace the spaciousness the liminal space.
Speaker 8 (14:20):
That opens up to us.
Speaker 10 (14:21):
Because we can get tasks completed so much more quickly,
and because we can get answers questions excuse me answered
so much more quickly.
Speaker 8 (14:28):
There's the so what that we have to ask.
Speaker 10 (14:31):
It allows for more time for collaboration, for critical thinking,
and to understand that while most of us run the
other direction from ambiguity in liminal space, it's actually for
most of us when we reflect back in our lives
and our careers. It's when we are the precipice of
the unknown, when we have to really forge our way
(14:52):
through the gray wrestle with that ambiguity, that it requires
us to do some back pasting, rely on past experiences,
ask for help, take a courageous leap, and with each step,
venture forward into new possibilities.
Speaker 8 (15:07):
So the artificial intelligence.
Speaker 10 (15:10):
Is it's a tool, right, And I think sometimes listen,
I'm not I'm not. I don't have a dystopian view
of the technology. I don't have a utopian view of
the technology. I think that we have to be heterotope
topia a heterotopic view of the technology. Uh and and
and be consciously critical.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
Of Yeah, every single phone line is full. So let
me get to a caller.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Madison is in Tampa, Florida. Madison, Why and how do
you create?
Speaker 13 (15:41):
I create to express myself and my passion. I crochet
to make something to show someone I care, or just
to make an idea become reality. I write poetry to
express my emotions, similar to singing. I paint because I
want to see these colors make a shape or a
form of something that makes me happy. Or I dropped
(16:01):
data because I want to know why something happened the
way it did.
Speaker 3 (16:06):
And do you find that you have enough time to
do it these days?
Speaker 13 (16:11):
Oh hmm, that is hard.
Speaker 14 (16:14):
It's a lot harder to manage. I've definitely had to
cut back on it. When I was not an adult
with a full time job, or even in college, I
had way more time. But I find that I have to.
Speaker 13 (16:28):
Make it otherwise I don't feel I don't want to say,
not like a person or myself, but I don't feel complete.
Speaker 5 (16:35):
That is yeah, thank you.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
For yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 8 (16:39):
Can what's your name? Madison?
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Madison?
Speaker 8 (16:42):
Yeah, Madison.
Speaker 10 (16:44):
So so thank you for sharing those really specific examples.
One of the reasons I wrote Move Think Rest is
because I realized that a lot of our our best
work has happened when we step away from the desk
and move think Rest is an opportunity to redesign time
and space so that we intentionally make time to do
all the examples when when duncan NASA's close your eyes
(17:05):
and when was the blssome you're creative? Notice that a
lot of us had activity walking movement attached to that,
you know, According to research from market Splash, ninety percent
of business leaders, we'll say that creativity is critical for
market competitive competitiveness. However, seventy five percent of employees say
they don't have enough time to express themselves creatively. So
(17:29):
there's a there's a gap analysis between us saying yes,
we need creativity for business results. There's a business roife creativity,
and yet we actually are not designing work in a
way to allow for that. So as individuals we have
to acknowledge and be self aware like Madison is that
I'm not actually making the time and space. And then
as teams and organizations we can actually design in ways.
Speaker 8 (17:52):
To do that. It can start with the way you design.
Speaker 15 (17:53):
For example, the biggest organizational artifact ever, the meeting.
Speaker 8 (17:58):
We don't have to run meetings.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
The way we typical we do Yeah, by by bye something?
Speaker 3 (18:03):
Hey don't can you unmute yourself Sally?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Okay, that's how we usually started eating these days. Michael
is calling from Rochester, Minnesota. Michael, welcome to the middle.
Why do you create?
Speaker 11 (18:16):
Hello? Yeah, thanks for having me. I actually am not
an artist. I don't do anything really even remotely related
to art, and I create to give myself joy and
to also kind of keep my mind active and then
to teach my kids how to do things. Because what
(18:37):
I do to create is come up with improvised solutions
to any household issue that might be. Like we had
to pick some apples from the forty foot tree.
Speaker 9 (18:47):
The other day.
Speaker 11 (18:48):
So we got a pickle jar and some string and
some hangers and bamboo garden stakes, and we lasted together,
and we pulled the string and priss the wires of
the hanger together. And in the day when so much
is online and so many answers are there, that is
(19:08):
I think important.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Yeah, using your hands figuring out a solution to a problem, Michael,
thank you for that at Duncan you know not every
person I mean, this is the whole point of this.
Is not every person who's a creator is an artist
or a musician. This is something you have to use everything.
Speaker 16 (19:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 9 (19:23):
I define creativity is the believe to have an idea.
We will do that hundred times today. I define innovations
ability to get that idea done. That's the hard part.
But we all learn different ways, and it's about appealing
to all three. So let me ask you a question.
I'm ask you more.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
More, more, more, homework, cleasure.
Speaker 9 (19:39):
Closure, eyes. I'm going to ask you a question. How
many days are there in September?
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Thirty thirty?
Speaker 9 (19:47):
Keep your eyes closes. What did you think about? How
you knew the answer to that question? How did you learn?
How do you remember it? Or what could you see
right now with your eyes closed?
Speaker 8 (19:54):
It was the day I was born?
Speaker 9 (19:56):
Okay days because folloween jerem.
Speaker 3 (20:00):
Thirty days has September?
Speaker 4 (20:02):
Gotcha, Toliver, Halloween is October thirty.
Speaker 9 (20:06):
Four, Halloween. Okay, So I'll do this with you. You're
going to be noticed. I do this with huge audiences.
Thirty percent of the audience will do exactly what Jeremy
just did. Thirty days have September bluff. They've just told
me by listening their auditory learners. How do I know that?
Because Jeremy was six? How does he remember it? Because
he heard it? And you've got another thirty percent of
the audience that will count their kupples January, February, March,
ape or May June. Those are Kenny thirty learners. They
(20:27):
learned by doing. And then forty percent of the audiens
go no, no, I could just see a candle with
the word September. With your visual learners, and so I
designed the book to appeal to all three because when
you see a book in an office, whereas it is
on the bookshelf, I don't have time to read it.
My boss needs this by two o'clock. So I have
a content spage which basically said, it's like my mum's cookbook.
You want Shepherd's Pie. It's on pay sixty seven, So
(20:48):
it says, have you ever mean to your brain storm
when nothing ever happened? Go to pay twelve. What can
they heavenly regulated histrict? You go to play sixty four,
and then there's QR codes for Geremany, for Jeremy, it's
Possify playlists. For visual learners, there's animated videos. I will
pop out of the book as a culture character and
make the process fun for you, but actually teach you
how useful tools. And then for the kid aesthetic learners,
the backpage is fully integrated AI. You can ask the
(21:10):
book a question how to solve a specific challenge with
a specific tool in the book, and the book ancy
straight away. And I think it's about appealing to all
three learning styles, and so often we don't, which is
all the other?
Speaker 10 (21:21):
Can I build on something? Michael said, I love that
Michael said that I create through problem solving, right through improvisation,
because I think duncan and I start out by saying,
creativity is not something only.
Speaker 8 (21:33):
Artists are great at.
Speaker 10 (21:34):
And if I could leave one thing only for listeners
to take away and to ponder, it's The way I
think about creativity is that it's our ability to toggle
between wonder and rigor to solve problems and produce novel value.
No wonder is that dimension of creativity people like, well, yeah, wonder,
if you're creative, you're super wondrous. But rigor is that
(21:57):
other dimension that is equally signific in any creative act,
in any creative process, whether it's figuring out how to
get fruit from a really tall tree, or figure out
your next marketing strategy, or a new way home because
the road is blocked right, or painting, it's this toggling
between wonder and rigor to solve problems. And if we
(22:18):
begin to think of that more democratized way of creativity,
then we was the best engineers and scientists and executive
assistants and teachers and farmers and plumbers and artists are
super creative, but only when they're intentionally doing this engagement
between wonder and rigor.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Yeah, wonder. It's such a great thing.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
I remember just in the course of a career in broadcasting,
there's a term we use called surprise and delight, which
is always a nice thing to bring to the audience
occasionally and give them an idea that maybe they didn't
have in their head before. Paul is calling in from Houston, Texas. Hi, Paul,
welcome to the middle.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
Go ahead. Why do you create?
Speaker 17 (22:57):
Hey, guys, how you doing? Thank you so much for
having me on. First of all, I want to say,
whoever your guest is that wrote the book, who's using
the neuro linguistic programming in the back system. I'm super
impressed and I can't wait to get this book and
see it and play with it. It sounds like it's
so much fun.
Speaker 18 (23:13):
My comment on why I create, I believe it's the
answer for what humanity is in its essence, and that
is why we the question of asking why.
Speaker 17 (23:26):
And I want to add on to that, that to
the young lady who was talking a moment ago, and
add in that there's a really good head.
Speaker 19 (23:35):
Talk that is from from the woman who wrote Eat, Pray, Love,
and it's it's talking about our elusive genius and how.
Speaker 17 (23:46):
Much that's so outside of ourselves. Like when you go
back into the past, the genius was a sprite, something
that came in in the middle of the night and
kind of finished the cobbler's shoes, if you will. So
I think on some level I love the idea of
what she was talking about, how rigor is part of
(24:06):
the process. I love that. I love how what that's
really kind of saying that, Yeah, you can have an idea,
you can have an intention, but without any actual work
with within it. What do you have nothing but an idea?
Nothing but an intention? And then somebody else does it.
My last comment here is I use AI every single day.
(24:27):
I'm known as the Biden robo call magician, unfortunately because
of a client. And since then, I've written nine books,
I've put out tons of content. I have an AI influencer,
she has music videos. I have put out my own
musical that's one of the only musicals that's in the
(24:48):
American Writers Guild.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
So do you think AI is good for creativity? Yeah, okay, all.
Speaker 17 (24:56):
Right, one hundred percent. I think that what it is
is that it gives you the ability to be the conductor,
be the producer like a Michelangelo or a bank seat.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Oh wow, Michael Landel, Okay, let me go to Duncan
wardle on that. Because we heard from Natalie about AI,
artificial intelligence and creativity.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Dougan, what do you think.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
I know that you've written that it actually can be
quite useful and may free us up to be more imaginative.
Speaker 9 (25:22):
Well, I think when Natalie started, she said seventy five percent.
I've done these surveys of many companies, but you're right
over seventy percent of the employees when asked what's the
biggest baron to being more innovative and creative where I
work is I don't have time to think. And simply
by giving time to think right where you are, when
you're in the shower, when you have your best study,
AI is about to give us time to think. And
(25:43):
I'll make a prediction for about one hundred and fifty
years from now. When we were small kids, we used
to remember the phone numbers of everybody we knew, and
now we don't remember any because the iPhone has got
it for us. So our brain is like a hard
disk and we've opened up a little bit more of
time to think. Well, eventually, I can't tell you exactly
how far away it comes to neuralink. And at some
point our children or grandchildren will have a neural link.
They'll be walking wikipedias. But at that point we will
(26:07):
be cap full of infinite thoughts. We will not compete
with AI. We will as we take on more prosthetic parts,
prosthetic limbs, hearing cataract surgeries. Our heart is a pump.
They're going to figure it out at some point. As
we seek everlasting life, a longer, better healthy, we're going
to become a secondhand car. We don't take up parts,
but we will not compete with AI. We will merge
with AI to become superhuman race. AI will bring in
(26:29):
the algorithms, and we'll bring in the most uniquely things
to us creativity, imagination, and for the intuition and curiosity.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
If we can find the electricity to power AI things
for us. Tolliver, what are people writing in online?
Speaker 4 (26:44):
So I'm just still gobsmacked. I want to be a superhuman,
Larissa says. Your guest mentioned the education system training the
creativity out of us. I play one of my favorite
songs from my kids to encourage them in their daydreaming.
Ian from Charleston says, I create to have fun, whether
it's drawing geared driven clocks or making YouTube videos about that.
And I just had a question. So I was talking
(27:07):
to a frien yesterday about happiness, about how happiness is fleeting.
But when I make art, I feel like I have
some value. So I don't chase happiness. I chase sort
of like value myself. So I just wanted to pose
that to our guests. Maybe Natalie, can you talk about
that idea of art as protective m.
Speaker 10 (27:24):
Yeah, so and I And again, I don't conflict creativity
with art. I think artists are excellent at wrestling with
the ambiguity of the creative process of wrestling with that
talking between wonder and rigor. But your your your point
about about the value that that that is imbued and art,
I think because art makes manifest something that was once
(27:45):
internal to us, something that was just kind of we were, uh, couldn't, couldn't, couldn't, couldn't.
Speaker 8 (27:52):
We had to get it out of us in some way, right.
Speaker 10 (27:55):
And sometimes it's through music, and it's just through movements,
sometimes just through words. Sometimes it's through tinking. Sometimes it's
just for example, you know.
Speaker 8 (28:03):
I made up my job title.
Speaker 10 (28:05):
I'm a creativity strategist.
Speaker 8 (28:06):
I did a.
Speaker 10 (28:07):
Mashup between two dimensions of my work and myself that
I love and that I'm excellent at. And I've made
manifest something that wasn't real eight years ago. Right, that's
a creative process. So that's the value that it gives.
Art is something that versus design, that we're not going
to commodify.
Speaker 8 (28:27):
It exists for its own sake.
Speaker 10 (28:29):
It exists for open interpretation, you know, getting back to
the comments about education, one of the things that I
love about artists is their ability to.
Speaker 8 (28:39):
Say I don't know.
Speaker 15 (28:40):
So if you go to an open studio, or you
meet the choreographer after a work in progress, or meet
the artists and you.
Speaker 10 (28:47):
Ask them, gosh, this is so cool, like what are
you thinking about next? Where's is headed? And they'll say,
you know, I don't really know. And that ability to
fall in love with the process is part of the value,
which would you say, Tolliver, let.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Me let me just we're running up close to a
break here, but let me just follow up briefly Natalie
by saying, bringing this into what's happening in the world,
right now, which is that there are big cuts happening
to arts education, There are big cuts happening to education
in this country. Is that going to negatively impact our
ability to be creative?
Speaker 9 (29:18):
Can I go that one? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:19):
Yeah, duck you go, but it's only about thirty seconds.
Speaker 9 (29:21):
Go ahead, Okay, all right? Who are the most creazy
people you've ever met? Who are they?
Speaker 3 (29:27):
There are so many? I don't know.
Speaker 9 (29:28):
Yeah, who are they? They were around you every single day? Children?
How much money? How much money? They go? Yeah?
Speaker 10 (29:35):
Okay, so yeah, Sir Ken Robinson, your your home, your homeland.
Speaker 8 (29:40):
Brother, brother duncan talk.
Speaker 10 (29:42):
It's been his whole life's work talking about how we
burn the creativity out of children over time.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, uh okay, Tolliver, I hereby give you another chance
to inspire us with the words of a brilliant creative American.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
Who will it be is the late great poet and
author Maya Angelou, who explained her creative process in a
PBS American Master's documentary.
Speaker 20 (30:05):
Everybody in the world uses words, uses, how are you fine?
Speaker 21 (30:10):
Thank you?
Speaker 20 (30:12):
Verbs and verbs, adjectives, nouns, pronouns. The writer has to
take these most known things and put them together in
such a way that a reader says, I never thought
of it that way, thoughts. It's a challenge, and I
know many writers and I'm one, says loud. Are you
(30:33):
sure you wanted me to do this?
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Wow? What an amazing clip.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Tolliver, Yeah, honestly. I mean I've admired Maya forever and
you know she lives on in all of us.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
And we've got more of your calls about creativity coming
up on the middle. This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
In this hour, we're asking you why and how do
you create? You can call us at eight four four
four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three three.
I'm joined by Natalie Nixon, president of Figure eight Thinking,
and Duncan Wordle, former head of Innovation and Creativity for
(31:07):
the Walt Disney Company. And the lines are full. Let's
go to Robin in Salt Lake City, Utah. Robin, go ahead,
Why do you create?
Speaker 7 (31:16):
Hi?
Speaker 22 (31:17):
You know I can't not create and this has just
been in me forever. But the thing is now, I've
been having a rough life and now the reason is
it's an outlet. It's a release, and it also helps
me to work through the problems. I can work through
(31:38):
the artistic process and work solving those and focus on that.
But somehow it's tying into my psyche. And I'm also
finding that when I relax enough and work through this stuff,
which is not always relaxing.
Speaker 3 (31:59):
By the way, usually though, is that is that your outlet?
Speaker 22 (32:04):
Well, yes, I write poetry, but I also do a
visual art. I do digital art currently though, and for
the last couple of years.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Mm hmm, Robin, great, great points there, Duncan you know
this is another theme we're hearing.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
It makes people happy and.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
It makes it relaxes people, helps them, you know, deal
with difficult things.
Speaker 9 (32:27):
Yeah. So when I was tasked, you know, the CEO said, listen,
you're going to be in charge of innovation and creativity
and my exact responsible what the hell is that? And
he said, well, we want to embed the culture of
innovation and creativity into everybody's DNA. So I said, out
to create a toolkit that has three principles, and that's
what's in the book. It takes the intimidation out of innovation.
That makes it accessible to normal, hard working, busy people.
(32:49):
It makes creativity tangible for those people who are nervous
of ambiguity great far more importantly, make it fun. If
you give people tools they choose to use when you
and I are not around, then you'll change a culture.
I want to try. I'm gonna try one more exercise
because I think it's this is perhaps the most important exercise.
We used to use a Pixar, Marvel, Lucasfilms, and Disney
because the more I experience, the more expertise we have,
(33:12):
the more reasons we know why the new idea won't work.
So we can't stantly shoot it down with phrases that no,
because you know we tried that last year. That's not
the way we do it here. So, Jeremy, I'm going
to come here with an idea for a Star Wars party.
We've got one hundred thousand dollars in the budget. I
want you to respond to each and every one of
my ideas with no because and tell me why not no,
(33:32):
because it'll be the first two words you use. So
I was thinking we come over to your studio and
we can have a cosplay party. All the tool people
could come as Vader and all the little people come
as e Woes.
Speaker 2 (33:41):
Now, because I think there'll be too many people here,
we're not gonna be where are they gonna where they're
going to park?
Speaker 9 (33:47):
All right? Well how about glow in the dark lightsabers
full of our favorite alcoholic liquid.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Well, no, because they're gonna be people that don't drink.
And also, like what if people aren't into Star Wars.
Speaker 4 (33:59):
They wouldn't under the would you show the movies and
give them free popcorn and cocacata?
Speaker 10 (34:05):
No?
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Because I just I think, why don't you go back
to the drawing board, duncan? I've done a good job
of saying no.
Speaker 9 (34:13):
Okay, so yes, so we'll stop there when somebody is
constantly saying no. Because to you, when you're throwing ideas,
how does that make you feel?
Speaker 16 (34:21):
No?
Speaker 3 (34:21):
It doesn't feel good at all?
Speaker 9 (34:22):
Right, okay? And you would you think our idea was
getting bigger or smaller as it was going on?
Speaker 3 (34:27):
Just then smaller?
Speaker 9 (34:30):
Okay? Natalie, you're up girl. Are you familiar with Harry Potter?
Speaker 10 (34:33):
I am, yes?
Speaker 9 (34:34):
Okay, so I'm going to come at you some Harry
Potter party ideas. And like Jeremy who started with the
words no, because I'd like you to start each of
my response with the words yes, And there'll be the
first two words you used it and we'll just build
it together. So I was thinking, right, I could come
to your house. We could put the sorting hair outside
the front door. All the good people get the griffind
door party and all the bad people get the dark
mysterious slythering party.
Speaker 10 (34:55):
Yes, and we could even build desserts around this thing.
Speaker 8 (34:57):
That would be amazing.
Speaker 9 (34:58):
Ooh yes, and yes, we could do the Great bake
off and actually have desserts for Griffindoor and Slitherin and
a dark mysterious pie.
Speaker 8 (35:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (35:06):
And then what if we even added an gave it
fight a bit at a little competition and ask people
to vote for their favored dessert mashed.
Speaker 8 (35:15):
Up with the costume that really pairs off with.
Speaker 9 (35:18):
It really ooh yes? And okay, so we're going to
stop there. So a lot more energy, a lot more excitement,
a lot more laughter become the first time was our
idea getting bigger or smaller? Which way was it headed?
Big mask around there? Yeah? You could always take a
big idea of value engineer it down far more importantly,
we all have colleagues and clients to bring on board
(35:38):
with our ideas. By the time you and I just
finished building that idea together? Whose idea was it? By
the time we'd finished ours Ours two very simple words
from the word of improv that have a remarkable power
to take a small idea into a big one really quickly,
but far more importantly transfers the power of my idea,
which never goes anywhere inside an organization, to our idea
and accelerating its opportunity to get When somebody comes at
(36:01):
you with a new idea, don't let the first two
words out of your mouth be no, because just remind yourselves.
I know your responsibilities. I have deadlines called. We're not
green lighting this idea for execution today. We don't really
greenhousing it together using yes, duncan.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Jeremy let me Just because we've got so many calls,
I want to get to one of them. Moss is
calling from Charleston, South Carolina High Moss, go ahead with
your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (36:24):
How do you Why do you create?
Speaker 7 (36:27):
Hi?
Speaker 16 (36:28):
Thanks for taking my call. I create because it feels
almost like an instinctual need, similar to the last caller.
It kind of comes out of me and it's a
puzzle that you have to put together. It connects me
to the world around me. My feelings and what's happened.
But it also reminds me of my ancestry and human evolution,
(36:50):
Like prehistoric art is so cool and to me, it's
a way to continue that.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
And what do you do to create? How are you?
How do you what your creative outlet?
Speaker 16 (37:03):
Well, right now, I'm studying to be a tattoo artist
and just start an apprenticeship and I'm stoked for it.
I also love to dance and make music and go
to live shows. Music is probably my favorite outlet. And
I also like to write. I like to write songs
and poems.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Mm hmm Moss.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
And by the way, let me ask you one more question.
Do you do you find that the existence of social
media keeps you from being able to create?
Speaker 3 (37:28):
Or do you are you able to stay away from it?
Speaker 16 (37:31):
I try to stay away from social media because it's distracting.
It's a It's a good and bad thing because it
does give really good exposure to artists who need it,
but also you can be trapped into comparison game or
it because it's almost reliant to need social media to
be an artist these days and make money off it.
Speaker 3 (37:51):
Yeah, Moss, thank you very much, Natalie. Your thoughts here.
Speaker 10 (37:56):
Yeah, I just wanted to build on something that both
Robin and Moss mentioned and their responses about why they create,
and they both reference having an outlet. So to build
on Duncan's advice about becoming more improvisational in the ways
that we discuss ideas and problem solving within the workplace.
Speaker 8 (38:15):
One of the best things.
Speaker 10 (38:16):
That people can do to build their capacity for creativity
is to become a clumsy student of something outside of
work where they are not the smartest person in the room.
And what that begins to do is it actually begins
to activate something I call the three eyes. It activates inquiry, improvisation,
and intuition.
Speaker 8 (38:37):
So, for example, I've been.
Speaker 10 (38:38):
A clumsy student of ballroom dance for the past five years,
and because of that, I have to raise my hand
and admit I don't get what we're doing right now.
I have to intuit because typically the woman is the follower,
not always, and so I have to wait, I have
to be I have to really discern connection, and I
(38:58):
have to be much more experimental. And the first time
I realized this was carrying over into my work, it's
probably about three years ago. I probably been studying ball
rooms consistently for about a year. I was on a
call with a client and they were throwing around all
these oxymorons the ABC of X y Z, And I thought,
I have no idea what they're talking about. And I thought,
I'll probably not really stupid if I asked them what
(39:19):
they're asking what they're talking about. But because different neural
synapses had been strengthened in my clumsy student life, I
was a lot more braver about just asking, you know,
I'm sorry, what is the ABC of the X y Z?
And they kind of paused and they were like, actually, why.
Speaker 8 (39:35):
Do we call it that?
Speaker 11 (39:36):
Right?
Speaker 10 (39:36):
They didn't even remember why they had these oxymorons, And
the world did not come to a screeching halt because.
Speaker 8 (39:42):
I admitted ignorance.
Speaker 10 (39:43):
And the point is that when we are able to
exercise in other dimensions of our lives, this ability to
be creative, to practice wonder and rigor, it carries over
into the work.
Speaker 15 (39:57):
And I predict that in the future of work, the
companies that are going you're able to attract and retain
the best talent will be those that practice inside outwork,
that are curious about what makes us tick internally in
order to do our best work externally.
Speaker 2 (40:12):
But hearing another theme here asking questions an important part
of this collaborating with people, not saying no to two ideas,
letting people you know, have the time to think about
these things. You be is calling in from Aurora, Colorado.
You be Why do you create?
Speaker 21 (40:29):
Hey, Jeremy and DJ Tolliver and Nina Simpy, You guys,
I am create because that's kind of my place where
I recharge or try to recharge right now in the
middle of the news cycle and all the stuff that's
going on in popular culture. And so it's kind of
(40:51):
my way of making sense of the gray and trying
to understand it and to not be scared of it.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
And do you feel like it is you full in
your work or is it just an outlet for you
to relax, Like does it help you via you know,
make your living?
Speaker 21 (41:09):
Absolutely?
Speaker 10 (41:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 21 (41:10):
I actually left my job as an immigration paralegal and
started my own para legal consultancy afterwards because I saw
the opportunity to assist more attorneys and more legal teams.
And I also became an AI prompt engineer. So I
really listened to what one of your guests was saying
(41:32):
about how AI is very much a tool and is
only as good as a prompt that you give it.
And so I actually started like a session, a group
session with black women freelancers so that they could understand
that when you talk to chatchibuto, when you interact with it,
the more creative and specific you are with your prompts,
(41:53):
the better goal it pops out. And so it very
much creativity is is how I how I exist in
the world. I don't know any other way to not
be creative. Yeah that makes sense.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
Yeah, you'll be thank you very much for that, Doug,
and I kind of wonder we've heard from a lot
of people that go to art or that are artists,
but small business in this country is so driven by
the ability to be creative and think outside the box.
Speaker 9 (42:22):
Yeah. Look again, I can't paint, I can't dance, I
don't write poetry. Do I consider myself a creative person?
Speaker 14 (42:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (42:29):
But can I paint? Can I write music? And no?
Absolutely not. Have some mad ideas. I think sometimes it's
about breaking rules and I but what if what if
there's a tool to sort of metaphorically that Walt Disney
was a genius, right, he wanted to pump missed into
the theater during Fantasi wanted he pumped in and the theater,
and I said, no, Walt, that's not the way we
(42:50):
do it here. So Walt's step one. If you're working
on something next week, entrepreneur, for example, just write down
the rules of the industry in which you work. So
Walt wrote down the rules that go into a movie theater.
I must sit down it is dark, I must be quiet.
I must go at a set time. I Walt, can't
control the environment. So then you lit the rules. Don't
think about the more you start thinking all the reasons
(43:10):
you can't break them. Then pick one and ask the
most audacious, provocative, outrageous wars if question. The more outrageous
your WAAF question, the further out of your river of thinking,
your experiencing pertise, you'll jump. So he said, well what
if I could control the environment. Well he couldn't, and
that wasn't our rageous enough. So he said, well what
if I take my movies out of the theater? Now,
if you know the answer, you're ristrating. If you're if
it makes you nervous, you're innovating. So he said, well, well,
(43:32):
how are you going to do that? Well, the two
dimensional therefa all over. What if I made them three dimensional? Well,
how are you going to do that? Well? Well, what
if I just had people in costume? I get have
pirates and princesses and cowboys, but well you can't have
Cinderella standing yaks to Jacks Vara. Well what if I
put each of the characters in different land? Oh wait,
what if I call it Disneyland? Boom? We're done here. Now.
I know people listening will say, we don't have the
(43:53):
resources of Disney, and that's a very Of course you don't.
But I'll give you a tiny example because I want
you to know the talk can work for you too.
There was a time any company in Great Britain in
the late sixties they used to make glasses that we
drink out of. They found too much break kitchen and
enough production. So they went down to the shop floor,
observed that the industry, observed the process of where they were,
and wrote down the rules. Twenty six employees convey about
twelve glasses to a box, glasses separated by corrugated cardboard,
(44:16):
glasses wrapped in newspaper. Employees reading the newspaper, so somebody
asked the most absurd wassive question, or what if we
poke their eyes out? Well that's against the law and
it's not very nice. But because they had the courage
to ask the most absurd wossive question of all, the
ladies sitting next to him immediately jumped out of her river.
I think he said, well, wait a minute, what if
we just hired blind people? But actually, up twenty six percent,
break is down forty two percent a British government game
(44:38):
of fifty percent salary subsidy for hiring people with disabilities.
So it's not about breaking the rules. It's about breaking
the rules metaphorically. And again it's about giving people tools,
because we're all asked to get into a room and
have a brainstorm, but we don't teach people how to
do it.
Speaker 2 (44:52):
I feel like you've told that example before. In your career,
you got all the facts that see I was.
Speaker 9 (44:58):
A great rule breaker. People in Germany told they're not creative,
people in it are told they're not creative, people in
finance are told they're not all the creatives. I'm sorry,
I agree with Natalie, and clearly everybody's creative.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
Yeah, there's only one sentence from somebody. Ellen Nashville says,
When I create, it feels like I'm tapping into the
full human experience, reaching backwards and forests through humanity, and
I just creative response.
Speaker 2 (45:22):
Yes, I'm gonna I'm gonna sneak in one more call
here and it's going to be Alicia, who is in Irwin, Pennsylvania.
Speaker 3 (45:30):
Alicia tell us, why do you create?
Speaker 23 (45:34):
Well, I have a port photography studio. I had it
for forty five years and I was the only female
studio owner when I opened my studio. To me, photography
can be either a stiff image or a work of
art that depends on how the person behind the camera
(45:57):
is able to capture the essence of the subject that
comes with the posing, the lighting, knowing the rules but
not directing exactly how it has to be, but letting
the person act the way they feel like acting and
(46:20):
capturing the expression their soul.
Speaker 6 (46:23):
That to me is art.
Speaker 23 (46:27):
I always think that I click before I think before
I click, because just to capture the image, I need
to make sure that I have what I want to
get in front of my camera. Now, to me, AI
(46:50):
is a tool the same way that my camera is
a tool. It allows me to create even more. But
that is if I am in charge, if I let
Ai do it for me, that's not art. That is
just something stiff that any machine or any can do it.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Alisa, a great point to end on. I really appreciate
your call. Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
And Natalie, I'm gonna.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
I'm gonna, just because we just heard from somebody who's
been a pro photographer for forty five years, I'll give
you the last word here. What would your advice be
to people who are older about how to stay creative?
Speaker 10 (47:37):
I might As I listened to Lisa, I was thinking
about the American dancy choreographer Twila Tharp, who in her
great book The Creative Habit, said that before you can
think out of the box, you must start with a box.
Speaker 8 (47:48):
You must know the rules so that you can break them.
Speaker 10 (47:51):
And you would ask earlier about examples of business. When
I think about what a President Obama did with the
way he the micro fundraising campaign he introduced into political fundraising,
that was a creative act.
Speaker 8 (48:02):
What the way Airbnb got started.
Speaker 10 (48:04):
So for older people, it's just new rules to learn
so that you can break them. So getting really curious,
taking workshops, going to webinars and listen.
Speaker 8 (48:13):
I'm a gen xer.
Speaker 10 (48:14):
I guess I'm solidly middle aged. So I'll put my
generation to that bucket of needing to be open to learning,
being more curious than certain right, so that we learn
new rules and they get excited about how all the
ways we can start to break them, which is a
creative act.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Well, I want to thank both of you. Natalie Nixon,
president of Figure eight Thinking. Her new book is called Move, Think, Rest,
and Duncan Wordle from her head of innovation and creativity
for the Walt Disney Company. His book is called The
Imagination Emporium. Great to have both of you on. Thank
you so much, Thank you, thank you, and don't forget
to subscribe.
Speaker 3 (48:48):
To our podcast.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
We've got extra episodes available every week only on the
Middle podcast feed. Next week we're going to be back
here with a more political topic, asking you for your
thoughts about President Trump's use of the National Guard in
cities around the country. We're going to be broadcasting live
from Las Studios in Los Angeles, the first city where
they were deployed back in June.
Speaker 4 (49:06):
Our number is eight four four four Middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can reach us at listen to the Middle dot com,
where you can also sign up for our free weekly
newsletter and send us your ideas for future show topics.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and Urbana Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmistas, John Barth, An Akadeshler,
and Brandon Condritz.
Speaker 3 (49:25):
Our technical director is Steve mork. Thanks to our.
Speaker 2 (49:27):
Satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and the hundreds of
public radio stations that are making it possible for people
across the country for the last two years now to
listen to The Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Speaker 3 (49:37):
I'll talk to you next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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