October 30, 2025 • 51 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we're coming to you from Concord, New Hampshire to talk about the state of civil discourse in America, and what we can do to restore civility to our politics. Jeremy is joined by former New Hampshire State Legislator Doug Teschner, Citizens Count Executive Director Anna Brown and Nick Capodice, host of NHPR's Civics 101. The Clay Pigeons Strings Band joins as well, plus live audience comments and questions. #civics #civility #politics #civildiscourse #Democrat #Republican #Independent #CharlieKirk
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to a special edition of The Middle in partnership
with NHPR. I'm Jeremy Hobson, coming to you from the
Capital Center for the Arts in Conquered New Hampshire. It
has been just over two months since the assassination of
the political activist and podcaster Charlie Kirk at a campus
(00:21):
event in Utah that was focused on debating controversial ideas,
and Kirk's murder sparked another national conversation about the tone
of our politics and our ability and willingness to talk
with and listen to one another, especially when we disagree.
Now we're in the state of New Hampshire, which is
the center of our national politics every four years when
(00:41):
they hold the first in the Nation primary.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
The people of this state.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Which has been a swing state for the last few decades,
are used to being around people with different political views.
They're also used to having face to face interaction with
national political candidates. But like all Americans, they're also on
social media, where it's common place to unfriends someone who's
on the other side politically, or start a fight that
you probably wouldn't start if the person we're standing right
(01:07):
in front of you.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So this hour We're going to be talking about.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
What we can do to restore some civility to our politics,
our conversations about politics, and even just our interactions with friends,
neighbors and family. I am joined by three terrific guests
here in Conquered Doug Teshner, a member of Braver Angels
and a former New Hampshire State legislator. He's also the
author of the book Beyond the Politics of Contempt, Practical
Steps to Build Positive Relationships in Divided Times.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Doug, great to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I'm delighted to be here, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
And also joining us is Anna Brown, who's executive director
of Citizens Count, a New Hampshire nonprofit that promotes civic engagement.
She's also executive director of the Warren B. Rudman Center
for Justice, Leadership and Public Service at the University of
New Hampshire Franklin Peer School of Law.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Did I get all that right now?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
The title nailed it?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Thank you and Nick Kapadice with a nice short title,
co host and senior editor of New Hampshire Public Radio
Civics one oh one series.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Nick. Welcome to you as well.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
I'm delighted to be here, Jared, So you know.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
This topic was actually the first one we did about
two years ago when we started the Middle asking people
how you talk to people that you disagree with politically.
But since then, there have been two assassination attempts on
President Trump. There was the assassination of Melissa Hortman, the
House speaker in Minnesota, Charlie Kirk, obviously many other acts
(02:23):
of political violence in this country. Doug, I'm going to
start with you as a former lawmaker, how do you
think we got here to this point?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Well, thank you, Jeremy.
Speaker 6 (02:33):
And it's so troubling to see where we are today,
even the latest data saying that thirty percent of Americans
think political violence is even going to be.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Possible and necessary.
Speaker 6 (02:45):
And we can talk about social media algorithms, we can
talk about conflict entrepreneurs, people who are profiting by dividing us,
including foreign governments, and we can talk about people are
in silos, just some of the things we talk about
in our book.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I'm glad you mentioned social media. I'm sure we're going
to get to more about that. And how do things
look from your vantage point? And you are also on
a college campus at the University of News Hampshire. What's
the tenor of the political conversation right now.
Speaker 7 (03:14):
Absolutely so. One thing that I have noticed on the
U and H. Franklin Pier School of Law campus is
that our law students are surprisingly not very vocal about
what's going on. And I had a conversation.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
With a colleague about this earlier today.
Speaker 7 (03:30):
And obviously, you know, pro con, love hate, there's a
lot of unprecedented changes going on right now in the
law and the question is do these students are they
just is it just normalized since when they were kids,
you know, was when a lot of this really started
ramping up. Or is it because maybe there's a tone
that's being set that you know, for your professional your
(03:51):
future career. You know, you don't want to say the
wrong thing or step out of line or get put
in a box. So it's definitely something that I feel
there's sort of been that chilling effect on our campus.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
They're afraid maybe to get in trouble by saying something.
It's easier to say nothing. Yes, Nick, as we said,
you host the Civics one oh one podcast or NHBR,
how does Civics education do you think relate to this?
Speaker 8 (04:13):
I think it relates a great deal, Like Doug mentioned
when he said, you know, conflict entrepreneurs, that's an expression
that we should all be familiar with and should scare
all of us. People who make money, people who gain
power by breeding conflict among us.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Is that just like every podcaster at this point, I
want to.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Say that I wouldn't say that.
Speaker 8 (04:31):
In my opinion, a conflict entrepreneur is somebody who is,
you know, let's just say hypothetically making money hand over
fist from seeing division happening on both the right and
the left. And I wouldn't say every podcaster out there,
but it is happening on social media. It is happening
everything we listen to you wherever you turn your radio,
(04:52):
you're going to hear these people saying this is an
emergency right now, we have to take care of it
right now.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
And that fear.
Speaker 8 (04:58):
Stops us from thinking about the stop sign at the
end of our block or local legislation, and let's just
think about big things over which we have no control.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Well, the nationalization of our politics. You talk about the
stop sign at the end of the block. Is the
stop sign at the end of the block and getting
as much attention as Trump tearing down the East wing
of the White House.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
I would say no.
Speaker 7 (05:23):
And this is something that I've observed in my own
home city of Manchester and New Hampshire as well. And
I think when social media first came out Arab Spring,
everyone thought this is going to bring everyone in far
flong corners of the world together. But I think that
it encourages people to associate with things and identify with
a community that is way too far flong, instead of
(05:43):
the people who are literally next to them. And there's
data that shows we are talking to our physical neighbors
less than we work decades ago.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Right, Doug, you're the politician on this stage, the former politician.
Is there a difference do you think between the ordinary
people and how they interact and the political class.
Speaker 6 (06:02):
Well, I certainly think that's true, and I think a
lot of people are disincentivized from running for politics.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
You know, when I was in the.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
Legislature, we used to have pro choice Republicans, pro life Democrats.
But now you better still hoe the party line. It's
a lot harder, and also people on your side are
coming after.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
You if you don't.
Speaker 6 (06:23):
If you don't stick to your side and stick to
the party line, you're going to find yourself somehow lost
in the middle for lack of a better term.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Why do you think that is? Why are people so
telling the party line more than they used to?
Speaker 6 (06:39):
Well, I think it's the power of the conflict entrepreneurs.
I think it's the social media algorithms are pushing people
to the side.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
You know, there's a wonderful report that was done and it.
Speaker 6 (06:50):
Talked about how people on the farm the extremes are
like driving the agenda where a lot of people are
kind of not so worried. They're they're worried about why
it's so much going on with the extremes and when
people are not hearing about it from sort of the
middle and those other voices.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Nick, do people have to take civics in this country?
Speaker 8 (07:13):
Well, civics education is almost you know, like everything in education,
it's on a state by state basis. And what's interesting
right now the stat that I love telling everyone and
everyone should know it. In twenty sixteen, the United States
spent fifty dollars per student per year on STEM.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
Education science, technology, engineering, and math.
Speaker 8 (07:33):
For each student for civics, it's spent five cents fifty
dollars to five cents. Now that number has been up
to fifty cents, not bad times ten But we have
traditionally not funded civics and civics education in the United States,
So it falls to the state level to fill those gaps.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well, and it connect the dots there.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Why does it matter for the tone of our politics
if people are not taking classes about how the government works.
Speaker 7 (08:01):
Well, first of all, it's going to allow misinformation and
disinformation to proliferate if you just don't have some basic
fundamental understanding. But I think it's also true that humanities
social studies in general, that's where you're going to learn
how to disagree with people, how to make arguments in
one direction or another, how to relate to stories you
(08:22):
might not have heard before. So I think it's not
just knowing this sort of ab this I'm just a
bill from schoolhouse Rock, but also these other skills that
are part of Okay, we have to live in a
society together.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Well, and when we talk about this right now, obviously
we're not having this discussion in a vacuum. President Trump
has called his opponent's political enemies. He's called them enemies,
he's called them worse than enemies. But doesn't this nastiness
go way beyond President Trump.
Speaker 6 (08:52):
I think it does. I mean, we are accountable as citizens.
We're allowing this kind of behavior. And this where it
plays into the social media algorithms. It's not just social media,
it's the algorithms because they drive you to.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
The extremes, they drive you to fear.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
It's all designed to keep you on online longer so
that you get more advertising, but it's not really encouraging
the kind of dialogue.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
That's so important.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Nick.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
One of the things that I love about doing this
show is that we get to do topics that are
not political at all. Whether we talk about artificial intelligence
or whether we talk about GLP one drugs. Are there
things that you find that there's broad agreement on, even
across the party lines.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
Absolutely.
Speaker 8 (09:40):
The one thing that I have seen in doing the
show for seven years now that both sides agree upon
one percent is that we need more civics education in
the United States, which is interesting, right, Which is very
interesting because if you'll forgive me for asking, like, what's
the point of learning how a bill becomes a law?
If that is not being practiced in front of us
on the federal level. There's so many things that we
(10:03):
learn in Sevi's class and to try it and true,
like I took it in eighth grade, that you don't
see happening.
Speaker 5 (10:08):
Rules are being broken.
Speaker 8 (10:09):
If the Constitution is a legal document, it has been
interpreted by brilliant and very wealthy legal minds for two
hundred odd years. We're going to get to some confusing
places where all the things we learned about in eighth
grade just.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Don't matter, and then our show we're just going to
have to cancel it.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Hope not.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
I hope, So, I hope not too.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Jeremy, Anna, what do you think?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Well, it's interesting.
Speaker 7 (10:30):
I love digging through polls sometimes, and so you're talking
about what if people find agreement on and I love
finding these gems in polls. We were just talking recently
in New Hampshire, where we are now. There was a
poll that came out just a few months ago that
showed ninety five percent of people in our state agree
that we should ban stock trading for members of Congress.
(10:52):
It was roughly three quarters. It was over seventy percent
of people agreed in New Hampshire that we should have
a bell to bell ban on cell phones in schools.
So I think that there absolutely are areas of agreement
that we can find and move forward on, but they're
just not elevated and or you know, they they would
not benefit, as you called it, conflict entrepreneurs. You know,
(11:13):
in some ways, having division, having systems that don't work
so well sometimes benefit people who are donating a lot
of campaign funds to art decision makers.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Interestingly, by the way, banning cell phones and schools is
something that has been adopted in both Republican and Democratic
led states recently, So that's loading ours, right, Yes, as
long as you're doing it to people under eighteen, I
feel like they can do whatever they want. Like nobody
under eighteen can have a gun, everybody, okay with that? Yeah,
that's fine, Okay, nobody can have their phone in school.
I mean it is interesting though politicians are more than
(11:42):
happy to make rules.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
For young people.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Sometimes that's where it starts.
Speaker 9 (11:45):
Though.
Speaker 7 (11:45):
Think about with cigarettes, right, that's started under age eighteen
and now we have a lot more regulations.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
That's true, yes, Doug.
Speaker 6 (11:52):
When you bring people from different political points of view,
they actually find that they agree on more than they realize.
People agree on more than the fundamental values of our country.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
But they're so polarized, and we just.
Speaker 6 (12:06):
Have to highlight to people that there's so much more
that we agree on than we disagree on, and this
is really essential to what's going to take for us
to hold our country together.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
We'll stand by because in a moment we're going to
talk about what the rest of America might learn about
how politics are done here in New Hampshire, and we're
going to hear from members of our live audience. You're
listening to a special edition of the Middle from Conquered
New Hampshire. Welcome back to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
(13:03):
We're coming to you this week from the Capital Center
for the Arts and Conquered New Hampshire in partnership with NHPR,
talking about restoring civility to our politics. I'm joined by
Doug Teshner, member of the Braver Angels and a former
New Hampshire State Legislator, Anna Brown, executive director of Citizens Count,
and Nick Kapadich, co host and senior editor of New
Hampshire Public Radios Civics one oh one, and we're going
(13:24):
to be taking some questions for the audience.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
But before we do that, let's talk about where we are.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Anna, this is a state, New Hampshire, part of New England,
which is a little bit different than the rest of
the country when it comes to the tone of our politics.
I'll note that New Hampshire has a Republican governor two
Democrats right now in the Senate. Neighboring Massachusetts recently had
a moderate Republican governor who was very popular in that state,
(13:49):
Charlie Baker. Now there's a Democrat in charge of Massachusetts.
The governor Vermont is a Republican. What is different here?
Speaker 7 (13:55):
I think that above all we have this very independent
minded street. Maybe it's because this is where the Revolution started, right,
so we were all kind of raised in this culture
of being independent. But I also think it is because
we have a much more face to face political reality,
because we're smaller states, and because in New Hampshire, for example,
(14:17):
we have a citizen legislature, four hundred people. They're paid
one hundred dollars a year plus mileage, so they're basically volunteers.
So I often joke that Dunkin Donuts and Market Basket
are as much the halls of democracy as our state house,
because you're probably going to know the person representing you,
and we had the first in the nation presidential primary,
and growing up, everybody I knew my own age kids
(14:39):
would go see this or that presidential candidate, and I
think that they're that culture of like, oh, we evaluate
people for who they are.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
We don't just vote the party line.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Even though every other state tries to take that away
from you every four years, but you still got it.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
I will fight for New Hampshire.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, okay, Doug, what do you think I mean you
were a member of that city legislature.
Speaker 6 (15:01):
Well, I think yes, we have certain advantages that were
a small state in a big legislature. I think we're
lucky in the state in a lot of ways. But
we you know, we have to work on it. We
all have to work on it to keep it better.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Nick, what about you, You, like me, are originally from
the great Land of Lincoln, the state of Illinois. Do
you think that things are different here in New Hampshire.
Speaker 10 (15:21):
Oh?
Speaker 8 (15:22):
Yeah, Well see I was born in normal Illinois, but
I moved here. I got out of there at the
age of five and I moved here to sunny New Hampshire.
I was I was absolutely shocked when I first even
as a kid, I was shocked at Candlepin Bowling, and
I was shocked at the idea of a citizen legislature.
The fact that we are one of the largest governing
bodies in the western world, four hundred and twenty four
people for the state of New Hampshire. And it's easy
(15:44):
for me to sort of, you know, poo poo that
and say, oh, that's just kind of ridiculous, But it
is very cool to know that I can go down
the street and talk to my elected representative. Can this
be replicated in other states? I have absolutely no idea,
but I do think it's you're not going to be
able to have as much effect on a federal level
as you are on a state level, which is why
you know everything we're talking about tonight, including how to
(16:06):
disagree with people.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
It's got to start with the people you're.
Speaker 8 (16:08):
In a room with, and then eventually you can go
to the broader, you know, online world where you're fighting
with everybody else.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
But you got to start local first, right, I mean, Doug,
one of the things you talk about in your book
is that people are less involved in their local communities
than they used to be.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
What do you think are the consequences of that?
Speaker 6 (16:25):
Well, I mean this is the one on New Hampshire's
own Robert Putnam wrote the book Bowling Alone and another book,
The Upswing, and it's just a decline of social capital
and this is a big, big concern. And he talks
about where eye culture as opposed to a wee culture,
and he actually traces this going back to the Gilded
Age late eighteen hundreds up until the nineteen sixties was
(16:49):
the rise of the we culture.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
And now he's watched the.
Speaker 6 (16:52):
Decline again starting in the nineteen sixties, and what's it
going to take to get another upswing? And so it's
deeper than politics. I mean, I think you see people
giving people the finger on the highway, and you'd.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
See that's in Massachusetts.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
I think, okay, but people, you know, more people are
angry and upset and disconnected from people, and we need
It's deeper than politics. But politics is obviously where the
front line of this battle is being fought.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
So you know, we've heard a few times about social
media this hour, and Nick, I want to ask you
about that and the role specifically that social media is
playing all of this, because even if you're having a
conversation now and I'm a member of you know, I
have been a member in the course of my life
of these Facebook groups in the neighborhood that you live in,
(17:46):
which are like just cesspools of hatred towards parking and
the local restaurant doesn't accept this or that, or how
could the price be this high for this?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
It's like that has nothing to do with politics.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
But it gets pretty ugly now, and that's your local community.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Well yeah, well I love those cess pools and they're
fun to watch.
Speaker 8 (18:05):
Right. My next door is binging as we speak, right,
But I mean, I think it starts in childhood. And
this is why I've always I've been talking with my
co host Haan a lot about how we need a
new word for civics because we hear civics and it
sounds a bit dull, and we think it's how Bill
becomes love. But civics is really just that, like being
able to talk to somebody else, being able to respect
(18:25):
somebody else.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
I was rewatching.
Speaker 8 (18:27):
Witness the other night building a barn together, right, So
like things that we do together in our community. That
is what citizenship is. The word citizen just means person
in a town, like a citizen is just somebody who
is part of their community. An online community is no
replacement for that.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Right.
Speaker 8 (18:43):
I have a neighbor I disagree with every day, but
he picks up my mail one I'm out of town.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
Right.
Speaker 8 (18:48):
That is what civics is. Civics is second grade learning
how to share toys. Civics is everything that we do,
and I think we need to sort of embrace that,
and then that will lead to civil discourse if we
follow a couple of rules which are not being followed online.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Okay, let's get to some audience comments.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I'm sure that our New Hampshire audience is not going
to be shy about coming forward to tell us what
you think about this. You can just come right down
here and Zoe will bring the mic to you.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Here we go. Why don't you tell me your name
and what town you're coming from.
Speaker 11 (19:21):
My name is Lori Carrie. I'm from Bosquin, New Hampshire.
First of all, thank you Doug. You taught me at
Braver Angels and I am a member. But my question
is this, Should we get rid of political parties because
is that part of what is dividing us? Wouldn't it
be better if we were just independence all of us?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Great question? Anna Brown I'm going to go to you. Sure.
Speaker 7 (19:45):
Well, that's interesting because one of the things that I
think New Hampshire does well a little bit of our
secret sauce. Again, we haven't talked about open primaries where
you do not have to be a member.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Of a party to go in and pick up the ballot.
Speaker 7 (19:58):
If you're registered independent, you can show up on primary
and say I'm going to vote for the Democrats, I'm
going to vote for the Republicans.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
There's also a group in New Hampshire.
Speaker 7 (20:04):
Together that came up with this idea of we should
have a ballot of all the parties together, so you
can in the congressional race vote left. Maybe in the
governor you want to pick out of these Republican candidates.
So I think there are ideas to do that that
could that are helpful because certainly also in primaries you
get that extrusion to more extreme voters, more extreme candidates.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
That being said, completely getting rid of the parties.
Speaker 7 (20:27):
I almost want to toss this to you, Nick, because
I feel like there was so much writing among the
founding fathers about the dangerous of factions, but how also
they're perhaps inevitable.
Speaker 8 (20:35):
Yeah, factions are federalists ten. The Federalist paper. Federalist ten
is all about factions, that they're terrible and they are inevitable.
As long as we have winner take all first past
the post voting in the United States, we are going.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
To have two parties. There's a famous law.
Speaker 8 (20:51):
It's not really a law law, but it's a law
called Duverger's law, which is we are destined in the
way that we do voting now in the United States
and elections to have a two party system. I would
love to get rid of hyperpartisanship, but I don't think
the elimination of the parties is possible unless we have
a new constitution.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Doug, what do you think?
Speaker 6 (21:11):
Oh, I think it's really difficult because the parties have
ingrained they're ingrained in the political system and do I mean,
I think things like open primaries could be could be interesting,
but I think it's going to be really hard to
get rid of the parties from a practical point of view.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
You know, we had a guest on our show over
a year ago who was the Senate I believe co
majority leader in Alaska, a Republican, very moderate, who said
that she would not have been able to be elected
if it weren't for the rank choice voting that they
(21:49):
put in place in Alaska that there was then a
big movement to get rid of. And in fact, in
many places where they put it in the party that
suffers from it ends up not wanting it.
Speaker 8 (21:59):
Nick, I just have follow to that, which is so
the reason we vote in a secret ballot in the
United States. We used to call it the Australian ballot.
We stole it from Australia. But I think Australia could
teach us a thing or two about democracy because they
have ranked choice voting, they have very diverse parties, and
everybody has a holiday for elections. Yes, and they have
a democracy sausage or everybody from different parties grill sausages
(22:21):
and makes fun of the other persons sausages.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
It's like a.
Speaker 8 (22:25):
Holiday with drums and pageantry and fun. I would argue that,
you know, we took a lesson when we took the
secret ballot from them.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
We should, you know, maybe consider some other lessons as well.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Okay, let's go to another audience question or comment.
Speaker 12 (22:37):
Hello.
Speaker 10 (22:38):
My name is Chip Underhill. I live in Alton, New Hampshire,
and I agree that politics is the front line of
this conversation, I agree that politics is actually far larger
than that, and the larger part is the morality and ethics,
two words I never hear used in this conversation. And
I think that we as a society have abandoned any
(23:02):
social contract. So if you are a parent, if you
are a neighbor, go to the social contract. My god,
what is ethical? What is moral? I've lost friends because
they think I'm Democrat and they're Republican. I could be
a Republican in five seconds, but the morality difference between
(23:22):
the two is so extreme.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Right now, where do you think that that should come from?
What part of our society can instill the morality and
the ethics? Are you talking about a religious organization or like,
where where should people be getting that from?
Speaker 13 (23:38):
Fabulous question.
Speaker 10 (23:39):
It starts at the top, and that's where it's ending
right now. But meanwhile, on a local level, we're all
so private, we're all so territorial and worried about our
own investments and defenses, and we have given up. We've
just sort.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Of become numb.
Speaker 10 (23:58):
And I challenge us all to become more aware of
the ethics and the morality of this and make a
decision based on that.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Thank you so much for that.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I'm gonna yeah, I just want to get a thought
from Nick about that. Since you helped teach people about
the things they ought to know to survive in society,
what about that?
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Do you have to talk? You done shows nodding along and.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well no, but I mean here, have you done shows
on ethics and morality?
Speaker 8 (24:26):
Well, you know, not particularly. But what's interesting is we
do a lot of shows on the concept of originalism,
the concept of.
Speaker 5 (24:33):
Natural rights, and these things.
Speaker 8 (24:35):
It may sound like it's unrelated, but when we're talking
we're about to have the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary,
when we are looking at things like what did the
framers intend and what did they want? A lot of
the things they intended and wanted, we're moral and ethical things,
you know, natural rights, Who are we How to be
kind to your neighbor, how to have a conversation with
your neighbor. We are a nation built on protest and disagreement,
(24:58):
That's how we got here. So to do that ethically,
to argue ethically and with morality, it's something that.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
The people who built this country would have wanted.
Speaker 8 (25:07):
And I agree, we do not see that much at all.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
We want people to look at your own values, look
at yourself, look at your heart. That's where it's going
to start. It's going to start with or are your
values important to you? And are you living your values
in terms of how are you treating other people across
politics and otherwise.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
But it starts from inside each of us, Anna, I.
Speaker 7 (25:32):
Just want to jump in here because this is another
interesting dynamic is there was a state legislator who put
forward a bill a few years ago that was going
to require a philosophy course for high schoolers. And when
I first said this, I was like, this is going nowhere,
because like the idea of mandating additional things in high
school in New Hampshire is not popular. But when I
read the rationale, it was very interesting because he said,
we are a very non religious state, and so how
(25:54):
are we teaching kids to evaluate right and wrong and
so on?
Speaker 4 (25:59):
So that really is really compelling to me.
Speaker 7 (26:01):
And I think that there's also as you said, I mean,
Jeffrey Rosen from the Constitution Center just wrote a whole
book about how when the Founders talked about the pursuit
of happiness, they were actually talking about.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
The pursuit of these virtues in a very.
Speaker 7 (26:14):
Classical philosophical sense, and so I think that there is
something there about are we teaching our kids to value
things if it's in the absence of organized religion, what
does that look like? And also everyone going to church regularly,
that was more of that social capital, right, So I'm
not claiming everyone should suddenly start going to church, but
there's a piece there well.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
And I think one of the things that we've learned
in recent years as sort of norms have been tested,
is how much of our democracy relies on people operating
in good faith. That there might not be a law
that says you can't do this, but we've just that's
just the way it's been done.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
So it's worked that way.
Speaker 7 (26:49):
Yes, So many of our checks and balances we've seen
and guardrails have been about courageous people standing up and
standing on principle in the face of others, people who
are looking to eroad that or trample on that. And
most democracies fail not because of a military coup, but
because of people working on the inside and slowly just
(27:11):
taking power and people don't stand up to them.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Let's go to another audience question or comment.
Speaker 14 (27:16):
Hi, my name is Cynthia Nichols. I'm from Grantham. I'm
worried about the silos, the silos of information that we're
getting and thinking about what you were just talking about.
I wonder if we had more critical thinking in schools
and more philosophy, people could evaluate that information better. And
(27:37):
then the polarization of the way people are living. They
don't understand each other's lives. So I'm an r and
care manager and I take care of people on both
ends of the spectrum. So people with a lot of
wealth don't understand what it's like to be without that wealth.
So basically the silos, how do we bridge the gap
between that?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Uh, Doug go ahead, Well, this is the key.
Speaker 6 (27:59):
I mean, this means we have all got to get
outside of our bubbles. I mean, you know, at the
conclusion of our book, we said the most important thing
you can do is go find somebody on the other side.
Go ask them about their life, ask them about their hobbies,
ask him about their work, and ask them about how
they came to their political views, and then share the
(28:22):
same and we talk about this as change in the country,
two people at a time. I just think this is
so vital for people to go beyond their silos.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, Nick, it just a follow to that.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
I absolutely agree, Doug.
Speaker 8 (28:34):
We were recently talking to a gentleman named Ben Klutzi
who teaches I believe it's in Minneapolis, and he says,
to be able to talk to somebody with whom you disagree,
who you might not even be in the same political
frame as them, three rules must be followed, and they
are like Adaman time, right, You've got to follow these
three rules. Number one is respect. If I'm talking to you,
I must talk to you with respect. No matter how
(28:55):
much I disagree with you, I must treat you with respect.
Number two is honesty.
Speaker 5 (28:59):
You have to tell the truth about why you feel
the way you feel.
Speaker 8 (29:02):
Don't shroud it and some well I'm worried about this
or that. Tell the truth about what you feel. And
number three is curiosity. You can't fake it. You have
to know why the person feels this way, why they
want X to happen. At a political level, if you
obey those three rules and nobody's trying to win, you
will actually be able to have a conversation with somebody else.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Let's go to one more comment here from another listener.
Speaker 13 (29:29):
Yeah, thanks, very much. My name is Eric Turr, and
I am one of those volunteer slash minimally paid state
representatives here in the state. Thank you for your serving
and Representatives Manos and Corman are here as well. There's
a conflict between what I think I hear people wanting
when I go around knocking on doors, which is, you know,
(29:52):
what are you going to do to lower the tension?
What are you going to do to solve this conflict?
We don't like the way it feels, and that's on
both sides. But then you turn around to run for office,
and you know, the algorithms are all, as you said,
pushing you know, conflict. They're pushing you know division, and
it's very hard to raise the profile I guess of
non division because it's hard to see and I didn't know.
(30:14):
Maybe through shows like this, maybe through things like a caucus,
but any other ideas for basically how to make non
division more visible and more shareable online?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Can I just ask you a follow up question?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Do you find that it's difficult to be a braver
angel in the legislature? Do you have a hard time
recruiting other members? Do people want us? Do they find
it's easier to be a politician when you just go
to the extremes and do the clickbait and play the algorithms.
Speaker 13 (30:43):
I mean, I'll say, so far, it's been interesting why
people come to this, you know, because we're not a
legislative caucus that takes positions on bills. So people come
to it for whatever reason they're there. And I've been
impressed at the degree to which some of our hard
partisans show up at our events, just like people who
you'd naturally associate with sort of the middle, you know.
(31:05):
And so I don't think everyone has the same idea
in their head about what this is, but I think
they're all trying to find something better than what, you know, what.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Their experience that would be.
Speaker 13 (31:15):
That would be my guess. And it was easier when
our numbers were close.
Speaker 12 (31:18):
I will say that.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah. Stand by because in a moment we're going to
talk about some more solutions. You're listening to The Middle
coming to you from Concord, New Hampshire in association with NHPR.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
This is the Middle.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I'm Jeremy Hobson at the Capital Center for the Arts
and Conquered New Hampshire this week in partnership with NHPR,
and we are talking about how we can restore civility
to our politics. I'm joined by Anna Brown, executive director
of Citizens Count, Nick Kapadich, co host and senior editor
of Newmpshire Public Radio Civics one oh one, and Doug Teshner,
a member of Braver Angels and a former New Hampshire
state legislator. Before we go back to the audience, let's
(32:26):
talk about some of the solutions, because I know you've
all thought about this. Nick, on an individual level, what
do you think people can do to have better conversations
with people they disagree with.
Speaker 8 (32:37):
For me, the most important thing, and I got to
give credit to Jen Murcia who was in our episode
about political framing, for me, the most important thing is
that we don't have to agree on anything, but we
have to agree on what we call something. For an example,
you brought up the White House earlier on if somebody said,
if somebody referred to what happened to the East wing
of the White House this week, and they refer to
(33:00):
it as a you know, the people's house demolished and
paid for by.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Bribes from rich billionaires around the world.
Speaker 8 (33:07):
Somebody called said that that person will never be able
to have a conversation with somebody who says this is
an important, necessary upgrade to allowing our you know, more
people to come to the United States and visit in dignitaries,
to visit the White House, because because one person says
an upgrade, the other person says an illegal demolishing. If
we don't have the word for something, you know, somebody
can call immigration, you know, a human crisis, and somebody
(33:29):
else can call it an a legal invasion.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
Right. If we don't have the right, agreed upon language
for what.
Speaker 8 (33:35):
We call what we are seeing in front of our
very eyes, we don't have a truth that we can
agree upon that is right there in front of us,
there is no way that we can begin to have
a conversation with somebody else.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
But anna, isn't that now?
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Like rule number one for political strategists is just change
the terminology. Don't call it, you know, climate change, call
it something that's less scary to people, or don't you know.
There are all these examples of like Frank Luntz coming
up with a new term of how we can describe
something so that you know, it's.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Not partial birth abortion, it's.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
You know, you know what I mean absolutely.
Speaker 7 (34:09):
I think that a sort of call to actions because
we're like, what can individuals do? Was the original question,
I believe is just be aware of your own language
because it is true that the person listening to you.
Because our brains love shortcuts, right for evolutionary purposes, you
need to know is this person a threat to me?
Or are they part of my tribe? So you're going
to look for all of the cues to give you
(34:29):
your brain a shortcut to safety. So if you're trying
to have an open conversation with someone, just try to
make their job a little bit harder. Which, yeah, it's
policing language, it's semantics, but this is I think this
is this is where we're at as people have been
given too many clear cues of Okay, if they said
illegal immigrant, okay, they're they're Republican, Okay, they said undocumented
(34:50):
asylum seeker, they are definitely Democrat. And sometimes when you're
just speaking, it just comes out of your mouth and
you're not really thinking about that in that way. But
here's the other thing. I will say that if you
want to have these met conversations, you cannot go in
with your goal to be that change that person's mind.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Well humans can. We can smell it.
Speaker 7 (35:07):
We can smell it like bacon on the fryar in
the morning, and it just will not work. So it's
this sounds so hard, and practicing this as an individual
is very hard, but you have to. When you start
a conversation with someone, you have to legitimately be open
to them changing your mind or you won't find any
common ground with them either.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Than just listening to what they have to say and
being actually curious about it. As usual, my favorite part
about this show has been the amazing audience questions and comments.
As wonderful as our esteemed guests are, I want to
get to more of these, so come on back down
and let's let's do that. I also love the idea
that I have no idea what you're going to say,
(35:48):
and we don't know where we're going to go with this.
Speaker 12 (35:50):
Hi, my name's Bert Cooper. I'm from Concord, New Hampshire,
and I don't often get a chance to meet with
people from the other side, but I did when we
had a local issue in Conquered and involved schools, and
people from both sides of the political aisle felt that
they had us issues that they wanted to deal with
(36:13):
and it was a situation where we had to come
up with a compromise amongst the group who were from
political extremes. And you know, it was one of the
few situations where you get a chance to talk with
the other people. The other opportunity for that is at
the polls on election day. I volunteer at the polls
(36:35):
as a legal observer at the polls, and election day
that's like one of the few times I get to
talk with the people on the other side. I mean,
it's just to me. I think the idea of having
political events where you're there in person is really important.
And I think the idea of having a national election
(36:56):
day that's a holiday that everyone goes to the polls,
I think that would help in some small degree to
get us talking once again, because you'll talk about the
school issues, you'll talk about the local issues, you'll talk
about taxes. Then you'll find out, you know, there's other
issues that are in common too, So I think we
(37:17):
should think about that as an important way to gather
the population together.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
That just reminded me of the other thing that we
all have to do as our civic duty that makes
us come together with people that may not agree, and
that is jury duty, where by the way, everybody has
to reach the same conclusion at the end, so we
have to actually be able to convince each other.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Doug, you wanted to say something, well, I.
Speaker 6 (37:37):
Just think citizen led solutions, which is really what he
talked about, working on community problems with your neighbors. This
is so important and it's part of the reason now
that people aren't so much in churches and roadary clubs,
but when people come together to solve problems, it can
be so important.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Another member of the.
Speaker 15 (37:58):
Audience here, Hi, I'm Rachel from Lebanon, New Hampshire, and
Robert Putnam came up earlier, and as we know from
his work, social and community connection is an early link
in the chain that leads.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
To a strong civil society.
Speaker 15 (38:11):
And so to me, increasing social connection is a way
to an action that we can take to combat the
US versus them mentality that we're facing these days. So
I plan community events where I live up in the
Upper Valley, which is New Hampshire and Vermont, and it
seems like people are really desperate for something to do
and for human connection. But still some folks will tell
(38:31):
me they sit in their car and they're just anxious
to come in to something like a happy hour, you know,
which is pretty low key, and so it can be
hard to get them to come off the couch, out
of their car and into these events. So to me,
from my experience, I think that some folks lost like
the muscle of being a joiner and going out and
trying new things. And also I think it's just there's
(38:52):
really real significant financial and family pressures now that make
it hard for people to have their basic needs met,
let alone to have time and energy.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
After work to go socialize.
Speaker 15 (39:03):
So do you think that having a greater social safety
net so that people don't have to struggle as hard
just to get through the day would allow us to
have more energy to invest in our local communities.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Great question, And Nick, I wonder though, if we did
have more time, would we just waste it doom scrolling
on social media or would we actually know out And me,
I'm just.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
No, we really would.
Speaker 8 (39:31):
I mean, I spend way too much time on the score.
I was just thinking kind of wistfully, Doug, when you
were talking about how my father and I used to
argue about so much stuff when I grew up in
the back of a Honda Cord listening to Rush Limbaugh
and by the time my father died, I'd rather be
occupying Wall Street bumper sticker. So what he always taught
me was the importance of being willing to change, and
(39:53):
being curious and just going out and having a good
time with other people.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
I mean, that's not what we're here on stage to
talk about.
Speaker 8 (40:00):
But like the abandonment of the third space in the world,
not just the United States, is so depressing to me.
The bar, the hangout, the after school place, kids playing
with each other in the playground. Like, if we don't
have that, we do lose that muscle. We do lose
that muscle, and it needs to be strengthened. And me
playing Slay the Spy on my phone is not helping.
(40:21):
So I really, I think we should all work out
that muscle, because if we do, we're going to be
able to talk to each other.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
I just want to bring up the fact that you know,
I know, we all want to forget about it now
that it even ever happened, but we are just a
couple of years out of a global pandemic that did
change our ability to go do those things and that
has had a lasting effect, and I wonder if five
years from now will be a little more back to
the way that we were before the pandemic.
Speaker 15 (40:47):
Amma.
Speaker 7 (40:47):
I just when I was hearing that and hearing about
you know, people sitting in their cars and being anxious,
made me think of conversations that we have once again
had at the un H Franklin Piers School of Law
about how some law students are coming now in now
and they're lacking some of those skills that you need
as a lawyer to be really really social and stand
(41:08):
up in front of a room and answer questions on
the spot, you know, and sort of on the fly
like that. And so I don't think that's just law students, right,
that's all of us. I think that that was a
deficit that all of us are up against. I think
about myself. I've struggled with anxiety in my life, and unfortunately,
the way out of that is to make yourself uncomfortable,
to make yourself do the uncomfortable things.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
It's not fun, but I think that there is.
Speaker 7 (41:32):
And also it's uncomfortable to have a conversation with someone
who doesn't agree with you, to be in a room
to play a sport you've never played before.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Okay, adults, we hate getting embarrassed.
Speaker 7 (41:41):
We hate making fools of ourselves and doing a new activity,
trying something new, Just like having that uncomfortable conversation, we're
gonna avoid it. So I think, I hate to say it,
but it's kind of on all of us to do
the uncomfortable things.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Let's get to another comment here.
Speaker 16 (41:59):
My name is Dean from Kintokook, New Hampshire. I find
it fascinating that we talk about bringing people together and
one of the number one ways that I had students
come together in my office was food because they have
to be quiet to listen when they put something in
their mouth. But at the same time, it gave them
time to think about what was actually being said, and
it was something that really brought them together to think.
(42:21):
And often sometimes it was just a listening learning experience
for me and sometimes the moderation, but mostly listening. And
I think that's a piece that we've been missing. But
what I often heard from them was frustration because they
were told things like that might be your truth, but
it's not the truth. They were told that they don't
understand their world. And what was frustrating for me is
(42:43):
I would listen to them speak, and then I would
listen to the adults that they would try to bring
their situations and thoughts and concerns to think about what
theyre's being said to them through the lens of how
they grew up, the lens of their politics, and they
didn't truly listen. Sometimes I think the adults needed to
be eating too. So my question is, how do we
(43:04):
create an environment for the younger generation where we don't
have to put food in people's mouth just to get
them to listen? And what steps would you suggest?
Speaker 6 (43:13):
Well, that's a great you know, one of the great
books of our time is Stephen Covey Seven Habits of
Highly Successful People, and he talks about listening to understand.
We don't listen to understand, we listen to reply, and
we aren't teaching this in schools. Listening is so vitally
(43:35):
important with humility and curiosity.
Speaker 8 (43:39):
We have met with teachers all across the country, specifically
social studies and civics teachers, and if there is one
group of people that is teaching america students how to
listen to understand, it is them, Like they are doing
the Lord's work out there, and there are people who
are teaching them to listen to reply.
Speaker 5 (43:56):
And it's not the people in their schools.
Speaker 8 (43:58):
It is the people on discord and on roadblocks and
then on YouTube that are teaching them to listen to
reply to win a fight as opposed to have a conversation.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Let's get to another comment here.
Speaker 17 (44:09):
Hi, my name is Raws and from Nashua. I have
a question around as it seems that we are moving
further and further away from a shared reality within the
United States about what is and what isn't important, and
what is and what isn't actually true, And we're also
reaching a point where everybody thinks that certain things are
more important and are on a shorter timeframe that need
(44:31):
to be addressed now, whether that's the left of climate change,
whether that's the right with immigration. How do you contrast
those viewpoints where you have a set period of time
that people think something needs to be done at with
the realities of the current situation, especially if neither side
(44:52):
accepts the other science basis of fact.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
That is a very interesting question. Anna, I'm going to
ask you to answer that question.
Speaker 7 (45:00):
Usually when people talk to me about like how do
we get to a better place on policy making and
find agreement. My answer is usually to not start with
those super high pressure, highly partisan arguments. You know, you
don't start the conversation with someone about, you know, gun
laws or abortion, you start talking about the stop sign
at the end of your road. So when we're talking
at that level, though, and when you're talking about a
(45:22):
lack of shared reality, I think of a book I
read by journalists Monica Guzman, who has actually worked with
Braver Angels, and she talks that a lot of times
we all share the same values, we're just ranking them differently.
So I think that especially when you're in a conversation
with a person like that and you're just like completely
disagreeing about the timeline, the scope, is it a problem
(45:46):
or not, I think you can start from a place
of we can both agree that this is a problem,
that we do value this. What we're disagreeing is sort
of the ranking and the prioritizing, and then I think
that's where you can have more of that meaningful policy
conversation of what are the immediate next steps because it's
sort of it's then it's that acknowledgment that Okay, we
(46:08):
actually do both agree these are problems potentially, and granted
maybe they'll just say it's not a problem at all,
but you can probably still get to them. To Doug's
point underlying values, right, do they care about having a clean,
prosperous environment in the future. That's like a very fundamental
I think most people would agree on. Right, we have
to start at that building block. Then we started that
building block, but I do believe those building blocks are
(46:29):
still there.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Let's get to one final listener comment here.
Speaker 9 (46:34):
Hi there, my name's Laith. I'm from the great city
of Concord, New Hampshire. So over the summer I worked
for Capital Region Habitat for Humanity, great organization, met some
great people. We do some great work. We build houses,
repair houses for people in need. And I've found that
through volunteering you meet some really great people and can
(46:57):
have conversations that you normally wouldn't just out in the wild.
And I was wondering if you consider volunteering, and I
wish there were more visibility for this, because you know,
organizations like this really do need more people. If that's
a way to build the sort of foundation to start
political conversations, for example.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
That's a great point. Habitat is also an incredible organization.
And let me ask you, because you talk about doing
it in the summer. You're a student, I am, yes,
what what year are you?
Speaker 9 (47:27):
I'm a junior in Saint Paul's.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
School in high school.
Speaker 9 (47:31):
In high school? Y?
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Wow, great, great, thank you for coming, Doug. What do
you think about that is?
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Is volunteering a way that people can start to have
these conversations across party lines and learn how to interact
with all kinds of different people.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Well, yes it is. I mean, this is the whole
part of social capital.
Speaker 6 (47:55):
How do we get people to come out to find
to connect with people?
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Do make it? Make it attractive? Because we know it's
hard out there.
Speaker 6 (48:04):
You have two working incomes for the most part, and
and and it's and it's it makes it harder for people.
But how do we make it more attractive for people
to volunteer? And even in our work with Braver Angels,
just give give me an hour a week or or
or give me small segments and and and that makes
it not only does it give people hope, but it
(48:25):
makes them feel connected to the to other people. And
it's so important. So I really appreciate that comment.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
I'm gonna just finally do a quick pull of the
three of you, since we're here in New Hampshire and
our listeners around the country are able to tap in
for a moment into the Granite State. A lot of
people ask me when they hear about the middle, which
by the way, is about the geographical middle, the philosophical middle,
the political middle, and also people that want to just
meet in the middle and talk to people across party lines.
(48:54):
But let's just talk about the middle, the political mid
every one second. Do you think, each of you that
the political middle still exists in this country?
Speaker 2 (49:02):
I just want a yes or a no from you?
Speaker 1 (49:04):
No, yes, oh, yes, all right, it's two to one.
Speaker 5 (49:10):
I guess you go on.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Well, I want to thank my guests.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Doug Teshner, member of Braver Angels and a former New
Hampshire State legislator, is also author of the book Beyond
the Politics of Contempt, Practical Steps to build Positive Relationships
in Divided Times. And A Brown, executive director of Citizens Count,
and Nick Kapadiche, host of NHBRS Civics one oh one,
And to our terrific audience, thank you all so very much.
(49:45):
Also a big thanks to nhbr's program director Emily Quirk,
the President CEO Jim Shackter, n hpr's events manager Zoe Mitchell,
our sound engineer Ethan Todd. To the Clay Pigeons String
Band for the great music, and to the crew here
at the Capital Center for the Arts and the BNA
Stage here in conquered New Hampshire. The Middle is brought
to you by Long Nook Media, distributed by Illinois Public
(50:06):
Media and Urbana Illinois, and produced by Harrison Patino, Danny,
Alexander Samburmustas, Brandon Condritz and John Barthur. Intern is Anka Dessler.
Our technical director is Steve Mork. Thank you so much
for listening. I'm Jeremy Hobson and I will talk to
you next week.
Speaker 18 (50:23):
I still what doesn't music? Colagy? Well, I work re
heard and I played my cards along.
Speaker 8 (50:34):
It's season.
Speaker 18 (50:35):
I aflay, He's the cursemassive in my leg. Will I'm
still it will bragging, drinking good, Hellia, be a friend
till my friends. It's something that I wanna be Alright,
Luke
Welcome to a special edition of The Middle in partnership
with NHPR. I'm Jeremy Hobson, coming to you from the
Capital Center for the Arts in Conquered New Hampshire. It
has been just over two months since the assassination of
the political activist and podcaster Charlie Kirk at a campus
(00:21):
event in Utah that was focused on debating controversial ideas,
and Kirk's murder sparked another national conversation about the tone
of our politics and our ability and willingness to talk
with and listen to one another, especially when we disagree.
Now we're in the state of New Hampshire, which is
the center of our national politics every four years when
(00:41):
they hold the first in the Nation primary.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
The people of this state.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Which has been a swing state for the last few decades,
are used to being around people with different political views.
They're also used to having face to face interaction with
national political candidates. But like all Americans, they're also on
social media, where it's common place to unfriends someone who's
on the other side politically, or start a fight that
you probably wouldn't start if the person we're standing right
(01:07):
in front of you.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
So this hour We're going to be talking about.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
What we can do to restore some civility to our politics,
our conversations about politics, and even just our interactions with friends,
neighbors and family. I am joined by three terrific guests
here in Conquered Doug Teshner, a member of Braver Angels
and a former New Hampshire State legislator. He's also the
author of the book Beyond the Politics of Contempt, Practical
Steps to Build Positive Relationships in Divided Times.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Doug, great to have you with us.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I'm delighted to be here, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
And also joining us is Anna Brown, who's executive director
of Citizens Count, a New Hampshire nonprofit that promotes civic engagement.
She's also executive director of the Warren B. Rudman Center
for Justice, Leadership and Public Service at the University of
New Hampshire Franklin Peer School of Law.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Did I get all that right now?
Speaker 4 (01:50):
The title nailed it?
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Thank you and Nick Kapadice with a nice short title,
co host and senior editor of New Hampshire Public Radio
Civics one oh one series.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Nick. Welcome to you as well.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
I'm delighted to be here, Jared, So you know.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
This topic was actually the first one we did about
two years ago when we started the Middle asking people
how you talk to people that you disagree with politically.
But since then, there have been two assassination attempts on
President Trump. There was the assassination of Melissa Hortman, the
House speaker in Minnesota, Charlie Kirk, obviously many other acts
(02:23):
of political violence in this country. Doug, I'm going to
start with you as a former lawmaker, how do you
think we got here to this point?
Speaker 3 (02:31):
Well, thank you, Jeremy.
Speaker 6 (02:33):
And it's so troubling to see where we are today,
even the latest data saying that thirty percent of Americans
think political violence is even going to be.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
Possible and necessary.
Speaker 6 (02:45):
And we can talk about social media algorithms, we can
talk about conflict entrepreneurs, people who are profiting by dividing us,
including foreign governments, and we can talk about people are
in silos, just some of the things we talk about
in our book.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I'm glad you mentioned social media. I'm sure we're going
to get to more about that. And how do things
look from your vantage point? And you are also on
a college campus at the University of News Hampshire. What's
the tenor of the political conversation right now.
Speaker 7 (03:14):
Absolutely so. One thing that I have noticed on the
U and H. Franklin Pier School of Law campus is
that our law students are surprisingly not very vocal about
what's going on. And I had a conversation.
Speaker 4 (03:27):
With a colleague about this earlier today.
Speaker 7 (03:30):
And obviously, you know, pro con, love hate, there's a
lot of unprecedented changes going on right now in the
law and the question is do these students are they
just is it just normalized since when they were kids,
you know, was when a lot of this really started
ramping up. Or is it because maybe there's a tone
that's being set that you know, for your professional your
(03:51):
future career. You know, you don't want to say the
wrong thing or step out of line or get put
in a box. So it's definitely something that I feel
there's sort of been that chilling effect on our campus.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
They're afraid maybe to get in trouble by saying something.
It's easier to say nothing. Yes, Nick, as we said,
you host the Civics one oh one podcast or NHBR,
how does Civics education do you think relate to this?
Speaker 8 (04:13):
I think it relates a great deal, Like Doug mentioned
when he said, you know, conflict entrepreneurs, that's an expression
that we should all be familiar with and should scare
all of us. People who make money, people who gain
power by breeding conflict among us.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Is that just like every podcaster at this point, I
want to.
Speaker 5 (04:28):
Say that I wouldn't say that.
Speaker 8 (04:31):
In my opinion, a conflict entrepreneur is somebody who is,
you know, let's just say hypothetically making money hand over
fist from seeing division happening on both the right and
the left. And I wouldn't say every podcaster out there,
but it is happening on social media. It is happening
everything we listen to you wherever you turn your radio,
(04:52):
you're going to hear these people saying this is an
emergency right now, we have to take care of it
right now.
Speaker 5 (04:57):
And that fear.
Speaker 8 (04:58):
Stops us from thinking about the stop sign at the
end of our block or local legislation, and let's just
think about big things over which we have no control.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Well, the nationalization of our politics. You talk about the
stop sign at the end of the block. Is the
stop sign at the end of the block and getting
as much attention as Trump tearing down the East wing
of the White House.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
I would say no.
Speaker 7 (05:23):
And this is something that I've observed in my own
home city of Manchester and New Hampshire as well. And
I think when social media first came out Arab Spring,
everyone thought this is going to bring everyone in far
flong corners of the world together. But I think that
it encourages people to associate with things and identify with
a community that is way too far flong, instead of
(05:43):
the people who are literally next to them. And there's
data that shows we are talking to our physical neighbors
less than we work decades ago.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Right, Doug, you're the politician on this stage, the former politician.
Is there a difference do you think between the ordinary
people and how they interact and the political class.
Speaker 6 (06:02):
Well, I certainly think that's true, and I think a
lot of people are disincentivized from running for politics.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
You know, when I was in the.
Speaker 6 (06:10):
Legislature, we used to have pro choice Republicans, pro life Democrats.
But now you better still hoe the party line. It's
a lot harder, and also people on your side are
coming after.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
You if you don't.
Speaker 6 (06:23):
If you don't stick to your side and stick to
the party line, you're going to find yourself somehow lost
in the middle for lack of a better term.
Speaker 1 (06:32):
Why do you think that is? Why are people so
telling the party line more than they used to?
Speaker 6 (06:39):
Well, I think it's the power of the conflict entrepreneurs.
I think it's the social media algorithms are pushing people
to the side.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
You know, there's a wonderful report that was done and it.
Speaker 6 (06:50):
Talked about how people on the farm the extremes are
like driving the agenda where a lot of people are
kind of not so worried. They're they're worried about why
it's so much going on with the extremes and when
people are not hearing about it from sort of the
middle and those other voices.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
Nick, do people have to take civics in this country?
Speaker 8 (07:13):
Well, civics education is almost you know, like everything in education,
it's on a state by state basis. And what's interesting
right now the stat that I love telling everyone and
everyone should know it. In twenty sixteen, the United States
spent fifty dollars per student per year on STEM.
Speaker 5 (07:30):
Education science, technology, engineering, and math.
Speaker 8 (07:33):
For each student for civics, it's spent five cents fifty
dollars to five cents. Now that number has been up
to fifty cents, not bad times ten But we have
traditionally not funded civics and civics education in the United States,
So it falls to the state level to fill those gaps.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well, and it connect the dots there.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Why does it matter for the tone of our politics
if people are not taking classes about how the government works.
Speaker 7 (08:01):
Well, first of all, it's going to allow misinformation and
disinformation to proliferate if you just don't have some basic
fundamental understanding. But I think it's also true that humanities
social studies in general, that's where you're going to learn
how to disagree with people, how to make arguments in
one direction or another, how to relate to stories you
(08:22):
might not have heard before. So I think it's not
just knowing this sort of ab this I'm just a
bill from schoolhouse Rock, but also these other skills that
are part of Okay, we have to live in a
society together.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Well, and when we talk about this right now, obviously
we're not having this discussion in a vacuum. President Trump
has called his opponent's political enemies. He's called them enemies,
he's called them worse than enemies. But doesn't this nastiness
go way beyond President Trump.
Speaker 6 (08:52):
I think it does. I mean, we are accountable as citizens.
We're allowing this kind of behavior. And this where it
plays into the social media algorithms. It's not just social media,
it's the algorithms because they drive you to.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
The extremes, they drive you to fear.
Speaker 6 (09:10):
It's all designed to keep you on online longer so
that you get more advertising, but it's not really encouraging
the kind of dialogue.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
That's so important.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Nick.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
One of the things that I love about doing this
show is that we get to do topics that are
not political at all. Whether we talk about artificial intelligence
or whether we talk about GLP one drugs. Are there
things that you find that there's broad agreement on, even
across the party lines.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
Absolutely.
Speaker 8 (09:40):
The one thing that I have seen in doing the
show for seven years now that both sides agree upon
one percent is that we need more civics education in
the United States, which is interesting, right, Which is very
interesting because if you'll forgive me for asking, like, what's
the point of learning how a bill becomes a law?
If that is not being practiced in front of us
on the federal level. There's so many things that we
(10:03):
learn in Sevi's class and to try it and true,
like I took it in eighth grade, that you don't
see happening.
Speaker 5 (10:08):
Rules are being broken.
Speaker 8 (10:09):
If the Constitution is a legal document, it has been
interpreted by brilliant and very wealthy legal minds for two
hundred odd years. We're going to get to some confusing
places where all the things we learned about in eighth
grade just.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Don't matter, and then our show we're just going to
have to cancel it.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Hope not.
Speaker 5 (10:26):
I hope, So, I hope not too.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Jeremy, Anna, what do you think?
Speaker 4 (10:29):
Well, it's interesting.
Speaker 7 (10:30):
I love digging through polls sometimes, and so you're talking
about what if people find agreement on and I love
finding these gems in polls. We were just talking recently
in New Hampshire, where we are now. There was a
poll that came out just a few months ago that
showed ninety five percent of people in our state agree
that we should ban stock trading for members of Congress.
(10:52):
It was roughly three quarters. It was over seventy percent
of people agreed in New Hampshire that we should have
a bell to bell ban on cell phones in schools.
So I think that there absolutely are areas of agreement
that we can find and move forward on, but they're
just not elevated and or you know, they they would
not benefit, as you called it, conflict entrepreneurs. You know,
(11:13):
in some ways, having division, having systems that don't work
so well sometimes benefit people who are donating a lot
of campaign funds to art decision makers.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Interestingly, by the way, banning cell phones and schools is
something that has been adopted in both Republican and Democratic
led states recently, So that's loading ours, right, Yes, as
long as you're doing it to people under eighteen, I
feel like they can do whatever they want. Like nobody
under eighteen can have a gun, everybody, okay with that? Yeah,
that's fine, Okay, nobody can have their phone in school.
I mean it is interesting though politicians are more than
(11:42):
happy to make rules.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
For young people.
Speaker 4 (11:44):
Sometimes that's where it starts.
Speaker 9 (11:45):
Though.
Speaker 7 (11:45):
Think about with cigarettes, right, that's started under age eighteen
and now we have a lot more regulations.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
That's true, yes, Doug.
Speaker 6 (11:52):
When you bring people from different political points of view,
they actually find that they agree on more than they realize.
People agree on more than the fundamental values of our country.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
But they're so polarized, and we just.
Speaker 6 (12:06):
Have to highlight to people that there's so much more
that we agree on than we disagree on, and this
is really essential to what's going to take for us
to hold our country together.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
We'll stand by because in a moment we're going to
talk about what the rest of America might learn about
how politics are done here in New Hampshire, and we're
going to hear from members of our live audience. You're
listening to a special edition of the Middle from Conquered
New Hampshire. Welcome back to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
(13:03):
We're coming to you this week from the Capital Center
for the Arts and Conquered New Hampshire in partnership with NHPR,
talking about restoring civility to our politics. I'm joined by
Doug Teshner, member of the Braver Angels and a former
New Hampshire State Legislator, Anna Brown, executive director of Citizens Count,
and Nick Kapadich, co host and senior editor of New
Hampshire Public Radios Civics one oh one, and we're going
(13:24):
to be taking some questions for the audience.
Speaker 2 (13:25):
But before we do that, let's talk about where we are.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Anna, this is a state, New Hampshire, part of New England,
which is a little bit different than the rest of
the country when it comes to the tone of our politics.
I'll note that New Hampshire has a Republican governor two
Democrats right now in the Senate. Neighboring Massachusetts recently had
a moderate Republican governor who was very popular in that state,
(13:49):
Charlie Baker. Now there's a Democrat in charge of Massachusetts.
The governor Vermont is a Republican. What is different here?
Speaker 7 (13:55):
I think that above all we have this very independent
minded street. Maybe it's because this is where the Revolution started, right,
so we were all kind of raised in this culture
of being independent. But I also think it is because
we have a much more face to face political reality,
because we're smaller states, and because in New Hampshire, for example,
(14:17):
we have a citizen legislature, four hundred people. They're paid
one hundred dollars a year plus mileage, so they're basically volunteers.
So I often joke that Dunkin Donuts and Market Basket
are as much the halls of democracy as our state house,
because you're probably going to know the person representing you,
and we had the first in the nation presidential primary,
and growing up, everybody I knew my own age kids
(14:39):
would go see this or that presidential candidate, and I
think that they're that culture of like, oh, we evaluate
people for who they are.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
We don't just vote the party line.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Even though every other state tries to take that away
from you every four years, but you still got it.
Speaker 4 (14:54):
I will fight for New Hampshire.
Speaker 1 (14:55):
Yeah, okay, Doug, what do you think I mean you
were a member of that city legislature.
Speaker 6 (15:01):
Well, I think yes, we have certain advantages that were
a small state in a big legislature. I think we're
lucky in the state in a lot of ways. But
we you know, we have to work on it. We
all have to work on it to keep it better.
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Nick, what about you, You, like me, are originally from
the great Land of Lincoln, the state of Illinois. Do
you think that things are different here in New Hampshire.
Speaker 10 (15:21):
Oh?
Speaker 8 (15:22):
Yeah, Well see I was born in normal Illinois, but
I moved here. I got out of there at the
age of five and I moved here to sunny New Hampshire.
I was I was absolutely shocked when I first even
as a kid, I was shocked at Candlepin Bowling, and
I was shocked at the idea of a citizen legislature.
The fact that we are one of the largest governing
bodies in the western world, four hundred and twenty four
people for the state of New Hampshire. And it's easy
(15:44):
for me to sort of, you know, poo poo that
and say, oh, that's just kind of ridiculous, But it
is very cool to know that I can go down
the street and talk to my elected representative. Can this
be replicated in other states? I have absolutely no idea,
but I do think it's you're not going to be
able to have as much effect on a federal level
as you are on a state level, which is why
you know everything we're talking about tonight, including how to
(16:06):
disagree with people.
Speaker 5 (16:07):
It's got to start with the people you're.
Speaker 8 (16:08):
In a room with, and then eventually you can go
to the broader, you know, online world where you're fighting
with everybody else.
Speaker 1 (16:15):
But you got to start local first, right, I mean, Doug,
one of the things you talk about in your book
is that people are less involved in their local communities
than they used to be.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
What do you think are the consequences of that?
Speaker 6 (16:25):
Well, I mean this is the one on New Hampshire's
own Robert Putnam wrote the book Bowling Alone and another book,
The Upswing, and it's just a decline of social capital
and this is a big, big concern. And he talks
about where eye culture as opposed to a wee culture,
and he actually traces this going back to the Gilded
Age late eighteen hundreds up until the nineteen sixties was
(16:49):
the rise of the we culture.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
And now he's watched the.
Speaker 6 (16:52):
Decline again starting in the nineteen sixties, and what's it
going to take to get another upswing? And so it's
deeper than politics. I mean, I think you see people
giving people the finger on the highway, and you'd.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
See that's in Massachusetts.
Speaker 6 (17:06):
I think, okay, but people, you know, more people are
angry and upset and disconnected from people, and we need
It's deeper than politics. But politics is obviously where the
front line of this battle is being fought.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
So you know, we've heard a few times about social
media this hour, and Nick, I want to ask you
about that and the role specifically that social media is
playing all of this, because even if you're having a
conversation now and I'm a member of you know, I
have been a member in the course of my life
of these Facebook groups in the neighborhood that you live in,
(17:46):
which are like just cesspools of hatred towards parking and
the local restaurant doesn't accept this or that, or how
could the price be this high for this?
Speaker 2 (17:56):
It's like that has nothing to do with politics.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
But it gets pretty ugly now, and that's your local community.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Well yeah, well I love those cess pools and they're
fun to watch.
Speaker 8 (18:05):
Right. My next door is binging as we speak, right,
But I mean, I think it starts in childhood. And
this is why I've always I've been talking with my
co host Haan a lot about how we need a
new word for civics because we hear civics and it
sounds a bit dull, and we think it's how Bill
becomes love. But civics is really just that, like being
able to talk to somebody else, being able to respect
(18:25):
somebody else.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
I was rewatching.
Speaker 8 (18:27):
Witness the other night building a barn together, right, So
like things that we do together in our community. That
is what citizenship is. The word citizen just means person
in a town, like a citizen is just somebody who
is part of their community. An online community is no
replacement for that.
Speaker 3 (18:43):
Right.
Speaker 8 (18:43):
I have a neighbor I disagree with every day, but
he picks up my mail one I'm out of town.
Speaker 5 (18:48):
Right.
Speaker 8 (18:48):
That is what civics is. Civics is second grade learning
how to share toys. Civics is everything that we do,
and I think we need to sort of embrace that,
and then that will lead to civil discourse if we
follow a couple of rules which are not being followed online.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
Okay, let's get to some audience comments.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
I'm sure that our New Hampshire audience is not going
to be shy about coming forward to tell us what
you think about this. You can just come right down
here and Zoe will bring the mic to you.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Here we go. Why don't you tell me your name
and what town you're coming from.
Speaker 11 (19:21):
My name is Lori Carrie. I'm from Bosquin, New Hampshire.
First of all, thank you Doug. You taught me at
Braver Angels and I am a member. But my question
is this, Should we get rid of political parties because
is that part of what is dividing us? Wouldn't it
be better if we were just independence all of us?
Speaker 2 (19:42):
Great question? Anna Brown I'm going to go to you. Sure.
Speaker 7 (19:45):
Well, that's interesting because one of the things that I
think New Hampshire does well a little bit of our
secret sauce. Again, we haven't talked about open primaries where
you do not have to be a member.
Speaker 4 (19:55):
Of a party to go in and pick up the ballot.
Speaker 7 (19:58):
If you're registered independent, you can show up on primary
and say I'm going to vote for the Democrats, I'm
going to vote for the Republicans.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
There's also a group in New Hampshire.
Speaker 7 (20:04):
Together that came up with this idea of we should
have a ballot of all the parties together, so you
can in the congressional race vote left. Maybe in the
governor you want to pick out of these Republican candidates.
So I think there are ideas to do that that
could that are helpful because certainly also in primaries you
get that extrusion to more extreme voters, more extreme candidates.
Speaker 4 (20:24):
That being said, completely getting rid of the parties.
Speaker 7 (20:27):
I almost want to toss this to you, Nick, because
I feel like there was so much writing among the
founding fathers about the dangerous of factions, but how also
they're perhaps inevitable.
Speaker 8 (20:35):
Yeah, factions are federalists ten. The Federalist paper. Federalist ten
is all about factions, that they're terrible and they are inevitable.
As long as we have winner take all first past
the post voting in the United States, we are going.
Speaker 5 (20:48):
To have two parties. There's a famous law.
Speaker 8 (20:51):
It's not really a law law, but it's a law
called Duverger's law, which is we are destined in the
way that we do voting now in the United States
and elections to have a two party system. I would
love to get rid of hyperpartisanship, but I don't think
the elimination of the parties is possible unless we have
a new constitution.
Speaker 2 (21:10):
Doug, what do you think?
Speaker 6 (21:11):
Oh, I think it's really difficult because the parties have
ingrained they're ingrained in the political system and do I mean,
I think things like open primaries could be could be interesting,
but I think it's going to be really hard to
get rid of the parties from a practical point of view.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
You know, we had a guest on our show over
a year ago who was the Senate I believe co
majority leader in Alaska, a Republican, very moderate, who said
that she would not have been able to be elected
if it weren't for the rank choice voting that they
(21:49):
put in place in Alaska that there was then a
big movement to get rid of. And in fact, in
many places where they put it in the party that
suffers from it ends up not wanting it.
Speaker 8 (21:59):
Nick, I just have follow to that, which is so
the reason we vote in a secret ballot in the
United States. We used to call it the Australian ballot.
We stole it from Australia. But I think Australia could
teach us a thing or two about democracy because they
have ranked choice voting, they have very diverse parties, and
everybody has a holiday for elections. Yes, and they have
a democracy sausage or everybody from different parties grill sausages
(22:21):
and makes fun of the other persons sausages.
Speaker 5 (22:24):
It's like a.
Speaker 8 (22:25):
Holiday with drums and pageantry and fun. I would argue that,
you know, we took a lesson when we took the
secret ballot from them.
Speaker 5 (22:32):
We should, you know, maybe consider some other lessons as well.
Speaker 1 (22:34):
Okay, let's go to another audience question or comment.
Speaker 12 (22:37):
Hello.
Speaker 10 (22:38):
My name is Chip Underhill. I live in Alton, New Hampshire,
and I agree that politics is the front line of
this conversation, I agree that politics is actually far larger
than that, and the larger part is the morality and ethics,
two words I never hear used in this conversation. And
I think that we as a society have abandoned any
(23:02):
social contract. So if you are a parent, if you
are a neighbor, go to the social contract. My god,
what is ethical? What is moral? I've lost friends because
they think I'm Democrat and they're Republican. I could be
a Republican in five seconds, but the morality difference between
(23:22):
the two is so extreme.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Right now, where do you think that that should come from?
What part of our society can instill the morality and
the ethics? Are you talking about a religious organization or like,
where where should people be getting that from?
Speaker 13 (23:38):
Fabulous question.
Speaker 10 (23:39):
It starts at the top, and that's where it's ending
right now. But meanwhile, on a local level, we're all
so private, we're all so territorial and worried about our
own investments and defenses, and we have given up. We've
just sort.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Of become numb.
Speaker 10 (23:58):
And I challenge us all to become more aware of
the ethics and the morality of this and make a
decision based on that.
Speaker 2 (24:05):
Thank you so much for that.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
I'm gonna yeah, I just want to get a thought
from Nick about that. Since you helped teach people about
the things they ought to know to survive in society,
what about that?
Speaker 5 (24:20):
Do you have to talk? You done shows nodding along and.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well no, but I mean here, have you done shows
on ethics and morality?
Speaker 8 (24:26):
Well, you know, not particularly. But what's interesting is we
do a lot of shows on the concept of originalism,
the concept of.
Speaker 5 (24:33):
Natural rights, and these things.
Speaker 8 (24:35):
It may sound like it's unrelated, but when we're talking
we're about to have the two hundred and fiftieth anniversary,
when we are looking at things like what did the
framers intend and what did they want? A lot of
the things they intended and wanted, we're moral and ethical things,
you know, natural rights, Who are we How to be
kind to your neighbor, how to have a conversation with
your neighbor. We are a nation built on protest and disagreement,
(24:58):
That's how we got here. So to do that ethically,
to argue ethically and with morality, it's something that.
Speaker 5 (25:05):
The people who built this country would have wanted.
Speaker 8 (25:07):
And I agree, we do not see that much at all.
Speaker 6 (25:11):
We want people to look at your own values, look
at yourself, look at your heart. That's where it's going
to start. It's going to start with or are your
values important to you? And are you living your values
in terms of how are you treating other people across
politics and otherwise.
Speaker 3 (25:28):
But it starts from inside each of us, Anna, I.
Speaker 7 (25:32):
Just want to jump in here because this is another
interesting dynamic is there was a state legislator who put
forward a bill a few years ago that was going
to require a philosophy course for high schoolers. And when
I first said this, I was like, this is going nowhere,
because like the idea of mandating additional things in high
school in New Hampshire is not popular. But when I
read the rationale, it was very interesting because he said,
we are a very non religious state, and so how
(25:54):
are we teaching kids to evaluate right and wrong and
so on?
Speaker 4 (25:59):
So that really is really compelling to me.
Speaker 7 (26:01):
And I think that there's also as you said, I mean,
Jeffrey Rosen from the Constitution Center just wrote a whole
book about how when the Founders talked about the pursuit
of happiness, they were actually talking about.
Speaker 4 (26:11):
The pursuit of these virtues in a very.
Speaker 7 (26:14):
Classical philosophical sense, and so I think that there is
something there about are we teaching our kids to value
things if it's in the absence of organized religion, what
does that look like? And also everyone going to church regularly,
that was more of that social capital, right, So I'm
not claiming everyone should suddenly start going to church, but
there's a piece there well.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
And I think one of the things that we've learned
in recent years as sort of norms have been tested,
is how much of our democracy relies on people operating
in good faith. That there might not be a law
that says you can't do this, but we've just that's
just the way it's been done.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
So it's worked that way.
Speaker 7 (26:49):
Yes, So many of our checks and balances we've seen
and guardrails have been about courageous people standing up and
standing on principle in the face of others, people who
are looking to eroad that or trample on that. And
most democracies fail not because of a military coup, but
because of people working on the inside and slowly just
(27:11):
taking power and people don't stand up to them.
Speaker 2 (27:13):
Let's go to another audience question or comment.
Speaker 14 (27:16):
Hi, my name is Cynthia Nichols. I'm from Grantham. I'm
worried about the silos, the silos of information that we're
getting and thinking about what you were just talking about.
I wonder if we had more critical thinking in schools
and more philosophy, people could evaluate that information better. And
(27:37):
then the polarization of the way people are living. They
don't understand each other's lives. So I'm an r and
care manager and I take care of people on both
ends of the spectrum. So people with a lot of
wealth don't understand what it's like to be without that wealth.
So basically the silos, how do we bridge the gap
between that?
Speaker 2 (27:56):
Uh, Doug go ahead, Well, this is the key.
Speaker 6 (27:59):
I mean, this means we have all got to get
outside of our bubbles. I mean, you know, at the
conclusion of our book, we said the most important thing
you can do is go find somebody on the other side.
Go ask them about their life, ask them about their hobbies,
ask him about their work, and ask them about how
they came to their political views, and then share the
(28:22):
same and we talk about this as change in the country,
two people at a time. I just think this is
so vital for people to go beyond their silos.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Yeah, Nick, it just a follow to that.
Speaker 5 (28:33):
I absolutely agree, Doug.
Speaker 8 (28:34):
We were recently talking to a gentleman named Ben Klutzi
who teaches I believe it's in Minneapolis, and he says,
to be able to talk to somebody with whom you disagree,
who you might not even be in the same political
frame as them, three rules must be followed, and they
are like Adaman time, right, You've got to follow these
three rules. Number one is respect. If I'm talking to you,
I must talk to you with respect. No matter how
(28:55):
much I disagree with you, I must treat you with respect.
Number two is honesty.
Speaker 5 (28:59):
You have to tell the truth about why you feel
the way you feel.
Speaker 8 (29:02):
Don't shroud it and some well I'm worried about this
or that. Tell the truth about what you feel. And
number three is curiosity. You can't fake it. You have
to know why the person feels this way, why they
want X to happen. At a political level, if you
obey those three rules and nobody's trying to win, you
will actually be able to have a conversation with somebody else.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Let's go to one more comment here from another listener.
Speaker 13 (29:29):
Yeah, thanks, very much. My name is Eric Turr, and
I am one of those volunteer slash minimally paid state
representatives here in the state. Thank you for your serving
and Representatives Manos and Corman are here as well. There's
a conflict between what I think I hear people wanting
when I go around knocking on doors, which is, you know,
(29:52):
what are you going to do to lower the tension?
What are you going to do to solve this conflict?
We don't like the way it feels, and that's on
both sides. But then you turn around to run for office,
and you know, the algorithms are all, as you said,
pushing you know, conflict. They're pushing you know division, and
it's very hard to raise the profile I guess of
non division because it's hard to see and I didn't know.
(30:14):
Maybe through shows like this, maybe through things like a caucus,
but any other ideas for basically how to make non
division more visible and more shareable online?
Speaker 2 (30:23):
Can I just ask you a follow up question?
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Do you find that it's difficult to be a braver
angel in the legislature? Do you have a hard time
recruiting other members? Do people want us? Do they find
it's easier to be a politician when you just go
to the extremes and do the clickbait and play the algorithms.
Speaker 13 (30:43):
I mean, I'll say, so far, it's been interesting why
people come to this, you know, because we're not a
legislative caucus that takes positions on bills. So people come
to it for whatever reason they're there. And I've been
impressed at the degree to which some of our hard
partisans show up at our events, just like people who
you'd naturally associate with sort of the middle, you know.
(31:05):
And so I don't think everyone has the same idea
in their head about what this is, but I think
they're all trying to find something better than what, you know, what.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
Their experience that would be.
Speaker 13 (31:15):
That would be my guess. And it was easier when
our numbers were close.
Speaker 12 (31:18):
I will say that.
Speaker 1 (31:19):
Yeah. Stand by because in a moment we're going to
talk about some more solutions. You're listening to The Middle
coming to you from Concord, New Hampshire in association with NHPR.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
This is the Middle.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
I'm Jeremy Hobson at the Capital Center for the Arts
and Conquered New Hampshire this week in partnership with NHPR,
and we are talking about how we can restore civility
to our politics. I'm joined by Anna Brown, executive director
of Citizens Count, Nick Kapadich, co host and senior editor
of Newmpshire Public Radio Civics one oh one, and Doug Teshner,
a member of Braver Angels and a former New Hampshire
state legislator. Before we go back to the audience, let's
(32:26):
talk about some of the solutions, because I know you've
all thought about this. Nick, on an individual level, what
do you think people can do to have better conversations
with people they disagree with.
Speaker 8 (32:37):
For me, the most important thing, and I got to
give credit to Jen Murcia who was in our episode
about political framing, for me, the most important thing is
that we don't have to agree on anything, but we
have to agree on what we call something. For an example,
you brought up the White House earlier on if somebody said,
if somebody referred to what happened to the East wing
of the White House this week, and they refer to
(33:00):
it as a you know, the people's house demolished and
paid for by.
Speaker 5 (33:04):
Bribes from rich billionaires around the world.
Speaker 8 (33:07):
Somebody called said that that person will never be able
to have a conversation with somebody who says this is
an important, necessary upgrade to allowing our you know, more
people to come to the United States and visit in dignitaries,
to visit the White House, because because one person says
an upgrade, the other person says an illegal demolishing. If
we don't have the word for something, you know, somebody
can call immigration, you know, a human crisis, and somebody
(33:29):
else can call it an a legal invasion.
Speaker 5 (33:32):
Right. If we don't have the right, agreed upon language
for what.
Speaker 8 (33:35):
We call what we are seeing in front of our
very eyes, we don't have a truth that we can
agree upon that is right there in front of us,
there is no way that we can begin to have
a conversation with somebody else.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
But anna, isn't that now?
Speaker 1 (33:47):
Like rule number one for political strategists is just change
the terminology. Don't call it, you know, climate change, call
it something that's less scary to people, or don't you know.
There are all these examples of like Frank Luntz coming
up with a new term of how we can describe
something so that you know, it's.
Speaker 2 (34:06):
Not partial birth abortion, it's.
Speaker 4 (34:07):
You know, you know what I mean absolutely.
Speaker 7 (34:09):
I think that a sort of call to actions because
we're like, what can individuals do? Was the original question,
I believe is just be aware of your own language
because it is true that the person listening to you.
Because our brains love shortcuts, right for evolutionary purposes, you
need to know is this person a threat to me?
Or are they part of my tribe? So you're going
to look for all of the cues to give you
(34:29):
your brain a shortcut to safety. So if you're trying
to have an open conversation with someone, just try to
make their job a little bit harder. Which, yeah, it's
policing language, it's semantics, but this is I think this
is this is where we're at as people have been
given too many clear cues of Okay, if they said
illegal immigrant, okay, they're they're Republican, Okay, they said undocumented
(34:50):
asylum seeker, they are definitely Democrat. And sometimes when you're
just speaking, it just comes out of your mouth and
you're not really thinking about that in that way. But
here's the other thing. I will say that if you
want to have these met conversations, you cannot go in
with your goal to be that change that person's mind.
Speaker 4 (35:05):
Well humans can. We can smell it.
Speaker 7 (35:07):
We can smell it like bacon on the fryar in
the morning, and it just will not work. So it's
this sounds so hard, and practicing this as an individual
is very hard, but you have to. When you start
a conversation with someone, you have to legitimately be open
to them changing your mind or you won't find any
common ground with them either.
Speaker 1 (35:27):
Than just listening to what they have to say and
being actually curious about it. As usual, my favorite part
about this show has been the amazing audience questions and comments.
As wonderful as our esteemed guests are, I want to
get to more of these, so come on back down
and let's let's do that. I also love the idea
that I have no idea what you're going to say,
(35:48):
and we don't know where we're going to go with this.
Speaker 12 (35:50):
Hi, my name's Bert Cooper. I'm from Concord, New Hampshire,
and I don't often get a chance to meet with
people from the other side, but I did when we
had a local issue in Conquered and involved schools, and
people from both sides of the political aisle felt that
they had us issues that they wanted to deal with
(36:13):
and it was a situation where we had to come
up with a compromise amongst the group who were from
political extremes. And you know, it was one of the
few situations where you get a chance to talk with
the other people. The other opportunity for that is at
the polls on election day. I volunteer at the polls
(36:35):
as a legal observer at the polls, and election day
that's like one of the few times I get to
talk with the people on the other side. I mean,
it's just to me. I think the idea of having
political events where you're there in person is really important.
And I think the idea of having a national election
(36:56):
day that's a holiday that everyone goes to the polls,
I think that would help in some small degree to
get us talking once again, because you'll talk about the
school issues, you'll talk about the local issues, you'll talk
about taxes. Then you'll find out, you know, there's other
issues that are in common too, So I think we
(37:17):
should think about that as an important way to gather
the population together.
Speaker 1 (37:22):
That just reminded me of the other thing that we
all have to do as our civic duty that makes
us come together with people that may not agree, and
that is jury duty, where by the way, everybody has
to reach the same conclusion at the end, so we
have to actually be able to convince each other.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
Doug, you wanted to say something, well, I.
Speaker 6 (37:37):
Just think citizen led solutions, which is really what he
talked about, working on community problems with your neighbors. This
is so important and it's part of the reason now
that people aren't so much in churches and roadary clubs,
but when people come together to solve problems, it can
be so important.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
Another member of the.
Speaker 15 (37:58):
Audience here, Hi, I'm Rachel from Lebanon, New Hampshire, and
Robert Putnam came up earlier, and as we know from
his work, social and community connection is an early link
in the chain that leads.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
To a strong civil society.
Speaker 15 (38:11):
And so to me, increasing social connection is a way
to an action that we can take to combat the
US versus them mentality that we're facing these days. So
I plan community events where I live up in the
Upper Valley, which is New Hampshire and Vermont, and it
seems like people are really desperate for something to do
and for human connection. But still some folks will tell
(38:31):
me they sit in their car and they're just anxious
to come in to something like a happy hour, you know,
which is pretty low key, and so it can be
hard to get them to come off the couch, out
of their car and into these events. So to me,
from my experience, I think that some folks lost like
the muscle of being a joiner and going out and
trying new things. And also I think it's just there's
(38:52):
really real significant financial and family pressures now that make
it hard for people to have their basic needs met,
let alone to have time and energy.
Speaker 4 (39:01):
After work to go socialize.
Speaker 15 (39:03):
So do you think that having a greater social safety
net so that people don't have to struggle as hard
just to get through the day would allow us to
have more energy to invest in our local communities.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
Great question, And Nick, I wonder though, if we did
have more time, would we just waste it doom scrolling
on social media or would we actually know out And me,
I'm just.
Speaker 5 (39:30):
No, we really would.
Speaker 8 (39:31):
I mean, I spend way too much time on the score.
I was just thinking kind of wistfully, Doug, when you
were talking about how my father and I used to
argue about so much stuff when I grew up in
the back of a Honda Cord listening to Rush Limbaugh
and by the time my father died, I'd rather be
occupying Wall Street bumper sticker. So what he always taught
me was the importance of being willing to change, and
(39:53):
being curious and just going out and having a good
time with other people.
Speaker 5 (39:57):
I mean, that's not what we're here on stage to
talk about.
Speaker 8 (40:00):
But like the abandonment of the third space in the world,
not just the United States, is so depressing to me.
The bar, the hangout, the after school place, kids playing
with each other in the playground. Like, if we don't
have that, we do lose that muscle. We do lose
that muscle, and it needs to be strengthened. And me
playing Slay the Spy on my phone is not helping.
(40:21):
So I really, I think we should all work out
that muscle, because if we do, we're going to be
able to talk to each other.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
I just want to bring up the fact that you know,
I know, we all want to forget about it now
that it even ever happened, but we are just a
couple of years out of a global pandemic that did
change our ability to go do those things and that
has had a lasting effect, and I wonder if five
years from now will be a little more back to
the way that we were before the pandemic.
Speaker 15 (40:47):
Amma.
Speaker 7 (40:47):
I just when I was hearing that and hearing about
you know, people sitting in their cars and being anxious,
made me think of conversations that we have once again
had at the un H Franklin Piers School of Law
about how some law students are coming now in now
and they're lacking some of those skills that you need
as a lawyer to be really really social and stand
(41:08):
up in front of a room and answer questions on
the spot, you know, and sort of on the fly
like that. And so I don't think that's just law students, right,
that's all of us. I think that that was a
deficit that all of us are up against. I think
about myself. I've struggled with anxiety in my life, and unfortunately,
the way out of that is to make yourself uncomfortable,
to make yourself do the uncomfortable things.
Speaker 4 (41:29):
It's not fun, but I think that there is.
Speaker 7 (41:32):
And also it's uncomfortable to have a conversation with someone
who doesn't agree with you, to be in a room
to play a sport you've never played before.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Okay, adults, we hate getting embarrassed.
Speaker 7 (41:41):
We hate making fools of ourselves and doing a new activity,
trying something new, Just like having that uncomfortable conversation, we're
gonna avoid it. So I think, I hate to say it,
but it's kind of on all of us to do
the uncomfortable things.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Let's get to another comment here.
Speaker 16 (41:59):
My name is Dean from Kintokook, New Hampshire. I find
it fascinating that we talk about bringing people together and
one of the number one ways that I had students
come together in my office was food because they have
to be quiet to listen when they put something in
their mouth. But at the same time, it gave them
time to think about what was actually being said, and
it was something that really brought them together to think.
(42:21):
And often sometimes it was just a listening learning experience
for me and sometimes the moderation, but mostly listening. And
I think that's a piece that we've been missing. But
what I often heard from them was frustration because they
were told things like that might be your truth, but
it's not the truth. They were told that they don't
understand their world. And what was frustrating for me is
(42:43):
I would listen to them speak, and then I would
listen to the adults that they would try to bring
their situations and thoughts and concerns to think about what
theyre's being said to them through the lens of how
they grew up, the lens of their politics, and they
didn't truly listen. Sometimes I think the adults needed to
be eating too. So my question is, how do we
(43:04):
create an environment for the younger generation where we don't
have to put food in people's mouth just to get
them to listen? And what steps would you suggest?
Speaker 6 (43:13):
Well, that's a great you know, one of the great
books of our time is Stephen Covey Seven Habits of
Highly Successful People, and he talks about listening to understand.
We don't listen to understand, we listen to reply, and
we aren't teaching this in schools. Listening is so vitally
(43:35):
important with humility and curiosity.
Speaker 8 (43:39):
We have met with teachers all across the country, specifically
social studies and civics teachers, and if there is one
group of people that is teaching america students how to
listen to understand, it is them, Like they are doing
the Lord's work out there, and there are people who
are teaching them to listen to reply.
Speaker 5 (43:56):
And it's not the people in their schools.
Speaker 8 (43:58):
It is the people on discord and on roadblocks and
then on YouTube that are teaching them to listen to
reply to win a fight as opposed to have a conversation.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
Let's get to another comment here.
Speaker 17 (44:09):
Hi, my name is Raws and from Nashua. I have
a question around as it seems that we are moving
further and further away from a shared reality within the
United States about what is and what isn't important, and
what is and what isn't actually true, And we're also
reaching a point where everybody thinks that certain things are
more important and are on a shorter timeframe that need
(44:31):
to be addressed now, whether that's the left of climate change,
whether that's the right with immigration. How do you contrast
those viewpoints where you have a set period of time
that people think something needs to be done at with
the realities of the current situation, especially if neither side
(44:52):
accepts the other science basis of fact.
Speaker 1 (44:54):
That is a very interesting question. Anna, I'm going to
ask you to answer that question.
Speaker 7 (45:00):
Usually when people talk to me about like how do
we get to a better place on policy making and
find agreement. My answer is usually to not start with
those super high pressure, highly partisan arguments. You know, you
don't start the conversation with someone about, you know, gun
laws or abortion, you start talking about the stop sign
at the end of your road. So when we're talking
at that level, though, and when you're talking about a
(45:22):
lack of shared reality, I think of a book I
read by journalists Monica Guzman, who has actually worked with
Braver Angels, and she talks that a lot of times
we all share the same values, we're just ranking them differently.
So I think that especially when you're in a conversation
with a person like that and you're just like completely
disagreeing about the timeline, the scope, is it a problem
(45:46):
or not, I think you can start from a place
of we can both agree that this is a problem,
that we do value this. What we're disagreeing is sort
of the ranking and the prioritizing, and then I think
that's where you can have more of that meaningful policy
conversation of what are the immediate next steps because it's
sort of it's then it's that acknowledgment that Okay, we
(46:08):
actually do both agree these are problems potentially, and granted
maybe they'll just say it's not a problem at all,
but you can probably still get to them. To Doug's
point underlying values, right, do they care about having a clean,
prosperous environment in the future. That's like a very fundamental
I think most people would agree on. Right, we have
to start at that building block. Then we started that
building block, but I do believe those building blocks are
(46:29):
still there.
Speaker 2 (46:30):
Let's get to one final listener comment here.
Speaker 9 (46:34):
Hi there, my name's Laith. I'm from the great city
of Concord, New Hampshire. So over the summer I worked
for Capital Region Habitat for Humanity, great organization, met some
great people. We do some great work. We build houses,
repair houses for people in need. And I've found that
through volunteering you meet some really great people and can
(46:57):
have conversations that you normally wouldn't just out in the wild.
And I was wondering if you consider volunteering, and I
wish there were more visibility for this, because you know,
organizations like this really do need more people. If that's
a way to build the sort of foundation to start
political conversations, for example.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
That's a great point. Habitat is also an incredible organization.
And let me ask you, because you talk about doing
it in the summer. You're a student, I am, yes,
what what year are you?
Speaker 9 (47:27):
I'm a junior in Saint Paul's.
Speaker 2 (47:30):
School in high school.
Speaker 9 (47:31):
In high school? Y?
Speaker 2 (47:32):
Wow, great, great, thank you for coming, Doug. What do
you think about that is?
Speaker 1 (47:43):
Is volunteering a way that people can start to have
these conversations across party lines and learn how to interact
with all kinds of different people.
Speaker 3 (47:52):
Well, yes it is. I mean, this is the whole
part of social capital.
Speaker 6 (47:55):
How do we get people to come out to find
to connect with people?
Speaker 3 (48:00):
Do make it? Make it attractive? Because we know it's
hard out there.
Speaker 6 (48:04):
You have two working incomes for the most part, and
and and it's and it's it makes it harder for people.
But how do we make it more attractive for people
to volunteer? And even in our work with Braver Angels,
just give give me an hour a week or or
or give me small segments and and and that makes
it not only does it give people hope, but it
(48:25):
makes them feel connected to the to other people. And
it's so important. So I really appreciate that comment.
Speaker 1 (48:33):
I'm gonna just finally do a quick pull of the
three of you, since we're here in New Hampshire and
our listeners around the country are able to tap in
for a moment into the Granite State. A lot of
people ask me when they hear about the middle, which
by the way, is about the geographical middle, the philosophical middle,
the political middle, and also people that want to just
meet in the middle and talk to people across party lines.
(48:54):
But let's just talk about the middle, the political mid
every one second. Do you think, each of you that
the political middle still exists in this country?
Speaker 2 (49:02):
I just want a yes or a no from you?
Speaker 1 (49:04):
No, yes, oh, yes, all right, it's two to one.
Speaker 5 (49:10):
I guess you go on.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Well, I want to thank my guests.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
Doug Teshner, member of Braver Angels and a former New
Hampshire State legislator, is also author of the book Beyond
the Politics of Contempt, Practical Steps to build Positive Relationships
in Divided Times. And A Brown, executive director of Citizens Count,
and Nick Kapadiche, host of NHBRS Civics one oh one,
And to our terrific audience, thank you all so very much.
(49:45):
Also a big thanks to nhbr's program director Emily Quirk,
the President CEO Jim Shackter, n hpr's events manager Zoe Mitchell,
our sound engineer Ethan Todd. To the Clay Pigeons String
Band for the great music, and to the crew here
at the Capital Center for the Arts and the BNA
Stage here in conquered New Hampshire. The Middle is brought
to you by Long Nook Media, distributed by Illinois Public
(50:06):
Media and Urbana Illinois, and produced by Harrison Patino, Danny,
Alexander Samburmustas, Brandon Condritz and John Barthur. Intern is Anka Dessler.
Our technical director is Steve Mork. Thank you so much
for listening. I'm Jeremy Hobson and I will talk to
you next week.
Speaker 18 (50:23):
I still what doesn't music? Colagy? Well, I work re
heard and I played my cards along.
Speaker 8 (50:34):
It's season.
Speaker 18 (50:35):
I aflay, He's the cursemassive in my leg. Will I'm
still it will bragging, drinking good, Hellia, be a friend
till my friends. It's something that I wanna be Alright,
Luke
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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