June 16, 2025 • 21 mins
In this episode of One Thing Trump Did, we look at efforts from the Trump administration to discourage the use of fluoride from our water supplies. Jeremy is joined by Dr. Omer Awan, a senior contributor for Forbes and practicing radiologist physician in Baltimore, Maryland who writes about issues in healthcare and public health. #fluoride #RFK #HHS #health #dental #dentalhygiene #cavities #toothdecay
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to One Thing Trump Did, available exclusively on The
Middle podcast Speed. I'm Jeremy Hobson, and as you know
if you're a regular listener, each week on this show,
we picked just one thing coming out of the Trump
White House to focus on and break it down in
a nonpartisan way with someone who knows what they're talking about.
And we had our pick of the litter this week.
But we have decided we're going to be taking sort
(00:35):
of a trip to the dentist's office because our one
thing is the effort by Trump's Health and Human Services
Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Junior, to discourage localities from adding
fluoride to drinking water, which has been done for decades
across this country. Kennedy believes fluoride is linked to negative
health effects and has ordered the Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention to stop recommending that fluoride be added to
(00:58):
drinking water. Here are some of his thoughts on that
from an interview with The New York Sun last year.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I think fluoride is a poison. If a fluoride truck
crashes on the highway, they have to clear the highway
for miles around, and people come in and dive ocksuits
and respirators and gloves. It's a toxic byproduct of the
certain chemical process and oil industry process. And for many
(01:25):
years those industries it was costing them thousands of dollars
per drum to get rid of them. And then they
came up with the idea, why don't we put it
in the water supply.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, RFK Junior is now perhaps the most powerful person
in healthcare as the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
So let's talk about this with doctor omer Awan, who's
a senior contributor for Forbes and practicing radiologist physician in Baltimore,
writes about issues in healthcare and public health.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Doctor Awan, welcome, Thanks, thanks so much for having me.
Jeremy Well, and.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Let's just first of all, start with the basics. What
is fluoride.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Well, fluoride is a mineral, and it's a mineral that's
been used for all sorts of things. We have fluoride
in some of our food, so things like seafood, grapes, raisins,
for example. All these things have florida and we do
consume a certain amount of fluoride in our natural diet.
How it comes in with aural health is that a
(02:18):
lot of toothpastes carry fluoride and we brush your teeth,
you're adding fluoride because that helps stabilize some of your teeth.
It prevents acid from kind of destroying your teeth and
resulting in tooth to k So it's become an important
topic now with Secretary Kennedy because he's talking about floridae
and how that could potentially impact health and public health.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
And it actually appears naturally in some water supplies, right.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
It does appear in some water supplies, but there has
been a move to add fluoride in certain water supplies. So,
you know, the United States introduce fluoride in nineteen forty five,
and then they started to recommend it. The United States
Service recommended in nineteen sixty two because because they believe
that fluoride can't significantly reduce the risk of cavities and
(03:04):
tooth decay essentially, and it in low concentrations in low concentration,
So that's how it's sort of started. And it's been
in the public water supply for decades now. Obviously, you
know for over you know, fifty seventy years.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Is there anything else that you can think of that.
We do that with that, we add something to the
water supply to help us out with the various health issues.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Not that I'm aware of. We certainly do it for
certain foods, preservatives and things like that, but in terms
of water, you know, different, water is different. You know,
they have certain minerals, certain chemicals in them. But fluoride
really does have certain health benefits when used appropriately.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
And why did the US and the other countries, because
there are a number of other countries around the world,
why did they start adding it in the first place.
Somebody came up with this idea, Oh, this is actually useful.
Let's just start putting it into the water supply. I'm
sure nobody will be angry.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Well, it's cost active, Jeremy, because it'll prevent cavities, and
we're talking about billions of dollars that can be saved from,
you know, dental procedures, visits to the dental office. You know,
according to the American Dental Association, fluoride reduces the risk
of tooth decay and cavities by twenty five percent. And
that's true for both children and adults. It's not just
a pediatric entity here. We're talking about even for people
(04:22):
like myself and you. You know, it really has a
profound effect when use appropriate, when used in certain concentrations
in water.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So it's only added to the water in a couple
dozen countries around the world. Why have others decided they
don't want it in there?
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Well, one is awareness, Not everyone truly understands the benefits
of fluoride. And also there is conflicting research to some
extent when we consider, you know, what fluoride, we really do,
what concentrations are optimal for fluoride. And because of that,
and because of all the body of evidence in the
(04:59):
study that show different things. Quite frankly, some countries have
been reluctant to add fluoride in water.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Now you mentioned early on that in the right amounts
it's very helpful. If it's too much, it is a problem.
And this is the study that RFK and others have
been pointing to. It says, you know, this can have
negative effects on people. But the study looked at it
at like twice the amount that you're supposed to have
in the water supply. What can you tell us, just
(05:28):
as a as a non part as an expert on
this about the potential negative effects of fluorid if it's
too much.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Yeah, and that's exactly what you said, is exactly right, Jeremy.
I mean, if you have certain studies, and I think
what RFK is talking about. He looked at a study
that was published by the National Toxicology Program which showed
that if you have fluoride in certain amounts, so if
it's more than one point five milligrams per liter, then
(05:55):
that can result with modern confidence of patients to have
lower IQ levels, shouldn't have lower IQ levels. So that's
at one point five to two milligrams per leader, that's
the amount of concentration in fluorid that is potentially problematic.
So with modern confidence, not with great confidence, but with
moderate confidence. We also know, and it's a fact you
(06:16):
know in science, that too much fluoride can cause other issues.
So for example, when concentrations are at about two milligrams
per liter, it can result in something called dental flurosis,
which means that you can get discoloration or the teeth.
You can start to get white flex in your teeth,
you can get brown discoloration, and yes, that is treatable.
Dentists can do certain procedures to remove that. But that
(06:39):
is a major problem. And then at even higher concentrations
like four milligrams per leader and even up to ten
milligrams per leader according to some studies, you can get
something called skeletal fluorosis, which is when you start to
have you know, bony deformities. You can get arthritis, joint stiffness,
increased risk for fractures, and that may not be reversible.
So that's an important concition. You talked about some of
(07:00):
the other countries. You know, some countries have much higher
concentrations of fluoride than ours. You know, we have ours
is set at zero point seven milligrams per leater, which
you know is you know, much lower than the threshold
that there are problems with.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
But is there any evidence that any of those things
have happened just in the normal course of business in
the US with the amount of fluoride that we're putting
in the water supply.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
No, there's not, honestly, you know, because we regulate the
water supply very well and very effectively. You know, we
regulated at a concentration of zero point seven milligrams per leader.
That's what public health agencies have determined to be a
healthy and safe concentration. And you know, there have been
decades of research that show that at this low concentration
(07:47):
we don't have negative health effects. And in fact, it's
extremely productive and successful at decreasing the risk of tooth decay,
decreasing the risk of cavities, and it saves us billions
of dollars with respect to dental procedures dental health visits.
So there has not been evidence to show that at
the concentnations that currently exist that it can have negative
(08:09):
health effects. And you know, we are not seeing these
or there haven't been studies that really show that, oh
there is a direct causation with how much floorid therea
is in water currently and low IQs or mental acuity.
There are no studies that currently show that currently that
I'm aware of, you know, and I don't believe they
exist well.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And why is tooth decay and the effects of tooth
decay such a problem that we've decided to do this,
Like we're not adding in something into the water supply
that would help us with heart disease, which is also
very expensive, or cancer or things like that. Why tooth
decay do you think gets this status as something that
we across the country in locality after locality have decided,
(08:50):
let's put the floor oud in the water. Well.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
It's an interesting question, Jeremy, and I think that it's
an easy fix, right, It's an easy way to manage
a major public health problem and have a major impact.
I mean, you know, there have been studies that show
that for every one dollar that's invested in fluoride, you're
saving thirty eight dollars in dental procedures. I mean, that's
a big deal when you consider how many you know,
(09:14):
cavities that you're going to avoid. And also it's important
because it promotes health equity. And what I mean by
that is that there are a lot of communities in
America that otherwise don't have access to fluoride. And what
I mean by that is that there's rural areas where
they don't have access to going to a dentist. There
are people that can't believe it or not, that can't
afford toothpaste. I mean, me and you we have the
luxury to you know, wake up every morning, you know,
(09:36):
brush our teeth, and we don't think twice about it.
But there are people that literally don't, and when they're
able to have fluoridated water, that sort of acts as
a protection for them from tooth tocase. So it's a
very easy fix, and it's a very cost effective approach
for you know, affecting a major public health issue. And
you know, some people have hailed this as, you know,
one of the top ten public health breakthroughs in our century.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
You know, I just on that point. I remember after college,
I was moving around a bunch for a few years
at different jobs, and I didn't get a dentist after
college for a few years. And when I finally did
go to the dentist in New York City, I had
three cavities. He filled one of them, filled another, and
then he started to fill the third one, and he said,
this is so deep that you're going to have to
(10:21):
get a root canal right now. He goes, I can
either do it myself or I can anesthetize you. And
you're going to walk over to fifty seventh Street and
there's a place that all they do is root canals.
And I had to go get a root canal. And
I never ever neglected going to the dentist again. I
go every six months for that checkout because it does matter.
It causes you wait, it causes problems.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
It absolutely does.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
You know, I've been I've been pretty good, going every
six months, but you know the times that I slip,
I pay the price, and you know, I totally feel you.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
We'll stay with us because we're going to talk about
how some states have already started to roll back the
use of fluoride in water supplies. One thing Trump did
with doctor omer Awan.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Welcome back to one thing Trump did exclusively on the
Middle podcast feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This episode, we're talking
about fluoride in our drinking water and efforts by the
Trump administration to remove it or at least stop adding it.
I'm joined by public health expert doctor omer Awan. So
doctor Awan, Utah has just banned fluoride in drinking water.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
There.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Republican governor their Spencer Cox, Florida has done it too.
That's Ron DeSantis, also a Republican. What do you think
of that these states that are moving forward not just
saying we're not recommending it, but actually banning it.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
I think it's going to have devastating consequences. Jeremy, I
really do I think that we need fluoride to prevent cavities.
There are many individuals who don't have access to toothpaste,
they don't have access to fluoride, and it's going to
call lost Florida.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
And you talk a lot of money, believe me.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
I mean maybe not now, but in ten years or
so you're going to start to see that they're going
to be spending on a numerous amount of money treating
these cavities. It is really a cost effective plan to
have a small amount or small consentration of Florida and water,
as exists in the majority of.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
The United States. So the evidence really isn't there.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
You know, we want to make decisions based on evidence
and evidence based principles, and you know, the evidence shows
that at point seven milligrants per lead or less, the
benefits greatly outweigh the risks for floride.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
It does show, though, that this movement goes well beyond
RFK Junior, that there's something going on out in the
world that is making it politically reasonable for politicians, at
least on the Republican side, to say, let's get rid
of floride. This will be a popular thing for me
to do. What do you think that's about.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
It goes deeper than science. Jeremy I mean this is
we're talking about politicization of science and healthcare. You know,
the same is happening with vaccines, right I mean, we're
starting to see that people don't want to get vaccines,
even though the science shows and proves that vaccines decrease
the risk of death, hospitalization, severe illness. But people are concerned.
(13:15):
And you started to see this during the COVID nineteen pandemic.
When you know, vaccines are politicized depending on what you
know party you were a republicanor Democrat, they promoted vaccines
are dissuade vaccines, and then people started to get very
skeptical of them. And then when you start to have
a lot of people promoting things on social media, a
lot of influencers that are going against it, it gives
people pause and it gives people a fear to do
(13:38):
these things. And I think the same is happening here
with fluoride and water. When you have someone of the
caliber of RFK, I mean, he's, as you said, the
most influential person in health right now, he's the most
powerful person certainly in health. If he is, you know,
speaking out against it, I mean people are going to
listen to me. He has a good following, right. I mean,
the Maha movement is a very big movement here in America.
(13:58):
I mean there are there's like Maha moms that like
swear by him and do whatever he says, right, So
you know he's going to have a following in it's
going to cause consequences. But I think it's because of politicization, misinformation.
All these things sort of contribute to, you know, some
of these movements that we're seeing.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Is there anything that you can do to prevent that,
people like you can do to prevent that from taking hold?
I mean, are are there is there a need for influencers.
Is there a need for you know, young people who
are out there talking about how great fluoride is on
short YouTube clips and TikTok videos.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
I mean, that's been my mission, Jeremy. I mean, that's
what I do.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
I Mean, the reason why I write for Forbes is
to prevent and curb misinformation. The reason why I have
a YouTube channel where I'm posting videos is to curb miservation.
The reason why I like to come on the media
on you know, CNN or MSNBC News Nation, whatever it
may be, is to educate the public about these important
things because I feel that there are i mean, even
my friends in my circle of friends, there are people.
(14:56):
There are people that say they're not getting vaccines. They're
not gonna get vaccine. I'm talking about my close friends
who have this feeling. I mean, it's not just we
think about it and we're like, oh, there's these anti
vaxxers who live, you know, in no man's land in America.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
That's not true.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
I mean this is pervasive even in our communities, even
amongst our friends. So there is a lot of misinformation
out there. I have made it somewhat my calling to
some extent, I think other physicians and other people who
understand science, understand public health, need to speak out, and
they have to be very transparent about what the evidence
(15:30):
show is kind of in a nonpartisan way, as you
alluded to at the beginning of this show.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Are there other ways to protect our oral health in
the way that fluoride does.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Well.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
You can watch your diet obviously. You know certain foods
if you avoid you know, acid type foods that promote
bacteria in your you know, teeth that can then break
down foods. You know, soda can certainly have that effect
on you. Certain other foods and drink can have that
effect on you. But it's just such an easy fix,
(16:03):
and that's why it's been recommended. And it doesn't you know,
even if you eat all these things or drink all
these things. You know, it adds sort of an extra
layer of protection, and it's very easy to do and
it's very easy to implement, and that's why a lot
of lawmakers and policymakers and health professionals have been advocates for,
you know, low concentrations of fluoride and water.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
For somebody that's listening to this right now in the
state of Utah, or in the state of Florida or
in another state where they're thinking about banning fluoride and water,
is there anything that they can do themselves to try
to make up or if they say, I actually want
fluoride in my water for my kids, for myself, but
I don't want to leave where I live to get.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
It, Well, make sure you brush your teeth twice a day.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
That's the first thing that I would say, you know,
because toothpaste does have fluoride and that can be sufficient
potentially to decrease your risk of cavities. If you're flossing
and you're maintaining good oral health and oral hygiene. I
think all of those things will help mitigate the deletrious
effects or the negative effects of you know, not having
Florida or to compensate for that.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
But that's what you have to do.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
And to make sure that you visit your dentist, you know,
to get regular dental cleanings, you know, every six months.
I think those things will really help. But again we're
talking about access. I mean, people like myself and you
have the luxury of going to a dentist every you know,
six months. Not everyone does, and certainly not everyone in
Utah and not everyone in Florida will be able to
do that.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, let's say hypothetically that a national ban on fluoride
is next. Then what do you how do you see
that playing out in this country? Just a lot more
money spent on oral care and health issues in the
next ten years.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
It will be devastating, Jeremy, It's going to be devastating
if that happens. And quite frankly, I fear that that's
where we're heading. You know, two states have already done it.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
RFK has been very I mean he tweeted that it
was gonna be the first thing that he did. I mean,
you know, remember in November when he was you know,
when President Trump won and you know, RK was being
picked to be the secretary of the AHHS. It was
literally one of the first things that he tweeted that
he's going to take fluoride out of public water system.
So I think this is part of his agenda, as
(18:13):
part of what he really wants to do and what
he really wants to see happen. So I think we
are heading that way, and we have to find creative solutions.
We have defined ways to think outside the box potentially
to you know, decrease two decay that is going to
invariably happen. We define creative and innovative ways to help
(18:33):
underserve populations so that they're not feeling the brunt of this,
because they will feel the brunt of this. I mean,
this is this is going to be a problem of
you know, low income individuals, minorities, people living in areas
that have low access. It may not affect you know,
me or you, but it's going to affect a lot
of Americans that don't have the resources.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
So it's going to be a problem.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
So you mentioned vaccines, and obviously we're talking about fluoride.
Is there something else that you're thinking about that could
be next in this country that we It's something that
we've just sort of taken for granted for all these
years and decades that now the Trump administration may come
after and could have really big effects for Americans when
it comes to health.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Not that I'm aware of. I think his focus has
really been on Listen. I mean, some of the things
that he's doing is great. You know, I'm not here
to take sides, you know, one way or the other.
I think RFK and his stance on you know, food
additives and you know, food coloration, I think that's absolutely
wonderful that he's he's going after that, and you know,
he's trying to make our foods a little bit more healthy,
(19:32):
and that's great. You know, that's based off of evidence.
There are clear studies that show that they have negative effects.
But you know, a lot of his focus has really
been on vaccines and fluoride, and especially the vaccine part.
You know, we we're talking about fluoride in this episode,
but the vaccine part can have way more detrimental effects
on health. You know, we're talking about disease outbreaks. We're
(19:53):
talking about you know, things like measles and whoping golf
that are already rising, that are going to get worse,
you know when people don't have access to vacs. So
I don't know what's next. Fluoride came out of the blue.
I mean it wasn't something that I expected, you know,
when RFK got you know, put into the second of HHS.
That just sort of came out of he tweeted about
and I was.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Like, Wow, I was shocked.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
I was like, WHOA, Like, he really wants to get
rid of this, you know, because there wasn't a lot
of rhetoric about it that was very visible. I mean,
people have been debating fluoride for some time, but it
didn't really you know, have a lot of visibility in
the media and public discourse until you know, he came in.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
That is doctor omer Awan, who's a senior contributor for
Forbes and a practicing radiologist position in Baltimore. Doctor Rawan,
thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Thanks for having me, Jeremy, and thanks to you for
listening to One thing Trump did. It was produced by
Harrison Patino. Our next middle episode is coming to your
podcast feed later this week. We're going to be talking
about the philosophical middle and what it means to take
the middle way in these highly polarized times. Please write
a review if you liked this podcast. Our theme music
was composed by Noah Haidu. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to
(20:59):
you soon still
Welcome to One Thing Trump Did, available exclusively on The
Middle podcast Speed. I'm Jeremy Hobson, and as you know
if you're a regular listener, each week on this show,
we picked just one thing coming out of the Trump
White House to focus on and break it down in
a nonpartisan way with someone who knows what they're talking about.
And we had our pick of the litter this week.
But we have decided we're going to be taking sort
(00:35):
of a trip to the dentist's office because our one
thing is the effort by Trump's Health and Human Services
Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Junior, to discourage localities from adding
fluoride to drinking water, which has been done for decades
across this country. Kennedy believes fluoride is linked to negative
health effects and has ordered the Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention to stop recommending that fluoride be added to
(00:58):
drinking water. Here are some of his thoughts on that
from an interview with The New York Sun last year.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
I think fluoride is a poison. If a fluoride truck
crashes on the highway, they have to clear the highway
for miles around, and people come in and dive ocksuits
and respirators and gloves. It's a toxic byproduct of the
certain chemical process and oil industry process. And for many
(01:25):
years those industries it was costing them thousands of dollars
per drum to get rid of them. And then they
came up with the idea, why don't we put it
in the water supply.
Speaker 1 (01:33):
Well, RFK Junior is now perhaps the most powerful person
in healthcare as the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
So let's talk about this with doctor omer Awan, who's
a senior contributor for Forbes and practicing radiologist physician in Baltimore,
writes about issues in healthcare and public health.
Speaker 3 (01:48):
Doctor Awan, welcome, Thanks, thanks so much for having me.
Jeremy Well, and.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Let's just first of all, start with the basics. What
is fluoride.
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Well, fluoride is a mineral, and it's a mineral that's
been used for all sorts of things. We have fluoride
in some of our food, so things like seafood, grapes, raisins,
for example. All these things have florida and we do
consume a certain amount of fluoride in our natural diet.
How it comes in with aural health is that a
(02:18):
lot of toothpastes carry fluoride and we brush your teeth,
you're adding fluoride because that helps stabilize some of your teeth.
It prevents acid from kind of destroying your teeth and
resulting in tooth to k So it's become an important
topic now with Secretary Kennedy because he's talking about floridae
and how that could potentially impact health and public health.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
And it actually appears naturally in some water supplies, right.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
It does appear in some water supplies, but there has
been a move to add fluoride in certain water supplies. So,
you know, the United States introduce fluoride in nineteen forty five,
and then they started to recommend it. The United States
Service recommended in nineteen sixty two because because they believe
that fluoride can't significantly reduce the risk of cavities and
(03:04):
tooth decay essentially, and it in low concentrations in low concentration,
So that's how it's sort of started. And it's been
in the public water supply for decades now. Obviously, you
know for over you know, fifty seventy years.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Is there anything else that you can think of that.
We do that with that, we add something to the
water supply to help us out with the various health issues.
Speaker 4 (03:25):
Not that I'm aware of. We certainly do it for
certain foods, preservatives and things like that, but in terms
of water, you know, different, water is different. You know,
they have certain minerals, certain chemicals in them. But fluoride
really does have certain health benefits when used appropriately.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
And why did the US and the other countries, because
there are a number of other countries around the world,
why did they start adding it in the first place.
Somebody came up with this idea, Oh, this is actually useful.
Let's just start putting it into the water supply. I'm
sure nobody will be angry.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
Well, it's cost active, Jeremy, because it'll prevent cavities, and
we're talking about billions of dollars that can be saved from,
you know, dental procedures, visits to the dental office. You know,
according to the American Dental Association, fluoride reduces the risk
of tooth decay and cavities by twenty five percent. And
that's true for both children and adults. It's not just
a pediatric entity here. We're talking about even for people
(04:22):
like myself and you. You know, it really has a
profound effect when use appropriate, when used in certain concentrations
in water.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
So it's only added to the water in a couple
dozen countries around the world. Why have others decided they
don't want it in there?
Speaker 4 (04:38):
Well, one is awareness, Not everyone truly understands the benefits
of fluoride. And also there is conflicting research to some
extent when we consider, you know, what fluoride, we really do,
what concentrations are optimal for fluoride. And because of that,
and because of all the body of evidence in the
(04:59):
study that show different things. Quite frankly, some countries have
been reluctant to add fluoride in water.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Now you mentioned early on that in the right amounts
it's very helpful. If it's too much, it is a problem.
And this is the study that RFK and others have
been pointing to. It says, you know, this can have
negative effects on people. But the study looked at it
at like twice the amount that you're supposed to have
in the water supply. What can you tell us, just
(05:28):
as a as a non part as an expert on
this about the potential negative effects of fluorid if it's
too much.
Speaker 4 (05:34):
Yeah, and that's exactly what you said, is exactly right, Jeremy.
I mean, if you have certain studies, and I think
what RFK is talking about. He looked at a study
that was published by the National Toxicology Program which showed
that if you have fluoride in certain amounts, so if
it's more than one point five milligrams per liter, then
(05:55):
that can result with modern confidence of patients to have
lower IQ levels, shouldn't have lower IQ levels. So that's
at one point five to two milligrams per leader, that's
the amount of concentration in fluorid that is potentially problematic.
So with modern confidence, not with great confidence, but with
moderate confidence. We also know, and it's a fact you
(06:16):
know in science, that too much fluoride can cause other issues.
So for example, when concentrations are at about two milligrams
per liter, it can result in something called dental flurosis,
which means that you can get discoloration or the teeth.
You can start to get white flex in your teeth,
you can get brown discoloration, and yes, that is treatable.
Dentists can do certain procedures to remove that. But that
(06:39):
is a major problem. And then at even higher concentrations
like four milligrams per leader and even up to ten
milligrams per leader according to some studies, you can get
something called skeletal fluorosis, which is when you start to
have you know, bony deformities. You can get arthritis, joint stiffness,
increased risk for fractures, and that may not be reversible.
So that's an important concition. You talked about some of
(07:00):
the other countries. You know, some countries have much higher
concentrations of fluoride than ours. You know, we have ours
is set at zero point seven milligrams per leater, which
you know is you know, much lower than the threshold
that there are problems with.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
But is there any evidence that any of those things
have happened just in the normal course of business in
the US with the amount of fluoride that we're putting
in the water supply.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
No, there's not, honestly, you know, because we regulate the
water supply very well and very effectively. You know, we
regulated at a concentration of zero point seven milligrams per leader.
That's what public health agencies have determined to be a
healthy and safe concentration. And you know, there have been
decades of research that show that at this low concentration
(07:47):
we don't have negative health effects. And in fact, it's
extremely productive and successful at decreasing the risk of tooth decay,
decreasing the risk of cavities, and it saves us billions
of dollars with respect to dental procedures dental health visits.
So there has not been evidence to show that at
the concentnations that currently exist that it can have negative
(08:09):
health effects. And you know, we are not seeing these
or there haven't been studies that really show that, oh
there is a direct causation with how much floorid therea
is in water currently and low IQs or mental acuity.
There are no studies that currently show that currently that
I'm aware of, you know, and I don't believe they
exist well.
Speaker 1 (08:29):
And why is tooth decay and the effects of tooth
decay such a problem that we've decided to do this,
Like we're not adding in something into the water supply
that would help us with heart disease, which is also
very expensive, or cancer or things like that. Why tooth
decay do you think gets this status as something that
we across the country in locality after locality have decided,
(08:50):
let's put the floor oud in the water. Well.
Speaker 4 (08:52):
It's an interesting question, Jeremy, and I think that it's
an easy fix, right, It's an easy way to manage
a major public health problem and have a major impact.
I mean, you know, there have been studies that show
that for every one dollar that's invested in fluoride, you're
saving thirty eight dollars in dental procedures. I mean, that's
a big deal when you consider how many you know,
(09:14):
cavities that you're going to avoid. And also it's important
because it promotes health equity. And what I mean by
that is that there are a lot of communities in
America that otherwise don't have access to fluoride. And what
I mean by that is that there's rural areas where
they don't have access to going to a dentist. There
are people that can't believe it or not, that can't
afford toothpaste. I mean, me and you we have the
luxury to you know, wake up every morning, you know,
(09:36):
brush our teeth, and we don't think twice about it.
But there are people that literally don't, and when they're
able to have fluoridated water, that sort of acts as
a protection for them from tooth tocase. So it's a
very easy fix, and it's a very cost effective approach
for you know, affecting a major public health issue. And
you know, some people have hailed this as, you know,
one of the top ten public health breakthroughs in our century.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
You know, I just on that point. I remember after college,
I was moving around a bunch for a few years
at different jobs, and I didn't get a dentist after
college for a few years. And when I finally did
go to the dentist in New York City, I had
three cavities. He filled one of them, filled another, and
then he started to fill the third one, and he said,
this is so deep that you're going to have to
(10:21):
get a root canal right now. He goes, I can
either do it myself or I can anesthetize you. And
you're going to walk over to fifty seventh Street and
there's a place that all they do is root canals.
And I had to go get a root canal. And
I never ever neglected going to the dentist again. I
go every six months for that checkout because it does matter.
It causes you wait, it causes problems.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
It absolutely does.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
You know, I've been I've been pretty good, going every
six months, but you know the times that I slip,
I pay the price, and you know, I totally feel you.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
We'll stay with us because we're going to talk about
how some states have already started to roll back the
use of fluoride in water supplies. One thing Trump did
with doctor omer Awan.
Speaker 3 (11:01):
We'll be right back.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Welcome back to one thing Trump did exclusively on the
Middle podcast feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This episode, we're talking
about fluoride in our drinking water and efforts by the
Trump administration to remove it or at least stop adding it.
I'm joined by public health expert doctor omer Awan. So
doctor Awan, Utah has just banned fluoride in drinking water.
Speaker 3 (11:34):
There.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Republican governor their Spencer Cox, Florida has done it too.
That's Ron DeSantis, also a Republican. What do you think
of that these states that are moving forward not just
saying we're not recommending it, but actually banning it.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
I think it's going to have devastating consequences. Jeremy, I
really do I think that we need fluoride to prevent cavities.
There are many individuals who don't have access to toothpaste,
they don't have access to fluoride, and it's going to
call lost Florida.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
And you talk a lot of money, believe me.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
I mean maybe not now, but in ten years or
so you're going to start to see that they're going
to be spending on a numerous amount of money treating
these cavities. It is really a cost effective plan to
have a small amount or small consentration of Florida and water,
as exists in the majority of.
Speaker 3 (12:18):
The United States. So the evidence really isn't there.
Speaker 4 (12:22):
You know, we want to make decisions based on evidence
and evidence based principles, and you know, the evidence shows
that at point seven milligrants per lead or less, the
benefits greatly outweigh the risks for floride.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
It does show, though, that this movement goes well beyond
RFK Junior, that there's something going on out in the
world that is making it politically reasonable for politicians, at
least on the Republican side, to say, let's get rid
of floride. This will be a popular thing for me
to do. What do you think that's about.
Speaker 4 (12:55):
It goes deeper than science. Jeremy I mean this is
we're talking about politicization of science and healthcare. You know,
the same is happening with vaccines, right I mean, we're
starting to see that people don't want to get vaccines,
even though the science shows and proves that vaccines decrease
the risk of death, hospitalization, severe illness. But people are concerned.
(13:15):
And you started to see this during the COVID nineteen pandemic.
When you know, vaccines are politicized depending on what you
know party you were a republicanor Democrat, they promoted vaccines
are dissuade vaccines, and then people started to get very
skeptical of them. And then when you start to have
a lot of people promoting things on social media, a
lot of influencers that are going against it, it gives
people pause and it gives people a fear to do
(13:38):
these things. And I think the same is happening here
with fluoride and water. When you have someone of the
caliber of RFK, I mean, he's, as you said, the
most influential person in health right now, he's the most
powerful person certainly in health. If he is, you know,
speaking out against it, I mean people are going to
listen to me. He has a good following, right. I mean,
the Maha movement is a very big movement here in America.
(13:58):
I mean there are there's like Maha moms that like
swear by him and do whatever he says, right, So
you know he's going to have a following in it's
going to cause consequences. But I think it's because of politicization, misinformation.
All these things sort of contribute to, you know, some
of these movements that we're seeing.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
Is there anything that you can do to prevent that,
people like you can do to prevent that from taking hold?
I mean, are are there is there a need for influencers.
Is there a need for you know, young people who
are out there talking about how great fluoride is on
short YouTube clips and TikTok videos.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
I mean, that's been my mission, Jeremy. I mean, that's
what I do.
Speaker 4 (14:34):
I Mean, the reason why I write for Forbes is
to prevent and curb misinformation. The reason why I have
a YouTube channel where I'm posting videos is to curb miservation.
The reason why I like to come on the media
on you know, CNN or MSNBC News Nation, whatever it
may be, is to educate the public about these important
things because I feel that there are i mean, even
my friends in my circle of friends, there are people.
(14:56):
There are people that say they're not getting vaccines. They're
not gonna get vaccine. I'm talking about my close friends
who have this feeling. I mean, it's not just we
think about it and we're like, oh, there's these anti
vaxxers who live, you know, in no man's land in America.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
That's not true.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
I mean this is pervasive even in our communities, even
amongst our friends. So there is a lot of misinformation
out there. I have made it somewhat my calling to
some extent, I think other physicians and other people who
understand science, understand public health, need to speak out, and
they have to be very transparent about what the evidence
(15:30):
show is kind of in a nonpartisan way, as you
alluded to at the beginning of this show.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Are there other ways to protect our oral health in
the way that fluoride does.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
Well.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
You can watch your diet obviously. You know certain foods
if you avoid you know, acid type foods that promote
bacteria in your you know, teeth that can then break
down foods. You know, soda can certainly have that effect
on you. Certain other foods and drink can have that
effect on you. But it's just such an easy fix,
(16:03):
and that's why it's been recommended. And it doesn't you know,
even if you eat all these things or drink all
these things. You know, it adds sort of an extra
layer of protection, and it's very easy to do and
it's very easy to implement, and that's why a lot
of lawmakers and policymakers and health professionals have been advocates for,
you know, low concentrations of fluoride and water.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
For somebody that's listening to this right now in the
state of Utah, or in the state of Florida or
in another state where they're thinking about banning fluoride and water,
is there anything that they can do themselves to try
to make up or if they say, I actually want
fluoride in my water for my kids, for myself, but
I don't want to leave where I live to get.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
It, Well, make sure you brush your teeth twice a day.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
That's the first thing that I would say, you know,
because toothpaste does have fluoride and that can be sufficient
potentially to decrease your risk of cavities. If you're flossing
and you're maintaining good oral health and oral hygiene. I
think all of those things will help mitigate the deletrious
effects or the negative effects of you know, not having
Florida or to compensate for that.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
But that's what you have to do.
Speaker 4 (17:06):
And to make sure that you visit your dentist, you know,
to get regular dental cleanings, you know, every six months.
I think those things will really help. But again we're
talking about access. I mean, people like myself and you
have the luxury of going to a dentist every you know,
six months. Not everyone does, and certainly not everyone in
Utah and not everyone in Florida will be able to
do that.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
Yeah, let's say hypothetically that a national ban on fluoride
is next. Then what do you how do you see
that playing out in this country? Just a lot more
money spent on oral care and health issues in the
next ten years.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
It will be devastating, Jeremy, It's going to be devastating
if that happens. And quite frankly, I fear that that's
where we're heading. You know, two states have already done it.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
RFK has been very I mean he tweeted that it
was gonna be the first thing that he did. I mean,
you know, remember in November when he was you know,
when President Trump won and you know, RK was being
picked to be the secretary of the AHHS. It was
literally one of the first things that he tweeted that
he's going to take fluoride out of public water system.
So I think this is part of his agenda, as
(18:13):
part of what he really wants to do and what
he really wants to see happen. So I think we
are heading that way, and we have to find creative solutions.
We have defined ways to think outside the box potentially
to you know, decrease two decay that is going to
invariably happen. We define creative and innovative ways to help
(18:33):
underserve populations so that they're not feeling the brunt of this,
because they will feel the brunt of this. I mean,
this is this is going to be a problem of
you know, low income individuals, minorities, people living in areas
that have low access. It may not affect you know,
me or you, but it's going to affect a lot
of Americans that don't have the resources.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
So it's going to be a problem.
Speaker 1 (18:53):
So you mentioned vaccines, and obviously we're talking about fluoride.
Is there something else that you're thinking about that could
be next in this country that we It's something that
we've just sort of taken for granted for all these
years and decades that now the Trump administration may come
after and could have really big effects for Americans when
it comes to health.
Speaker 4 (19:12):
Not that I'm aware of. I think his focus has
really been on Listen. I mean, some of the things
that he's doing is great. You know, I'm not here
to take sides, you know, one way or the other.
I think RFK and his stance on you know, food
additives and you know, food coloration, I think that's absolutely
wonderful that he's he's going after that, and you know,
he's trying to make our foods a little bit more healthy,
(19:32):
and that's great. You know, that's based off of evidence.
There are clear studies that show that they have negative effects.
But you know, a lot of his focus has really
been on vaccines and fluoride, and especially the vaccine part.
You know, we we're talking about fluoride in this episode,
but the vaccine part can have way more detrimental effects
on health. You know, we're talking about disease outbreaks. We're
(19:53):
talking about you know, things like measles and whoping golf
that are already rising, that are going to get worse,
you know when people don't have access to vacs. So
I don't know what's next. Fluoride came out of the blue.
I mean it wasn't something that I expected, you know,
when RFK got you know, put into the second of HHS.
That just sort of came out of he tweeted about
and I was.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Like, Wow, I was shocked.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
I was like, WHOA, Like, he really wants to get
rid of this, you know, because there wasn't a lot
of rhetoric about it that was very visible. I mean,
people have been debating fluoride for some time, but it
didn't really you know, have a lot of visibility in
the media and public discourse until you know, he came in.
Speaker 1 (20:30):
That is doctor omer Awan, who's a senior contributor for
Forbes and a practicing radiologist position in Baltimore. Doctor Rawan,
thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
My pleasure.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Thanks for having me, Jeremy, and thanks to you for
listening to One thing Trump did. It was produced by
Harrison Patino. Our next middle episode is coming to your
podcast feed later this week. We're going to be talking
about the philosophical middle and what it means to take
the middle way in these highly polarized times. Please write
a review if you liked this podcast. Our theme music
was composed by Noah Haidu. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk to
(20:59):
you soon still
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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