July 7, 2025 • 20 mins
In this episode of One Thing Trump Did, we look at President Trump's approach to pardons and commutations so far in his administration, and what this clemency means for criminal justice and the overall pardon process . Jeremy is joined by Washington Post reporter Emily Davies, who covers crime and criminal justice. #Pardon #Pardons #PardonCzar #AliceJohnson #Trump #CriminalJustice #Law #RodBlagojevich #EricAdams #Jan6
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Welcome to One Thing Trump did, available exclusively on the
Middle Podcast Feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson, and each week on
this show, we picked just one thing coming out of
the Trump White House to focus on and break down
in a non partisan way with someone who knows what
they're talking about. And today we're talking about the pardons
and clemency that President Trump is granted in his second term.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
That includes around fifteen hundred people.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Involved in the attack on the US Capitol on January sixth,
but also people like former Illinois Governor Rod Blogoyevitch, convicted
of trying to sell Barack Obama's Senate seat, a couple
of reality TV stars serving time for fraud and tax evasion,
and the founder of the Silk Road dark web marketplace.
By any measure, the President is using the pardon power
in a very different way than his predecessors, including Gerald Ford,
(01:00):
who famously pardoned Richard Nixon in nineteen seventy four to
avoid contentious trials and to put Watergate in the rear
view mirror.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
My conscience tells me clearly and certainly that I cannot
prolong the bad dreams that continue to reopen a chapter
that is closed. My conscience tells me that only I,
as president, have the constitutional power to firmly shot and
(01:32):
seal this book. My conscience tells me it is my
duty not merely to proclaim domestic tranquility, but to use
every means that I have.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
To ensure it.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Joining me now is Emily Davies, a reporter for the
Washington Post has been covering Trump's pardons.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Emily, great to have you on.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
So we can't talk about every part or commutation, but
let's talk about a few.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Tell us about Paul Wallzac and what his deal is.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
Paul Walzac is a Florida businessman who pleaded guilty to
tax crimes, and the president pardoned him after his mother
attended a million dollar dinner in his support and support
of President Trump. So that is one of, as you mentioned,
many people who've received clemency recently.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
And were you able to connect the fact that the
mother going to the dinner was the reason why Paul
Walzac was given the pardon.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Yeah, that's a great question, is sort of the central one.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
Can we prove causality that there was ex favor done
and now we see a presidential action as a result
I personally have not been able to prove that. And
that sort of gets to another part of this whole
reporting path, and that politics has always been, in many
ways a game of relationships, and so when does that cross.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
The line and would there have been anything illegal about it?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
If if it was really just like quid pro quo,
the mother comes to the fundraiser and then Trump gives
the pardon to the sun.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Yes, I mean, I want to say, I'm not a lawyer,
and I cover the White House, not the Department of Justice,
so I don't want to speak out of turn, but
I can't imagine.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Like a legal system that would love a qui pro
quot like that.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Right?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
What about Julie and Todd christ Lee, I must say
I'm not a reality TV person. I don't really like
watching those shows, but tell us about their situation, so they.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Are, as you said, they are reality stars.
Speaker 5 (03:28):
I also am not familiar with them from TV, but
know a lot of people are.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
And they were only a fraction through.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Their prison sentences for tax evasion and defrauding banks when
they received a pardon.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
I've actually been.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
Told by a few people that that pardon looks really corrupt,
but in some ways maybe was more complicated. I've not
been able to get into the fine print there, but
some folks who who have been reliable in the past
said that, so I think that's interesting and worth pointing out.
Their case was brought to the attention of the Pardons
are when their daughter, Savannah Chrisley, who spoke at the
(04:02):
Republican National Convention in support of President Trump, approached her
and convinced her that it was a good case to
take up.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
The pardons are as Alice Johnson, who Trump actually pardoned
in his first term and then named her to sort
of help him decide who's going to get a pardon
and who's not going to get a pardon. Although he
doesn't always take her advice, it.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Sounds like Alice Johnson is a really important person to
understand when we're thinking about pardons and how they're operating
right now. Essentially, the pardon process used to be funneled
much more through the Department of Justice, and what the
Trump administration has done is really consolidate its authority in
the White House, and a lot of that authority is
centered around Alice, who believes very much in clemency. As
(04:46):
somebody who has received a second chance herself and has
opinions that I think often align with the presidents that
sometimes don't, and she is widely respected, it seems, by
a lot of criminal justice folks on both sides of
the aisle.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
What about one more that you talk about in your reporting,
and that's Scott Jenkins.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
So he is a former Virginia sheriff who was convicted
of federal bribery and fraud charges and his case was
really brought to the Trump administration by Ed Martin, who
is now in the Department of Justice, really operating in
relation to Alice Johnson to get these pardons to the
president's desk.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
So you know what our reporting.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Found is there is a number of ways to get
the president's attention. Alice Johnson, from my reporting, seems like
the most effective approach. She has a high rate of
people coming to her attention and getting the president's ear
on them.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
But Ed Martin certainly is another figure with some influence.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Then there are the people that we can't have this
conversation without talking about, which is the fifteen hundred or
so people who were charged and or convicted for what
they did on January sixth, and they got a blanket
pardon or clemency right on the beginning of the term.
Speaker 5 (06:03):
You can understand these pardons by looking at them both
separately and together, but looking at them in categories is
quite revealing and something that really helped me when I
was trying to report on this and understand it. The
January sixth pardons are like pretty clearly politically motivated. I mean,
I don't know how to talk around that. I mean,
that feels very clear. The president feels very wronged by
(06:27):
the justice system, as he says very openly, and I
think in some ways these January six folks are an
extension of that feeling for him.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
In that case, they wouldn't even need somebody to have
some connection to Alice Johnson or a connection to him.
He wanted to do that because he you know, it
gets to his narrative that he won the twenty twenty election,
which of course we know he did not right, and.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
That the Justice Department has been corrupted and weaponized against
people like him who have conservative beliefs, who think differently
about the country.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
There are other examples of that too. There are a
lot of parts that flew a little more under the radar.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
For folks convicted on charges to do with protesting abortion,
And if you look closely at those people, some of
them are Democrats. Some of them have actually been outspoken
against President Trump.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
So it's not.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Like you look through the list of every person pardoned
and they're either connected to the President or Alice Johnson
or Ed Martin. And I think that's important to say
because a lot of the high profile.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Pardons are that way.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
But there is no question that there is a much
more overt and clear connection off between people who have
given money or loyalty to the president and his staff
and have now received real life changing benefits as a result.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
And one Democrat that I mentioned right at the top
is rod Balgoyev. It's the former governor of Illinois who
got a pardon from the President and probably doesn't agree
with them on most things politically, right.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
I mean, I think that feeling of political persecution and
the Justice Department being at fault for that really underlies
a lot of this.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So when you look at pardons overall so far, it
seems like a lot, but it's actually not the most
of any president. There were a number of presidents a
long time ago, around World War Two that were doing
thousands of pardons.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
What is so unusual about what Trump is doing?
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Yeah, I mean I actually when I was really looking
at the numbers have past presidents was also I mean
I was sort of surprised by that, by the way
that I feel like folks are talking about his pardons
right now. I mean, I love covering pardons, and I
love covering the Justice Department and its connection to the
White House in part because it's so revealing, because it's real,
like real individual people, and the choices there can be
(08:43):
so reflective of a president's worldview and an administration's worldview.
And I think here President Trump's pardons like really really
underscore that he does not care about perceptions of corruption.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
He does not care about.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
You know, almost like spreading the wealth equitably among people
who get his ear. Like he likes people who are
loyal to him. He likes people who are not afraid
to be loyal to him. He puts his trust in
people like Alice Johnson and other folks who've really want
him over to make decisions for him or with his consent.
And I think just sort of the blowback that he's
(09:20):
gotten for these pardons, and yet I've seen no hesitation
at all is very you know, indicative of the ways
this president is different. And another important point on this
is most other presidents do controversial pardons on their way
out of the White House, right, and this is really
early in his term, and he's sort of able to
just push through any sort of politicization that might be
(09:44):
a problem for.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Him and just keep going.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
Well.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
It also does something else that he clearly likes, and
we can tell by the tariffs, which is it's something
that he can do without anybody else. He doesn't need Congress.
He's got the power to pardon people whenever he wants, right.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
And I talk to a lot of professor and experts,
some of them.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
Who lean far more liberal, and they said to me, like, look,
I'm going to start by telling you nothing here is
outside of his jurisdiction, Like he has control over who
he pardons. Like that's the way it goes. And so
here we are.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
What does he get out of it?
Speaker 5 (10:19):
You know, that's a great question and is one I'm
trying to figure out. I mean, I think, as you
implied earlier, there's a question of if he's getting money
or people close to him are getting money. I have
not proven that I don't feel comfortable saying that's the case,
but there are signs that suggest that is a line
of inquiry that I will keep pursuing.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
So that's answer A. Answer B is that Trump is.
Speaker 5 (10:44):
Really a relationship oriented president and he has learned to
throughout his career keep the people close who have been
loyal to him, and he is doing that in certain
ways with some of these folks, also our vehicle that
allow him to make a political point. The president and
his administration are very media savvy, and pardoning all of
(11:07):
the January six ers at once, for example, calls attention
yet again to the way that that event has played
out in American history, how those demonstrators or rioters, depending
on how you see them, behaved, how they were treated
by the justice system. He's putting human faces to that,
(11:28):
and he's again forcing the conversation and sort of flexing
his power.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
And we should note that there are at least a
few of those people who are pardoned who have already
been re arrested for other things after that, gotten into
trouble with the lot.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Yes, very much so.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
And there are people who are part into assaulted police officers,
no question about it, And I think even quietly some
folks around the president weren't so sure about that one.
I mean, that's the Republican Party traditionally has really like
backed the blue and that is not a simple situation
or decision in that way. And frankly, people that the
(12:03):
president part in his first term have reoffended and he's
not really had to respond to that. Like it's not
hurt him politically, it's not really been a problem for him.
So I think that if he experiences if he makes
a decision that he likes and he can get away
with it, he's going to do it again well.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And that, by the way, is one of the reasons
why we do this podcast. Because there are so many
things happening, it's very easy for the whole pardon situation
to just get swept right under when we're talking about
Iran or we're talking about tariffs or anything else, and.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
It's nice to take a moment to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
In a minute, we are going to hear about some
of the criticism that many legal experts have brought up
about these pardons and commutations.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
One thing Trump did with Washington Post reporter Emily Davies
will be right back.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Welcome back to One Thing Trump did exclusively on the
Middle Podcast Feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This episode, we're talking
about the many pardons issued by President Trump. I'm joined
by Washington Post reporter Emily Davies.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
There's one I just want to ask you about that.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
It's not a pardon, but it's the case of New
York City Mayor Eric Adams is kind of close. The
federal corruption case was dropped after Trump came into office.
Do you think that that situation fits into the just
the broad scope of what we're talking about here with pardons.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Yes. I think we've seen over and over again in
various ways so far in this administration that the president
feels deeply that he's been politically persecuted and wants to
make a centerpiece of this administration his unraveling of that system.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
So you see it through the pardons, you see it
in other ways.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
But yeah, I think he's got a big point to
make for himself.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
That he doesn't want politicians to be gone after by
the Justice Department.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Basically, right, and I mean accept Joe Biden and kamlais right.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Right.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
I was thinking about how to I was thinking about
how to answer that question. I mean, I don't think
he likes allegations of bribery or using your professional office
to benefit your personal life. It seems like that category
of accusations that obviously the president and his family have
(14:31):
really whethered that strikes a nerve with him.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Right, So you just spoke a moment ago about January sixth.
One of the things I think that is hard for
people to understand is how someone who says they're all
about law and order and says we've got to deport
everyone who's in the country illegally and then pardons all
these people who assaulted police officers on January six and
they apparently don't have to worry about the law. Or
politicians who had bribery or fraud or other things and
(14:59):
they don't have to worry about it. What kind of
criticism did you get in your reporting? What were people saying,
even though it's not illegal, about why this is a
bad thing that he's pardoning all these people that were
convicted of crimes.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
Basically every legal expert I talked to said is it's
even if what the president is trying to do is
simply consolidate decision making authority and there's no real corruption
and there's not a quick pro quo going on, Like
even if all of that is the case, still a
system that is dependent on so few people like him
(15:34):
and at Martin and the White House Counsel's Office and
Alice Johnson.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Like even that is very vulnerable to.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
Like injustice maybe is the right word, where very few
people have access to that type of relief that is
really profound and a lot of people feel entitled to
a look. And when the process is less formalized and
less in some ways less bureaucratic, there are fewer guarantees
of equality or equity like across the board, and so
(16:05):
that is one big concern and in some ways, like
again I love covering this stuff because the question of
who gets a second chance is like very foundational to
how this country functions, like the criminal justice system and
how people who make mistakes or treated like you know,
dictates like how people experience this country and like experience
(16:27):
right and wrong. And so I think there are sort
of like bigger questions to ask about how his thumb
on the scale in the criminal justice system, like how
that's changing the way this country functions, whether it's you know,
democratic leaders now being arrested for appearing at public events
and disagreeing with the president, Like that is a really
strong statement, or like immigrants, and obviously like the pretty
(16:51):
extreme measures he's gone to there, like the way that
he's using the law is just like entirely representative of
how he wants to change the country.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And you talk about the small number of people around
him that if you get access to that person you
might have a chance of getting a pardon, it sounds
like there's also like an entire cottage industry of lawyers
that has sprung up to help people get in touch
with those.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
People, right, Because the question of how to get close
to the president if you don't know him is very hard,
Like most people can't just show up at mar A
Lago and say hi, and so you need to find
people who can do that. And so these lawyers who
have relationships to him are suddenly really valuable and can
charge a lot a lot of money. Now I will
say again, like I think it's important to acknowledge that
(17:36):
I talk to many lawyers for the story who have
done pro bono work, and no Alice Johnson from Clemency
Spaces and don't fit in that category of attorneys. So
there is certainly a cottage industry now that raises real
questions about access, But there are others who are getting
in in other ways.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
What about on the positive side, I guess if you
look at this and you're a big Trump Republican, are
there legitimate criticisms of the criminal justice system that Trump
is bringing to light through these pardons. Are there people
that you talked to who said, this is so great
that he's pardoning all these people and showing that the
justice system is corrupt.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
One thing Alice Johnson is doing is taking less seriously
the views of prosecutors on cases that initially convicted the
folks who are now up for clemency. So if you
were charged with a crime and convicted of a crime
like fifty years ago, there are a lot of experts
who don't think that the opinion of those prosecutors from
(18:33):
all that time ago, who met you maybe one or
two times, should matter that much. And Alice Johnson is
one of those people. And so instead of really prioritizing
those perspectives as has been done traditionally, she's looking more
toward prison staff who have really interacted a lot with
the people who are eligible for a pardon and can
give more direct insight, and that has been pretty universally lauded.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
So that's one example.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
I mean, I think there's legitimate criticism that the government
is too slow and that these processes take too long,
and part of what Trump has done is just move
faster and broken down layers of bureaucracy by moving a
lot of this process into the White House.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Let me ask you one more thing, Emily, and that
is we talked about tariffs. There was a moment when
Trump was issuing these blanket tariffs when even some Republicans
were in favor of taking away his unilateral tariff power,
which he's been using emergency measures to do. Has anyone
suggested changing the president's pardon power.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
I have not heard that from inside the administration.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Again, I think with the crush of news, this topic
really can fly under the radar. I'm really interested in it.
It's something I hope to keep returning to. So if
anyone is listening, has any thoughts, please find me. I
should be easy to find online.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
That is Emily Davies, who covers the White House for
the Washington Post.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Emily, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Thank you for having me, and.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Thanks to you for listening to one thing Trump did.
It was produced by Harrison Patino. Our next middle episode
will be in your podcast feed later this week. We'll
be asking you whether or not you're worried about America's
standing in the world.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
An all star panel for that one.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
And if you like this podcast, please rate it wherever
you get your podcasts and write a review. Our theme
music was composed by Noah Haidu. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk
to you soon.
Welcome to One Thing Trump did, available exclusively on the
Middle Podcast Feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson, and each week on
this show, we picked just one thing coming out of
the Trump White House to focus on and break down
in a non partisan way with someone who knows what
they're talking about. And today we're talking about the pardons
and clemency that President Trump is granted in his second term.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
That includes around fifteen hundred people.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Involved in the attack on the US Capitol on January sixth,
but also people like former Illinois Governor Rod Blogoyevitch, convicted
of trying to sell Barack Obama's Senate seat, a couple
of reality TV stars serving time for fraud and tax evasion,
and the founder of the Silk Road dark web marketplace.
By any measure, the President is using the pardon power
in a very different way than his predecessors, including Gerald Ford,
(01:00):
who famously pardoned Richard Nixon in nineteen seventy four to
avoid contentious trials and to put Watergate in the rear
view mirror.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
My conscience tells me clearly and certainly that I cannot
prolong the bad dreams that continue to reopen a chapter
that is closed. My conscience tells me that only I,
as president, have the constitutional power to firmly shot and
(01:32):
seal this book. My conscience tells me it is my
duty not merely to proclaim domestic tranquility, but to use
every means that I have.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
To ensure it.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Joining me now is Emily Davies, a reporter for the
Washington Post has been covering Trump's pardons.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Emily, great to have you on.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
So we can't talk about every part or commutation, but
let's talk about a few.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Tell us about Paul Wallzac and what his deal is.
Speaker 5 (02:07):
Paul Walzac is a Florida businessman who pleaded guilty to
tax crimes, and the president pardoned him after his mother
attended a million dollar dinner in his support and support
of President Trump. So that is one of, as you mentioned,
many people who've received clemency recently.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
And were you able to connect the fact that the
mother going to the dinner was the reason why Paul
Walzac was given the pardon.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Yeah, that's a great question, is sort of the central one.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
Can we prove causality that there was ex favor done
and now we see a presidential action as a result
I personally have not been able to prove that. And
that sort of gets to another part of this whole
reporting path, and that politics has always been, in many
ways a game of relationships, and so when does that cross.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
The line and would there have been anything illegal about it?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
If if it was really just like quid pro quo,
the mother comes to the fundraiser and then Trump gives
the pardon to the sun.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Yes, I mean, I want to say, I'm not a lawyer,
and I cover the White House, not the Department of Justice,
so I don't want to speak out of turn, but
I can't imagine.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Like a legal system that would love a qui pro
quot like that.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Right?
Speaker 1 (03:16):
What about Julie and Todd christ Lee, I must say
I'm not a reality TV person. I don't really like
watching those shows, but tell us about their situation, so they.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Are, as you said, they are reality stars.
Speaker 5 (03:28):
I also am not familiar with them from TV, but
know a lot of people are.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
And they were only a fraction through.
Speaker 5 (03:33):
Their prison sentences for tax evasion and defrauding banks when
they received a pardon.
Speaker 4 (03:40):
I've actually been.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
Told by a few people that that pardon looks really corrupt,
but in some ways maybe was more complicated. I've not
been able to get into the fine print there, but
some folks who who have been reliable in the past
said that, so I think that's interesting and worth pointing out.
Their case was brought to the attention of the Pardons
are when their daughter, Savannah Chrisley, who spoke at the
(04:02):
Republican National Convention in support of President Trump, approached her
and convinced her that it was a good case to
take up.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
The pardons are as Alice Johnson, who Trump actually pardoned
in his first term and then named her to sort
of help him decide who's going to get a pardon
and who's not going to get a pardon. Although he
doesn't always take her advice, it.
Speaker 5 (04:22):
Sounds like Alice Johnson is a really important person to
understand when we're thinking about pardons and how they're operating
right now. Essentially, the pardon process used to be funneled
much more through the Department of Justice, and what the
Trump administration has done is really consolidate its authority in
the White House, and a lot of that authority is
centered around Alice, who believes very much in clemency. As
(04:46):
somebody who has received a second chance herself and has
opinions that I think often align with the presidents that
sometimes don't, and she is widely respected, it seems, by
a lot of criminal justice folks on both sides of
the aisle.
Speaker 1 (05:02):
What about one more that you talk about in your reporting,
and that's Scott Jenkins.
Speaker 5 (05:07):
So he is a former Virginia sheriff who was convicted
of federal bribery and fraud charges and his case was
really brought to the Trump administration by Ed Martin, who
is now in the Department of Justice, really operating in
relation to Alice Johnson to get these pardons to the
president's desk.
Speaker 4 (05:26):
So you know what our reporting.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Found is there is a number of ways to get
the president's attention. Alice Johnson, from my reporting, seems like
the most effective approach. She has a high rate of
people coming to her attention and getting the president's ear
on them.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
But Ed Martin certainly is another figure with some influence.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
Then there are the people that we can't have this
conversation without talking about, which is the fifteen hundred or
so people who were charged and or convicted for what
they did on January sixth, and they got a blanket
pardon or clemency right on the beginning of the term.
Speaker 5 (06:03):
You can understand these pardons by looking at them both
separately and together, but looking at them in categories is
quite revealing and something that really helped me when I
was trying to report on this and understand it. The
January sixth pardons are like pretty clearly politically motivated. I mean,
I don't know how to talk around that. I mean,
that feels very clear. The president feels very wronged by
(06:27):
the justice system, as he says very openly, and I
think in some ways these January six folks are an
extension of that feeling for him.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
In that case, they wouldn't even need somebody to have
some connection to Alice Johnson or a connection to him.
He wanted to do that because he you know, it
gets to his narrative that he won the twenty twenty election,
which of course we know he did not right, and.
Speaker 5 (06:48):
That the Justice Department has been corrupted and weaponized against
people like him who have conservative beliefs, who think differently
about the country.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
There are other examples of that too. There are a
lot of parts that flew a little more under the radar.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
For folks convicted on charges to do with protesting abortion,
And if you look closely at those people, some of
them are Democrats. Some of them have actually been outspoken
against President Trump.
Speaker 4 (07:16):
So it's not.
Speaker 5 (07:17):
Like you look through the list of every person pardoned
and they're either connected to the President or Alice Johnson
or Ed Martin. And I think that's important to say
because a lot of the high profile.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
Pardons are that way.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
But there is no question that there is a much
more overt and clear connection off between people who have
given money or loyalty to the president and his staff
and have now received real life changing benefits as a result.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Well.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
And one Democrat that I mentioned right at the top
is rod Balgoyev. It's the former governor of Illinois who
got a pardon from the President and probably doesn't agree
with them on most things politically, right.
Speaker 5 (07:57):
I mean, I think that feeling of political persecution and
the Justice Department being at fault for that really underlies
a lot of this.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
So when you look at pardons overall so far, it
seems like a lot, but it's actually not the most
of any president. There were a number of presidents a
long time ago, around World War Two that were doing
thousands of pardons.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
What is so unusual about what Trump is doing?
Speaker 5 (08:21):
Yeah, I mean I actually when I was really looking
at the numbers have past presidents was also I mean
I was sort of surprised by that, by the way
that I feel like folks are talking about his pardons
right now. I mean, I love covering pardons, and I
love covering the Justice Department and its connection to the
White House in part because it's so revealing, because it's real,
like real individual people, and the choices there can be
(08:43):
so reflective of a president's worldview and an administration's worldview.
And I think here President Trump's pardons like really really
underscore that he does not care about perceptions of corruption.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
He does not care about.
Speaker 5 (09:00):
You know, almost like spreading the wealth equitably among people
who get his ear. Like he likes people who are
loyal to him. He likes people who are not afraid
to be loyal to him. He puts his trust in
people like Alice Johnson and other folks who've really want
him over to make decisions for him or with his consent.
And I think just sort of the blowback that he's
(09:20):
gotten for these pardons, and yet I've seen no hesitation
at all is very you know, indicative of the ways
this president is different. And another important point on this
is most other presidents do controversial pardons on their way
out of the White House, right, and this is really
early in his term, and he's sort of able to
just push through any sort of politicization that might be
(09:44):
a problem for.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Him and just keep going.
Speaker 5 (09:46):
Well.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
It also does something else that he clearly likes, and
we can tell by the tariffs, which is it's something
that he can do without anybody else. He doesn't need Congress.
He's got the power to pardon people whenever he wants, right.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
And I talk to a lot of professor and experts,
some of them.
Speaker 5 (10:01):
Who lean far more liberal, and they said to me, like, look,
I'm going to start by telling you nothing here is
outside of his jurisdiction, Like he has control over who
he pardons. Like that's the way it goes. And so
here we are.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
What does he get out of it?
Speaker 5 (10:19):
You know, that's a great question and is one I'm
trying to figure out. I mean, I think, as you
implied earlier, there's a question of if he's getting money
or people close to him are getting money. I have
not proven that I don't feel comfortable saying that's the case,
but there are signs that suggest that is a line
of inquiry that I will keep pursuing.
Speaker 4 (10:40):
So that's answer A. Answer B is that Trump is.
Speaker 5 (10:44):
Really a relationship oriented president and he has learned to
throughout his career keep the people close who have been
loyal to him, and he is doing that in certain
ways with some of these folks, also our vehicle that
allow him to make a political point. The president and
his administration are very media savvy, and pardoning all of
(11:07):
the January six ers at once, for example, calls attention
yet again to the way that that event has played
out in American history, how those demonstrators or rioters, depending
on how you see them, behaved, how they were treated
by the justice system. He's putting human faces to that,
(11:28):
and he's again forcing the conversation and sort of flexing
his power.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
And we should note that there are at least a
few of those people who are pardoned who have already
been re arrested for other things after that, gotten into
trouble with the lot.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Yes, very much so.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
And there are people who are part into assaulted police officers,
no question about it, And I think even quietly some
folks around the president weren't so sure about that one.
I mean, that's the Republican Party traditionally has really like
backed the blue and that is not a simple situation
or decision in that way. And frankly, people that the
(12:03):
president part in his first term have reoffended and he's
not really had to respond to that. Like it's not
hurt him politically, it's not really been a problem for him.
So I think that if he experiences if he makes
a decision that he likes and he can get away
with it, he's going to do it again well.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
And that, by the way, is one of the reasons
why we do this podcast. Because there are so many
things happening, it's very easy for the whole pardon situation
to just get swept right under when we're talking about
Iran or we're talking about tariffs or anything else, and.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
It's nice to take a moment to talk about it.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
In a minute, we are going to hear about some
of the criticism that many legal experts have brought up
about these pardons and commutations.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
One thing Trump did with Washington Post reporter Emily Davies
will be right back.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
Welcome back to One Thing Trump did exclusively on the
Middle Podcast Feed. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This episode, we're talking
about the many pardons issued by President Trump. I'm joined
by Washington Post reporter Emily Davies.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
There's one I just want to ask you about that.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
It's not a pardon, but it's the case of New
York City Mayor Eric Adams is kind of close. The
federal corruption case was dropped after Trump came into office.
Do you think that that situation fits into the just
the broad scope of what we're talking about here with pardons.
Speaker 5 (13:34):
Yes. I think we've seen over and over again in
various ways so far in this administration that the president
feels deeply that he's been politically persecuted and wants to
make a centerpiece of this administration his unraveling of that system.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
So you see it through the pardons, you see it
in other ways.
Speaker 5 (13:55):
But yeah, I think he's got a big point to
make for himself.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
That he doesn't want politicians to be gone after by
the Justice Department.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Basically, right, and I mean accept Joe Biden and kamlais right.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
Right.
Speaker 5 (14:08):
I was thinking about how to I was thinking about
how to answer that question. I mean, I don't think
he likes allegations of bribery or using your professional office
to benefit your personal life. It seems like that category
of accusations that obviously the president and his family have
(14:31):
really whethered that strikes a nerve with him.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
Right, So you just spoke a moment ago about January sixth.
One of the things I think that is hard for
people to understand is how someone who says they're all
about law and order and says we've got to deport
everyone who's in the country illegally and then pardons all
these people who assaulted police officers on January six and
they apparently don't have to worry about the law. Or
politicians who had bribery or fraud or other things and
(14:59):
they don't have to worry about it. What kind of
criticism did you get in your reporting? What were people saying,
even though it's not illegal, about why this is a
bad thing that he's pardoning all these people that were
convicted of crimes.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
Basically every legal expert I talked to said is it's
even if what the president is trying to do is
simply consolidate decision making authority and there's no real corruption
and there's not a quick pro quo going on, Like
even if all of that is the case, still a
system that is dependent on so few people like him
(15:34):
and at Martin and the White House Counsel's Office and
Alice Johnson.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
Like even that is very vulnerable to.
Speaker 5 (15:42):
Like injustice maybe is the right word, where very few
people have access to that type of relief that is
really profound and a lot of people feel entitled to
a look. And when the process is less formalized and
less in some ways less bureaucratic, there are fewer guarantees
of equality or equity like across the board, and so
(16:05):
that is one big concern and in some ways, like
again I love covering this stuff because the question of
who gets a second chance is like very foundational to
how this country functions, like the criminal justice system and
how people who make mistakes or treated like you know,
dictates like how people experience this country and like experience
(16:27):
right and wrong. And so I think there are sort
of like bigger questions to ask about how his thumb
on the scale in the criminal justice system, like how
that's changing the way this country functions, whether it's you know,
democratic leaders now being arrested for appearing at public events
and disagreeing with the president, Like that is a really
strong statement, or like immigrants, and obviously like the pretty
(16:51):
extreme measures he's gone to there, like the way that
he's using the law is just like entirely representative of
how he wants to change the country.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
And you talk about the small number of people around
him that if you get access to that person you
might have a chance of getting a pardon, it sounds
like there's also like an entire cottage industry of lawyers
that has sprung up to help people get in touch
with those.
Speaker 5 (17:14):
People, right, Because the question of how to get close
to the president if you don't know him is very hard,
Like most people can't just show up at mar A
Lago and say hi, and so you need to find
people who can do that. And so these lawyers who
have relationships to him are suddenly really valuable and can
charge a lot a lot of money. Now I will
say again, like I think it's important to acknowledge that
(17:36):
I talk to many lawyers for the story who have
done pro bono work, and no Alice Johnson from Clemency
Spaces and don't fit in that category of attorneys. So
there is certainly a cottage industry now that raises real
questions about access, But there are others who are getting
in in other ways.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
What about on the positive side, I guess if you
look at this and you're a big Trump Republican, are
there legitimate criticisms of the criminal justice system that Trump
is bringing to light through these pardons. Are there people
that you talked to who said, this is so great
that he's pardoning all these people and showing that the
justice system is corrupt.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
One thing Alice Johnson is doing is taking less seriously
the views of prosecutors on cases that initially convicted the
folks who are now up for clemency. So if you
were charged with a crime and convicted of a crime
like fifty years ago, there are a lot of experts
who don't think that the opinion of those prosecutors from
(18:33):
all that time ago, who met you maybe one or
two times, should matter that much. And Alice Johnson is
one of those people. And so instead of really prioritizing
those perspectives as has been done traditionally, she's looking more
toward prison staff who have really interacted a lot with
the people who are eligible for a pardon and can
give more direct insight, and that has been pretty universally lauded.
Speaker 4 (18:56):
So that's one example.
Speaker 5 (18:57):
I mean, I think there's legitimate criticism that the government
is too slow and that these processes take too long,
and part of what Trump has done is just move
faster and broken down layers of bureaucracy by moving a
lot of this process into the White House.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Let me ask you one more thing, Emily, and that
is we talked about tariffs. There was a moment when
Trump was issuing these blanket tariffs when even some Republicans
were in favor of taking away his unilateral tariff power,
which he's been using emergency measures to do. Has anyone
suggested changing the president's pardon power.
Speaker 4 (19:34):
I have not heard that from inside the administration.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
Again, I think with the crush of news, this topic
really can fly under the radar. I'm really interested in it.
It's something I hope to keep returning to. So if
anyone is listening, has any thoughts, please find me. I
should be easy to find online.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
That is Emily Davies, who covers the White House for
the Washington Post.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Emily, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 4 (19:59):
Thank you for having me, and.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
Thanks to you for listening to one thing Trump did.
It was produced by Harrison Patino. Our next middle episode
will be in your podcast feed later this week. We'll
be asking you whether or not you're worried about America's
standing in the world.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
An all star panel for that one.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
And if you like this podcast, please rate it wherever
you get your podcasts and write a review. Our theme
music was composed by Noah Haidu. I'm Jeremy Hobson. Talk
to you soon.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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