May 30, 2025 • 50 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we ask if the cost of a college education is still worth it. Jeremy is joined by former University of California President Janet Napolitano and Education Design Lab founder Kathleen DeLaski. DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus calls from around the country. #college #tuition #higherducation #publiceducation #privateeducation #studentdebt #studentloans #tradeschool
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey Middle podcast listeners, Hey Toliver. Have a little announcement
just before we get started, which is that public radio,
which is a big part of our show. We're on
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(00:20):
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It takes a lot of work to do the show,
(00:41):
and so we appreciate your contribution right now at Listen
to the Middle dot Com in any amount to get
us through this kind of rough period at the moment. Okay,
we'll make it, Yeah, we'll make it, but with your help,
please enjoy the show. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy
Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver I
(01:04):
am very excited about this show, but as you know,
I have something else on my mind right now. I'm
about to embark on the biggest physical feat of my
life in just a matter of days.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
What was it, Oh, you're going to the bike ride.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Bik do the Final AIDS life cycle ride from San
Francisco to La It is seven days, five hundred and
sixty miles to raise money for HIV prevention and care
for people with the disease. It's been amazing to train
for it over the last several months, meet people who've
done it for years. You can find out more about
it that listen to the Middle dot com and when
we are not live next week and instead on tape,
(01:35):
just back off and know that I'm exhausted and i
am living on electrolite packets.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Off.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Okay, So this hour we are talking about a college
education and whether it is still worth the cost, which
is now about thirty thousand dollars a year for a
public school, about sixty for a private school. Now, college
graduates do make about sixty percent more money on average
than high school graduates, but often have a lot of
debt to pay off, and a job is certainly not
(02:01):
guaranteed depending on your major. So we want to hear
from you, is a college education worth the cost? Or
number is eight four four four middle that's eight four
four four six four three three five three. Get to
that in just a moment. But first, last week on
the show, we asked you about diversity, equity, and inclusion,
which the Trump administration has basically banned from the federal government.
(02:22):
Here are some of the voicemails we got after the show.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
My name is Lee Williams. I'm calling from Saint Louis.
If not DEI, then we're back to segregation like it
was fifty to sixty years ago. If not DEI, then
every hire that's called a merit hire means a white meal.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
My name is Mesa. I am from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and
in my opinion, DEI is unreplaceable.
Speaker 6 (02:47):
There's no DEI or what equation in society today.
Speaker 7 (02:51):
I'm Jason, I'm in Kansas. I actually generally support a
lot of DEI practices, but what I don't support is
essentially giving favor to people that aren't white. It's honestly
just not fair in my opinion, and especially some of
my friends don't like the idea that, Okay, I'm a
black doctor, but I want to make sure that I
don't have that little asterix that I got in because
(03:13):
of my color over somebody who is more deserving.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in, and you can
hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
to podcasts. So now of our question this hour, is
a college education still worth the cost? Tolliver the phone
number please.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write into us at Listen to the Middle dot com.
You can also comment on our live stream, our YouTube,
our TikTok, our Instagram. I'm looking at them all.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So allow to this Now joining me this hour former
University of California President Janet Napolitano, who also served as
Secretary of Homeland Security under President Obama and the governor
of Arizona and now directs the Center for Security and
Politics at U SEE Berkeley. Secretary Napolaitano, great to have
you on the show. Thank you and Education Design Lab
founder Kathleen Dulaski's with us as well. She's the author
(04:03):
of the book Who Needs College Anymore? Kathleen, welcome to you.
Speaker 8 (04:07):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So before we get to the funds, Jennet and Politano,
as we have this conversation about college, President Trump is
targeting the oldest university in America, that would be Harvard,
taking away government funding, billions of dollars, trying to revoke
visas for international students, remove the tax exempt status. As
the former president of the University of California, what is
your message to Harvard or to President Trump right now?
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Well, my message to Harvard is keep reforming yourself and
stand strong. And my message to the Trump administration is
what kind of future do you envision for the United
States without the vital higher education sector that we have.
And it's not just Harvard, I mean the Ivy League
(04:53):
is a TDtv tiny percentage of higher education in the
United States. It gets the bulk of public comment, but
it is so so tiny. Higher education in the United
States is a combination of private universities, liberal arts universities,
grand public universities, state universities like the University of California.
(05:15):
There are so called research universities, there are so called
comprehensive universities. There are two year community colleges. There are
numerous kind of trade types of education beyond high school.
I think the question, in a way for today should
be not only is a college education worth it, but
(05:36):
how we measure worth?
Speaker 8 (05:37):
And also.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Is an education beyond high school really necessary for the
world in which these young people are going to enter?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And do you think it is?
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Oh? For sure? I mean, you know, look, college education.
You know, there are lots of different tracks you can take.
There's a big menu, but it really should be viewed
as a time of maturation, a time of preparation, a
time of exploration. And it hits for most people right
(06:15):
at that age where you know, they're just about to
be independent of their families, but they need to grow,
they need to expand, and they need to prepare. And frankly,
K twelve education in this era is not enough.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Kathleen Laski. One of the things President Trump has proposed
is to take the billions in federal grants from Harvard
and distribute them to trade schools around the country. As
someone who has written about the alternatives to four year colleges.
What do you think of that?
Speaker 8 (06:46):
Well, I do think that trade school has gotten a
bad rap over the years, and we're now at a
point when college has become so expensive for many families,
or at least the perception that is expensive, and often
there are very many there are many affordable college options,
but because the perception is that it's very expensive, people
are looking at, you know, what else could I do
(07:07):
to prepare myself specifically for careers, because you know, most
people today are saying that they go to college to
prepare for careers. It used to be that they would
say they went to college to you know, for the
adultification process that Janet is describing. But now they want
they want results, they want jobs, and they're seeing that,
you know, a lot of the degrees that people can
(07:29):
come out with are not producing jobs. So you're seeing
a lot of press right now about oh, you know,
let's all become welders and we need more electricians and
HVAC people. But you know, part of why I wrote
the book is that it's all, you know, the work
world and the work landscape is changing so much because
of technology that we don't really need to think of
(07:51):
this binary choice between trade school or college or nothing. Right,
technologies blurring the lines between all these jobs and high
schools are starting to show us some of the options
at how you can learn both. You can learn cloud
computing while you're in high school. You can do an
apprenticeship either instead of or during college, and you can
(08:16):
get industry certifications that you know, the kind of line
you up to be, you know, job ready, whether you
go to college or not. But I'm not telling people
not to go to college. I'm just saying the world
is changing and colleges themselves will be offering a lot
more options over the coming decades, as well as there
being you know, non college options for people.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
Politic President Jerry Jermy, I think this proposal that President
Trump made, let's take money from Harvard and give it
to trade schools. It's kind of a classic administration move.
Let's just divide. Let's just divide people and have them
competing against each other. If he really wants to build
trade schools, invest in trade schools.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
But you know, don't you don't have to take it
from Harvard to do that.
Speaker 5 (09:02):
You're saying you don't have to take it away from
Harvard to do that, So I think, you know, I'm
all for education, and particularly post high school education. You know,
let's let's build on it, and let's create an expectation
in our young people that they are going to go
beyond high school in order to really be fully prepared
for the for the coming years.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I want to just ask you about one more thing
that the president is doing, because it does get to
what we're talking about here, and it has to do
the international students. There are more than a million international
students in the US at colleges and universities. They often
pay full freight and bring a lot of money in
for the colleges Janet to Politano. Are they driving up
costs or helping lower costs for other students?
Speaker 5 (09:44):
Well, I think for several reasons they don't drive up costs.
Costs at University of California is a is by and
large a four year institutions are one, meaning it's heavily
research based. We do have a certain percentage of international students,
(10:04):
and one of the ways we are able to keep
tuition costs down for in state California students is because
we have out of state students, which include out of
state in the United States, but also national students who
are paying full a full tuition load at the University
of California. If you come from a family that makes
less than eighty thousand a year, you pay no tuition
(10:26):
to attend the leading public university system in the country.
So I would say on the kind of relative valuation,
if we want to use the term valuation, these are
young people from around the world. By and large, what
they do is help support domestic students.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Kathin DELASKI why has college gotten to be so expensive
for a public university? I was looking back in nineteen
sixty three it was two hundred and forty three dollars
a year, which was about twenty four hundred adjusted for inflation.
But now it's almost thirty thousand for the for the
public universities.
Speaker 8 (11:02):
Well, the biggest reason, and I served for eight years
on the board of a public university in Virginia. For
for many decades, we we thought of the state and
to some extent, the federal government as investing in higher
education as at least a partial entitlement, right, and that
(11:23):
that investment has shifted, it's actually flipped. It used to be,
you know, government funded about two thirds of public education,
and now that model has slipped to about one third.
Of course, it varies by states. California, I think supports
more than most states do. But it's you know, more
of the cost is borne by families. You know, you
(11:44):
always hear about, at least in college circles. Everybody says, oh,
they're they're putting you know, climbing climbing gyms or climbing
walls and lazy rivers at colleges. And that's what's driving
up the cost is that, you know, parents expect it
to be like you know, the Ritz Carlton. That's just
not true. I mean it's it's human. It's you know,
human human costs of personnel and you know, keeping the
(12:08):
buildings renovated and that kind of thing. That's what's driving
up the cost of college. And with less public investment.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
You know, they put a lazy river in when I
was in college, but I never actually got into it. Really,
I don't get to from that Tulliver myth. Yeah, no,
it's real. One of the most famous college commencement addresses ever,
Tolliver was given by Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple,
back in two thousand and five at Stanford.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, he talked about going to read College, which he
said was almost as expensive as Stanford.
Speaker 9 (12:39):
After six months, I couldn't see the value in it.
I had no idea what I wanted to do with
my life, and no idea how college was going to
help me figure it out. And here I was spending
all the money my parents had saved their entire life.
So I decided to drop out and trust that it
would all work out. Okay, it was pretty scary at
the time, but look back, it was one of the
(13:01):
best decisions I ever made. The minute I dropped out,
I could stop taking the required classes that didn't interest
me and begin dropping in on the ones that looked
far more interesting and Tlliver.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
One of the classes he took was calligraphy, and he
actually used that to create the typeface that was in
the early Macintosh computers.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Oh wow, I remember that typeface as a young boy.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
It was fun to watch that Steve Jobs clip. I
have to say, it's so cool to watch him, watch
him talk. We will be right back with more of
the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If
you're just tuning in the Middle is a national call
in show. We're focused on elevating voices from the middle, geographically, politically, philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
(13:46):
This hour, we're asking if a college education is still
worth the cost? Tolliver, what is the number to call in?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on all social media platforms.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Or I'm joined by former University of California President Jennant
of Polaitano, an education Design Lab founder Kathleen d'laski, and
the lines are filling up. But let me ask you
one more thing before we go to the fundes Secretary
Napolitano as somebody who has run a lot of big organizations.
When you hire, does the college degree matter to you?
Speaker 5 (14:22):
It depends on the job at most, at the level
of which I'm doing the hiring, and for people doing
the jobs they're being hired for. Yes, a college degree matters.
Oftentimes a postgraduate degree matters. But there are many jobs
further down in large organizations that don't require a college education.
But I will tell you more and more they require
(14:44):
something beyond high school.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
All right, let's get to the phones. Ryan is calling
from Pittsburgh. Ryan, go ahead. Do you think a college
education is still worth the cost?
Speaker 6 (14:56):
Hey, good evening. I work at a research university here
in Pennsylvania, and I'm increasingly seeing that for probably more
than half of the students it's not. But I think
that an experience at a two year community college would be.
So I'm increasingly seeing like community colleges is maybe the
new land of opportunity or post high school education. But
(15:19):
I think that definitely means we need to stop having
this cast like mentality and looking down at community colleges
as where failed PhDs go to teach and fail students
end up because it's open to enrollment. We very much
have to change our mindset if we're going to re
envision the role and value and potential contributions that community
(15:40):
colleges have to play to society.
Speaker 10 (15:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Thank you for that. Kathain d'laski, what do you think
about that? Do you do you believe that people look
down on community colleges.
Speaker 8 (15:50):
I think that historically has been the case, but I
feel like the community college movement is having a moment
right now that is where a lot of the increase
enrollment is coming from right now post COVID. It's kind
of exciting what the community colleges are as kind of
seeing themselves as talent brokers that are becoming more agile
(16:10):
in their regions. And I know my organization, Education Design
Lab works with about one hundred community colleges around the
country working on what we call micro pathways. They're shorter
term versions of college that result in a credential and
we've designed them with employers. So your caller is absolutely
(16:30):
right that that is a great way to both save
money and really it sort of test out a career
or career switch later in life. A lot of the
students who are coming to community colleges are in their
twenties and thirties and forties and fifties. We see for
these short programs, you know, people right up to you know,
what you would think was near retirement age. It's quite exciting.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Let's go to Colby, who's in Houston. Colby, Welcome to
the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 11 (16:59):
Yeah, just wanted to say that I think that considering
the cost of college right now, that if you are
going to go that you should really have a good
idea of what kind of career you want to have,
and because you know, I went to college a while back,
and I feel like a lot of the jobs I've
had since then, my degree didn't really matter so much.
(17:22):
And whether or not I got hired.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
What about the other things that you learned in college
or the connections that you made, were those important to
your career?
Speaker 11 (17:31):
You know, I made some good connections. You know, I
met a lot of good people. I imagine that if
I did not go to college, my life would have
gone in a not so great direction. But also I
know that college was you know, at the time, it
seemed really expensive, and now it's even more so when
(17:51):
a lot of this information that you would really want
is easily accessible.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Thank you for that, quot be Secretary to Polatano. What
do you think about that? I imagine you've come across many,
many students at the University of California who came in
wanting to do one thing and then left doing something
completely different.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Yeah, that's fairly common, because remember you're dealing a lot
with seventeen eighteen year olds, and they do come in
with firm ideas and then in the course of their
college career they find other areas they take classes that
they never thought about that weren't offered in high school,
(18:33):
and they get interested in something else. And so that's
part of the maturation or adultization, I think is the
word Kathleen used, that can happen in a good college education,
as you get exposed to different things and are able
to follow that passion. Now I'm not saying here that
(18:54):
you should go to college and have no awareness of
what a career be, what a job would be, et cetera.
Of course you should, but it doesn't mean you have
to make those decisions from day one. In fact, I
would advise against.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
It, Kathleen to LASKI. By the way, one of the
things that the Trump administration has talked about in terms
of like where money is going to colleges and where
they don't want it to go is they'll bring up
things like LGBTQ studies or you know, French literature as
things that are just useless in today's economy. What do
you think about that.
Speaker 8 (19:29):
Well, I won't I won't comment on on what what
President Trump is doing in that regard except to say
that there is a movement and it's also going on
in the States and was going on before uh President
Trump came into office, whereby states are saying we want
to pay for performance. In other words, we want to
(19:52):
fund programs and degrees that result in an increase in
your earnings when you come out. States like Texas have
passed have passed laws that other states are looking at.
And so what you're seeing happen in some of those
states is the degrees you know, gender studies or psychology
or things which don't immediately lead to earnings increase are
(20:15):
being you know, I've seen in a few cases those
programs are being sunseted, and that you know, that could
become a trend. I don't know what Janet thinks about that,
but that's something that we're all watching.
Speaker 5 (20:27):
Well, what you think of too, is part of it
is is you know, some some states have a very
narrow view of what constitutes a higher education curriculum. But
on the on the other hand, for some of the
majors you mentioned, you know, demand in part is coming
into play here, and in fact, the humanity subjects and
(20:54):
to some degree the social science subjects in higher ed
are seeing students go elsewhere for their majors and and
so therefore over time they cut back those departments. So
it's a combination of things. Now in the future it
may grow back again.
Speaker 8 (21:10):
You don't know.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
But it's it is, it is not. It is a
function in some states of a state policy, state law
what can be taught, how it should be taught, which
I think is anathema to higher education. But it's also
a function over time of student demand.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Let's go to Matthew who is in Floresville, Texas. Hi, Matthew,
do you think a college education is worth the cost?
Speaker 12 (21:39):
It's worth the experience. I thank you for having me on.
It's worth the experience for sure. Is it worth the cost? No,
I don't think so. And I think a lot of
it has to do with my specific engineers degree that
I chose, but I think a lot of it has
to do with just, you know, the way the school
(21:59):
is ructured, you know. I think a lot of universities
probably the same way.
Speaker 13 (22:03):
You know.
Speaker 12 (22:04):
You know, especially in engineering, there's a lot of math involved,
a lot of science involved, and they give you a
fifty minute session to learn, you know, what you're supposed
to learn for that that day or that week. And
I spent a lot of time in the math. Lew
Lets say that you.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Know, and now and when do you have Do you
have debt from from your schooling?
Speaker 12 (22:24):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (22:26):
I went to school from went to school when I
was twenty six, and I went when I was in
from twenty ten to twenty fourteen. As when I graduated,
and it was they can they called it a four
year program, but it was really about a five and
a half year. I did nineteen plus credits, you know,
twenty plus credits most years, took summer classes just to
(22:47):
graduate in four years. No, I the death that I
left with, you know, and I worked the whole time
I was in college, and the death I left with
was six closest sie.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Wow. And let me just ask you just real quick, Matthew,
like you haven't been able to get a good, good
paying job with that engineering degree?
Speaker 12 (23:09):
No did I did? I got a well, I wouldn't
say it's a good paying job.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
When it came out.
Speaker 12 (23:14):
I should have been making about fifteen to twenty grand
more than when I started, because I you know, like
I said, I went when I went to college when
I was twenty six. Right right when I was thirty,
my wife there got married. So when I got a job,
it was a good job. But it wasn't paying what
I thought was going to pay. I was making more
than that when I was eighteen. Wow, just put it
(23:34):
that way.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, Matthew, thank you very much for that. Kathleen 'LASKI,
how do you respond to Matthew? What do you think
of that story?
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (23:41):
I think it's been really you know, I teach currently
at at the college level, and I think the expectation
that students have coming in is that this is my
ticket and that my college degree is going to kind
of deliver me at the door of my first job,
and that is not happening for so many students. I mean,
(24:03):
engineering students are actually in the best boat because they,
you know, they get the internships. You know, employers come
to the school looking for interns, and that's been the
practice at least in you know, in fields like cybersecurity
or nursing or teaching. You know, that are high demand fields.
But for many, many, many fields, a lot of my
students are you know, they can't get internships. And now everybody,
(24:28):
I mean since since the caller went to school he
said he finished in twenty fourteen, it's become more acute
now that employers expect you to come out with with
or to come to apply for a job with at
least two to three years of experience. And as a
chicken and egg problem, how do you get that experience,
you know, unless you're in one of those high demand
(24:49):
agers where you know, the employers are asking you to
come for the summer because they're checking you out, because
they're trying to you know, build their pipeline or you know,
find their talent early and ais make it's worse. I
don't know if we'll get to that later, but it
is making that situation worse. So I think it's causing
families who are hearing this from their friends and older relatives,
(25:09):
it's causing them to pause about you know, pulling the
trigger at least on an expensive, more expensive degree.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Right by the way, Jenninapolatano, what do you think it
would take to start bringing the cost down or will
they ever come down the cost of going to college?
They just keep going up.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Well, as we mentioned earlier in this show, you know,
the primary cost of college is personnel. It's the faculty
and staff, and then you have facilities, and some of
the facilities are extraordinarily expensive. Laboratories, for example, are very
expensive to own and operate, and so that's the driver
(25:48):
of the cost. You know, I think as a nation
we need to refocus ourselves on what we had in
the post World War two era, which was the growth
of public universities, where the states paid the bulk of
the cost of the universities out of the recognition that
their states would be wealthier and healthier if they had
(26:11):
more college educated students. You know, the basic source of
revenue for public universities is either the state or tuition.
And when the state cuts down, which almost every state has,
including California, then you know, tuition goes up. There has
to be a balance in there somewhere. And I think
if we as a country really think, you know, what
(26:34):
we need as a country to be strong, and to
be strong, we need to be well prepared and well educated.
And that is a public investment that we make, not
just in students, but in our society at large.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Tulliver, what is coming in online?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, this is great because that sort of piggybacks on
what you just said. So Tom Detroit says, if you
think education is expensive, try ignorance. Andrew in Chicago says,
our current administration does a clown show the idea of
giving money to trade schools. It's a known fact that
for profit trade schools have been ripping off the FEDS
for decades. I didn't know that. And then Lisa in
Kansas City says, does the fact that you're having this
(27:11):
conversation mean that this country is sliding away from an
expectation of superiority to mediocrity. There's a bunch of other
comments that came in, but try to keep them under
six paragraphs.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
You guys, you don't have to use chat GPT to
write the comments. Let's let's go get a call in
Kurt in Chicago. Kurt, do you think college education is
worth the cost?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah, thank you for taking my call. I guess I
would say if the sole evaluative criterion for determining whether
or not a college education is worth it or worth
the money is how much money you're going to make
throughout the course of your career, you're probably completely missing
the point. College is not just about making a living.
It's about making a life. A liberal education is about
moral formation, ethical reasoning, citizenship, the ability to live as
(28:00):
a productive, responsible, thoughtful member of the commonwealth. Americans should
think more about making college affordable and accessible than they
should about making.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
It worthless interesting point, Kurt, thank you for that. And
Jennet of Platano, I know you have to leave in
a couple of minutes, but what are your thoughts on
what Kurt has to say. There's so much more to
college than just the classes that get you the degree
that maybe get you the job later.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
I agree with Kurk and you know, I don't want
to sound to Pollyanna, but look, there's a lot that
happens in those years when you're getting education beyond high school.
And and as I've said before, it's education, it's preparation,
it's maturation. All of that is occurring. And again, the
United States has been known, it's one of the things
(28:44):
we're known for throughout the world is our higher education system.
And it is an incredibly diverse menu of different types
of institutions, and so students have a lot to select from.
But there are many, many, many excellent institutions of higher
education in this country. That's why students from around the
(29:05):
world want to come here.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I want to ask you one more question before you go,
because I'm sorry we're bouncing around from topic to topic here,
but you know, it's not every day you have the
former president of the University of California and Homeland Security secretary.
So let me just ask you, how worried are you
about America's position as the higher education capital of the world,
given all the threats coming at it right now that
(29:30):
we may lose that slot.
Speaker 5 (29:32):
Well, I'm deeply concerned, you know, the US higher education
as it's one of the areas where we have a
trade surplus, not a trade deficit, if you want to
put it in the current administration's periscope. It is a
(29:53):
talent magnet and we bring talented young people from around
the world. Many of them end up staying. They start
their own businesses, They do research and are in the labs,
and are very can create and commit their energies to
the creativity of this country. And this whole sort of
(30:14):
we don't want international students. We're just going to cancel
their visas, We're going to make it as hard as
possible for them to come, et cetera. I don't know
what the long term strategy on that is, but to me,
it's not a good long term strategy.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
That is Janet of Politano, former president of the University
of California, Thank you so much for being with us
this hour. Thanks Jeremy and Kathleen Delaski is staying with
us as we take your calls at eight four four
four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three
three five three you can reach out at Listen to
the Middle, dot com and Tolliver. Plenty of notable figures
(30:49):
have made the point that you don't need a college
education to achieve success in life.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Well yeah. President Obama offered that advice to a group
of manufacturing workers in Waukeshaw and ex who live in
a Waukashaw and Walkshaw, Wisconsin back in twenty fourteen. Listen
to this, Folks can make a lot more potentially with
skilled manufacturing or the trades then they might with an
art history degree.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
Uh now, nothing wrong with our history. Agree.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I love our history.
Speaker 14 (31:16):
So I don't want to get a bunch of emails
from everybody.
Speaker 15 (31:19):
I'm just saying you you can make a really good
living and have a great career without getting a four
year college education, as long as you get the skills.
Speaker 6 (31:29):
In the training that you need.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
See Jeremy, I study jazz and journalism. Now I'm here
as a DJ on the Middle, it'll work it out.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
There you go. It all worked out. And Obama, by
the way, went to Harvard and Columbia and he did
not study our history. We'll be right back with more
of the middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson,
and this hour we're asking you if a college education
is still worth the cost. You can call us at
eight four four four Middle, that's eight four four four
six four three three five three, or you can reach
(31:57):
out at Listen to the Middle dot com. We are
joined by my Education Design Lab founder Kathleen d'laski, and
we are taking your calls. And there are some calls
on the lines right now. Let's go to Christine Is
in Chicago. Christine, what do you think is college education
is still worth the cost?
Speaker 13 (32:15):
Well, I have to I have to say no. And
my reasoning is I went to college a little untraditionally,
I didn't go right out of high school. I went
to a small public university in Chicago, and for all
four years without any loan, scholarships or grants, my education
was forty two thousand dollars. That was what I ended
(32:38):
up paying. And so now the fact that the costs
have increased so much. Has My question is has the
improvement in the actual education increased to that extent as well.
Now I would definitely not encourage someone not to go
to school, but I really wonder, really, why are these
costs increasing so much, and why are we making it
(33:00):
so difficult for these kids to get the education that
we really they really should get and it should be
available to everybody.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Christine, thank you, Kathleen. What do you think?
Speaker 8 (33:11):
Yeah, Christine is right, a lot of us are kind
of living on the nostalgia of yesteryear in terms of
like when we went to college and it was affordable.
I mean, I didn't have to take loans out. I
paid for myself to do my graduate degree at Harvard,
and that when I think back on that, I mean
I didn't, you know, I had loans for a little bit,
(33:32):
but it was you know, maybe five years I was
paying loans back, and that, you know, that felt very
doable when you're doing that cost benefit analysis. Now, when
families sit around, you know, the kitchen table and are
trying to figure that out, it's middle class families that
are getting squeezed the most. And that's because, you know,
if you're very low income if your family makes like
(33:53):
a less than forty thousand, you can qualify for you know,
the grants, the federal grants, those are still very much available.
And if you're you know, if your parents are pretty wealthy,
then you're you know, you're that's also okay because you know,
the student isn't usually paying, but everybody in the middle
is squeezed, and so that's you know, you see a
(34:13):
lot of the people in middle class and even wealthier
classes are the ones that are actually stepping back from
going to college because they're doing the cost benefit analysis
of of do they want to be in debt and
how much money are they going to make? So that's
you know, I mean, I'm still very much in favor
of what we talked about before the break, which is
(34:34):
college has wonderful you know, quote side effects in terms
of you know, the critical thinking, you learn how you know,
you learn about historical context, you make lifelong connections. Those
things are wonderful. But we have to figure out how
to provide those things at a lower cost.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah. Absolutely. Let's go to Aaron who's in Sandy, Utah
erin Welcome to the Middle. What do you think about
the cost of college education?
Speaker 14 (35:00):
I do agree that I think depending on the school
that you go to, that the cost can be exorbitant
for some families. We've actually made a career change in
my own family. My husband went from probably a much
more lucrative career in medicine to teaching, and so now
he teaches history out of college. So he went back
(35:23):
to college and got a PhD in history after getting
a podiatric medical degree, and so we still have those
medical school debts, but by selling our practice, we paid
for his PhD. But and certainly we're not at the
earning potential we could be. So I wish that there
were easier way for people to make career transitions if
(35:43):
they wanted to. But in his teaching history, the school
he teaches that is a it's a four year college,
but it's also more focused on you know, medical assisting cybersecurity.
It's more trade focused, and he's the history teacher. And
we're finding that there's a lot of people who benefit.
(36:04):
Like you were saying, from that critical thinking, there's a
lot of I think there's a there's a growing ignorance
of history and of being able to look at information
and determine what is what is true and what is
not true, and how to interact with this world of
social media.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, which is so important right now, and it doesn't
seem like everybody has that knowledge, Aaron, thank you for that.
It brings up an interesting point, Kathleen, which is what
about when people change careers after they they get a
degree in one thing, and especially if they go to
a trade school and then they get a degree in something,
and then they change careers later in.
Speaker 8 (36:41):
Life, right, and we have to make it easier for
career changers. I mean, that's one of the group when
I go through I have a chapter in the book
where I say, Okay, who does need college anymore? You know,
at this point, with technology and the you know, the
sort of short life span of skills these days, who
should go to college and who shouldn't. Certainly people who
(37:02):
want to be doctors, lawyers, nurses, teachers need that license,
and those licenses require degrees. But increasingly we have a
lot of careers where, particularly if you're a career switcher,
you could, like my own daughter did this right, You
could switch into a career by going to a couple
of boot camps or taking a getting an industry certification,
(37:24):
and she got into digital marketing without going to university
as you know, like a thirty year old. So you
know that's something that we're trying to make it easier
in community colleges or in particular, I think setting themselves
up now because they recognize what's going on. They were
losing so many students. Now they're trying to set themselves
(37:45):
up to provide this step ladder approach where people can
come in and out of learning experiences throughout their working lives.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Well, and I know there are these like six week
startup institutes even where you can go in and basically
do a mini business school and meet everybody in a
certain industry and then you know, learn a few things
that you need to know, but basically get get your
foot in the door and get into a new new job.
Alyssa is calling from Detroit. Alissa, what do you think
(38:14):
is college education worth it?
Speaker 15 (38:17):
Yes? I love what you just spoke about because I'm
thirty one and I'm shifting into a law degree and
I'm currently at a community college just outside of Detroit,
so I'm following the path. So I just talked about
where it feels necessary to go into some type of
debt to get this.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Well, and especially with a law degree, because you've got
to have that. You can't practice without it.
Speaker 15 (38:43):
Right, And I dropped out of college at twenty one.
I went to Hollywood, I got into producing, and then
COVID hit in twenty twenty. I was just around twenty six,
twenty seven years old. And that's not an industry where
you get to climb up a ladder and become more
and more of an expert and it's a safehold. So
(39:04):
that really taught me that I wanted something I could
be an expert in and grow from that and have
a security in my expertise, which is where I think
a degree is really helpful because what I'm investing in
there is technically or historically a payback to that that
I can grow in.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
And is it costing you a lot of money to
go to this community college?
Speaker 15 (39:26):
Lesson right now?
Speaker 16 (39:29):
No.
Speaker 15 (39:30):
Actually, Michigan created a program called Michigan Reconnect for people
like me that have not been in school but started
it and it allows me to have free tuition until
I complete my associates, which has been the reason that
I went back to school. And now I'm nervous I'm
heading into finalizing my bachelor's so it's going to cost
(39:51):
a bit to do that, but I'm actually choosing schools.
Speaker 7 (39:55):
That cost a lot less and.
Speaker 15 (39:59):
It'll look different on paper, but I'm going to have
the paper. And That's been a bit of an ego
process for me, but it feels right because I'm just
seeing debt everywhere, so that's too scary to get more of.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Alyssa, thank you so much for that call. And Kathleen,
what do you think when you hear that? And Alyssa also,
you know, making the decision to go to community college,
and so many people when they're getting into their junior
or senior year in high school and they're just looking
at these the big name schools that's what they want
(40:33):
to do, and they're not maybe considering some other places
that might be a lot cheaper, less debt, less financial aid,
et cetera.
Speaker 8 (40:39):
Absolutely, I mean, Alyssa's making a really smart choice because
she's she's going for those like first maybe two years
or a year and a half because you can speed
it up. She's getting the associate's degree inexpensively and then
the bachelor's degree will be more costly, but she's only
going to maybe spend two years doing that because she's
also got to you know, save up for law school.
So increasingly colleges because they're seeing enrollment declines, they are
(41:05):
trying to work with people and states, like she mentioned Michigan,
many states are offering these kinds of programs now where
they're trying to offer either free tuition for you know,
people making under families making like under eighty thousand or
or or other other ways for to help help you
game the system. And the information like on you know,
(41:28):
the internet and through AI is so much better than
it used to be that you can really, you know,
you can really like work yourself a good deal and
not pay as much as you know, this sticker price
sounds like it will cost you.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
When you say that the information AI. And we had
a caller earlier who said, you can get so much
information online now, but isn't the same as what you
would be getting with a college education.
Speaker 8 (41:50):
Well, yeah, so that that caller was referring to, like
can't you learn skills like di y and learn them
on YouTube? And I interviewed some folks in the book
who kind of make their path that way. It works
for certain fields, and it works for certain types of people. Right,
you if you're like a tinkerer, and you you know,
you don't want to sit in a classroom and you're
not good at like you know, you don't you don't
(42:11):
want to deal with that, or you have a full
time job, which is many many many people they there are.
You know, these are nice workarounds, nice hacks to a
college degree in certain fields, particularly tech and you know,
some forms of like allied healthcare where you're learning. I mean,
eventually you have to get a license, but you know,
(42:32):
you can learn the first parts of certain roles that
are pretty hot by yourself online. It is possible. It's
not preferable, but you know, many people, you know, it's
like sixty five percent of people have to work their
way through school. And you know, we need to we
need to create college in a way that accommodates them,
(42:55):
and we haven't done that in the past, and that's
really starting to happen now and COVID helps speed that
up and so more people have access.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Jeremy, I got two quick comments comes about AI and
learning on your own. Okay, so William says AI is
replacing clerical work, administrative jobs, middle management, excuse me, and
anything you can use Chatback's ai to do the work
for is going to be cut hand skills are the future,
at least until they develop robots that can do the job,
maybe in a few decades. Then one listener says, this
is a Frank Zappa quote. Frank Zappa. If you want
(43:26):
to get laid, go to college. If you want to learn,
go to the library. So do it yourself, says.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Fay to go. Larissa is calling from Aurora, Illinois. Hi, Larissa,
what do you think?
Speaker 5 (43:39):
So?
Speaker 17 (43:39):
I am the proud parent of a twenty twenty five
high school graduate.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Congratulators and thank you.
Speaker 17 (43:47):
We've just finished school.
Speaker 10 (43:50):
But he graduated with all of the licensing and certifications
for restaurant management.
Speaker 13 (43:57):
Wow.
Speaker 17 (43:58):
And that's part of the high school program. His particular
high school has all sorts of trades that you know,
they press most of the high.
Speaker 10 (44:11):
School classes into the first three years, and then that
senior year is spent learning a trade. They've got kids
doing welding. My freshman student was in carpentry and is
doing carpentry too next year. I mean, it really is
(44:32):
pretty impressive. And I understand that not all high schools
are equipped to handle that or offer that, but I
really think that it's amazing that he is graduated out
of high school and has a job in restaurant management.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
So he's not going to college.
Speaker 17 (44:52):
He is not going to college.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Wow Lyisa, thank you for that, Kathleen d Laski that
you write about. Is this dual enrollment? Is that what
you would call?
Speaker 8 (45:01):
Yeah? Yet, yes, it's two. There's two trends in the
book are right about that this caller has brought up.
But one of them is that now many many students
are getting part of their AA degree, part of their
associate's degree while they're in high school. That is a
huge trend that hasn't gotten a lot of coverage, and
it's because states are making it possible and paying for
you to take college classes. So that's one trend. And
(45:22):
the second is a kind of a revival of the
career in technical education in high school where some districts
and some states are trying now to kind of bake
it back into your high school day in a way
that for the last thirty years wasn't a thing. You know,
(45:43):
we had the College for All movement, and we all
had to be, you know, doubling down on math and
science and getting ready for the college application process. And
now there's kind of a realization because we're you know,
blurring the lines between these kinds of jobs that you
kind of need both and that gives you more choice
and more optionality. It's not to say that, you know,
(46:04):
the restaurant manager may not go ahead and get a
degree at some point, but they have you know, job,
their job ready coming out of high school. But they
also can be on a college track. That's kind of
the new the new thinking in twenty twenty five at
high schools.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
I'm going to sneak one more call in and it
is going to be Patrick in Raleigh, North Carolina. Patrick,
go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 16 (46:29):
Hi, Yes, thanks for having me. One thing I thought
that may have been missed this evening, where if we're
talking about the costs associated with going to college versus
not going to college, one of those costs are you know,
the social costs of not going to college. You know,
whether we like it or not, for better for worse,
there does seem to be a stratification in our society
where the college educated ju sit on top of that.
(46:52):
And until we grapple with that and whether that system
makes sense, you know, I think the costs will always
be pretty high for folks that want want to be
you know, taken seriously by the people on the top
of that strata, you know, and if they don't go
to college, then it may be difficult for them to
do so. So I think, you know, we should we
ought to consider those social costs when considering whether college
(47:16):
is worth the cost or not.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Did you go to college, Patrick.
Speaker 16 (47:20):
I did, And I find myself having implicit bias against
you know, tradesmen who are frankly probably making more than me.
But I find myself having implicit bias against them, and
all my friends do as well. And it's something that
I think our society needs to grapple with if we're
going to, you know, make this adjustment towards making college
not worth it, because there are, you know, as of
(47:40):
right now, there are social costs of not going to college.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
A great point to end on, Patrick, Kathleen DLASKI, how
do you handle that? How do you deal with what
Patrick is talking about there and just changing the mindset
of people if you are going to actually change society
and say, you know, some people can feel perfectly good
going to a two year trade school or not going
to college. At all, or going to college and not
(48:05):
going into a lot of debt or whatever.
Speaker 8 (48:08):
Well, this is exactly why in my book and my
belief in the organization I run, we try to push
the notion that, you know, college should be able to
be to house all these different pieces so that the
you know, the stigma that comes with not going to college,
that you know, why can't some of the trade programs
(48:28):
and apprenticeships and industry certifications and the degree be offered
under the umbrella of college and and have access to
the funding structure that is only reserved for people who
do university degrees currently. That's the system that has to change,
and I think then the stigma gets, you know, falls
away with that.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Well, I want to thank you so much, Kathleen Delaski,
founder of the Education Design Lab, and your book the
name is not right in front of me, tell us
what your book title is?
Speaker 8 (49:01):
Who Needs College Anymore?
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Who Needs College Anymore? And also we've been speaking with
a former University of California president, Janta Polaitano. Kathleen, thank
you so much, thank.
Speaker 8 (49:10):
You for having me, great, great conversation, great questions.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
And don't forget the Middle is available as a podcast
in partnership with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart Apple wherever
you listen to podcasts and come in in to your feet.
In the next few days an episode of our weekly
podcast Extra one thing Trump did and we're going to
be looking at what's going on with air traffic control. Yesh,
I don't know if I want to hear that one,
But next week we'll be back here talking about the
role of Christianity in our politics.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
As always, you can call in at eight four four
four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three
three five three. You can also reach out at Listen
to the Middle dot com. You can also sign up
for our free weekly newsletter and support us with a
tax deductible donation.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmustas, John barth, Anakadeshler and
Brandon Condritz are Technical director is Steve mork. Thanks to
our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and the hundreds
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people across the country to listen to the Middle, I'm
(50:11):
Jeremy Hobson and I will talk to you next week.
Hey Middle podcast listeners, Hey Toliver. Have a little announcement
just before we get started, which is that public radio,
which is a big part of our show. We're on
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(00:20):
so what we're asking you to do, listeners is help
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It takes a lot of work to do the show,
(00:41):
and so we appreciate your contribution right now at Listen
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us through this kind of rough period at the moment. Okay,
we'll make it, Yeah, we'll make it, but with your help,
please enjoy the show. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy
Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver I
(01:04):
am very excited about this show, but as you know,
I have something else on my mind right now. I'm
about to embark on the biggest physical feat of my
life in just a matter of days.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
What was it, Oh, you're going to the bike ride.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Bik do the Final AIDS life cycle ride from San
Francisco to La It is seven days, five hundred and
sixty miles to raise money for HIV prevention and care
for people with the disease. It's been amazing to train
for it over the last several months, meet people who've
done it for years. You can find out more about
it that listen to the Middle dot com and when
we are not live next week and instead on tape,
(01:35):
just back off and know that I'm exhausted and i
am living on electrolite packets.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Off.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Okay, So this hour we are talking about a college
education and whether it is still worth the cost, which
is now about thirty thousand dollars a year for a
public school, about sixty for a private school. Now, college
graduates do make about sixty percent more money on average
than high school graduates, but often have a lot of
debt to pay off, and a job is certainly not
(02:01):
guaranteed depending on your major. So we want to hear
from you, is a college education worth the cost? Or
number is eight four four four middle that's eight four
four four six four three three five three. Get to
that in just a moment. But first, last week on
the show, we asked you about diversity, equity, and inclusion,
which the Trump administration has basically banned from the federal government.
(02:22):
Here are some of the voicemails we got after the show.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
My name is Lee Williams. I'm calling from Saint Louis.
If not DEI, then we're back to segregation like it
was fifty to sixty years ago. If not DEI, then
every hire that's called a merit hire means a white meal.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
My name is Mesa. I am from Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, and
in my opinion, DEI is unreplaceable.
Speaker 6 (02:47):
There's no DEI or what equation in society today.
Speaker 7 (02:51):
I'm Jason, I'm in Kansas. I actually generally support a
lot of DEI practices, but what I don't support is
essentially giving favor to people that aren't white. It's honestly
just not fair in my opinion, and especially some of
my friends don't like the idea that, Okay, I'm a
black doctor, but I want to make sure that I
don't have that little asterix that I got in because
(03:13):
of my color over somebody who is more deserving.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in, and you can
hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
to podcasts. So now of our question this hour, is
a college education still worth the cost? Tolliver the phone
number please.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write into us at Listen to the Middle dot com.
You can also comment on our live stream, our YouTube,
our TikTok, our Instagram. I'm looking at them all.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
So allow to this Now joining me this hour former
University of California President Janet Napolitano, who also served as
Secretary of Homeland Security under President Obama and the governor
of Arizona and now directs the Center for Security and
Politics at U SEE Berkeley. Secretary Napolaitano, great to have
you on the show. Thank you and Education Design Lab
founder Kathleen Dulaski's with us as well. She's the author
(04:03):
of the book Who Needs College Anymore? Kathleen, welcome to you.
Speaker 8 (04:07):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
So before we get to the funds, Jennet and Politano,
as we have this conversation about college, President Trump is
targeting the oldest university in America, that would be Harvard,
taking away government funding, billions of dollars, trying to revoke
visas for international students, remove the tax exempt status. As
the former president of the University of California, what is
your message to Harvard or to President Trump right now?
Speaker 5 (04:33):
Well, my message to Harvard is keep reforming yourself and
stand strong. And my message to the Trump administration is
what kind of future do you envision for the United
States without the vital higher education sector that we have.
And it's not just Harvard, I mean the Ivy League
(04:53):
is a TDtv tiny percentage of higher education in the
United States. It gets the bulk of public comment, but
it is so so tiny. Higher education in the United
States is a combination of private universities, liberal arts universities,
grand public universities, state universities like the University of California.
(05:15):
There are so called research universities, there are so called
comprehensive universities. There are two year community colleges. There are
numerous kind of trade types of education beyond high school.
I think the question, in a way for today should
be not only is a college education worth it, but
(05:36):
how we measure worth?
Speaker 8 (05:37):
And also.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Is an education beyond high school really necessary for the
world in which these young people are going to enter?
Speaker 1 (05:48):
And do you think it is?
Speaker 5 (05:50):
Oh? For sure? I mean, you know, look, college education.
You know, there are lots of different tracks you can take.
There's a big menu, but it really should be viewed
as a time of maturation, a time of preparation, a
time of exploration. And it hits for most people right
(06:15):
at that age where you know, they're just about to
be independent of their families, but they need to grow,
they need to expand, and they need to prepare. And frankly,
K twelve education in this era is not enough.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Kathleen Laski. One of the things President Trump has proposed
is to take the billions in federal grants from Harvard
and distribute them to trade schools around the country. As
someone who has written about the alternatives to four year colleges.
What do you think of that?
Speaker 8 (06:46):
Well, I do think that trade school has gotten a
bad rap over the years, and we're now at a
point when college has become so expensive for many families,
or at least the perception that is expensive, and often
there are very many there are many affordable college options,
but because the perception is that it's very expensive, people
are looking at, you know, what else could I do
(07:07):
to prepare myself specifically for careers, because you know, most
people today are saying that they go to college to
prepare for careers. It used to be that they would
say they went to college to you know, for the
adultification process that Janet is describing. But now they want
they want results, they want jobs, and they're seeing that,
you know, a lot of the degrees that people can
(07:29):
come out with are not producing jobs. So you're seeing
a lot of press right now about oh, you know,
let's all become welders and we need more electricians and
HVAC people. But you know, part of why I wrote
the book is that it's all, you know, the work
world and the work landscape is changing so much because
of technology that we don't really need to think of
(07:51):
this binary choice between trade school or college or nothing. Right,
technologies blurring the lines between all these jobs and high
schools are starting to show us some of the options
at how you can learn both. You can learn cloud
computing while you're in high school. You can do an
apprenticeship either instead of or during college, and you can
(08:16):
get industry certifications that you know, the kind of line
you up to be, you know, job ready, whether you
go to college or not. But I'm not telling people
not to go to college. I'm just saying the world
is changing and colleges themselves will be offering a lot
more options over the coming decades, as well as there
being you know, non college options for people.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
Politic President Jerry Jermy, I think this proposal that President
Trump made, let's take money from Harvard and give it
to trade schools. It's kind of a classic administration move.
Let's just divide. Let's just divide people and have them
competing against each other. If he really wants to build
trade schools, invest in trade schools.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
But you know, don't you don't have to take it
from Harvard to do that.
Speaker 5 (09:02):
You're saying you don't have to take it away from
Harvard to do that, So I think, you know, I'm
all for education, and particularly post high school education. You know,
let's let's build on it, and let's create an expectation
in our young people that they are going to go
beyond high school in order to really be fully prepared
for the for the coming years.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
I want to just ask you about one more thing
that the president is doing, because it does get to
what we're talking about here, and it has to do
the international students. There are more than a million international
students in the US at colleges and universities. They often
pay full freight and bring a lot of money in
for the colleges Janet to Politano. Are they driving up
costs or helping lower costs for other students?
Speaker 5 (09:44):
Well, I think for several reasons they don't drive up costs.
Costs at University of California is a is by and
large a four year institutions are one, meaning it's heavily
research based. We do have a certain percentage of international students,
(10:04):
and one of the ways we are able to keep
tuition costs down for in state California students is because
we have out of state students, which include out of
state in the United States, but also national students who
are paying full a full tuition load at the University
of California. If you come from a family that makes
less than eighty thousand a year, you pay no tuition
(10:26):
to attend the leading public university system in the country.
So I would say on the kind of relative valuation,
if we want to use the term valuation, these are
young people from around the world. By and large, what
they do is help support domestic students.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Kathin DELASKI why has college gotten to be so expensive
for a public university? I was looking back in nineteen
sixty three it was two hundred and forty three dollars
a year, which was about twenty four hundred adjusted for inflation.
But now it's almost thirty thousand for the for the
public universities.
Speaker 8 (11:02):
Well, the biggest reason, and I served for eight years
on the board of a public university in Virginia. For
for many decades, we we thought of the state and
to some extent, the federal government as investing in higher
education as at least a partial entitlement, right, and that
(11:23):
that investment has shifted, it's actually flipped. It used to be,
you know, government funded about two thirds of public education,
and now that model has slipped to about one third.
Of course, it varies by states. California, I think supports
more than most states do. But it's you know, more
of the cost is borne by families. You know, you
(11:44):
always hear about, at least in college circles. Everybody says, oh,
they're they're putting you know, climbing climbing gyms or climbing
walls and lazy rivers at colleges. And that's what's driving
up the cost is that, you know, parents expect it
to be like you know, the Ritz Carlton. That's just
not true. I mean it's it's human. It's you know,
human human costs of personnel and you know, keeping the
(12:08):
buildings renovated and that kind of thing. That's what's driving
up the cost of college. And with less public investment.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
You know, they put a lazy river in when I
was in college, but I never actually got into it. Really,
I don't get to from that Tulliver myth. Yeah, no,
it's real. One of the most famous college commencement addresses ever,
Tolliver was given by Steve Jobs, the founder of Apple,
back in two thousand and five at Stanford.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
Yeah, he talked about going to read College, which he
said was almost as expensive as Stanford.
Speaker 9 (12:39):
After six months, I couldn't see the value in it.
I had no idea what I wanted to do with
my life, and no idea how college was going to
help me figure it out. And here I was spending
all the money my parents had saved their entire life.
So I decided to drop out and trust that it
would all work out. Okay, it was pretty scary at
the time, but look back, it was one of the
(13:01):
best decisions I ever made. The minute I dropped out,
I could stop taking the required classes that didn't interest
me and begin dropping in on the ones that looked
far more interesting and Tlliver.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
One of the classes he took was calligraphy, and he
actually used that to create the typeface that was in
the early Macintosh computers.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Oh wow, I remember that typeface as a young boy.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
It was fun to watch that Steve Jobs clip. I
have to say, it's so cool to watch him, watch
him talk. We will be right back with more of
the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If
you're just tuning in the Middle is a national call
in show. We're focused on elevating voices from the middle, geographically, politically, philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
(13:46):
This hour, we're asking if a college education is still
worth the cost? Tolliver, what is the number to call in?
Speaker 2 (13:51):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on all social media platforms.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Or I'm joined by former University of California President Jennant
of Polaitano, an education Design Lab founder Kathleen d'laski, and
the lines are filling up. But let me ask you
one more thing before we go to the fundes Secretary
Napolitano as somebody who has run a lot of big organizations.
When you hire, does the college degree matter to you?
Speaker 5 (14:22):
It depends on the job at most, at the level
of which I'm doing the hiring, and for people doing
the jobs they're being hired for. Yes, a college degree matters.
Oftentimes a postgraduate degree matters. But there are many jobs
further down in large organizations that don't require a college education.
But I will tell you more and more they require
(14:44):
something beyond high school.
Speaker 1 (14:47):
All right, let's get to the phones. Ryan is calling
from Pittsburgh. Ryan, go ahead. Do you think a college
education is still worth the cost?
Speaker 6 (14:56):
Hey, good evening. I work at a research university here
in Pennsylvania, and I'm increasingly seeing that for probably more
than half of the students it's not. But I think
that an experience at a two year community college would be.
So I'm increasingly seeing like community colleges is maybe the
new land of opportunity or post high school education. But
(15:19):
I think that definitely means we need to stop having
this cast like mentality and looking down at community colleges
as where failed PhDs go to teach and fail students
end up because it's open to enrollment. We very much
have to change our mindset if we're going to re
envision the role and value and potential contributions that community
(15:40):
colleges have to play to society.
Speaker 10 (15:43):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Thank you for that. Kathain d'laski, what do you think
about that? Do you do you believe that people look
down on community colleges.
Speaker 8 (15:50):
I think that historically has been the case, but I
feel like the community college movement is having a moment
right now that is where a lot of the increase
enrollment is coming from right now post COVID. It's kind
of exciting what the community colleges are as kind of
seeing themselves as talent brokers that are becoming more agile
(16:10):
in their regions. And I know my organization, Education Design
Lab works with about one hundred community colleges around the
country working on what we call micro pathways. They're shorter
term versions of college that result in a credential and
we've designed them with employers. So your caller is absolutely
(16:30):
right that that is a great way to both save
money and really it sort of test out a career
or career switch later in life. A lot of the
students who are coming to community colleges are in their
twenties and thirties and forties and fifties. We see for
these short programs, you know, people right up to you know,
what you would think was near retirement age. It's quite exciting.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Let's go to Colby, who's in Houston. Colby, Welcome to
the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 11 (16:59):
Yeah, just wanted to say that I think that considering
the cost of college right now, that if you are
going to go that you should really have a good
idea of what kind of career you want to have,
and because you know, I went to college a while back,
and I feel like a lot of the jobs I've
had since then, my degree didn't really matter so much.
(17:22):
And whether or not I got hired.
Speaker 1 (17:24):
What about the other things that you learned in college
or the connections that you made, were those important to
your career?
Speaker 11 (17:31):
You know, I made some good connections. You know, I
met a lot of good people. I imagine that if
I did not go to college, my life would have
gone in a not so great direction. But also I
know that college was you know, at the time, it
seemed really expensive, and now it's even more so when
(17:51):
a lot of this information that you would really want
is easily accessible.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Thank you for that, quot be Secretary to Polatano. What
do you think about that? I imagine you've come across many,
many students at the University of California who came in
wanting to do one thing and then left doing something
completely different.
Speaker 5 (18:11):
Yeah, that's fairly common, because remember you're dealing a lot
with seventeen eighteen year olds, and they do come in
with firm ideas and then in the course of their
college career they find other areas they take classes that
they never thought about that weren't offered in high school,
(18:33):
and they get interested in something else. And so that's
part of the maturation or adultization, I think is the
word Kathleen used, that can happen in a good college education,
as you get exposed to different things and are able
to follow that passion. Now I'm not saying here that
(18:54):
you should go to college and have no awareness of
what a career be, what a job would be, et cetera.
Of course you should, but it doesn't mean you have
to make those decisions from day one. In fact, I
would advise against.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
It, Kathleen to LASKI. By the way, one of the
things that the Trump administration has talked about in terms
of like where money is going to colleges and where
they don't want it to go is they'll bring up
things like LGBTQ studies or you know, French literature as
things that are just useless in today's economy. What do
you think about that.
Speaker 8 (19:29):
Well, I won't I won't comment on on what what
President Trump is doing in that regard except to say
that there is a movement and it's also going on
in the States and was going on before uh President
Trump came into office, whereby states are saying we want
to pay for performance. In other words, we want to
(19:52):
fund programs and degrees that result in an increase in
your earnings when you come out. States like Texas have
passed have passed laws that other states are looking at.
And so what you're seeing happen in some of those
states is the degrees you know, gender studies or psychology
or things which don't immediately lead to earnings increase are
(20:15):
being you know, I've seen in a few cases those
programs are being sunseted, and that you know, that could
become a trend. I don't know what Janet thinks about that,
but that's something that we're all watching.
Speaker 5 (20:27):
Well, what you think of too, is part of it
is is you know, some some states have a very
narrow view of what constitutes a higher education curriculum. But
on the on the other hand, for some of the
majors you mentioned, you know, demand in part is coming
into play here, and in fact, the humanity subjects and
(20:54):
to some degree the social science subjects in higher ed
are seeing students go elsewhere for their majors and and
so therefore over time they cut back those departments. So
it's a combination of things. Now in the future it
may grow back again.
Speaker 8 (21:10):
You don't know.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
But it's it is, it is not. It is a
function in some states of a state policy, state law
what can be taught, how it should be taught, which
I think is anathema to higher education. But it's also
a function over time of student demand.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Let's go to Matthew who is in Floresville, Texas. Hi, Matthew,
do you think a college education is worth the cost?
Speaker 12 (21:39):
It's worth the experience. I thank you for having me on.
It's worth the experience for sure. Is it worth the cost? No,
I don't think so. And I think a lot of
it has to do with my specific engineers degree that
I chose, but I think a lot of it has
to do with just, you know, the way the school
(21:59):
is ructured, you know. I think a lot of universities
probably the same way.
Speaker 13 (22:03):
You know.
Speaker 12 (22:04):
You know, especially in engineering, there's a lot of math involved,
a lot of science involved, and they give you a
fifty minute session to learn, you know, what you're supposed
to learn for that that day or that week. And
I spent a lot of time in the math. Lew
Lets say that you.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Know, and now and when do you have Do you
have debt from from your schooling?
Speaker 12 (22:24):
Absolutely?
Speaker 3 (22:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (22:26):
I went to school from went to school when I
was twenty six, and I went when I was in
from twenty ten to twenty fourteen. As when I graduated,
and it was they can they called it a four
year program, but it was really about a five and
a half year. I did nineteen plus credits, you know,
twenty plus credits most years, took summer classes just to
(22:47):
graduate in four years. No, I the death that I
left with, you know, and I worked the whole time
I was in college, and the death I left with
was six closest sie.
Speaker 1 (23:01):
Wow. And let me just ask you just real quick, Matthew,
like you haven't been able to get a good, good
paying job with that engineering degree?
Speaker 12 (23:09):
No did I did? I got a well, I wouldn't
say it's a good paying job.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
When it came out.
Speaker 12 (23:14):
I should have been making about fifteen to twenty grand
more than when I started, because I you know, like
I said, I went when I went to college when
I was twenty six. Right right when I was thirty,
my wife there got married. So when I got a job,
it was a good job. But it wasn't paying what
I thought was going to pay. I was making more
than that when I was eighteen. Wow, just put it
(23:34):
that way.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Yeah, Matthew, thank you very much for that. Kathleen 'LASKI,
how do you respond to Matthew? What do you think
of that story?
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (23:41):
I think it's been really you know, I teach currently
at at the college level, and I think the expectation
that students have coming in is that this is my
ticket and that my college degree is going to kind
of deliver me at the door of my first job,
and that is not happening for so many students. I mean,
(24:03):
engineering students are actually in the best boat because they,
you know, they get the internships. You know, employers come
to the school looking for interns, and that's been the
practice at least in you know, in fields like cybersecurity
or nursing or teaching. You know, that are high demand fields.
But for many, many, many fields, a lot of my
students are you know, they can't get internships. And now everybody,
(24:28):
I mean since since the caller went to school he
said he finished in twenty fourteen, it's become more acute
now that employers expect you to come out with with
or to come to apply for a job with at
least two to three years of experience. And as a
chicken and egg problem, how do you get that experience,
you know, unless you're in one of those high demand
(24:49):
agers where you know, the employers are asking you to
come for the summer because they're checking you out, because
they're trying to you know, build their pipeline or you know,
find their talent early and ais make it's worse. I
don't know if we'll get to that later, but it
is making that situation worse. So I think it's causing
families who are hearing this from their friends and older relatives,
(25:09):
it's causing them to pause about you know, pulling the
trigger at least on an expensive, more expensive degree.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Right by the way, Jenninapolatano, what do you think it
would take to start bringing the cost down or will
they ever come down the cost of going to college?
They just keep going up.
Speaker 5 (25:26):
Well, as we mentioned earlier in this show, you know,
the primary cost of college is personnel. It's the faculty
and staff, and then you have facilities, and some of
the facilities are extraordinarily expensive. Laboratories, for example, are very
expensive to own and operate, and so that's the driver
(25:48):
of the cost. You know, I think as a nation
we need to refocus ourselves on what we had in
the post World War two era, which was the growth
of public universities, where the states paid the bulk of
the cost of the universities out of the recognition that
their states would be wealthier and healthier if they had
(26:11):
more college educated students. You know, the basic source of
revenue for public universities is either the state or tuition.
And when the state cuts down, which almost every state has,
including California, then you know, tuition goes up. There has
to be a balance in there somewhere. And I think
if we as a country really think, you know, what
(26:34):
we need as a country to be strong, and to
be strong, we need to be well prepared and well educated.
And that is a public investment that we make, not
just in students, but in our society at large.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Tulliver, what is coming in online?
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Yeah, this is great because that sort of piggybacks on
what you just said. So Tom Detroit says, if you
think education is expensive, try ignorance. Andrew in Chicago says,
our current administration does a clown show the idea of
giving money to trade schools. It's a known fact that
for profit trade schools have been ripping off the FEDS
for decades. I didn't know that. And then Lisa in
Kansas City says, does the fact that you're having this
(27:11):
conversation mean that this country is sliding away from an
expectation of superiority to mediocrity. There's a bunch of other
comments that came in, but try to keep them under
six paragraphs.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
You guys, you don't have to use chat GPT to
write the comments. Let's let's go get a call in
Kurt in Chicago. Kurt, do you think college education is
worth the cost?
Speaker 3 (27:36):
Yeah, thank you for taking my call. I guess I
would say if the sole evaluative criterion for determining whether
or not a college education is worth it or worth
the money is how much money you're going to make
throughout the course of your career, you're probably completely missing
the point. College is not just about making a living.
It's about making a life. A liberal education is about
moral formation, ethical reasoning, citizenship, the ability to live as
(28:00):
a productive, responsible, thoughtful member of the commonwealth. Americans should
think more about making college affordable and accessible than they
should about making.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
It worthless interesting point, Kurt, thank you for that. And
Jennet of Platano, I know you have to leave in
a couple of minutes, but what are your thoughts on
what Kurt has to say. There's so much more to
college than just the classes that get you the degree
that maybe get you the job later.
Speaker 5 (28:22):
I agree with Kurk and you know, I don't want
to sound to Pollyanna, but look, there's a lot that
happens in those years when you're getting education beyond high school.
And and as I've said before, it's education, it's preparation,
it's maturation. All of that is occurring. And again, the
United States has been known, it's one of the things
(28:44):
we're known for throughout the world is our higher education system.
And it is an incredibly diverse menu of different types
of institutions, and so students have a lot to select from.
But there are many, many, many excellent institutions of higher
education in this country. That's why students from around the
(29:05):
world want to come here.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
I want to ask you one more question before you go,
because I'm sorry we're bouncing around from topic to topic here,
but you know, it's not every day you have the
former president of the University of California and Homeland Security secretary.
So let me just ask you, how worried are you
about America's position as the higher education capital of the world,
given all the threats coming at it right now that
(29:30):
we may lose that slot.
Speaker 5 (29:32):
Well, I'm deeply concerned, you know, the US higher education
as it's one of the areas where we have a
trade surplus, not a trade deficit, if you want to
put it in the current administration's periscope. It is a
(29:53):
talent magnet and we bring talented young people from around
the world. Many of them end up staying. They start
their own businesses, They do research and are in the labs,
and are very can create and commit their energies to
the creativity of this country. And this whole sort of
(30:14):
we don't want international students. We're just going to cancel
their visas, We're going to make it as hard as
possible for them to come, et cetera. I don't know
what the long term strategy on that is, but to me,
it's not a good long term strategy.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
That is Janet of Politano, former president of the University
of California, Thank you so much for being with us
this hour. Thanks Jeremy and Kathleen Delaski is staying with
us as we take your calls at eight four four
four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three
three five three you can reach out at Listen to
the Middle, dot com and Tolliver. Plenty of notable figures
(30:49):
have made the point that you don't need a college
education to achieve success in life.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Well yeah. President Obama offered that advice to a group
of manufacturing workers in Waukeshaw and ex who live in
a Waukashaw and Walkshaw, Wisconsin back in twenty fourteen. Listen
to this, Folks can make a lot more potentially with
skilled manufacturing or the trades then they might with an
art history degree.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
Uh now, nothing wrong with our history. Agree.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
I love our history.
Speaker 14 (31:16):
So I don't want to get a bunch of emails
from everybody.
Speaker 15 (31:19):
I'm just saying you you can make a really good
living and have a great career without getting a four
year college education, as long as you get the skills.
Speaker 6 (31:29):
In the training that you need.
Speaker 2 (31:31):
See Jeremy, I study jazz and journalism. Now I'm here
as a DJ on the Middle, it'll work it out.
Speaker 1 (31:36):
There you go. It all worked out. And Obama, by
the way, went to Harvard and Columbia and he did
not study our history. We'll be right back with more
of the middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson,
and this hour we're asking you if a college education
is still worth the cost. You can call us at
eight four four four Middle, that's eight four four four
six four three three five three, or you can reach
(31:57):
out at Listen to the Middle dot com. We are
joined by my Education Design Lab founder Kathleen d'laski, and
we are taking your calls. And there are some calls
on the lines right now. Let's go to Christine Is
in Chicago. Christine, what do you think is college education
is still worth the cost?
Speaker 13 (32:15):
Well, I have to I have to say no. And
my reasoning is I went to college a little untraditionally,
I didn't go right out of high school. I went
to a small public university in Chicago, and for all
four years without any loan, scholarships or grants, my education
was forty two thousand dollars. That was what I ended
(32:38):
up paying. And so now the fact that the costs
have increased so much. Has My question is has the
improvement in the actual education increased to that extent as well.
Now I would definitely not encourage someone not to go
to school, but I really wonder, really, why are these
costs increasing so much, and why are we making it
(33:00):
so difficult for these kids to get the education that
we really they really should get and it should be
available to everybody.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
Christine, thank you, Kathleen. What do you think?
Speaker 8 (33:11):
Yeah, Christine is right, a lot of us are kind
of living on the nostalgia of yesteryear in terms of
like when we went to college and it was affordable.
I mean, I didn't have to take loans out. I
paid for myself to do my graduate degree at Harvard,
and that when I think back on that, I mean
I didn't, you know, I had loans for a little bit,
(33:32):
but it was you know, maybe five years I was
paying loans back, and that, you know, that felt very
doable when you're doing that cost benefit analysis. Now, when
families sit around, you know, the kitchen table and are
trying to figure that out, it's middle class families that
are getting squeezed the most. And that's because, you know,
if you're very low income if your family makes like
(33:53):
a less than forty thousand, you can qualify for you know,
the grants, the federal grants, those are still very much available.
And if you're you know, if your parents are pretty wealthy,
then you're you know, you're that's also okay because you know,
the student isn't usually paying, but everybody in the middle
is squeezed, and so that's you know, you see a
(34:13):
lot of the people in middle class and even wealthier
classes are the ones that are actually stepping back from
going to college because they're doing the cost benefit analysis
of of do they want to be in debt and
how much money are they going to make? So that's
you know, I mean, I'm still very much in favor
of what we talked about before the break, which is
(34:34):
college has wonderful you know, quote side effects in terms
of you know, the critical thinking, you learn how you know,
you learn about historical context, you make lifelong connections. Those
things are wonderful. But we have to figure out how
to provide those things at a lower cost.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Yeah. Absolutely. Let's go to Aaron who's in Sandy, Utah
erin Welcome to the Middle. What do you think about
the cost of college education?
Speaker 14 (35:00):
I do agree that I think depending on the school
that you go to, that the cost can be exorbitant
for some families. We've actually made a career change in
my own family. My husband went from probably a much
more lucrative career in medicine to teaching, and so now
he teaches history out of college. So he went back
(35:23):
to college and got a PhD in history after getting
a podiatric medical degree, and so we still have those
medical school debts, but by selling our practice, we paid
for his PhD. But and certainly we're not at the
earning potential we could be. So I wish that there
were easier way for people to make career transitions if
(35:43):
they wanted to. But in his teaching history, the school
he teaches that is a it's a four year college,
but it's also more focused on you know, medical assisting cybersecurity.
It's more trade focused, and he's the history teacher. And
we're finding that there's a lot of people who benefit.
(36:04):
Like you were saying, from that critical thinking, there's a
lot of I think there's a there's a growing ignorance
of history and of being able to look at information
and determine what is what is true and what is
not true, and how to interact with this world of
social media.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Yeah, which is so important right now, and it doesn't
seem like everybody has that knowledge, Aaron, thank you for that.
It brings up an interesting point, Kathleen, which is what
about when people change careers after they they get a
degree in one thing, and especially if they go to
a trade school and then they get a degree in something,
and then they change careers later in.
Speaker 8 (36:41):
Life, right, and we have to make it easier for
career changers. I mean, that's one of the group when
I go through I have a chapter in the book
where I say, Okay, who does need college anymore? You know,
at this point, with technology and the you know, the
sort of short life span of skills these days, who
should go to college and who shouldn't. Certainly people who
(37:02):
want to be doctors, lawyers, nurses, teachers need that license,
and those licenses require degrees. But increasingly we have a
lot of careers where, particularly if you're a career switcher,
you could, like my own daughter did this right, You
could switch into a career by going to a couple
of boot camps or taking a getting an industry certification,
(37:24):
and she got into digital marketing without going to university
as you know, like a thirty year old. So you
know that's something that we're trying to make it easier
in community colleges or in particular, I think setting themselves
up now because they recognize what's going on. They were
losing so many students. Now they're trying to set themselves
(37:45):
up to provide this step ladder approach where people can
come in and out of learning experiences throughout their working lives.
Speaker 1 (37:53):
Well, and I know there are these like six week
startup institutes even where you can go in and basically
do a mini business school and meet everybody in a
certain industry and then you know, learn a few things
that you need to know, but basically get get your
foot in the door and get into a new new job.
Alyssa is calling from Detroit. Alissa, what do you think
(38:14):
is college education worth it?
Speaker 15 (38:17):
Yes? I love what you just spoke about because I'm
thirty one and I'm shifting into a law degree and
I'm currently at a community college just outside of Detroit,
so I'm following the path. So I just talked about
where it feels necessary to go into some type of
debt to get this.
Speaker 1 (38:38):
Well, and especially with a law degree, because you've got
to have that. You can't practice without it.
Speaker 15 (38:43):
Right, And I dropped out of college at twenty one.
I went to Hollywood, I got into producing, and then
COVID hit in twenty twenty. I was just around twenty six,
twenty seven years old. And that's not an industry where
you get to climb up a ladder and become more
and more of an expert and it's a safehold. So
(39:04):
that really taught me that I wanted something I could
be an expert in and grow from that and have
a security in my expertise, which is where I think
a degree is really helpful because what I'm investing in
there is technically or historically a payback to that that
I can grow in.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
And is it costing you a lot of money to
go to this community college?
Speaker 15 (39:26):
Lesson right now?
Speaker 16 (39:29):
No.
Speaker 15 (39:30):
Actually, Michigan created a program called Michigan Reconnect for people
like me that have not been in school but started
it and it allows me to have free tuition until
I complete my associates, which has been the reason that
I went back to school. And now I'm nervous I'm
heading into finalizing my bachelor's so it's going to cost
(39:51):
a bit to do that, but I'm actually choosing schools.
Speaker 7 (39:55):
That cost a lot less and.
Speaker 15 (39:59):
It'll look different on paper, but I'm going to have
the paper. And That's been a bit of an ego
process for me, but it feels right because I'm just
seeing debt everywhere, so that's too scary to get more of.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Alyssa, thank you so much for that call. And Kathleen,
what do you think when you hear that? And Alyssa also,
you know, making the decision to go to community college,
and so many people when they're getting into their junior
or senior year in high school and they're just looking
at these the big name schools that's what they want
(40:33):
to do, and they're not maybe considering some other places
that might be a lot cheaper, less debt, less financial aid,
et cetera.
Speaker 8 (40:39):
Absolutely, I mean, Alyssa's making a really smart choice because
she's she's going for those like first maybe two years
or a year and a half because you can speed
it up. She's getting the associate's degree inexpensively and then
the bachelor's degree will be more costly, but she's only
going to maybe spend two years doing that because she's
also got to you know, save up for law school.
So increasingly colleges because they're seeing enrollment declines, they are
(41:05):
trying to work with people and states, like she mentioned Michigan,
many states are offering these kinds of programs now where
they're trying to offer either free tuition for you know,
people making under families making like under eighty thousand or
or or other other ways for to help help you
game the system. And the information like on you know,
(41:28):
the internet and through AI is so much better than
it used to be that you can really, you know,
you can really like work yourself a good deal and
not pay as much as you know, this sticker price
sounds like it will cost you.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
When you say that the information AI. And we had
a caller earlier who said, you can get so much
information online now, but isn't the same as what you
would be getting with a college education.
Speaker 8 (41:50):
Well, yeah, so that that caller was referring to, like
can't you learn skills like di y and learn them
on YouTube? And I interviewed some folks in the book
who kind of make their path that way. It works
for certain fields, and it works for certain types of people. Right,
you if you're like a tinkerer, and you you know,
you don't want to sit in a classroom and you're
not good at like you know, you don't you don't
(42:11):
want to deal with that, or you have a full
time job, which is many many many people they there are.
You know, these are nice workarounds, nice hacks to a
college degree in certain fields, particularly tech and you know,
some forms of like allied healthcare where you're learning. I mean,
eventually you have to get a license, but you know,
(42:32):
you can learn the first parts of certain roles that
are pretty hot by yourself online. It is possible. It's
not preferable, but you know, many people, you know, it's
like sixty five percent of people have to work their
way through school. And you know, we need to we
need to create college in a way that accommodates them,
(42:55):
and we haven't done that in the past, and that's
really starting to happen now and COVID helps speed that
up and so more people have access.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
Jeremy, I got two quick comments comes about AI and
learning on your own. Okay, so William says AI is
replacing clerical work, administrative jobs, middle management, excuse me, and
anything you can use Chatback's ai to do the work
for is going to be cut hand skills are the future,
at least until they develop robots that can do the job,
maybe in a few decades. Then one listener says, this
is a Frank Zappa quote. Frank Zappa. If you want
(43:26):
to get laid, go to college. If you want to learn,
go to the library. So do it yourself, says.
Speaker 1 (43:31):
Fay to go. Larissa is calling from Aurora, Illinois. Hi, Larissa,
what do you think?
Speaker 5 (43:39):
So?
Speaker 17 (43:39):
I am the proud parent of a twenty twenty five
high school graduate.
Speaker 1 (43:44):
Congratulators and thank you.
Speaker 17 (43:47):
We've just finished school.
Speaker 10 (43:50):
But he graduated with all of the licensing and certifications
for restaurant management.
Speaker 13 (43:57):
Wow.
Speaker 17 (43:58):
And that's part of the high school program. His particular
high school has all sorts of trades that you know,
they press most of the high.
Speaker 10 (44:11):
School classes into the first three years, and then that
senior year is spent learning a trade. They've got kids
doing welding. My freshman student was in carpentry and is
doing carpentry too next year. I mean, it really is
(44:32):
pretty impressive. And I understand that not all high schools
are equipped to handle that or offer that, but I
really think that it's amazing that he is graduated out
of high school and has a job in restaurant management.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (44:49):
So he's not going to college.
Speaker 17 (44:52):
He is not going to college.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
Wow Lyisa, thank you for that, Kathleen d Laski that
you write about. Is this dual enrollment? Is that what
you would call?
Speaker 8 (45:01):
Yeah? Yet, yes, it's two. There's two trends in the
book are right about that this caller has brought up.
But one of them is that now many many students
are getting part of their AA degree, part of their
associate's degree while they're in high school. That is a
huge trend that hasn't gotten a lot of coverage, and
it's because states are making it possible and paying for
you to take college classes. So that's one trend. And
(45:22):
the second is a kind of a revival of the
career in technical education in high school where some districts
and some states are trying now to kind of bake
it back into your high school day in a way
that for the last thirty years wasn't a thing. You know,
(45:43):
we had the College for All movement, and we all
had to be, you know, doubling down on math and
science and getting ready for the college application process. And
now there's kind of a realization because we're you know,
blurring the lines between these kinds of jobs that you
kind of need both and that gives you more choice
and more optionality. It's not to say that, you know,
(46:04):
the restaurant manager may not go ahead and get a
degree at some point, but they have you know, job,
their job ready coming out of high school. But they
also can be on a college track. That's kind of
the new the new thinking in twenty twenty five at
high schools.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
I'm going to sneak one more call in and it
is going to be Patrick in Raleigh, North Carolina. Patrick,
go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 16 (46:29):
Hi, Yes, thanks for having me. One thing I thought
that may have been missed this evening, where if we're
talking about the costs associated with going to college versus
not going to college, one of those costs are you know,
the social costs of not going to college. You know,
whether we like it or not, for better for worse,
there does seem to be a stratification in our society
where the college educated ju sit on top of that.
(46:52):
And until we grapple with that and whether that system
makes sense, you know, I think the costs will always
be pretty high for folks that want want to be
you know, taken seriously by the people on the top
of that strata, you know, and if they don't go
to college, then it may be difficult for them to
do so. So I think, you know, we should we
ought to consider those social costs when considering whether college
(47:16):
is worth the cost or not.
Speaker 1 (47:17):
Did you go to college, Patrick.
Speaker 16 (47:20):
I did, And I find myself having implicit bias against
you know, tradesmen who are frankly probably making more than me.
But I find myself having implicit bias against them, and
all my friends do as well. And it's something that
I think our society needs to grapple with if we're
going to, you know, make this adjustment towards making college
not worth it, because there are, you know, as of
(47:40):
right now, there are social costs of not going to college.
Speaker 1 (47:44):
A great point to end on, Patrick, Kathleen DLASKI, how
do you handle that? How do you deal with what
Patrick is talking about there and just changing the mindset
of people if you are going to actually change society
and say, you know, some people can feel perfectly good
going to a two year trade school or not going
to college. At all, or going to college and not
(48:05):
going into a lot of debt or whatever.
Speaker 8 (48:08):
Well, this is exactly why in my book and my
belief in the organization I run, we try to push
the notion that, you know, college should be able to
be to house all these different pieces so that the
you know, the stigma that comes with not going to college,
that you know, why can't some of the trade programs
(48:28):
and apprenticeships and industry certifications and the degree be offered
under the umbrella of college and and have access to
the funding structure that is only reserved for people who
do university degrees currently. That's the system that has to change,
and I think then the stigma gets, you know, falls
away with that.
Speaker 1 (48:50):
Well, I want to thank you so much, Kathleen Delaski,
founder of the Education Design Lab, and your book the
name is not right in front of me, tell us
what your book title is?
Speaker 8 (49:01):
Who Needs College Anymore?
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Who Needs College Anymore? And also we've been speaking with
a former University of California president, Janta Polaitano. Kathleen, thank
you so much, thank.
Speaker 8 (49:10):
You for having me, great, great conversation, great questions.
Speaker 1 (49:14):
And don't forget the Middle is available as a podcast
in partnership with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart Apple wherever
you listen to podcasts and come in in to your feet.
In the next few days an episode of our weekly
podcast Extra one thing Trump did and we're going to
be looking at what's going on with air traffic control. Yesh,
I don't know if I want to hear that one,
But next week we'll be back here talking about the
role of Christianity in our politics.
Speaker 2 (49:36):
As always, you can call in at eight four four
four Middle. That's eight four four four six four three
three five three. You can also reach out at Listen
to the Middle dot com. You can also sign up
for our free weekly newsletter and support us with a
tax deductible donation.
Speaker 1 (49:48):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmustas, John barth, Anakadeshler and
Brandon Condritz are Technical director is Steve mork. Thanks to
our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and the hundreds
of public radio stations that are making it possible for
people across the country to listen to the Middle, I'm
(50:11):
Jeremy Hobson and I will talk to you next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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