October 14, 2025 • 18 mins
In this episode of One Thing Trump Did, we look at the claim from Heath and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. about a supposed link between acetaminophen (the active ingredient in Tylenol) and autism. Jeremy is joined by pediatric allergist and immunologist Dr. Zachary Rubin. #tylenol #acetaminophen #autism # #RFK #Trump #HHS
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to another episode of One Thing Trump Did, available
exclusively on the Middle Podcast Feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson, and
every week on this show we pick just one thing
coming out of the Trump White House and break it
down in a non partisan way with someone who knows
what they're talking about. And our one thing this week
is autism, also known as autism spectrum disorder. It's a
(00:36):
condition often characterized by difficulties in social communication and interaction,
and according to the latest data from the CDC, the
condition is estimated to affect one in thirty one children
around the United States. Autism has also been a particular
focus of Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Junior,
who has proffered a number of unproven theories surrounding the
(00:58):
cause of autism, including that certain vaccines can cause it,
or that it is brought on by environmental toxins. But
now Kennedy and Trump say it's the use of taileanol
during pregnancy.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
HHS will act on aceta metaphine. The FDA is responding
to clinical and laboratory studies that suggests a potential association
between a cinam metaphin used during pregnancy and advertise or
developmental outcomes, including later diagnosis for ADHD and autism. Scientists
(01:32):
are proposed biological mechanisms linking prenatal acida medicine exposure to
altered brain development. We have also evaluated the contrary studies
that show no association. Today, the FDA will issue physician's
notice about the risk of aceta metaphine during pregnancy and
begin the process to initiate a safety label change.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Well, joining me now is doctor Zachary Rubin, a pediatric
allergist and immunelogist. Doctor Rubin is great to have you here.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Well, before we start digging into this, what was your
initial reaction when you heard Kennedy and Trump make this
link between taile and all during pregnancy and autism.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So I was actually visiting my parents when we were
watching the press conference. My dad's a general pediatrician in
the area. I started out in general pediatrics and keep
my certification and our jaws just both dropped when he
was talking at that press conference because he was telling
the general public for pregnant women to not take a
seat of minifin known as tail and all based off
(02:36):
of really no new data on this issue, and it's
become this hot button topic because of Robert F. Kennedy
Junior's messaging lately about how he has this agenda that
he's been wanting to figure out what is the underlying
cause of autism spectrum disorder, when scientists have been working
at this for decades and people are working on this
(02:57):
as their entire career, and so to hear the President
say these statements, even when he even said that he
doesn't care about talking about it carefully, unlike what Robert F.
Kennedy Junior is doing, it sends a very clear message
to folks that in his position of authority, this is
what he thinks is the right thing to do. Even
(03:18):
though there is not strong evidence to link a sedom
inafin use during pregnancy and children developing autism spectrum disorder
and other neurodevelopmental disorders later in.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Life, Well, what do we know at this point about
the potential causes of autism?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
So there's a few issues here. One is the fact
that our criteria to diagnose autism spectrum disorder has extremely
expanded over the past several years. So in the latest
DSM five criteria, they lumped several different diagnoses together to
describe autism as more of a spectrum as the name implies,
So you're going to find a lot more people will
(03:57):
fall under the category of autism spectrum disorder. It's going
to increase the diagnoses. We're just looking for it better.
We have a better understanding of it. If you look
at forty fifty years ago, people might have been called
an idiots savant as an example. There is also the
term Asperger syndrome, and so many different ways that people
have different neurodevelopmental conditions would end up being lumped into
(04:20):
one category. But because it's a spectrum, there's a wide
range of differences that we often talk to and refer
to as neurodiversity. And it doesn't necessarily mean that a
lot of people need a lot of extra help. Some do, absolutely,
and we need to support those who do. But it
ends up stigmatizing folks who carry this diagnosis and hear
(04:41):
the President and the Health and Human Services Secretary say
that this is an epidemic and this is tragic, when
in reality that's not what's happening.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
So you think there are not more children today with
autism than there were ten twenty thirty years ago. We're
just better at diagnosing it.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
It's not to the same less level that the current
administration is saying. Part of it, again is increased surveillance,
and there may be some environmental factors, but it's often
passed down through genetics. We've already isolated hundreds of genes
that are associated with people developing autism spectrum disorder. But
like a lot of chronic conditions that I take care
(05:20):
of and other physicians take care of, it's not one
root issue. There's multiple issues, whether it's genetics and environment
playing a role for something to turn out later in
life or at the beginning of life.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Well, and when it comes to the connection between thail
and all during pregnancy and autism, I was reading an
article about a mother who has three children with autism
who said, I never took tailanol during pregnancy, and she
was actually insulted by this announcement. Do you think people
who have autism or children with autism took what Kennedy
(05:54):
and Trump said seriously?
Speaker 3 (05:58):
From my patience and the community that I that I serve,
most of them were very offended by it because it
essentially places blames on moms right that, well, if you
took this medication, this is why your child ended up
this particular way, and it's extremely tragic and that's not
the reality of the situation. We need to make sure
that we support those who live with autism spectrum disorder,
(06:19):
have acceptance if there's any kind of support that's needed.
That's what we really need to figure out at this time,
and not frame this as something that is extremely tragic
that we're not going to be able to survive as
a society because people have neurodiversity essentially, so you're.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Not seeing patients say I'm worried about taking tail and
all during pregnancy.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Now, not really in my practice, but I know of
my colleagues in obgui N who are talking to pregnant
moms every single day, have been fielding a lot of
questions and concerns about this, and I've taken to social
media to discuss these issues and go over the studies
that they're talking about to help clarify some of these
(07:01):
misconceptions that are happening. Because they keep saying that there's
a Harvard study that came out. It actually wasn't from Harvard,
it was from Mount Sinai. They just happened to have
the dean of Harvard's public school, a public health school
now there, So they're mislabeling it. And the study that
they're talking about is review of forty six other studies.
(07:22):
And when you take a bunch of studies and put
them together to make a conclusion, if you have a
weak study or two in there, it's going to make
the data not as credible. And a lot of these
studies used maternal recall, so they asked moms whether or
not they were taking a seat of menifin during pregnancy
and how much. And you know, for you and me,
it's like, do you remember what your meal was three
(07:43):
weeks ago or three months ago. It's going to be hard.
That's something we call recall bias. And so those studies
were also fraught with confounding factors where they didn't really
adjust for genetics or necessarily why they were taking a
seat of menifin. To begin with, we know that fee
can increase the risk of children developing neurodevelopmental disorders, which
(08:05):
makes sense because of the increased inflammation that is going on.
And there's a lot of confusing points that people are
hearing that are not true, and it takes time to
unravel it. But when you get a SoundBite from the
President saying, tough it out, don't take a seat of
minefit or tilent all during pregnancy. That's going to carry weight.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Well, but if you look at all of those studies
that you talk about, and you think about the fact
that autism spectrum disorder we know comes from a mix
of things, could be you know, some of it is genetic,
some of it may be environmental factors. Is it possible
just in part of that data that there is some link.
It's not like it's a you know, if you take
tilent all during pregnancy, then you're going to have a
(08:46):
child with autism, but that maybe it's one of the
contributing factors.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
When you look at the data. There are studies that
are saying that absolutely. And so let's say, for discussions sake,
it was a part of it. It's it's going to
be modest at best. But what helps kind of put
this to rest is there was a study out of
Sweden where they controlled for as many confounding factors as
possible by looking at siblings, and they found that over
(09:11):
two million kids that relationship went away between acetam minifin
use and pregnancy and autism. And it's a very well done,
high powered study to show that there's really no association there.
And then let's look at the flip side here. If
a mom has a fever during pregnancy, what medications can
they take safely? Right, there was a politician I'm forgetting
(09:35):
who it was when I'm Bill Maher recently saying we
should look into ibuprofen to be used during pregnancy. And
the problem is is that ibuprofen is already known to
cause severe birth defects or increase the risk of miscarriage
depending on when you're taking it. There's really no other
safe alternative to aceta minifin, and telling moms to tough
it out is not good advice.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Why do you think that Kennedy and Trump made this link? Well,
Robert F.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Kennedy Junior said several months ago over the summer that
they were going to find the cause of autism by September,
and they didn't. They had to put something out there,
and they knew they couldn't say vaccines because that's been
studied over and over and over again. So they found
something that they could cherry pick the data to be
able to make this kind of link. And if you
look at the FDA's language and the letter they sent
(10:25):
to physicians, they even say there's no causal link. They
flat out admit that. So what they're telling healthcare workers
is very different than what they're telling the general public.
It's this mixed messaging that's very concerning and confusing.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Even Mehmet Oz, doctor Oz, who's in the administration, in
his quote in the press release from Health and Human Services,
it's like he's not exactly saying what they're saying. He's
just saying, Oh, it's good that we're looking into this
as one of the many options that might be causing autism,
which is I just thought it was kind of interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Stay with us because in a moment we're going to.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Talk about the treatment option that Kennedy announced for people
with autism. One Thing Trump did with doctor Zachary Ruben
will be right back. Welcome back to One Thing Trump
(11:26):
did exclusively on the Middle Podcast feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
This episode, we're talking about the Trump administration linking acetamnifin,
the active ingredient in tailenol and autism, and I'm joined
by doctor Zachary Rubin, a pediatric allergist and immunologist. Doctor Rubin.
I had not heard of this medication before, but it's
called luke overn. It is a medication used to help
with the effects of a cancer medication. Kennedy now says
(11:49):
it can be used to treat autism.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
What is it?
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Great question? So luca worn is a type of fold yea,
I even said it wrong, luc of or well, at
least you didn't say a senaminimon you know. I know
it's a little low. But the point is that lukavorn
as a folate type supplement, has been tested in a
small subset of children with autism spectrum disorder, but those
(12:16):
who have significant language delay, and there is a theory
that some folks with autism spectrum disorder may have an
autoimmune response that makes it difficult for folate to get
into the brain and that the supplement could potentially help
with that. So for a small subset of children with
autism spectrum disorder that have severe language difficulty, there is
(12:40):
a small amount of evidence that it may work. But
the way that they're talking about it is overgeneralizing the
supplement that is normally used, like you were mentioning before
for chemotherapy. So if you take a medicine called methatrexate
that can deplete folate and you need to be able
to replenish that during chemotherapy. And so there's a theoretical
(13:02):
concern that if they're going to tout this supplement, are
we going to be able to have enough for those
who actually need it? And is it going to have
the benefits that is going to be there. There's potential risks,
just like any type of therapy, and normally the FDA
would look at this and highly scrutinize it, but it's
unusual to me that they move so quickly on this.
(13:24):
From my own research, it turns out that doctor Oz
used to have some clear conflicts of interest with a
company called IRB and had several millions of dollars related
to that company. Now he's supposed to divest it now
that he's in the position that he's in. But it
makes you wonder what is the endgame here with this
(13:45):
type of recommendation.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
What are the treatments for autism right now?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
A lot of the treatments have to do with supportive
therapies to be able to make sure that they're able
to really go through day to day life with some
of the sensory issues that they may have, some processing
disorders that they may have to be able to learn
and grow, just like any child that goes to school,
(14:14):
So they may have special accommodations depending on some of
the behaviors. There may be certain medications used depending on
what's going on, and it's highly individualized.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
So I wonder how the perception of autism. You mentioned
the word stigma earlier, but how it has changed over
the decades. There are now these two E schools twice
exceptional meaning someone who both has autism but also exceptional
intellectual skills and by their way. I remember years ago
doing an interview with a father whose son had autism,
and I use the word autistic and somebody rightly called
(14:48):
me out and said, that's not how you refer to
somebody with autism, because it's not the thing that defines
the person. It's just something that is part of who
they are. How has the perception around autism changed in
your time?
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Well, I think we were moving in the right direction
in terms of trying to understand it better to have
more acceptance. Yes, the language is really important because we
want to treat people as people and not label them.
Right because it can be quite offending. But lately, in
the past eight months, I feel like we've taken ten
steps backwards in how we talk about this, which has
(15:23):
been rather concerning to me, because the more stigma that
we have on people, the less likely they're going to
want to seek help in the ways that would be helpful.
And also the ability to get funding to help people
has been constrained in many ways. What do you mean
so not necessarily just I'm talking about autism spectrum disorder
(15:43):
in general, but when we talk about our state of
public health right now, with the fact that we've had
all sorts of experts leaving or being fired and being
demonized for what they're doing, it's caused a lot of
mistrust that's been misplaced on scientists and healthcare professionals. So
the ability for people to necessarily seek out the right
(16:04):
care may end up getting limited over time.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
That, by the way, is the topic of our Middle
show coming up later this week with Neil deGrasse Tyson.
We're going to be talking about the role of science
in public life, which gets to this, but also all
the science funding that's been cut by the Trump administration
so far. By the way, the maker of Tailanal is
a company called Kenview. It saw its stock price drop
(16:30):
after the announcement from Trump and Kennedy. It's now at
a two year low. So it does seem like many
people obviously trusted this warning.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Well, let's remember what happened in the beginning of the
COVID nineteen pandemic when President Trump was saying we should
look into bleach as a treatment, and then right afterwards
there was a rise in the number of poison control
calls related to disinfect and exposure. So his words have
a lot of meaning that people take seriously, which is
why I'm glad that you're having me on to talk
(17:01):
about this, because people need to understand that they should
be talking with their doctor and trusting their doctors over
a politician.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Doctor Rubin.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Just before we let you go, as somebody who has
studied this is focused on it has patients who deal
with this. What's your sort of thought about how soon
there will be better treatment for autism in this country.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Well, our rigor in terms of looking into all these
different issues, not just autism spectrum disorder, but infectious disease
and other chronic diseases. Our ability to advance science is
at an all time high. I mean, look at the
beginning of the pandemic when we had to develop a
vaccine which was based off of decades of scientific rigor.
But we were able to get all the resources together
(17:47):
to get a very large scale clinical trial to show
a safe and effective vaccine, and we did that through
human ingenuity. And I am hopeful that we'll have better
understanding and better treatment as we continue to advance science
and medicine. So I am hopeful.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
That is doctor Zachary Rubin, who is a pediatric allergist
and immunologist.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Doctor Ruben, thank you so much for coming on the show,
Thank you for having me, and thanks to you for.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Listening to One thing Trump did. It was produced by
Harrison Patino. As I said Neil deGrasse Tyson on the
middle later this week, the Role of Science in public life.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
And if you like this.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Podcast, please rate it five stars. Wherever you get your podcast,
write a review. Our theme music was composed by Noah Haidu.
I'm Jeremy Hobson and I will talk to you soon.
Welcome to another episode of One Thing Trump Did, available
exclusively on the Middle Podcast Feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson, and
every week on this show we pick just one thing
coming out of the Trump White House and break it
down in a non partisan way with someone who knows
what they're talking about. And our one thing this week
is autism, also known as autism spectrum disorder. It's a
(00:36):
condition often characterized by difficulties in social communication and interaction,
and according to the latest data from the CDC, the
condition is estimated to affect one in thirty one children
around the United States. Autism has also been a particular
focus of Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Junior,
who has proffered a number of unproven theories surrounding the
(00:58):
cause of autism, including that certain vaccines can cause it,
or that it is brought on by environmental toxins. But
now Kennedy and Trump say it's the use of taileanol
during pregnancy.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
HHS will act on aceta metaphine. The FDA is responding
to clinical and laboratory studies that suggests a potential association
between a cinam metaphin used during pregnancy and advertise or
developmental outcomes, including later diagnosis for ADHD and autism. Scientists
(01:32):
are proposed biological mechanisms linking prenatal acida medicine exposure to
altered brain development. We have also evaluated the contrary studies
that show no association. Today, the FDA will issue physician's
notice about the risk of aceta metaphine during pregnancy and
begin the process to initiate a safety label change.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Well, joining me now is doctor Zachary Rubin, a pediatric
allergist and immunelogist. Doctor Rubin is great to have you here.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Well, before we start digging into this, what was your
initial reaction when you heard Kennedy and Trump make this
link between taile and all during pregnancy and autism.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
So I was actually visiting my parents when we were
watching the press conference. My dad's a general pediatrician in
the area. I started out in general pediatrics and keep
my certification and our jaws just both dropped when he
was talking at that press conference because he was telling
the general public for pregnant women to not take a
seat of minifin known as tail and all based off
(02:36):
of really no new data on this issue, and it's
become this hot button topic because of Robert F. Kennedy
Junior's messaging lately about how he has this agenda that
he's been wanting to figure out what is the underlying
cause of autism spectrum disorder, when scientists have been working
at this for decades and people are working on this
(02:57):
as their entire career, and so to hear the President
say these statements, even when he even said that he
doesn't care about talking about it carefully, unlike what Robert F.
Kennedy Junior is doing, it sends a very clear message
to folks that in his position of authority, this is
what he thinks is the right thing to do. Even
(03:18):
though there is not strong evidence to link a sedom
inafin use during pregnancy and children developing autism spectrum disorder
and other neurodevelopmental disorders later in.
Speaker 1 (03:28):
Life, Well, what do we know at this point about
the potential causes of autism?
Speaker 3 (03:34):
So there's a few issues here. One is the fact
that our criteria to diagnose autism spectrum disorder has extremely
expanded over the past several years. So in the latest
DSM five criteria, they lumped several different diagnoses together to
describe autism as more of a spectrum as the name implies,
So you're going to find a lot more people will
(03:57):
fall under the category of autism spectrum disorder. It's going
to increase the diagnoses. We're just looking for it better.
We have a better understanding of it. If you look
at forty fifty years ago, people might have been called
an idiots savant as an example. There is also the
term Asperger syndrome, and so many different ways that people
have different neurodevelopmental conditions would end up being lumped into
(04:20):
one category. But because it's a spectrum, there's a wide
range of differences that we often talk to and refer
to as neurodiversity. And it doesn't necessarily mean that a
lot of people need a lot of extra help. Some do, absolutely,
and we need to support those who do. But it
ends up stigmatizing folks who carry this diagnosis and hear
(04:41):
the President and the Health and Human Services Secretary say
that this is an epidemic and this is tragic, when
in reality that's not what's happening.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
So you think there are not more children today with
autism than there were ten twenty thirty years ago. We're
just better at diagnosing it.
Speaker 3 (04:58):
It's not to the same less level that the current
administration is saying. Part of it, again is increased surveillance,
and there may be some environmental factors, but it's often
passed down through genetics. We've already isolated hundreds of genes
that are associated with people developing autism spectrum disorder. But
like a lot of chronic conditions that I take care
(05:20):
of and other physicians take care of, it's not one
root issue. There's multiple issues, whether it's genetics and environment
playing a role for something to turn out later in
life or at the beginning of life.
Speaker 1 (05:31):
Well, and when it comes to the connection between thail
and all during pregnancy and autism, I was reading an
article about a mother who has three children with autism
who said, I never took tailanol during pregnancy, and she
was actually insulted by this announcement. Do you think people
who have autism or children with autism took what Kennedy
(05:54):
and Trump said seriously?
Speaker 3 (05:58):
From my patience and the community that I that I serve,
most of them were very offended by it because it
essentially places blames on moms right that, well, if you
took this medication, this is why your child ended up
this particular way, and it's extremely tragic and that's not
the reality of the situation. We need to make sure
that we support those who live with autism spectrum disorder,
(06:19):
have acceptance if there's any kind of support that's needed.
That's what we really need to figure out at this time,
and not frame this as something that is extremely tragic
that we're not going to be able to survive as
a society because people have neurodiversity essentially, so you're.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Not seeing patients say I'm worried about taking tail and
all during pregnancy.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Now, not really in my practice, but I know of
my colleagues in obgui N who are talking to pregnant
moms every single day, have been fielding a lot of
questions and concerns about this, and I've taken to social
media to discuss these issues and go over the studies
that they're talking about to help clarify some of these
(07:01):
misconceptions that are happening. Because they keep saying that there's
a Harvard study that came out. It actually wasn't from Harvard,
it was from Mount Sinai. They just happened to have
the dean of Harvard's public school, a public health school
now there, So they're mislabeling it. And the study that
they're talking about is review of forty six other studies.
(07:22):
And when you take a bunch of studies and put
them together to make a conclusion, if you have a
weak study or two in there, it's going to make
the data not as credible. And a lot of these
studies used maternal recall, so they asked moms whether or
not they were taking a seat of menifin during pregnancy
and how much. And you know, for you and me,
it's like, do you remember what your meal was three
(07:43):
weeks ago or three months ago. It's going to be hard.
That's something we call recall bias. And so those studies
were also fraught with confounding factors where they didn't really
adjust for genetics or necessarily why they were taking a
seat of menifin. To begin with, we know that fee
can increase the risk of children developing neurodevelopmental disorders, which
(08:05):
makes sense because of the increased inflammation that is going on.
And there's a lot of confusing points that people are
hearing that are not true, and it takes time to
unravel it. But when you get a SoundBite from the
President saying, tough it out, don't take a seat of
minefit or tilent all during pregnancy. That's going to carry weight.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Well, but if you look at all of those studies
that you talk about, and you think about the fact
that autism spectrum disorder we know comes from a mix
of things, could be you know, some of it is genetic,
some of it may be environmental factors. Is it possible
just in part of that data that there is some link.
It's not like it's a you know, if you take
tilent all during pregnancy, then you're going to have a
(08:46):
child with autism, but that maybe it's one of the
contributing factors.
Speaker 3 (08:50):
When you look at the data. There are studies that
are saying that absolutely. And so let's say, for discussions sake,
it was a part of it. It's it's going to
be modest at best. But what helps kind of put
this to rest is there was a study out of
Sweden where they controlled for as many confounding factors as
possible by looking at siblings, and they found that over
(09:11):
two million kids that relationship went away between acetam minifin
use and pregnancy and autism. And it's a very well done,
high powered study to show that there's really no association there.
And then let's look at the flip side here. If
a mom has a fever during pregnancy, what medications can
they take safely? Right, there was a politician I'm forgetting
(09:35):
who it was when I'm Bill Maher recently saying we
should look into ibuprofen to be used during pregnancy. And
the problem is is that ibuprofen is already known to
cause severe birth defects or increase the risk of miscarriage
depending on when you're taking it. There's really no other
safe alternative to aceta minifin, and telling moms to tough
it out is not good advice.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
Why do you think that Kennedy and Trump made this link? Well,
Robert F.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Kennedy Junior said several months ago over the summer that
they were going to find the cause of autism by September,
and they didn't. They had to put something out there,
and they knew they couldn't say vaccines because that's been
studied over and over and over again. So they found
something that they could cherry pick the data to be
able to make this kind of link. And if you
look at the FDA's language and the letter they sent
(10:25):
to physicians, they even say there's no causal link. They
flat out admit that. So what they're telling healthcare workers
is very different than what they're telling the general public.
It's this mixed messaging that's very concerning and confusing.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
Even Mehmet Oz, doctor Oz, who's in the administration, in
his quote in the press release from Health and Human Services,
it's like he's not exactly saying what they're saying. He's
just saying, Oh, it's good that we're looking into this
as one of the many options that might be causing autism,
which is I just thought it was kind of interesting.
Speaker 4 (10:57):
Stay with us because in a moment we're going to.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Talk about the treatment option that Kennedy announced for people
with autism. One Thing Trump did with doctor Zachary Ruben
will be right back. Welcome back to One Thing Trump
(11:26):
did exclusively on the Middle Podcast feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
This episode, we're talking about the Trump administration linking acetamnifin,
the active ingredient in tailenol and autism, and I'm joined
by doctor Zachary Rubin, a pediatric allergist and immunologist. Doctor Rubin.
I had not heard of this medication before, but it's
called luke overn. It is a medication used to help
with the effects of a cancer medication. Kennedy now says
(11:49):
it can be used to treat autism.
Speaker 4 (11:52):
What is it?
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Great question? So luca worn is a type of fold yea,
I even said it wrong, luc of or well, at
least you didn't say a senaminimon you know. I know
it's a little low. But the point is that lukavorn
as a folate type supplement, has been tested in a
small subset of children with autism spectrum disorder, but those
(12:16):
who have significant language delay, and there is a theory
that some folks with autism spectrum disorder may have an
autoimmune response that makes it difficult for folate to get
into the brain and that the supplement could potentially help
with that. So for a small subset of children with
autism spectrum disorder that have severe language difficulty, there is
(12:40):
a small amount of evidence that it may work. But
the way that they're talking about it is overgeneralizing the
supplement that is normally used, like you were mentioning before
for chemotherapy. So if you take a medicine called methatrexate
that can deplete folate and you need to be able
to replenish that during chemotherapy. And so there's a theoretical
(13:02):
concern that if they're going to tout this supplement, are
we going to be able to have enough for those
who actually need it? And is it going to have
the benefits that is going to be there. There's potential risks,
just like any type of therapy, and normally the FDA
would look at this and highly scrutinize it, but it's
unusual to me that they move so quickly on this.
(13:24):
From my own research, it turns out that doctor Oz
used to have some clear conflicts of interest with a
company called IRB and had several millions of dollars related
to that company. Now he's supposed to divest it now
that he's in the position that he's in. But it
makes you wonder what is the endgame here with this
(13:45):
type of recommendation.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
What are the treatments for autism right now?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
A lot of the treatments have to do with supportive
therapies to be able to make sure that they're able
to really go through day to day life with some
of the sensory issues that they may have, some processing
disorders that they may have to be able to learn
and grow, just like any child that goes to school,
(14:14):
So they may have special accommodations depending on some of
the behaviors. There may be certain medications used depending on
what's going on, and it's highly individualized.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
So I wonder how the perception of autism. You mentioned
the word stigma earlier, but how it has changed over
the decades. There are now these two E schools twice
exceptional meaning someone who both has autism but also exceptional
intellectual skills and by their way. I remember years ago
doing an interview with a father whose son had autism,
and I use the word autistic and somebody rightly called
(14:48):
me out and said, that's not how you refer to
somebody with autism, because it's not the thing that defines
the person. It's just something that is part of who
they are. How has the perception around autism changed in
your time?
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Well, I think we were moving in the right direction
in terms of trying to understand it better to have
more acceptance. Yes, the language is really important because we
want to treat people as people and not label them.
Right because it can be quite offending. But lately, in
the past eight months, I feel like we've taken ten
steps backwards in how we talk about this, which has
(15:23):
been rather concerning to me, because the more stigma that
we have on people, the less likely they're going to
want to seek help in the ways that would be helpful.
And also the ability to get funding to help people
has been constrained in many ways. What do you mean
so not necessarily just I'm talking about autism spectrum disorder
(15:43):
in general, but when we talk about our state of
public health right now, with the fact that we've had
all sorts of experts leaving or being fired and being
demonized for what they're doing, it's caused a lot of
mistrust that's been misplaced on scientists and healthcare professionals. So
the ability for people to necessarily seek out the right
(16:04):
care may end up getting limited over time.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
That, by the way, is the topic of our Middle
show coming up later this week with Neil deGrasse Tyson.
We're going to be talking about the role of science
in public life, which gets to this, but also all
the science funding that's been cut by the Trump administration
so far. By the way, the maker of Tailanal is
a company called Kenview. It saw its stock price drop
(16:30):
after the announcement from Trump and Kennedy. It's now at
a two year low. So it does seem like many
people obviously trusted this warning.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
Well, let's remember what happened in the beginning of the
COVID nineteen pandemic when President Trump was saying we should
look into bleach as a treatment, and then right afterwards
there was a rise in the number of poison control
calls related to disinfect and exposure. So his words have
a lot of meaning that people take seriously, which is
why I'm glad that you're having me on to talk
(17:01):
about this, because people need to understand that they should
be talking with their doctor and trusting their doctors over
a politician.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
Doctor Rubin.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Just before we let you go, as somebody who has
studied this is focused on it has patients who deal
with this. What's your sort of thought about how soon
there will be better treatment for autism in this country.
Speaker 3 (17:25):
Well, our rigor in terms of looking into all these
different issues, not just autism spectrum disorder, but infectious disease
and other chronic diseases. Our ability to advance science is
at an all time high. I mean, look at the
beginning of the pandemic when we had to develop a
vaccine which was based off of decades of scientific rigor.
But we were able to get all the resources together
(17:47):
to get a very large scale clinical trial to show
a safe and effective vaccine, and we did that through
human ingenuity. And I am hopeful that we'll have better
understanding and better treatment as we continue to advance science
and medicine. So I am hopeful.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
That is doctor Zachary Rubin, who is a pediatric allergist
and immunologist.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
Doctor Ruben, thank you so much for coming on the show,
Thank you for having me, and thanks to you for.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Listening to One thing Trump did. It was produced by
Harrison Patino. As I said Neil deGrasse Tyson on the
middle later this week, the Role of Science in public life.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
And if you like this.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
Podcast, please rate it five stars. Wherever you get your podcast,
write a review. Our theme music was composed by Noah Haidu.
I'm Jeremy Hobson and I will talk to you soon.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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