October 3, 2025 • 50 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we're asking how you feel about President Trump’s deployment of the National Guard in cities including Los Angeles, Washington, D.C. and Portland. Jeremy is joined by Major General (Ret.) Linda Singh of the Maryland Army National Guard and Mitchell Miller, Capitol Hill Correspondent for WTOP News. DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus calls from around the country. #nationalguard #Trump #chicago #dc #portland #memphis #crime #protests
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
the show and from you. Thanks for making a donation
at listen toothemiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, coming to you
from Las Studios in Pasadena, California, not far from downtown
Los Angeles, where just a few hundred National Guard troops
are still deployed. That's months after President Trump sent them
there to quell protests over immigration raids. That was the
start of Trump's use of the National Guard in cities
(00:39):
across the country, often over the objection of local officials.
And that's what we're going to talk about this hour
on the Middle. But first let me say hi to
our DJ Tolliver. Tolliver, we have some new listeners.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
This week, Yeah, a ton of them. We're now live
in the North Country of New York State or North
Country Public Radio all the way from Plattsburgh to Lake
George of Fort Drum. And we are also now live
across North Dakota on Prairie Public.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Awesome. Yes, in Prairie Public has been airing us, but
not live now. If you hear a lot of North
Dakotas on the Middle, you'll know why Welcome to everyone, including,
by the way, the people listening on North Country in Canada.
Bien venue. So on the show this hour, Portland, Oregon, Memphis, Tennessee.
These are the latest cities preparing for a deployment of
National Guard troops in their streets. Illinois Governor J. B.
(01:26):
Pritzker says he doesn't want the troops in Chicago, but
he said this week they are likely on the way
to protect immigrant facility immigration facilities. In Tennessee, the Republican
governor is asking for the troops to combat crime in Memphis,
which has one of the highest murder rates in America.
But in Oregon, leaders are resisting. Here's the Democratic Attorney
General Dan Rayfield.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
In America, we don't use our United States military on
our own citizens. But except in extreme circumstances, it's actually
an American if you think about it, to use the
military against our own citizens. But that's exactly what's happening
right now across our country, from California to DC, to Memphis,
(02:10):
to Illinois and now to Portland.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So this hour, we're asking you what you think of
President Trump's use of the National Guard in American cities.
We're taking your calls at eight four four four middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can write to us at listen toothmddle dot com.
But first a breather from politics. Enjoy it some of
your voicemails from last week's show about creativity and why
you create.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
My name is Johnny.
Speaker 6 (02:34):
I live in Vermont. I cook, I write poetry sometimes
I draw.
Speaker 7 (02:38):
I do lots of.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Creative things because we don't have enough time, and I
think it's important to human thought to make something out
of nothing.
Speaker 8 (02:47):
This is Melissa Trace. I live on Isle of Palms
in South Carolina h Garden, and I create beautiful spaces
with color and texture and fragrance and different heights. And
I do it because it makes me happy to see
the flowers, to be able to change it every season,
and to have people stop by and it makes them happy.
Speaker 9 (03:10):
My name is Sue On. I'm calling from Greensboro, North Carolina.
I think art is creation just as much as energy is.
I feel like without art, especially when you're trying to
navigate such a hectic time. I think art is the
only true form of magic that still kind of lingers
in this world.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
You're here yeah. Well, thanks to everyone who called in.
You can hear that full show. Bye subscribing to the
Middle wherever you listen to podcasts. So now back to
our hectic time and our question this hour, what do
you think of President Trump's use of the National Guard
in American cities? Tolliver the phone number please.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
You can deploy your calls at eight four four for
Middle that's eight four four four six four three three
five three, or you can write to us at Listen
to the Middle dot com or comment on our live
stream on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Joining us this hour retired Major General Linda Singh of
the Maryland Army National Guard. General Singh, welcome back to
the Middle.
Speaker 10 (04:01):
Thank you, Jeremy. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
And we're also joined by WTP News Capitol Hill correspondent
Mitchell Miller in Washington, d C. Mitchell, welcome to.
Speaker 11 (04:09):
You, Thank you very much, happy to join.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Well, before we get to the phones, general, seeing when
we planned to do this show, the cities that had
experienced National Guard troops under Trump where La where I am,
and Washington, D C? Where Mitchell is now we're talking
about Portland and Memphis and New Orleans and Chicago, Saint Louis,
maybe Baltimore. This is escalating very quickly. What do you
think of it?
Speaker 7 (04:32):
I think it becomes challenging because this is not sustainable.
Speaker 10 (04:36):
Number one.
Speaker 7 (04:38):
The second piece is that we're really not fixing the
systemic problem that exists.
Speaker 10 (04:44):
We're really trying to put a quick fix and push
it as a long term solution.
Speaker 7 (04:51):
And I think that we're really not focusing where we
need to be.
Speaker 10 (04:55):
We should be putting.
Speaker 7 (04:57):
More federal focus on how do we fix this stomach
issues that have been there for a long time. And
the National Guard is not designed for this, It's not
the reason why we typically deploy them on the streets,
and so I think the challenge becomes making sure that
we're trying to get at what the actual problem is
(05:19):
and what is the outcome.
Speaker 10 (05:20):
That we want to achieve.
Speaker 7 (05:22):
And I don't think that we're all on the same
sheet of music when it comes.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
To that, Mitchell Miller. When it comes to what the
National Guard troops are actually doing, they've been in Washington,
D C. For a couple of months, now, what are
they doing.
Speaker 12 (05:36):
Well, They're doing a lot of things that people are
kind of a little bit confused about. Initially they were
here on the very major thorough ways of the tourism
here in DC, on the National Mall near the major
tourist spots, and then over the last few weeks, they've
(05:57):
kind of been spreading out in various spots and they've
been collecting trash, they've been spreading mulch, they've been getting
into some of the communities. So it's interesting because over
the last couple of weeks particularly, we haven't seen them
as much in a public role as we did when
they first got here. Now, keep in mind, there are
(06:18):
more than twenty two hundred National Guard members, including the
DC National Guard as well as National Guard personnel from
eight states, so there's a lot of people here, but
there are a lot of people here in DC kind
of questioning what are they doing right now. Overall, however,
the crime has gone down during that crime emergency that
(06:41):
was announced by President Trump. Whether or not that was
directly as a result of the National Guard or because
of thousands of other federal law enforcement officials that have
flooded the streets in DC, we'll have to assess that
at a future date. But at any rate, it's interesting
because I have seen National Guard members walk around my
neighborhood actually, but I haven't seen them as prominently in
(07:04):
these tourist areas that we saw them before.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Interesting now, Washington d C. Is a unique situation just
because of the way that it's set up. But general
seek is there a difference in your mind between National
Guard troops being used in a state where the governor
asks for them, like Tennessee for example, versus a state
where the governor says, do not deploy them, like Illinois.
Speaker 7 (07:29):
Absolutely, I think there's a big difference. Well, one, if
we're being asked to deploy and the governor.
Speaker 10 (07:36):
Is not wanting us, that automatically kind of puts a
little bit of friction.
Speaker 7 (07:41):
It starts making the National Guard as the bad people
coming in and trying to take over, and that's not
what we want because many times the National Guard we
live in these communities that we get deployed to, and
while it may be a national Guard deploying from another
state into.
Speaker 10 (07:59):
A particular state, we still live within the community.
Speaker 7 (08:02):
And I think that that is going to get very
confusing to people, and I think it's going to or
I hope that it does not turn around and be
what we've seen when our Vietnam veterans were coming home
where people have turned against the military, and in particular
they turn against the National Guard because they don't really.
Speaker 10 (08:23):
Know any better.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Well, Mitchell, how do people feel about the National Guard
troops that are there in Washington.
Speaker 11 (08:32):
It's interesting.
Speaker 12 (08:32):
I think there's been a change in connection with the
fact when they first got here, frankly, there were some
people that were kind of nonplussed about it, But then
there were some people that.
Speaker 11 (08:43):
Were very angry about it.
Speaker 12 (08:45):
They didn't like the idea that the National Guard were
on patrol moving around DC when they felt that crime
had been coming down here in the District of Columbia. However,
I have noticed over the last few weeks that there
has been kind of a softening of the attitude towards
National Guard people.
Speaker 11 (09:04):
I mean personally.
Speaker 12 (09:05):
I have been somebody who lived in areas that had
lots of military personnel and I always would say hello
or welcome them. And I've talked to Senator Tim Kahman
of Virginia who happens to reside in DC for periods
of time during Congress, and he says he always kind
of says hello to them, And so I think a
(09:28):
lot of these personnel frankly don't really here or they're
not really they're not really sure what their role is. Obviously,
as I mentioned earlier, they have been given these jobs like,
you know, picking up the trash and spreading mulch and
doing other things, painting fences, that type of thing, but
that's not really what many Guard members really want to
(09:50):
do when they get deployed.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Well, general, seeing, what did you think when you heard
President Trump say the other day that too military leadership,
that he wants the military to use US cities as
training grounds.
Speaker 7 (10:07):
That's a very bad idea for many reasons. Number One,
we need to train. When we talk about training for
the National Guard and really for all of our military,
we need to train as we fight, and we do
not want people training in US cities in that manner.
(10:28):
And so I think that we have to really recalibrate
how we're thinking about that and what does that truly
truly mean, because in many cases, when we're going overseas
into these different environments, we need to be training and
being prepared to do that, and right now our focus
is not on that, and so I think we're potentially
(10:49):
going to lose focus for a very strategic force that
we've been counting on very heavily for at least the
last two decades.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Because when you're training in a US city, what would
it be what would you be training for exactly if
you were military training in a US city to what
go fight in Afghanistan or something like that.
Speaker 10 (11:07):
Well, I mean no, we wouldn't.
Speaker 7 (11:09):
I mean that's the challenge, right, Like a lot of
times that we're going out.
Speaker 10 (11:12):
And getting prepared to deploy.
Speaker 7 (11:15):
We are training in training areas that's very much like
where we're.
Speaker 10 (11:20):
Going to be going.
Speaker 11 (11:21):
And so.
Speaker 7 (11:23):
That's not what we're seeing in our US cities. It's
nothing like it. And I think that if people you know,
were to go to Ukraine or Afghanistan and even into Kuwait,
you would see that our cities are nothing like that.
And while yes, you know, we do have crime, but
it's still nothing like what you would see oversees.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Well, the fund lines are lighting up a tolliver before
Donald Trump, the National Guard was actually deployed right here
in LA because of the rioting that occurred after the
verdict in the Rodney King trial in nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, Rodney King, for our younger listeners, was beaten during
his arrest by LAPD officers, and it was filmed. This
is before everyone had a camera, so it was very rare.
It led to an uproar. Here's President George H. W.
Bush announcing that the National Guard deployment would happen. Back
in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 13 (12:10):
Two, what followed Wednesday's jury verdict in the Rodney King
case was a tragic series of events for the city
of Los Angeles. Nearly four thousand fires, staggering property damage,
hundreds of injuries, and the senseless deaths of over thirty people.
To restore order right now, there are three thousand National
(12:32):
guardsmen on duty in the city of Los Angeles. Another
twenty two hundred stand ready to provide immediate support.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Worth noting that that National Guard deployment came at the
request of the state's governor and the mayor of Los Angeles,
So a very different situation in many cases than what
we're seeing right now. Well, yeah, you do someone were
you here in LA at that time?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I was six years old in Chicago my list, no, right, I.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Remember it from Yeah, I was in Chicago as well.
You're listening to the middle of your life. This is
the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in
the Middle as a national call in show, or focused
on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking you what do you think of
President Trump's use of the National Guard in cities? Tolliver
(13:17):
the number again.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Please, it's eight four four for Middle. That's eight four
four four sixty four three three five three. You can
also write to us at Listen to the Middle dot
com or on social media.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
I'm joined by a retired major General Linda Singh of
the Maryland Army National Guard, and WTP News Capitol Hill
correspondent Mitchell Miller and surprise, surprise, Taliver. Every single phone
line is full of the emails. Let's get to one
of them and open up a line. Lisa is in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Lisa,
what do you think of the National Guarden cities? A?
Speaker 14 (13:46):
Hi, thanks for taking my call. I love this show.
I don't pink the National Guard trained to beat law
enforcement officers. I think being a good law enforcement officer
takes specific training and experience. What I'd rather see is
money and support go to hire officers and communities so
the police are able to respond. As your guest when
(14:07):
the sink stated, I think National Guard members are well trained,
but they have a different focus or intent. But my
big question is other metrics for what they have accomplished.
As your other guests just said, we've heard about maintenance
work and the statement crime has gone down, but I'd
like to hear more about where, what kind of areas
(14:27):
they've been sent into, and how they've made it impact.
Is their presence more than just an intimidation.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Factor, Lisa, thank you for that question. Mitchell Miller, Are
there metrics? Are people looking in Washington and saying, Okay,
they managed to bring crime down by this much? Or
do we even know how long they're going to stay?
Has there been a goal set if they do this,
then they'll leave.
Speaker 12 (14:49):
It's a great question and it's a very complicated answer.
Quite frankly, Yes, I noted that the crime has gone down,
but to what extent is that directly related to the
National Guard And what extent is that related to the
fact that there are thousands of more ICE members members
of the Homeland Security Department that are also making arrests.
(15:11):
CBS News actually did a review of the data, and
they have found that roughly almost forty percent of the
arrests have been made in DC over the last few
weeks have been related to immigration. So the President has
said that he wants to go after violent crime. Obviously
immigration is part of what he wants to go after.
(15:31):
It's really unclear how much the impact has been related
to the National Guard in terms of how much is
crime really going down because of these National Guard personnel
being in DC.
Speaker 11 (15:44):
I think, you know, I think it's.
Speaker 12 (15:45):
Almost irrefutable that just the fact that you have armed
National Guard members patrolling in DC, that that is going
to have some kind of an effect. But what is
it specifically that you can actually attribute to that. I
don't think that that's a very easy answer. And you know,
to the point that we were talking about earlier, what
(16:06):
is the cost. We're talking about close to two million
dollars per day for having all these National Guard members
in d C. And as was mentioned earlier, it's really
something that's unsustainable. It's something that you can do a
surge with and perhaps bring down crime for a month
or so, but what happens after that?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, interesting, Let's go to John in Worcestern, Massachusetts. John,
go ahead with your thoughts. What do you think of
the National Guard in the cities?
Speaker 15 (16:34):
So I think it's I'm going to take a middle
position on it. I think it's probably good in some
cities and probably bad in the other. I think that
having a presence there and a show of force has
certainly worked in Washington, d C. And I think is
the legality of you know, it's a federal district as
opposed to a local city or you know, a state,
I think that makes a difference. I'm also curious what
(16:56):
actually they're doing. My understanding is they're not really making
any arrest. I could be wrong, but my thought was
in leads in d C. Is their help that they're
there for show of force and allows you know, cops
that are actually on the beat and detectives and do
their investigation, so they're not dealing with kind of quality
of life crimes because with the show of force, the
quality of life crimes go down.
Speaker 16 (17:18):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 15 (17:19):
I don't know how I feel about it in Portland
or in Illinois where the.
Speaker 17 (17:23):
Governor doesn't want it.
Speaker 15 (17:24):
I think there's definitely a federal is an issue there,
but certainly I think the other issue is, you know
they're going to these cities. Well, he's focusing on the
blue cities, and I think a lot of that focus
is because there is also there tends to be, or
at least the perception is that their software on crime.
And you know, I don't know how the argument of
(17:44):
the casualst sale is, but I do know, you know,
there's a lot of people that are getting out there
that are mental mental health issues, and there's a lot
of issues. I know somebody, a father was just killed
in right outside of Worcester taking his kids to school
because he ran to a guy who's doing graffiti and
he said he should do that, called the cops and
the guy who's doing the graffiti and took got a
(18:05):
guy and shot him. That guy had been arrested three
you know in the last five years been released.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Well, John, John, a lot a lot there already. So
let me let me take that to our guests. And
I should say also, like most most of the cities
in this country are what you would call blue anyway,
so even if they're in very red states. But Lindis
Singh he makes a few points there, and one of
them is the National Guard are not allowed to like
actually arrest people, right, that's like they wouldn't be allowed
(18:35):
to do that.
Speaker 7 (18:36):
It depends on what status they're in, So that's not
a yes or no. It depends on what status they're
in and how they've been given, you know, direction, And
so right now we're not seeing them do arrest, right,
they usually can detain, but they're not even being used
like in DC, they're not being used in that manner either.
(18:59):
So I think it's a more difficult answer because they
have to be in the right status.
Speaker 10 (19:05):
So National Guard has to be in the right status.
Speaker 7 (19:08):
If it is a Title ten force, an active duty
force that is being deployed in they are not supposed
to be doing any type of arrest or even detaining.
So it's a little bit more complicated in terms of
the rules and the regulations behind it and making sure
that we're really following along with what's supposed to happen,
(19:30):
depending on where they're deployed, how they're deployed, in the
status that they're in.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
A call from one of the cities that if it
doesn't already have National Guard troops deployed, it probably will soon. Chicago, Illinois,
Dale is calling in Dale what do you think about
all this?
Speaker 5 (19:47):
Yeah, I think the prospect of using the National Guard
in Chicago specifically are Our crime is very, very located
in small pockets of the city. We as Chicagoan's, we
all know where they are. I think you would see
a temporary reduction, but our issues are are systemic. The
minute the national Guard left there would have no lasting impact.
(20:09):
And the last thing I would say is you cannot
discount the element of race if it's a black city,
excuse me, a black mayor with a large black population.
You see it singled out by Trump and his rhetoric,
both for delegitimizing the voting results of those areas, and
those are the cities that he wants to target. So
(20:29):
I don't think there's any way to separate race from
this overall emphasis on sending in the national Guard.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Interesting Dale, Thank you very much for that. By the way,
General Singh, the President has made the case that the
reason he has to do this is that the crime
in some of these cities is an emergency. The National
Guard has been used many times in the past to
restore order or deal with civil unrest. Can the case
be made that crime in general is civil unrest.
Speaker 7 (20:59):
Based on where we are today, it is my view
that we're not there. But when we are using very
general terms and we have not developed a criteria that
says this is the level in which crime has to
be for National Guard to be brought in as a deterrence,
(21:22):
we are using very ambiguous, ambiguous terms, and we're just saying, well,
crime is up and it's it's it's an issue and
we need to deal with it. And to me, we're
not at that level. And I think the danger of
that is that when we have a true emergency that happens,
(21:43):
this kind of sets a very false narrative for what
the National Guard is supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Mm hm, telliver What's coming in Online? At Listened to
the Middle dot.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Com, Sarah says Trump's actions are reshaping America for the
long haul. The hidden faces of ice age only add
to the need for sustained vigilance. This won't stop until
the three fifth Rule is reinstated and rich white men
regain complete control. Susan says, why is everyone wringing their
hands and wasting breath discussing the National Guard being deployed
to cities to fight crime? What a bunch of naive
(22:15):
Pollyannas the National Guard is being sent under the guise
of fighting crime. They're being put in a place to
be all set and ready when the fascist in the
White House declares martial law.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Okay, a lot of stuff. Stan is calling in from Longmont, Colorado. Hi, Stan,
go ahead.
Speaker 18 (22:32):
Hi Jeremy, thanks for having me call. I'm a sick
year US Navy veteran, and my view and my opinion
and understanding of the National Guard is that there a
readiness force that's there to provide a assistance to a
wartime fighting element overseas or in the case of having
(22:54):
a actual crisis in the continental United States, providing some kind
of help or support for the local emergency responders. So,
in my understanding and view, it is completely not a
(23:15):
purpose or the point of the National Guard to go
in and provide any kind of law enforcement capability in
any city anywhere in the United States. That's the job
of local federal law enforcement. And I think that if
the necessity is there for increased crime and fighting, then
(23:38):
the resources need to be applied to the correct place,
which is law enforcement local federal.
Speaker 17 (23:44):
Stan.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
How would you feel, by the way, as somebody who's
a veteran, how would you feel if you were put
in the position of doing what these troops are being
asked to do right now?
Speaker 18 (23:56):
I would I would absolutely go a wall like I
joined after having watched the second plane hit the Twin
Towers in nine to eleven, and I got deployed actually
right as Hurricane Katrina hit, you know, right as Hurricane
(24:21):
Katrina happened. And my thought instinct on the boat when
we were getting ready to go to the Persian Gulf
was we really should be going to Louisiana to help
assist Hurricane Katrina.
Speaker 11 (24:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 18 (24:34):
So I would absolutely not be happy about being deployed
on US soil for the appearances of fighting crime.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Stan. Thank you so much for the call. Thank you
for your service. Mitchell Miller, I'll go to you. I
assume that in the course of the time in the
last couple of months that you've had National Guard troops
in Washington, d C. That you've talked to some of them, like,
have you heard any comment, how did they feel?
Speaker 11 (24:59):
You know, it's an interesting mix.
Speaker 12 (25:01):
I think some of them say, well, this is what
we were ordered to do, and so we're doing it.
I think another unsaid thing that often they will kind
of allude to is the fact that we just feel
like we could be better deployed. There is something more
important that we could be doing than the aforementioned picking
up the trash, doing the mulching, painting signs. You know,
(25:26):
there are other things that they do that are important.
For example, the DC National Guard recently went to Ward eight,
which is a very crime ridden area, and they did
kind of a beautification thing and that's part of a
community involvement that the Guard has. And I'm sure Linda, overall,
(25:46):
I think these Guard members that are from other parts
of the country, they're a little bit mystified as to
why they're patrolling around DC.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Right now, Tom is calling in from Tallahassee, Florida. Tom,
what do you think of the Guard in cities?
Speaker 16 (26:03):
Oh, I think that in thinking that Trent presenting the
National Guard to the cities just for crime is so naive.
These are the first moves to prepare the public for
the next move. You just relate to each or something
from another listener that it was for a martial law. Actually,
(26:23):
what I'm saying that it is to prevent the fair
and free and fair elections in the next year or
in twenty twenty eight. This is just to prepare the
public for the bigger action in the blue city, in
the cities in the not for the swing states. He's
gonna deploy the National Guard to prevent the elections to
(26:45):
be free and fair. Maybe he's gonna put the soldiers
around the pressinct voting boots to produce disrupt the voting
process and everything. Think about it. The people who did
January sixth are not going to give the problem in elations.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Tom, thank you for that. Yes, no, it's an interesting point,
and there are certainly people that do believe that general
saying that that this is something sort of getting people
used to the idea of troops on the streets in cities,
and that you know, Trump may want to do this
before an election.
Speaker 7 (27:20):
What do you think, Well, I mean, I'd recommend folks
go out and take a look.
Speaker 10 (27:25):
At Wargame, the movie that you kind.
Speaker 7 (27:27):
Of exactly, the documentary we kind of Tabletop is an
exercise very similar to this, and and I think what
we're potentially seeing unfold could be a lot more dangerous.
And I agree with a number of the listeners that
I think that there are other motives here that were
(27:49):
not paying attention to. And what I would caution everyone
is that, you know, let's not let the noise of
what is being pushed out really distort our view of
what is actually happening. And so just when I think
about overall, I think we're hit it off a cliff.
Speaker 19 (28:12):
Wow.
Speaker 18 (28:12):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Let me get to one more call before we take
a quick break. Here. Lee is in Asheville, North Carolina. Lee,
what do you think of the guard in cities?
Speaker 4 (28:23):
Hell?
Speaker 20 (28:25):
I guess when I think about like Portland, it's a
very peaceful city from everything that I know of it.
I think a lot of what the president's rhetoric might
illness be referring back to protests many years ago, like
in twenty twenty that were more disruptive to you know,
the daily life. But I really don't feel like at
(28:48):
present there are any protests there that are nearly disruptive
or anything that would merit it being called a.
Speaker 21 (28:54):
War zone quote unquote.
Speaker 20 (28:57):
And it really feels to me like he's trying to
have this chilling effect on protests and general dissent in
day to day life is what it feels like to me.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Anyway, Yeah, Lee, thank you for that. Mitchell Miller, I
won't ask you about Portland because you're not there, but
you're in Washington. Were people saying the same kind of
thing in DC when Trump sent the National Guard into
d C. Well, that doesn't feel like a war zone
to me.
Speaker 11 (29:26):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 12 (29:27):
I mean when the President said a few weeks ago
that people were afraid to go to a restaurant for
several years, that's just not true.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
People were some of the best restaurants in the country
are in Washington, right.
Speaker 11 (29:40):
It's a foody town. That's a whole another issua group.
Speaker 12 (29:42):
But so it was a disconnect for a lot of
people that lived here that. Yes, crime has been going up,
the crime in the eighties. When I first moved here
in the late eighties, there were four hundred and fifty
to five hundred murders a year. Now we're talking a
fraction of that, over one hundred. So it's a matter
(30:02):
of degree. And going back to the National Guard, it's
interesting because I was here in the Capitol where I
am right now when the National Guard was not called
initially during January sixth, and there were people down the
hall from where I am right now, pounding on doors,
going after people, and the National Guard was not activated
(30:23):
for a variety of reasons which we don't have to
go into here, but it just goes to show that
the National Guard can be held up in a lot
of different ways, whether it's a democratic governor not deciding
to bring in the National Guard to his state, or
whether it was the president during January.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Sixth, well Tolliver. As we said, the National Guard has
been federalized a number of times throughout our history, including
during the civil rights erape.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Yeah, President Lyndon Johnson sent troops into Detroit to quell
the nineteen sixty seven Detroit riots, but he was very
clear about why he was doing it.
Speaker 22 (30:56):
Law enforcement is a local matter, is the responsibility of
local officials and the governors of the respective states. The
federal government should not intervene except in the most extraordinary circumstances.
Speaker 11 (31:14):
The fact of the.
Speaker 22 (31:14):
Matter, however, is that law and order have broken down
in Detroit, Michigan, and the federal government, and the circumstances
here presented, had no alternative but to respond.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
And again that deployment was requested by the governor of Michigan,
who was at the time Mitt Romney's father, George.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Trump oh Binders full of Romney's man.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
That will be right back with more of your calls
on the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
This hour, we're asking you what you think of Trump's
use of the National Guard in American cities. You can
call us at eight four four four Middle, that's eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com.
I'm joined by WTP News Capitol Hill correspondent Mitchell Miller
(32:02):
in Washington, d C. And retired Major General Linda Singh
of the Maryland Army National Guard. And let's get right
back to the phones. And John, who's in Fort Worth, Texas. John,
what do you think about the National Guard in cities?
Speaker 19 (32:19):
Well, let me just start by saying I was the
first volunteer for Ukraine in twenty twenty two. I'm also
an Ambassador's Circle member to the Carter Center. And you know,
President Carter monitors about two hundred two hundred countries elections
to ensure they're free and fair. And I asked President Carter,
what good does it do for you to monitor elections everywhere?
(32:40):
If you have a guy like Vladimir Putin who literally
bombed his own people to get elected and said that
democracy is a stage card to dictatorship. Bombed his own
people in Reison, and the local police caught the FSB
planning bomb. Using terrorism to crack down on people's freedoms.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
That's what you see. That's what you see the National
Guard in cities as terrorism to crack down on people's freedoms.
Speaker 19 (33:09):
Absolutely absolutely, they're using chrome to get people to go
up their freedoms. And I'll tell you something else, it's
against the law. Forget everything else. There's a reason posse
commatatus exists. It's because of a Ludlow massacre when union
members struck to get better wages. The army came in
(33:32):
and machine gun.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I'm glad that everything else, John, I'm glad you brought
up possecommatatus because we should explain that. And Linda saying
this is an act from like the eighteen hundreds that
basically says national Guard troops are National Guard is not
allowed to be used for civilian law enforcement. You tell
me if I didn't do that right, right?
Speaker 7 (33:55):
So you so there Again, it's very complicated when you
have to be in the right status. If they are
in a state status, then they can be used to
support local law enforcement.
Speaker 10 (34:09):
That's actually the place that you would.
Speaker 7 (34:11):
Want them to be because that's when they can be deputized.
They can support local law enforcement. When we're in a
Title thirty two status or a Title ten status, we
should not be used in that manner, and that's when
posscommatatis really applies. But what I think is, and we
can say that it's against the law, and the way
(34:34):
that they're being used today not necessarily true.
Speaker 10 (34:38):
They are actually.
Speaker 7 (34:39):
Using small snippets of wording to be able to do
this within their legal authority. The only thing I have
to say is it is a crisis, and it is
an emergency. And if I deem it as a crisis
in an emergency and I'm using that as the mechanism
and crime, or if it's you know, supporting ice agents
(35:02):
and I'm saying that, you know, we need to protect
federal property, then that gives the president the authority to
be able to do that.
Speaker 10 (35:10):
And I think people, you know.
Speaker 7 (35:11):
We should go out and be looking at how are
they using this in each of the different cities, because
they are slightly different.
Speaker 10 (35:18):
How are they using it?
Speaker 7 (35:20):
What is the terminology and what is the executive order
that's that's being pushed because it's it's very enlightening when
you start looking at how this is being done.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Fabio is calling us from Chicago high, Fabio, go ahead
with your thoughts.
Speaker 21 (35:37):
Hello, Jeremy, thanks for having me.
Speaker 17 (35:39):
Well.
Speaker 21 (35:40):
I think this is one of the steps this administation
is taken to put in place fascist regime. I don't
know which other words we can use now, what is
you know, I'm Italian, so we studied how Mussolini was
able to come to power. You know, he won the
elections like this present, indeed, and then he did every
(36:02):
step possible to take freedom and the ability to any
other group or political party to express their opinion or
to even act. I mean, it's putting the army in
the streets. ICE agents are all around the Chicago, this
beautiful city. I have to see in the streets people
with masks, you know, heavily armed. It's scaring for everybody,
(36:27):
not just for the immigrants that of course are risking
to be deported for sometimes absolutely no reasons. You know,
they are in the process to have a citizenship or
be allowed to live and work in this country. But
they are taking they are taken before being able to
go to court or while they are in court. So
(36:48):
it's it's really frightening. And as I say, this is
just one step right, the Attorney General of the United
States is the personal attorney of Donald Trump. I mean,
or we could just read the Project twenty twenty five right,
and that is the installation of a fascist regime. So
we are in a complete constitutional crisis right now with
(37:11):
this president that is doing whatever he wants right and left.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
And I think, just just to correct the record, I
believe it's the deputy attorney general that was the personal
attorney of Trump. The attorney general was the Attorney General
of Florida. Pambondi. But point take in Fabia. Thank you
very much for that. Mitchell Miller. You're in the You've
been in Washington for many years, decades, in fact, you're
(37:37):
in the political center of the country. These are things
that people around the country are saying right now. There
are you know, we've heard it on this show before,
not everybody believes it, but that we've now heard the
word fascism I think a few times in this hour.
What about on Capitol Hill? Is that being talked about
or does that sound just totally alien to people. If
(37:58):
we were to have members of Congress on here, if
they heard somebody say that, what would they think, Well.
Speaker 12 (38:03):
You know, I understand the concern, and they alluded to
earlier when the National Guard was first deployed. There were
people actually who were frankly not very nice to the
Guard personnel. They're just trying to do their job, and
people came up to them, they swore at them, they
were clearly angry at the fact that there were armed
National Guard members making patrols. On the other hand, I
(38:26):
would say that I think it's a little bit more benign,
at least at this point. These are people that are
just making patrols. They're doing a lot of different things,
just basically under order. And I also will say that
even though the crime has gone down, the President has
said it basically was eliminated.
Speaker 11 (38:45):
Of course, that's not true.
Speaker 12 (38:46):
Crime is never eliminated in any major city across the country,
no matter how many National Guard members, no matter how
many federal officers that you have on in the street.
And as just one small example, just a few blocks
from my house weeks ago, a DC fighter firefighter had
a gun put in his chest by a teenager and
(39:07):
he was almost killed.
Speaker 11 (39:08):
He grabbed the barrel of the.
Speaker 12 (39:09):
Gun and the gun went off and he was injured,
and the teenager was injured. So the crime is going
to continue to happen no matter what. But again, I
understand the concerns people have about the fact that you
have armed National Guard military personnel out on streets in
various cities across the country.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Well, and Linda Singh, as you said early on, this
is a temporary solution. It's not like the National Guard
troops would be there forever. If we did an entire
hour about crime, which by the way, is coming down
around the country, even if it is higher than in
other countries around the world. But one of the things
that our experts said in that hour was the reason
that other countries in Europe, let's say, have lower crime
(39:47):
is in part because they have way more police officers,
not temporarily on the streets, but permanently on the streets.
And also there are cameras everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 7 (39:55):
And they're repercussions the grinds, like I mean, and I
think we really do need to kind of get back
to focusing on the system and how do we change
the system for longer term advancement, and that means restructuring dollars.
You know, when we went away from or we went
(40:16):
through this whole defund the police, what were we.
Speaker 10 (40:19):
Expecting to happen?
Speaker 7 (40:21):
Like, were we expecting crime to just dissipate because we
decided that we wanted to start focusing on defunding the police.
I mean, you have to think about you know, some
of this we've kind of caused to come into place,
But when it gets to our National Guard, this is
a highly trained, strategic force that is used to support
(40:45):
active duty, active army, active Air Force in a deployed environment.
But what we also have to remember is the National
Guard as we are members of your community. We live
and we work in your communities. Were your mothers, your sisters,
your brothers, were your children, and so just keep in
(41:09):
mind that when you are in one of these cities
and you see them, they are being asked to carry
out an order, and if they were to say no,
they will get court martialed. They don't have that liberty
because they raise their hand. They took an oath, whether
we like it or not, they took an oath. And
(41:30):
so let's just keep in mind that you know, when
you see someone wearing that uniform on the street, just
keep in mind that they're probably a mother, a father,
a sister, or brother to someone.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Let's go to Bill, who's in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Hi, Bill,
what do you think of the National Garden Cities.
Speaker 17 (41:52):
Well, I think it's a disgrace. I agree with the General.
I think that I respect her, thank you for your service,
by the way, I respect her, And I think unfortunately
it's going to be up to our brave men and
women in uniform to hold the line if it's this
aggressive overreach it continues. I mean, we've got a president
(42:13):
who's watching b roll from Portland from twenty twenty and
projecting it out like it's modern day, like it's like
like it happened yesterday, and this is the reality our
our chief lives. And you've got a borders are who's
taking bags of money under the table, and then the
charges and the Flighty just just disappears somehow. And you've
got people on the other side where there's no good
(42:36):
faith arguments, there's no civil discourse. Even my educated friends
who are Republicans who have had for thirty years, there's
no talking. There's No, there's no good exchanges, there's no
civil discourse. It's it's me, my facts, and I cite
my facts and them either withdrawing or countering with Caroline
Levitt talking points. That's that's the reality we live in today,
(42:56):
and it's horrific and it's shameful and I'm embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Thank you for the time, Bill, Thank you very much,
Mitchell Miller. As you hear that on Capitol Hill, is
that the conversation do you see just Republicans saying this
is good and Democrats saying this is bad? Among lawmakers?
Speaker 12 (43:13):
Yeah, what he was saying resonated with me, because I
hear it all the time. Both sides point fingers at
each other and say the other one is just worse
than the other side. And you've seen it, you know,
as we're going forward with this government shutdown right now,
that it just exacerbates it. But you see it all
the time in congressional hearings, and there is very little
(43:36):
across the aisle discussions among lawmakers today that there used
to be. And you know, not to go back to
halcyon days from the past, but there was a time
when lawmakers from both parties actually would discuss things thoughtfully
and try to come to solutions. And right now, what
they generally try to do, and both parties do this
(43:58):
is they try to put political points up on the board,
and that's really the bottom line for each of the parties.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
You mentioned the government shutdown. I know Tolliver's been seeing
a lot of people asking the question online of whether
the troops are being paid during the government shutdown or
does the government shutdown have any impact on the ability
of the National Guardsmen to be deployed.
Speaker 12 (44:24):
It does not affect them in terms of they are
not getting paid, so they are like many other military
personnel across the country because of the federal government shutdown.
Now there's been a lot of talk about the fact
that the administration might move around some funds to make
things available, but essentially, the people that are out of
(44:45):
work right now or furloughed by the government, they are
not getting paid, including the military, unless they're considered essential personnel.
And you had to go back to twenty nineteen, which
was the longest government shutdown ever, close to thirty five
days after that, Congress decided we need to make members
(45:06):
of the federal government and the military whole again and
so they will get paid whenever this government shut down
eventually ends.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Right, but that could be a while, and it's not
easy to go without a paycheck for a long period
of time, especially right now with the cost of everything.
Let's go to Jackson, who's in Lee's summit Missouri. Jackson,
welcome to the middle go ahead.
Speaker 6 (45:31):
Hi, thanks for having me. I think too kind of
understand the study. There's really two things we need to
remember about Trump. Number One, he's just kind of he's
a big messaging guy, right, Like if you take one
of his biggest projects from his first term, the Boiderwall,
didn't really ever get finished, right. And another thing is
that he's really someone who values loyalty a lot. So
(45:55):
I think if this one thing, we want something good
to come out of this whole national good situation, I
think that the governors and maybe the mayors of these
cities could take this opportunity to embrace the National Guard,
right because, like as we saw in Washington, d C.
They don't really get or the National Guard troops don't
really have the opportunity to enforce the law so much
(46:15):
as just like provide public work services and that kind
of thing that can be of value to cities, and
so I think this is a good opportunity for governors
and mayors to build opportunity or build relationships with the
President and to have something good come out of this.
Because to be clear, I do believe that it is
a slippery slope and that this isn't really a good thing.
But I think that Trump is really a big messaging guy,
(46:37):
and I'm really not sure that this whole National Guard
occupations will go to one of those groom day situations
we've heard a lot about.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yeah, thanks Jackson, Linda sing, what do you think about that?
What would you think about you know? JB. Pritzker, the
Democratic governor of Illinois saying Okay, you know, if this
is what's going to happen, why don't I just embrace
it and say great, thank you. Can you please, you know,
clean up the city of Chicago for me?
Speaker 10 (47:00):
I mean, so there is a level of where that
would work, right, like if that.
Speaker 7 (47:07):
Would put them a little bit more in control. But
I think it's challenging because if you don't feel like
there is a need to have the National Guard deployed
in your city, you're going to kind of stand firm
on that.
Speaker 10 (47:21):
And so if a governor.
Speaker 7 (47:25):
Says, okay, I would like to have federal resources, why
does it have to be the National Guard?
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Right?
Speaker 7 (47:32):
Why can't it be other federal dollars? Why can't it
be something else instead? If they say yes, we want this,
they're not getting other federal resources. There's so many other
levers that we could pull. Instead, we're just pulling National Guard.
And there are times which we really need them, right,
(47:52):
And so when we think about Katrina, or when you know,
there was the civil disturbance, the Freddie Gray incident in Baltimore,
we came in in a support capacity behind law enforcement.
We did not take the lead. We were not there
for ever. As soon as things were stabilized.
Speaker 10 (48:13):
As soon as we felt like we could withdraw, we left.
Speaker 7 (48:19):
Just as quickly as we came in, and we turned it.
We made sure that we turned everything back over to
the local law enforcement.
Speaker 10 (48:28):
Right. So we were partnered with them all the way.
Speaker 7 (48:31):
So it can work as long as there is a plan,
as long as we know what the criteria is.
Speaker 10 (48:38):
What are they supposed to do? So what is the mission?
Speaker 7 (48:41):
What is the impact that you want to be able
to achieve? And that's what we're not talking about and
then how are we going to measure that?
Speaker 10 (48:48):
Right?
Speaker 7 (48:49):
You know, we heard Mitchell actually talking about these the
measurements that are not there, Well, how are you going
to measure whether or not you are achieving those particular effects?
So it should be a little bit more strategic, a
little bit more planned. If you think about New Mexico,
I think the New Mexico governor actually deployed their National
Guard in a way that allows law enforcement to be
(49:10):
able to do more. It's very intentional, it was very direct,
and they understand what their mission is. So that's what
we need to be thinking about, is making sure that
we are not just doing it and saying, Okay, get
out there and now do what you need to do.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
What is that mission that will have to be the
last word. That's retired Major General Linda Singh of the
Maryland Army National Guard. We've also been speaking with WTOP
News Capitol Hill correspondent Mitchell Miller. Thanks so much to
both of you for joining us. Thank you, Hi, Pleasure,
and thanks to everyone who called in. Thanks to our
friends here at LAist in Pasadena for hosting us this week.
Cosmic Pagosian at the board, Bianca Ramirez Jeff Row and
(49:49):
Rick Esparza. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. We've
got extra episodes of our One Thing Trump Did podcast
every week, available only on The Middle podcast feed, And
next week we're going to be back here asking you
how the government shutdown is affecting you. And if it's
over by then, we've got a secret plan for our show,
so stay tuned. We have to plan this whether it
happens or not.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
Either way, our number is eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four and three three
five three, or you can reach out at listen to
the Miiddle dot com. We can also sign up for
our free weekly newsletter.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
The Middle is brought to you by LONGOK Media, distributed
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Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
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at listen toothemiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, coming to you
from Las Studios in Pasadena, California, not far from downtown
Los Angeles, where just a few hundred National Guard troops
are still deployed. That's months after President Trump sent them
there to quell protests over immigration raids. That was the
start of Trump's use of the National Guard in cities
(00:39):
across the country, often over the objection of local officials.
And that's what we're going to talk about this hour
on the Middle. But first let me say hi to
our DJ Tolliver. Tolliver, we have some new listeners.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
This week, Yeah, a ton of them. We're now live
in the North Country of New York State or North
Country Public Radio all the way from Plattsburgh to Lake
George of Fort Drum. And we are also now live
across North Dakota on Prairie Public.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Awesome. Yes, in Prairie Public has been airing us, but
not live now. If you hear a lot of North
Dakotas on the Middle, you'll know why Welcome to everyone, including,
by the way, the people listening on North Country in Canada.
Bien venue. So on the show this hour, Portland, Oregon, Memphis, Tennessee.
These are the latest cities preparing for a deployment of
National Guard troops in their streets. Illinois Governor J. B.
(01:26):
Pritzker says he doesn't want the troops in Chicago, but
he said this week they are likely on the way
to protect immigrant facility immigration facilities. In Tennessee, the Republican
governor is asking for the troops to combat crime in Memphis,
which has one of the highest murder rates in America.
But in Oregon, leaders are resisting. Here's the Democratic Attorney
General Dan Rayfield.
Speaker 4 (01:47):
In America, we don't use our United States military on
our own citizens. But except in extreme circumstances, it's actually
an American if you think about it, to use the
military against our own citizens. But that's exactly what's happening
right now across our country, from California to DC, to Memphis,
(02:10):
to Illinois and now to Portland.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
So this hour, we're asking you what you think of
President Trump's use of the National Guard in American cities.
We're taking your calls at eight four four four middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can write to us at listen toothmddle dot com.
But first a breather from politics. Enjoy it some of
your voicemails from last week's show about creativity and why
you create.
Speaker 5 (02:33):
My name is Johnny.
Speaker 6 (02:34):
I live in Vermont. I cook, I write poetry sometimes
I draw.
Speaker 7 (02:38):
I do lots of.
Speaker 5 (02:40):
Creative things because we don't have enough time, and I
think it's important to human thought to make something out
of nothing.
Speaker 8 (02:47):
This is Melissa Trace. I live on Isle of Palms
in South Carolina h Garden, and I create beautiful spaces
with color and texture and fragrance and different heights. And
I do it because it makes me happy to see
the flowers, to be able to change it every season,
and to have people stop by and it makes them happy.
Speaker 9 (03:10):
My name is Sue On. I'm calling from Greensboro, North Carolina.
I think art is creation just as much as energy is.
I feel like without art, especially when you're trying to
navigate such a hectic time. I think art is the
only true form of magic that still kind of lingers
in this world.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
You're here yeah. Well, thanks to everyone who called in.
You can hear that full show. Bye subscribing to the
Middle wherever you listen to podcasts. So now back to
our hectic time and our question this hour, what do
you think of President Trump's use of the National Guard
in American cities? Tolliver the phone number please.
Speaker 3 (03:43):
You can deploy your calls at eight four four for
Middle that's eight four four four six four three three
five three, or you can write to us at Listen
to the Middle dot com or comment on our live
stream on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
Joining us this hour retired Major General Linda Singh of
the Maryland Army National Guard. General Singh, welcome back to
the Middle.
Speaker 10 (04:01):
Thank you, Jeremy. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
And we're also joined by WTP News Capitol Hill correspondent
Mitchell Miller in Washington, d C. Mitchell, welcome to.
Speaker 11 (04:09):
You, Thank you very much, happy to join.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
Well, before we get to the phones, general, seeing when
we planned to do this show, the cities that had
experienced National Guard troops under Trump where La where I am,
and Washington, D C? Where Mitchell is now we're talking
about Portland and Memphis and New Orleans and Chicago, Saint Louis,
maybe Baltimore. This is escalating very quickly. What do you
think of it?
Speaker 7 (04:32):
I think it becomes challenging because this is not sustainable.
Speaker 10 (04:36):
Number one.
Speaker 7 (04:38):
The second piece is that we're really not fixing the
systemic problem that exists.
Speaker 10 (04:44):
We're really trying to put a quick fix and push
it as a long term solution.
Speaker 7 (04:51):
And I think that we're really not focusing where we
need to be.
Speaker 10 (04:55):
We should be putting.
Speaker 7 (04:57):
More federal focus on how do we fix this stomach
issues that have been there for a long time. And
the National Guard is not designed for this, It's not
the reason why we typically deploy them on the streets,
and so I think the challenge becomes making sure that
we're trying to get at what the actual problem is
(05:19):
and what is the outcome.
Speaker 10 (05:20):
That we want to achieve.
Speaker 7 (05:22):
And I don't think that we're all on the same
sheet of music when it comes.
Speaker 2 (05:25):
To that, Mitchell Miller. When it comes to what the
National Guard troops are actually doing, they've been in Washington,
D C. For a couple of months, now, what are
they doing.
Speaker 12 (05:36):
Well, They're doing a lot of things that people are
kind of a little bit confused about. Initially they were
here on the very major thorough ways of the tourism
here in DC, on the National Mall near the major
tourist spots, and then over the last few weeks, they've
(05:57):
kind of been spreading out in various spots and they've
been collecting trash, they've been spreading mulch, they've been getting
into some of the communities. So it's interesting because over
the last couple of weeks particularly, we haven't seen them
as much in a public role as we did when
they first got here. Now, keep in mind, there are
(06:18):
more than twenty two hundred National Guard members, including the
DC National Guard as well as National Guard personnel from
eight states, so there's a lot of people here, but
there are a lot of people here in DC kind
of questioning what are they doing right now. Overall, however,
the crime has gone down during that crime emergency that
(06:41):
was announced by President Trump. Whether or not that was
directly as a result of the National Guard or because
of thousands of other federal law enforcement officials that have
flooded the streets in DC, we'll have to assess that
at a future date. But at any rate, it's interesting
because I have seen National Guard members walk around my
neighborhood actually, but I haven't seen them as prominently in
(07:04):
these tourist areas that we saw them before.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
Interesting now, Washington d C. Is a unique situation just
because of the way that it's set up. But general
seek is there a difference in your mind between National
Guard troops being used in a state where the governor
asks for them, like Tennessee for example, versus a state
where the governor says, do not deploy them, like Illinois.
Speaker 7 (07:29):
Absolutely, I think there's a big difference. Well, one, if
we're being asked to deploy and the governor.
Speaker 10 (07:36):
Is not wanting us, that automatically kind of puts a
little bit of friction.
Speaker 7 (07:41):
It starts making the National Guard as the bad people
coming in and trying to take over, and that's not
what we want because many times the National Guard we
live in these communities that we get deployed to, and
while it may be a national Guard deploying from another
state into.
Speaker 10 (07:59):
A particular state, we still live within the community.
Speaker 7 (08:02):
And I think that that is going to get very
confusing to people, and I think it's going to or
I hope that it does not turn around and be
what we've seen when our Vietnam veterans were coming home
where people have turned against the military, and in particular
they turn against the National Guard because they don't really.
Speaker 10 (08:23):
Know any better.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Well, Mitchell, how do people feel about the National Guard
troops that are there in Washington.
Speaker 11 (08:32):
It's interesting.
Speaker 12 (08:32):
I think there's been a change in connection with the
fact when they first got here, frankly, there were some
people that were kind of nonplussed about it, But then
there were some people that.
Speaker 11 (08:43):
Were very angry about it.
Speaker 12 (08:45):
They didn't like the idea that the National Guard were
on patrol moving around DC when they felt that crime
had been coming down here in the District of Columbia. However,
I have noticed over the last few weeks that there
has been kind of a softening of the attitude towards
National Guard people.
Speaker 11 (09:04):
I mean personally.
Speaker 12 (09:05):
I have been somebody who lived in areas that had
lots of military personnel and I always would say hello
or welcome them. And I've talked to Senator Tim Kahman
of Virginia who happens to reside in DC for periods
of time during Congress, and he says he always kind
of says hello to them, And so I think a
(09:28):
lot of these personnel frankly don't really here or they're
not really they're not really sure what their role is. Obviously,
as I mentioned earlier, they have been given these jobs like,
you know, picking up the trash and spreading mulch and
doing other things, painting fences, that type of thing, but
that's not really what many Guard members really want to
(09:50):
do when they get deployed.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Well, general, seeing, what did you think when you heard
President Trump say the other day that too military leadership,
that he wants the military to use US cities as
training grounds.
Speaker 7 (10:07):
That's a very bad idea for many reasons. Number One,
we need to train. When we talk about training for
the National Guard and really for all of our military,
we need to train as we fight, and we do
not want people training in US cities in that manner.
(10:28):
And so I think that we have to really recalibrate
how we're thinking about that and what does that truly
truly mean, because in many cases, when we're going overseas
into these different environments, we need to be training and
being prepared to do that, and right now our focus
is not on that, and so I think we're potentially
(10:49):
going to lose focus for a very strategic force that
we've been counting on very heavily for at least the
last two decades.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
Because when you're training in a US city, what would
it be what would you be training for exactly if
you were military training in a US city to what
go fight in Afghanistan or something like that.
Speaker 10 (11:07):
Well, I mean no, we wouldn't.
Speaker 7 (11:09):
I mean that's the challenge, right, Like a lot of
times that we're going out.
Speaker 10 (11:12):
And getting prepared to deploy.
Speaker 7 (11:15):
We are training in training areas that's very much like
where we're.
Speaker 10 (11:20):
Going to be going.
Speaker 11 (11:21):
And so.
Speaker 7 (11:23):
That's not what we're seeing in our US cities. It's
nothing like it. And I think that if people you know,
were to go to Ukraine or Afghanistan and even into Kuwait,
you would see that our cities are nothing like that.
And while yes, you know, we do have crime, but
it's still nothing like what you would see oversees.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Well, the fund lines are lighting up a tolliver before
Donald Trump, the National Guard was actually deployed right here
in LA because of the rioting that occurred after the
verdict in the Rodney King trial in nineteen ninety two.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, Rodney King, for our younger listeners, was beaten during
his arrest by LAPD officers, and it was filmed. This
is before everyone had a camera, so it was very rare.
It led to an uproar. Here's President George H. W.
Bush announcing that the National Guard deployment would happen. Back
in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 13 (12:10):
Two, what followed Wednesday's jury verdict in the Rodney King
case was a tragic series of events for the city
of Los Angeles. Nearly four thousand fires, staggering property damage,
hundreds of injuries, and the senseless deaths of over thirty people.
To restore order right now, there are three thousand National
(12:32):
guardsmen on duty in the city of Los Angeles. Another
twenty two hundred stand ready to provide immediate support.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Worth noting that that National Guard deployment came at the
request of the state's governor and the mayor of Los Angeles,
So a very different situation in many cases than what
we're seeing right now. Well, yeah, you do someone were
you here in LA at that time?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
I was six years old in Chicago my list, no, right, I.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
Remember it from Yeah, I was in Chicago as well.
You're listening to the middle of your life. This is
the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning in
the Middle as a national call in show, or focused
on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking you what do you think of
President Trump's use of the National Guard in cities? Tolliver
(13:17):
the number again.
Speaker 3 (13:18):
Please, it's eight four four for Middle. That's eight four
four four sixty four three three five three. You can
also write to us at Listen to the Middle dot
com or on social media.
Speaker 2 (13:26):
I'm joined by a retired major General Linda Singh of
the Maryland Army National Guard, and WTP News Capitol Hill
correspondent Mitchell Miller and surprise, surprise, Taliver. Every single phone
line is full of the emails. Let's get to one
of them and open up a line. Lisa is in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Lisa,
what do you think of the National Guarden cities? A?
Speaker 14 (13:46):
Hi, thanks for taking my call. I love this show.
I don't pink the National Guard trained to beat law
enforcement officers. I think being a good law enforcement officer
takes specific training and experience. What I'd rather see is
money and support go to hire officers and communities so
the police are able to respond. As your guest when
(14:07):
the sink stated, I think National Guard members are well trained,
but they have a different focus or intent. But my
big question is other metrics for what they have accomplished.
As your other guests just said, we've heard about maintenance
work and the statement crime has gone down, but I'd
like to hear more about where, what kind of areas
(14:27):
they've been sent into, and how they've made it impact.
Is their presence more than just an intimidation.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
Factor, Lisa, thank you for that question. Mitchell Miller, Are
there metrics? Are people looking in Washington and saying, Okay,
they managed to bring crime down by this much? Or
do we even know how long they're going to stay?
Has there been a goal set if they do this,
then they'll leave.
Speaker 12 (14:49):
It's a great question and it's a very complicated answer.
Quite frankly, Yes, I noted that the crime has gone down,
but to what extent is that directly related to the
National Guard And what extent is that related to the
fact that there are thousands of more ICE members members
of the Homeland Security Department that are also making arrests.
(15:11):
CBS News actually did a review of the data, and
they have found that roughly almost forty percent of the
arrests have been made in DC over the last few
weeks have been related to immigration. So the President has
said that he wants to go after violent crime. Obviously
immigration is part of what he wants to go after.
(15:31):
It's really unclear how much the impact has been related
to the National Guard in terms of how much is
crime really going down because of these National Guard personnel
being in DC.
Speaker 11 (15:44):
I think, you know, I think it's.
Speaker 12 (15:45):
Almost irrefutable that just the fact that you have armed
National Guard members patrolling in DC, that that is going
to have some kind of an effect. But what is
it specifically that you can actually attribute to that. I
don't think that that's a very easy answer. And you know,
to the point that we were talking about earlier, what
(16:06):
is the cost. We're talking about close to two million
dollars per day for having all these National Guard members
in d C. And as was mentioned earlier, it's really
something that's unsustainable. It's something that you can do a
surge with and perhaps bring down crime for a month
or so, but what happens after that?
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Yeah, interesting, Let's go to John in Worcestern, Massachusetts. John,
go ahead with your thoughts. What do you think of
the National Guard in the cities?
Speaker 15 (16:34):
So I think it's I'm going to take a middle
position on it. I think it's probably good in some
cities and probably bad in the other. I think that
having a presence there and a show of force has
certainly worked in Washington, d C. And I think is
the legality of you know, it's a federal district as
opposed to a local city or you know, a state,
I think that makes a difference. I'm also curious what
(16:56):
actually they're doing. My understanding is they're not really making
any arrest. I could be wrong, but my thought was
in leads in d C. Is their help that they're
there for show of force and allows you know, cops
that are actually on the beat and detectives and do
their investigation, so they're not dealing with kind of quality
of life crimes because with the show of force, the
quality of life crimes go down.
Speaker 16 (17:18):
Mm hmm.
Speaker 15 (17:19):
I don't know how I feel about it in Portland
or in Illinois where the.
Speaker 17 (17:23):
Governor doesn't want it.
Speaker 15 (17:24):
I think there's definitely a federal is an issue there,
but certainly I think the other issue is, you know
they're going to these cities. Well, he's focusing on the
blue cities, and I think a lot of that focus
is because there is also there tends to be, or
at least the perception is that their software on crime.
And you know, I don't know how the argument of
(17:44):
the casualst sale is, but I do know, you know,
there's a lot of people that are getting out there
that are mental mental health issues, and there's a lot
of issues. I know somebody, a father was just killed
in right outside of Worcester taking his kids to school
because he ran to a guy who's doing graffiti and
he said he should do that, called the cops and
the guy who's doing the graffiti and took got a
(18:05):
guy and shot him. That guy had been arrested three
you know in the last five years been released.
Speaker 2 (18:12):
Well, John, John, a lot a lot there already. So
let me let me take that to our guests. And
I should say also, like most most of the cities
in this country are what you would call blue anyway,
so even if they're in very red states. But Lindis
Singh he makes a few points there, and one of
them is the National Guard are not allowed to like
actually arrest people, right, that's like they wouldn't be allowed
(18:35):
to do that.
Speaker 7 (18:36):
It depends on what status they're in, So that's not
a yes or no. It depends on what status they're
in and how they've been given, you know, direction, And
so right now we're not seeing them do arrest, right,
they usually can detain, but they're not even being used
like in DC, they're not being used in that manner either.
(18:59):
So I think it's a more difficult answer because they
have to be in the right status.
Speaker 10 (19:05):
So National Guard has to be in the right status.
Speaker 7 (19:08):
If it is a Title ten force, an active duty
force that is being deployed in they are not supposed
to be doing any type of arrest or even detaining.
So it's a little bit more complicated in terms of
the rules and the regulations behind it and making sure
that we're really following along with what's supposed to happen,
(19:30):
depending on where they're deployed, how they're deployed, in the
status that they're in.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
A call from one of the cities that if it
doesn't already have National Guard troops deployed, it probably will soon. Chicago, Illinois,
Dale is calling in Dale what do you think about
all this?
Speaker 5 (19:47):
Yeah, I think the prospect of using the National Guard
in Chicago specifically are Our crime is very, very located
in small pockets of the city. We as Chicagoan's, we
all know where they are. I think you would see
a temporary reduction, but our issues are are systemic. The
minute the national Guard left there would have no lasting impact.
(20:09):
And the last thing I would say is you cannot
discount the element of race if it's a black city,
excuse me, a black mayor with a large black population.
You see it singled out by Trump and his rhetoric,
both for delegitimizing the voting results of those areas, and
those are the cities that he wants to target. So
(20:29):
I don't think there's any way to separate race from
this overall emphasis on sending in the national Guard.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Interesting Dale, Thank you very much for that. By the way,
General Singh, the President has made the case that the
reason he has to do this is that the crime
in some of these cities is an emergency. The National
Guard has been used many times in the past to
restore order or deal with civil unrest. Can the case
be made that crime in general is civil unrest.
Speaker 7 (20:59):
Based on where we are today, it is my view
that we're not there. But when we are using very
general terms and we have not developed a criteria that
says this is the level in which crime has to
be for National Guard to be brought in as a deterrence,
(21:22):
we are using very ambiguous, ambiguous terms, and we're just saying, well,
crime is up and it's it's it's an issue and
we need to deal with it. And to me, we're
not at that level. And I think the danger of
that is that when we have a true emergency that happens,
(21:43):
this kind of sets a very false narrative for what
the National Guard is supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
Mm hm, telliver What's coming in Online? At Listened to
the Middle dot.
Speaker 3 (21:54):
Com, Sarah says Trump's actions are reshaping America for the
long haul. The hidden faces of ice age only add
to the need for sustained vigilance. This won't stop until
the three fifth Rule is reinstated and rich white men
regain complete control. Susan says, why is everyone wringing their
hands and wasting breath discussing the National Guard being deployed
to cities to fight crime? What a bunch of naive
(22:15):
Pollyannas the National Guard is being sent under the guise
of fighting crime. They're being put in a place to
be all set and ready when the fascist in the
White House declares martial law.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Okay, a lot of stuff. Stan is calling in from Longmont, Colorado. Hi, Stan,
go ahead.
Speaker 18 (22:32):
Hi Jeremy, thanks for having me call. I'm a sick
year US Navy veteran, and my view and my opinion
and understanding of the National Guard is that there a
readiness force that's there to provide a assistance to a
wartime fighting element overseas or in the case of having
(22:54):
a actual crisis in the continental United States, providing some kind
of help or support for the local emergency responders. So,
in my understanding and view, it is completely not a
(23:15):
purpose or the point of the National Guard to go
in and provide any kind of law enforcement capability in
any city anywhere in the United States. That's the job
of local federal law enforcement. And I think that if
the necessity is there for increased crime and fighting, then
(23:38):
the resources need to be applied to the correct place,
which is law enforcement local federal.
Speaker 17 (23:44):
Stan.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
How would you feel, by the way, as somebody who's
a veteran, how would you feel if you were put
in the position of doing what these troops are being
asked to do right now?
Speaker 18 (23:56):
I would I would absolutely go a wall like I
joined after having watched the second plane hit the Twin
Towers in nine to eleven, and I got deployed actually
right as Hurricane Katrina hit, you know, right as Hurricane
(24:21):
Katrina happened. And my thought instinct on the boat when
we were getting ready to go to the Persian Gulf
was we really should be going to Louisiana to help
assist Hurricane Katrina.
Speaker 11 (24:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 18 (24:34):
So I would absolutely not be happy about being deployed
on US soil for the appearances of fighting crime.
Speaker 2 (24:43):
Stan. Thank you so much for the call. Thank you
for your service. Mitchell Miller, I'll go to you. I
assume that in the course of the time in the
last couple of months that you've had National Guard troops
in Washington, d C. That you've talked to some of them, like,
have you heard any comment, how did they feel?
Speaker 11 (24:59):
You know, it's an interesting mix.
Speaker 12 (25:01):
I think some of them say, well, this is what
we were ordered to do, and so we're doing it.
I think another unsaid thing that often they will kind
of allude to is the fact that we just feel
like we could be better deployed. There is something more
important that we could be doing than the aforementioned picking
up the trash, doing the mulching, painting signs. You know,
(25:26):
there are other things that they do that are important.
For example, the DC National Guard recently went to Ward eight,
which is a very crime ridden area, and they did
kind of a beautification thing and that's part of a
community involvement that the Guard has. And I'm sure Linda, overall,
(25:46):
I think these Guard members that are from other parts
of the country, they're a little bit mystified as to
why they're patrolling around DC.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Right now, Tom is calling in from Tallahassee, Florida. Tom,
what do you think of the Guard in cities?
Speaker 16 (26:03):
Oh, I think that in thinking that Trent presenting the
National Guard to the cities just for crime is so naive.
These are the first moves to prepare the public for
the next move. You just relate to each or something
from another listener that it was for a martial law. Actually,
(26:23):
what I'm saying that it is to prevent the fair
and free and fair elections in the next year or
in twenty twenty eight. This is just to prepare the
public for the bigger action in the blue city, in
the cities in the not for the swing states. He's
gonna deploy the National Guard to prevent the elections to
(26:45):
be free and fair. Maybe he's gonna put the soldiers
around the pressinct voting boots to produce disrupt the voting
process and everything. Think about it. The people who did
January sixth are not going to give the problem in elations.
Speaker 2 (27:03):
Tom, thank you for that. Yes, no, it's an interesting point,
and there are certainly people that do believe that general
saying that that this is something sort of getting people
used to the idea of troops on the streets in cities,
and that you know, Trump may want to do this
before an election.
Speaker 7 (27:20):
What do you think, Well, I mean, I'd recommend folks
go out and take a look.
Speaker 10 (27:25):
At Wargame, the movie that you kind.
Speaker 7 (27:27):
Of exactly, the documentary we kind of Tabletop is an
exercise very similar to this, and and I think what
we're potentially seeing unfold could be a lot more dangerous.
And I agree with a number of the listeners that
I think that there are other motives here that were
(27:49):
not paying attention to. And what I would caution everyone
is that, you know, let's not let the noise of
what is being pushed out really distort our view of
what is actually happening. And so just when I think
about overall, I think we're hit it off a cliff.
Speaker 19 (28:12):
Wow.
Speaker 18 (28:12):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Let me get to one more call before we take
a quick break. Here. Lee is in Asheville, North Carolina. Lee,
what do you think of the guard in cities?
Speaker 4 (28:23):
Hell?
Speaker 20 (28:25):
I guess when I think about like Portland, it's a
very peaceful city from everything that I know of it.
I think a lot of what the president's rhetoric might
illness be referring back to protests many years ago, like
in twenty twenty that were more disruptive to you know,
the daily life. But I really don't feel like at
(28:48):
present there are any protests there that are nearly disruptive
or anything that would merit it being called a.
Speaker 21 (28:54):
War zone quote unquote.
Speaker 20 (28:57):
And it really feels to me like he's trying to
have this chilling effect on protests and general dissent in
day to day life is what it feels like to me.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Anyway, Yeah, Lee, thank you for that. Mitchell Miller, I
won't ask you about Portland because you're not there, but
you're in Washington. Were people saying the same kind of
thing in DC when Trump sent the National Guard into
d C. Well, that doesn't feel like a war zone
to me.
Speaker 11 (29:26):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 12 (29:27):
I mean when the President said a few weeks ago
that people were afraid to go to a restaurant for
several years, that's just not true.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
People were some of the best restaurants in the country
are in Washington, right.
Speaker 11 (29:40):
It's a foody town. That's a whole another issua group.
Speaker 12 (29:42):
But so it was a disconnect for a lot of
people that lived here that. Yes, crime has been going up,
the crime in the eighties. When I first moved here
in the late eighties, there were four hundred and fifty
to five hundred murders a year. Now we're talking a
fraction of that, over one hundred. So it's a matter
(30:02):
of degree. And going back to the National Guard, it's
interesting because I was here in the Capitol where I
am right now when the National Guard was not called
initially during January sixth, and there were people down the
hall from where I am right now, pounding on doors,
going after people, and the National Guard was not activated
(30:23):
for a variety of reasons which we don't have to
go into here, but it just goes to show that
the National Guard can be held up in a lot
of different ways, whether it's a democratic governor not deciding
to bring in the National Guard to his state, or
whether it was the president during January.
Speaker 2 (30:42):
Sixth, well Tolliver. As we said, the National Guard has
been federalized a number of times throughout our history, including
during the civil rights erape.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
Yeah, President Lyndon Johnson sent troops into Detroit to quell
the nineteen sixty seven Detroit riots, but he was very
clear about why he was doing it.
Speaker 22 (30:56):
Law enforcement is a local matter, is the responsibility of
local officials and the governors of the respective states. The
federal government should not intervene except in the most extraordinary circumstances.
Speaker 11 (31:14):
The fact of the.
Speaker 22 (31:14):
Matter, however, is that law and order have broken down
in Detroit, Michigan, and the federal government, and the circumstances
here presented, had no alternative but to respond.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
And again that deployment was requested by the governor of Michigan,
who was at the time Mitt Romney's father, George.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Trump oh Binders full of Romney's man.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
That will be right back with more of your calls
on the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
This hour, we're asking you what you think of Trump's
use of the National Guard in American cities. You can
call us at eight four four four Middle, that's eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com.
I'm joined by WTP News Capitol Hill correspondent Mitchell Miller
(32:02):
in Washington, d C. And retired Major General Linda Singh
of the Maryland Army National Guard. And let's get right
back to the phones. And John, who's in Fort Worth, Texas. John,
what do you think about the National Guard in cities?
Speaker 19 (32:19):
Well, let me just start by saying I was the
first volunteer for Ukraine in twenty twenty two. I'm also
an Ambassador's Circle member to the Carter Center. And you know,
President Carter monitors about two hundred two hundred countries elections
to ensure they're free and fair. And I asked President Carter,
what good does it do for you to monitor elections everywhere?
(32:40):
If you have a guy like Vladimir Putin who literally
bombed his own people to get elected and said that
democracy is a stage card to dictatorship. Bombed his own
people in Reison, and the local police caught the FSB
planning bomb. Using terrorism to crack down on people's freedoms.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
That's what you see. That's what you see the National
Guard in cities as terrorism to crack down on people's freedoms.
Speaker 19 (33:09):
Absolutely absolutely, they're using chrome to get people to go
up their freedoms. And I'll tell you something else, it's
against the law. Forget everything else. There's a reason posse
commatatus exists. It's because of a Ludlow massacre when union
members struck to get better wages. The army came in
(33:32):
and machine gun.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
I'm glad that everything else, John, I'm glad you brought
up possecommatatus because we should explain that. And Linda saying
this is an act from like the eighteen hundreds that
basically says national Guard troops are National Guard is not
allowed to be used for civilian law enforcement. You tell
me if I didn't do that right, right?
Speaker 7 (33:55):
So you so there Again, it's very complicated when you
have to be in the right status. If they are
in a state status, then they can be used to
support local law enforcement.
Speaker 10 (34:09):
That's actually the place that you would.
Speaker 7 (34:11):
Want them to be because that's when they can be deputized.
They can support local law enforcement. When we're in a
Title thirty two status or a Title ten status, we
should not be used in that manner, and that's when
posscommatatis really applies. But what I think is, and we
can say that it's against the law, and the way
(34:34):
that they're being used today not necessarily true.
Speaker 10 (34:38):
They are actually.
Speaker 7 (34:39):
Using small snippets of wording to be able to do
this within their legal authority. The only thing I have
to say is it is a crisis, and it is
an emergency. And if I deem it as a crisis
in an emergency and I'm using that as the mechanism
and crime, or if it's you know, supporting ice agents
(35:02):
and I'm saying that, you know, we need to protect
federal property, then that gives the president the authority to
be able to do that.
Speaker 10 (35:10):
And I think people, you know.
Speaker 7 (35:11):
We should go out and be looking at how are
they using this in each of the different cities, because
they are slightly different.
Speaker 10 (35:18):
How are they using it?
Speaker 7 (35:20):
What is the terminology and what is the executive order
that's that's being pushed because it's it's very enlightening when
you start looking at how this is being done.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Fabio is calling us from Chicago high, Fabio, go ahead
with your thoughts.
Speaker 21 (35:37):
Hello, Jeremy, thanks for having me.
Speaker 17 (35:39):
Well.
Speaker 21 (35:40):
I think this is one of the steps this administation
is taken to put in place fascist regime. I don't
know which other words we can use now, what is
you know, I'm Italian, so we studied how Mussolini was
able to come to power. You know, he won the
elections like this present, indeed, and then he did every
(36:02):
step possible to take freedom and the ability to any
other group or political party to express their opinion or
to even act. I mean, it's putting the army in
the streets. ICE agents are all around the Chicago, this
beautiful city. I have to see in the streets people
with masks, you know, heavily armed. It's scaring for everybody,
(36:27):
not just for the immigrants that of course are risking
to be deported for sometimes absolutely no reasons. You know,
they are in the process to have a citizenship or
be allowed to live and work in this country. But
they are taking they are taken before being able to
go to court or while they are in court. So
(36:48):
it's it's really frightening. And as I say, this is
just one step right, the Attorney General of the United
States is the personal attorney of Donald Trump. I mean,
or we could just read the Project twenty twenty five right,
and that is the installation of a fascist regime. So
we are in a complete constitutional crisis right now with
(37:11):
this president that is doing whatever he wants right and left.
Speaker 2 (37:15):
And I think, just just to correct the record, I
believe it's the deputy attorney general that was the personal
attorney of Trump. The attorney general was the Attorney General
of Florida. Pambondi. But point take in Fabia. Thank you
very much for that. Mitchell Miller. You're in the You've
been in Washington for many years, decades, in fact, you're
(37:37):
in the political center of the country. These are things
that people around the country are saying right now. There
are you know, we've heard it on this show before,
not everybody believes it, but that we've now heard the
word fascism I think a few times in this hour.
What about on Capitol Hill? Is that being talked about
or does that sound just totally alien to people. If
(37:58):
we were to have members of Congress on here, if
they heard somebody say that, what would they think, Well.
Speaker 12 (38:03):
You know, I understand the concern, and they alluded to
earlier when the National Guard was first deployed. There were
people actually who were frankly not very nice to the
Guard personnel. They're just trying to do their job, and
people came up to them, they swore at them, they
were clearly angry at the fact that there were armed
National Guard members making patrols. On the other hand, I
(38:26):
would say that I think it's a little bit more benign,
at least at this point. These are people that are
just making patrols. They're doing a lot of different things,
just basically under order. And I also will say that
even though the crime has gone down, the President has
said it basically was eliminated.
Speaker 11 (38:45):
Of course, that's not true.
Speaker 12 (38:46):
Crime is never eliminated in any major city across the country,
no matter how many National Guard members, no matter how
many federal officers that you have on in the street.
And as just one small example, just a few blocks
from my house weeks ago, a DC fighter firefighter had
a gun put in his chest by a teenager and
(39:07):
he was almost killed.
Speaker 11 (39:08):
He grabbed the barrel of the.
Speaker 12 (39:09):
Gun and the gun went off and he was injured,
and the teenager was injured. So the crime is going
to continue to happen no matter what. But again, I
understand the concerns people have about the fact that you
have armed National Guard military personnel out on streets in
various cities across the country.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Well, and Linda Singh, as you said early on, this
is a temporary solution. It's not like the National Guard
troops would be there forever. If we did an entire
hour about crime, which by the way, is coming down
around the country, even if it is higher than in
other countries around the world. But one of the things
that our experts said in that hour was the reason
that other countries in Europe, let's say, have lower crime
(39:47):
is in part because they have way more police officers,
not temporarily on the streets, but permanently on the streets.
And also there are cameras everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 7 (39:55):
And they're repercussions the grinds, like I mean, and I
think we really do need to kind of get back
to focusing on the system and how do we change
the system for longer term advancement, and that means restructuring dollars.
You know, when we went away from or we went
(40:16):
through this whole defund the police, what were we.
Speaker 10 (40:19):
Expecting to happen?
Speaker 7 (40:21):
Like, were we expecting crime to just dissipate because we
decided that we wanted to start focusing on defunding the police.
I mean, you have to think about you know, some
of this we've kind of caused to come into place,
But when it gets to our National Guard, this is
a highly trained, strategic force that is used to support
(40:45):
active duty, active army, active Air Force in a deployed environment.
But what we also have to remember is the National
Guard as we are members of your community. We live
and we work in your communities. Were your mothers, your sisters,
your brothers, were your children, and so just keep in
(41:09):
mind that when you are in one of these cities
and you see them, they are being asked to carry
out an order, and if they were to say no,
they will get court martialed. They don't have that liberty
because they raise their hand. They took an oath, whether
we like it or not, they took an oath. And
(41:30):
so let's just keep in mind that you know, when
you see someone wearing that uniform on the street, just
keep in mind that they're probably a mother, a father,
a sister, or brother to someone.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Let's go to Bill, who's in Kalamazoo, Michigan. Hi, Bill,
what do you think of the National Garden Cities.
Speaker 17 (41:52):
Well, I think it's a disgrace. I agree with the General.
I think that I respect her, thank you for your service,
by the way, I respect her, And I think unfortunately
it's going to be up to our brave men and
women in uniform to hold the line if it's this
aggressive overreach it continues. I mean, we've got a president
(42:13):
who's watching b roll from Portland from twenty twenty and
projecting it out like it's modern day, like it's like
like it happened yesterday, and this is the reality our
our chief lives. And you've got a borders are who's
taking bags of money under the table, and then the
charges and the Flighty just just disappears somehow. And you've
got people on the other side where there's no good
(42:36):
faith arguments, there's no civil discourse. Even my educated friends
who are Republicans who have had for thirty years, there's
no talking. There's No, there's no good exchanges, there's no
civil discourse. It's it's me, my facts, and I cite
my facts and them either withdrawing or countering with Caroline
Levitt talking points. That's that's the reality we live in today,
(42:56):
and it's horrific and it's shameful and I'm embarrassed.
Speaker 2 (42:59):
Thank you for the time, Bill, Thank you very much,
Mitchell Miller. As you hear that on Capitol Hill, is
that the conversation do you see just Republicans saying this
is good and Democrats saying this is bad? Among lawmakers?
Speaker 12 (43:13):
Yeah, what he was saying resonated with me, because I
hear it all the time. Both sides point fingers at
each other and say the other one is just worse
than the other side. And you've seen it, you know,
as we're going forward with this government shutdown right now,
that it just exacerbates it. But you see it all
the time in congressional hearings, and there is very little
(43:36):
across the aisle discussions among lawmakers today that there used
to be. And you know, not to go back to
halcyon days from the past, but there was a time
when lawmakers from both parties actually would discuss things thoughtfully
and try to come to solutions. And right now, what
they generally try to do, and both parties do this
(43:58):
is they try to put political points up on the board,
and that's really the bottom line for each of the parties.
Speaker 2 (44:04):
You mentioned the government shutdown. I know Tolliver's been seeing
a lot of people asking the question online of whether
the troops are being paid during the government shutdown or
does the government shutdown have any impact on the ability
of the National Guardsmen to be deployed.
Speaker 12 (44:24):
It does not affect them in terms of they are
not getting paid, so they are like many other military
personnel across the country because of the federal government shutdown.
Now there's been a lot of talk about the fact
that the administration might move around some funds to make
things available, but essentially, the people that are out of
(44:45):
work right now or furloughed by the government, they are
not getting paid, including the military, unless they're considered essential personnel.
And you had to go back to twenty nineteen, which
was the longest government shutdown ever, close to thirty five
days after that, Congress decided we need to make members
(45:06):
of the federal government and the military whole again and
so they will get paid whenever this government shut down
eventually ends.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
Right, but that could be a while, and it's not
easy to go without a paycheck for a long period
of time, especially right now with the cost of everything.
Let's go to Jackson, who's in Lee's summit Missouri. Jackson,
welcome to the middle go ahead.
Speaker 6 (45:31):
Hi, thanks for having me. I think too kind of
understand the study. There's really two things we need to
remember about Trump. Number One, he's just kind of he's
a big messaging guy, right, Like if you take one
of his biggest projects from his first term, the Boiderwall,
didn't really ever get finished, right. And another thing is
that he's really someone who values loyalty a lot. So
(45:55):
I think if this one thing, we want something good
to come out of this whole national good situation, I
think that the governors and maybe the mayors of these
cities could take this opportunity to embrace the National Guard,
right because, like as we saw in Washington, d C.
They don't really get or the National Guard troops don't
really have the opportunity to enforce the law so much
(46:15):
as just like provide public work services and that kind
of thing that can be of value to cities, and
so I think this is a good opportunity for governors
and mayors to build opportunity or build relationships with the
President and to have something good come out of this.
Because to be clear, I do believe that it is
a slippery slope and that this isn't really a good thing.
But I think that Trump is really a big messaging guy,
(46:37):
and I'm really not sure that this whole National Guard
occupations will go to one of those groom day situations
we've heard a lot about.
Speaker 2 (46:43):
Yeah, thanks Jackson, Linda sing, what do you think about that?
What would you think about you know? JB. Pritzker, the
Democratic governor of Illinois saying Okay, you know, if this
is what's going to happen, why don't I just embrace
it and say great, thank you. Can you please, you know,
clean up the city of Chicago for me?
Speaker 10 (47:00):
I mean, so there is a level of where that
would work, right, like if that.
Speaker 7 (47:07):
Would put them a little bit more in control. But
I think it's challenging because if you don't feel like
there is a need to have the National Guard deployed
in your city, you're going to kind of stand firm
on that.
Speaker 10 (47:21):
And so if a governor.
Speaker 7 (47:25):
Says, okay, I would like to have federal resources, why
does it have to be the National Guard?
Speaker 2 (47:31):
Right?
Speaker 7 (47:32):
Why can't it be other federal dollars? Why can't it
be something else instead? If they say yes, we want this,
they're not getting other federal resources. There's so many other
levers that we could pull. Instead, we're just pulling National Guard.
And there are times which we really need them, right,
(47:52):
And so when we think about Katrina, or when you know,
there was the civil disturbance, the Freddie Gray incident in Baltimore,
we came in in a support capacity behind law enforcement.
We did not take the lead. We were not there
for ever. As soon as things were stabilized.
Speaker 10 (48:13):
As soon as we felt like we could withdraw, we left.
Speaker 7 (48:19):
Just as quickly as we came in, and we turned it.
We made sure that we turned everything back over to
the local law enforcement.
Speaker 10 (48:28):
Right. So we were partnered with them all the way.
Speaker 7 (48:31):
So it can work as long as there is a plan,
as long as we know what the criteria is.
Speaker 10 (48:38):
What are they supposed to do? So what is the mission?
Speaker 7 (48:41):
What is the impact that you want to be able
to achieve? And that's what we're not talking about and
then how are we going to measure that?
Speaker 10 (48:48):
Right?
Speaker 7 (48:49):
You know, we heard Mitchell actually talking about these the
measurements that are not there, Well, how are you going
to measure whether or not you are achieving those particular effects?
So it should be a little bit more strategic, a
little bit more planned. If you think about New Mexico,
I think the New Mexico governor actually deployed their National
Guard in a way that allows law enforcement to be
(49:10):
able to do more. It's very intentional, it was very direct,
and they understand what their mission is. So that's what
we need to be thinking about, is making sure that
we are not just doing it and saying, Okay, get
out there and now do what you need to do.
Speaker 2 (49:26):
What is that mission that will have to be the
last word. That's retired Major General Linda Singh of the
Maryland Army National Guard. We've also been speaking with WTOP
News Capitol Hill correspondent Mitchell Miller. Thanks so much to
both of you for joining us. Thank you, Hi, Pleasure,
and thanks to everyone who called in. Thanks to our
friends here at LAist in Pasadena for hosting us this week.
Cosmic Pagosian at the board, Bianca Ramirez Jeff Row and
(49:49):
Rick Esparza. Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast. We've
got extra episodes of our One Thing Trump Did podcast
every week, available only on The Middle podcast feed, And
next week we're going to be back here asking you
how the government shutdown is affecting you. And if it's
over by then, we've got a secret plan for our show,
so stay tuned. We have to plan this whether it
happens or not.
Speaker 3 (50:09):
Either way, our number is eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four and three three
five three, or you can reach out at listen to
the Miiddle dot com. We can also sign up for
our free weekly newsletter.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
The Middle is brought to you by LONGOK Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and or Bana, Illinois. Produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny, Alexander Samburmstas, John barth On, a Codesslar,
and Brandon Condritz. Our technical director is Steve Morc. I'm
Jeremy Hobson and I will talk to you next week
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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