December 12, 2025 • 50 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we're asking if "going green" matters to you, even as the Trump administration is phasing out incentives to do so. Jeremy is joined by Joseph Romm, Senior Research Fellow at the University of Pennsylvania’s Penn Center for Science, Sustainability and the Media and Heatmap News Executive Editor Robinson Meyer. DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus calls from around the country. #EV #greenenergy #goinggreen #solar #solarpanels #renewable #DOE #Trump
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
the show and from you. Thanks for making a donation
at listen toothmddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
I'm Jeremy Hobson, our DJ Tolliver is here as well.
And Tolliver, I believe you are filling up your online
shopping cart with solar panels before the tax credits expire.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
If only I can drive to get them home. Man,
I got to figure that one out first. Need a
solar vehicle.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
You got to learn how to drive.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
I know Tolliver doesn't drive if for those of you
don't already know that, but that is what we're talking
about this hour. Going green, whether that means going solar
at home, using an electric or hybrid car, getting a
heat pump instead of heating your home with oil or gas,
or even being conscious about your packaging or you're recycling
or other things like that. A lot of the government
(00:52):
incentives to go green are going away because of the
so called Big Beautiful Bill that Republicans and the Trump
administration passed in July. Tax credits for electric and hybrid
vehicles went away a few months ago, and home energy
incentives expire at the end of this month. The Trump
administration says it's doing this because it wants taxpayers to
(01:14):
stop subsidizing what it considers unreliable sources of energy like
solar and win. But this show is about you. We
want to know whether going green matters to you, even
if the government isn't going to help you do it.
You can call in with your thoughts at eight four
four four middle that's eight four four four six four
three three five three, and we'll get to those in
(01:34):
a moment. But first, last week on the show, we
asked about the state of your economy. So many calls
and here are some of the voicemails that came in.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Hello, this is Stratton Munson. I'm from Angleton, Texas, and
I don't understand why people think that one president, whether
it's a Democrat or republic can control this and somehow
bring prices down. It's just not going to happen.
Speaker 6 (01:58):
Hi, my name is Carolyn and I'm calling from Milwaukee.
We hear about wage increases are going up. We're also
hearing about grocery prices going up on average like thirty
percent they're saying year over the year. Besides that, I
don't know anyone I know who has gotten a thirty
percent pay raise in the last I mean, shoot, now,
ye'ar not five years?
Speaker 7 (02:18):
Hi, Jeremy Linda Cooper from Wyoming and your previous caller
talking about prices. I would just want to say that
shopping has become a religious experience for me. Every time
I look at a price tag, I go Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
The same girl's name, love her. Thanks to everyone who
called in.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
As always, you can hear that whole show by subscribing
to the Middle wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So now to our topic this hour. Does going green
matter to you? Tolliver? How can people reach us?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five
three where you can write to us at listen to
the Middle dot com or comment you know anywhere we're
on social media.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
All right, joining us this hour, Robinson Meyer, funding executive
editor of heat map News.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Rob great to have you on the show, be here,
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
And Joseph rome Is with US, Senior Research Fellow at
the University of Pennsylvania's Pen Center for Science, Sustainability and
the Media.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Joe, welcome to you as.
Speaker 8 (03:12):
Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Well, let me start with you, Rob, because you've been
covering every detail of what's been happening at the federal level.
How has the landscape changed when it comes to green
energy incentives since the Big Beautiful Bill since the summer?
Speaker 9 (03:26):
Yeah, absolutely, well, the Trump's administration and the current Congress
really significantly changed the landscape. I mean, they basically have
removed every kind of incentive that existed in federal law
to build or develop renewable projects or have businesses or
consumers just regular people buy electric cars. They've removed the
(03:50):
tax credit, They're in the process of removing the tax
credit for utility scale wind and solar developments that will
go away next year. As you mentioned earlier there they have.
The one Big Beautiful Bill Act removed is removing tax
credits for personal wind personal solar projects. At the end
of this year, and at the end of September, the
(04:11):
tax credits to buy a new or used ev expired
as well. So a lot of incentives that previously existed
to help people switch to less polluting vehicles or forms
of energy have gone away. I should say that there's
one policy that remained, which is and will remain in
the future, which is that the original law that established
these incentives was called the Inflation Reduction Act of pass
(04:34):
during the Right administration, and that included a tax credit
for developers to build batteries. That tax credit has stayed
on the book, so people keep getting thirty percent off
or bonus to build batteries. It's building wind and solar
projects to generate electrons for those batteries. Is no longer
getting a tax credit.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well, and as you said, buying electric cars or hybrids,
and Joe, I saw there was a big spike in
evs sales electric vehicle sales right before that tax credit ended,
and then a big drop right after, which makes you
think that these tax credits have been very important in
getting people to go green, buy hybrid by electric.
Speaker 10 (05:14):
Well, yeah, I mean you should think of these tax
credits as a way to make your energy more affordable, right,
That's what it's about.
Speaker 8 (05:23):
You know. The thing about electric vehicles is that the per.
Speaker 10 (05:26):
Mile cost of running an electric vehicle is like four
or five times less than that of a you know,
a guest hand car, and you know, for your solar
at home. I mean, the good news is you should
check first of all your state tax credits. Those are
(05:47):
still in effect, and it may be cost effective in
certain areas. And also, you know, based on what I
was checking, there is also the possibility of doing solar
leases because the ex crautor for leasing is in effect
for another year or so. But look, the purpose of
these tax credits was to help people manage higher electricity prices, right,
(06:12):
that was the purpose of it. Is why it was
called the Inflation Reduction Act. Maybe it wasn't you know,
as well named or well explained as it should have been.
But people's electricity bills have been going up, right, I
think you know if you have an electric you know,
if you keep track of your electric bills, you know
they've been going up. The other thing you may have
noticed going up in the last few months is natural
(06:33):
gas prices and right, so so if.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
You had solar on your home, you wouldn't be dealing
with with those increases that that you would be seeing
from your your home.
Speaker 8 (06:44):
Right, that's the.
Speaker 10 (06:45):
Purpose natural gas, Right, I mean the solar and you
know in DC my house has some solar panels on
it and it definitely moderates the prices, particularly in the summertime. Right,
that's when the Prince spikes the most. So, yeah, this
is all about affordability, and it's a great tragedy that
these have been yanked away.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Well, and what is it about rob for the Trump administration?
What are they saying?
Speaker 3 (07:09):
There are a lot of things that we cover all
the time that they're undoing things that Biden did because
they don't like President Biden and they don't think that
he made the right decisions, and they're undoing things. But
in this case, it's about more than that.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
What is the.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Rationale for taking away all of these credits and moving
the country back towards oil and gas and coal.
Speaker 9 (07:32):
Well, yeah, well, I would start by saying I wouldn't
underestimate the importance of kind of simple anti Biden sentiment
in driving the policies here. I think a number of
the policies that were taken away or struck from the
books in the One Big Beautiful Bill Act had been
policies that predated the Inflation Reduction Act in some way.
(07:52):
I'd call out the wind tax credit for instance, that
that policy has been largely bipartisan, goes back in some
formed nineteen nineties. It's been supported by members of both parties,
but because it received because it was changed in certain
ways or got more attention in the Inflation Reduction Act
(08:13):
under Biden. There does seem like there was particular energy
from the Trump administration to get it off the books.
And I do think that's, frankly as tied to the
fact that it Donald Trump personally wanted that tax credit
to go away as anything else, and they think actually
a number of policies that were removed in the One Big,
Beautiful Bill Act probably would have stayed under a different
(08:35):
president with different goals. It's just that Trump really was
focused on these climate policies. I will say broadly. You know, look,
the Trump administration kind of there's two things you hear
from them. The first is that they say winded solar
are you know, infrequent, They only generate electricity during some
type times of the day, and so therefore they don't
(08:56):
want to subsidize those I would be remiss not to mention.
At the same time that you know, it's been reported
that Donald Trump did meet with oil executives before he won,
before his campaign begun and said, if you make a
big donation to my campaign, I'm going to help out
your industry. And we've seen and they did make a
big donation to his campaign, and now he's helping them out.
Speaker 7 (09:19):
And so.
Speaker 9 (09:21):
I think that there's a number of different potential reasons
here that the Trump you know, the trump'sgistration and congressional
Republicans made these decisions. But I actually would not rule
out vindictiveness, Joe.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I want to get to one other thing before we
start going to callers, just to bring this up as
part of this discussion, which is things that don't require
tax credits that people do to go green, and that
would be, you know, reducing food waste or packaging waste
or recycling. How important are those things and are people
(09:54):
in the United States doing them more or less than
they used to?
Speaker 10 (09:59):
Well, the United States is, compared to the number of countries,
not the best at recycling, and we're particularly bad at
recycling plastic. And I think a lot of that is
simply the the you know, the oil industry. The oil
industry has seen the growing concern about climate change and
the fact that there were policies being adopted to make
(10:20):
cars more fuel efficient and the like, and so one
of the product lines that they have wanted to increase
is plastics, right, petrochemical plastics, and yeah, we we don't
do a good job of recycling. I don't think it
would be hard for us to match some of the
better countries in the world. But you know, it is
something that unfortunately has been I would just say, undermined
(10:45):
by you know, the major the major oil companies who
don't want to make it easy to return bottles.
Speaker 8 (10:51):
It used to be.
Speaker 10 (10:51):
You may remember, uh, yeah, you're you're, you're you're of
my closer to my age, I think, And and you
remember when that you can get your bottle built bottles,
you know, back right for the bottles.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Did they even make nickels anymore? I know they stopped
making pennants, but yes, I do.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I do remember that.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I will say, by the way, as we as we
prayer to go to calls, our number is eight four four.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Middle eight four four four six four three three five three.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
And we do want to hear from you, even if
it doesn't matter to you to go green, but if
it does matter to you, we want to hear from
you as well. Give us called eight four four four
Middle Tolliver. One of the arguments against spending money on
renewable energy is that other countries may.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Not be doing it.
Speaker 8 (11:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
President Trump has pointed to coal plants being opened in China.
Here he is speaking back in April, that.
Speaker 11 (11:38):
China is opening two plants every week. Germany went to green,
very green. They went so green they almost went out
of business. They Germany was finished. They went to wind.
The wind wasn't blowing too much, and they went to
all sorts of other things.
Speaker 12 (11:55):
You know.
Speaker 11 (11:56):
The green news scam hit Germany too, And guess what
now they're back to cole. They're opening up coal plants
all over Germany were the ones that aren't doing it.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Important to note that Germany did restart some coal plants
to deal with an energy crisis when the Ukraine War started,
but has since shut them back down and remains committed
to phasing out coal.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
By the year twenty thirty. We've got your calls coming
up on the Middle.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically,
or maybe you want to meet in the middle. This hour,
we're asking if going green matters to you. Tolliver the
number again, please.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on all social media.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I'm joined by heat map News executive editor Robinson Meyer
and Joseph Rome, a climate expert at the University of Pennsylvania.
And Rob we just heard President Trump there talking about China.
How do a ma cans compare to say, China and
India when it comes to green energy.
Speaker 9 (13:04):
So I would say there's two totally different stories China.
What's happening with electricity in China is actually, I think
one of the most important and interesting energy story that's
stories that's happened this century, and it is extremely relevant
in the age of artificial intelligence. And that's because China
seemingly has the ability to add enormous amounts of energy
(13:26):
and electricity generation to its power grid, and it has
built an extremely, extremely capable and extremely large power grid.
So the President mentioned in that clip that China's building
coal plants. It is building coal plants. Last year actually
built it started to build one hundred gigawatts of coal,
which is a lot of electricity and at the same time,
(13:51):
it added three hundred more than three hundred gigawatts of
renewable electricity and especially solar. And so what's taking shape
in China is I think a fairly unintuitive to American
ears combination of like a hydro solar and coal powered grid.
And so China is simultaneously in the position of being
(14:13):
building more coal plants than the rest of the world
combined and also building more solar than the rest of
the world combined. I think it's driven by this by both,
you know, competition within the provinces and also this kind
of embrace from China's central government of building as much
energy as possible. You could add that some of this
(14:33):
is a lot of anxiety in China about being dependent
on oil. The country doesn't have very large oil reserves
in the same way say the US the Middle East does,
and so there's been a move to move to any
other kind of secure energy source. India a different story,
very coal dependent and kind of much more of a
traditional heavy pollution developing country story, although they are building
(14:55):
a fair amount of solar as well.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Well.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
And on the individual level that we're talking about this hour, Joe,
what do you say say to people who say I'm
not going to make a decision based on the environment
because other people are.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Not doing it.
Speaker 10 (15:06):
Well, I think the important thing to remember, and maybe
we don't say this enough, is that the price of
solar power has come down by you know, a factor
of ten in the past decade, and in the past
three decades has come down a factor of one hundred. Right,
Solar is in fact the cheapest form of electric.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Power, and not just because of government subsidies.
Speaker 10 (15:26):
No, no, no, not because so many you know, because
it's you know, it's been technology advantages, the way batteries
have come down in price. Right, certain technologies, because they're
small and modular, can come down a learning curve. Not
every technology can do this. But the important point is
that solar, wind and batteries this year in the United
(15:49):
States will be ninety seven percent of excuse me, ninety
three percent of all new electric generating capacity.
Speaker 8 (15:56):
And it's strictly as a matter of cost.
Speaker 10 (15:58):
Now, the purpose of the tax credits is that solar
has an high upfront cost. Right, It doesn't have any
fuel cost like natural gas boiler, you have to keep
buying natural gas.
Speaker 13 (16:09):
Right.
Speaker 10 (16:09):
The sun just keeps shining, so it's one upfront cost,
so it made sense, I think, you know from and
I worked in the Department of Energy for five years
and helped run the Office of Energy Efficiency nonobal Energy.
The idea was help people pay for the first costs
and then they would be free from these price fluctuations.
You may remember the price of natural gas over the
(16:29):
last twenty five years is skyrocket and drop down, and
it makes it very hard for anyone to do planning.
And now, of course we're exporting a lot of our
cheap natural gas. That's what liquefied natural gas. Those LNG
terminals are about. So if you export our cheap gas,
which the President wants to do, you're obviously going to.
Speaker 8 (16:47):
Make domestic gas prices higher. And that's exactly what's happening.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Let's get to the fundes.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Liz is calling in from Minneapolis. Liz, are you going green?
Does it matter to you?
Speaker 14 (17:00):
Hie?
Speaker 15 (17:02):
It matters a great deal to me. I'm actually an
environmental science high school teacher, and I really think that
everybody cares about having a clean and healthy and green environment.
I can't imagine there's very many people that don't care
about it.
Speaker 14 (17:20):
But it's with the removal of incentives like this that
makes it a rich person's game to be an environmentalist
and something that if you're struggling in other ways, it
becomes really difficult to prioritize something that seems abstract and
in the far future. So I think it's I'm so
(17:40):
upset about the removal of these incentives. I think it
makes it really difficult for ordinary folks to prioritize those
long term things for themselves and their families and their neighbors. Yeah,
and it's also yeah, I don't know. There was a
(18:01):
court case in Montana a couple of years ago held
versus the State of Montana where young people's food the
state and said that by giving incentives and not considering
climate change, giving incentives more to a classible fuel companies,
they were endangering their future, which was against the state constitution.
And I'm curious if your experts have any ideas on
(18:23):
any implications of that ruling from a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Thank you, Liz for that. I'll first of all ask
if either.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Of you know about that ruling and its and its effects.
Speaker 9 (18:36):
I can I can talk about it a little, I mean,
and I'm going to not be able to go much
farther than the collar.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Let me let me ask you this.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Then she brought up this this point that it's a
rich person's game, and I just wonder, as we're seeing
prices rise on so many other things right now, people
are having a difficult time affording the food that they're
buying at the supermarket, does that make it less likely
that people are going to want to do things that
would be good for the environment or even as we've
heard from Joe, good for the long term of their
(19:07):
financial health because they may be paying a lot less
for energy.
Speaker 9 (19:10):
Rob Well, I think absolutely. And I think we saw
that in the in the sales data earlier this year
for EV's, which is as soon as those tax credits
went away for EV's, you know, there was a surge
in EV purchasing in September as people rush to get
in before the deadline, and then in October, I think
EV sales fell thirty to fifty percent depending on the brand,
(19:33):
which is in line with what we've seen around the world.
When you pull out EV tax credits like this, or
incentives or subsidies in some ways, you know, you do
see sales fall. And I think that that's exactly the
situation we're talking about, right that that as soon as
as soon as people have to make a trade off
between you know, it's it's EV's are at the point.
(19:55):
You know, Joe was talking about how many might be
cheaper on a per mile basis. I can say, I
think that does depend on whether you can charge at home.
I live in an apartment in the city. I can't
charge at home, and I would rely on on chargers.
But I think evs depend you know, there's still often
expensive upfront on an upfront basis, even if they're then
(20:16):
cheap to charge, and in order to make that large
upfront purchase, you know, you do need help. Yeah, and
that was part of the rational for the tax credits.
Speaker 8 (20:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
I saw somebody at the Whole Foods near me has
a free electric vehicle charger right in the front, and
there was a guy in his Tesla sleeping. I don't
think he was a customer. I think he just came
there charged for free the other day.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It tells you about, you know, the need for that.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Susan is calling in from Canyon County, Idaho. Susan, go ahead,
are you going green? Does it matter to you?
Speaker 16 (20:48):
Absolutely? I'm a retired grandma, So my dollars are not
that many, and they matter, But I've been able to
go green for years. I at the end of the
first Trump administer I was able to acquire a gently
used second generation EV without the credit, but the savings
(21:08):
from the depreciation from the desler got me a brand
new car with only one thousand miles on it, and
it's been in a June. And I've been working on
the idea of rooftop but I've always been ineligible due
to my home being manufactured, never has been eligible for
these credits. But I've been watching the plug in solar phenomenon,
(21:31):
the balcony plug in solar panels that are so popular
in Europe, and apparently we have a couple of companies
here that have been selling them for a few years.
But this year my neighboring state of Utah passed a
law to make them absolutely legal and to compel the
utilities to allow these devices that do not even have
to cycle the power back into the grid. They can
(21:55):
turn themselves off when they reach an excess situation. So
now I'm reading since then that love was passed in
March or so that China is now interesting in entery
in our market, which I think a little competition will
make ours manufacturers want the car.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Interesting point, Yeah, Susan, thank you very much for that, Joe.
It brings up the question of whether the private sector
without these credits is going to still keep moving in
the direction that it had been, and that could be
solar companies or electric companies or car companies that have
already been kind of becoming more green.
Speaker 10 (22:34):
Well, I think, look, the good news is that, and
I think it's important for all your listeners understand. Electric
vehicles have become the winner in essentially every major country
in the world, and.
Speaker 8 (22:48):
It's slower here for a couple of reasons.
Speaker 10 (22:50):
One, we have policies like you know that are posing
or slowing their use. And second, people drive like twice
as far here as they do in other country. But
in much of Europe and China, you know, these are
not only the fastest growing, but they're coming down in price.
And I think most Americans will see, you know, within
(23:12):
a few years that these cars are actually either the
same price or cheaper, but they're much easier to maintain.
They have far fewer moving parts, right, so their pair
bills are considerably lower. Again, the promile cost is considerably lower,
and the performance is just you know, this is a
car that can accelerate you know, zero to sixty in
(23:33):
a couple of seconds. And you know, as we move
towards making our cars much more electronic platforms, it just
makes sense to have, you know, large electric batteries on
board the car. Otherwise you have to run it off
the gasoline engine, which is incredibly inefficient. So you know,
the future is electric cars. And that's sort of one
of the tragedies of eliminating the tax credits. The tax
(23:56):
credits were as much to help the auto industry make
the transition to these cars that are going to dominate
the marketplace in the twenty thirties. Right, they're just going
to take over.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Even still they think they still will.
Speaker 10 (24:10):
Toyota is about to within two or three years, toy
is going to introduce Toyda has introduced a fifteen thousand
dollars electric vehicle in China, right, And I think you're
going to see Toyda introduce like twenty different models all
by itself in the next two or three years. And
I think you're going to see the affordability of these
(24:31):
vehicles and you know, and again we continue the buildout
of electric chargers, right, and so that other issue of
am I going to be able to get a charger
and all.
Speaker 8 (24:40):
That, all of that is being addressed.
Speaker 10 (24:42):
And like I said, I think that there's no real
stopping you know, electric vehicles.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
I saw somebody a friend just posted a cross country
road trip in an electric vehicle with the stops all
the way from Montana to Florida and was able to
make it all the way across with the charging stations necessary. Tolliver,
what is coming in at Listen to the middle dot com.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, we got a bunch of folks asking about the
role of AI in this discussion, especially me, and then
also Laura Minnesota is opposed a really interesting questions. She says,
please ask your guests about the costs in public health
associated with fossil fuel energy, such as asthma, respiratory illness,
and cancer.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
So I positive.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Interesting question, Rob, you know, that is another cost that
is important to think about. What It's not just these
things don't happen in a vacuum.
Speaker 8 (25:29):
It's true.
Speaker 9 (25:30):
I mean I think when you look worldwide fossil fuels
or combustion from fossil fuels is responsible for like one
in five deaths worldwide because you know soot, particularly this
like very microscopic particulate matter that can that can pass
the blood bain barrier blood brain barrier and get stuck
in your veins is responsible for some huge share of
(25:51):
heart attacks in the US. I will say, we have
the Clean Air Act, we've catlytic converters in our cars.
It's not as, it's not as it doesn't have this
same mortality impact here necessarily, but in some neighborhoods it does.
Either those neighborhoods in your car, your your power plants,
or neighborhoods where a highway goes through.
Speaker 8 (26:10):
Uh.
Speaker 9 (26:12):
I think there was also an AI question, but I
don't want to leap ahead.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Well, and I'm gonna We're gonna get to don't you worry.
We will get to ailet.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Let's go to Scott, who's in Charleston, South Carolina. Uh Hi, Scott,
go ahead with your question or your or your thoughts
about this.
Speaker 17 (26:30):
Well, good evening. You were you were asking if I
believe in going green, as you say, absolutely, I cannot
think of one factor that is not beneficial regarding solar power.
Uh in particular. And I think Ai and and what
(26:50):
we're seeing and reading in the news regarding the consumption
of electricity uh as Ai comes along is just massive.
Uh the the electric rates are already continually rising through
you know, the utility companies. A solar power is is
(27:16):
it's the it is a saving grace and it's it's do.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
You think it'll be enough, though, Scott, to power the
future if there's going to be all these data centers
for artificial intelligence?
Speaker 17 (27:31):
The question isn't whether it's enough because the utilities aren't
going anywhere. Generation you know, generation of power is not
an issue as to only sell you know, only coal
or only solar or only wind. It's a confluence of
(27:51):
all the above. And it's ignorant to cut out. In
my opinion, it's it's it's just silly to cut out
solar power when the pros outweigh the cons is such
an incredible degree. Yeah, you know, they use the consumption
(28:12):
of energy and electricity is not diminishing, and prices are
not coming down, regardless of what anybody doesn't. Thanks, prices
never come down.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Right when we talked about that all last week on
the show, Actually, Scott, but thank you for that, call
Joe your thoughts about that that will need solar, but
we'll also need other sources of energy to power the
AI future.
Speaker 10 (28:36):
Well, this is something I've studied a great deal of written.
I wrote a report earlier for the University of Pennsylvania
Center for Science, Sustainability and Media.
Speaker 8 (28:44):
I just.
Speaker 10 (28:46):
Gave was on a webinar panel for the National Academy
of Sciences on this subject.
Speaker 8 (28:52):
Here's the thing to realize.
Speaker 10 (28:53):
The data is now very good that the closer you
are to a data center, the more likely it is
that the wholesale price of electricity around you, and therefore
the retail prices are going to go up. Right, The
data is now very good at that We're in this
very bizarre world where six or seven of the most
successful companies the United States are all trying to do
(29:14):
exactly the same thing, and they all and and and
so we're getting the staggering duplication of people trying to
get data centers built. And every single one of the
you know, grid operators, has this huge list of companies
that says, we want to build a data center, and
(29:35):
so they're making these projections. We have to build all
of these power plants and that is simply, you know,
going to drive up everyone's utility rates, and I urge
people to be very you know, skeptical.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Well, toll of our electric vehicles, as we've heard, are
a big part of this conversation, and for our gen
Z listeners, Tesla was not the beginning of that.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
Yeah, First we had hybrid cars, especially the Toyota Prius,
which came to the US in the early two thousands,
along with this commercial in which you can hear oil
Derek's sprouting legs and walking away.
Speaker 18 (30:07):
There's a change happening that begins with Prius, Toyota's revolutionary
hybrid vehicle and continues with law vehicles rated most fuel
efficient in their class than any other brand. Transportation has
finally evolving.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Okay, telever, did you hear how he said is finally evolving.
That was Jeff Goldblum who was in that commercial, and
he stressed that word evolving because back then he was
famous for knowing a lot about evolution. In the original
Jurassic Park movie, remember him, He's like, you spent so
much time thinking about whether you should You didn't think
(30:51):
about whether you could whether you should should? Yeah, I
gotta get my Jurassic Park lines down with be right
back with more of your calls coming up on the middle.
This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're
asking if going green matters to you. I'm joined by
Joseph Rome, senior Research fell at the University of Pennsylvania's
(31:11):
Pen Center for Science, Sustainability in the Media, and heat
Map News Executive editor Robinson Meyer. Our number is eight
four four four middle. That's eight four four four six
four three three five three. And again, if you aren't
interested in going green, I do want to hear from you.
It doesn't just have to be people who are interested
in going green, rob I want to get to one
thing that's been in the news that does connect to
(31:31):
this conversation, which is Bill Gates made headlines in October
when he kind of backed off the doomsday view of
climate change and talked about climate exaggeration. What is the
significance in your mind of that. Are people just burnt
out from hearing that if they don't do X, Y
or Z, the planet's going to die?
Speaker 9 (31:50):
I think that where I took so Bill Gates put
out of memo in October as you were saying that
that he said three. It was called three tough Truths
on Climate or something, and I went to was a
number of journalists who kind of heard him speak about
the memo. I would say that my takeaway from the
memo was was less that he thinks there's been exaggeration
(32:12):
of kind of what climate might do in the near
term or in the long term, and more that what
he's observed in the Trump administration, but frankly, also from
Western European governments, is that there has been a defunding
of kind of traditional public health and development programs across
the planet. I think the most significant would be USAID,
(32:36):
and it's defunding of PEP far that the giant HIV
prevention program in Africa, and I think for Gates, whose
money has gone you know two kind of splits his
philanthropy between public health and climate. The memo was almost
a signal to climate groups that like, look, as long
(32:56):
as there is this total destruction of public health money,
I'm going to fund public health first, because that's what
I think is most important in your term.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Imagine having those choices. What can I do with my billiness?
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Yeah, Sidarius is calling in from Nashville, Tennessee. Does growing
green matter to you, Sidarius?
Speaker 19 (33:17):
Yeah, going green actually matters to me because we can't
extract resources from a planet forever without consequences. And I
feel like America would be so much farther in the
EB revolution if we didn't have certain industries and certain
companies that depended on their profits so wholeheartedly that any
(33:39):
new technology is seen as an exogential threat. I'm talking,
of course about the oil companies.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
And what about from your perspective, I mean, have you
yourself decided to go solar, get an EV or anything
like that.
Speaker 19 (33:53):
Well, I've definitely haven't gone solo or haven't gone EV.
But I have heard a very interesting article from about
how eating fish as opposed to well, eating chicken more
as opposed to eating fish or beefs can have can
actually reduce my carbon footprints. So I have been taking
that into account as opposed to I mean, also it's harge.
(34:13):
I just like eating more foods that is more sustainably
grown and locally grown in that spase, like, it's not
all has to be technology driven, so to speak. That
there are small habits that everyday people can do, like
changing to die or taking a walk or even going
back to carpooling.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, great points, Sidarius, Thank you very much. Joe. What
do you think about about that?
Speaker 3 (34:33):
And what would you say to our listeners who say,
you know, I can't afford right now to you know,
do these big technological advancements in my car or my home.
But I can do these other things, don't they matter?
Speaker 8 (34:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (34:45):
Well, look, I certainly would urge everyone who is concerned
about let's say they're electricity rates. Most local utilities have
programs to help you save energy.
Speaker 8 (34:56):
I don't know the utilities.
Speaker 10 (34:58):
Many utilities aren't so good at advertising, others are, but
generally you can they have rebates, and they have people
sometimes who will even you know, do an energy audit
of your home, look for where the heat is leaking out.
So yeah, I think, you know, the the easiest way
to lower your energy bill is is energy efficiency, right,
led lighting, more insulation, more efficient equipment of that sort.
(35:23):
So you know, I think people always have options to
address the situation. But you know, like I said, if
the government has flawed policies, that's just going to be
like an albatross, you know, or lead weight around everybody's neck.
And unfortunately that's the situation. You know we're in for
the next few years.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Gary is calling in from Philadelphia. Go ahead with your
thoughts about going green.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, I want.
Speaker 20 (35:48):
I wanted to speak to the epidemic of doomism of
most of our majority of our high school age kids
feeling we're screwed, it's too late, and why bother. And
just want to give one important fact that I hope
parents will convey through these cynical pessimistic kids that they
have and the teachers will convey. And here's the fact
(36:09):
that every one tenth of a degree we can prevent
from happening by accelerating the getting rid of fossil fuel
emissions and also includes a cat eating beef because cattle
produces cattle raising produces as much global warming gases via
methane as does driving cars. Every one tenths of a
(36:32):
degree we can prevent from happening will save the lives
of two hundred million people. It's more than half the
size of this country every year dying from floods, from droughts,
from disease, and from migration.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Every little bit counts. Gary, thank you for that. And actually,
since you bring up the young people, just so we
don't tarnish everybody with being a pessimist, because a lot
of young people that we hear from on this show
are quite optimistic about the future. We've got a thirty
one year old I'm going to count that as young
Cody in Kansas City is calling in. Tell you think, Tolliver,
that's young. Okay, Cody, go ahead, what do you think?
(37:10):
What do you think about what you just heard there?
Speaker 12 (37:13):
Well, first of all, I appreciate you take im the
young Jeremy. That's really a great to hear. Well, to
get to the original question, I think it's not just
important to me, it's essential to me and you know,
my friends my age who are just now having kids,
to ensure that we all have a livable future. What
we know about the climate crisis as it stands and
(37:37):
the feedback loops that are soon to be triggered if
we continue along this path of global warming, will really
create a planet that's not livable in my lifetime. So,
while I do think it's important to go green in
any capacity you can as an individual, I think the
(37:57):
best thing, and I would encourage your listeners to do,
is to talk to your neighbors and organize and mobilize
against specifically data centers as they pop up around the country.
Several in Kansas City are promising to use more energy
than the entire city produces, and the local utilities will
be opening new gas firing plants to accommodate for these things.
(38:21):
And this is happening all over the country. These tech
barons are trying to make hay while the sun is shining, aka,
while Trump is in office, and they're in the Oval
office with them. So talk to your neighbors, show up
to your city council meetings where these zoning conversations are happening,
where discussions about what incentives to give the richest companies
(38:42):
on the planet like Meta and Google to build these
data centers and rob you of your water and your
energy are happening and you can do something about it.
Talk to your community, plug in and do something.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, thank you Cody for that. Joe, you were nodding
along as he was talking talking about data centers and
organizing against them.
Speaker 10 (39:04):
Absolutely, look like I said, we're on path to overbuild
the data centers.
Speaker 8 (39:09):
There's no question.
Speaker 10 (39:10):
Look, AI is a very useful tool, but do we
need an AHI from you know, Meta and from Google
and from open Ai. You know and from you know,
several other countries companies. You know, I appreciate that everybody,
you know what doesn't want to be left behind. But
(39:31):
I think what we're going to do is be left
with a huge overbuild. And what happens is if you
build these plants and then it turns out you don't
need to use all of them, you are stuck with
this asset that the that the utility gets to charge
you for.
Speaker 8 (39:48):
Right, utility wants to build more power plants because that's
how it is able to raise your rates.
Speaker 10 (39:54):
Right, That's the way most utility regulations are done in
this country. So you know, I think that, yeah, I
urge people, and a lot of people around the country
are organizing locally to stop these data centers because yes,
as this caller said, they also soak up a lot
of water besides electricity, So you know, you don't want
to be left in a situation, and they don't generate
(40:15):
a lot of jobs.
Speaker 8 (40:16):
Yes, you have to construct.
Speaker 10 (40:17):
Them, right, but once you run them, once you have
them running, right, they're just a server farm, right.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
And you and if they're empty, I mean, how many
spirit of halloweens can you have in this country? There's
just not enough, not enough people, not enough costumes needed.
Danny is in Las Vegas. Danny, what about you? Are
just going green?
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Matter to you?
Speaker 19 (40:37):
All right?
Speaker 13 (40:38):
Yes, Danny, it definitely matters to me. I'm twenty five,
I'm a doctoral candidate in electrical engineering. I wanted to
make a quick comment about electrical vehicles, and we absolutely
need to move away from fossil fuel sources. But there's
a new foresight that needs to be put into our
solutions going forward that hasn't been in the past. In
a particular, mining for lithium and is very destructive and
(41:01):
in the Vata particularly will cause destruction of quite a
few unique wildlife refuges and water sources. So there are
better solutions that we might possibly need to consider, more
like hydrogen fuel cell cars which use smaller batteries overall,
in solutions for our transportation, and just this kind of
(41:23):
war thought that we didn't have before. In I know,
we need to move quickly, but we have to think
really long term, because if we do this wrong again
and we allow private interests to fores feed us electrical
vehicles and things that aren't good, it will be really
damaging to our children, to our lives due to our planets.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
So, Danny, very interesting points.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Actually, I'm glad you brought that up, Rob because just
because something is environmentally friendly compared to the alternative doesn't
mean it's environmentally perfect.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
And actually President Trump.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Has I mean, people laugh when he says this, but
he's talked about, you know, wind farms killing birds there.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
I know that there's been you know.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
A lot of of talk about wind farms in the
water in the ocean being harmful because of the how
does it affect whales and things like that. What about
some of the downsides environmentally of evs for example.
Speaker 9 (42:16):
Yeah, I have a colleague who says we shouldn't call
this will be a controversial statement, that we shouldn't call
solar and wind clean energy because they are zero carbon energy.
They're very important forms of energy, but we should just
describe what they are because people are going to say, oh,
I don't like this. I've heard that this mineral is
in them, and I don't like that aspect of it.
And I think to the extraction question, it's it's a
(42:39):
tough it's a tough one. And what I'd say is
that when you think about kind of what energy sources
require what level of extraction. The most extraction that's required
of any kind of form is actually for for gasoline, right,
So gasoline and oil require taking resources out of ground
(43:00):
continually in order to keep just filling up your tank.
In the middle, I would say, as evs and you know,
whether it's lithium, I would say that there's been progress
recently and moving from EV batteries that require cobalt and
other particularly hard minerals, to get to what are called
LFP batteries which require iron maybe more common minerals. The
(43:23):
energy source that actually requires the least amount of extraction
is going to sound funny to maybe the old school
environmentalist in the group, which is nuclear. Although uranium mining
can be quite locally destractive, it actually requires the least
amount of extraction per unit of energy created. I think,
(43:43):
you know, the the challenge here is that any form
of any kind of industrial development is going to require
some form of some form of extraction, some form of mining.
And there we can have arguments, and there are discussions,
and there are you know, political battles. As the color
(44:04):
was referencing to whether it will happen in the US,
I will say it the US is not the only
entity that gets to cast a vote, and Americans are
not the only entity that gets to cast a vote.
Kind of about where minerals are extracted and and China
has been very successful, for instance, in operating minds extracting
these minerals across the world. And I think that if there,
(44:28):
you know, without weighing in on any one project, the
track record for minds that are domestically in the US
has been better than those operated abroad.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Tolliver, let's get another comment from listening to the middle
dot com.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
Sure Lubo says, I will add one more alternative alternative,
fix the leaks in your house. There's a German idea
for passive houses that lets you live comfortably with little electricity.
And we continue to push energy through the cracks and
must sneak this last one in. Paul says, gentlemen, how
is the development of hydrogen engines for cars progressing that
we see high powered cars in the near future.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
I'm gonna hold that for another shore. I feel like
that's like I'm going to get one more caller in here.
Speaker 10 (45:08):
Well, I did, I should say, go ahead to write
a book called Okay, okay, fine, I take that back.
And I did run the hydrogen bro. Yeah, I don't
think hydrogen is really the future.
Speaker 8 (45:18):
I don't want to.
Speaker 10 (45:19):
You should do a whole you know show on some
of these other technologies. But yeah, I think electricity is
the winner because in order to have a green hydrogen car,
you have to run the high make the hydrogen from
a renewable electricity anyway, and it's a very inefficient process.
So I think you know, the future is electric vehicles.
I don't think you know that. There's many experts who
would tell you different.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
All right, let's sneak in one more Wayne in Procter, Minnesota. Wayne,
does going green matter to you?
Speaker 19 (45:47):
Yes?
Speaker 21 (45:48):
I two years ago I bought electric vehicle because of
the Canadian fires. You know, I live up by the
loath and I just got tired of that. I also
have a hybrid water heater which has a heating changer
on top that's much more efficient and heating up.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
My hot water.
Speaker 21 (46:07):
So yeah, and I just other things I can do
to go more green.
Speaker 7 (46:10):
I will.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
And does it save you money? Oh?
Speaker 19 (46:14):
Yes?
Speaker 21 (46:15):
Also I can power my house off of my electric vehicle.
It has an adapter so I can actually plug it
into my house.
Speaker 12 (46:22):
Wow.
Speaker 21 (46:22):
And just those I got back up.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
You said that you did this because of the Canadian fires,
just because of the environmental things that you believe were
leading to those fires happening or what.
Speaker 21 (46:34):
Yeah, yes, and just the smoke that we got. We're
a lot closer to the Canadas and a lot of
other city and just all the smoke we're getting. I
got tired of it, and I thought, well, I'm going
to get electric vehicle at least going to drive around
and not make it worse, but also overall or helped
the environment. I'm using elect less energy, yeah, less fossil fuels.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
Yeah, I will Wayne. Thank you very much for that call, Joe.
It's interesting we've heard from so many people, whether they
are actually buying an electric vehicle or going solar or not,
they care and they're doing what they can.
Speaker 8 (47:14):
Absolutely.
Speaker 10 (47:14):
I think people often get this view that this isn't
popular because some of the people who oppose it, it's
a small group, but they're very noisy and they get
repeated a lot on social media. But yes, the overwhelming
majority of Americans support strong all of those tax credits
that got canceled, those have like seventy eighty percent public support.
(47:36):
So I think it's important to understand, as you heard
on this show, yes people are doing this, and you know,
you really do have opportunities to make to lower the
cost of your energy bills with sometimes with technology sometimes
you know, check for you know, yes, you can get
an energy audited house which will have an infrared detector
(47:57):
that will look where the heat is escaping or the
cold air is going in, and you can fix those
and that will make a very big difference at a
low cost.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
And Rob just last word to you briefly, do you
think that in the next ten years, depending on what
happens in our politics, that these kinds of tax credits
will ever come back.
Speaker 9 (48:15):
I do think they'll come back. I think they're very
likely to come back. And I actually think that it's
as much to do with America needing to maintain competitiveness
as anything else. You know, this year in China have
fifty one percent of new vehicle sales where electric. You know,
China is able to make electric cars for less than
thirty thousand dollars that have hundreds of miles of range,
and the rest of the world is very tired of
(48:37):
importing oil. You know, here in the US, we're blessed
with big oil reserves and we have relatively cheap gasoline.
The rest of the world is very tired of importing oil,
and they're very eager to import those vehicles. I think
in order to stay competitive, we're going to need an
ev strategy here in the United States.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
That is Robinson Meyer, the executive editor of heat map News.
We've also been speaking with Joseph Frome, senior research fell
at the University of Pennsylvania's Penn Center for Science, Sustainable
Ability and the Media. Thanks to both of you so
much for joining us.
Speaker 8 (49:04):
Thank you Ert, thanks for having us.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
And next week, Tolliver, we will be joined by two
longtime care giving experts. We're going to be asking if
you're ready to care for a loved one when that
time comes. Apparently one in four adults in the United
States is doing that right now.
Speaker 8 (49:21):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
You can reach us at eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can go listen or sorry, go to Listen
to the Middle dot com to subscribe to our free
weekly newsletter, which is now on substack.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
The Middal is brought to you by Longnock Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and Arbana, Illinois and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmastas, John barth On, A. Cadessler,
and Brandon Condritz. Our technical director is Steve Mork. Thanks
to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and the
hundreds of public radio stations that are making it possible
for people across the country to listen to the Middle,
I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
I will talk to you next week
Speaker 7 (50:00):
And
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
the show and from you. Thanks for making a donation
at listen toothmddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
I'm Jeremy Hobson, our DJ Tolliver is here as well.
And Tolliver, I believe you are filling up your online
shopping cart with solar panels before the tax credits expire.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
If only I can drive to get them home. Man,
I got to figure that one out first. Need a
solar vehicle.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
You got to learn how to drive.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
I know Tolliver doesn't drive if for those of you
don't already know that, but that is what we're talking
about this hour. Going green, whether that means going solar
at home, using an electric or hybrid car, getting a
heat pump instead of heating your home with oil or gas,
or even being conscious about your packaging or you're recycling
or other things like that. A lot of the government
(00:52):
incentives to go green are going away because of the
so called Big Beautiful Bill that Republicans and the Trump
administration passed in July. Tax credits for electric and hybrid
vehicles went away a few months ago, and home energy
incentives expire at the end of this month. The Trump
administration says it's doing this because it wants taxpayers to
(01:14):
stop subsidizing what it considers unreliable sources of energy like
solar and win. But this show is about you. We
want to know whether going green matters to you, even
if the government isn't going to help you do it.
You can call in with your thoughts at eight four
four four middle that's eight four four four six four
three three five three, and we'll get to those in
(01:34):
a moment. But first, last week on the show, we
asked about the state of your economy. So many calls
and here are some of the voicemails that came in.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
Hello, this is Stratton Munson. I'm from Angleton, Texas, and
I don't understand why people think that one president, whether
it's a Democrat or republic can control this and somehow
bring prices down. It's just not going to happen.
Speaker 6 (01:58):
Hi, my name is Carolyn and I'm calling from Milwaukee.
We hear about wage increases are going up. We're also
hearing about grocery prices going up on average like thirty
percent they're saying year over the year. Besides that, I
don't know anyone I know who has gotten a thirty
percent pay raise in the last I mean, shoot, now,
ye'ar not five years?
Speaker 7 (02:18):
Hi, Jeremy Linda Cooper from Wyoming and your previous caller
talking about prices. I would just want to say that
shopping has become a religious experience for me. Every time
I look at a price tag, I go Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
The same girl's name, love her. Thanks to everyone who
called in.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
As always, you can hear that whole show by subscribing
to the Middle wherever you get your podcast.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
So now to our topic this hour. Does going green
matter to you? Tolliver? How can people reach us?
Speaker 4 (02:46):
You can call us at eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five
three where you can write to us at listen to
the Middle dot com or comment you know anywhere we're
on social media.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
All right, joining us this hour, Robinson Meyer, funding executive
editor of heat map News.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
Rob great to have you on the show, be here,
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
And Joseph rome Is with US, Senior Research Fellow at
the University of Pennsylvania's Pen Center for Science, Sustainability and
the Media.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Joe, welcome to you as.
Speaker 8 (03:12):
Well, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Well, let me start with you, Rob, because you've been
covering every detail of what's been happening at the federal level.
How has the landscape changed when it comes to green
energy incentives since the Big Beautiful Bill since the summer?
Speaker 9 (03:26):
Yeah, absolutely, well, the Trump's administration and the current Congress
really significantly changed the landscape. I mean, they basically have
removed every kind of incentive that existed in federal law
to build or develop renewable projects or have businesses or
consumers just regular people buy electric cars. They've removed the
(03:50):
tax credit, They're in the process of removing the tax
credit for utility scale wind and solar developments that will
go away next year. As you mentioned earlier there they have.
The one Big Beautiful Bill Act removed is removing tax
credits for personal wind personal solar projects. At the end
of this year, and at the end of September, the
(04:11):
tax credits to buy a new or used ev expired
as well. So a lot of incentives that previously existed
to help people switch to less polluting vehicles or forms
of energy have gone away. I should say that there's
one policy that remained, which is and will remain in
the future, which is that the original law that established
these incentives was called the Inflation Reduction Act of pass
(04:34):
during the Right administration, and that included a tax credit
for developers to build batteries. That tax credit has stayed
on the book, so people keep getting thirty percent off
or bonus to build batteries. It's building wind and solar
projects to generate electrons for those batteries. Is no longer
getting a tax credit.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
Well, and as you said, buying electric cars or hybrids,
and Joe, I saw there was a big spike in
evs sales electric vehicle sales right before that tax credit ended,
and then a big drop right after, which makes you
think that these tax credits have been very important in
getting people to go green, buy hybrid by electric.
Speaker 10 (05:14):
Well, yeah, I mean you should think of these tax
credits as a way to make your energy more affordable, right,
That's what it's about.
Speaker 8 (05:23):
You know. The thing about electric vehicles is that the per.
Speaker 10 (05:26):
Mile cost of running an electric vehicle is like four
or five times less than that of a you know,
a guest hand car, and you know, for your solar
at home. I mean, the good news is you should
check first of all your state tax credits. Those are
(05:47):
still in effect, and it may be cost effective in
certain areas. And also, you know, based on what I
was checking, there is also the possibility of doing solar
leases because the ex crautor for leasing is in effect
for another year or so. But look, the purpose of
these tax credits was to help people manage higher electricity prices, right,
(06:12):
that was the purpose of it. Is why it was
called the Inflation Reduction Act. Maybe it wasn't you know,
as well named or well explained as it should have been.
But people's electricity bills have been going up, right, I
think you know if you have an electric you know,
if you keep track of your electric bills, you know
they've been going up. The other thing you may have
noticed going up in the last few months is natural
(06:33):
gas prices and right, so so if.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
You had solar on your home, you wouldn't be dealing
with with those increases that that you would be seeing
from your your home.
Speaker 8 (06:44):
Right, that's the.
Speaker 10 (06:45):
Purpose natural gas, Right, I mean the solar and you
know in DC my house has some solar panels on
it and it definitely moderates the prices, particularly in the summertime. Right,
that's when the Prince spikes the most. So, yeah, this
is all about affordability, and it's a great tragedy that
these have been yanked away.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Well, and what is it about rob for the Trump administration?
What are they saying?
Speaker 3 (07:09):
There are a lot of things that we cover all
the time that they're undoing things that Biden did because
they don't like President Biden and they don't think that
he made the right decisions, and they're undoing things. But
in this case, it's about more than that.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
What is the.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
Rationale for taking away all of these credits and moving
the country back towards oil and gas and coal.
Speaker 9 (07:32):
Well, yeah, well, I would start by saying I wouldn't
underestimate the importance of kind of simple anti Biden sentiment
in driving the policies here. I think a number of
the policies that were taken away or struck from the
books in the One Big Beautiful Bill Act had been
policies that predated the Inflation Reduction Act in some way.
(07:52):
I'd call out the wind tax credit for instance, that
that policy has been largely bipartisan, goes back in some
formed nineteen nineties. It's been supported by members of both parties,
but because it received because it was changed in certain
ways or got more attention in the Inflation Reduction Act
(08:13):
under Biden. There does seem like there was particular energy
from the Trump administration to get it off the books.
And I do think that's, frankly as tied to the
fact that it Donald Trump personally wanted that tax credit
to go away as anything else, and they think actually
a number of policies that were removed in the One Big,
Beautiful Bill Act probably would have stayed under a different
(08:35):
president with different goals. It's just that Trump really was
focused on these climate policies. I will say broadly. You know, look,
the Trump administration kind of there's two things you hear
from them. The first is that they say winded solar
are you know, infrequent, They only generate electricity during some
type times of the day, and so therefore they don't
(08:56):
want to subsidize those I would be remiss not to mention.
At the same time that you know, it's been reported
that Donald Trump did meet with oil executives before he won,
before his campaign begun and said, if you make a
big donation to my campaign, I'm going to help out
your industry. And we've seen and they did make a
big donation to his campaign, and now he's helping them out.
Speaker 7 (09:19):
And so.
Speaker 9 (09:21):
I think that there's a number of different potential reasons
here that the Trump you know, the trump'sgistration and congressional
Republicans made these decisions. But I actually would not rule
out vindictiveness, Joe.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
I want to get to one other thing before we
start going to callers, just to bring this up as
part of this discussion, which is things that don't require
tax credits that people do to go green, and that
would be, you know, reducing food waste or packaging waste
or recycling. How important are those things and are people
(09:54):
in the United States doing them more or less than
they used to?
Speaker 10 (09:59):
Well, the United States is, compared to the number of countries,
not the best at recycling, and we're particularly bad at
recycling plastic. And I think a lot of that is
simply the the you know, the oil industry. The oil
industry has seen the growing concern about climate change and
the fact that there were policies being adopted to make
(10:20):
cars more fuel efficient and the like, and so one
of the product lines that they have wanted to increase
is plastics, right, petrochemical plastics, and yeah, we we don't
do a good job of recycling. I don't think it
would be hard for us to match some of the
better countries in the world. But you know, it is
something that unfortunately has been I would just say, undermined
(10:45):
by you know, the major the major oil companies who
don't want to make it easy to return bottles.
Speaker 8 (10:51):
It used to be.
Speaker 10 (10:51):
You may remember, uh, yeah, you're you're, you're you're of
my closer to my age, I think, And and you
remember when that you can get your bottle built bottles,
you know, back right for the bottles.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
Did they even make nickels anymore? I know they stopped
making pennants, but yes, I do.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I do remember that.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
I will say, by the way, as we as we
prayer to go to calls, our number is eight four four.
Speaker 2 (11:12):
Middle eight four four four six four three three five three.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
And we do want to hear from you, even if
it doesn't matter to you to go green, but if
it does matter to you, we want to hear from
you as well. Give us called eight four four four
Middle Tolliver. One of the arguments against spending money on
renewable energy is that other countries may.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
Not be doing it.
Speaker 8 (11:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:32):
President Trump has pointed to coal plants being opened in China.
Here he is speaking back in April, that.
Speaker 11 (11:38):
China is opening two plants every week. Germany went to green,
very green. They went so green they almost went out
of business. They Germany was finished. They went to wind.
The wind wasn't blowing too much, and they went to
all sorts of other things.
Speaker 12 (11:55):
You know.
Speaker 11 (11:56):
The green news scam hit Germany too, And guess what
now they're back to cole. They're opening up coal plants
all over Germany were the ones that aren't doing it.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
Important to note that Germany did restart some coal plants
to deal with an energy crisis when the Ukraine War started,
but has since shut them back down and remains committed
to phasing out coal.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
By the year twenty thirty. We've got your calls coming
up on the Middle.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically,
or maybe you want to meet in the middle. This hour,
we're asking if going green matters to you. Tolliver the
number again, please.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on all social media.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
I'm joined by heat map News executive editor Robinson Meyer
and Joseph Rome, a climate expert at the University of Pennsylvania.
And Rob we just heard President Trump there talking about China.
How do a ma cans compare to say, China and
India when it comes to green energy.
Speaker 9 (13:04):
So I would say there's two totally different stories China.
What's happening with electricity in China is actually, I think
one of the most important and interesting energy story that's
stories that's happened this century, and it is extremely relevant
in the age of artificial intelligence. And that's because China
seemingly has the ability to add enormous amounts of energy
(13:26):
and electricity generation to its power grid, and it has
built an extremely, extremely capable and extremely large power grid.
So the President mentioned in that clip that China's building
coal plants. It is building coal plants. Last year actually
built it started to build one hundred gigawatts of coal,
which is a lot of electricity and at the same time,
(13:51):
it added three hundred more than three hundred gigawatts of
renewable electricity and especially solar. And so what's taking shape
in China is I think a fairly unintuitive to American
ears combination of like a hydro solar and coal powered grid.
And so China is simultaneously in the position of being
(14:13):
building more coal plants than the rest of the world
combined and also building more solar than the rest of
the world combined. I think it's driven by this by both,
you know, competition within the provinces and also this kind
of embrace from China's central government of building as much
energy as possible. You could add that some of this
(14:33):
is a lot of anxiety in China about being dependent
on oil. The country doesn't have very large oil reserves
in the same way say the US the Middle East does,
and so there's been a move to move to any
other kind of secure energy source. India a different story,
very coal dependent and kind of much more of a
traditional heavy pollution developing country story, although they are building
(14:55):
a fair amount of solar as well.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Well.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
And on the individual level that we're talking about this hour, Joe,
what do you say say to people who say I'm
not going to make a decision based on the environment
because other people are.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
Not doing it.
Speaker 10 (15:06):
Well, I think the important thing to remember, and maybe
we don't say this enough, is that the price of
solar power has come down by you know, a factor
of ten in the past decade, and in the past
three decades has come down a factor of one hundred. Right,
Solar is in fact the cheapest form of electric.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
Power, and not just because of government subsidies.
Speaker 10 (15:26):
No, no, no, not because so many you know, because
it's you know, it's been technology advantages, the way batteries
have come down in price. Right, certain technologies, because they're
small and modular, can come down a learning curve. Not
every technology can do this. But the important point is
that solar, wind and batteries this year in the United
(15:49):
States will be ninety seven percent of excuse me, ninety
three percent of all new electric generating capacity.
Speaker 8 (15:56):
And it's strictly as a matter of cost.
Speaker 10 (15:58):
Now, the purpose of the tax credits is that solar
has an high upfront cost. Right, It doesn't have any
fuel cost like natural gas boiler, you have to keep
buying natural gas.
Speaker 13 (16:09):
Right.
Speaker 10 (16:09):
The sun just keeps shining, so it's one upfront cost,
so it made sense, I think, you know from and
I worked in the Department of Energy for five years
and helped run the Office of Energy Efficiency nonobal Energy.
The idea was help people pay for the first costs
and then they would be free from these price fluctuations.
You may remember the price of natural gas over the
(16:29):
last twenty five years is skyrocket and drop down, and
it makes it very hard for anyone to do planning.
And now, of course we're exporting a lot of our
cheap natural gas. That's what liquefied natural gas. Those LNG
terminals are about. So if you export our cheap gas,
which the President wants to do, you're obviously going to.
Speaker 8 (16:47):
Make domestic gas prices higher. And that's exactly what's happening.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Let's get to the fundes.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
Liz is calling in from Minneapolis. Liz, are you going green?
Does it matter to you?
Speaker 14 (17:00):
Hie?
Speaker 15 (17:02):
It matters a great deal to me. I'm actually an
environmental science high school teacher, and I really think that
everybody cares about having a clean and healthy and green environment.
I can't imagine there's very many people that don't care
about it.
Speaker 14 (17:20):
But it's with the removal of incentives like this that
makes it a rich person's game to be an environmentalist
and something that if you're struggling in other ways, it
becomes really difficult to prioritize something that seems abstract and
in the far future. So I think it's I'm so
(17:40):
upset about the removal of these incentives. I think it
makes it really difficult for ordinary folks to prioritize those
long term things for themselves and their families and their neighbors. Yeah,
and it's also yeah, I don't know. There was a
(18:01):
court case in Montana a couple of years ago held
versus the State of Montana where young people's food the
state and said that by giving incentives and not considering
climate change, giving incentives more to a classible fuel companies,
they were endangering their future, which was against the state constitution.
And I'm curious if your experts have any ideas on
(18:23):
any implications of that ruling from a couple of years ago.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Thank you, Liz for that. I'll first of all ask
if either.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Of you know about that ruling and its and its effects.
Speaker 9 (18:36):
I can I can talk about it a little, I mean,
and I'm going to not be able to go much
farther than the collar.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Let me let me ask you this.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Then she brought up this this point that it's a
rich person's game, and I just wonder, as we're seeing
prices rise on so many other things right now, people
are having a difficult time affording the food that they're
buying at the supermarket, does that make it less likely
that people are going to want to do things that
would be good for the environment or even as we've
heard from Joe, good for the long term of their
(19:07):
financial health because they may be paying a lot less
for energy.
Speaker 9 (19:10):
Rob Well, I think absolutely. And I think we saw
that in the in the sales data earlier this year
for EV's, which is as soon as those tax credits
went away for EV's, you know, there was a surge
in EV purchasing in September as people rush to get
in before the deadline, and then in October, I think
EV sales fell thirty to fifty percent depending on the brand,
(19:33):
which is in line with what we've seen around the world.
When you pull out EV tax credits like this, or
incentives or subsidies in some ways, you know, you do
see sales fall. And I think that that's exactly the
situation we're talking about, right that that as soon as
as soon as people have to make a trade off
between you know, it's it's EV's are at the point.
(19:55):
You know, Joe was talking about how many might be
cheaper on a per mile basis. I can say, I
think that does depend on whether you can charge at home.
I live in an apartment in the city. I can't
charge at home, and I would rely on on chargers.
But I think evs depend you know, there's still often
expensive upfront on an upfront basis, even if they're then
(20:16):
cheap to charge, and in order to make that large
upfront purchase, you know, you do need help. Yeah, and
that was part of the rational for the tax credits.
Speaker 8 (20:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
I saw somebody at the Whole Foods near me has
a free electric vehicle charger right in the front, and
there was a guy in his Tesla sleeping. I don't
think he was a customer. I think he just came
there charged for free the other day.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It tells you about, you know, the need for that.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
Susan is calling in from Canyon County, Idaho. Susan, go ahead,
are you going green? Does it matter to you?
Speaker 16 (20:48):
Absolutely? I'm a retired grandma, So my dollars are not
that many, and they matter, But I've been able to
go green for years. I at the end of the
first Trump administer I was able to acquire a gently
used second generation EV without the credit, but the savings
(21:08):
from the depreciation from the desler got me a brand
new car with only one thousand miles on it, and
it's been in a June. And I've been working on
the idea of rooftop but I've always been ineligible due
to my home being manufactured, never has been eligible for
these credits. But I've been watching the plug in solar phenomenon,
(21:31):
the balcony plug in solar panels that are so popular
in Europe, and apparently we have a couple of companies
here that have been selling them for a few years.
But this year my neighboring state of Utah passed a
law to make them absolutely legal and to compel the
utilities to allow these devices that do not even have
to cycle the power back into the grid. They can
(21:55):
turn themselves off when they reach an excess situation. So
now I'm reading since then that love was passed in
March or so that China is now interesting in entery
in our market, which I think a little competition will
make ours manufacturers want the car.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (22:13):
Interesting point, Yeah, Susan, thank you very much for that, Joe.
It brings up the question of whether the private sector
without these credits is going to still keep moving in
the direction that it had been, and that could be
solar companies or electric companies or car companies that have
already been kind of becoming more green.
Speaker 10 (22:34):
Well, I think, look, the good news is that, and
I think it's important for all your listeners understand. Electric
vehicles have become the winner in essentially every major country
in the world, and.
Speaker 8 (22:48):
It's slower here for a couple of reasons.
Speaker 10 (22:50):
One, we have policies like you know that are posing
or slowing their use. And second, people drive like twice
as far here as they do in other country. But
in much of Europe and China, you know, these are
not only the fastest growing, but they're coming down in price.
And I think most Americans will see, you know, within
(23:12):
a few years that these cars are actually either the
same price or cheaper, but they're much easier to maintain.
They have far fewer moving parts, right, so their pair
bills are considerably lower. Again, the promile cost is considerably lower,
and the performance is just you know, this is a
car that can accelerate you know, zero to sixty in
(23:33):
a couple of seconds. And you know, as we move
towards making our cars much more electronic platforms, it just
makes sense to have, you know, large electric batteries on
board the car. Otherwise you have to run it off
the gasoline engine, which is incredibly inefficient. So you know,
the future is electric cars. And that's sort of one
of the tragedies of eliminating the tax credits. The tax
(23:56):
credits were as much to help the auto industry make
the transition to these cars that are going to dominate
the marketplace in the twenty thirties. Right, they're just going
to take over.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
Even still they think they still will.
Speaker 10 (24:10):
Toyota is about to within two or three years, toy
is going to introduce Toyda has introduced a fifteen thousand
dollars electric vehicle in China, right, And I think you're
going to see Toyda introduce like twenty different models all
by itself in the next two or three years. And
I think you're going to see the affordability of these
(24:31):
vehicles and you know, and again we continue the buildout
of electric chargers, right, and so that other issue of
am I going to be able to get a charger
and all.
Speaker 8 (24:40):
That, all of that is being addressed.
Speaker 10 (24:42):
And like I said, I think that there's no real
stopping you know, electric vehicles.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
I saw somebody a friend just posted a cross country
road trip in an electric vehicle with the stops all
the way from Montana to Florida and was able to
make it all the way across with the charging stations necessary. Tolliver,
what is coming in at Listen to the middle dot com.
Speaker 4 (25:03):
Yeah, we got a bunch of folks asking about the
role of AI in this discussion, especially me, and then
also Laura Minnesota is opposed a really interesting questions. She says,
please ask your guests about the costs in public health
associated with fossil fuel energy, such as asthma, respiratory illness,
and cancer.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
So I positive.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Interesting question, Rob, you know, that is another cost that
is important to think about. What It's not just these
things don't happen in a vacuum.
Speaker 8 (25:29):
It's true.
Speaker 9 (25:30):
I mean I think when you look worldwide fossil fuels
or combustion from fossil fuels is responsible for like one
in five deaths worldwide because you know soot, particularly this
like very microscopic particulate matter that can that can pass
the blood bain barrier blood brain barrier and get stuck
in your veins is responsible for some huge share of
(25:51):
heart attacks in the US. I will say, we have
the Clean Air Act, we've catlytic converters in our cars.
It's not as, it's not as it doesn't have this
same mortality impact here necessarily, but in some neighborhoods it does.
Either those neighborhoods in your car, your your power plants,
or neighborhoods where a highway goes through.
Speaker 8 (26:10):
Uh.
Speaker 9 (26:12):
I think there was also an AI question, but I
don't want to leap ahead.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Well, and I'm gonna We're gonna get to don't you worry.
We will get to ailet.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Let's go to Scott, who's in Charleston, South Carolina. Uh Hi, Scott,
go ahead with your question or your or your thoughts
about this.
Speaker 17 (26:30):
Well, good evening. You were you were asking if I
believe in going green, as you say, absolutely, I cannot
think of one factor that is not beneficial regarding solar power.
Uh in particular. And I think Ai and and what
(26:50):
we're seeing and reading in the news regarding the consumption
of electricity uh as Ai comes along is just massive.
Uh the the electric rates are already continually rising through
you know, the utility companies. A solar power is is
(27:16):
it's the it is a saving grace and it's it's do.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
You think it'll be enough, though, Scott, to power the
future if there's going to be all these data centers
for artificial intelligence?
Speaker 17 (27:31):
The question isn't whether it's enough because the utilities aren't
going anywhere. Generation you know, generation of power is not
an issue as to only sell you know, only coal
or only solar or only wind. It's a confluence of
(27:51):
all the above. And it's ignorant to cut out. In
my opinion, it's it's it's just silly to cut out
solar power when the pros outweigh the cons is such
an incredible degree. Yeah, you know, they use the consumption
(28:12):
of energy and electricity is not diminishing, and prices are
not coming down, regardless of what anybody doesn't. Thanks, prices
never come down.
Speaker 3 (28:22):
Right when we talked about that all last week on
the show, Actually, Scott, but thank you for that, call
Joe your thoughts about that that will need solar, but
we'll also need other sources of energy to power the
AI future.
Speaker 10 (28:36):
Well, this is something I've studied a great deal of written.
I wrote a report earlier for the University of Pennsylvania
Center for Science, Sustainability and Media.
Speaker 8 (28:44):
I just.
Speaker 10 (28:46):
Gave was on a webinar panel for the National Academy
of Sciences on this subject.
Speaker 8 (28:52):
Here's the thing to realize.
Speaker 10 (28:53):
The data is now very good that the closer you
are to a data center, the more likely it is
that the wholesale price of electricity around you, and therefore
the retail prices are going to go up. Right, The
data is now very good at that We're in this
very bizarre world where six or seven of the most
successful companies the United States are all trying to do
(29:14):
exactly the same thing, and they all and and and
so we're getting the staggering duplication of people trying to
get data centers built. And every single one of the
you know, grid operators, has this huge list of companies
that says, we want to build a data center, and
(29:35):
so they're making these projections. We have to build all
of these power plants and that is simply, you know,
going to drive up everyone's utility rates, and I urge
people to be very you know, skeptical.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Well, toll of our electric vehicles, as we've heard, are
a big part of this conversation, and for our gen
Z listeners, Tesla was not the beginning of that.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
Yeah, First we had hybrid cars, especially the Toyota Prius,
which came to the US in the early two thousands,
along with this commercial in which you can hear oil
Derek's sprouting legs and walking away.
Speaker 18 (30:07):
There's a change happening that begins with Prius, Toyota's revolutionary
hybrid vehicle and continues with law vehicles rated most fuel
efficient in their class than any other brand. Transportation has
finally evolving.
Speaker 3 (30:30):
Okay, telever, did you hear how he said is finally evolving.
That was Jeff Goldblum who was in that commercial, and
he stressed that word evolving because back then he was
famous for knowing a lot about evolution. In the original
Jurassic Park movie, remember him, He's like, you spent so
much time thinking about whether you should You didn't think
(30:51):
about whether you could whether you should should? Yeah, I
gotta get my Jurassic Park lines down with be right
back with more of your calls coming up on the middle.
This is the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're
asking if going green matters to you. I'm joined by
Joseph Rome, senior Research fell at the University of Pennsylvania's
(31:11):
Pen Center for Science, Sustainability in the Media, and heat
Map News Executive editor Robinson Meyer. Our number is eight
four four four middle. That's eight four four four six
four three three five three. And again, if you aren't
interested in going green, I do want to hear from you.
It doesn't just have to be people who are interested
in going green, rob I want to get to one
thing that's been in the news that does connect to
(31:31):
this conversation, which is Bill Gates made headlines in October
when he kind of backed off the doomsday view of
climate change and talked about climate exaggeration. What is the
significance in your mind of that. Are people just burnt
out from hearing that if they don't do X, Y
or Z, the planet's going to die?
Speaker 9 (31:50):
I think that where I took so Bill Gates put
out of memo in October as you were saying that
that he said three. It was called three tough Truths
on Climate or something, and I went to was a
number of journalists who kind of heard him speak about
the memo. I would say that my takeaway from the
memo was was less that he thinks there's been exaggeration
(32:12):
of kind of what climate might do in the near
term or in the long term, and more that what
he's observed in the Trump administration, but frankly, also from
Western European governments, is that there has been a defunding
of kind of traditional public health and development programs across
the planet. I think the most significant would be USAID,
(32:36):
and it's defunding of PEP far that the giant HIV
prevention program in Africa, and I think for Gates, whose
money has gone you know two kind of splits his
philanthropy between public health and climate. The memo was almost
a signal to climate groups that like, look, as long
(32:56):
as there is this total destruction of public health money,
I'm going to fund public health first, because that's what
I think is most important in your term.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Imagine having those choices. What can I do with my billiness?
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Yeah, Sidarius is calling in from Nashville, Tennessee. Does growing
green matter to you, Sidarius?
Speaker 19 (33:17):
Yeah, going green actually matters to me because we can't
extract resources from a planet forever without consequences. And I
feel like America would be so much farther in the
EB revolution if we didn't have certain industries and certain
companies that depended on their profits so wholeheartedly that any
(33:39):
new technology is seen as an exogential threat. I'm talking,
of course about the oil companies.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
And what about from your perspective, I mean, have you
yourself decided to go solar, get an EV or anything
like that.
Speaker 19 (33:53):
Well, I've definitely haven't gone solo or haven't gone EV.
But I have heard a very interesting article from about
how eating fish as opposed to well, eating chicken more
as opposed to eating fish or beefs can have can
actually reduce my carbon footprints. So I have been taking
that into account as opposed to I mean, also it's harge.
(34:13):
I just like eating more foods that is more sustainably
grown and locally grown in that spase, like, it's not
all has to be technology driven, so to speak. That
there are small habits that everyday people can do, like
changing to die or taking a walk or even going
back to carpooling.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, great points, Sidarius, Thank you very much. Joe. What
do you think about about that?
Speaker 3 (34:33):
And what would you say to our listeners who say,
you know, I can't afford right now to you know,
do these big technological advancements in my car or my home.
But I can do these other things, don't they matter?
Speaker 8 (34:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (34:45):
Well, look, I certainly would urge everyone who is concerned
about let's say they're electricity rates. Most local utilities have
programs to help you save energy.
Speaker 8 (34:56):
I don't know the utilities.
Speaker 10 (34:58):
Many utilities aren't so good at advertising, others are, but
generally you can they have rebates, and they have people
sometimes who will even you know, do an energy audit
of your home, look for where the heat is leaking out.
So yeah, I think, you know, the the easiest way
to lower your energy bill is is energy efficiency, right,
led lighting, more insulation, more efficient equipment of that sort.
(35:23):
So you know, I think people always have options to
address the situation. But you know, like I said, if
the government has flawed policies, that's just going to be
like an albatross, you know, or lead weight around everybody's neck.
And unfortunately that's the situation. You know we're in for
the next few years.
Speaker 3 (35:42):
Gary is calling in from Philadelphia. Go ahead with your
thoughts about going green.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Yeah, I want.
Speaker 20 (35:48):
I wanted to speak to the epidemic of doomism of
most of our majority of our high school age kids
feeling we're screwed, it's too late, and why bother. And
just want to give one important fact that I hope
parents will convey through these cynical pessimistic kids that they
have and the teachers will convey. And here's the fact
(36:09):
that every one tenth of a degree we can prevent
from happening by accelerating the getting rid of fossil fuel
emissions and also includes a cat eating beef because cattle
produces cattle raising produces as much global warming gases via
methane as does driving cars. Every one tenths of a
(36:32):
degree we can prevent from happening will save the lives
of two hundred million people. It's more than half the
size of this country every year dying from floods, from droughts,
from disease, and from migration.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
Every little bit counts. Gary, thank you for that. And actually,
since you bring up the young people, just so we
don't tarnish everybody with being a pessimist, because a lot
of young people that we hear from on this show
are quite optimistic about the future. We've got a thirty
one year old I'm going to count that as young
Cody in Kansas City is calling in. Tell you think, Tolliver,
that's young. Okay, Cody, go ahead, what do you think?
(37:10):
What do you think about what you just heard there?
Speaker 12 (37:13):
Well, first of all, I appreciate you take im the
young Jeremy. That's really a great to hear. Well, to
get to the original question, I think it's not just
important to me, it's essential to me and you know,
my friends my age who are just now having kids,
to ensure that we all have a livable future. What
we know about the climate crisis as it stands and
(37:37):
the feedback loops that are soon to be triggered if
we continue along this path of global warming, will really
create a planet that's not livable in my lifetime. So,
while I do think it's important to go green in
any capacity you can as an individual, I think the
(37:57):
best thing, and I would encourage your listeners to do,
is to talk to your neighbors and organize and mobilize
against specifically data centers as they pop up around the country.
Several in Kansas City are promising to use more energy
than the entire city produces, and the local utilities will
be opening new gas firing plants to accommodate for these things.
(38:21):
And this is happening all over the country. These tech
barons are trying to make hay while the sun is shining, aka,
while Trump is in office, and they're in the Oval
office with them. So talk to your neighbors, show up
to your city council meetings where these zoning conversations are happening,
where discussions about what incentives to give the richest companies
(38:42):
on the planet like Meta and Google to build these
data centers and rob you of your water and your
energy are happening and you can do something about it.
Talk to your community, plug in and do something.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Yeah, thank you Cody for that. Joe, you were nodding
along as he was talking talking about data centers and
organizing against them.
Speaker 10 (39:04):
Absolutely, look like I said, we're on path to overbuild
the data centers.
Speaker 8 (39:09):
There's no question.
Speaker 10 (39:10):
Look, AI is a very useful tool, but do we
need an AHI from you know, Meta and from Google
and from open Ai. You know and from you know,
several other countries companies. You know, I appreciate that everybody,
you know what doesn't want to be left behind. But
(39:31):
I think what we're going to do is be left
with a huge overbuild. And what happens is if you
build these plants and then it turns out you don't
need to use all of them, you are stuck with
this asset that the that the utility gets to charge
you for.
Speaker 8 (39:48):
Right, utility wants to build more power plants because that's
how it is able to raise your rates.
Speaker 10 (39:54):
Right, That's the way most utility regulations are done in
this country. So you know, I think that, yeah, I
urge people, and a lot of people around the country
are organizing locally to stop these data centers because yes,
as this caller said, they also soak up a lot
of water besides electricity, So you know, you don't want
to be left in a situation, and they don't generate
(40:15):
a lot of jobs.
Speaker 8 (40:16):
Yes, you have to construct.
Speaker 10 (40:17):
Them, right, but once you run them, once you have
them running, right, they're just a server farm, right.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
And you and if they're empty, I mean, how many
spirit of halloweens can you have in this country? There's
just not enough, not enough people, not enough costumes needed.
Danny is in Las Vegas. Danny, what about you? Are
just going green?
Speaker 2 (40:35):
Matter to you?
Speaker 19 (40:37):
All right?
Speaker 13 (40:38):
Yes, Danny, it definitely matters to me. I'm twenty five,
I'm a doctoral candidate in electrical engineering. I wanted to
make a quick comment about electrical vehicles, and we absolutely
need to move away from fossil fuel sources. But there's
a new foresight that needs to be put into our
solutions going forward that hasn't been in the past. In
a particular, mining for lithium and is very destructive and
(41:01):
in the Vata particularly will cause destruction of quite a
few unique wildlife refuges and water sources. So there are
better solutions that we might possibly need to consider, more
like hydrogen fuel cell cars which use smaller batteries overall,
in solutions for our transportation, and just this kind of
(41:23):
war thought that we didn't have before. In I know,
we need to move quickly, but we have to think
really long term, because if we do this wrong again
and we allow private interests to fores feed us electrical
vehicles and things that aren't good, it will be really
damaging to our children, to our lives due to our planets.
Speaker 2 (41:43):
So, Danny, very interesting points.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Actually, I'm glad you brought that up, Rob because just
because something is environmentally friendly compared to the alternative doesn't
mean it's environmentally perfect.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
And actually President Trump.
Speaker 3 (41:53):
Has I mean, people laugh when he says this, but
he's talked about, you know, wind farms killing birds there.
Speaker 2 (41:59):
I know that there's been you know.
Speaker 3 (42:00):
A lot of of talk about wind farms in the
water in the ocean being harmful because of the how
does it affect whales and things like that. What about
some of the downsides environmentally of evs for example.
Speaker 9 (42:16):
Yeah, I have a colleague who says we shouldn't call
this will be a controversial statement, that we shouldn't call
solar and wind clean energy because they are zero carbon energy.
They're very important forms of energy, but we should just
describe what they are because people are going to say, oh,
I don't like this. I've heard that this mineral is
in them, and I don't like that aspect of it.
And I think to the extraction question, it's it's a
(42:39):
tough it's a tough one. And what I'd say is
that when you think about kind of what energy sources
require what level of extraction. The most extraction that's required
of any kind of form is actually for for gasoline, right,
So gasoline and oil require taking resources out of ground
(43:00):
continually in order to keep just filling up your tank.
In the middle, I would say, as evs and you know,
whether it's lithium, I would say that there's been progress
recently and moving from EV batteries that require cobalt and
other particularly hard minerals, to get to what are called
LFP batteries which require iron maybe more common minerals. The
(43:23):
energy source that actually requires the least amount of extraction
is going to sound funny to maybe the old school
environmentalist in the group, which is nuclear. Although uranium mining
can be quite locally destractive, it actually requires the least
amount of extraction per unit of energy created. I think,
(43:43):
you know, the the challenge here is that any form
of any kind of industrial development is going to require
some form of some form of extraction, some form of mining.
And there we can have arguments, and there are discussions,
and there are you know, political battles. As the color
(44:04):
was referencing to whether it will happen in the US,
I will say it the US is not the only
entity that gets to cast a vote, and Americans are
not the only entity that gets to cast a vote.
Kind of about where minerals are extracted and and China
has been very successful, for instance, in operating minds extracting
these minerals across the world. And I think that if there,
(44:28):
you know, without weighing in on any one project, the
track record for minds that are domestically in the US
has been better than those operated abroad.
Speaker 3 (44:38):
Tolliver, let's get another comment from listening to the middle
dot com.
Speaker 4 (44:40):
Sure Lubo says, I will add one more alternative alternative,
fix the leaks in your house. There's a German idea
for passive houses that lets you live comfortably with little electricity.
And we continue to push energy through the cracks and
must sneak this last one in. Paul says, gentlemen, how
is the development of hydrogen engines for cars progressing that
we see high powered cars in the near future.
Speaker 3 (45:03):
I'm gonna hold that for another shore. I feel like
that's like I'm going to get one more caller in here.
Speaker 10 (45:08):
Well, I did, I should say, go ahead to write
a book called Okay, okay, fine, I take that back.
And I did run the hydrogen bro. Yeah, I don't
think hydrogen is really the future.
Speaker 8 (45:18):
I don't want to.
Speaker 10 (45:19):
You should do a whole you know show on some
of these other technologies. But yeah, I think electricity is
the winner because in order to have a green hydrogen car,
you have to run the high make the hydrogen from
a renewable electricity anyway, and it's a very inefficient process.
So I think you know, the future is electric vehicles.
I don't think you know that. There's many experts who
would tell you different.
Speaker 3 (45:40):
All right, let's sneak in one more Wayne in Procter, Minnesota. Wayne,
does going green matter to you?
Speaker 19 (45:47):
Yes?
Speaker 21 (45:48):
I two years ago I bought electric vehicle because of
the Canadian fires. You know, I live up by the
loath and I just got tired of that. I also
have a hybrid water heater which has a heating changer
on top that's much more efficient and heating up.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
My hot water.
Speaker 21 (46:07):
So yeah, and I just other things I can do
to go more green.
Speaker 7 (46:10):
I will.
Speaker 2 (46:11):
And does it save you money? Oh?
Speaker 19 (46:14):
Yes?
Speaker 21 (46:15):
Also I can power my house off of my electric vehicle.
It has an adapter so I can actually plug it
into my house.
Speaker 12 (46:22):
Wow.
Speaker 21 (46:22):
And just those I got back up.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
You said that you did this because of the Canadian fires,
just because of the environmental things that you believe were
leading to those fires happening or what.
Speaker 21 (46:34):
Yeah, yes, and just the smoke that we got. We're
a lot closer to the Canadas and a lot of
other city and just all the smoke we're getting. I
got tired of it, and I thought, well, I'm going
to get electric vehicle at least going to drive around
and not make it worse, but also overall or helped
the environment. I'm using elect less energy, yeah, less fossil fuels.
Speaker 3 (46:59):
Yeah, I will Wayne. Thank you very much for that call, Joe.
It's interesting we've heard from so many people, whether they
are actually buying an electric vehicle or going solar or not,
they care and they're doing what they can.
Speaker 8 (47:14):
Absolutely.
Speaker 10 (47:14):
I think people often get this view that this isn't
popular because some of the people who oppose it, it's
a small group, but they're very noisy and they get
repeated a lot on social media. But yes, the overwhelming
majority of Americans support strong all of those tax credits
that got canceled, those have like seventy eighty percent public support.
(47:36):
So I think it's important to understand, as you heard
on this show, yes people are doing this, and you know,
you really do have opportunities to make to lower the
cost of your energy bills with sometimes with technology sometimes
you know, check for you know, yes, you can get
an energy audited house which will have an infrared detector
(47:57):
that will look where the heat is escaping or the
cold air is going in, and you can fix those
and that will make a very big difference at a
low cost.
Speaker 3 (48:06):
And Rob just last word to you briefly, do you
think that in the next ten years, depending on what
happens in our politics, that these kinds of tax credits
will ever come back.
Speaker 9 (48:15):
I do think they'll come back. I think they're very
likely to come back. And I actually think that it's
as much to do with America needing to maintain competitiveness
as anything else. You know, this year in China have
fifty one percent of new vehicle sales where electric. You know,
China is able to make electric cars for less than
thirty thousand dollars that have hundreds of miles of range,
and the rest of the world is very tired of
(48:37):
importing oil. You know, here in the US, we're blessed
with big oil reserves and we have relatively cheap gasoline.
The rest of the world is very tired of importing oil,
and they're very eager to import those vehicles. I think
in order to stay competitive, we're going to need an
ev strategy here in the United States.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
That is Robinson Meyer, the executive editor of heat map News.
We've also been speaking with Joseph Frome, senior research fell
at the University of Pennsylvania's Penn Center for Science, Sustainable
Ability and the Media. Thanks to both of you so
much for joining us.
Speaker 8 (49:04):
Thank you Ert, thanks for having us.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
And next week, Tolliver, we will be joined by two
longtime care giving experts. We're going to be asking if
you're ready to care for a loved one when that
time comes. Apparently one in four adults in the United
States is doing that right now.
Speaker 8 (49:21):
Wow.
Speaker 4 (49:21):
You can reach us at eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can go listen or sorry, go to Listen
to the Middle dot com to subscribe to our free
weekly newsletter, which is now on substack.
Speaker 3 (49:33):
The Middal is brought to you by Longnock Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and Arbana, Illinois and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmastas, John barth On, A. Cadessler,
and Brandon Condritz. Our technical director is Steve Mork. Thanks
to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and the
hundreds of public radio stations that are making it possible
for people across the country to listen to the Middle,
I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
I will talk to you next week
Speaker 7 (50:00):
And
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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