June 7, 2024 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle we're asking you: how will the ongoing conflict in Israel and Gaza impact the way you vote this November? We're joined by former NPR international correspondent Deborah Amos and Democratic political strategist Yvette Simpson. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #Gaza #Israel #MiddleEast #War #Biden #Trump
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
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Speaker 2 (00:10):
And news organizations.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
More information on how you can support the Middle at
Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I'm Jeremy Hobson, joined as always by our house DJ
Tolliver and Tolliver. Last week we shifted topics at the
last minute because of the Trump verdicts that this week
we're bringing the very important topic that had to be bumped.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Yeah, and I think this is like the story of
the years. I'm really glad we could circle back to it.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
You know.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, it certainly has the potential to grow into a
much bigger conflict and has really seen an emotional response
here in the United States. Of course, we're talking about
the war in the Middle East, which is a war
that the US is involved in but is not directly
fighting in. As we remember, it started with the brutal
Hamas attack on Israel on October seventh. Israel's response has
led to devastation in Gaza and tens of thousands of deaths.
(01:01):
So our question to you this hour, how might the
war in the Middle East affect your vote.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Tolliver, what is the number of people to call.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
In It's eight four four four Middle that's eight four
four four six four it three three five three or
write to us at Listen to the middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
And before we introduce our panel, last week, we asked
you about your thoughts on the guilty verdict in the
Trump trial.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Here is what some of you had to say.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
This is James Colin from red wing Minnesota.
Speaker 6 (01:25):
I'm calling for Murphy, North Carolina. My name is Karen Jordan.
Speaker 7 (01:29):
My my name is Chris bos Can.
Speaker 8 (01:30):
Call from beautiful Alpadena, California.
Speaker 6 (01:33):
HI. This is Deborah and I live in Augusta, Georgia.
Speaker 9 (01:36):
I was pleased to hear the verdict today just because
no one should be above the law in this country.
Speaker 10 (01:43):
I am not happy about the verdict. All those jurors
should be questioned.
Speaker 6 (01:49):
I'm a Republican and I believe in law and order,
and I think law and order were done today. This
is shameful that's happening in our government. But maybe it
teaches us a lesson be careful who you vote for.
Speaker 7 (02:02):
I don't think that is criminal.
Speaker 11 (02:05):
Conviction is really a loss at all.
Speaker 8 (02:07):
This is not the case that's going to energize young people.
That is going to mean either the victory or defeat
of the Democratic Party in November is getting young people
eighteen to twenty.
Speaker 10 (02:17):
Five out to vote.
Speaker 9 (02:19):
This case, it ain't gonna do it well.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Thanks to everyone who called in. So now to our
topic this hour, the war in Israel and Gaza. Since
the Hamas attack and Israel's response, the Biden administration has
tried for a delicate balancing act, standing by the US
ally Israel while calling for more humanitarian aid to Gaza
and trying to avoid a wider war.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
In the region.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Needless to say, not everyone is happy with that balance,
especially on the left and at university campuses. That was
at Columbia University. Worth noting that President Biden has now
called for a ceasefire himself off, while former President Trump
(03:01):
has said that Israel needs to quote finish the war fast.
So our question for the hour, how might the war
in the Middle East affect your vote?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Again?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Our number is eight four four four six four three
three five three. I don't really need to give it
out again, Tolliver, because the lines are already full on
this conversation I just want to ask that we have
a civil conversation even when we disagree. That's what the
show is all about. So let's meet our panel. Deborah Amos,
longtime international correspondent formerly with NPR, now professor at Princeton,
joining us from Berlin. Deb great to have you with
(03:29):
us again.
Speaker 12 (03:30):
Hi, good morning from me.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Good good morning.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And democratic political strategist Yvette Simpson joins us from Cincinnati.
She's the former executive director of Democracy for America and
current host of the Power of Why podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Vett Welcome to.
Speaker 13 (03:43):
The middle Thanks for having me, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Well, and before we get to the phones, people don't
tend to vote on foreign policy issues, but we also
don't tend to see protests like we have with this war.
Do you each see this as an issue that could
have a meaningful impact on the US election?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And I'll start with you Deb in Berlin.
Speaker 12 (04:03):
It seems so. I mean, who knows what people will
do when they walk into the voting booth, because there
are two starkly different choices, and also starkly different choices
about how a president, whoever wins, will deal with them
at least, but this one has polarized in ways that. Look,
(04:25):
I'm a long time at least correspondent. I have never
seen anything like this. It's the same in Europe. I'm
in Berlin. There have been protests here. It's just extraordinary
how connected people are with this issue.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Why is that, by the way, why do you think
that is that you've never seen anything like this, but
it's happening now because this conflict has been going on
for a very long time.
Speaker 12 (04:49):
I think there's a couple of things to think about.
One the Black Lives Matter protests in twenty one twenty two,
it was called the American antifada because I think black
Americans saw the Palestinian struggle as something akin to theirs.
I think the latest protests. I just brought a substack
(05:13):
about this and talked to somebody at Human Rights Watch
who said, look, this is such a culmination of authoritarianism,
of Brexit, of COVID, of climate change, and young people
are disgusted with the world that they are inheriting, and
so the protests are about anger about what they will
(05:39):
what we are going to leave them. And I think
that that is an interesting way to look at it.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
What about you, do you see this as an issue
that is going to have a meaningful impact on the
election this fall.
Speaker 14 (05:52):
I think so.
Speaker 13 (05:53):
And here's why. So you've got several coalitions that the
Democrats need to win and battled in this right. Jewish
people are a huge part of our voting coalition. We
would have won Pennsylvania without the strong outpouring of Jewish support.
You've got the Muslim coalition that we built up to
win Michigan.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
You've got young.
Speaker 13 (06:11):
People who saved our hides all across the country. You've
got African Americans who saved us in Georgia. These are
all key states, not just for the presidential but for
Senate races too, and those margins were really thin. And
even if people don't go into the polling location thinking
about it, think about the young people and all of
the progressives and all of these people that we need
to organize right now. The election starts now. So we
(06:34):
need them volunteering, we need them knocking on doors, we
need them enthusiastic because, as we know, Democrats fall in love,
but Republicans will fall in line, and so we need
everybody in love with the president. And if they're not,
then they disengage. And we need full engagement in this election.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
And I should just say to our listeners that one
of the reasons we wanted to have you on as
a Democratic strategist is because most of the people who
are really angry about this are on the left and
this country, so we wanted to make sure that we
had someone like you, who really understands so much about
the Democratic Party to help us talk as we hear
from our listeners who are calling in. I do want
to say though, that you know, when you look broadly
(07:12):
at the candidates. President Biden, as we said, has recently
called for a ceasefire. Former President Trump has said Israel
should get the war over with quickly, although he reportedly
told donors at a closed door meeting that he would
quote crush Palestinian protesters in this country. And then there
is the independent candidate, Robert F. Kennedy Junior, who has said, quote,
(07:33):
Israel is doing more right now to protect human life
and has done more over the past sixteen years to
avoid this outcome than we would expect of any nation
in the world. So pretty favorable to Israel with him
as well. Deborah Amos, do you see a big difference
between the candidates on the issues happening in the Middle East.
Speaker 12 (07:51):
Oh yeah, Look, let's just look at Nikki Haley's visit
to Israel where she wrote on a bomb finish them.
Is she talking about how US? Is she talking about
the Palestinians? That is not clear. And I think there
is a big difference. And all of those activists who
(08:12):
aren't falling in love, maybe the right strategy is falling
in line, because if that is what they're concerned about,
they really don't have a place to go. I've been
an American for a long time and I've learned to
puld my nose on a number of occasions that's often
(08:35):
what we get. So yeah, I think that there is
a stark difference.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Let's go to the phones and Jane, who's in Egan, Minnesota. Jane,
welcome to the Middle Go ahead. Is the situation in
the Middle East going to affect your vote?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (08:53):
So I am eighteen years old and it's gonna be
my first election that I can vote in. And I
grew up there very political and looked forward to my
first vote, like counting down the years.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
It felt like because I was so excited, and I
felt like that joy was taken away because there is
no there is no one that can align with my values.
Speaker 15 (09:18):
I am willing.
Speaker 16 (09:19):
To accept the fact that.
Speaker 7 (09:23):
There that, you know, after the primaries and all that stuff,
but there isn't always going to be a person that
you completely and one hundred percent agree with that are
gonna win better better the too.
Speaker 8 (09:33):
You know, most.
Speaker 15 (09:36):
I as a call as someone who's vote who's been
protesting in college campus and on my college at my
college campus, I cannot vote for Biden.
Speaker 7 (09:48):
Who is something who is someone who.
Speaker 16 (09:50):
You know I would have voted for.
Speaker 7 (09:52):
But this is not something I can bite my tongue at.
This is not something that is willing that I'm willing
to just accept that that isn't. I cannot vote for Biden.
And I, you know, for a long time, was under
the belief that, you know, you don't vote for the
two major people, then you're throwing your vote away, and
you know, I think there's some truth to that, But
(10:13):
I also think that the country doesn't realize that every year,
new voters are getting added to the population of voters.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Right, So so sorry, Jane, I don't need to interrupt,
but just just briefly, are you going to vote for
a third party candidate?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Are you're not going to vote. What's your plan?
Speaker 10 (10:26):
I plan on.
Speaker 15 (10:27):
Voting for a third party.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
I don't believe.
Speaker 17 (10:29):
Oh my god, I'm getting pulled over.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Be careful, be careful, Jane's first. Sorry, Sorry, oh my god.
Hope everything is okay there. Don't get pulled over for
calling into the middle.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
It's not worth it. Vett, though, what do you think
about what Jane had to say there?
Speaker 13 (10:44):
You know, I think we know that young people are
the engine of change in our country, right, go back
to Vietnam War, go back to every the civil rights movement.
Young people are powering the future. And I don't agree
that we should have young people voting third party. I
think that they should all vote for the candidate that
(11:06):
is the best candidate who can win. But also democracy
is about making sure that you are earning a vote.
And so these young people who have been living in
a state of war since they were born. Remember these
are the nine to eleven kids who lived through Iraq,
through Afghanistan. They are strongly anti war, they are strongly
(11:26):
pro diplomacy, and so we need to make sure that
we are listening to them and engaging them.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Well, Tolliver, As we said earlier, protests over this conflict
have popped up at college campuses all over the country.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
You know, a lot of people have drawn comparisons to
the protest movement against the Vietnam War. Here's President Nixon's
thoughts on the protests after the US invasion of Cambodia
in nineteen seventy.
Speaker 18 (11:47):
Those who protest want peace, they want to reduce American casualties,
and they want our boys brought home. I made the decision, however,
for the very reasons that they are protesting. And as
far as affecting my decision is concerned their protests, I
am concerned about. I am concerned because I know how
(12:08):
deeply they feel. But I know that what I have
done will accomplish the goals that they want.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Wow, so interesting to hear that now, just I mean,
there's so many comparisons to things Tolliver that have happened
in the past.
Speaker 19 (12:21):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, we try to point them out on this show.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
By the way, one of the goals that we have
is to get our podcast rated highly, and so if
you can do that for us, that would be wonderful.
Wherever you listen to podcasts, write a review, and also
you can give to the middle in a tax deductible
way at listen to them Middle dot com. We'll be
right back with more of your calls. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
(12:46):
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle. This hour,
we're asking you how might the war in the Middle
East affect your vote? Tolliver, what is the number for
people to call in safely not driving safely?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us a Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I'm joined by former NPR International correspondent Debor Amos and
Democratic political strategist Yvette Simpson. And let's go right back
to the phones. And Harry, who is in Missouri City, Texas. Harry,
welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 10 (13:24):
Go ahead, Yes, my thank on. This is Brian. Vote
has been affected. I didn't vote for Joe Biden last
time for reasons winning Senator bidener A five of things
I disagree with I won't vote for him or Donald Trump.
I am voting for a third party candidate. And these
people that we call the Palestinians, like Gooldemeier said, there
(13:46):
arnold Palestinians. I use the ancient name. I use Palaschet
or Judea Palacehet is what comet? What's the anxious?
Speaker 15 (13:53):
Uh?
Speaker 10 (13:54):
What was called Egypt before? What was called Egypt was
cobt so those names I used.
Speaker 6 (14:00):
It.
Speaker 10 (14:01):
A bunch of people got killed today with this bomb
that they said that it was the US bomb and
uh a few weeks ago and that well that he
got killed, that was the US bomb. And I just
can't support Joe Biden his genocide war with Satan Yahu
and the right wing Sietist that yet he supports Harry.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Thank you, Harry, thank you for that, Thank you for
that call. Let me let me go to deb Amos
with the question. You know, Harry brings up some of
the recent incidents that have happened. It does seem like
just about every week there's a big incident in the
region that that occurs a lot of people, innocent people killed.
And one of the things that's very interesting here is
what are the incentives for either side in the conflict
(14:45):
Hamas and Israel to actually end this war because uh
they you know, for him, as I've read that this
is the thing that has made Israel and international pariah
more than anything they could have imagined. And for Israel,
there are questions of what net and Yahoo would be
immediately kicked.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Out of power if the war ended.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
So deb amos, what are the things that are going
on in the region that may be keeping this going
on longer than, of course the United States would like.
Speaker 12 (15:10):
So at the moment, there is a ceasefire proposal that
Joe Biden, President Biden unveiled, but in fact it is
an Israeli proposal, and almost immediately, you know, the Israeli
Prime Minister began to walk back from it. He is
(15:32):
under pressure from his extreme right wing who say that
they will leave his government if he ends the war.
And he's also under pressure from members of his war
cabinet who say they will leave his government if he
doesn't come up with a day after plan. Now, there
are negotiators in Egypt that is still going on. But
(15:54):
here's the problem, and it's very stark. Netanyahu doesn't want
to end the war, he says, because it could trigger
an election. He could lose his job. Even President Biden.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Mentioned that this week.
Speaker 12 (16:09):
Sinoar, the head of Hamas, who is in a tunnel underground,
only wants one thing, and that is a guarantee that
the war will end. And so far Israel has not
given that assurance, and so that's where the talks stand.
The last thing I read is that Hamas wants a
(16:30):
written guarantee that the war will end. I'm not sure
if they will get it. This may be the last chance.
The families of the hostages are apoplectic about what is happening.
It's interesting who supports the ceasefire. The ultra religious, the
Orthodox came out today and they said that they do
(16:51):
support a ceasefire. But whether that makes any difference in
Yahoo's calculations, we will have to see. But I Thanksah.
In one news report a twenty five chance of a ceasfire,
so we may not move that dial any further.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Let's go to Aditha, who is in Longmont, Colorado.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Welcome to the Middle go ahead, Hey.
Speaker 8 (17:16):
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 6 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (17:18):
I think that the war in the Middle East is
an important issue, but I don't think it's the be all,
end all issue, And I think it's very naive in
twenty twenty four to focus on one particular issue when
there's a flew of political issues on the table. So
I'm gonna enthusiastically vote for Joe Biden in November. And
even when we look at the Middle Eastern issue, I
think that the Democratic Party has the correct stance on this.
(17:41):
We want some restraint into what Israel doing in the
Middle East. We don't want any more casualties than is necessary,
but we also do want to enthusiastically support Israel's right
to self defend against an attack from killing numerous and people.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
You know, Adita, I have to say, I don't mean
to judge based on your voice, but you sound somewhat
young to me, and I wonder if you are, in
fact what we would call young, And are you arguing
with your friends about this issue?
Speaker 8 (18:09):
Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm a young voter. It's going to
be my first presidential election. I'm twenty years along, and
I do notice among my peer groups my stance may
be a minority, maybe it's a silent majority, but there
are definitely a lot of people in my age that
don't agree with what I'm saying. But frankly, I think
that my position is really the only pragmatic choice that
(18:32):
will lead to progressive policies being adopted in the next
four years.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Well, thank you for that call. Ivet Simpson. What do
you think of that what we just heard from Adithia.
Speaker 13 (18:41):
Well, it's important to remember that no group is a monolith.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
Right.
Speaker 8 (18:44):
We have all these.
Speaker 13 (18:45):
Generalizations about what Jews think and what Palestinians think, and
what young people think, but the reality is is that
they are all very different, you know. And he's a
pragmatic person, so of course, being a pragmatist, he's going
to go with the solution that he thinks is best.
Some people are wanting to have a voice, and so
they're saying, I get the right to vote, I get
to right to choose, but I don't get to choose
the person that I like, and I don't get a
(19:07):
voice at the table of the person who's leading. So
our two party system does not give young people the
ability to say, Hey, Biden, I like you on this,
this and this, I wish you would do this, this
and this, and I think we have struggled as a
party for years and years and years of alienating these
voices and not giving them at least a chance having
a conversation. These young people are also anti oppression. They
(19:29):
were the ones that spoke out against anti Semitism, the
Tree of Life synagogue shooting. They actually believe in this stuff,
and so it's really important, I think to hear them.
I hope they all go and vote. I'm going to
be organizing them like I always do, to vote. But
they're not hearing their parents saying you vote because you're
supposed to vote. They want their vote to count. They
want to be heard, and they want to be a
part of the process, and I think our party needs
(19:51):
to figure out how to do that.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Let's go to Isaac, who's in Minneapolis.
Speaker 14 (19:57):
Isaac, go ahead, Yeah, I'm first my main point on
a humanitarian stance. I'm a Muslim, I'll say that, you know, disclaimer,
but another humanitarian stance and just personal stance. I can't
continue to support Biden because he is supporting what is
you know, what most people in the UN are calling
(20:20):
like a genocide, you know. And also, just to follow
up on the last caller, if you're looking at this
just in a US position in the in the in
the world, we're looking a lot weaker because we have
made all these Biden has had so many different times
where he's mentioned, you know, if if Israel doesn't do this,
(20:46):
then we're gonna do you know, We're gonna.
Speaker 10 (20:48):
Do X y Z.
Speaker 14 (20:50):
And we've had to walk back so many red lines
we had set, and it just fundamentally makes the US
look weaker that we're bowling down to in other countries,
you know, demands or something. And I just just in
terms of as a you know, as a as a
person who wants to see the US in a strong
(21:13):
place in the world, that makes us look weaker.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Who are you going to vote for, Isaac?
Speaker 14 (21:17):
I'm at the moment, I don't think I'm going to
vote for anyone. All the candidates, as you mentioned, have
a really strong dance in favor of what is really
going on right now, and I just can't live with
myself if I put if I vote for them. I
did vote for Biden. I was very enthusiastic about voting
(21:38):
for Biden. I was very happy about my vote, celebrated
it with everyone all my friends, and a lot of
my friends are regretting it because of what we've seen.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, Isaac, thank you very much for that.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Dev Amos I do want to give you an opportunity
to weigh in on something that Isaac brought up. And
I think we heard from another caller before the word genocide,
which obviously is something that's been thrown around a lot
in this conflict, but strongly protested by the Biden White
House and many others.
Speaker 12 (22:08):
I think because it's a legal term. Look, I've just
been teaching journalism here and my young journalists all want
to use that, and I said, you're twenty years old
and you're not a lawyer. You don't get to do that.
What is happening is bad enough, and so it doesn't
need that label. And we will find out from the
(22:28):
ICJ the court. It's their job to determine it. That's
how international humanitarian law works. If it's a public opinion,
then it is yours. But I think throwing it around
is not helpful.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Event I know you're an attorney yourself, right right. I
agree with that.
Speaker 13 (22:54):
I'm mean, I agree with what deb is saying. I
studied international human rights. It is a defined term. I
think it throws gas on the fire part in the analogy,
but it really does when we throw out these terms.
I don't know what it serves. I think at the
end of the day, though, we're all kind of wanting
some of the same stuff. I think if Biden had
(23:15):
really set I think the standard from the beginning, saying
this is not necessarily our war. This is a tough
call for us. We know who the enemy is and
it's Hamas. We have to do what's best both to
protect Jewish life and to protect Palestinian life. And really
framing because Biden has been really clear about where he
doesn't have power, he will say the Senate won't let
me do it. I can't do that executive order. But
(23:36):
in this context he's making promises. I agree with the caller,
and it's setting him up because people are expecting him
to do something when really he has very little control here.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Tolliver, I know some comments are coming in online so
many Sheila and Chicago Rights do. I deplore Biden's support
for israel I do. But by past indications, Trump's position
will be equally bad or worse as well. Trump's record
shows that he has little interest in the general well
being of ordinary Americans. His policies will favor the rich
and powerful, as did his earlier tax cuts. Melanie and
Minnesota are third. Minnesota says it is irresponsible to phrase
(24:09):
the discussion about the war in Israel and Gaza. Words
have power. It is Israel perpetuating a war on Palestine.
Please say what it is and stop the verbal gymnastic propaganda.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Let's go to Jake in Baltimore, Maryland. Hi, Jake, Welcome
to the Medal.
Speaker 11 (24:23):
Hi, thanks for having me on. First, I want to
say what an amazing program this is and what a
great platform you've created. Secondly, I was prompted by the
call screener to let you know why I was calling
in and who I would support in the presidential election.
I think Joe Biden's been very strong as a leader
(24:45):
in the world in the way he's handled the Israeli
Palestinian conflict. In this case, he was the first international
leader to meet with the kidnapping victims fan families after
October seventh, when Natanyahu himself would not even meet with him,
and I think he showed what a true state statesman
(25:09):
would be. And as I indicated to the culscreener earlier,
I think Joe Biden is practically catatonic, and so I
wouldn't have voted for him or supported him in this
next election, whereas I held my breath and voted for
held my nose and voted for Hillary Clinton and previously.
And I would say that regarding your other callers and
(25:33):
the people who wrote in regarding calling this a genocide,
I think it's difficult. It's a very challenging language to
deal with, and they should be infinitely more careful when
one sovereign nation is protecting its own sovereignty and borders.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, Jake, thank you very much for that call. Let
me let me squeeze another one in here. Lizzy is
in Madison, Wisconsin. Hi, Lizzie, is the war in the middle.
It's going to affect your vote this November.
Speaker 17 (26:02):
So I'm in my mid twenties and I'm very form absolute.
I've got all of my other friends who are also
red twenties. Very difficuty kimming for sure. I mean, I
whether I want to, I'm truly memberside it. I'm definitely
(26:22):
leaning towards not voting for Biden because I do think
it is absolutely a travesty what's going on. I think
that the people playing me that this is just is real,
defending themselves, are honestly a bit naive because this has been.
You've seen a rate of murder and violence of like
(26:42):
thirty Palestinians bed for every Israeli that was killed. I
think that's outrageous and absolutely obscene. And the fact that
my tax dollars are paying for that, it's just it's
it absolutely does not sit right with me. But on
the other hand, I do have a lot of friends
who are still trying to convince me that, you know,
(27:04):
given the alternative, what real choice is there? But I
don't know. I just the defense that oh is real,
you know, has the right to defend itself. Well, what
about Gable? What about the Palistinian people? Do they not
also have a right to not die? A thousand plus
(27:24):
stats in a few months.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
We've got it. Thank you, Thank you Lizzie for that.
Evett Simpson.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Definitely a lot of callers who are calling in saying,
you know, they supported Biden in the past and aren't
going to now what.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Needs to happen.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I mean, it seems like a big, pretty big problem
for the Democrats right now.
Speaker 13 (27:40):
Yeah, there's a lot of emotion around it, and I
get that, and you know, we need to bring it
back to the fact that there is you know, this
started with Hamas, the murder of Jewish people, the continued
hostage situation that exists there, and then of course the
death of tens of thousands of Palestinians. And I think
what has to happen is Joe Biden needs to get
(28:00):
really real, I think with our party, and I think
our party needs to come together. We have Jewish Americans
in our party, we have Palestinian Americans and our party
and really start to have conversations and engage with people
about what's really happening. The rhetoric is not helping. And
also making sure that he acknowledges as I said that
he is not at in Yahoo, he is not the
(28:21):
ruler of Israel. He has tried very much to have conversations,
he has tried very much to be a voice, but
he cannot stop him as he does not have that control.
So I think there is this expectation that he can
do a lot more than he has diplomacy, conversations, engagement
about what is possible and what is not. And also
(28:42):
I hate to continue to say this, but this is two.
It's a binary choice. He is the better alternative, and
we have to know that. What I worry about with
this war is that it's not happening here. It certainly
impacts us here, but it could be the existential threat
to our democracy if people don't show up and Trump
gets re elected.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Dev just briefly, how much power does Biden have right now?
I mean with net and Yahoo at this point, and
or with Hamas for that matter.
Speaker 12 (29:09):
He has the power of persuasion, he has ultimately the
power of weapons, and how much and can he turn
off the tap? But this is happening in an election year.
Let me also say that you know, there's no one
silver bullet to solve this, and he doesn't even have one,
(29:35):
and he is he is doing his best. There's the
second thing I think that's happening, and that is there
are opinions are shifting on this issue, and that will
take a while to play out.
Speaker 7 (29:50):
Well.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
We talked earlier about the intensity that protests taking place
on college campus is about this conflict in Tolliver. The
protests at Columbia are particularly deja vu Boman.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Yeah, listen to what activists Jerry Rubin had to say
nineteen sixty eight at Columbia during the protests over Vietnam.
Speaker 19 (30:04):
We're living in the middle of a beast Lyndon Johnson
is a common murder and he should be.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
Arrested for murder.
Speaker 19 (30:09):
Barren Old limits to descent, I asked my I think
the Peace Mooman should have the anger of a Vietnam
Vietnamese woman whose child was burned by napalm dropped by
American planes way.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
Up there in the sky. That's the anger.
Speaker 19 (30:23):
The Peace Mooman should reflect.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
More parallels on the Middle more parallels. So now we
will be right back with more of your calls on
the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're
asking you this hour, how might the war in the
Middle East affect your vote?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
You can call us at eight.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six
four three three five three. You can also reach out
to us and listen to the Middle dot com. I'm
joined by former NBR International correspondent Deborah Amos and Democratic
political strategist Yvette Simpson. And let's go right back to
the phones and Danny, who's in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Danny, go ahead, welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 20 (30:55):
Hey, how's it going, Glad?
Speaker 10 (30:57):
I got on.
Speaker 20 (30:58):
I'll get right to it. I'll be pretty direct I'm Jewish,
I'm Moroccan, and I think the conflict in Palestine, or
should I say the humanitarian disaster that's being inflicted on
the Palestinians by Israel is horrible and it's gut wrenching,
and I'm so upset that we can't reach any kind
(31:19):
of solution on this in the twenty first century. But unfortunately,
there's so much more on the line for our next selection,
from climate change to woman's rights, to my rights as
a brown person. So while I understand people don't like
President Biden, I'm an engineer. It's a pretty deterministic outcome
for me. There's not going to be a third party
candidate winning. And if you don't vote for Biden, then
(31:41):
that's another that's contributing to Donald Trump. And I shouldn't
have to say how horrible of a result that would
be if he got back into power.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Janny, thank you for that calling. That's Simpson. I imagine
you like what Danny had to say there, and he's
in a swing state.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
No less, I'm a lawyer.
Speaker 13 (31:58):
I love pragmatists, I love practical people. I'm also an
activist and an organizer and a strategist, and so I
see the value in all of it. I mean, I
think it's really important. You asked me before what Biden
should do. What we always do. We educate, we inform,
we organize, and we motivate people to show up, and
I think it's really important not to miss that step.
(32:18):
My real fear is that we've waited too late. So
we're months away from the election. Folks will start early
voting in no time, and we have not had the
chance to get the message right, to really engage people.
And every time I hear a young person it says
they're not going to vote, I think that's a voter
we need to be talking to. We need to make
sure that they are not only engaged by getting other
people to vote. I am very fearful of that, but
(32:40):
I like voters like this young man who are very practical,
because honestly, we need to let people know what's at
stake here. I mean, we need to let them know
that Trump being re elected is a threat not only
to our country but to our world.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
You know, it is a very tricky issue right now
for any politician to talk about without being shouted down.
I mean, every time I see a politician not showing
up at some public event. I'm like, I wonder if
they just don't want to have to face the protesters.
Right now, dan Amos, there is an election that's about
to happen in the United Kingdom.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
You're in Europe right now.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Is this is hot a political issue in all these
places that the politicians just don't want to engage with
people on the issue.
Speaker 12 (33:21):
Yes, it is as hot here. What's been interesting in
Germany is a recent poll that was published by Dristern,
which is a weekly magazine, shows sixty two percent of
Germans disapprove of the eight month campaign in Gaza. Now
today is the eight month anniversary. That was surprising for Germans.
(33:41):
But I think you're also seeing a shift in opinion
in the United States. It's generational. Let's remember that in
Vietnam the protests didn't immediately have a change across America.
That took some time. But I mean, I certainly can
see that the younger generation has very strong opinions. They
(34:05):
eventually will run for office, be policymakers, and that is
that shift is happening, and let us see. It may
not be evident in this election, but it certainly is
not over, not by a lawn shot.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
We've certainly heard from a number of young people here
on this program this hour, and I want to, by
the way, say, you know, if you're a Republican and
this is going to have an effect on your vote,
give us a call it eight four four to forur middle.
Let's go to Catherine, who's in Jackson, Wyoming. Hi, Catherine,
welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 16 (34:40):
Go ahead, Hello, Jeremy. I'd like to think I'm young.
I am in Wyoming, very red state, so unfortunately, I
don't think it'll really matter what my vote is. But
I have been writing to the President Biden for the
(35:01):
last six months on my disapproval of how he has
conducted the war, and so I just can't vote for
him based on my conscience because I feel like my
vote is casting my vote. I think about the children
that are that were burned by the bottoms the other day,
and the tens of thousands of innocent people who've died
(35:26):
in this war. As a proponent of peace, that's my
vote is about that. I've been to Palestine myself firsthand,
and I've seen illegal settlements there and the Israeli policies there,
and I've always questioned our unconditional support of Israel, and
I feel like it's really affecting our relationships abroad, particularly
(35:48):
with the Arab world, and has affected our our national security.
Speaker 9 (35:55):
Is to vote?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Are you just not going to vote for anybody?
Speaker 16 (35:59):
I don't feel like it. I'm going to continue to
write President Biden. I will and express that he's lost
my vote. He has. I voted for him a last
election that this war has and let it reflects he's
lost my vote.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, Catherine, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
If at Simpson, one thing I'm noticing is that a
lot of these people who say that they're not going
to vote for Biden are not saying that they're going
to vote for Trump.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
No.
Speaker 13 (36:27):
No, And that's the interesting thing about this conversation. I
was thinking about it as I thought about Mike Johnson's
inviting that and Yahoo to speak. Really, the Republicans have
the advantage the longer this war goes on, right Like,
if they can pull a few folks over to their side,
if they can get voters to stay home by creating
someone allowing us to go on to try to position
(36:49):
themselves as the supporters of Israel when we know the
anti anti anti sentimentism, the racism, the white nationalism that
they've supported, if they can just get a few you
look at two thousand, the margins are so tight eleven
thousand that many votes that Trump need the Secretary of
State to find him. In Georgia, we're talking about tight,
(37:10):
tight margins. And so the Republicans are in a powerful
position because every single person that called in here and
said they weren't voting, they're delivering a win for Republicans.
They don't have to do much. And so it's really important,
I think for Biden to remember from a political strategy
perspective that it's not just about what he does and
doesn't do. It's about the fact that the Republicans are
(37:31):
going to win no matter what. We've got to find
a way if you don't like what he did for
because you're pro Palestinian or pro what he did with
Israel because you're pro Israel either way, right like, we're
going to lose some people in the midst of that.
And I think it's really important for him to frame
that and be very careful about that because Republicans have
all to gain because they don't have any of these
(37:52):
coalitions at all. I mean, these are all overwhelmingly Democratic coalitions,
and every person that doesn't show up or that goes
to the other side, they win, we lose.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Let's go to Pranav who's in Saint Louis, Missouri. Pranav,
welcome to the Middle. Is the war in the Middle
is going to affect your vote this November?
Speaker 21 (38:12):
Yeah, thanks for having me on. My name is Pernov.
I'm from the University of Chicago, so I've seen firsthand
an encampment. But on the other hand, we have a
very strong Israelian Jewish population. Just to quickly answer the question,
this is my first time voting. I planned on voting
for Biden before the October seventh attacks which exacerbated the
(38:32):
conflicts in the Middle East. I still plan on voting
for Biden. And the reason why is because I kind
of put myself in hymshoot in his shoes. What you
see is, you know, you have a pack, which is
a very strong political action committee that has supported Biden
close to five million dollars. But on the other hand,
a lot of his supporters sided with Palestine, so now
we have to do kind of a tight rope act.
(38:55):
I meanwhile, on the other hand, many of Trump' supporters
are very pro Israel. But on the other hand, he's
very backed by Apak, and so I do put myself
in Biden's too. I think it's the more pragmatic choice because,
with all due respect, I don't think that voting third
party or not voting is going to change the outcome
of the election. So it's probably better to go with
(39:15):
the candidate who I agree with more. A lot of
people who have talked to on campus, you know, they
try to replicate or parallel the camp David at Cords
or you on Resolution two forty two, and I simply
think that that's working backwards. So I think we just
have to go with the best candidate forward. In my opinion,
that's Biden.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Panav thank you for calling in and Debora Amos. It's
always impressive how well versed in these issues our listeners are.
But still I come back to the question of you know,
when we get to November, with abortion and with democracy
and with so many other issues going on, is this
(39:55):
going to be the thing that when you get into
that voting booth, you say, I have to make my
choice based on what's going on in Gaza.
Speaker 12 (40:04):
You know, as I listened to these calls informed. Yes,
but I certainly haven't heard anybody say, Okay, this is
where Biden stands and this is where Trump stands. So
they're angry, and which is very understandable. They're outraged by
what they see. We live in a world where everybody
sees everything. But I haven't heard one person make the
(40:27):
comparison of policy abortion. People know that has been well
discussed in the media. I think you could wake up
anybody at three o'clock in the morning and ask them
who stands where, and you would get a coach in answer.
I'm not sure if you would. On Israel Palestine, I
don't I'm not sure if people have thought about Okay,
(40:48):
if I don't vote or I vote for Trump, then
what do I get.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Let's go to Phyllis, who's in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. Hi, Phyllis,
go ahead, Hi.
Speaker 9 (40:58):
Thank you so very much for offering me to give
my opinion. I personally do not particularly care for the
way that the current administration is handling the situation with
Gaza with the Israelis. However, even though that is so,
(41:19):
I think we have bigger fish to fry here in
the United States about what will happen to our democracy,
What will happen to women's rights, What will happen with
the Supreme Court and the justice system if we shift
to somebody else. And I think we can always have
(41:41):
a shot at straightening up the Israeli conflict later if
democracy prevails. And I'm afraid that given another party, given
the Republican Party, that just may not happen.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Phillis, thank you very much for that calling that Simpson,
This is the kind of voter probably that President Biden
and his team would like to hear from them.
Speaker 12 (42:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 13 (42:06):
Well, elections are always on the margins. Every election is
decided by who doesn't show up. I always say, not
who shows up. And I think, to Deb's point, those
voters who are going to vote on horror issues make
that comparison, they're the meat and potatoes. But the margins
is what I worry about when I think about knocking
on doors across this entire country in twenty twenty, it
(42:27):
was about pulling those few folks who wanted to stay home,
so much easier to stay home, or who didn't want
to choose the lesser that they thought of two evils.
Although I would say Biden is an angel compared to
the alternative. But it is our effort is to get
people out, and we do have the disadvantage as I
said before, because Republicans do fall in line. They show up,
(42:47):
they vote, they're enthusiastic, they don't care what their leaders do.
They're about getting retaining power. They're going to show up.
And then we have to do the work of making
sure that we get our folks out and I think
a huge education campaign around this war and what it
is and what it's not. The ironic thing is that
our coalitions and the party actually agree. I mean, when
(43:09):
you talk to progressives about what happened with Hamas and
the way that they infiltrated Jewish folks, they're like, that's wrong.
They don't think that was right at all. They also
don't like seeing Palestine death. My fear is every single
day we see more deaths. Every single day we see
hostage is not being released. Every single day hostages are
found dead. This thing is going to get more and
(43:30):
more heat. And if Biden is in the center, he's
going to get it coming and going. I think him
stepping out of the center and saying, hey, you know,
this is not the most important issue we have all
these other issues that we need you to think about.
Is the play him continuing to bring it back to
this with the speech last week, and you know, he
made a bunch of we're gonna end this war and
Hamas is going to go packing, and those are prompt
(43:53):
We had a long war in the Middle East ourselves,
and we know that it's not easy to displace terrorists.
It is not an easy thing to negotiate with them
or get them to do what you want them to do.
It is also not easy to get a sovereign to
do what you tell them to do, especially someone as
strong as Benjamin h Yeah, so I think he just
needs to reset on that.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
I'm gonna squeeze one more call in here. Rashid is
an irving Texas. Hi, Rashid, go ahead, welcome to.
Speaker 5 (44:17):
The Middle Hi, thank you. And as fons the war
in Gaza. It won't affect my vote. And the reason
for that is because both candidates, they've occupied the Oval office,
their character has already been shown. And you know, I
remember being in college during the Trump presidency, and you know,
(44:38):
I was in law school, you know, during the Biden presidency,
and you know, we still felt the aftermaths of the
Trump presidency, like for example, they like the Federal Society
at my school, they had the man who argued Dabbs
Scott G. Stewart, you know, doing a victory tour over
(45:00):
rolling back reproductive rights, and that really stuck, you know,
to my core. And you know, I think in this election,
you know, there is other things to worry about, as
have already been said, besides the war in Gaza, and
I know that I think that Biden has the better
(45:22):
character between the two.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Rashid, thank you for that, dev Amos.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
One question I have is, as you're looking at this
from Europe right now, is the rest of the world
relying on the United States to solve this problem because
as we've heard, Netanyahu's very powerful obviously hamas is also
is in control of this situation as well. Is the
United States being seen as the power that can bring
a cease fire?
Speaker 12 (45:50):
Yes and no, Yes, because there is some power there,
but no what you see. For example, today Spain announced
that it was joining South Africa in the charge of
genocide against Israel at the International Court. States here in
(46:13):
Europe have decided to pull back on arm sales to
Israel seventeen nations join Biden's call for a ceasefire. I mean,
everybody's got domestic politics on this too. This issue is
as hot in Europe as it is in the United States,
so politicians can't be seen to be doing nothing. I'm
(46:36):
very curious though, what will be the reaction in the US,
especially these young voters when the Israeli Prime minister invited
by Republicans to speak in Congress. I will be watching
that closely to see are their protests.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
What about in the Congress ef that, Do you think
that we're going to see people members walk out?
Speaker 13 (46:58):
I think so, I think so, I think, But I
do think that it's tricky, right, Like the more you
alienate and make Netanyahu an enemy, the more the Republicans win,
Like he gets stronger the more you make him the enemy.
And so I'm curious about you know, Democrats are split
on this issue on the vote of whether he should
even be allowed to speak, and so it'll be interesting
to see whether or not they give him the power
(47:21):
that he desires. Right, as long as he's the man
in the middle, as long as he's the man who
then he gets more alienated, then he gets stronger, particularly
with Jewish Americans who see him as synonymous with Israel
and the key to solving this war. Which I know
that there are a lot of folks who don't like
Netan Yahoo, but they also see him in a time
of war is the one who can get them out
(47:41):
of this. So I'd be very very careful as Democrats
about how we react here from a political strategy perspective,
because Republicans are doing this because they want Democrats to
take the bait on this.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Well, what a fascinating hour, so many incredible calls, and
of course I want to thank my guest, former MPR
International course on a Debora Amus early morning in Berlin.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Thank you very.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Much, thank you for having me and Ivette Simpson, a
democratic political strategist and former executive director of Democracy for America.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Ivett great to have you on as well.
Speaker 13 (48:13):
Always a good time with you, Jeremy, thanks for having
me and Toliver.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
What is on tap for next week?
Speaker 3 (48:18):
We'll be asking how do we take the politics out
of climate change. We'll be joined by former EPA administrator
Gina McCarthy and meteorologist Ryan Hanrahan. You can join the
conversation by calling eight four four four Middle or going
to listen to the Middle dot com and.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
While you're there, you can sign up for our weekly newsletter.
The Middle is brought to you by Long Nook Media,
produced distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and
produced by Joeann Jennings, Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, and John Barth.
Our intern is Anika Deshler. Our technical director this week
is Steve mork. Our theme music was composed by Andrew Hagen.
Apparently all of our listeners are between eighteen and twenty
(48:51):
five years old, so that's great. Thanks also to Nashville
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The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
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building connections between donors.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
And news organizations.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
More information on how you can support the Middle at
Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
I'm Jeremy Hobson, joined as always by our house DJ
Tolliver and Tolliver. Last week we shifted topics at the
last minute because of the Trump verdicts that this week
we're bringing the very important topic that had to be bumped.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Yeah, and I think this is like the story of
the years. I'm really glad we could circle back to it.
Speaker 4 (00:37):
You know.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Yeah, it certainly has the potential to grow into a
much bigger conflict and has really seen an emotional response
here in the United States. Of course, we're talking about
the war in the Middle East, which is a war
that the US is involved in but is not directly
fighting in. As we remember, it started with the brutal
Hamas attack on Israel on October seventh. Israel's response has
led to devastation in Gaza and tens of thousands of deaths.
(01:01):
So our question to you this hour, how might the
war in the Middle East affect your vote.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Tolliver, what is the number of people to call.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
In It's eight four four four Middle that's eight four
four four six four it three three five three or
write to us at Listen to the middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
And before we introduce our panel, last week, we asked
you about your thoughts on the guilty verdict in the
Trump trial.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Here is what some of you had to say.
Speaker 5 (01:21):
This is James Colin from red wing Minnesota.
Speaker 6 (01:25):
I'm calling for Murphy, North Carolina. My name is Karen Jordan.
Speaker 7 (01:29):
My my name is Chris bos Can.
Speaker 8 (01:30):
Call from beautiful Alpadena, California.
Speaker 6 (01:33):
HI. This is Deborah and I live in Augusta, Georgia.
Speaker 9 (01:36):
I was pleased to hear the verdict today just because
no one should be above the law in this country.
Speaker 10 (01:43):
I am not happy about the verdict. All those jurors
should be questioned.
Speaker 6 (01:49):
I'm a Republican and I believe in law and order,
and I think law and order were done today. This
is shameful that's happening in our government. But maybe it
teaches us a lesson be careful who you vote for.
Speaker 7 (02:02):
I don't think that is criminal.
Speaker 11 (02:05):
Conviction is really a loss at all.
Speaker 8 (02:07):
This is not the case that's going to energize young people.
That is going to mean either the victory or defeat
of the Democratic Party in November is getting young people
eighteen to twenty.
Speaker 10 (02:17):
Five out to vote.
Speaker 9 (02:19):
This case, it ain't gonna do it well.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Thanks to everyone who called in. So now to our
topic this hour, the war in Israel and Gaza. Since
the Hamas attack and Israel's response, the Biden administration has
tried for a delicate balancing act, standing by the US
ally Israel while calling for more humanitarian aid to Gaza
and trying to avoid a wider war.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
In the region.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Needless to say, not everyone is happy with that balance,
especially on the left and at university campuses. That was
at Columbia University. Worth noting that President Biden has now
called for a ceasefire himself off, while former President Trump
(03:01):
has said that Israel needs to quote finish the war fast.
So our question for the hour, how might the war
in the Middle East affect your vote?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Again?
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Our number is eight four four four six four three
three five three. I don't really need to give it
out again, Tolliver, because the lines are already full on
this conversation I just want to ask that we have
a civil conversation even when we disagree. That's what the
show is all about. So let's meet our panel. Deborah Amos,
longtime international correspondent formerly with NPR, now professor at Princeton,
joining us from Berlin. Deb great to have you with
(03:29):
us again.
Speaker 12 (03:30):
Hi, good morning from me.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Good good morning.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And democratic political strategist Yvette Simpson joins us from Cincinnati.
She's the former executive director of Democracy for America and
current host of the Power of Why podcast.
Speaker 2 (03:42):
Vett Welcome to.
Speaker 13 (03:43):
The middle Thanks for having me, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Well, and before we get to the phones, people don't
tend to vote on foreign policy issues, but we also
don't tend to see protests like we have with this war.
Do you each see this as an issue that could
have a meaningful impact on the US election?
Speaker 2 (04:00):
And I'll start with you Deb in Berlin.
Speaker 12 (04:03):
It seems so. I mean, who knows what people will
do when they walk into the voting booth, because there
are two starkly different choices, and also starkly different choices
about how a president, whoever wins, will deal with them
at least, but this one has polarized in ways that. Look,
(04:25):
I'm a long time at least correspondent. I have never
seen anything like this. It's the same in Europe. I'm
in Berlin. There have been protests here. It's just extraordinary
how connected people are with this issue.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Why is that, by the way, why do you think
that is that you've never seen anything like this, but
it's happening now because this conflict has been going on
for a very long time.
Speaker 12 (04:49):
I think there's a couple of things to think about.
One the Black Lives Matter protests in twenty one twenty two,
it was called the American antifada because I think black
Americans saw the Palestinian struggle as something akin to theirs.
I think the latest protests. I just brought a substack
(05:13):
about this and talked to somebody at Human Rights Watch
who said, look, this is such a culmination of authoritarianism,
of Brexit, of COVID, of climate change, and young people
are disgusted with the world that they are inheriting, and
so the protests are about anger about what they will
(05:39):
what we are going to leave them. And I think
that that is an interesting way to look at it.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
What about you, do you see this as an issue
that is going to have a meaningful impact on the
election this fall.
Speaker 14 (05:52):
I think so.
Speaker 13 (05:53):
And here's why. So you've got several coalitions that the
Democrats need to win and battled in this right. Jewish
people are a huge part of our voting coalition. We
would have won Pennsylvania without the strong outpouring of Jewish support.
You've got the Muslim coalition that we built up to
win Michigan.
Speaker 5 (06:10):
You've got young.
Speaker 13 (06:11):
People who saved our hides all across the country. You've
got African Americans who saved us in Georgia. These are
all key states, not just for the presidential but for
Senate races too, and those margins were really thin. And
even if people don't go into the polling location thinking
about it, think about the young people and all of
the progressives and all of these people that we need
to organize right now. The election starts now. So we
(06:34):
need them volunteering, we need them knocking on doors, we
need them enthusiastic because, as we know, Democrats fall in love,
but Republicans will fall in line, and so we need
everybody in love with the president. And if they're not,
then they disengage. And we need full engagement in this election.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
And I should just say to our listeners that one
of the reasons we wanted to have you on as
a Democratic strategist is because most of the people who
are really angry about this are on the left and
this country, so we wanted to make sure that we
had someone like you, who really understands so much about
the Democratic Party to help us talk as we hear
from our listeners who are calling in. I do want
to say though, that you know, when you look broadly
(07:12):
at the candidates. President Biden, as we said, has recently
called for a ceasefire. Former President Trump has said Israel
should get the war over with quickly, although he reportedly
told donors at a closed door meeting that he would
quote crush Palestinian protesters in this country. And then there
is the independent candidate, Robert F. Kennedy Junior, who has said, quote,
(07:33):
Israel is doing more right now to protect human life
and has done more over the past sixteen years to
avoid this outcome than we would expect of any nation
in the world. So pretty favorable to Israel with him
as well. Deborah Amos, do you see a big difference
between the candidates on the issues happening in the Middle East.
Speaker 12 (07:51):
Oh yeah, Look, let's just look at Nikki Haley's visit
to Israel where she wrote on a bomb finish them.
Is she talking about how US? Is she talking about
the Palestinians? That is not clear. And I think there
is a big difference. And all of those activists who
(08:12):
aren't falling in love, maybe the right strategy is falling
in line, because if that is what they're concerned about,
they really don't have a place to go. I've been
an American for a long time and I've learned to
puld my nose on a number of occasions that's often
(08:35):
what we get. So yeah, I think that there is
a stark difference.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Let's go to the phones and Jane, who's in Egan, Minnesota. Jane,
welcome to the Middle Go ahead. Is the situation in
the Middle East going to affect your vote?
Speaker 2 (08:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 7 (08:53):
So I am eighteen years old and it's gonna be
my first election that I can vote in. And I
grew up there very political and looked forward to my
first vote, like counting down the years.
Speaker 4 (09:06):
It felt like because I was so excited, and I
felt like that joy was taken away because there is
no there is no one that can align with my values.
Speaker 15 (09:18):
I am willing.
Speaker 16 (09:19):
To accept the fact that.
Speaker 7 (09:23):
There that, you know, after the primaries and all that stuff,
but there isn't always going to be a person that
you completely and one hundred percent agree with that are
gonna win better better the too.
Speaker 8 (09:33):
You know, most.
Speaker 15 (09:36):
I as a call as someone who's vote who's been
protesting in college campus and on my college at my
college campus, I cannot vote for Biden.
Speaker 7 (09:48):
Who is something who is someone who.
Speaker 16 (09:50):
You know I would have voted for.
Speaker 7 (09:52):
But this is not something I can bite my tongue at.
This is not something that is willing that I'm willing
to just accept that that isn't. I cannot vote for Biden.
And I, you know, for a long time, was under
the belief that, you know, you don't vote for the
two major people, then you're throwing your vote away, and
you know, I think there's some truth to that, But
(10:13):
I also think that the country doesn't realize that every year,
new voters are getting added to the population of voters.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Right, So so sorry, Jane, I don't need to interrupt,
but just just briefly, are you going to vote for
a third party candidate?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Are you're not going to vote. What's your plan?
Speaker 10 (10:26):
I plan on.
Speaker 15 (10:27):
Voting for a third party.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
I don't believe.
Speaker 17 (10:29):
Oh my god, I'm getting pulled over.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Be careful, be careful, Jane's first. Sorry, Sorry, oh my god.
Hope everything is okay there. Don't get pulled over for
calling into the middle.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
It's not worth it. Vett, though, what do you think
about what Jane had to say there?
Speaker 13 (10:44):
You know, I think we know that young people are
the engine of change in our country, right, go back
to Vietnam War, go back to every the civil rights movement.
Young people are powering the future. And I don't agree
that we should have young people voting third party. I
think that they should all vote for the candidate that
(11:06):
is the best candidate who can win. But also democracy
is about making sure that you are earning a vote.
And so these young people who have been living in
a state of war since they were born. Remember these
are the nine to eleven kids who lived through Iraq,
through Afghanistan. They are strongly anti war, they are strongly
(11:26):
pro diplomacy, and so we need to make sure that
we are listening to them and engaging them.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Well, Tolliver, As we said earlier, protests over this conflict
have popped up at college campuses all over the country.
Speaker 2 (11:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
You know, a lot of people have drawn comparisons to
the protest movement against the Vietnam War. Here's President Nixon's
thoughts on the protests after the US invasion of Cambodia
in nineteen seventy.
Speaker 18 (11:47):
Those who protest want peace, they want to reduce American casualties,
and they want our boys brought home. I made the decision, however,
for the very reasons that they are protesting. And as
far as affecting my decision is concerned their protests, I
am concerned about. I am concerned because I know how
(12:08):
deeply they feel. But I know that what I have
done will accomplish the goals that they want.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Wow, so interesting to hear that now, just I mean,
there's so many comparisons to things Tolliver that have happened
in the past.
Speaker 19 (12:21):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:22):
Yeah, we try to point them out on this show.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
By the way, one of the goals that we have
is to get our podcast rated highly, and so if
you can do that for us, that would be wonderful.
Wherever you listen to podcasts, write a review, and also
you can give to the middle in a tax deductible
way at listen to them Middle dot com. We'll be
right back with more of your calls. This is the Middle.
I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning, in the Middle
(12:46):
is a national call in show. We're focused on elevating
voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically, or maybe
you just want to meet in the middle. This hour,
we're asking you how might the war in the Middle
East affect your vote? Tolliver, what is the number for
people to call in safely not driving safely?
Speaker 3 (13:03):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us a Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
I'm joined by former NPR International correspondent Debor Amos and
Democratic political strategist Yvette Simpson. And let's go right back
to the phones. And Harry, who is in Missouri City, Texas. Harry,
welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 10 (13:24):
Go ahead, Yes, my thank on. This is Brian. Vote
has been affected. I didn't vote for Joe Biden last
time for reasons winning Senator bidener A five of things
I disagree with I won't vote for him or Donald Trump.
I am voting for a third party candidate. And these
people that we call the Palestinians, like Gooldemeier said, there
(13:46):
arnold Palestinians. I use the ancient name. I use Palaschet
or Judea Palacehet is what comet? What's the anxious?
Speaker 15 (13:53):
Uh?
Speaker 10 (13:54):
What was called Egypt before? What was called Egypt was
cobt so those names I used.
Speaker 6 (14:00):
It.
Speaker 10 (14:01):
A bunch of people got killed today with this bomb
that they said that it was the US bomb and
uh a few weeks ago and that well that he
got killed, that was the US bomb. And I just
can't support Joe Biden his genocide war with Satan Yahu
and the right wing Sietist that yet he supports Harry.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Thank you, Harry, thank you for that, Thank you for
that call. Let me let me go to deb Amos
with the question. You know, Harry brings up some of
the recent incidents that have happened. It does seem like
just about every week there's a big incident in the
region that that occurs a lot of people, innocent people killed.
And one of the things that's very interesting here is
what are the incentives for either side in the conflict
(14:45):
Hamas and Israel to actually end this war because uh
they you know, for him, as I've read that this
is the thing that has made Israel and international pariah
more than anything they could have imagined. And for Israel,
there are questions of what net and Yahoo would be
immediately kicked.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Out of power if the war ended.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
So deb amos, what are the things that are going
on in the region that may be keeping this going
on longer than, of course the United States would like.
Speaker 12 (15:10):
So at the moment, there is a ceasefire proposal that
Joe Biden, President Biden unveiled, but in fact it is
an Israeli proposal, and almost immediately, you know, the Israeli
Prime Minister began to walk back from it. He is
(15:32):
under pressure from his extreme right wing who say that
they will leave his government if he ends the war.
And he's also under pressure from members of his war
cabinet who say they will leave his government if he
doesn't come up with a day after plan. Now, there
are negotiators in Egypt that is still going on. But
(15:54):
here's the problem, and it's very stark. Netanyahu doesn't want
to end the war, he says, because it could trigger
an election. He could lose his job. Even President Biden.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
Mentioned that this week.
Speaker 12 (16:09):
Sinoar, the head of Hamas, who is in a tunnel underground,
only wants one thing, and that is a guarantee that
the war will end. And so far Israel has not
given that assurance, and so that's where the talks stand.
The last thing I read is that Hamas wants a
(16:30):
written guarantee that the war will end. I'm not sure
if they will get it. This may be the last chance.
The families of the hostages are apoplectic about what is happening.
It's interesting who supports the ceasefire. The ultra religious, the
Orthodox came out today and they said that they do
(16:51):
support a ceasefire. But whether that makes any difference in
Yahoo's calculations, we will have to see. But I Thanksah.
In one news report a twenty five chance of a ceasfire,
so we may not move that dial any further.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Let's go to Aditha, who is in Longmont, Colorado.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Welcome to the Middle go ahead, Hey.
Speaker 8 (17:16):
Thanks for having me on.
Speaker 6 (17:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (17:18):
I think that the war in the Middle East is
an important issue, but I don't think it's the be all,
end all issue, And I think it's very naive in
twenty twenty four to focus on one particular issue when
there's a flew of political issues on the table. So
I'm gonna enthusiastically vote for Joe Biden in November. And
even when we look at the Middle Eastern issue, I
think that the Democratic Party has the correct stance on this.
(17:41):
We want some restraint into what Israel doing in the
Middle East. We don't want any more casualties than is necessary,
but we also do want to enthusiastically support Israel's right
to self defend against an attack from killing numerous and people.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
You know, Adita, I have to say, I don't mean
to judge based on your voice, but you sound somewhat
young to me, and I wonder if you are, in
fact what we would call young, And are you arguing
with your friends about this issue?
Speaker 8 (18:09):
Yeah, I'm yeah, I'm a young voter. It's going to
be my first presidential election. I'm twenty years along, and
I do notice among my peer groups my stance may
be a minority, maybe it's a silent majority, but there
are definitely a lot of people in my age that
don't agree with what I'm saying. But frankly, I think
that my position is really the only pragmatic choice that
(18:32):
will lead to progressive policies being adopted in the next
four years.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Well, thank you for that call. Ivet Simpson. What do
you think of that what we just heard from Adithia.
Speaker 13 (18:41):
Well, it's important to remember that no group is a monolith.
Speaker 7 (18:44):
Right.
Speaker 8 (18:44):
We have all these.
Speaker 13 (18:45):
Generalizations about what Jews think and what Palestinians think, and
what young people think, but the reality is is that
they are all very different, you know. And he's a
pragmatic person, so of course, being a pragmatist, he's going
to go with the solution that he thinks is best.
Some people are wanting to have a voice, and so
they're saying, I get the right to vote, I get
to right to choose, but I don't get to choose
the person that I like, and I don't get a
(19:07):
voice at the table of the person who's leading. So
our two party system does not give young people the
ability to say, Hey, Biden, I like you on this,
this and this, I wish you would do this, this
and this, and I think we have struggled as a
party for years and years and years of alienating these
voices and not giving them at least a chance having
a conversation. These young people are also anti oppression. They
(19:29):
were the ones that spoke out against anti Semitism, the
Tree of Life synagogue shooting. They actually believe in this stuff,
and so it's really important, I think to hear them.
I hope they all go and vote. I'm going to
be organizing them like I always do, to vote. But
they're not hearing their parents saying you vote because you're
supposed to vote. They want their vote to count. They
want to be heard, and they want to be a
part of the process, and I think our party needs
(19:51):
to figure out how to do that.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Let's go to Isaac, who's in Minneapolis.
Speaker 14 (19:57):
Isaac, go ahead, Yeah, I'm first my main point on
a humanitarian stance. I'm a Muslim, I'll say that, you know, disclaimer,
but another humanitarian stance and just personal stance. I can't
continue to support Biden because he is supporting what is
you know, what most people in the UN are calling
(20:20):
like a genocide, you know. And also, just to follow
up on the last caller, if you're looking at this
just in a US position in the in the in
the world, we're looking a lot weaker because we have
made all these Biden has had so many different times
where he's mentioned, you know, if if Israel doesn't do this,
(20:46):
then we're gonna do you know, We're gonna.
Speaker 10 (20:48):
Do X y Z.
Speaker 14 (20:50):
And we've had to walk back so many red lines
we had set, and it just fundamentally makes the US
look weaker that we're bowling down to in other countries,
you know, demands or something. And I just just in
terms of as a you know, as a as a
person who wants to see the US in a strong
(21:13):
place in the world, that makes us look weaker.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Who are you going to vote for, Isaac?
Speaker 14 (21:17):
I'm at the moment, I don't think I'm going to
vote for anyone. All the candidates, as you mentioned, have
a really strong dance in favor of what is really
going on right now, and I just can't live with
myself if I put if I vote for them. I
did vote for Biden. I was very enthusiastic about voting
(21:38):
for Biden. I was very happy about my vote, celebrated
it with everyone all my friends, and a lot of
my friends are regretting it because of what we've seen.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Yeah, Isaac, thank you very much for that.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Dev Amos I do want to give you an opportunity
to weigh in on something that Isaac brought up. And
I think we heard from another caller before the word genocide,
which obviously is something that's been thrown around a lot
in this conflict, but strongly protested by the Biden White
House and many others.
Speaker 12 (22:08):
I think because it's a legal term. Look, I've just
been teaching journalism here and my young journalists all want
to use that, and I said, you're twenty years old
and you're not a lawyer. You don't get to do that.
What is happening is bad enough, and so it doesn't
need that label. And we will find out from the
(22:28):
ICJ the court. It's their job to determine it. That's
how international humanitarian law works. If it's a public opinion,
then it is yours. But I think throwing it around
is not helpful.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Event I know you're an attorney yourself, right right. I
agree with that.
Speaker 13 (22:54):
I'm mean, I agree with what deb is saying. I
studied international human rights. It is a defined term. I
think it throws gas on the fire part in the analogy,
but it really does when we throw out these terms.
I don't know what it serves. I think at the
end of the day, though, we're all kind of wanting
some of the same stuff. I think if Biden had
(23:15):
really set I think the standard from the beginning, saying
this is not necessarily our war. This is a tough
call for us. We know who the enemy is and
it's Hamas. We have to do what's best both to
protect Jewish life and to protect Palestinian life. And really
framing because Biden has been really clear about where he
doesn't have power, he will say the Senate won't let
me do it. I can't do that executive order. But
(23:36):
in this context he's making promises. I agree with the caller,
and it's setting him up because people are expecting him
to do something when really he has very little control here.
Speaker 3 (23:47):
Tolliver, I know some comments are coming in online so
many Sheila and Chicago Rights do. I deplore Biden's support
for israel I do. But by past indications, Trump's position
will be equally bad or worse as well. Trump's record
shows that he has little interest in the general well
being of ordinary Americans. His policies will favor the rich
and powerful, as did his earlier tax cuts. Melanie and
Minnesota are third. Minnesota says it is irresponsible to phrase
(24:09):
the discussion about the war in Israel and Gaza. Words
have power. It is Israel perpetuating a war on Palestine.
Please say what it is and stop the verbal gymnastic propaganda.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Let's go to Jake in Baltimore, Maryland. Hi, Jake, Welcome
to the Medal.
Speaker 11 (24:23):
Hi, thanks for having me on. First, I want to
say what an amazing program this is and what a
great platform you've created. Secondly, I was prompted by the
call screener to let you know why I was calling
in and who I would support in the presidential election.
I think Joe Biden's been very strong as a leader
(24:45):
in the world in the way he's handled the Israeli
Palestinian conflict. In this case, he was the first international
leader to meet with the kidnapping victims fan families after
October seventh, when Natanyahu himself would not even meet with him,
and I think he showed what a true state statesman
(25:09):
would be. And as I indicated to the culscreener earlier,
I think Joe Biden is practically catatonic, and so I
wouldn't have voted for him or supported him in this
next election, whereas I held my breath and voted for
held my nose and voted for Hillary Clinton and previously.
And I would say that regarding your other callers and
(25:33):
the people who wrote in regarding calling this a genocide,
I think it's difficult. It's a very challenging language to
deal with, and they should be infinitely more careful when
one sovereign nation is protecting its own sovereignty and borders.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
Yeah, Jake, thank you very much for that call. Let
me let me squeeze another one in here. Lizzy is
in Madison, Wisconsin. Hi, Lizzie, is the war in the middle.
It's going to affect your vote this November.
Speaker 17 (26:02):
So I'm in my mid twenties and I'm very form absolute.
I've got all of my other friends who are also
red twenties. Very difficuty kimming for sure. I mean, I
whether I want to, I'm truly memberside it. I'm definitely
(26:22):
leaning towards not voting for Biden because I do think
it is absolutely a travesty what's going on. I think
that the people playing me that this is just is real,
defending themselves, are honestly a bit naive because this has been.
You've seen a rate of murder and violence of like
(26:42):
thirty Palestinians bed for every Israeli that was killed. I
think that's outrageous and absolutely obscene. And the fact that
my tax dollars are paying for that, it's just it's
it absolutely does not sit right with me. But on
the other hand, I do have a lot of friends
who are still trying to convince me that, you know,
(27:04):
given the alternative, what real choice is there? But I
don't know. I just the defense that oh is real,
you know, has the right to defend itself. Well, what
about Gable? What about the Palistinian people? Do they not
also have a right to not die? A thousand plus
(27:24):
stats in a few months.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
We've got it. Thank you, Thank you Lizzie for that.
Evett Simpson.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
Definitely a lot of callers who are calling in saying,
you know, they supported Biden in the past and aren't
going to now what.
Speaker 2 (27:36):
Needs to happen.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I mean, it seems like a big, pretty big problem
for the Democrats right now.
Speaker 13 (27:40):
Yeah, there's a lot of emotion around it, and I
get that, and you know, we need to bring it
back to the fact that there is you know, this
started with Hamas, the murder of Jewish people, the continued
hostage situation that exists there, and then of course the
death of tens of thousands of Palestinians. And I think
what has to happen is Joe Biden needs to get
(28:00):
really real, I think with our party, and I think
our party needs to come together. We have Jewish Americans
in our party, we have Palestinian Americans and our party
and really start to have conversations and engage with people
about what's really happening. The rhetoric is not helping. And
also making sure that he acknowledges as I said that
he is not at in Yahoo, he is not the
(28:21):
ruler of Israel. He has tried very much to have conversations,
he has tried very much to be a voice, but
he cannot stop him as he does not have that control.
So I think there is this expectation that he can
do a lot more than he has diplomacy, conversations, engagement
about what is possible and what is not. And also
(28:42):
I hate to continue to say this, but this is two.
It's a binary choice. He is the better alternative, and
we have to know that. What I worry about with
this war is that it's not happening here. It certainly
impacts us here, but it could be the existential threat
to our democracy if people don't show up and Trump
gets re elected.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Dev just briefly, how much power does Biden have right now?
I mean with net and Yahoo at this point, and
or with Hamas for that matter.
Speaker 12 (29:09):
He has the power of persuasion, he has ultimately the
power of weapons, and how much and can he turn
off the tap? But this is happening in an election year.
Let me also say that you know, there's no one
silver bullet to solve this, and he doesn't even have one,
(29:35):
and he is he is doing his best. There's the
second thing I think that's happening, and that is there
are opinions are shifting on this issue, and that will
take a while to play out.
Speaker 7 (29:50):
Well.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
We talked earlier about the intensity that protests taking place
on college campus is about this conflict in Tolliver. The
protests at Columbia are particularly deja vu Boman.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
Yeah, listen to what activists Jerry Rubin had to say
nineteen sixty eight at Columbia during the protests over Vietnam.
Speaker 19 (30:04):
We're living in the middle of a beast Lyndon Johnson
is a common murder and he should be.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
Arrested for murder.
Speaker 19 (30:09):
Barren Old limits to descent, I asked my I think
the Peace Mooman should have the anger of a Vietnam
Vietnamese woman whose child was burned by napalm dropped by
American planes way.
Speaker 5 (30:20):
Up there in the sky. That's the anger.
Speaker 19 (30:23):
The Peace Mooman should reflect.
Speaker 1 (30:25):
More parallels on the Middle more parallels. So now we
will be right back with more of your calls on
the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. We're
asking you this hour, how might the war in the
Middle East affect your vote?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
You can call us at eight.
Speaker 1 (30:37):
Four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six
four three three five three. You can also reach out
to us and listen to the Middle dot com. I'm
joined by former NBR International correspondent Deborah Amos and Democratic
political strategist Yvette Simpson. And let's go right back to
the phones and Danny, who's in Las Vegas, Nevada.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
Danny, go ahead, welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 20 (30:55):
Hey, how's it going, Glad?
Speaker 10 (30:57):
I got on.
Speaker 20 (30:58):
I'll get right to it. I'll be pretty direct I'm Jewish,
I'm Moroccan, and I think the conflict in Palestine, or
should I say the humanitarian disaster that's being inflicted on
the Palestinians by Israel is horrible and it's gut wrenching,
and I'm so upset that we can't reach any kind
(31:19):
of solution on this in the twenty first century. But unfortunately,
there's so much more on the line for our next selection,
from climate change to woman's rights, to my rights as
a brown person. So while I understand people don't like
President Biden, I'm an engineer. It's a pretty deterministic outcome
for me. There's not going to be a third party
candidate winning. And if you don't vote for Biden, then
(31:41):
that's another that's contributing to Donald Trump. And I shouldn't
have to say how horrible of a result that would
be if he got back into power.
Speaker 1 (31:50):
Janny, thank you for that calling. That's Simpson. I imagine
you like what Danny had to say there, and he's
in a swing state.
Speaker 2 (31:56):
No less, I'm a lawyer.
Speaker 13 (31:58):
I love pragmatists, I love practical people. I'm also an
activist and an organizer and a strategist, and so I
see the value in all of it. I mean, I
think it's really important. You asked me before what Biden
should do. What we always do. We educate, we inform,
we organize, and we motivate people to show up, and
I think it's really important not to miss that step.
(32:18):
My real fear is that we've waited too late. So
we're months away from the election. Folks will start early
voting in no time, and we have not had the
chance to get the message right, to really engage people.
And every time I hear a young person it says
they're not going to vote, I think that's a voter
we need to be talking to. We need to make
sure that they are not only engaged by getting other
people to vote. I am very fearful of that, but
(32:40):
I like voters like this young man who are very practical,
because honestly, we need to let people know what's at
stake here. I mean, we need to let them know
that Trump being re elected is a threat not only
to our country but to our world.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
You know, it is a very tricky issue right now
for any politician to talk about without being shouted down.
I mean, every time I see a politician not showing
up at some public event. I'm like, I wonder if
they just don't want to have to face the protesters.
Right now, dan Amos, there is an election that's about
to happen in the United Kingdom.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
You're in Europe right now.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
Is this is hot a political issue in all these
places that the politicians just don't want to engage with
people on the issue.
Speaker 12 (33:21):
Yes, it is as hot here. What's been interesting in
Germany is a recent poll that was published by Dristern,
which is a weekly magazine, shows sixty two percent of
Germans disapprove of the eight month campaign in Gaza. Now
today is the eight month anniversary. That was surprising for Germans.
(33:41):
But I think you're also seeing a shift in opinion
in the United States. It's generational. Let's remember that in
Vietnam the protests didn't immediately have a change across America.
That took some time. But I mean, I certainly can
see that the younger generation has very strong opinions. They
(34:05):
eventually will run for office, be policymakers, and that is
that shift is happening, and let us see. It may
not be evident in this election, but it certainly is
not over, not by a lawn shot.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
We've certainly heard from a number of young people here
on this program this hour, and I want to, by
the way, say, you know, if you're a Republican and
this is going to have an effect on your vote,
give us a call it eight four four to forur middle.
Let's go to Catherine, who's in Jackson, Wyoming. Hi, Catherine,
welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 16 (34:40):
Go ahead, Hello, Jeremy. I'd like to think I'm young.
I am in Wyoming, very red state, so unfortunately, I
don't think it'll really matter what my vote is. But
I have been writing to the President Biden for the
(35:01):
last six months on my disapproval of how he has
conducted the war, and so I just can't vote for
him based on my conscience because I feel like my
vote is casting my vote. I think about the children
that are that were burned by the bottoms the other day,
and the tens of thousands of innocent people who've died
(35:26):
in this war. As a proponent of peace, that's my
vote is about that. I've been to Palestine myself firsthand,
and I've seen illegal settlements there and the Israeli policies there,
and I've always questioned our unconditional support of Israel, and
I feel like it's really affecting our relationships abroad, particularly
(35:48):
with the Arab world, and has affected our our national security.
Speaker 9 (35:55):
Is to vote?
Speaker 2 (35:56):
Are you just not going to vote for anybody?
Speaker 16 (35:59):
I don't feel like it. I'm going to continue to
write President Biden. I will and express that he's lost
my vote. He has. I voted for him a last
election that this war has and let it reflects he's
lost my vote.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Yeah, Catherine, thank you for that.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
If at Simpson, one thing I'm noticing is that a
lot of these people who say that they're not going
to vote for Biden are not saying that they're going
to vote for Trump.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
No.
Speaker 13 (36:27):
No, And that's the interesting thing about this conversation. I
was thinking about it as I thought about Mike Johnson's
inviting that and Yahoo to speak. Really, the Republicans have
the advantage the longer this war goes on, right Like,
if they can pull a few folks over to their side,
if they can get voters to stay home by creating
someone allowing us to go on to try to position
(36:49):
themselves as the supporters of Israel when we know the
anti anti anti sentimentism, the racism, the white nationalism that
they've supported, if they can just get a few you
look at two thousand, the margins are so tight eleven
thousand that many votes that Trump need the Secretary of
State to find him. In Georgia, we're talking about tight,
(37:10):
tight margins. And so the Republicans are in a powerful
position because every single person that called in here and
said they weren't voting, they're delivering a win for Republicans.
They don't have to do much. And so it's really important,
I think for Biden to remember from a political strategy
perspective that it's not just about what he does and
doesn't do. It's about the fact that the Republicans are
(37:31):
going to win no matter what. We've got to find
a way if you don't like what he did for
because you're pro Palestinian or pro what he did with
Israel because you're pro Israel either way, right like, we're
going to lose some people in the midst of that.
And I think it's really important for him to frame
that and be very careful about that because Republicans have
all to gain because they don't have any of these
(37:52):
coalitions at all. I mean, these are all overwhelmingly Democratic coalitions,
and every person that doesn't show up or that goes
to the other side, they win, we lose.
Speaker 1 (38:04):
Let's go to Pranav who's in Saint Louis, Missouri. Pranav,
welcome to the Middle. Is the war in the Middle
is going to affect your vote this November?
Speaker 21 (38:12):
Yeah, thanks for having me on. My name is Pernov.
I'm from the University of Chicago, so I've seen firsthand
an encampment. But on the other hand, we have a
very strong Israelian Jewish population. Just to quickly answer the question,
this is my first time voting. I planned on voting
for Biden before the October seventh attacks which exacerbated the
(38:32):
conflicts in the Middle East. I still plan on voting
for Biden. And the reason why is because I kind
of put myself in hymshoot in his shoes. What you
see is, you know, you have a pack, which is
a very strong political action committee that has supported Biden
close to five million dollars. But on the other hand,
a lot of his supporters sided with Palestine, so now
we have to do kind of a tight rope act.
(38:55):
I meanwhile, on the other hand, many of Trump' supporters
are very pro Israel. But on the other hand, he's
very backed by Apak, and so I do put myself
in Biden's too. I think it's the more pragmatic choice because,
with all due respect, I don't think that voting third
party or not voting is going to change the outcome
of the election. So it's probably better to go with
(39:15):
the candidate who I agree with more. A lot of
people who have talked to on campus, you know, they
try to replicate or parallel the camp David at Cords
or you on Resolution two forty two, and I simply
think that that's working backwards. So I think we just
have to go with the best candidate forward. In my opinion,
that's Biden.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
Panav thank you for calling in and Debora Amos. It's
always impressive how well versed in these issues our listeners are.
But still I come back to the question of you know,
when we get to November, with abortion and with democracy
and with so many other issues going on, is this
(39:55):
going to be the thing that when you get into
that voting booth, you say, I have to make my
choice based on what's going on in Gaza.
Speaker 12 (40:04):
You know, as I listened to these calls informed. Yes,
but I certainly haven't heard anybody say, Okay, this is
where Biden stands and this is where Trump stands. So
they're angry, and which is very understandable. They're outraged by
what they see. We live in a world where everybody
sees everything. But I haven't heard one person make the
(40:27):
comparison of policy abortion. People know that has been well
discussed in the media. I think you could wake up
anybody at three o'clock in the morning and ask them
who stands where, and you would get a coach in answer.
I'm not sure if you would. On Israel Palestine, I
don't I'm not sure if people have thought about Okay,
(40:48):
if I don't vote or I vote for Trump, then
what do I get.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
Let's go to Phyllis, who's in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. Hi, Phyllis,
go ahead, Hi.
Speaker 9 (40:58):
Thank you so very much for offering me to give
my opinion. I personally do not particularly care for the
way that the current administration is handling the situation with
Gaza with the Israelis. However, even though that is so,
(41:19):
I think we have bigger fish to fry here in
the United States about what will happen to our democracy,
What will happen to women's rights, What will happen with
the Supreme Court and the justice system if we shift
to somebody else. And I think we can always have
(41:41):
a shot at straightening up the Israeli conflict later if
democracy prevails. And I'm afraid that given another party, given
the Republican Party, that just may not happen.
Speaker 1 (41:56):
Phillis, thank you very much for that calling that Simpson,
This is the kind of voter probably that President Biden
and his team would like to hear from them.
Speaker 12 (42:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 13 (42:06):
Well, elections are always on the margins. Every election is
decided by who doesn't show up. I always say, not
who shows up. And I think, to Deb's point, those
voters who are going to vote on horror issues make
that comparison, they're the meat and potatoes. But the margins
is what I worry about when I think about knocking
on doors across this entire country in twenty twenty, it
(42:27):
was about pulling those few folks who wanted to stay home,
so much easier to stay home, or who didn't want
to choose the lesser that they thought of two evils.
Although I would say Biden is an angel compared to
the alternative. But it is our effort is to get
people out, and we do have the disadvantage as I
said before, because Republicans do fall in line. They show up,
(42:47):
they vote, they're enthusiastic, they don't care what their leaders do.
They're about getting retaining power. They're going to show up.
And then we have to do the work of making
sure that we get our folks out and I think
a huge education campaign around this war and what it
is and what it's not. The ironic thing is that
our coalitions and the party actually agree. I mean, when
(43:09):
you talk to progressives about what happened with Hamas and
the way that they infiltrated Jewish folks, they're like, that's wrong.
They don't think that was right at all. They also
don't like seeing Palestine death. My fear is every single
day we see more deaths. Every single day we see
hostage is not being released. Every single day hostages are
found dead. This thing is going to get more and
(43:30):
more heat. And if Biden is in the center, he's
going to get it coming and going. I think him
stepping out of the center and saying, hey, you know,
this is not the most important issue we have all
these other issues that we need you to think about.
Is the play him continuing to bring it back to
this with the speech last week, and you know, he
made a bunch of we're gonna end this war and
Hamas is going to go packing, and those are prompt
(43:53):
We had a long war in the Middle East ourselves,
and we know that it's not easy to displace terrorists.
It is not an easy thing to negotiate with them
or get them to do what you want them to do.
It is also not easy to get a sovereign to
do what you tell them to do, especially someone as
strong as Benjamin h Yeah, so I think he just
needs to reset on that.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
I'm gonna squeeze one more call in here. Rashid is
an irving Texas. Hi, Rashid, go ahead, welcome to.
Speaker 5 (44:17):
The Middle Hi, thank you. And as fons the war
in Gaza. It won't affect my vote. And the reason
for that is because both candidates, they've occupied the Oval office,
their character has already been shown. And you know, I
remember being in college during the Trump presidency, and you know,
(44:38):
I was in law school, you know, during the Biden presidency,
and you know, we still felt the aftermaths of the
Trump presidency, like for example, they like the Federal Society
at my school, they had the man who argued Dabbs
Scott G. Stewart, you know, doing a victory tour over
(45:00):
rolling back reproductive rights, and that really stuck, you know,
to my core. And you know, I think in this election,
you know, there is other things to worry about, as
have already been said, besides the war in Gaza, and
I know that I think that Biden has the better
(45:22):
character between the two.
Speaker 2 (45:24):
Rashid, thank you for that, dev Amos.
Speaker 1 (45:27):
One question I have is, as you're looking at this
from Europe right now, is the rest of the world
relying on the United States to solve this problem because
as we've heard, Netanyahu's very powerful obviously hamas is also
is in control of this situation as well. Is the
United States being seen as the power that can bring
a cease fire?
Speaker 12 (45:50):
Yes and no, Yes, because there is some power there,
but no what you see. For example, today Spain announced
that it was joining South Africa in the charge of
genocide against Israel at the International Court. States here in
(46:13):
Europe have decided to pull back on arm sales to
Israel seventeen nations join Biden's call for a ceasefire. I mean,
everybody's got domestic politics on this too. This issue is
as hot in Europe as it is in the United States,
so politicians can't be seen to be doing nothing. I'm
(46:36):
very curious though, what will be the reaction in the US,
especially these young voters when the Israeli Prime minister invited
by Republicans to speak in Congress. I will be watching
that closely to see are their protests.
Speaker 1 (46:53):
What about in the Congress ef that, Do you think
that we're going to see people members walk out?
Speaker 13 (46:58):
I think so, I think so, I think, But I
do think that it's tricky, right, Like the more you
alienate and make Netanyahu an enemy, the more the Republicans win,
Like he gets stronger the more you make him the enemy.
And so I'm curious about you know, Democrats are split
on this issue on the vote of whether he should
even be allowed to speak, and so it'll be interesting
to see whether or not they give him the power
(47:21):
that he desires. Right, as long as he's the man
in the middle, as long as he's the man who
then he gets more alienated, then he gets stronger, particularly
with Jewish Americans who see him as synonymous with Israel
and the key to solving this war. Which I know
that there are a lot of folks who don't like
Netan Yahoo, but they also see him in a time
of war is the one who can get them out
(47:41):
of this. So I'd be very very careful as Democrats
about how we react here from a political strategy perspective,
because Republicans are doing this because they want Democrats to
take the bait on this.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Well, what a fascinating hour, so many incredible calls, and
of course I want to thank my guest, former MPR
International course on a Debora Amus early morning in Berlin.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
Thank you very.
Speaker 1 (48:03):
Much, thank you for having me and Ivette Simpson, a
democratic political strategist and former executive director of Democracy for America.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
Ivett great to have you on as well.
Speaker 13 (48:13):
Always a good time with you, Jeremy, thanks for having
me and Toliver.
Speaker 2 (48:17):
What is on tap for next week?
Speaker 3 (48:18):
We'll be asking how do we take the politics out
of climate change. We'll be joined by former EPA administrator
Gina McCarthy and meteorologist Ryan Hanrahan. You can join the
conversation by calling eight four four four Middle or going
to listen to the Middle dot com and.
Speaker 1 (48:31):
While you're there, you can sign up for our weekly newsletter.
The Middle is brought to you by Long Nook Media,
produced distributed by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and
produced by Joeann Jennings, Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, and John Barth.
Our intern is Anika Deshler. Our technical director this week
is Steve mork. Our theme music was composed by Andrew Hagen.
Apparently all of our listeners are between eighteen and twenty
(48:51):
five years old, so that's great. Thanks also to Nashville
Public Radio, iHeartMedia, and the more than four hundred and
ten public radio stations that are making it possible for
people across the country to listen to The Middle. I'm
Jeremy Hobson and I'll talk to you next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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