November 14, 2025 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we're joined by BBC Chief International Correspondent Lyse Doucet, author of the new book "The Finest Hotel in Kabul." Doucet has reported for decades from hot spots all over the world. DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus calls from around the country. #MiddleEast #Ukraine #Gaza #Iran #Israel #Tariffs #War #Trump #China #Europe #globalaffairs #worldnews
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
the show and from you. Thanks for making a donation
at listen Toothmiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to the Middle of Jeremy Hobson along with our
house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver there are certain guests that
we have to try really hard to book in advance.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Yeah, Neil Degrest Tyson is not an easy booking man.
And his rider it's a million miles long.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's great, he's a writer. Neither is Andrew Yang, Neither
is Katie Kirk or our guest this hour, who is
one of the world's most recognized and accomplished foreign correspondents,
but also someone who is usually not in a time
zone that works for our live show. That would be
Lee's do Set, the chief international correspondent for the BBC,
and we are so excited to have her with us
this hour while she's in North America, and we're going
(00:49):
to be talking about her new book about Afghanistan, but
also taking your calls on some of the big global
issues in the news. So get your questions ready at
eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four fours
six four three three five three. We'll get to that
just a moment. But first, what a show last week
when we asked you if you're afraid that AI will
take your job? So many great calls during the show,
(01:10):
and here are some of the voicemails that came in.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I am Austin, I'm a locksmith, and UIs Texas and
I am not worried about.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
AI taking my job. Potentially it could help in some ways.
I think a lot of blue collar work is probably
going to be pretty safe.
Speaker 6 (01:28):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
My name is Tuesday and I'm from Salt Lake City, Utah.
I'm not worried that AI has replaced my job. It
already has. So it's frustrating that I got a creative
writing degree and then chat GPT came out a year later,
and so it has already replaced me in a lot
of ways.
Speaker 7 (01:47):
This is Daniel from Denver, Colorado. I am currently a
maintenance manager. Currently I am not concerned about with him
my job to AI. I have asked some questions about
how to trouble shoot the machinery, and a lot of
the answers that I get is how you try plugging
it in? And so it's at this point not smart enough, not.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Smart enough yet. Thanks to everyone who called in. As always,
you can hear that whole show by subscribing to the
Middle wherever you get your podcasts at toliver. Before I
bring in our guest, just remind people how they can
reach us with their questions.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah, you can call us at eight four four four
Middle that's eight four four four six four three three
five three, or you can write to us at Listen
to the Middle dot com or comment on our live
stream on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well, without further ado, it is my pleasure to welcome
Lese do Set, the BBC's chief international correspondent to the Middle.
Speaker 6 (02:34):
Least welcome, Welcome, cheermy I have to say, just listening
to that, are we worried that AA is going to
take our jobs?
Speaker 8 (02:42):
Me and you talking?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Actually yes, journalists are like high on the list here.
I think we're in big, big trouble.
Speaker 8 (02:48):
But this marked harge.
Speaker 6 (02:50):
Here we are on the program the Middle, and we're
at the in the heart of where it's happening across
the Canada US board or me and you talking together.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Way and wait till you hear are callers because it's
really it is a lot of fun. But you've got
a new book out. It's called the finest hotel in Kable,
and I want to start there because Afghanistan is, you know,
as you know, is America's longest war. You've been reporting
from Afghanistan for decades, starting in the eighties, and you
write your book through the lens of a luxury hotel
(03:19):
in Kabble, which you've stayed in many, many times. What
can you learn about the recent history of the country
through a hotel.
Speaker 8 (03:29):
Good.
Speaker 6 (03:29):
Thank you very much, Jeremy. It's great to be on
your programs. We've tried a long time to do this
and it's very kind of you to mention my new book.
And I think I have to underline and I think
this is something that both you and I have to
deal with, is that people are getting tired of depressing news,
glum news, grim news, things going wrong.
Speaker 8 (03:50):
And in our business we.
Speaker 6 (03:52):
Have something called news avoidance. And I thought people can't
avoid the news because those wars far away, those conflicts,
including Afghanistan. Mentioned that Afghanistan was America's longest war. American
recent American history, in fact, for decades, has been threaded
through Afghanistan. So I wanted to explore a different kind
(04:12):
of storytelling, to use the power of literature of some
of the conventions of fiction writing to write a true story,
a non fiction story, and you know we sometimes use
this expression the story of the story.
Speaker 8 (04:26):
I needed a prism, a conceit.
Speaker 6 (04:28):
Not just to give out just wadges of information about Afghanistan.
Speaker 8 (04:31):
No one's going to want to read that.
Speaker 6 (04:33):
I wanted to tell a story of history through the
lives of people. And it was this first luxury hotel,
the first five star international hotel in Kobble, which was
built when Afghanistan was a kingdom, and which saw so
much of Afghan history decade after decade, over fifty years,
(04:54):
through every possible political system the world has tried that
went through this whole hotel. History literally lives within its walls.
And of course for me, it was my first Afghan home.
Speaker 8 (05:06):
I went to.
Speaker 6 (05:07):
I stayed in the hotel for nearly a year to
cover what was really the biggest story of that time,
the Soviet troop withdrawal from Afghanistan. The hotel became my home,
and the people running the hotel became my friends and
they are to this day.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
And in that period of time, this was in the
eighties that you were there for the first time, what
would you say, is the golden era of Afghanistan in
those last forty or so years.
Speaker 8 (05:31):
Ah, interesting that word golden.
Speaker 6 (05:34):
It's well, it's how Afghanis describe those first years when
Afghanistan was still a kingdom. It wasn't perfect by any measure,
but it was the time before war. So they looked
back at that period with great with great longing, and
the hotel was very much a part of that time.
(05:54):
Afghanistan was run by a mild mannered, French educated king,
zayre Shah, trying to balance Afghanistan's relationship with the West
and the east, between the United States and the Soviet
Union at the time of a very very intense Cold
War as we called it. In building this first five
star hotel was a symbol of his efforts to modernize Afghanistan,
(06:19):
to open it up to the world.
Speaker 8 (06:21):
Of course, then it was a bubble.
Speaker 6 (06:22):
It was geographically on a pine covered hill on the
edge of the city, above the city's cares. It was
an ex luxurious hotel which was only for the fortunate
in life or those who had a fortune, the royals,
the wealthy tourists, the diplomats, the privileged merchants. But it
(06:43):
was and It was a time when there was bikinis
by the swimming pool, cocktails on the roof.
Speaker 8 (06:48):
Even Americans who were there.
Speaker 6 (06:49):
At the time said, Lee's I never tastedes cargo in
the United States or ober Jin. Thomas Kutier is one
of the world's leading experts on Afghanist lives in Old Omaha,
son of a baker, and he was there as a
Peace Corps volunteer and then went on to stay.
Speaker 8 (07:06):
And he said, Leeds, we never had scargo. I never
tasted oberjein in Omaha.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
It really was then for a certain rarefied for part
of life.
Speaker 8 (07:17):
It was described as the Paris of Asia.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Well, and today, I mean you were there. Let's go
to twenty twenty one, because you were there at this
key moment when the US had to withdraw when the
Taliban took over the country and they evacuated tens of
thousands of people from Afghanistan in a very short period
of time. But then there was the suicide bombing at
the airport, one hundred and eighty people killed, thirteen American troops.
(07:44):
President Biden got a lot of criticism for how that
withdraw was handled. President Trump has said it was a
humiliation for the United States. How do you see it
that withdrawal.
Speaker 6 (07:55):
Everyone has to share the blame for that. President Trump's
first administration, which decided that it was time to talk
to the Taliban, even though previous governments had said, We're
not going to talk directly to the Taliban until the
Taliban also agree to talk to the Afghan government to
move towards to end the war, move towards a representative government.
(08:17):
President Trump had promised that he would bring all the
American soldiers home.
Speaker 8 (08:22):
That obviously went.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
Down well in America. Then when President Biden took over,
he decided to continue with that policy. And President Biden,
remember was someone who had never approved of sending troops
to Afghanistan during president when he was vice president during
Obama's time, four American presidents, Republican and Democrat, had tried
(08:46):
to end this long war, which, as you say, began
became America's longest war. But Jeremy, what Afghan said at
the time and say to this day, Look, we knew
that it was time for the troops to leave it
it had been twenty years, but what we disagreed with
was the way that they left. You may remember at
that time there was all this discussion that the United
(09:06):
States wanted to avoid a Saigon situation, the disastrous would
pull out from Vietnam, and you got Saigon in multiplied
by one hundred, those wide those aircrafts taking off from
Koble Airport, Afghan's clinging to the underbelly of the plane,
a rush of panic towards towards the towards the aircraft.
Speaker 8 (09:30):
It was a debacle and you can only call it.
Call it that. So it ended very very badly, and
we see the result today.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
With well and today you know, after all of that,
how important do you think Afghanistan is to the United States.
This was, of course the place where the nine to
eleven attacks were planned, where Bin Laden was.
Speaker 6 (09:54):
There was those who follow Afghanistan closely, and I'm sure
many of your your listeners do and your viewers. And
there's still a lot of pain out there, pain in America,
pain in Canada, where I am pain in all pain
mostly about about afghan among Afghans and all the other
countries who contributed troops, who sent their diplomats, who spent
(10:16):
their eight dollars, who lost lost lives, and only to
see the Taliban return again when after the terrible attacks
of September eleventh in the United States blamed on the
al Qaeda leader Osama had bin Laden. First of all,
it was about finding Osama bin Laden, bringing down the Taliban.
Speaker 8 (10:36):
And then the cold posts seemed to keep shifting.
Speaker 6 (10:40):
Was America there just for to protect America's security, which
is of course a very important goal. Was it about
protecting the women and girls of Afghanistan?
Speaker 8 (10:50):
Was it about nation building?
Speaker 6 (10:52):
And as the more and more troops went, more and
more AID dollars, had more and more ambitions.
Speaker 8 (10:57):
They call it.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
Mission creep, to the point that for the Americans, for
the British and others they said, well, why are we
in Afghanistan? We're digging in deeper and deeper and deeper,
and all the while the Tuliban started coming back.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Well, stand by, I want to tell our listeners again
you can reach us with your questions about Afghanistan, or
the US role in the world, or other key hotspots.
For Liz who said at eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five
three Tolliver. As we said, Leez was in Afghanistan for
the withdrawal of the troops back in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, one of the most dramatic moments here she is
reporting for the BBC. Back then, take a listen.
Speaker 6 (11:32):
There is a crush of people desperate to get in
to try and get on a flight to anywhere in
the world. Even though this is such a painful time.
So many of the people we met broke down in
tears that this has happened. Also suddenly, also shockingly that
they don't want to leave. Their lives are here, but
(11:53):
they feel that if they ever had the idea, either
for themselves or for their children to leave, that this
is the moment, and that when that window shuts, it
may shut forever for them.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
What a moment. That was such an historic moment. We'll
be right back with your calls for Lee's du set
coming up on the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm
Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning. In the Middle is
a national call in show or focused on elevating voices
from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically, or maybe you
just want to meet in the middle. This hour, we
(12:29):
are taking your questions on global issues with the BBC's
chief International correspondent, Lee's do set. That is such an
open ended thing. You can ask les whatever you want
about world news. Tolliver, what is the number again to
call in?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
It's eight four four for Middle that's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
And before we get to the phones, Lee's after all
these years, do you still get scared worried for your
safety when you go to these dangerous places?
Speaker 6 (13:03):
I think now we understand a lot more about safety
and security, and so for not just for the BBC,
but for I see colleagues from national public radio broadcasters
of the world over, media the world over. We prepare
for the risks. We think about the risks beforehand. We're
all trained to how to work in high risk environments,
so you're already thinking before you go about what the
(13:25):
risks are out there, be it Ukraine or in Sudan
or in Afghanistan, wherever you go. And then you have
to decide what is the risk worth taking and what
to do if something terrible happens. And one of the
gifts of being a television and radio broadcaster is that
we go in a team. And also if I'm in Afghanistan,
(13:45):
I work with an Afghan. In Syria, I work with
the Syrian.
Speaker 8 (13:47):
In Sudan, I.
Speaker 6 (13:48):
Work with someone who's Sudanese. And that gives you an
extra level of protection because no matter how long we
spend in a country, we will never know about that
country as much as someone from that country. So we
build in the layers, and that gives me that level
of confidence. And finally, I would say for many of
these places, when I think about going to Cobble or
(14:10):
Cartoon or Aman or Jerusalem or many of these places,
I've spent so much time in them already that I
don't think of it as a story. I think, oh,
I'm going to see this person. I know, oh, I'll
be able to go back with this place. And that
also gives me a level of confidence because I've been
there and I have a little bit. I've lived through
at least a bit of the history. As I prepare
(14:31):
to go back to a new time of history.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Let's get to the funds. Rachel is calling in from Phoenix, Arizona. Rachel,
go ahead with your question for Liz du set.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Hi.
Speaker 9 (14:45):
I just want to know Lee's first all big fan.
But since you've been all over the world and talked
to so many different kinds of people. Do you believe
that the perception of Americans has changed under the current administration?
Speaker 8 (14:57):
Great question, reception of America?
Speaker 6 (15:01):
Well, it depends great to get a call from Arizona.
I was at the University of Arizona last year and
loved it, loved the cactide. So thank you very much
and thank you for following the BBC. I think it has,
but I don't think it's It's not black and white.
There are parts of the world who see President Donald
(15:21):
Trump as a great president. I was in Jerusalem when
he came to Jerusalem to sign the deal which brought
about the first the ceasefire in the first phase of
what's called his twenty point Please Pan. Then he went
on to Charmel shake. There's great skepticism about whether whether
this will quickly moved. It's certainly not peace now, but
(15:42):
at least he brought some of the fighting to an end,
helped to bring the twenty Israeli hostages home, and the
remains of the others are coming. So he was fated
there as someone who can finally can finally bring about
some of the some of the some of the results
that people have been hoping for. But I'm talking to
you from Canada, and of course, in Canada, we are
(16:06):
very very unhappy with a president who has threatened us
with annexing the country, has imposed swinging tariffs which are
having an increasingly negative effect and very worrying effect on
the Canadian economy. It has helped Canadians to rally around
the flag. So I think there's a mixed picture across
(16:26):
the world, and it will all depend not just what
President Trump says, but what he does.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
A lot of the places in the United States that
rely on Canadian tourists have been seeing big drops in
people coming in over the last many months for exactly
that reason. Let's go to Fury, who is calling in
from Dallas, Texas. Fury, go ahead with your question for
list two.
Speaker 10 (16:48):
Said, I want to ask your guest if she heard
this version. Some of the earlier American generals had a
statement that Avlanissan was never conquered by the British and
Jenghis Khan and the Russians, and they were going to
conquer it. I don't know if she's ever heard that
or not.
Speaker 7 (17:06):
I have.
Speaker 10 (17:07):
And the second comment I had from one of my
friends at CIA was that the reason we are not
going to win this war is but the guy who
makes a dollar a day and has bent to kill
the invaders, and the invaders will cost us ten thousand
dollars a day. Eventually, I'm going to run out of the money.
So I just want to comment, if she's heard of
(17:29):
these two comments our years in Afghanistan.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
Okay, thank you, thank you so much, and thank you
for following Afghanistan so closely. Afghans don't want to be conquered.
They're not the only people who would say that. Canadians
don't want to be conquered either. Americans don't want to
be a conquer but Afghans, certainly because of their they've
been cursed by their geography, being landlocked in a previous century,
(17:53):
the Russians and the British Imperial Russian perid fighting over
Afghanistan to reach, as they say, the warm waters of
the Indian Ocean. You mentioned some of the other invaders.
They're very proud, a very proud, a very proud people.
And then when you get back to after the US
led invasion of Afghanistan, which toppled the Taliban, I wouldn't
(18:13):
put it in the way that was put with a
one dollar versus the ten thousand dollars. But what I
would say is that Afghanistan remains. For all that's been lost,
and there's been a lot of loss, that Afghans haven't
lost their deeply ingrained sense of hospitality.
Speaker 8 (18:30):
And had there not been the air raids and.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Raids on the ground, the Special Forces raids into Afghan villages,
the bombing of villages to try to destroy the Taliban
infrastructure to kill the Taliban, which also killed civilians destroyed villages, then.
Speaker 8 (18:47):
Afghans would have been more welcoming.
Speaker 6 (18:49):
They welcomed the Americans and the international community with open arms.
Afghans dared to believe this would be the beginning of peace,
only to find people being rounded up and sent to
go Ontonamo Bay. I know that at the time America
was angry. They wanted to find the people that they
thought were responsible for the September eleventh attacks, But a
lot of people who were not responsible did end up
(19:11):
in Guantanamo Bay, and a lot of people in their
villagers lived through violence which led them to actually turn
away from the people that they thought they could have
welcomed with open arms. So I think it's more how
you behave on the ground. And I should say that
the Americans didn't. Americans brought a lot of aid. They
did bring some development. It wasn't just a one way street.
But there was bad mixed with the good, and that
(19:33):
did turn the minds of some Afghans and did contribute
then to the rise of the Taliban and their return
to power.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well, speaking of welcoming people with open arms, some two
hundred thousand Afghans resettled in the United States after the war,
and now the Trump administration has removed the temporary protected
status for many of them, so they have to leave again.
What do you make of that? Where are they going
to go?
Speaker 6 (20:01):
Can you imagine being in the shoes of Afghans who
finally reach America, the land of the Free and the
home of the brave, including those who took on the
very risky jobs of translating for American troops.
Speaker 8 (20:15):
Where the eyes and ears of the.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Americans on the ground, who work for American aid agencies,
who feel their lives are threatened by staying in Afghanistan,
and some of them took very dangerous journeys to reach
the United States, and then finally they arrive on American soil,
they breathe a sigh of relief and are now being
told that the special state is for Afghans because of
this relationship where Americans and Afghans work together, that that's
(20:40):
being lifted. I mean, it's a desperately, desperately anxious time,
a very very fearful time for so many. Where are
they going to go. They don't want to go back
to Afghanistan. They don't want to go to a country
where they don't feel safe. Many of them have family
in the United States. And I don't need to tell
you that that's brought part of a much more order
picture of immigration in the United States. And I would
(21:03):
emphasize that is a big issue immigration in the United States.
It's a big issue in Britain, where I live. It's
even an issue in Canada, where this is an economy
built on immigration. But that particular measure is causing not
just angst and anger and fear among Afghans, but also
among US veterans who work so closely other groups helping
(21:24):
the Afghans.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
A reminder to our listeners that were taking questions on
all things, not just Afghanistan, but Tolliver maybe there's a
question that's come in at Listen to the Middle dot Com.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, well, okay, so a lot of people are asking
about what a realistic into the one in Ukraine looks like.
So maybe we can touch on that at some point.
And then Joanna Minneapolis specifically says, please talk about the
ban on international correspondence in Gaza. How is that allowed
to proceed for years?
Speaker 8 (21:49):
M Yes, which one did you like to tack on?
Speaker 11 (21:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Why don't you start with Gaza briefly? And then I
want to I do want to ask you about Ukraine.
Speaker 6 (22:00):
Well after the on Occlub of the thirteenth, when President
Trump came to the Middle East, to Jerusalem and to
Charmlshak in Egypt, that marked the start of the first
phase of this at the start of the ceasefire. It's fragile,
but it's not perfect. There is still Israeli bombing, there's
(22:20):
still fighting, but it's much better than it was before.
And then there was a suggestion, there was a lot
of discussion in Israel that now would be the time
to at long last allow journalists to go independently into
Gaza to see the war, to see the result of
this grievous war, the worst that the Middle East has
seen for the first time all that has been allowed
(22:43):
so far. And one of my colleagues, Lucy Williams, in
one of our Middle East correspondents, did go in with
the Israeli army. But they're only allowed to go into
those areas still controlled by Israel. They're beyond what you
I'm sure your viewers listeners have heard a yellow line.
Israel still controls fifty three percent of the Gaza strips,
(23:03):
so they're not allowed to go into the areas where
Palestinians are. They're not allowed to talk to Palestinians.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So it's a very very own safety. That's not just
about their own safety, that's Israel doesn't want them. What
doesn't want the journalists to be talking to ordinary Palestinians.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
Well, I mean, we have to ask as journalists if
the Israelis are preventing journalists from going in. They say
there are security reasons, but the war has more or
less largely stopped, so why not let journalists into Gaza.
So the prevailing view is that there must be something
(23:41):
to hide. Of course, we have seen what has been
the scenes on the ground, the absolutely apocalyptic scenes. It
is absolutely astonishing to see how much of Gaza now
lies in ruin, how Gazins are forced to huge displacement,
some as many as fifteen times living intents. The infrastructure.
(24:03):
The United Nations sens up to ninety percent of the
infrastructure of Gaza is destroyed. I mean, I have asked
any how could any of us live in those kinds
of conditions.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
But you're saying this ceasefire is holding for now, but fragile,
but very fragile there. What about the what would you
call it a stalemate right now with Ukraine? With what's
happening in Ukraine.
Speaker 8 (24:23):
Yes, it's a war of attrition.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
It's a grinding war with growing losses on both sides.
The Russians are making advances. They are really closing in
on a really important juncture called pro cross comes to
those who follow closely will have heard that they've said
they've taken percrofts of That is a real junction in
(24:45):
terms of symbolically but also in terms of transportation links,
supply lines. And the estimate now is that Russian forces
control about nineteen percent of Ukrainian territory. Of course, we
have President Trump who came to powers saying well, in
the election campaign he boasted he could end the war
in a day. Then he came to power and he said, well,
(25:07):
it'll take one hundred days. And he goes back and forth.
He said, most recently during the visit of Victor Orbon
of Hungary, we want the war to end in the
near future. Before that, he said, oh, they still have
to keep fighting.
Speaker 8 (25:19):
They want to keep fighting. It's a terrible it's a
terrible war.
Speaker 6 (25:24):
For the Russian soldiers who are dying in huge numbers,
for the Ukrainian troops who are exhausted but are still
defiant that they're not going to give up their country
to Russian occupation. And the people of Ukraine who dazzled
inspired the world when they stood up. I was in
Kieva at that time to Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine.
Speaker 8 (25:45):
Unbelievable.
Speaker 6 (25:46):
We thought that this would happen in our time. And
they fought back. They pushed Russian forces back on the
outskirts of Giv in some other places.
Speaker 8 (25:56):
But now they just haven't been able to match.
Speaker 6 (25:59):
The Russian soldier by soldier, and Russia is now on
an industrial on a war footing. It has a war
war economy, and the other interesting jeremy about it is
that it's this reality of the war on the ground
that some parts of the war being fought in the
trenches like the first of the Second World War, and
the other part of the war is being fought in
the skies with these most modern of drones that are
(26:23):
causing so much suffering. They're getting into Russian territory as well.
But for the lives of Ukrainians, hitting the energy infrastructure,
hitting residential areas, it's again, it's really really unimaginable that
this should be happening out of time. The rules of
war are being shattered on an industrial scale.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
And so close to so many places in Europe that
so many, probably of our listeners visit, and it's just
amazing that it's happening right there. Let's sneak in another
call before we have to take a quick break. Martha
is calling from Oak Park, Illinois. Martha, your question for
Lez two set.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
Hi.
Speaker 12 (27:02):
Yes, thanks for taking my call. I was wondering about
in Sudan and I've been reading that it's being described
as the worst humanitarian crisis that's ongoing right now. Do
you agree with that? But also what's been the impact
of kind of the cutbacks in USAID in that situation,
and what might be the solutions without that.
Speaker 6 (27:26):
Great question marko Oh, thank you so much, and thank
you very much for asking about the dismantling of usai D.
You know, I've said to people that it was for
the rest of the world who had come to appreciate
American generosity. Had millions of the world over we're living
with the benefits of American generosity. And when the AI
(27:50):
usa ID was dismantled, it was it didn't seem that
this caused at least in America, too much was happening,
and that there wasn't enough protests protests about it because
so much was also happening.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
At that time, going yeah, but.
Speaker 8 (28:04):
It's had a devastating effect.
Speaker 6 (28:05):
And I'm sure because you sound like someone and thank
you very much for being someone who follows the news
closely that you know, despite the denials, that millions are
dying because they don't have access to life saving drugs
HIV patients.
Speaker 8 (28:19):
In Afghanistan.
Speaker 6 (28:20):
It's had a huge, colossal effect that hospitals have closed down, the.
Speaker 8 (28:26):
Hunger is is growing.
Speaker 6 (28:28):
Women's education that was being funded through USAID, The secret
schools and internet learning. They that's also closed down, and yes,
in Sudan as well, which it also benefited from. And
of course the world thanks the United States for being
so generous. But I suppose that is the you know,
was seen as part of it, and so one administration
(28:50):
after and I saw it as part of America's.
Speaker 8 (28:52):
Role in the world, being a compass for the world.
I'm so glad you asked about Sudan.
Speaker 6 (28:59):
And I don't know, Jeremy, how often people ask about
Sudan on your program. It is the forgotten war. Of course, Gaza, Ukraine,
these are major conflicts of our time that draw in
so many countries far and wide. But Sudan is an
atrocious war in every way. I'm it's another place where
it's been very, very hard for journalists.
Speaker 8 (29:20):
To get in.
Speaker 6 (29:20):
I managed my last trip was it was a year ago.
I went with the UN with the first visit of
the UN Humanitarian Chief, Tom Fletcher, and he said, I'm
going to Sudan to make the point that Sudan needs help.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah, it's interesting. I think about you as somebody who
might be happy if they had a flight from Khartoon
to keif it would make it easier for you to
get back in front having to go back to London. Yes,
our guests, at least you said, has also been to Iran,
which is very difficult for journalists to visit.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
That's right. Listen to this report from the capital city
of Tehran, just after a tentative ceasefire was reached following
a twelve big conflict between Iran and Israel earlier this year.
Speaker 6 (30:04):
Day two of the ceasefire, and despite its shaky start,
it seems to be holding and traffic is starting to
return to the streets of Tehran. The city is starting
to look like itself, but so many of the cafes,
the shops, the government of offices are still shut. So
many residents fled this city once Israeli attack started, and
(30:25):
they seem to be waiting until the end of the
Iranian weekend, which starts tomorrow to see whether it truly holds.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Tehran a city I would love to visit some day.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, this is a book I love called Persepolis, written
about Till Yeah writes checking out graphic novel. I've never
heard of it, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Tlliver's book book suggests looking next. If you haven't signed
up by the way for the Middle newsletter. Please do
that and listen to the Middle dot com. You get
Tlliver's tidbits every week. It's not to be missed. We'll
be right back with more of your calls on the Middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. In this hour,
we're taking your calls about anything happening in the world
(31:05):
for the BBC's chief international correspondent, lids to Set. Her
new book is called The Finest Hotel in Kabble. You
can reach us at eight four four four Middle that
is eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can write to us at listen to the
Middle dot com. Let's go right back to the phones
and Victor, who is calling from Los Angeles. Victor, go
ahead with your question for Lis du Set.
Speaker 11 (31:27):
Yes Hi. Great discussion and good to hear how you've
traveled the world. One thing that hasn't come up, and
it bothers them to me, when the fall of Afghanistan
occurred was the plight of women in that country and
the loss of their civil rights. And it's not being
talked about a lot, and I'm just wondering how things going.
Are things getting better for women to be able to
(31:49):
be free and read and go to school, or are
they getting worse?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Thank you great question, Victor.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (31:55):
Li's Doo said, bless you Victor for asking about God,
because what I hear so often from Afghans they say
everyone's forgotten us, nobody cares about us anymore. But I
think you would agree with me, Victor, and I'm sure
everyone who listens to this program. How can we accept
that we live in a world where there's a country
which doesn't allow girls to go to school beyond grade six,
(32:18):
doesn't allow women to go to university, bans women from
many of.
Speaker 8 (32:23):
The jobs women do still work. If you go to Kobble,
the women.
Speaker 6 (32:26):
Are working at the international airport, They are working in
some private companies as long as they're segregated with the men.
But you know, Victor, when the Taliban were engaged in
talks with the Americans about the withdrawal of the last
American forces, about what the Americans said had to also
be a move towards discussion about power sharing in Kobble,
(32:47):
they are across Afghanistan. Taliban leaders told US foreign correspondence,
but they told Afghan women negotiators that they wouldn't rule
the way that they did the first time round. They
understood that they couldn't be as so harsh, that girls
would be educated, women would work, women could hold many positions.
But week on week it becomes even worse, so much
(33:07):
so that Afghans say now that it's even worse than
it was.
Speaker 8 (33:11):
In the nineties.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
The Taliban, the top leadership of the Taliban, have promulgated
edicts of more than seventy most of them having to
do with more and more restrictions on the lives of
women and girls. But I will say that on my
last trip, and I've been trying to since Antigativisa two
years ago, i met a founding member of the Taliban
who I've known for many years, and he said to me,
(33:35):
he said, ninety five percent of the Taliban, ninety five
percent don't agree with the harshest of these edicts. Yes,
we're a conservative country, Yes we're Muslim, and we have
our traditions and values, but Islam gives girls the right
to be educated, women to pursue their potential, to which,
of course, when I put that on social media, Afghan said, well,
(33:56):
why aren't you doing something about it? But the Taliban
value more than anything else their unity. They don't want
to splinter, they want to maintain control. And so those
Taliban leaders who've spoken out, some of them have had
to leave because they've called so publicly for girls to
be educated.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
And the way it.
Speaker 6 (34:14):
Described was described to me recently by an Afghan friend
who keeps a very close eye. He said that it's
like this big pressure is building up against this wall
of this ultra conservative leaders who are promulgating these edicts.
The wall is very thick and there's little cracks, but
there's not enough of a push, and we'll have to
come from within Afghanistan, within the Taliban to crack this
(34:37):
open so that the Taliban Afghanistan can return to the
international community.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Well, and certainly there are many Muslim countries where women
have a lot more rights than you in Afghanistan, I
think of you know, Turkey, even Saudi Arabia has been
expanding the rights of women recently. Are the lines are
all full these so we're going to try to get
through as many as we can. Here Karen is calling
from Boise, Idaho. Karen, go ahead with your question.
Speaker 8 (35:04):
Hello.
Speaker 13 (35:05):
So, yeah, this is a great honor. First of all
congrats and all that you're doing with the middle It's
going great. It's really picked up very well. I know
the private call, but Lisa has motivated me. I'm a
huge fan.
Speaker 7 (35:16):
Of Lisa's work.
Speaker 13 (35:17):
She's the number one favorite correspondent. I love your Saturday
Afternoon anchoring Shawls.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
I think.
Speaker 13 (35:25):
I'm a Pakistani American. I came here to study at
Dartmouth and then Colombia, and then for various reasons, ended
out in Boise, Idaho, which I love. By the way,
I just I love the Mountain West and with Canadian
roots all my families in Canada. My question is about
the Yeah, so my question is about the recent presents
(35:49):
in well, the bombing and Debbi followed by the day
after the bombing in Islamabad. Pakistan's blaming Afganastan, the Indians
are blaming policy. There was a recent small war between
Pakistan and India. Tens have been picking up between Palgkistan
and Afghanistan, and I'm just sort of wondering what do
you think about you know, what's going on and what
(36:12):
the future is there.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Thank you, Ker Karen.
Speaker 8 (36:15):
That's a really good question.
Speaker 6 (36:16):
In fact, Jeremy and I we're talking about at the
beginning about I said, I better check there's just been
some news because that is really important, and thank you
for bringing it up. But now the Pakistan Interior Minister
is blaming Afghanistan for the two suicide bombings in Islamabad,
and of course that has come but you would know
if I'm sure you have friends in Pakistan.
Speaker 8 (36:34):
A huge shock to Pakistan and.
Speaker 6 (36:36):
Many in Pakistan, Afghanistan India are wondering what comes next.
But this is really worrying that they had talks in
Istanbul between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Speaker 8 (36:44):
Both sides have blamed each other.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
As you know, Pakistan accuses Afghanistan the Taliban of giving
refuge to the Tariki Taliban Taliban the t TP, which
has been locked in war as you know, with the
with the government and someone in the armed forces for
a very long time. The Afghans deny that and no
side is backing down. Both sides are saying they have
(37:07):
a right to attack their neighbor Indian. And then there's
that age old rivalry between India and Pakistan that India
and Pakistan always see a shadow of their other war.
Whatever happens in Afghanistan, it is a very very dangerous
moment and it could escalate if wiser, cooler heads don't prevail,
but so far that the heads aren't cooling.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Jude is calling in from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Yeah, a
beautiful place. Go ahead with your question for.
Speaker 14 (37:38):
Lidy said yes, no, thanks so much for taking my call. Yes,
my question is about the recent BBC scale involved in
the Donald Trump's speech and if you think that this
was placed into the narrative of when Trump talked about
the fake news media, the fact that BBC spliced his
speech up to say something that he didn't really.
Speaker 6 (38:01):
Can I say, first of offers, and not to avoid
I'm gonna answer the question, but I was going to
say to Jeremy, I hope there's a caller from Louisiana
because my ancestry is Cajun. I'm an Acadian from Canada.
And if you go, and I'm sure in Baton Rouge
and Lafayette there's du set buildings do set houses. My family,
(38:22):
the Ducet family, is one of the original Acadian families,
and when the British expelled the Acadians in seventeen fifty five,
we went down to the thirteen colonies and to Louisiana.
That's why Cajun music, Cajun cooking. So I was hoping
my cousins from Louisiana would call today.
Speaker 8 (38:38):
I've got Baton rouge. Yeah, yeah, son.
Speaker 6 (38:43):
But any of your question with the BBC, this is
a very painful time for the BBC. I'm not an editor,
so I'm not in the managing board, but i'm as
senior correspondent for the BBC. What has been said tonight
is that the BBC has apologized and said we made
an error. There was an editing era. It should have been,
it should have been, it should not have happened where
(39:05):
they took one part of President Trump's speech from the
beginning of the speech and one part from the end
of the speech and instead of putting something in it,
you know, we talk about a flash or something or
indicating that these were happening at a different time, but
by putting them together they created a different impact. Now,
of course, the piece is not the only one to
have reported on President Trump's January sixth speech.
Speaker 8 (39:27):
He's accused by some people.
Speaker 6 (39:28):
Of having that having triggered the kind or at least
caused an atmosphere. President Trump, of course calls it a
perfect speech. He's now threatening to soon. In fact, he
started legal action against the BBC. So suffice it to
say that BBC says, okay, an error was made. We
accept that an error was made. Many are saying, you
(39:49):
should have dealt with that earlier. They took their time.
Now they've apologized to President Trump. Now it's in the
legal field, and those of us in the BBC who
are reporters are just saying, but let's use this opportunity
as a way to strengthen the BBC, to strengthen broadcaster.
Here we are speaking on this great program which is
(40:09):
part of the public of informing the public across the
United States. We need public we need public broadcasting, we
need independent broadcast. It's a fundamental pillar of democracy. With
independent broadcasting takes a hit, so too does our democratic society.
And many believe in Britain that there is still a
(40:31):
place for public broadcasting and the BBC is still trusted.
But we are now having a lot of introspection at
the BBC and there's a long tail. As with almost
every media organization the world over, we're accused of pro
pro Palestinian bias and also pro Israeli bias, and so
there have been some really challenging moments and mistakes have
(40:54):
been made by the BBC. Only God is perfect, as
we say, And because it's because the BBC's public and
belongs to the public, we come under far more scrutiny,
far more pressure than any other media organization in Britain.
It should be that because we belong to the people
of Britain who pay for it. But there's a huge,
(41:14):
huge conversation going on in Britain right now about the
future of the BBC public broadcasting and that is a
good thing.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
Well.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And it's interesting that this is about the editing of
a speech, because if you go onto social media right now,
nobody would have any qualms about making a cut or
even putting in an artificial intelligence created speech of Donald Trump.
But in the traditional media organizations like the BBC, like NPR,
like others, there are standards that have to be adhered
(41:43):
to and people expect that of them. Chris is calling
in from Fort Worth, Texas. Hi, Chris, we were just
there last week, but go ahead with your.
Speaker 13 (41:51):
Question, other guys, big fan of both of you, guys.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
I was calling to see if if you feel like
there are any stories or current events that are currently
happening that maybe aren't getting enough airtime that you think
that they deserve.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Great question, Chris, thank you.
Speaker 8 (42:08):
M m oh wow, that's really good. You got a
good audience.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
I like this, wrong gram.
Speaker 8 (42:15):
I might stay up in the middle of the night
in Britain two am to three am and the music
music is off the charts. Wow, keep me, keep me. Okay,
you go, guys.
Speaker 6 (42:26):
I mentioned earlier about Sudan, but Sudan is getting a
bit more. We don't talk about the rahingas from from
me and mar who are languishing and suffering, and in
camps and Indian and Bangladesh, we don't talk. There's lots
of places that, you know, South Sudan doesn't get up.
There's so many places that don't get I mean, their
(42:48):
world doesn't. There's a lot of news, and of course
domestic news and local news, and President Trump brings a
lot a lot of news. So I'm just trying to
think whether I could think. I think Sudan definitely deserves,
definitely deserves more. Afghanistan definitely deserves more. Partly it's a
problem again, we're back to what Jeremy and I, you know,
we talked about earlier that it's hard for journalists to
(43:10):
get into Sudan. It's hard for journalists to get into
Afghanistan as well. And even though the I mean, the
journalists on the ground, particularly in Gaza, have done a
job which can only be described as heroic, but it
also helps to strengthen local journalists. When international journalists come in,
they provide resources, they provide some security, and they shine
(43:34):
a bigger light on what is what is happening.
Speaker 8 (43:38):
In in many of these in many of these countries,
we work together.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Gregory is calling in from Chicago. Hi, Gregory, I go
ahead with your question.
Speaker 5 (43:48):
Reasoning Madame Dus said, I have the opportunity to see
former Polish President Les Valenza on his international speaking to
speak here in Chicago and October.
Speaker 6 (44:00):
Oh wow, and.
Speaker 8 (44:02):
It brings us in history, isn't it? What a spending
time that was?
Speaker 9 (44:08):
It was?
Speaker 5 (44:09):
And I attended the European Newnglear Disarmament Conference in March
of nineteen eighty three, which subsequently led to Gorba, Chavi
and Reagan bringing down the Cold Iron the Iron Wall
and ending the Cold War. And the understanding was Natal
would not expand one inch east of East Germany and
let Valenco put out a clearing call, which I think
(44:32):
was his main message, because this is only international speaking tour.
He's up in age eighty one and a wonderful man,
and it was it was great to everyone greeted him
afterwards and I'll never forget that. And he said that
we're moving from the age. You know, we move from
the age of empires and kings to nation states the
last five hundred years, but we really need to go
(44:54):
to continental and then ultimately global management. And the European
Union with twenty eight countries that used to fight each
other for centuries, is the example of that. But he
still vilified Russia as being, you know, a gangster county
and they've never known democracy, and so I just wanted
to see if you could say something at least from
the Russian perspective about NATO expansion, as at least part
(45:17):
of the understanding of why they went in to get
that buffer from Euro's nuclear missiles.
Speaker 7 (45:21):
In the future.
Speaker 6 (45:22):
Maybe thank you, thank you, Greg, Yeah, thank you very
much for bringing us back. It's you know, some of
us like to take refuge in history, but those are
absolutely Madni. Those were defining times which changed the shape
of the world changed, the shape of superpower politics. And
there back to that moment where we dared to believe.
You had friends Fukuyami talking about the end of history,
(45:42):
that the old age, old rivalry, a dangerous rivalry between
the Soviet Empire and the American Empire, would end for
the good of all peoples. And there was there was
a very ecstatic moment. And now, of course we live
in a very different age. There's been a lot of
discussion about what was actually said in that speech and
whether there was a promise not to move, as you
(46:04):
put it into one inch. President Putin talks about it
endlessly that promises were broken, that he felt threatened by it.
Speaker 8 (46:14):
Others would say, including.
Speaker 6 (46:15):
Countries like Finland and Sweden who recently joined the NATO
Military Alliance even though for decades they had been remained neutral,
is that it doesn't really have that. The countries of
the former Soviet Union were not pushed by NATO or
pulled by NATO into its embrace. They wanted to join NATO,
they wanted to become part of the international community. This
(46:38):
was not forced conscription to join the world's biggest military alliance.
These countries were embracing their new democracy. They were out
from under the Soviet yoke, and they chose to look
west and not east. I have to say I was
in Kiev during those days of huge foreboding when President
Putin did his history lesson to talking about how Ukraine
(47:01):
was a mistake, the Bolshevis made a mistake and giving
parts of Ukraine parts of Russia away, that there was
no it was a fiction that Ukraine belonged in Russia.
And he keeps saying that, he keeps presenting the maps
to President Trump, that Ukraine doesn't have a right to exist,
and being in Ukraine at that time, I have to
say that Ukrainians being told that they did not have
(47:25):
a right to exist made Ukrainians even more Ukrainian. And
I don't think you can President Putin doesn't have the
right in our day and age. Although we had President
Trump wanting to take parts of Greenland, wanting to take
parts of Canada, right wanting today.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Parts hasn't talked about that in a while, Right, Yeah,
they sort of stopped stopped on that one. I know
I'm going to regret this, Tolliver, but I'm going to
go to one more quick call because it's a fun one. Helena,
You've got to be very fast in Houston, Texas. Helena
go ahead for Lisa.
Speaker 15 (47:53):
Said, okay, very quickly. One, I guess if I'm the
last caller, let's ended on a lighthearted note. Have you
heard the news about the Norwegian princess and the shaman marrying?
I wanted an update on that? And two, if there's
any other lighthearted news that we could maybe take a
deep breath on and in the night with ye.
Speaker 8 (48:14):
Princess? Do I have I missed that?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
What was what was the I missed that too, So yeah,
I think there was something.
Speaker 15 (48:19):
American American shaman.
Speaker 6 (48:22):
Oh yes, I know about that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
not that I'm being trivial. I know about that one.
Speaker 8 (48:26):
And I know about Justin Trudeau is dating Katie Perry.
Speaker 6 (48:29):
And I know the Blue Jays lost to the Dodgers,
but we fought a really good uh so those are
the kind of stories.
Speaker 8 (48:36):
So in Toronto, I was on.
Speaker 6 (48:37):
Blue Jay's way and I said, yes we go, blue
Jays win. So we do we all need lightness in
our life?
Speaker 3 (48:43):
We do?
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Well, thank you for ending us on on that note.
BBC Chief International Correspondent, least do set. Her new book
is called The Finest Hotelling Couple. Thank you so much
for joining us. It's been great having you here.
Speaker 8 (48:54):
I've loved being on.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Thank you, and next week we'll be right back here
with the host of the Last and podcast, which explores
some of the biggest concerns about the future of AI.
We want to know if you are excited by AI
or if you fear that it will destroy us All Tolliver.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
Head over to listen to the Middle dot com to
join the conversation, and subscribe to The Middle wherever you
get your podcasts so you don't miss a single episode.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and Urbana Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmisdas, John Barth, Anicadesslar, and
Brandon Condritz. Our technical director this week, Jason Croft. Thanks
to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and the
hundreds of public radio stations making it possible for people
across the country to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy
(49:37):
Hobson and I will talk to you next week.
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
the show and from you. Thanks for making a donation
at listen Toothmiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to the Middle of Jeremy Hobson along with our
house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver there are certain guests that
we have to try really hard to book in advance.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Yeah, Neil Degrest Tyson is not an easy booking man.
And his rider it's a million miles long.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
It's great, he's a writer. Neither is Andrew Yang, Neither
is Katie Kirk or our guest this hour, who is
one of the world's most recognized and accomplished foreign correspondents,
but also someone who is usually not in a time
zone that works for our live show. That would be
Lee's do Set, the chief international correspondent for the BBC,
and we are so excited to have her with us
this hour while she's in North America, and we're going
(00:49):
to be talking about her new book about Afghanistan, but
also taking your calls on some of the big global
issues in the news. So get your questions ready at
eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four fours
six four three three five three. We'll get to that
just a moment. But first, what a show last week
when we asked you if you're afraid that AI will
take your job? So many great calls during the show,
(01:10):
and here are some of the voicemails that came in.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
I am Austin, I'm a locksmith, and UIs Texas and
I am not worried about.
Speaker 5 (01:18):
AI taking my job. Potentially it could help in some ways.
I think a lot of blue collar work is probably
going to be pretty safe.
Speaker 6 (01:28):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
My name is Tuesday and I'm from Salt Lake City, Utah.
I'm not worried that AI has replaced my job. It
already has. So it's frustrating that I got a creative
writing degree and then chat GPT came out a year later,
and so it has already replaced me in a lot
of ways.
Speaker 7 (01:47):
This is Daniel from Denver, Colorado. I am currently a
maintenance manager. Currently I am not concerned about with him
my job to AI. I have asked some questions about
how to trouble shoot the machinery, and a lot of
the answers that I get is how you try plugging
it in? And so it's at this point not smart enough, not.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Smart enough yet. Thanks to everyone who called in. As always,
you can hear that whole show by subscribing to the
Middle wherever you get your podcasts at toliver. Before I
bring in our guest, just remind people how they can
reach us with their questions.
Speaker 3 (02:19):
Yeah, you can call us at eight four four four
Middle that's eight four four four six four three three
five three, or you can write to us at Listen
to the Middle dot com or comment on our live
stream on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
Well, without further ado, it is my pleasure to welcome
Lese do Set, the BBC's chief international correspondent to the Middle.
Speaker 6 (02:34):
Least welcome, Welcome, cheermy I have to say, just listening
to that, are we worried that AA is going to
take our jobs?
Speaker 8 (02:42):
Me and you talking?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
Actually yes, journalists are like high on the list here.
I think we're in big, big trouble.
Speaker 8 (02:48):
But this marked harge.
Speaker 6 (02:50):
Here we are on the program the Middle, and we're
at the in the heart of where it's happening across
the Canada US board or me and you talking together.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Way and wait till you hear are callers because it's
really it is a lot of fun. But you've got
a new book out. It's called the finest hotel in Kable,
and I want to start there because Afghanistan is, you know,
as you know, is America's longest war. You've been reporting
from Afghanistan for decades, starting in the eighties, and you
write your book through the lens of a luxury hotel
(03:19):
in Kabble, which you've stayed in many, many times. What
can you learn about the recent history of the country
through a hotel.
Speaker 8 (03:29):
Good.
Speaker 6 (03:29):
Thank you very much, Jeremy. It's great to be on
your programs. We've tried a long time to do this
and it's very kind of you to mention my new book.
And I think I have to underline and I think
this is something that both you and I have to
deal with, is that people are getting tired of depressing news,
glum news, grim news, things going wrong.
Speaker 8 (03:50):
And in our business we.
Speaker 6 (03:52):
Have something called news avoidance. And I thought people can't
avoid the news because those wars far away, those conflicts,
including Afghanistan. Mentioned that Afghanistan was America's longest war. American
recent American history, in fact, for decades, has been threaded
through Afghanistan. So I wanted to explore a different kind
(04:12):
of storytelling, to use the power of literature of some
of the conventions of fiction writing to write a true story,
a non fiction story, and you know we sometimes use
this expression the story of the story.
Speaker 8 (04:26):
I needed a prism, a conceit.
Speaker 6 (04:28):
Not just to give out just wadges of information about Afghanistan.
Speaker 8 (04:31):
No one's going to want to read that.
Speaker 6 (04:33):
I wanted to tell a story of history through the
lives of people. And it was this first luxury hotel,
the first five star international hotel in Kobble, which was
built when Afghanistan was a kingdom, and which saw so
much of Afghan history decade after decade, over fifty years,
(04:54):
through every possible political system the world has tried that
went through this whole hotel. History literally lives within its walls.
And of course for me, it was my first Afghan home.
Speaker 8 (05:06):
I went to.
Speaker 6 (05:07):
I stayed in the hotel for nearly a year to
cover what was really the biggest story of that time,
the Soviet troop withdrawal from Afghanistan. The hotel became my home,
and the people running the hotel became my friends and
they are to this day.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
And in that period of time, this was in the
eighties that you were there for the first time, what
would you say, is the golden era of Afghanistan in
those last forty or so years.
Speaker 8 (05:31):
Ah, interesting that word golden.
Speaker 6 (05:34):
It's well, it's how Afghanis describe those first years when
Afghanistan was still a kingdom. It wasn't perfect by any measure,
but it was the time before war. So they looked
back at that period with great with great longing, and
the hotel was very much a part of that time.
(05:54):
Afghanistan was run by a mild mannered, French educated king,
zayre Shah, trying to balance Afghanistan's relationship with the West
and the east, between the United States and the Soviet
Union at the time of a very very intense Cold
War as we called it. In building this first five
star hotel was a symbol of his efforts to modernize Afghanistan,
(06:19):
to open it up to the world.
Speaker 8 (06:21):
Of course, then it was a bubble.
Speaker 6 (06:22):
It was geographically on a pine covered hill on the
edge of the city, above the city's cares. It was
an ex luxurious hotel which was only for the fortunate
in life or those who had a fortune, the royals,
the wealthy tourists, the diplomats, the privileged merchants. But it
(06:43):
was and It was a time when there was bikinis
by the swimming pool, cocktails on the roof.
Speaker 8 (06:48):
Even Americans who were there.
Speaker 6 (06:49):
At the time said, Lee's I never tastedes cargo in
the United States or ober Jin. Thomas Kutier is one
of the world's leading experts on Afghanist lives in Old Omaha,
son of a baker, and he was there as a
Peace Corps volunteer and then went on to stay.
Speaker 8 (07:06):
And he said, Leeds, we never had scargo. I never
tasted oberjein in Omaha.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
It really was then for a certain rarefied for part
of life.
Speaker 8 (07:17):
It was described as the Paris of Asia.
Speaker 2 (07:21):
Well, and today, I mean you were there. Let's go
to twenty twenty one, because you were there at this
key moment when the US had to withdraw when the
Taliban took over the country and they evacuated tens of
thousands of people from Afghanistan in a very short period
of time. But then there was the suicide bombing at
the airport, one hundred and eighty people killed, thirteen American troops.
(07:44):
President Biden got a lot of criticism for how that
withdraw was handled. President Trump has said it was a
humiliation for the United States. How do you see it
that withdrawal.
Speaker 6 (07:55):
Everyone has to share the blame for that. President Trump's
first administration, which decided that it was time to talk
to the Taliban, even though previous governments had said, We're
not going to talk directly to the Taliban until the
Taliban also agree to talk to the Afghan government to
move towards to end the war, move towards a representative government.
(08:17):
President Trump had promised that he would bring all the
American soldiers home.
Speaker 8 (08:22):
That obviously went.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
Down well in America. Then when President Biden took over,
he decided to continue with that policy. And President Biden,
remember was someone who had never approved of sending troops
to Afghanistan during president when he was vice president during
Obama's time, four American presidents, Republican and Democrat, had tried
(08:46):
to end this long war, which, as you say, began
became America's longest war. But Jeremy, what Afghan said at
the time and say to this day, Look, we knew
that it was time for the troops to leave it
it had been twenty years, but what we disagreed with
was the way that they left. You may remember at
that time there was all this discussion that the United
(09:06):
States wanted to avoid a Saigon situation, the disastrous would
pull out from Vietnam, and you got Saigon in multiplied
by one hundred, those wide those aircrafts taking off from
Koble Airport, Afghan's clinging to the underbelly of the plane,
a rush of panic towards towards the towards the aircraft.
Speaker 8 (09:30):
It was a debacle and you can only call it.
Call it that. So it ended very very badly, and
we see the result today.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
With well and today you know, after all of that,
how important do you think Afghanistan is to the United States.
This was, of course the place where the nine to
eleven attacks were planned, where Bin Laden was.
Speaker 6 (09:54):
There was those who follow Afghanistan closely, and I'm sure
many of your your listeners do and your viewers. And
there's still a lot of pain out there, pain in America,
pain in Canada, where I am pain in all pain
mostly about about afghan among Afghans and all the other
countries who contributed troops, who sent their diplomats, who spent
(10:16):
their eight dollars, who lost lost lives, and only to
see the Taliban return again when after the terrible attacks
of September eleventh in the United States blamed on the
al Qaeda leader Osama had bin Laden. First of all,
it was about finding Osama bin Laden, bringing down the Taliban.
Speaker 8 (10:36):
And then the cold posts seemed to keep shifting.
Speaker 6 (10:40):
Was America there just for to protect America's security, which
is of course a very important goal. Was it about
protecting the women and girls of Afghanistan?
Speaker 8 (10:50):
Was it about nation building?
Speaker 6 (10:52):
And as the more and more troops went, more and
more AID dollars, had more and more ambitions.
Speaker 8 (10:57):
They call it.
Speaker 6 (10:58):
Mission creep, to the point that for the Americans, for
the British and others they said, well, why are we
in Afghanistan? We're digging in deeper and deeper and deeper,
and all the while the Tuliban started coming back.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Well, stand by, I want to tell our listeners again
you can reach us with your questions about Afghanistan, or
the US role in the world, or other key hotspots.
For Liz who said at eight four four four Middle
that's eight four four four six four three three five
three Tolliver. As we said, Leez was in Afghanistan for
the withdrawal of the troops back in twenty twenty one.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Yeah, one of the most dramatic moments here she is
reporting for the BBC. Back then, take a listen.
Speaker 6 (11:32):
There is a crush of people desperate to get in
to try and get on a flight to anywhere in
the world. Even though this is such a painful time.
So many of the people we met broke down in
tears that this has happened. Also suddenly, also shockingly that
they don't want to leave. Their lives are here, but
(11:53):
they feel that if they ever had the idea, either
for themselves or for their children to leave, that this
is the moment, and that when that window shuts, it
may shut forever for them.
Speaker 2 (12:07):
What a moment. That was such an historic moment. We'll
be right back with your calls for Lee's du set
coming up on the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm
Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning. In the Middle is
a national call in show or focused on elevating voices
from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically, or maybe you
just want to meet in the middle. This hour, we
(12:29):
are taking your questions on global issues with the BBC's
chief International correspondent, Lee's do set. That is such an
open ended thing. You can ask les whatever you want
about world news. Tolliver, what is the number again to
call in?
Speaker 3 (12:42):
It's eight four four for Middle that's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 2 (12:50):
And before we get to the phones, Lee's after all
these years, do you still get scared worried for your
safety when you go to these dangerous places?
Speaker 6 (13:03):
I think now we understand a lot more about safety
and security, and so for not just for the BBC,
but for I see colleagues from national public radio broadcasters
of the world over, media the world over. We prepare
for the risks. We think about the risks beforehand. We're
all trained to how to work in high risk environments,
so you're already thinking before you go about what the
(13:25):
risks are out there, be it Ukraine or in Sudan
or in Afghanistan, wherever you go. And then you have
to decide what is the risk worth taking and what
to do if something terrible happens. And one of the
gifts of being a television and radio broadcaster is that
we go in a team. And also if I'm in Afghanistan,
(13:45):
I work with an Afghan. In Syria, I work with
the Syrian.
Speaker 8 (13:47):
In Sudan, I.
Speaker 6 (13:48):
Work with someone who's Sudanese. And that gives you an
extra level of protection because no matter how long we
spend in a country, we will never know about that
country as much as someone from that country. So we
build in the layers, and that gives me that level
of confidence. And finally, I would say for many of
these places, when I think about going to Cobble or
(14:10):
Cartoon or Aman or Jerusalem or many of these places,
I've spent so much time in them already that I
don't think of it as a story. I think, oh,
I'm going to see this person. I know, oh, I'll
be able to go back with this place. And that
also gives me a level of confidence because I've been
there and I have a little bit. I've lived through
at least a bit of the history. As I prepare
(14:31):
to go back to a new time of history.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
Let's get to the funds. Rachel is calling in from Phoenix, Arizona. Rachel,
go ahead with your question for Liz du set.
Speaker 4 (14:43):
Hi.
Speaker 9 (14:45):
I just want to know Lee's first all big fan.
But since you've been all over the world and talked
to so many different kinds of people. Do you believe
that the perception of Americans has changed under the current administration?
Speaker 8 (14:57):
Great question, reception of America?
Speaker 6 (15:01):
Well, it depends great to get a call from Arizona.
I was at the University of Arizona last year and
loved it, loved the cactide. So thank you very much
and thank you for following the BBC. I think it has,
but I don't think it's It's not black and white.
There are parts of the world who see President Donald
(15:21):
Trump as a great president. I was in Jerusalem when
he came to Jerusalem to sign the deal which brought
about the first the ceasefire in the first phase of
what's called his twenty point Please Pan. Then he went
on to Charmel shake. There's great skepticism about whether whether
this will quickly moved. It's certainly not peace now, but
(15:42):
at least he brought some of the fighting to an end,
helped to bring the twenty Israeli hostages home, and the
remains of the others are coming. So he was fated
there as someone who can finally can finally bring about
some of the some of the some of the results
that people have been hoping for. But I'm talking to
you from Canada, and of course, in Canada, we are
(16:06):
very very unhappy with a president who has threatened us
with annexing the country, has imposed swinging tariffs which are
having an increasingly negative effect and very worrying effect on
the Canadian economy. It has helped Canadians to rally around
the flag. So I think there's a mixed picture across
(16:26):
the world, and it will all depend not just what
President Trump says, but what he does.
Speaker 2 (16:32):
A lot of the places in the United States that
rely on Canadian tourists have been seeing big drops in
people coming in over the last many months for exactly
that reason. Let's go to Fury, who is calling in
from Dallas, Texas. Fury, go ahead with your question for
list two.
Speaker 10 (16:48):
Said, I want to ask your guest if she heard
this version. Some of the earlier American generals had a
statement that Avlanissan was never conquered by the British and
Jenghis Khan and the Russians, and they were going to
conquer it. I don't know if she's ever heard that
or not.
Speaker 7 (17:06):
I have.
Speaker 10 (17:07):
And the second comment I had from one of my
friends at CIA was that the reason we are not
going to win this war is but the guy who
makes a dollar a day and has bent to kill
the invaders, and the invaders will cost us ten thousand
dollars a day. Eventually, I'm going to run out of the money.
So I just want to comment, if she's heard of
(17:29):
these two comments our years in Afghanistan.
Speaker 6 (17:32):
Okay, thank you, thank you so much, and thank you
for following Afghanistan so closely. Afghans don't want to be conquered.
They're not the only people who would say that. Canadians
don't want to be conquered either. Americans don't want to
be a conquer but Afghans, certainly because of their they've
been cursed by their geography, being landlocked in a previous century,
(17:53):
the Russians and the British Imperial Russian perid fighting over
Afghanistan to reach, as they say, the warm waters of
the Indian Ocean. You mentioned some of the other invaders.
They're very proud, a very proud, a very proud people.
And then when you get back to after the US
led invasion of Afghanistan, which toppled the Taliban, I wouldn't
(18:13):
put it in the way that was put with a
one dollar versus the ten thousand dollars. But what I
would say is that Afghanistan remains. For all that's been lost,
and there's been a lot of loss, that Afghans haven't
lost their deeply ingrained sense of hospitality.
Speaker 8 (18:30):
And had there not been the air raids and.
Speaker 6 (18:35):
Raids on the ground, the Special Forces raids into Afghan villages,
the bombing of villages to try to destroy the Taliban
infrastructure to kill the Taliban, which also killed civilians destroyed villages, then.
Speaker 8 (18:47):
Afghans would have been more welcoming.
Speaker 6 (18:49):
They welcomed the Americans and the international community with open arms.
Afghans dared to believe this would be the beginning of peace,
only to find people being rounded up and sent to
go Ontonamo Bay. I know that at the time America
was angry. They wanted to find the people that they
thought were responsible for the September eleventh attacks, But a
lot of people who were not responsible did end up
(19:11):
in Guantanamo Bay, and a lot of people in their
villagers lived through violence which led them to actually turn
away from the people that they thought they could have
welcomed with open arms. So I think it's more how
you behave on the ground. And I should say that
the Americans didn't. Americans brought a lot of aid. They
did bring some development. It wasn't just a one way street.
But there was bad mixed with the good, and that
(19:33):
did turn the minds of some Afghans and did contribute
then to the rise of the Taliban and their return
to power.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well, speaking of welcoming people with open arms, some two
hundred thousand Afghans resettled in the United States after the war,
and now the Trump administration has removed the temporary protected
status for many of them, so they have to leave again.
What do you make of that? Where are they going
to go?
Speaker 6 (20:01):
Can you imagine being in the shoes of Afghans who
finally reach America, the land of the Free and the
home of the brave, including those who took on the
very risky jobs of translating for American troops.
Speaker 8 (20:15):
Where the eyes and ears of the.
Speaker 6 (20:16):
Americans on the ground, who work for American aid agencies,
who feel their lives are threatened by staying in Afghanistan,
and some of them took very dangerous journeys to reach
the United States, and then finally they arrive on American soil,
they breathe a sigh of relief and are now being
told that the special state is for Afghans because of
this relationship where Americans and Afghans work together, that that's
(20:40):
being lifted. I mean, it's a desperately, desperately anxious time,
a very very fearful time for so many. Where are
they going to go. They don't want to go back
to Afghanistan. They don't want to go to a country
where they don't feel safe. Many of them have family
in the United States. And I don't need to tell
you that that's brought part of a much more order
picture of immigration in the United States. And I would
(21:03):
emphasize that is a big issue immigration in the United States.
It's a big issue in Britain, where I live. It's
even an issue in Canada, where this is an economy
built on immigration. But that particular measure is causing not
just angst and anger and fear among Afghans, but also
among US veterans who work so closely other groups helping
(21:24):
the Afghans.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
A reminder to our listeners that were taking questions on
all things, not just Afghanistan, but Tolliver maybe there's a
question that's come in at Listen to the Middle dot Com.
Speaker 3 (21:35):
Yeah, well, okay, so a lot of people are asking
about what a realistic into the one in Ukraine looks like.
So maybe we can touch on that at some point.
And then Joanna Minneapolis specifically says, please talk about the
ban on international correspondence in Gaza. How is that allowed
to proceed for years?
Speaker 8 (21:49):
M Yes, which one did you like to tack on?
Speaker 11 (21:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (21:54):
Why don't you start with Gaza briefly? And then I
want to I do want to ask you about Ukraine.
Speaker 6 (22:00):
Well after the on Occlub of the thirteenth, when President
Trump came to the Middle East, to Jerusalem and to
Charmlshak in Egypt, that marked the start of the first
phase of this at the start of the ceasefire. It's fragile,
but it's not perfect. There is still Israeli bombing, there's
(22:20):
still fighting, but it's much better than it was before.
And then there was a suggestion, there was a lot
of discussion in Israel that now would be the time
to at long last allow journalists to go independently into
Gaza to see the war, to see the result of
this grievous war, the worst that the Middle East has
seen for the first time all that has been allowed
(22:43):
so far. And one of my colleagues, Lucy Williams, in
one of our Middle East correspondents, did go in with
the Israeli army. But they're only allowed to go into
those areas still controlled by Israel. They're beyond what you
I'm sure your viewers listeners have heard a yellow line.
Israel still controls fifty three percent of the Gaza strips,
(23:03):
so they're not allowed to go into the areas where
Palestinians are. They're not allowed to talk to Palestinians.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
So it's a very very own safety. That's not just
about their own safety, that's Israel doesn't want them. What
doesn't want the journalists to be talking to ordinary Palestinians.
Speaker 6 (23:20):
Well, I mean, we have to ask as journalists if
the Israelis are preventing journalists from going in. They say
there are security reasons, but the war has more or
less largely stopped, so why not let journalists into Gaza.
So the prevailing view is that there must be something
(23:41):
to hide. Of course, we have seen what has been
the scenes on the ground, the absolutely apocalyptic scenes. It
is absolutely astonishing to see how much of Gaza now
lies in ruin, how Gazins are forced to huge displacement,
some as many as fifteen times living intents. The infrastructure.
(24:03):
The United Nations sens up to ninety percent of the
infrastructure of Gaza is destroyed. I mean, I have asked
any how could any of us live in those kinds
of conditions.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
But you're saying this ceasefire is holding for now, but fragile,
but very fragile there. What about the what would you
call it a stalemate right now with Ukraine? With what's
happening in Ukraine.
Speaker 8 (24:23):
Yes, it's a war of attrition.
Speaker 6 (24:24):
It's a grinding war with growing losses on both sides.
The Russians are making advances. They are really closing in
on a really important juncture called pro cross comes to
those who follow closely will have heard that they've said
they've taken percrofts of That is a real junction in
(24:45):
terms of symbolically but also in terms of transportation links,
supply lines. And the estimate now is that Russian forces
control about nineteen percent of Ukrainian territory. Of course, we
have President Trump who came to powers saying well, in
the election campaign he boasted he could end the war
in a day. Then he came to power and he said, well,
(25:07):
it'll take one hundred days. And he goes back and forth.
He said, most recently during the visit of Victor Orbon
of Hungary, we want the war to end in the
near future. Before that, he said, oh, they still have
to keep fighting.
Speaker 8 (25:19):
They want to keep fighting. It's a terrible it's a
terrible war.
Speaker 6 (25:24):
For the Russian soldiers who are dying in huge numbers,
for the Ukrainian troops who are exhausted but are still
defiant that they're not going to give up their country
to Russian occupation. And the people of Ukraine who dazzled
inspired the world when they stood up. I was in
Kieva at that time to Russia's full scale invasion of Ukraine.
Speaker 8 (25:45):
Unbelievable.
Speaker 6 (25:46):
We thought that this would happen in our time. And
they fought back. They pushed Russian forces back on the
outskirts of Giv in some other places.
Speaker 8 (25:56):
But now they just haven't been able to match.
Speaker 6 (25:59):
The Russian soldier by soldier, and Russia is now on
an industrial on a war footing. It has a war
war economy, and the other interesting jeremy about it is
that it's this reality of the war on the ground
that some parts of the war being fought in the
trenches like the first of the Second World War, and
the other part of the war is being fought in
the skies with these most modern of drones that are
(26:23):
causing so much suffering. They're getting into Russian territory as well.
But for the lives of Ukrainians, hitting the energy infrastructure,
hitting residential areas, it's again, it's really really unimaginable that
this should be happening out of time. The rules of
war are being shattered on an industrial scale.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
And so close to so many places in Europe that
so many, probably of our listeners visit, and it's just
amazing that it's happening right there. Let's sneak in another
call before we have to take a quick break. Martha
is calling from Oak Park, Illinois. Martha, your question for
Lez two set.
Speaker 5 (27:01):
Hi.
Speaker 12 (27:02):
Yes, thanks for taking my call. I was wondering about
in Sudan and I've been reading that it's being described
as the worst humanitarian crisis that's ongoing right now. Do
you agree with that? But also what's been the impact
of kind of the cutbacks in USAID in that situation,
and what might be the solutions without that.
Speaker 6 (27:26):
Great question marko Oh, thank you so much, and thank
you very much for asking about the dismantling of usai D.
You know, I've said to people that it was for
the rest of the world who had come to appreciate
American generosity. Had millions of the world over we're living
with the benefits of American generosity. And when the AI
(27:50):
usa ID was dismantled, it was it didn't seem that
this caused at least in America, too much was happening,
and that there wasn't enough protests protests about it because
so much was also happening.
Speaker 2 (28:01):
At that time, going yeah, but.
Speaker 8 (28:04):
It's had a devastating effect.
Speaker 6 (28:05):
And I'm sure because you sound like someone and thank
you very much for being someone who follows the news
closely that you know, despite the denials, that millions are
dying because they don't have access to life saving drugs
HIV patients.
Speaker 8 (28:19):
In Afghanistan.
Speaker 6 (28:20):
It's had a huge, colossal effect that hospitals have closed down, the.
Speaker 8 (28:26):
Hunger is is growing.
Speaker 6 (28:28):
Women's education that was being funded through USAID, The secret
schools and internet learning. They that's also closed down, and yes,
in Sudan as well, which it also benefited from. And
of course the world thanks the United States for being
so generous. But I suppose that is the you know,
was seen as part of it, and so one administration
(28:50):
after and I saw it as part of America's.
Speaker 8 (28:52):
Role in the world, being a compass for the world.
I'm so glad you asked about Sudan.
Speaker 6 (28:59):
And I don't know, Jeremy, how often people ask about
Sudan on your program. It is the forgotten war. Of course, Gaza, Ukraine,
these are major conflicts of our time that draw in
so many countries far and wide. But Sudan is an
atrocious war in every way. I'm it's another place where
it's been very, very hard for journalists.
Speaker 8 (29:20):
To get in.
Speaker 6 (29:20):
I managed my last trip was it was a year ago.
I went with the UN with the first visit of
the UN Humanitarian Chief, Tom Fletcher, and he said, I'm
going to Sudan to make the point that Sudan needs help.
Speaker 2 (29:35):
Yeah, it's interesting. I think about you as somebody who
might be happy if they had a flight from Khartoon
to keif it would make it easier for you to
get back in front having to go back to London. Yes,
our guests, at least you said, has also been to Iran,
which is very difficult for journalists to visit.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
That's right. Listen to this report from the capital city
of Tehran, just after a tentative ceasefire was reached following
a twelve big conflict between Iran and Israel earlier this year.
Speaker 6 (30:04):
Day two of the ceasefire, and despite its shaky start,
it seems to be holding and traffic is starting to
return to the streets of Tehran. The city is starting
to look like itself, but so many of the cafes,
the shops, the government of offices are still shut. So
many residents fled this city once Israeli attack started, and
(30:25):
they seem to be waiting until the end of the
Iranian weekend, which starts tomorrow to see whether it truly holds.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Tehran a city I would love to visit some day.
Speaker 3 (30:37):
Yeah, this is a book I love called Persepolis, written
about Till Yeah writes checking out graphic novel. I've never
heard of it, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Tlliver's book book suggests looking next. If you haven't signed
up by the way for the Middle newsletter. Please do
that and listen to the Middle dot com. You get
Tlliver's tidbits every week. It's not to be missed. We'll
be right back with more of your calls on the Middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. In this hour,
we're taking your calls about anything happening in the world
(31:05):
for the BBC's chief international correspondent, lids to Set. Her
new book is called The Finest Hotel in Kabble. You
can reach us at eight four four four Middle that
is eight four four four six four three three five three,
or you can write to us at listen to the
Middle dot com. Let's go right back to the phones
and Victor, who is calling from Los Angeles. Victor, go
ahead with your question for Lis du Set.
Speaker 11 (31:27):
Yes Hi. Great discussion and good to hear how you've
traveled the world. One thing that hasn't come up, and
it bothers them to me, when the fall of Afghanistan
occurred was the plight of women in that country and
the loss of their civil rights. And it's not being
talked about a lot, and I'm just wondering how things going.
Are things getting better for women to be able to
(31:49):
be free and read and go to school, or are
they getting worse?
Speaker 2 (31:53):
Thank you great question, Victor.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
Thank you.
Speaker 6 (31:55):
Li's Doo said, bless you Victor for asking about God,
because what I hear so often from Afghans they say
everyone's forgotten us, nobody cares about us anymore. But I
think you would agree with me, Victor, and I'm sure
everyone who listens to this program. How can we accept
that we live in a world where there's a country
which doesn't allow girls to go to school beyond grade six,
(32:18):
doesn't allow women to go to university, bans women from
many of.
Speaker 8 (32:23):
The jobs women do still work. If you go to Kobble,
the women.
Speaker 6 (32:26):
Are working at the international airport, They are working in
some private companies as long as they're segregated with the men.
But you know, Victor, when the Taliban were engaged in
talks with the Americans about the withdrawal of the last
American forces, about what the Americans said had to also
be a move towards discussion about power sharing in Kobble,
(32:47):
they are across Afghanistan. Taliban leaders told US foreign correspondence,
but they told Afghan women negotiators that they wouldn't rule
the way that they did the first time round. They
understood that they couldn't be as so harsh, that girls
would be educated, women would work, women could hold many positions.
But week on week it becomes even worse, so much
(33:07):
so that Afghans say now that it's even worse than
it was.
Speaker 8 (33:11):
In the nineties.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
The Taliban, the top leadership of the Taliban, have promulgated
edicts of more than seventy most of them having to
do with more and more restrictions on the lives of
women and girls. But I will say that on my
last trip, and I've been trying to since Antigativisa two
years ago, i met a founding member of the Taliban
who I've known for many years, and he said to me,
(33:35):
he said, ninety five percent of the Taliban, ninety five
percent don't agree with the harshest of these edicts. Yes,
we're a conservative country, Yes we're Muslim, and we have
our traditions and values, but Islam gives girls the right
to be educated, women to pursue their potential, to which,
of course, when I put that on social media, Afghan said, well,
(33:56):
why aren't you doing something about it? But the Taliban
value more than anything else their unity. They don't want
to splinter, they want to maintain control. And so those
Taliban leaders who've spoken out, some of them have had
to leave because they've called so publicly for girls to
be educated.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
And the way it.
Speaker 6 (34:14):
Described was described to me recently by an Afghan friend
who keeps a very close eye. He said that it's
like this big pressure is building up against this wall
of this ultra conservative leaders who are promulgating these edicts.
The wall is very thick and there's little cracks, but
there's not enough of a push, and we'll have to
come from within Afghanistan, within the Taliban to crack this
(34:37):
open so that the Taliban Afghanistan can return to the
international community.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Well, and certainly there are many Muslim countries where women
have a lot more rights than you in Afghanistan, I
think of you know, Turkey, even Saudi Arabia has been
expanding the rights of women recently. Are the lines are
all full these so we're going to try to get
through as many as we can. Here Karen is calling
from Boise, Idaho. Karen, go ahead with your question.
Speaker 8 (35:04):
Hello.
Speaker 13 (35:05):
So, yeah, this is a great honor. First of all
congrats and all that you're doing with the middle It's
going great. It's really picked up very well. I know
the private call, but Lisa has motivated me. I'm a
huge fan.
Speaker 7 (35:16):
Of Lisa's work.
Speaker 13 (35:17):
She's the number one favorite correspondent. I love your Saturday
Afternoon anchoring Shawls.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
I think.
Speaker 13 (35:25):
I'm a Pakistani American. I came here to study at
Dartmouth and then Colombia, and then for various reasons, ended
out in Boise, Idaho, which I love. By the way,
I just I love the Mountain West and with Canadian
roots all my families in Canada. My question is about
the Yeah, so my question is about the recent presents
(35:49):
in well, the bombing and Debbi followed by the day
after the bombing in Islamabad. Pakistan's blaming Afganastan, the Indians
are blaming policy. There was a recent small war between
Pakistan and India. Tens have been picking up between Palgkistan
and Afghanistan, and I'm just sort of wondering what do
you think about you know, what's going on and what
(36:12):
the future is there.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Thank you, Ker Karen.
Speaker 8 (36:15):
That's a really good question.
Speaker 6 (36:16):
In fact, Jeremy and I we're talking about at the
beginning about I said, I better check there's just been
some news because that is really important, and thank you
for bringing it up. But now the Pakistan Interior Minister
is blaming Afghanistan for the two suicide bombings in Islamabad,
and of course that has come but you would know
if I'm sure you have friends in Pakistan.
Speaker 8 (36:34):
A huge shock to Pakistan and.
Speaker 6 (36:36):
Many in Pakistan, Afghanistan India are wondering what comes next.
But this is really worrying that they had talks in
Istanbul between Pakistan and Afghanistan.
Speaker 8 (36:44):
Both sides have blamed each other.
Speaker 6 (36:46):
As you know, Pakistan accuses Afghanistan the Taliban of giving
refuge to the Tariki Taliban Taliban the t TP, which
has been locked in war as you know, with the
with the government and someone in the armed forces for
a very long time. The Afghans deny that and no
side is backing down. Both sides are saying they have
(37:07):
a right to attack their neighbor Indian. And then there's
that age old rivalry between India and Pakistan that India
and Pakistan always see a shadow of their other war.
Whatever happens in Afghanistan, it is a very very dangerous
moment and it could escalate if wiser, cooler heads don't prevail,
but so far that the heads aren't cooling.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Jude is calling in from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Yeah, a
beautiful place. Go ahead with your question for.
Speaker 14 (37:38):
Lidy said yes, no, thanks so much for taking my call. Yes,
my question is about the recent BBC scale involved in
the Donald Trump's speech and if you think that this
was placed into the narrative of when Trump talked about
the fake news media, the fact that BBC spliced his
speech up to say something that he didn't really.
Speaker 6 (38:01):
Can I say, first of offers, and not to avoid
I'm gonna answer the question, but I was going to
say to Jeremy, I hope there's a caller from Louisiana
because my ancestry is Cajun. I'm an Acadian from Canada.
And if you go, and I'm sure in Baton Rouge
and Lafayette there's du set buildings do set houses. My family,
(38:22):
the Ducet family, is one of the original Acadian families,
and when the British expelled the Acadians in seventeen fifty five,
we went down to the thirteen colonies and to Louisiana.
That's why Cajun music, Cajun cooking. So I was hoping
my cousins from Louisiana would call today.
Speaker 8 (38:38):
I've got Baton rouge. Yeah, yeah, son.
Speaker 6 (38:43):
But any of your question with the BBC, this is
a very painful time for the BBC. I'm not an editor,
so I'm not in the managing board, but i'm as
senior correspondent for the BBC. What has been said tonight
is that the BBC has apologized and said we made
an error. There was an editing era. It should have been,
it should have been, it should not have happened where
(39:05):
they took one part of President Trump's speech from the
beginning of the speech and one part from the end
of the speech and instead of putting something in it,
you know, we talk about a flash or something or
indicating that these were happening at a different time, but
by putting them together they created a different impact. Now,
of course, the piece is not the only one to
have reported on President Trump's January sixth speech.
Speaker 8 (39:27):
He's accused by some people.
Speaker 6 (39:28):
Of having that having triggered the kind or at least
caused an atmosphere. President Trump, of course calls it a
perfect speech. He's now threatening to soon. In fact, he
started legal action against the BBC. So suffice it to
say that BBC says, okay, an error was made. We
accept that an error was made. Many are saying, you
(39:49):
should have dealt with that earlier. They took their time.
Now they've apologized to President Trump. Now it's in the
legal field, and those of us in the BBC who
are reporters are just saying, but let's use this opportunity
as a way to strengthen the BBC, to strengthen broadcaster.
Here we are speaking on this great program which is
(40:09):
part of the public of informing the public across the
United States. We need public we need public broadcasting, we
need independent broadcast. It's a fundamental pillar of democracy. With
independent broadcasting takes a hit, so too does our democratic society.
And many believe in Britain that there is still a
(40:31):
place for public broadcasting and the BBC is still trusted.
But we are now having a lot of introspection at
the BBC and there's a long tail. As with almost
every media organization the world over, we're accused of pro
pro Palestinian bias and also pro Israeli bias, and so
there have been some really challenging moments and mistakes have
(40:54):
been made by the BBC. Only God is perfect, as
we say, And because it's because the BBC's public and
belongs to the public, we come under far more scrutiny,
far more pressure than any other media organization in Britain.
It should be that because we belong to the people
of Britain who pay for it. But there's a huge,
(41:14):
huge conversation going on in Britain right now about the
future of the BBC public broadcasting and that is a
good thing.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
Well.
Speaker 2 (41:22):
And it's interesting that this is about the editing of
a speech, because if you go onto social media right now,
nobody would have any qualms about making a cut or
even putting in an artificial intelligence created speech of Donald Trump.
But in the traditional media organizations like the BBC, like NPR,
like others, there are standards that have to be adhered
(41:43):
to and people expect that of them. Chris is calling
in from Fort Worth, Texas. Hi, Chris, we were just
there last week, but go ahead with your.
Speaker 13 (41:51):
Question, other guys, big fan of both of you, guys.
Speaker 4 (41:55):
I was calling to see if if you feel like
there are any stories or current events that are currently
happening that maybe aren't getting enough airtime that you think
that they deserve.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
Great question, Chris, thank you.
Speaker 8 (42:08):
M m oh wow, that's really good. You got a
good audience.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
I like this, wrong gram.
Speaker 8 (42:15):
I might stay up in the middle of the night
in Britain two am to three am and the music
music is off the charts. Wow, keep me, keep me. Okay,
you go, guys.
Speaker 6 (42:26):
I mentioned earlier about Sudan, but Sudan is getting a
bit more. We don't talk about the rahingas from from
me and mar who are languishing and suffering, and in
camps and Indian and Bangladesh, we don't talk. There's lots
of places that, you know, South Sudan doesn't get up.
There's so many places that don't get I mean, their
(42:48):
world doesn't. There's a lot of news, and of course
domestic news and local news, and President Trump brings a
lot a lot of news. So I'm just trying to
think whether I could think. I think Sudan definitely deserves,
definitely deserves more. Afghanistan definitely deserves more. Partly it's a
problem again, we're back to what Jeremy and I, you know,
we talked about earlier that it's hard for journalists to
(43:10):
get into Sudan. It's hard for journalists to get into
Afghanistan as well. And even though the I mean, the
journalists on the ground, particularly in Gaza, have done a
job which can only be described as heroic, but it
also helps to strengthen local journalists. When international journalists come in,
they provide resources, they provide some security, and they shine
(43:34):
a bigger light on what is what is happening.
Speaker 8 (43:38):
In in many of these in many of these countries,
we work together.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
Gregory is calling in from Chicago. Hi, Gregory, I go
ahead with your question.
Speaker 5 (43:48):
Reasoning Madame Dus said, I have the opportunity to see
former Polish President Les Valenza on his international speaking to
speak here in Chicago and October.
Speaker 6 (44:00):
Oh wow, and.
Speaker 8 (44:02):
It brings us in history, isn't it? What a spending
time that was?
Speaker 9 (44:08):
It was?
Speaker 5 (44:09):
And I attended the European Newnglear Disarmament Conference in March
of nineteen eighty three, which subsequently led to Gorba, Chavi
and Reagan bringing down the Cold Iron the Iron Wall
and ending the Cold War. And the understanding was Natal
would not expand one inch east of East Germany and
let Valenco put out a clearing call, which I think
(44:32):
was his main message, because this is only international speaking tour.
He's up in age eighty one and a wonderful man,
and it was it was great to everyone greeted him
afterwards and I'll never forget that. And he said that
we're moving from the age. You know, we move from
the age of empires and kings to nation states the
last five hundred years, but we really need to go
(44:54):
to continental and then ultimately global management. And the European
Union with twenty eight countries that used to fight each
other for centuries, is the example of that. But he
still vilified Russia as being, you know, a gangster county
and they've never known democracy, and so I just wanted
to see if you could say something at least from
the Russian perspective about NATO expansion, as at least part
(45:17):
of the understanding of why they went in to get
that buffer from Euro's nuclear missiles.
Speaker 7 (45:21):
In the future.
Speaker 6 (45:22):
Maybe thank you, thank you, Greg, Yeah, thank you very
much for bringing us back. It's you know, some of
us like to take refuge in history, but those are
absolutely Madni. Those were defining times which changed the shape
of the world changed, the shape of superpower politics. And
there back to that moment where we dared to believe.
You had friends Fukuyami talking about the end of history,
(45:42):
that the old age, old rivalry, a dangerous rivalry between
the Soviet Empire and the American Empire, would end for
the good of all peoples. And there was there was
a very ecstatic moment. And now, of course we live
in a very different age. There's been a lot of
discussion about what was actually said in that speech and
whether there was a promise not to move, as you
(46:04):
put it into one inch. President Putin talks about it
endlessly that promises were broken, that he felt threatened by it.
Speaker 8 (46:14):
Others would say, including.
Speaker 6 (46:15):
Countries like Finland and Sweden who recently joined the NATO
Military Alliance even though for decades they had been remained neutral,
is that it doesn't really have that. The countries of
the former Soviet Union were not pushed by NATO or
pulled by NATO into its embrace. They wanted to join NATO,
they wanted to become part of the international community. This
(46:38):
was not forced conscription to join the world's biggest military alliance.
These countries were embracing their new democracy. They were out
from under the Soviet yoke, and they chose to look
west and not east. I have to say I was
in Kiev during those days of huge foreboding when President
Putin did his history lesson to talking about how Ukraine
(47:01):
was a mistake, the Bolshevis made a mistake and giving
parts of Ukraine parts of Russia away, that there was
no it was a fiction that Ukraine belonged in Russia.
And he keeps saying that, he keeps presenting the maps
to President Trump, that Ukraine doesn't have a right to exist,
and being in Ukraine at that time, I have to
say that Ukrainians being told that they did not have
(47:25):
a right to exist made Ukrainians even more Ukrainian. And
I don't think you can President Putin doesn't have the
right in our day and age. Although we had President
Trump wanting to take parts of Greenland, wanting to take
parts of Canada, right wanting today.
Speaker 2 (47:41):
Parts hasn't talked about that in a while, Right, Yeah,
they sort of stopped stopped on that one. I know
I'm going to regret this, Tolliver, but I'm going to
go to one more quick call because it's a fun one. Helena,
You've got to be very fast in Houston, Texas. Helena
go ahead for Lisa.
Speaker 15 (47:53):
Said, okay, very quickly. One, I guess if I'm the
last caller, let's ended on a lighthearted note. Have you
heard the news about the Norwegian princess and the shaman marrying?
I wanted an update on that? And two, if there's
any other lighthearted news that we could maybe take a
deep breath on and in the night with ye.
Speaker 8 (48:14):
Princess? Do I have I missed that?
Speaker 2 (48:16):
What was what was the I missed that too, So yeah,
I think there was something.
Speaker 15 (48:19):
American American shaman.
Speaker 6 (48:22):
Oh yes, I know about that one. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
not that I'm being trivial. I know about that one.
Speaker 8 (48:26):
And I know about Justin Trudeau is dating Katie Perry.
Speaker 6 (48:29):
And I know the Blue Jays lost to the Dodgers,
but we fought a really good uh so those are
the kind of stories.
Speaker 8 (48:36):
So in Toronto, I was on.
Speaker 6 (48:37):
Blue Jay's way and I said, yes we go, blue
Jays win. So we do we all need lightness in
our life?
Speaker 3 (48:43):
We do?
Speaker 2 (48:44):
Well, thank you for ending us on on that note.
BBC Chief International Correspondent, least do set. Her new book
is called The Finest Hotelling Couple. Thank you so much
for joining us. It's been great having you here.
Speaker 8 (48:54):
I've loved being on.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Thank you, and next week we'll be right back here
with the host of the Last and podcast, which explores
some of the biggest concerns about the future of AI.
We want to know if you are excited by AI
or if you fear that it will destroy us All Tolliver.
Speaker 3 (49:09):
Head over to listen to the Middle dot com to
join the conversation, and subscribe to The Middle wherever you
get your podcasts so you don't miss a single episode.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
The Middle is brought to you by Longnok Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and Urbana Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmisdas, John Barth, Anicadesslar, and
Brandon Condritz. Our technical director this week, Jason Croft. Thanks
to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and the
hundreds of public radio stations making it possible for people
across the country to listen to the Middle. I'm Jeremy
(49:37):
Hobson and I will talk to you next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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