January 17, 2025 • 48 mins
On this episode of The Middle we're asking you: is democracy really at risk? We're joined by Clemson University history professor Vernon Burton and political commentator Andrew Sullivan. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #Trump #democracy #constitution #inauguration #2025
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by
building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on
how you can support the Middle at listen to Themiddle
dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along
(00:21):
with our house DJ Tolliver, and of course you can
watch us live on YouTube, TikTok and Twitch, although Tolliver
maybe not TikTok for very long because it's about to
get banned.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
In the next few days.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Boo.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
You know, it was the best of times. It was
the demurest of times. Thanks for the memories.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
The memeries. Okay, Well, the other thing that is happening
in the coming days is that Donald Trump will once
again be President of the United States, something that many
Americans view as devastating to US democracy, not least because
of Trump's unwillingness to accept the election results four years
ago in his role in what happened on January sixth,
twenty twenty one. So this hour, we want to know
(00:58):
if you thinkocracy is really in danger because of Trump's
return to the White House or number is eight four
four four middle. That's eight four four four six four
three three five three, And we'll get to your calls
in a moment. But first, last week we asked you
what should happen now with the US support of Ukraine.
Here are some of the calls that came in after
the show.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Well, this is Bill Scher from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. This is
not just about the Ukraine. It's about Poland, the Baltic Republics,
one country after another. Vladimi Poden wants to reconstitute the
Soviet Union and going further back in history, the Russian.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Empire, NATO and the US should defend Ukraine from Russia.
Ukraine must be defended and allowed to join NATO, no
matter the cost.
Speaker 6 (01:50):
Hi, I'm Manny Moroda. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. The war
is about what it's always been, pride. And I think
that if the solution is found where both Putin and
Tromp and NATO, if they all signed a solution that
can find them pride, then the war can end without
further loss of life or territory on either side, if
there is simply a maintenance of pride. And I think
(02:11):
that is what Trumps and Fotin should be focusing on
in their upcoming negotiations.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in, and you can
hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
to podcasts. So now to our topic this hour, is
democracy really at risk as Trump retakes the White House?
And by the way, I want to hear from you
if you think it is at risk or if you
think that these concerns are overblown. Tolliver, can you give
(02:36):
us the number again please?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, it's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four
four four six four three three five three, or you can.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Write to us that listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
You can also comment on our new live stream on YouTube,
TikTok and Twitch.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Let's be at our panel. Political commentator Andrew Sullivan, who
writes the weekly Dish Substack and host the Companion podcast,
joins us. Andrew, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 7 (02:57):
Thanks for having me, Jeremy, and.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Clemson University is wan Vernon Burton joins us as well. Vernon,
great to have you back on the Middle.
Speaker 8 (03:04):
It's great to be back with you, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So before we get to the phones, let me speak
to each of you. Andrew, do you think democracy is
at risk with Trump coming back into the White House?
Speaker 7 (03:15):
Not seriously at risk, I think. I mean, look, we
just had a big election, big turnout, and he won.
It's very hard to argue that a big democratic victory
is somehow the demise of democracy. It's just becomes surreal
when you start talking that way. Now, what am I
(03:36):
he do in office there? Who knows? And we can't
rule out the risk given the things that he said
in the past. But I found myself not as worried
this time as I was in twenty sixteen, and partly
because we have been through this before and we know
he didn't do it before, and so the chances of
him getting away with it now are pretty small. Also
(03:59):
to a very obvious fact. He has a five seat
majority in the House of Representatives so far, which may
well go down.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Well, it's lower now, right because of some people that
have been taken out of the House to go into
his administration.
Speaker 7 (04:14):
Yes, so it may come down to two or one
or two in the end. It's just really hard to
be a tyrant with a two seat majority in the House,
and you'd be lucky, especially when your party is as
divided as his is. I think he's at a high
watermark now and we'll see what will take place.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Furner, Britain. What do you think and give us the
historic context. Have there been moments in the past. Obviously
we think about the Civil War as a moment when
everything was at risk, But are there moments that you
compare this to and how does this stack up for you?
Speaker 9 (04:44):
Yes?
Speaker 8 (04:45):
And I think Jeremy that we need to realize the
question should be democracy always has been at risk, and
people understood that.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
You know.
Speaker 8 (04:54):
The famous quote by most historians is with Ben Franklin
when a woman ask him, you know, well, doctor, what
have we got a republic or a monarch? And Franklin replied,
a republic if you can keep it. And this has
to be put in the context to decline and follow.
The Roman Empire by Gibbon was hot off the Press
(05:15):
is in the seventeen seventies and his account of how
the Roman Republic slipped into tyranny when powerful men it
seduced or intimidated his citizens, so they became a stampeding mob,
hungry for bread and sert. They were worried about the
founders worried about it, Lincoln worried about it, and I
think what's interesting is we have not worried about it
very much since, and I think we should have because
(05:39):
democracy has never been static. I will say that this
period parallels more closely the Civil War reconstruction era than
in so many ways than ever before. My main concern
is belief in the rule of law. We started with
the idea of the rural law. People forget at the Declaration,
(06:01):
which is not part of the Constitution as all men
are created equal, that it was actually written to explain
the rule of law, of why a revolution was necessary,
so that people could live under the laws and be
governed by them. And I guess my greatest concern is
will the rule of law be used to undermine the
(06:25):
rule of law? And there have been a number of issues.
I've written the article, my co author of Justin Fird
wrote another article about the Supreme Court used there, But
in general we haven't seen law used to go after
people as enemies per se. So if that doesn't happen,
I will feel pretty comfortable and agree with Andrew, but
(06:48):
that would be my main concern there.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
On that point, Andrew about the rule of law. We
just had the president elect's nominee for Attorney General, Pan
Bondy in her hearing wouldn't say that Biden won the
twenty twenty election. Are you and was asked about, you know,
going after some of Trump's political enemies with the rule
(07:12):
of law. Are you worried about that that aspect?
Speaker 7 (07:16):
Well, I think that Democrats would have a stronger case
if they hadn't persecuted Trump with the political use of
the rule of law, specifically Alvin Brad case, which was
clearly an attempt to politically manipulate the law to prosecute
this guy because the DA didn't want it, didn't like him,
(07:37):
and because the DA would get popularity in New York
City if he indicted him. He did. He jinned up
this fake charge, turning a misdemeanor into a fello. I mean,
the whole thing was obviously corrupt. So it's not as
if we're starting from position in which one side is
sticking to the rule of law. On the other side,
(07:57):
isn't they did everything they could to use rule of
law to get rid of Trump, and I hope he
doesn't do the same thing in return. But a's clear
that that's what happened. The three other cases, of course,
are more legitimate. But again, when you're using the legal
process to circumvent a political process like impeachment, you are,
(08:22):
I think, twisting the rule of law in ways that
are dangerous, and no one points us out when the
Democrats do it, but everyone's extremely upset if Trump would
do it.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Let's get a call in before the break. Here, Ryan
is in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Ryan, Welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Do you think democracy is at risk?
Speaker 10 (08:42):
I think that Trump's recent election adds to the endangerment
of democracy. But I think this question is almost forty
years too late. I think we really should have started
asking his democracy and danger as we started seeing the
industrialization hollow places like Peoria, Illinois, or Flint, Michigan, and
(09:03):
you started seeing jobs going overseas and the middle class
rapidly shrinking. I think that was a much more intense
and immediate threat to the fabrica democracy in this country.
And Trump is just adding to a process that's been
underway for almost two generations.
Speaker 11 (09:20):
Now.
Speaker 10 (09:21):
I think we really have to focus on the economic
issues when we want to think about is democracy under threat?
And you know, Trump is more of a symptom than
necessarily a cause.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
You're saying just the decline of the middle class is
the threat to democracy.
Speaker 10 (09:40):
I think the biggest threat to democracy is people's, you know,
the ability to pay the bills, keep themselves in their
homes and feed themselves. This is sort of this is
comparable to Weimar Germany in the nineteen twenties. If people
can't feed themselves, if people can't keep themselves in their
homes and think about tomorrow is potentially better or stable
is today, then they stop thinking about things like democracy
(10:03):
because they have to really focus on survival.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Right, Thank you very much for that. Vernon Burton, your
thoughts on that.
Speaker 8 (10:10):
Well, I think there's a really good point there, and
I think it goes back that our generation we have
sort of thought of Martin Luther King Junior's the Arc
of Morrow, universe's loan, but it bends towards justice, and
we forget that Martin Luther King Jr. Was a theologian,
and he's talking about the end times even quotes in
(10:34):
that same great speech. Of course he's talking about John
on pat Mos and the end times as opposed to
as he says, very clearly, we have to be doing something.
And you know, I take my view as a person
of faith the same way that ultimately justice is going
to be okay, but we have to do things here.
(10:57):
And I do think there's a slight difference from what
Andrew was saying on the state case versus the threat
of using the federal government to go after enemies. I'm
hoping it will not happen, but I do think that
is something that will really undermine our belief in the
(11:19):
rule of law, and particularly I worry that the Supreme
Court when it basically said that the president is above
the law, that is, it's not quite that, but the
idea it goes against the sort of historical understanding that
no one is above the law. And with that kind
of of ruling, I think it, with a lot of others,
(11:43):
it is undermine a lot of people's faith in.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I gotta, I gotta, I gotta stop you right there,
Vernon Burton, because Tolliver, the claims about trumping a threat
to democracy go right up to the top.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, here's President Biden delivering remarks to supporters about a
year ago in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 12 (12:00):
Democracy is still America's sacred cause. Is the most urgent
question of our time, and that's what the twenty twenty
four election is all about. The choice is clear. Donald
Trump's campaign is about him, not America, not you. Donald
Trump's campaign is obsessed with the past, not the future.
(12:22):
He's only to sacrifice our democracy. We must be clear.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Democracy is on the ballot well, and the people knew that, Tolliver,
and they still voted for Trump. So there we go.
And and by the way, we are going to be
doing a live new special show in just a few
days on Inauguration Night. The podcast will drop the next morning,
but we hope you'll tune in for that as well,
(12:49):
and we'll be right back with more of the Middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
In the Middle is a national call in show focused
on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
We are also available as a podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
(13:09):
to podcasts. This hour, we're asking you, is democracy really
at risk? Tolliver? What is the number of people to
call in?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
It's eight four four for Middle that's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I'm joined by political commentator Andrew Sullivan of The Weekly
Dish and Clemson University history professor Vernon Burton. And before
we get back to the phones, Andrew, what about the press,
uh and the role of the media. We've seen obviously
over the last many years, newspapers disappear. We've seen a
lot of people get their information from these large tech
(13:44):
firms like Meta and x that are not operating like
normal news organizations. They're clearly trying to stay in good
graces with the incoming administration. Are the media up to
the task of safeguarding our democracy to the extent that
a free press does that?
Speaker 7 (14:01):
Yes, they want to. I mean it's perfectly possible to
print the news and to challenge people in government. There's
nothing stopping them. We still have a First Amendment. I
think some of this and considering what the media has
been over the last ten years, if you think about
how they have been lecturing us, controlling us, telling us
(14:24):
how to live our lives incessantly, a woke agenda imposed
from the top with no democratic input whatsoever. The idea
that the only threat democracy is coming from the right
is just silly. And when you hear Biden say democracy
is on the ballot, just think about what he just said.
(14:46):
Democracy is on the ballot. Democracy is the ballot. This
is not Weimar. We do not have one thousand percent
inflation and thirty percent unemployment. We have incredibly low unemployment.
We have strong growth, stronger than any other country in
the world. The question with democracy is are we going
(15:07):
to continue to have elections? Are we continue to be
able to choose who represents us? Yes, we will. Now
there's another question about liberal democracy, which is that do
we have the institutions to make sure that democracy doesn't
become the tyranny of the majority. And that's a question
that the press has to focus on. But I think
(15:29):
we're losing track of what democracy is. I think we're
losing perspective on the moment we're in. And for all
Trump's insane pronouncements, he is so much and has proven
to be. His bark has been so much bigger than
his bite. We've already been through this for four years.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Vernon Burton, what about that argument Andrew has said that, Now,
a couple of times that Trump was president before we've
been through this for four years, there was still an election.
I mean, he didn't show up to the inauguration. But
but you know, the democracy did continue after the first
Trump term.
Speaker 8 (16:05):
Yes, and I think Andrew was right to say that
gives us a pause to consider. I think that things
will continues. I said, I really believe we should have
been worried about democracy long before there was was Donald Trump.
And I was actually gonna throw this to both you
(16:26):
and Andrew because you are the media now. And remember
Walter Concrete sort of famous saying if I can paraphrase
that the press is not just important to democracy, it
is democracy. But one of the big changes that I
have seen in my lifetime is this idea. Well, if
you think about with Lincoln, people knew at the time
(16:49):
that the newspapers were political parties. The parties owned the newspapers,
and you know, we probably don't have time. One of
my favorite stories is in eighteen fifty he ate the
Lincoln Douglas debates, and you have to come down briefly.
The Democratic Party said Lincoln was totally ineborated and drunk.
Remember he was president of the Temperance Society. He gave
(17:12):
the most incoherent and terrible speech, and these followers had
to carry him out. He was so unable to walk.
Whereas the Whig paper said, it was the greatest, most
inspiring speech of all time. And his supporters put him
on their shoulders and hurrah, and carried him out in triumph.
(17:32):
And the only thing that they agreed on was that
he was carried out. Now, but people reading those papers
knew those papers were owned by a political party, and
I think that's a major difference. Today. We can all
point to the other people looking at the one that
we don't look at and say, oh, they're looking at
a bias one. But I think this is something people
(17:56):
need to learn to think critically again. And I'll just
do one hobby horse about democracy. You know, we don't
teach civics anymore in most schools, and even history is
being challenged and not put the emphasis on it. And
I'm not trying to. We really need still education, but
everybody believes in that, and yet you really need the humanity,
(18:18):
civics and history and political science to understand how government works.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Well, it's amazing.
Speaker 7 (18:26):
Over the last ten years all the major media establishment
moved so far to the left, became essentially mouthpieces to
the Biden administration, deliberately concealed the fact that he was
incompetent as the president, was unable to even function as president,
put every news story through the prison of critical race
(18:46):
theory and critical queer theory and critical gender theory. They
are the most partisan impressed we've had. NPR is the
most biased institution media.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
In the country.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
This is how you know the middle is different because
Andrew is on NPR stations and he's saying that right now.
Speaker 7 (19:07):
For all its laws, can you something different. That's why
it's successful. The substact world, the places that are actually
offering real journalism, unlike the New York Times, unlike NPR,
which are essentially become propaganda channels for the left, are
doing really well. We're booming. Not that we're right ringers
(19:28):
so much, but we haven't adopted a mentality that has
been imposed as an actual policy across all these major
media groups to defend and advance what they call social
justice at the expense of every other value in journalism.
They have lied to us again and again. We know it,
We've seen it. So I think we're already in a
(19:49):
nineteenth century situation, and the more different outlets the better,
and people need to they shouldn't be spoon fed their news.
They have figured out for themselves. That's to sort of
democracy really is. And it is a diversity of views.
It's a diversity of newspapers. And then I think we're
doing better now than we were five years ago or
(20:09):
ten years ago.
Speaker 8 (20:10):
I will say, just as a democracy, the panda educated citizenry, yes,
of course.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
But that doesn't But but you think, but that applies
to every sort of media that you might be, the
biased media of MPR or the biased media of Fox Media.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'm just gonna be I'm just gonna say one thing
is somebody who's been working in public radio since I
was a child, I do believe in public radio. I
do think that it should be credible across the political spectrum.
And I agree with you Andrew that at many times
in recent years it has not lived up to that.
But that's what we're trying to do here. So let's
(20:47):
get to another call. And Emmett is in the Bay
Area in California and is seventeen. Emmett, tell us, what
do you think about democracy? And whether it's at risk.
Speaker 9 (20:58):
I think it's very interesting at the two people on
this call or on the radio are talking about education,
because I currently I just took an AP government course.
I'm taking an AP economics course, and for my free
time when I drive, I listen to The Rise and
Fall of the Third Reich on audiobook by William L. Shire,
who's considered one of the most profound historians on the
(21:21):
rise of Nazism. And so the where I recently left
off is during the Weimar era, after the phil beer
Hall push, Hitler's turn was to take over through the
democratic nature of Germany. And so I think that while
I'm not saying Trump is Hitler by any means, I'm
saying that it is possible to take over a democracy
(21:44):
through democratic nature, and I think that through some of
the people that Donald Trump is appointing, they're yes men,
and I'm afraid that there won't be that democratic safeguards
to stop I'm not saying that right now Donald Trump
will end democracy, but it's there for the taking if
he's like it, and I think that it's very In
(22:05):
his first term, there were the safeguards, there were the
people in the war room in there with him to
say this is wrong, you are wrong, and they were
promptly fired most of the time.
Speaker 13 (22:15):
But there were those safeguards.
Speaker 9 (22:16):
I'm afraid that those are now going away, and I'm
afraid for what that means for democracy. And I think
because of that, democracy is at risk. That's all I
have to say. Thank you for having me on EMMED.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Thank you so much for that call. You know, there
are a lot of people Vernon Burton, I'll go to you.
There are a lot of people who do believe that.
They say the safeguards aren't there this time. Look at
the people that he's putting in this time. Some of
his impulses, you know, to sort of have one set
of rules for him and one set of rules for
everybody else would be anti democratic.
Speaker 8 (22:49):
Well, one of the things why I'm so glad that
our caller, the seventeen year old student, is taking these
ap government classes. We have a system of chicks and
balances and this hope it works. One of the things
we've seen is the way Congress has been has been
stalled in the Supreme Court, has done a lot of
things I think it normally would not have. But checks
(23:10):
and balances should work.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Let me go to uh, let me go to Joseph,
who's calling from Peedley, Missouri. Joseph, what do you think
is democracy at risk with Trump retaking the White House?
Speaker 14 (23:23):
Well, I mean Trump, I seen him kind of more
a symptom. I mean, he's a bit of a goofball.
He couldn't really hang with any of the great statesmen
of our past, but he does have the unique political
talents that our time requires. Are kind of tough mindedness
and a lot of all fizzle, no stake, media savvy.
I think that the real threat to democracy as we
(23:46):
have it right now, like the mass liberal democracy is
kind of built into the system. I mean, all of
the people who are trying to lead us worried about
misinformation are kind of right that a lot of people
do get easily swayed. But that begs the question should
these people who you know are you know, not even
(24:07):
people who are totally you know, too dumb or crazy
to vote, but just people like me who are too
busy to keep up with everything. You know, we're working
eight hours a day trying to keep the family together.
So you know, the media power really is what can
move the masses to vote for people and choose the
(24:31):
direction of the country. I mean, I personally think that
if we restricted the franchise to save democracy, I'd be
happy to give up my right to vote to labor
under a just and wise and competent government rather than
having to deal with these short term grenetic bouncing back
and forth of.
Speaker 7 (24:54):
Democracy. Right there, that's the threat to democracy. The views
that the most people are to to vote for their
own interests, that's what.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
They get.
Speaker 7 (25:06):
Some of them died, he trusted, I don't. I really,
I think the Viyma stuff is massively overblown. We have
two hundred years of constitutional government. The resistance is not
supposed to come from within the executive branch. It's to
come from the Congress and the courts and the States
and the media and everything else. And I was worried,
(25:28):
very worried in twenty sixteen. But I've watched this process,
and you know, the courts have fought back against both
presidents the I don't think the recent court decision on
immunity is anything like a sweeping as Villain said it was.
And he has a one or two seat majority in
the House. Again, I repeat that that's incredibly hard to
(25:52):
force policies upon people they don't want, and certainly, ins
far as he was elected, he was replacing someone who
was in forcing policies the people didn't want. Mass immigration,
open borders was something no one wanted, but the Democrats
gave us anyway because they thought it was good for us.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, tolliver Y, Hey, Vernon, let me let's just go.
Let's just wait to hear a couple of comments that
are coming in here online.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Very spicy.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah so, Carmelia and Atlanta says, the instability of the
middle class is a threat to democracy. Is a great
point that is actually illustrated quite colorfully.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
In Squid Game season two.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
A two party democratic season can lead to conflict and
at worse, bloodshed. Brianon Demm says the Federalist Society Project
twenty twenty five. These are all chipping away at our democracy.
Trump is a useful idiot. Literally all the comments are
this spicy.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
It's crazy. It's a big one today. Uh and then
let's go.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Trump has the stantial immunity and keeps pushing for that
to apply to non presidential issues.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Trump bragged about.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Being able to shoot someone and get away with it.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Wild wild, wild stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Today you get that comment at listen to the middle
dot com Vernon Burton, you were about to say.
Speaker 8 (26:58):
Yeah, I just I don't know if and would agree
with me not. But my observation of the twenty sixteen
four years of President Trump is I don't think that
President Trump understands very well how government works, and so
in some ways that's a reassurance to me that he
would not know how to undermine it very well, even
(27:21):
if he intended. I'm not saying he intends to, but
I think in support you asked me earlier other peeros
and just you know, I wasn't quite born then, but
we had the McCarthy era, and of course I grew
up with the Jim Crow era of white supremacists. One
thing that has bothered me, though, is, except for the
(27:42):
Civil War era when people would refer to Abraham Lincoln
as an ape or an animal, I think the language
even the white supremacist.
Speaker 7 (27:51):
Of the.
Speaker 8 (27:53):
Era of which I grew up in and the Jim
Crow per they never sort of demonized their opponents so much.
They were within the political process. And I'm not sure
how that's going to play out, but it is something
I have some concern with because language is very important.
I think, and the only other period I can come
(28:14):
up with it I've looked at is before the Civil
War and the Civil War reconstruction era.
Speaker 7 (28:22):
Jeremy, a democratically elected president could become a dictate right,
he would use an emergency, a disaster the Reichstag fire
in Germany to seize power, to tell people God to
seize his power because order now. Trump was given too
unbelievably good opportunities to do that. He was given an
(28:45):
epidemic which could have given him the power to use
the federal government to control every part of our lives.
Turns out he didn't really want to do that. In fact,
he was kind of hostile to it. In the summer
of twenty twenty when cities were burnings were going on.
He could have sent the military, he could have used
that as a pretext. He didn't. So we've had two
(29:08):
cases where he had it for the taking and look
the other way. The other thing is he's not interested
in going to war now. Tyrants people who want to
destroy democracies love wars. He's not one of them. He's
a strange character because he's very anti interventionist. He wants peace,
(29:28):
he wants appeasement, in many ways. So that's another reason
I don't think he really wants to be a dictator
or would have the ability to become one.
Speaker 10 (29:38):
Well.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Stand by, because Tolliver, there are those people who say
Donald Trump does not post a threaten to democracy, including
people who otherwise criticize him quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yeah, his former National security advisor John Bolton is certainly
no friend of Trump these days, but he doesn't think
Trump is going to bring about the end of democracy.
Speaker 15 (29:54):
We've had boiling points in this country. We're almost called
the civil war. We're nowhere close to that rhetoric. To
the contrary, notwithstanding, I think Trump could cause a lot
of damage if he's reelected. I've been saying that for
several years now. I do not think he is an
existential threat to our democracy, and I think it's in
fact harmful to say that. That's the kind of rhetoric
(30:16):
I think we could do without.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, Toliver, John Bolton really doesn't like Trump these days.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I've heard.
Speaker 13 (30:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah, We'll be right back with more of your calls
coming up on the middle. This is the Middle. I'm
Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're asking you, is democracy really
at risk? As Trump retakes the presidency, you can call
us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four
four four six four three three five three. You can
also reach out at listen to Themiddle dot com. I'm
(30:44):
joined by Clemson University history professor Vernon Burton and political
commentator Andrew Sullivan of The Weekly Dish. And the phone
lines are full, So let's get to Alex in Atlanta. Alex,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Go ahead.
Speaker 10 (30:57):
So, I think there's a lot of ways you can
look at it, and I'll try to take I guess
more of a centrist stance, where there are a few
presidents throughout the last one hundred years or so even
that you can look at that responded by using a
lot of their power to take drastic measures. You know.
(31:18):
One example you can look at is FDR using the
New Deal, packing the courts to get the New Deal
passed through in order to sort of fix the Great Depression.
And then you can look at like Ronald Reagan who
saw a lot of the economic turmoil in the seventies
(31:41):
and then use his presidential powers to sort of go
crazy with the regulation and pushing forward his conservative agenda.
So I think that if Trump uses sort of the
most of his power. You're going to get something maybe
in between those.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
M so the presidential power and of course Vernon Burton,
the power of the presidency is bigger now than it
has been, isn't it Well?
Speaker 8 (32:12):
And I'll be honest what Andrew thinks. I we don't
know yet what it is going to mean in terms
of this ruling that says the presidence above the law
at least as long as as presidential duties thing has
going to be interpreted. But if as I read it,
(32:33):
uh and and with you know, to to to make
it clear, I had an amicus brief in fact, which
laid out the history and and the court just sort
of ignored all the history and the precedence and everything
to to come to that ruling. But we really haven't
had it tested yet. We'll have to. We'll have to see.
(32:55):
I don't know if Andrew agrees or not with it.
I go either way.
Speaker 7 (32:59):
I think really good. John Roberts has written that it's
not meant to be that sweet, right, and I don't
think when you read it closely it reads that way.
But imagine Jeremy for example, and that the president today
said I'm going to get a whole bunch of legal
citizens and put them in camps for four years. I'm
(33:21):
going to get re elected four times, three times. Rather,
I'm going to have such a big majority in the
Congress that I can do anything I want. That was fdr.
We had to have a constitutional amendment to brind that
happening again. It's just when you actually look at some
get some perspective on this, you realize that, in fact, no,
(33:42):
we may be moving away from the liberal democracy when
we were able to have real conversations that fantably we
were able to come together the kind of conversation we're
having now, we may be more in a more sort
of rambunctious, polarized period. But this constant is a pretty
good one. It has lasted really well, and we'll see
(34:07):
how it does. It survived one term of Trump. And look,
I do think that the attempt to squelch in, to
get rid of him, to short circuit democracy through the
law or through other measures, backfired. And the American people
said very clearly, we don't think he's a threat to
our democracy. We're voting for him again. And I in
(34:30):
the end trust their judgment. I do I trust their jobs.
If he does something crazy and I want you torus.
I didn't vote for him either time. I've been one
of the sharpest critics of him. I disagree with him
on many issues. I think his rhetoric is insanely deranged.
I think he should never be present. But I don't
think he's going to destroy our democracy. That's all.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
I think they could have had an ad with you
in it for the Trump campaign saying that I don't
like him, I didn't vote for him, but I don't
think he's going to the democracy. Let's go to Aaron,
who's in Titan, Wyoming. Aaron, welcome to the middle. Go
ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 16 (35:07):
Yeah, Hi, thank you honor to be on with your
two guests. Andrew, I follow you a lot and I
admire you a lot. I think you're brilliant. I do
think you took a cheap shot to MPR, which I
am not brought proud of you for that one. Anyways, Well, yeah,
I mean, yeah, yeah. One of the things that Vernon mentioned,
(35:29):
which is kind of what I think is more fundamental
with the risk, is that we don't talk about enough,
is you know you have you have in our society,
especially now with the diversity we have in every community.
I think anyone that's grown up in the United States.
I grew up in Virginia, Michigan, California, I'm in Wyoming.
Everywhere I've been, I felt there was a level of
(35:51):
attention among neighbors. It's just a natural thing that exists
when humans try to live among humans. And it was
your coach on the team, or the principle of the
high school, or the city mayor or the governor, or
ideally the president that made civilized nations civilized where we
didn't have viture all towards people that we didn't agree with.
We could disagree, but we didn't get violent with them.
(36:12):
And I think one of the roles of every president
that's important to me when I vote is not so
much even policies anymore, because they don't control as many
policies as you think. There's a big government that does that,
and quite frankly, policies change and they ebb and flow
over the years. I think what's going to affect my
life on my kids' lives more than anything is the
attitude in the atmosphere, in the tone of the nation,
(36:33):
and if neighbors can live peacefully among neighbors because the
role models in our society make us realize they shame
us if they shame us if we're not behaving, and
they praise us when we do when we do act
courteous to our neighbors. And I think the big risk
with Trump is he viciously attacks people that he doesn't
agree with in a hatred way, not an unfriendly way,
(36:56):
in a hatred way. And he called Gavin k Newso
new scum.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
In the middle in the middle of the fires, and
and and yeah.
Speaker 16 (37:04):
Right, So it's like, why would you if you start
demonizing and start making people hate each other because they
don't agree with you politically, they don't agree with you.
You know, they're from the blank whole countries, the immigrant
you know.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
It's right now, we got your point. Let me let
me take that to Vernon Burton. That's a very good point.
What about that neighborlyiness? Uh and and just sort of
the tone of our politics, that is that in itself
a threat to having the kind of democracy that we
have in the United States.
Speaker 8 (37:30):
Well, yes it is. And that's what I said about
education is where I was going with the use of
a term vermin in this I said look, I look
back to see if that kind of language had been
used before, and really just the civil Civil War. But
I think there's something besides just the neighborlingdess and these
sorts of things. Uh, that is is really important. That's
(37:52):
another parallel we haven't talked about. And then the parallels
that follow in history. What we have now pairallels what
was Mark Twain called the gilded Age after Civil War reconstruction,
when what you had what extremes in wealth, and that's
where we are going now. It seems to me. I
hope I'm wrong, and we'll see what kind of what
(38:14):
happens with the policies that are passed. But certainly with
the first time there was reaction with the People's Party
commonly known as the Populist Party that brought about a
lot of reforms through the progressive era at that time.
And I think there and one other parallel for me
is it reminds me of my oncoming age of the
sixties and when in fact, young people decided that the
(38:39):
generation before hadn't done a very good job and they're
going to do something. You begin to have cities and
things like that. I really do think young people today
are a little tired of looking and saying, look at
off these old people who have been president. They have
messed up, they have not done a good job. And
I don't know which way it's gonna go, but I
(39:00):
do think there's a movement or the stirrings of a
similar kind of time of the sixties among young people,
particular in things like the environment and other issues that
be interesting to see what happened and what comes out
of it. That ass your question, Jeremy, I went.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
On, Yeah, that was very interesting. Let me go to Brett,
who's in Totonia, Idaho. Brett, welcome to the middle. Are
you worried about democracy?
Speaker 13 (39:26):
Well, you couldn't have picked a better person to get
to following Jeremy because he's just on the other side
of the tetons from me. But worried about democracy? Democracy,
that's a big word, probably with a lot of ways
that you could look at it. But as far as
the ability to vote, do I think Donald Trump's going
to ruin our ability to have a fair and honest vote?
(39:50):
Probably not. But what I do worry about is, and
it was prior to Donald Trump, but is the introduction
to the money level that is going on in our
democracy and also the lack of what seems to be
our society are how we are educated on what is
really going on right, And it seems like a lot
(40:13):
of people react to the last worst thing that they've
heard Brett, and that is go ahead.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
I was gonna say that. I want to I want
to ask Andrew about the money issue, because that's a
really important one. And I also want to say the
middle is obviously hot on both sides of the Titans.
So thank you for that, Andrew, what about that? That's
the second caller that's brought that up. We've got Elon Musk,
the richest man in the world, now having an enormous
amount of sway. Is that is this oligarchy that Biden
(40:41):
warned about in his Goodbye address a threat?
Speaker 7 (40:45):
Well, we should notice by partisan the Kamala Harris raised
much more money from a lot more holigoqics than Donald
Trump is and historically Trump has kind of animated all
of those people. They're now coming around him because they
want to suck up to him. Yeah, I don't think
it's a good thing that these people exercise too much influence.
I will happen and I don't and I don't like
(41:08):
the access they buy. Although it's not new obviously, it's
not like we haven't had this stuff many times before.
I will say this though, if you think that Elon
Musk and Donald Trump are going to get along for
four years, you have no idea. If you think, I
mean already, vivac is a is a casualty. Last last
week Steve Bannon called Elon Musk an evil man. These
(41:32):
these people are not stable characters. They're big egos. I
give them a few weeks before they blow up with
Donald Trump and leave in disgrace. So I you know,
And and money affects all sorts of things. But money
at this point and the wealthy are far more on
the Democrats side on the Republicans. It's true, I think
(41:55):
at this point, except for a few opportunists right now,
but in Chen that's the case. The Reroblicans have become
more of a working class party. And on questions like immigration,
you know, all the money, all the money, people want
more immigration, they want cheap foreign labor as much as
they can get. So in some ways Trump represents a
(42:15):
resistance to that force of money.
Speaker 8 (42:18):
This is sort of what I was talking about. Jeremy
in the parallel because with the populist movement. He was
no populist but one of the worst racial demagogue. But
it was a nineteen o eight Tilman Act against what
was then the large corporations or railroads. It said you
had to keep big money and particularly dark money out
(42:38):
of politics. That, when you know twenty ten was Citizens United,
I think was one of the great mistakes of the
Supreme Court and one of the most dangerous things, much
more so even than gutting of the Voting Rights Act
and things like that. Ultimately for democracy, at least that's
that's the way I read it. But that's why I
(42:59):
think there's gonna be another pendulum swing because of this.
It's exactly what happened after the Civil War in that
other Gilded age. You then had this age of reform,
and I think that's part of what young people are
going to be upset about. But I'm guessing, totally guess.
And you know, historians are not profits. We make a
lot more money Andrew's a profit, and we'll hear from him.
Speaker 13 (43:21):
Well.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
So, because we have an all male panel today, I
am glad that our next caller, Kim, is calling from
East Texas to have a little gender diversity. Kim, Welcome
to the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts. What do
you think democracy is at risk?
Speaker 11 (43:37):
Hi, Yes, absolutely I do. And I think the danger
this time is from Project twenty twenty five replacing people
with experience in government with siccophants and loyalty to Trump.
And I think that's what saved us, if you will,
the first time around, and those rills are in the
(44:02):
process coming down, And yeah, I think we're in a
lot of danger.
Speaker 7 (44:05):
Yes, I don't think it's a threat to democracy for
a president to have his own staff actually follow what
he wants. I think it's a threat to democracy to
have a class of bureaucrats who are actually so left
oriented and so in defense of the previous administration that
they block and stymy the initiatives of the incoming administration.
(44:31):
That is a danger to democracy. Democracy isn't endangered because
your particular policy views are not in favor. It's endangered
when people attempt to prevent democratic processes happening, and the
bureaucracy and the administrative state does do that. It really does.
He doesn't like certain things, it resists. Look at Trump's
(44:52):
ability to even change immigration. It's been an incredibly hard lift. Now,
I don't agree with getting rid of everyone and putting
every voting into political points, but I do think they
come to the point now, which when the civil service
is structurally opposed to you politically, you have a right
to get people who want to do what you want.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Let me squeeze one more call in and Philip, who
is calling from Pine Ridge, Colorado. Philip, welcome to the
middle your thoughts.
Speaker 10 (45:21):
You posed a very interesting question tonight, and I'm glad
you got to me. And I've got to say I
voted for Trump, first of all, but I would absolutely
say that he is a danger to democracy. I've got
to tell you why people mistake. People have been told
for decades that the US is a democracy, and it's not.
It was set up as a constitutional republic. And Donald
(45:42):
Trump has said many times in the past few years
that he would restore the republic. And what people miss
is that's why he's so loved is because for the
few of us that realize it's a constitutional republic, he's
seen as a person who's going to restore the government
to what it's supposed to have been.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Vernon Burton, that's a great, great one. To go to
you on the US as a constitutional republic, and we
heard there from a Trump voter, he says, this is
what we wanted.
Speaker 8 (46:10):
Well, it is a republic and that's how it works.
But again I go back to the rule of law.
And my concern has been the sort of I think
this is the first time when you get down to
it to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has been
totally out of touch with where most Americans are on
(46:33):
issues and things, particularly certain issues as of late, and
that worries me about a republic. But a republic is
there to make democracy work. I think we're we're I
think we're hanging up more on rhetoric than reality. Of course,
(46:57):
it's a republic of when you have something that lord.
But we've to go back to the beginning. You know,
the founding fathers did not see political parties. They didn't
want them, they didn't see them coming. Uh maybe that
was their fault. They should have. But I think that's
made a huge different political parties, and the sort of
(47:20):
lack of Congress to get things done has left a
vacuum that has allowed a shift in this balance of powers.
I fear again, I want to be careful and here
is certainly much more of a profit than I am.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
But you're gonna but you're gonna have the last word
here brand because because we've run out of time. So
let me say let me say thank you to let
me say thank you to both of you, Clemson University
history professor Vernon Burton and political commentator Andrew Sullivan. You
can subscribe to his substack in podcast, The Weekly Dish.
Thank you so much to both of you for joining us.
Speaker 7 (47:54):
You're so welcome.
Speaker 13 (47:55):
Thank you.
Speaker 8 (47:56):
I learned a lot and Andrew, thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, we've got We've got two new shows in the
next week. We're live with a special on many stations
on Inauguration Night, taking your calls, and then next week
I will be in Evansville, Indiana, with a focus on
Trump's deportation program, which should be underway as always.
Speaker 3 (48:13):
You can call in at eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
You can also sign up for our free weekly newsletter,
and don't forget to check out our new video podcast
on YouTube, where you can watch us as well as
hear us.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and Urbana Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmas, Dawes, John Barth, An Akadeshler,
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more than four hundred and twenty public radio stations making
it possible for people across the country to listen to
(48:47):
The Middle, I'm Jeremy Hobson, and I'll talk to you
next week.
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
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building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on
how you can support the Middle at listen to Themiddle
dot com. Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along
(00:21):
with our house DJ Tolliver, and of course you can
watch us live on YouTube, TikTok and Twitch, although Tolliver
maybe not TikTok for very long because it's about to
get banned.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
In the next few days.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
Boo.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
You know, it was the best of times. It was
the demurest of times. Thanks for the memories.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
The memeries. Okay, Well, the other thing that is happening
in the coming days is that Donald Trump will once
again be President of the United States, something that many
Americans view as devastating to US democracy, not least because
of Trump's unwillingness to accept the election results four years
ago in his role in what happened on January sixth,
twenty twenty one. So this hour, we want to know
(00:58):
if you thinkocracy is really in danger because of Trump's
return to the White House or number is eight four
four four middle. That's eight four four four six four
three three five three, And we'll get to your calls
in a moment. But first, last week we asked you
what should happen now with the US support of Ukraine.
Here are some of the calls that came in after
the show.
Speaker 4 (01:19):
Well, this is Bill Scher from Bethlehem, Pennsylvania. This is
not just about the Ukraine. It's about Poland, the Baltic Republics,
one country after another. Vladimi Poden wants to reconstitute the
Soviet Union and going further back in history, the Russian.
Speaker 5 (01:38):
Empire, NATO and the US should defend Ukraine from Russia.
Ukraine must be defended and allowed to join NATO, no
matter the cost.
Speaker 6 (01:50):
Hi, I'm Manny Moroda. I'm from Cleveland, Ohio. The war
is about what it's always been, pride. And I think
that if the solution is found where both Putin and
Tromp and NATO, if they all signed a solution that
can find them pride, then the war can end without
further loss of life or territory on either side, if
there is simply a maintenance of pride. And I think
(02:11):
that is what Trumps and Fotin should be focusing on
in their upcoming negotiations.
Speaker 1 (02:16):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in, and you can
hear that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
to podcasts. So now to our topic this hour, is
democracy really at risk as Trump retakes the White House?
And by the way, I want to hear from you
if you think it is at risk or if you
think that these concerns are overblown. Tolliver, can you give
(02:36):
us the number again please?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yeah, it's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four
four four six four three three five three, or you can.
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Write to us that listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 3 (02:44):
You can also comment on our new live stream on YouTube,
TikTok and Twitch.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Let's be at our panel. Political commentator Andrew Sullivan, who
writes the weekly Dish Substack and host the Companion podcast,
joins us. Andrew, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 7 (02:57):
Thanks for having me, Jeremy, and.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Clemson University is wan Vernon Burton joins us as well. Vernon,
great to have you back on the Middle.
Speaker 8 (03:04):
It's great to be back with you, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
So before we get to the phones, let me speak
to each of you. Andrew, do you think democracy is
at risk with Trump coming back into the White House?
Speaker 7 (03:15):
Not seriously at risk, I think. I mean, look, we
just had a big election, big turnout, and he won.
It's very hard to argue that a big democratic victory
is somehow the demise of democracy. It's just becomes surreal
when you start talking that way. Now, what am I
(03:36):
he do in office there? Who knows? And we can't
rule out the risk given the things that he said
in the past. But I found myself not as worried
this time as I was in twenty sixteen, and partly
because we have been through this before and we know
he didn't do it before, and so the chances of
him getting away with it now are pretty small. Also
(03:59):
to a very obvious fact. He has a five seat
majority in the House of Representatives so far, which may
well go down.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Well, it's lower now, right because of some people that
have been taken out of the House to go into
his administration.
Speaker 7 (04:14):
Yes, so it may come down to two or one
or two in the end. It's just really hard to
be a tyrant with a two seat majority in the House,
and you'd be lucky, especially when your party is as
divided as his is. I think he's at a high
watermark now and we'll see what will take place.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Furner, Britain. What do you think and give us the
historic context. Have there been moments in the past. Obviously
we think about the Civil War as a moment when
everything was at risk, But are there moments that you
compare this to and how does this stack up for you?
Speaker 9 (04:44):
Yes?
Speaker 8 (04:45):
And I think Jeremy that we need to realize the
question should be democracy always has been at risk, and
people understood that.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
You know.
Speaker 8 (04:54):
The famous quote by most historians is with Ben Franklin
when a woman ask him, you know, well, doctor, what
have we got a republic or a monarch? And Franklin replied,
a republic if you can keep it. And this has
to be put in the context to decline and follow.
The Roman Empire by Gibbon was hot off the Press
(05:15):
is in the seventeen seventies and his account of how
the Roman Republic slipped into tyranny when powerful men it
seduced or intimidated his citizens, so they became a stampeding mob,
hungry for bread and sert. They were worried about the
founders worried about it, Lincoln worried about it, and I
think what's interesting is we have not worried about it
very much since, and I think we should have because
(05:39):
democracy has never been static. I will say that this
period parallels more closely the Civil War reconstruction era than
in so many ways than ever before. My main concern
is belief in the rule of law. We started with
the idea of the rural law. People forget at the Declaration,
(06:01):
which is not part of the Constitution as all men
are created equal, that it was actually written to explain
the rule of law, of why a revolution was necessary,
so that people could live under the laws and be
governed by them. And I guess my greatest concern is
will the rule of law be used to undermine the
(06:25):
rule of law? And there have been a number of issues.
I've written the article, my co author of Justin Fird
wrote another article about the Supreme Court used there, But
in general we haven't seen law used to go after
people as enemies per se. So if that doesn't happen,
I will feel pretty comfortable and agree with Andrew, but
(06:48):
that would be my main concern there.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
On that point, Andrew about the rule of law. We
just had the president elect's nominee for Attorney General, Pan
Bondy in her hearing wouldn't say that Biden won the
twenty twenty election. Are you and was asked about, you know,
going after some of Trump's political enemies with the rule
(07:12):
of law. Are you worried about that that aspect?
Speaker 7 (07:16):
Well, I think that Democrats would have a stronger case
if they hadn't persecuted Trump with the political use of
the rule of law, specifically Alvin Brad case, which was
clearly an attempt to politically manipulate the law to prosecute
this guy because the DA didn't want it, didn't like him,
(07:37):
and because the DA would get popularity in New York
City if he indicted him. He did. He jinned up
this fake charge, turning a misdemeanor into a fello. I mean,
the whole thing was obviously corrupt. So it's not as
if we're starting from position in which one side is
sticking to the rule of law. On the other side,
(07:57):
isn't they did everything they could to use rule of
law to get rid of Trump, and I hope he
doesn't do the same thing in return. But a's clear
that that's what happened. The three other cases, of course,
are more legitimate. But again, when you're using the legal
process to circumvent a political process like impeachment, you are,
(08:22):
I think, twisting the rule of law in ways that
are dangerous, and no one points us out when the
Democrats do it, but everyone's extremely upset if Trump would
do it.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
Let's get a call in before the break. Here, Ryan
is in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Ryan, Welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Do you think democracy is at risk?
Speaker 10 (08:42):
I think that Trump's recent election adds to the endangerment
of democracy. But I think this question is almost forty
years too late. I think we really should have started
asking his democracy and danger as we started seeing the
industrialization hollow places like Peoria, Illinois, or Flint, Michigan, and
(09:03):
you started seeing jobs going overseas and the middle class
rapidly shrinking. I think that was a much more intense
and immediate threat to the fabrica democracy in this country.
And Trump is just adding to a process that's been
underway for almost two generations.
Speaker 11 (09:20):
Now.
Speaker 10 (09:21):
I think we really have to focus on the economic
issues when we want to think about is democracy under threat?
And you know, Trump is more of a symptom than
necessarily a cause.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
You're saying just the decline of the middle class is
the threat to democracy.
Speaker 10 (09:40):
I think the biggest threat to democracy is people's, you know,
the ability to pay the bills, keep themselves in their
homes and feed themselves. This is sort of this is
comparable to Weimar Germany in the nineteen twenties. If people
can't feed themselves, if people can't keep themselves in their
homes and think about tomorrow is potentially better or stable
is today, then they stop thinking about things like democracy
(10:03):
because they have to really focus on survival.
Speaker 1 (10:06):
Right, Thank you very much for that. Vernon Burton, your
thoughts on that.
Speaker 8 (10:10):
Well, I think there's a really good point there, and
I think it goes back that our generation we have
sort of thought of Martin Luther King Junior's the Arc
of Morrow, universe's loan, but it bends towards justice, and
we forget that Martin Luther King Jr. Was a theologian,
and he's talking about the end times even quotes in
(10:34):
that same great speech. Of course he's talking about John
on pat Mos and the end times as opposed to
as he says, very clearly, we have to be doing something.
And you know, I take my view as a person
of faith the same way that ultimately justice is going
to be okay, but we have to do things here.
(10:57):
And I do think there's a slight difference from what
Andrew was saying on the state case versus the threat
of using the federal government to go after enemies. I'm
hoping it will not happen, but I do think that
is something that will really undermine our belief in the
(11:19):
rule of law, and particularly I worry that the Supreme
Court when it basically said that the president is above
the law, that is, it's not quite that, but the
idea it goes against the sort of historical understanding that
no one is above the law. And with that kind
of of ruling, I think it, with a lot of others,
(11:43):
it is undermine a lot of people's faith in.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
I gotta, I gotta, I gotta stop you right there,
Vernon Burton, because Tolliver, the claims about trumping a threat
to democracy go right up to the top.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, here's President Biden delivering remarks to supporters about a
year ago in Pennsylvania.
Speaker 12 (12:00):
Democracy is still America's sacred cause. Is the most urgent
question of our time, and that's what the twenty twenty
four election is all about. The choice is clear. Donald
Trump's campaign is about him, not America, not you. Donald
Trump's campaign is obsessed with the past, not the future.
(12:22):
He's only to sacrifice our democracy. We must be clear.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Democracy is on the ballot well, and the people knew that, Tolliver,
and they still voted for Trump. So there we go.
And and by the way, we are going to be
doing a live new special show in just a few
days on Inauguration Night. The podcast will drop the next morning,
but we hope you'll tune in for that as well,
(12:49):
and we'll be right back with more of the Middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
In the Middle is a national call in show focused
on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
We are also available as a podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
(13:09):
to podcasts. This hour, we're asking you, is democracy really
at risk? Tolliver? What is the number of people to
call in?
Speaker 3 (13:15):
It's eight four four for Middle that's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
I'm joined by political commentator Andrew Sullivan of The Weekly
Dish and Clemson University history professor Vernon Burton. And before
we get back to the phones, Andrew, what about the press,
uh and the role of the media. We've seen obviously
over the last many years, newspapers disappear. We've seen a
lot of people get their information from these large tech
(13:44):
firms like Meta and x that are not operating like
normal news organizations. They're clearly trying to stay in good
graces with the incoming administration. Are the media up to
the task of safeguarding our democracy to the extent that
a free press does that?
Speaker 7 (14:01):
Yes, they want to. I mean it's perfectly possible to
print the news and to challenge people in government. There's
nothing stopping them. We still have a First Amendment. I
think some of this and considering what the media has
been over the last ten years, if you think about
how they have been lecturing us, controlling us, telling us
(14:24):
how to live our lives incessantly, a woke agenda imposed
from the top with no democratic input whatsoever. The idea
that the only threat democracy is coming from the right
is just silly. And when you hear Biden say democracy
is on the ballot, just think about what he just said.
(14:46):
Democracy is on the ballot. Democracy is the ballot. This
is not Weimar. We do not have one thousand percent
inflation and thirty percent unemployment. We have incredibly low unemployment.
We have strong growth, stronger than any other country in
the world. The question with democracy is are we going
(15:07):
to continue to have elections? Are we continue to be
able to choose who represents us? Yes, we will. Now
there's another question about liberal democracy, which is that do
we have the institutions to make sure that democracy doesn't
become the tyranny of the majority. And that's a question
that the press has to focus on. But I think
(15:29):
we're losing track of what democracy is. I think we're
losing perspective on the moment we're in. And for all
Trump's insane pronouncements, he is so much and has proven
to be. His bark has been so much bigger than
his bite. We've already been through this for four years.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Vernon Burton, what about that argument Andrew has said that, Now,
a couple of times that Trump was president before we've
been through this for four years, there was still an election.
I mean, he didn't show up to the inauguration. But
but you know, the democracy did continue after the first
Trump term.
Speaker 8 (16:05):
Yes, and I think Andrew was right to say that
gives us a pause to consider. I think that things
will continues. I said, I really believe we should have
been worried about democracy long before there was was Donald Trump.
And I was actually gonna throw this to both you
(16:26):
and Andrew because you are the media now. And remember
Walter Concrete sort of famous saying if I can paraphrase
that the press is not just important to democracy, it
is democracy. But one of the big changes that I
have seen in my lifetime is this idea. Well, if
you think about with Lincoln, people knew at the time
(16:49):
that the newspapers were political parties. The parties owned the newspapers,
and you know, we probably don't have time. One of
my favorite stories is in eighteen fifty he ate the
Lincoln Douglas debates, and you have to come down briefly.
The Democratic Party said Lincoln was totally ineborated and drunk.
Remember he was president of the Temperance Society. He gave
(17:12):
the most incoherent and terrible speech, and these followers had
to carry him out. He was so unable to walk.
Whereas the Whig paper said, it was the greatest, most
inspiring speech of all time. And his supporters put him
on their shoulders and hurrah, and carried him out in triumph.
(17:32):
And the only thing that they agreed on was that
he was carried out. Now, but people reading those papers
knew those papers were owned by a political party, and
I think that's a major difference. Today. We can all
point to the other people looking at the one that
we don't look at and say, oh, they're looking at
a bias one. But I think this is something people
(17:56):
need to learn to think critically again. And I'll just
do one hobby horse about democracy. You know, we don't
teach civics anymore in most schools, and even history is
being challenged and not put the emphasis on it. And
I'm not trying to. We really need still education, but
everybody believes in that, and yet you really need the humanity,
(18:18):
civics and history and political science to understand how government works.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Well, it's amazing.
Speaker 7 (18:26):
Over the last ten years all the major media establishment
moved so far to the left, became essentially mouthpieces to
the Biden administration, deliberately concealed the fact that he was
incompetent as the president, was unable to even function as president,
put every news story through the prison of critical race
(18:46):
theory and critical queer theory and critical gender theory. They
are the most partisan impressed we've had. NPR is the
most biased institution media.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
In the country.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
This is how you know the middle is different because
Andrew is on NPR stations and he's saying that right now.
Speaker 7 (19:07):
For all its laws, can you something different. That's why
it's successful. The substact world, the places that are actually
offering real journalism, unlike the New York Times, unlike NPR,
which are essentially become propaganda channels for the left, are
doing really well. We're booming. Not that we're right ringers
(19:28):
so much, but we haven't adopted a mentality that has
been imposed as an actual policy across all these major
media groups to defend and advance what they call social
justice at the expense of every other value in journalism.
They have lied to us again and again. We know it,
We've seen it. So I think we're already in a
(19:49):
nineteenth century situation, and the more different outlets the better,
and people need to they shouldn't be spoon fed their news.
They have figured out for themselves. That's to sort of
democracy really is. And it is a diversity of views.
It's a diversity of newspapers. And then I think we're
doing better now than we were five years ago or
(20:09):
ten years ago.
Speaker 8 (20:10):
I will say, just as a democracy, the panda educated citizenry, yes,
of course.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
But that doesn't But but you think, but that applies
to every sort of media that you might be, the
biased media of MPR or the biased media of Fox Media.
Speaker 1 (20:25):
I'm just gonna be I'm just gonna say one thing
is somebody who's been working in public radio since I
was a child, I do believe in public radio. I
do think that it should be credible across the political spectrum.
And I agree with you Andrew that at many times
in recent years it has not lived up to that.
But that's what we're trying to do here. So let's
(20:47):
get to another call. And Emmett is in the Bay
Area in California and is seventeen. Emmett, tell us, what
do you think about democracy? And whether it's at risk.
Speaker 9 (20:58):
I think it's very interesting at the two people on
this call or on the radio are talking about education,
because I currently I just took an AP government course.
I'm taking an AP economics course, and for my free
time when I drive, I listen to The Rise and
Fall of the Third Reich on audiobook by William L. Shire,
who's considered one of the most profound historians on the
(21:21):
rise of Nazism. And so the where I recently left
off is during the Weimar era, after the phil beer
Hall push, Hitler's turn was to take over through the
democratic nature of Germany. And so I think that while
I'm not saying Trump is Hitler by any means, I'm
saying that it is possible to take over a democracy
(21:44):
through democratic nature, and I think that through some of
the people that Donald Trump is appointing, they're yes men,
and I'm afraid that there won't be that democratic safeguards
to stop I'm not saying that right now Donald Trump
will end democracy, but it's there for the taking if
he's like it, and I think that it's very In
(22:05):
his first term, there were the safeguards, there were the
people in the war room in there with him to
say this is wrong, you are wrong, and they were
promptly fired most of the time.
Speaker 13 (22:15):
But there were those safeguards.
Speaker 9 (22:16):
I'm afraid that those are now going away, and I'm
afraid for what that means for democracy. And I think
because of that, democracy is at risk. That's all I
have to say. Thank you for having me on EMMED.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Thank you so much for that call. You know, there
are a lot of people Vernon Burton, I'll go to you.
There are a lot of people who do believe that.
They say the safeguards aren't there this time. Look at
the people that he's putting in this time. Some of
his impulses, you know, to sort of have one set
of rules for him and one set of rules for
everybody else would be anti democratic.
Speaker 8 (22:49):
Well, one of the things why I'm so glad that
our caller, the seventeen year old student, is taking these
ap government classes. We have a system of chicks and
balances and this hope it works. One of the things
we've seen is the way Congress has been has been
stalled in the Supreme Court, has done a lot of
things I think it normally would not have. But checks
(23:10):
and balances should work.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Let me go to uh, let me go to Joseph,
who's calling from Peedley, Missouri. Joseph, what do you think
is democracy at risk with Trump retaking the White House?
Speaker 14 (23:23):
Well, I mean Trump, I seen him kind of more
a symptom. I mean, he's a bit of a goofball.
He couldn't really hang with any of the great statesmen
of our past, but he does have the unique political
talents that our time requires. Are kind of tough mindedness
and a lot of all fizzle, no stake, media savvy.
I think that the real threat to democracy as we
(23:46):
have it right now, like the mass liberal democracy is
kind of built into the system. I mean, all of
the people who are trying to lead us worried about
misinformation are kind of right that a lot of people
do get easily swayed. But that begs the question should
these people who you know are you know, not even
(24:07):
people who are totally you know, too dumb or crazy
to vote, but just people like me who are too
busy to keep up with everything. You know, we're working
eight hours a day trying to keep the family together.
So you know, the media power really is what can
move the masses to vote for people and choose the
(24:31):
direction of the country. I mean, I personally think that
if we restricted the franchise to save democracy, I'd be
happy to give up my right to vote to labor
under a just and wise and competent government rather than
having to deal with these short term grenetic bouncing back
and forth of.
Speaker 7 (24:54):
Democracy. Right there, that's the threat to democracy. The views
that the most people are to to vote for their
own interests, that's what.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
They get.
Speaker 7 (25:06):
Some of them died, he trusted, I don't. I really,
I think the Viyma stuff is massively overblown. We have
two hundred years of constitutional government. The resistance is not
supposed to come from within the executive branch. It's to
come from the Congress and the courts and the States
and the media and everything else. And I was worried,
(25:28):
very worried in twenty sixteen. But I've watched this process,
and you know, the courts have fought back against both
presidents the I don't think the recent court decision on
immunity is anything like a sweeping as Villain said it was.
And he has a one or two seat majority in
the House. Again, I repeat that that's incredibly hard to
(25:52):
force policies upon people they don't want, and certainly, ins
far as he was elected, he was replacing someone who
was in forcing policies the people didn't want. Mass immigration,
open borders was something no one wanted, but the Democrats
gave us anyway because they thought it was good for us.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, tolliver Y, Hey, Vernon, let me let's just go.
Let's just wait to hear a couple of comments that
are coming in here online.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
Very spicy.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Yeah so, Carmelia and Atlanta says, the instability of the
middle class is a threat to democracy. Is a great
point that is actually illustrated quite colorfully.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
In Squid Game season two.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
A two party democratic season can lead to conflict and
at worse, bloodshed. Brianon Demm says the Federalist Society Project
twenty twenty five. These are all chipping away at our democracy.
Trump is a useful idiot. Literally all the comments are
this spicy.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
It's crazy. It's a big one today. Uh and then
let's go.
Speaker 3 (26:46):
Trump has the stantial immunity and keeps pushing for that
to apply to non presidential issues.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Trump bragged about.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Being able to shoot someone and get away with it.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
Wild wild, wild stuff.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
Today you get that comment at listen to the middle
dot com Vernon Burton, you were about to say.
Speaker 8 (26:58):
Yeah, I just I don't know if and would agree
with me not. But my observation of the twenty sixteen
four years of President Trump is I don't think that
President Trump understands very well how government works, and so
in some ways that's a reassurance to me that he
would not know how to undermine it very well, even
(27:21):
if he intended. I'm not saying he intends to, but
I think in support you asked me earlier other peeros
and just you know, I wasn't quite born then, but
we had the McCarthy era, and of course I grew
up with the Jim Crow era of white supremacists. One
thing that has bothered me, though, is, except for the
(27:42):
Civil War era when people would refer to Abraham Lincoln
as an ape or an animal, I think the language
even the white supremacist.
Speaker 7 (27:51):
Of the.
Speaker 8 (27:53):
Era of which I grew up in and the Jim
Crow per they never sort of demonized their opponents so much.
They were within the political process. And I'm not sure
how that's going to play out, but it is something
I have some concern with because language is very important.
I think, and the only other period I can come
(28:14):
up with it I've looked at is before the Civil
War and the Civil War reconstruction era.
Speaker 7 (28:22):
Jeremy, a democratically elected president could become a dictate right,
he would use an emergency, a disaster the Reichstag fire
in Germany to seize power, to tell people God to
seize his power because order now. Trump was given too
unbelievably good opportunities to do that. He was given an
(28:45):
epidemic which could have given him the power to use
the federal government to control every part of our lives.
Turns out he didn't really want to do that. In fact,
he was kind of hostile to it. In the summer
of twenty twenty when cities were burnings were going on.
He could have sent the military, he could have used
that as a pretext. He didn't. So we've had two
(29:08):
cases where he had it for the taking and look
the other way. The other thing is he's not interested
in going to war now. Tyrants people who want to
destroy democracies love wars. He's not one of them. He's
a strange character because he's very anti interventionist. He wants peace,
(29:28):
he wants appeasement, in many ways. So that's another reason
I don't think he really wants to be a dictator
or would have the ability to become one.
Speaker 10 (29:38):
Well.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Stand by, because Tolliver, there are those people who say
Donald Trump does not post a threaten to democracy, including
people who otherwise criticize him quite a bit.
Speaker 3 (29:47):
Yeah, his former National security advisor John Bolton is certainly
no friend of Trump these days, but he doesn't think
Trump is going to bring about the end of democracy.
Speaker 15 (29:54):
We've had boiling points in this country. We're almost called
the civil war. We're nowhere close to that rhetoric. To
the contrary, notwithstanding, I think Trump could cause a lot
of damage if he's reelected. I've been saying that for
several years now. I do not think he is an
existential threat to our democracy, and I think it's in
fact harmful to say that. That's the kind of rhetoric
(30:16):
I think we could do without.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
Yeah, Toliver, John Bolton really doesn't like Trump these days.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
I've heard.
Speaker 13 (30:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Yeah, We'll be right back with more of your calls
coming up on the middle. This is the Middle. I'm
Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're asking you, is democracy really
at risk? As Trump retakes the presidency, you can call
us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight four
four four six four three three five three. You can
also reach out at listen to Themiddle dot com. I'm
(30:44):
joined by Clemson University history professor Vernon Burton and political
commentator Andrew Sullivan of The Weekly Dish. And the phone
lines are full, So let's get to Alex in Atlanta. Alex,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (30:55):
Go ahead.
Speaker 10 (30:57):
So, I think there's a lot of ways you can
look at it, and I'll try to take I guess
more of a centrist stance, where there are a few
presidents throughout the last one hundred years or so even
that you can look at that responded by using a
lot of their power to take drastic measures. You know.
(31:18):
One example you can look at is FDR using the
New Deal, packing the courts to get the New Deal
passed through in order to sort of fix the Great Depression.
And then you can look at like Ronald Reagan who
saw a lot of the economic turmoil in the seventies
(31:41):
and then use his presidential powers to sort of go
crazy with the regulation and pushing forward his conservative agenda.
So I think that if Trump uses sort of the
most of his power. You're going to get something maybe
in between those.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
M so the presidential power and of course Vernon Burton,
the power of the presidency is bigger now than it
has been, isn't it Well?
Speaker 8 (32:12):
And I'll be honest what Andrew thinks. I we don't
know yet what it is going to mean in terms
of this ruling that says the presidence above the law
at least as long as as presidential duties thing has
going to be interpreted. But if as I read it,
(32:33):
uh and and with you know, to to to make
it clear, I had an amicus brief in fact, which
laid out the history and and the court just sort
of ignored all the history and the precedence and everything
to to come to that ruling. But we really haven't
had it tested yet. We'll have to. We'll have to see.
(32:55):
I don't know if Andrew agrees or not with it.
I go either way.
Speaker 7 (32:59):
I think really good. John Roberts has written that it's
not meant to be that sweet, right, and I don't
think when you read it closely it reads that way.
But imagine Jeremy for example, and that the president today
said I'm going to get a whole bunch of legal
citizens and put them in camps for four years. I'm
(33:21):
going to get re elected four times, three times. Rather,
I'm going to have such a big majority in the
Congress that I can do anything I want. That was fdr.
We had to have a constitutional amendment to brind that
happening again. It's just when you actually look at some
get some perspective on this, you realize that, in fact, no,
(33:42):
we may be moving away from the liberal democracy when
we were able to have real conversations that fantably we
were able to come together the kind of conversation we're
having now, we may be more in a more sort
of rambunctious, polarized period. But this constant is a pretty
good one. It has lasted really well, and we'll see
(34:07):
how it does. It survived one term of Trump. And look,
I do think that the attempt to squelch in, to
get rid of him, to short circuit democracy through the
law or through other measures, backfired. And the American people
said very clearly, we don't think he's a threat to
our democracy. We're voting for him again. And I in
(34:30):
the end trust their judgment. I do I trust their jobs.
If he does something crazy and I want you torus.
I didn't vote for him either time. I've been one
of the sharpest critics of him. I disagree with him
on many issues. I think his rhetoric is insanely deranged.
I think he should never be present. But I don't
think he's going to destroy our democracy. That's all.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
I think they could have had an ad with you
in it for the Trump campaign saying that I don't
like him, I didn't vote for him, but I don't
think he's going to the democracy. Let's go to Aaron,
who's in Titan, Wyoming. Aaron, welcome to the middle. Go
ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 16 (35:07):
Yeah, Hi, thank you honor to be on with your
two guests. Andrew, I follow you a lot and I
admire you a lot. I think you're brilliant. I do
think you took a cheap shot to MPR, which I
am not brought proud of you for that one. Anyways, Well, yeah,
I mean, yeah, yeah. One of the things that Vernon mentioned,
(35:29):
which is kind of what I think is more fundamental
with the risk, is that we don't talk about enough,
is you know you have you have in our society,
especially now with the diversity we have in every community.
I think anyone that's grown up in the United States.
I grew up in Virginia, Michigan, California, I'm in Wyoming.
Everywhere I've been, I felt there was a level of
(35:51):
attention among neighbors. It's just a natural thing that exists
when humans try to live among humans. And it was
your coach on the team, or the principle of the
high school, or the city mayor or the governor, or
ideally the president that made civilized nations civilized where we
didn't have viture all towards people that we didn't agree with.
We could disagree, but we didn't get violent with them.
(36:12):
And I think one of the roles of every president
that's important to me when I vote is not so
much even policies anymore, because they don't control as many
policies as you think. There's a big government that does that,
and quite frankly, policies change and they ebb and flow
over the years. I think what's going to affect my
life on my kids' lives more than anything is the
attitude in the atmosphere, in the tone of the nation,
(36:33):
and if neighbors can live peacefully among neighbors because the
role models in our society make us realize they shame
us if they shame us if we're not behaving, and
they praise us when we do when we do act
courteous to our neighbors. And I think the big risk
with Trump is he viciously attacks people that he doesn't
agree with in a hatred way, not an unfriendly way,
(36:56):
in a hatred way. And he called Gavin k Newso
new scum.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
In the middle in the middle of the fires, and
and and yeah.
Speaker 16 (37:04):
Right, So it's like, why would you if you start
demonizing and start making people hate each other because they
don't agree with you politically, they don't agree with you.
You know, they're from the blank whole countries, the immigrant
you know.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
It's right now, we got your point. Let me let
me take that to Vernon Burton. That's a very good point.
What about that neighborlyiness? Uh and and just sort of
the tone of our politics, that is that in itself
a threat to having the kind of democracy that we
have in the United States.
Speaker 8 (37:30):
Well, yes it is. And that's what I said about
education is where I was going with the use of
a term vermin in this I said look, I look
back to see if that kind of language had been
used before, and really just the civil Civil War. But
I think there's something besides just the neighborlingdess and these
sorts of things. Uh, that is is really important. That's
(37:52):
another parallel we haven't talked about. And then the parallels
that follow in history. What we have now pairallels what
was Mark Twain called the gilded Age after Civil War reconstruction,
when what you had what extremes in wealth, and that's
where we are going now. It seems to me. I
hope I'm wrong, and we'll see what kind of what
(38:14):
happens with the policies that are passed. But certainly with
the first time there was reaction with the People's Party
commonly known as the Populist Party that brought about a
lot of reforms through the progressive era at that time.
And I think there and one other parallel for me
is it reminds me of my oncoming age of the
sixties and when in fact, young people decided that the
(38:39):
generation before hadn't done a very good job and they're
going to do something. You begin to have cities and
things like that. I really do think young people today
are a little tired of looking and saying, look at
off these old people who have been president. They have
messed up, they have not done a good job. And
I don't know which way it's gonna go, but I
(39:00):
do think there's a movement or the stirrings of a
similar kind of time of the sixties among young people,
particular in things like the environment and other issues that
be interesting to see what happened and what comes out
of it. That ass your question, Jeremy, I went.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
On, Yeah, that was very interesting. Let me go to Brett,
who's in Totonia, Idaho. Brett, welcome to the middle. Are
you worried about democracy?
Speaker 13 (39:26):
Well, you couldn't have picked a better person to get
to following Jeremy because he's just on the other side
of the tetons from me. But worried about democracy? Democracy,
that's a big word, probably with a lot of ways
that you could look at it. But as far as
the ability to vote, do I think Donald Trump's going
to ruin our ability to have a fair and honest vote?
(39:50):
Probably not. But what I do worry about is, and
it was prior to Donald Trump, but is the introduction
to the money level that is going on in our
democracy and also the lack of what seems to be
our society are how we are educated on what is
really going on right, And it seems like a lot
(40:13):
of people react to the last worst thing that they've
heard Brett, and that is go ahead.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
I was gonna say that. I want to I want
to ask Andrew about the money issue, because that's a
really important one. And I also want to say the
middle is obviously hot on both sides of the Titans.
So thank you for that, Andrew, what about that? That's
the second caller that's brought that up. We've got Elon Musk,
the richest man in the world, now having an enormous
amount of sway. Is that is this oligarchy that Biden
(40:41):
warned about in his Goodbye address a threat?
Speaker 7 (40:45):
Well, we should notice by partisan the Kamala Harris raised
much more money from a lot more holigoqics than Donald
Trump is and historically Trump has kind of animated all
of those people. They're now coming around him because they
want to suck up to him. Yeah, I don't think
it's a good thing that these people exercise too much influence.
I will happen and I don't and I don't like
(41:08):
the access they buy. Although it's not new obviously, it's
not like we haven't had this stuff many times before.
I will say this though, if you think that Elon
Musk and Donald Trump are going to get along for
four years, you have no idea. If you think, I
mean already, vivac is a is a casualty. Last last
week Steve Bannon called Elon Musk an evil man. These
(41:32):
these people are not stable characters. They're big egos. I
give them a few weeks before they blow up with
Donald Trump and leave in disgrace. So I you know,
And and money affects all sorts of things. But money
at this point and the wealthy are far more on
the Democrats side on the Republicans. It's true, I think
(41:55):
at this point, except for a few opportunists right now,
but in Chen that's the case. The Reroblicans have become
more of a working class party. And on questions like immigration,
you know, all the money, all the money, people want
more immigration, they want cheap foreign labor as much as
they can get. So in some ways Trump represents a
(42:15):
resistance to that force of money.
Speaker 8 (42:18):
This is sort of what I was talking about. Jeremy
in the parallel because with the populist movement. He was
no populist but one of the worst racial demagogue. But
it was a nineteen o eight Tilman Act against what
was then the large corporations or railroads. It said you
had to keep big money and particularly dark money out
(42:38):
of politics. That, when you know twenty ten was Citizens United,
I think was one of the great mistakes of the
Supreme Court and one of the most dangerous things, much
more so even than gutting of the Voting Rights Act
and things like that. Ultimately for democracy, at least that's
that's the way I read it. But that's why I
(42:59):
think there's gonna be another pendulum swing because of this.
It's exactly what happened after the Civil War in that
other Gilded age. You then had this age of reform,
and I think that's part of what young people are
going to be upset about. But I'm guessing, totally guess.
And you know, historians are not profits. We make a
lot more money Andrew's a profit, and we'll hear from him.
Speaker 13 (43:21):
Well.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
So, because we have an all male panel today, I
am glad that our next caller, Kim, is calling from
East Texas to have a little gender diversity. Kim, Welcome
to the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts. What do
you think democracy is at risk?
Speaker 11 (43:37):
Hi, Yes, absolutely I do. And I think the danger
this time is from Project twenty twenty five replacing people
with experience in government with siccophants and loyalty to Trump.
And I think that's what saved us, if you will,
the first time around, and those rills are in the
(44:02):
process coming down, And yeah, I think we're in a
lot of danger.
Speaker 7 (44:05):
Yes, I don't think it's a threat to democracy for
a president to have his own staff actually follow what
he wants. I think it's a threat to democracy to
have a class of bureaucrats who are actually so left
oriented and so in defense of the previous administration that
they block and stymy the initiatives of the incoming administration.
(44:31):
That is a danger to democracy. Democracy isn't endangered because
your particular policy views are not in favor. It's endangered
when people attempt to prevent democratic processes happening, and the
bureaucracy and the administrative state does do that. It really does.
He doesn't like certain things, it resists. Look at Trump's
(44:52):
ability to even change immigration. It's been an incredibly hard lift. Now,
I don't agree with getting rid of everyone and putting
every voting into political points, but I do think they
come to the point now, which when the civil service
is structurally opposed to you politically, you have a right
to get people who want to do what you want.
Speaker 1 (45:12):
Let me squeeze one more call in and Philip, who
is calling from Pine Ridge, Colorado. Philip, welcome to the
middle your thoughts.
Speaker 10 (45:21):
You posed a very interesting question tonight, and I'm glad
you got to me. And I've got to say I
voted for Trump, first of all, but I would absolutely
say that he is a danger to democracy. I've got
to tell you why people mistake. People have been told
for decades that the US is a democracy, and it's not.
It was set up as a constitutional republic. And Donald
(45:42):
Trump has said many times in the past few years
that he would restore the republic. And what people miss
is that's why he's so loved is because for the
few of us that realize it's a constitutional republic, he's
seen as a person who's going to restore the government
to what it's supposed to have been.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Vernon Burton, that's a great, great one. To go to
you on the US as a constitutional republic, and we
heard there from a Trump voter, he says, this is
what we wanted.
Speaker 8 (46:10):
Well, it is a republic and that's how it works.
But again I go back to the rule of law.
And my concern has been the sort of I think
this is the first time when you get down to
it to the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court has been
totally out of touch with where most Americans are on
(46:33):
issues and things, particularly certain issues as of late, and
that worries me about a republic. But a republic is
there to make democracy work. I think we're we're I
think we're hanging up more on rhetoric than reality. Of course,
(46:57):
it's a republic of when you have something that lord.
But we've to go back to the beginning. You know,
the founding fathers did not see political parties. They didn't
want them, they didn't see them coming. Uh maybe that
was their fault. They should have. But I think that's
made a huge different political parties, and the sort of
(47:20):
lack of Congress to get things done has left a
vacuum that has allowed a shift in this balance of powers.
I fear again, I want to be careful and here
is certainly much more of a profit than I am.
Speaker 1 (47:36):
But you're gonna but you're gonna have the last word
here brand because because we've run out of time. So
let me say let me say thank you to let
me say thank you to both of you, Clemson University
history professor Vernon Burton and political commentator Andrew Sullivan. You
can subscribe to his substack in podcast, The Weekly Dish.
Thank you so much to both of you for joining us.
Speaker 7 (47:54):
You're so welcome.
Speaker 13 (47:55):
Thank you.
Speaker 8 (47:56):
I learned a lot and Andrew, thank you.
Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah, we've got We've got two new shows in the
next week. We're live with a special on many stations
on Inauguration Night, taking your calls, and then next week
I will be in Evansville, Indiana, with a focus on
Trump's deportation program, which should be underway as always.
Speaker 3 (48:13):
You can call in at eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can.
Speaker 2 (48:18):
Reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 3 (48:20):
You can also sign up for our free weekly newsletter,
and don't forget to check out our new video podcast
on YouTube, where you can watch us as well as
hear us.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and Urbana Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmas, Dawes, John Barth, An Akadeshler,
and Brandon Condritz. Our technical director is Jason Croft. Thanks
to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and the
more than four hundred and twenty public radio stations making
it possible for people across the country to listen to
(48:47):
The Middle, I'm Jeremy Hobson, and I'll talk to you
next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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