April 4, 2025 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we ask what can be done to improve the legal immigration system in America. Jeremy is joined by Bloomberg immigration reporter Alicia Caldwell and Zeke Hernandez, a professor at the Wharton School of Business at the University of Pennsylvania and author of the book The Truth About Immigration. DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus calls from around the country. #immigration #H1B #greencard #border #permanentresident #legalimmigration
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by
building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on
how you can support the Middle at listen toothemiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and
Tolliver we have some new listeners this week.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Yeah, welcome to the listeners of NHPR New Hampshire Public
Radio all across the Granite State, from Colebrook to Nashaua.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
All the way.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
I didn't have to look up that pronunciation.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
No, No, you should know that one.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And of course it's a very important state every four
years in the primary process in terms of picking who
the presidential nominees will be. In fact, New Hampshire was
very important to President Trump's campaign the first time when
he won the primary back in twenty sixteen and told
voters he'd fixed the state's drug problems by tightening the border.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
We're going to have strong, incredible borders, and people are
going We're going to come into our country, but they're
going to come into our country legally.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
They're going to come in legally.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
So that last part is our focus this hour. People
who are coming into the United States legally. About two
point six million people did so in twenty twenty two,
far outpacing unauthorized entries, and more than eight hundred thousand
immigrants became US citizens last year. But we know that
process is slow and inefficient. So what can be done
(01:27):
to improve legal immigration in this country?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That's our question.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
We want to hear from you at eight four to
four for middle that's eight four four four six four
three three five three.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
We will get to that in just a moment.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
But first, last week we asked you whether or not
America is over medicated. Here are some of the comments
we got after the show.
Speaker 6 (01:45):
Hi, my name is Susie Colin from Denver, Colorado. As
a very fortunate, very healthy sixty one year old, I
think that there are a lot of Americans that are
just looking for a quick fix, that don't want to
put in the work and have a health for your life.
Speaker 7 (02:00):
That My name is Jonathan Carrol. I live in Phoenix, Arizona.
I was diagnosed with ADHD. My mother refused to give
me medication. I suffered greatly from it. I failed out
of school. I felt those stupid I had nothing but issues.
I was later rediagnosed when I was older, and are
now on medication and feel like I can actually do
(02:21):
things again.
Speaker 8 (02:22):
Hello, my name is Deborah. I'm calling from clare Water, Florida.
Every single person has a combination of their own unique genetics,
so there's a virtual infinite range of whether or not
we need medication.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
You can hear that entire episode on our podcast in
partnership with iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever
you listen to podcasts. So now to our topic this hour,
what can we do to improve legal immigration? Tolliver the
phone number please.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
It's eight four four four a middle. That's eight four
four four six four three three five three. You can
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com.
You can also comment on our live stream on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram,
and Twitch.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Reach out on manning all the social media. Okay, you
get you on.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Air all of them. Let's meet our panels.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Ze Carnandez is a professor at the Wharton School at
the University of Pennsylvania. His book is called The Truth
About Immigration zee Crnandez, welcome to the.
Speaker 9 (03:16):
Middle thanks so much for having me on.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
And Alicia Caldwell joins us as well. She covers immigration
for Bloomberg. Alicia, welcome to.
Speaker 10 (03:23):
You appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So before we go to the phones, Alicia just set
the stage for us. How difficult is it for someone
right now in twenty twenty five to get a visa,
a green card, or US citizenship.
Speaker 11 (03:37):
Incredibly, when you start with a visa, you know there's
there's narrow categories. There's lots of categories, but they're somewhat narrow, right,
So if you are, say a high skilled worker, there's
only sixty five thousand, h one B visas and they're
issued by lottery. So a company hires you and you
are overseas in whichever country you pick, right, you have
(03:59):
a a real long shot that your company is going
to be selected and that you will be the person
that they hire for that job. Even if you've gone
to school here, you know, obviously there's there's paths for
training in the United States. Once you've gone to school
here and you've you've graduated with a US degree or
a graduate degree. But the days of you know, staple
a green card to the diploma are over. I mean
(04:22):
it never really existed. But even that push has long
since passed.
Speaker 10 (04:25):
There's a push and.
Speaker 11 (04:26):
Pull over whether or not the sixty five thousand caps
should be expanded or shrunk. Industry would tell you it
needs to be expanded and refined again. You know, it's
a lottery system at this point. So everybody enters, every
business enters that wants to sponsor an employee, and then
the winners are just that, they're they're winners, some you know,
(04:46):
bigger than others. But it's it's incredibly difficult, and once
you're here, your process is really long, depending on where
you're from. If you're from India, you may never get
a green card line.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
There's so many people from India that want to But
zekrant is when you look at the numbers. Overall, around
fifty million people in the US are foreign born immigrants.
That is way higher than the next highest, which is
Germany around sixteen million. We've been bringing in a lot
more immigrants than other countries. What is wrong in your
(05:17):
view with our legal immigration system?
Speaker 9 (05:21):
Well, where to even start, right, But I think one
place to start is the last time we updated that
system in terms of the number and types of visas
we allow was nineteen ninety, right, so it's been thirty
five years.
Speaker 12 (05:33):
Right.
Speaker 9 (05:34):
Our economy is different, it's twice it's more than twice
as large as it was back then. Our demographic profile
is very different. And so if you look right now,
immigrants are just above fourteen percent of our population, which
is you know, if you look at the long arc
of American history, that's just about normal. It's what it
was about one hundred years ago. But back then our
(05:54):
demographic profile was very different, right, And so we don't
issue enough visas, enough legal visas.
Speaker 12 (06:02):
Right.
Speaker 9 (06:02):
So Alisha gave the example of the H one B.
If you look at our green card system, we've been
issuing a million Green cards a year since nineteen ninety,
but we need a lot more of them, given our
demographic profile and the size of our economy, the variety
of our economy. The other thing that's wrong is that
we really have only two or three major pathway centry.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Right.
Speaker 9 (06:23):
More than two thirds of our green cards go to
family reunification immigrants people rejoining their families. Only one hundred
and forty thousand are Green cards sponsored by an employer, Right,
I mean the state of Pennsylvania where I live alone,
could use all of those every year. Right, Of those
one hundred and forty thousand, only five thousand go to
people without a college degree who do essential work in
(06:45):
all kinds of industries. And so the system is so decrepit,
so out of date, and so much smaller than it
needs to be that you know, that's why you get
these like incredibly long lines that Alisha referred. So we
got to make it bigger and more varied.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So what are the politics of it right now? Does
the Trump administration want to make it easier for people
to come in legally, whether they are working in high
skilled jobs or in agriculture for that.
Speaker 11 (07:10):
Matter, sort of is the short answer. The longer answer
is it's complicated. Elon Musk wants a ton more H
ONEB visus other folks don't, And so there's this opposition
and this conflict of how do you expand the market
share for foreign workers. Most people agree we need more
(07:31):
foreign labor. As Zeke said, you know, the foreign born
population in the US is only about fourteen percent, and
it's been static for I think close to one hundred years,
so you're not really growing at that but what you're
seeing as an expansion of arrivals or you had in
the last several years. Now those folks are by and
large coming across the border illegally, but then sort of
(07:52):
sitting into a gray area right there. Asylum seekers, they
secure GPS after their arrival, they were humane arrian parole.
Those folks get work permits often sometimes it takes a
long time if you're you know, depending on your circumstances.
But in twenty twenty two, for instance, new arrivals accounted
for one point one million new work authorizations. So those
(08:13):
are people at every level of the economy, from agriculture,
but you don't need a visa in that case, right
So that's sort of a built in faucet of people,
if you will. That faucet that's bigot has turned off entirely.
So right now you have almost no illegal migration into
the United States, which is the president's goal. We're only
about seven thousand arrests at the southwest border in March.
Speaker 10 (08:36):
He wants zero.
Speaker 11 (08:38):
But what that also means is you don't have any
new labor coming in, and those other legal pathways are
narrowing dramatically. We're seeing, for instance, green card holders and
visa holders being taken into immigration custody, their visas revoked,
student visas in particular, a couple of green card holders
either based on their activity that the government has deemed,
(08:59):
you know, incompass with the United States foreign policy or
other approaches. But we're seeing that crackdown sort of expansively moving, right,
So all the legal pathways that we're there as well narrowing.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
And zeke, I guess the people that Alicia is talking
about who would say we don't need to make this
a smoother process would be people like Steve Bannon, who
would say any worker that's coming in is taking away
a job from an American worker. You argue in your
book that that is not the case at all.
Speaker 9 (09:29):
Yeah, and it's not just me making the argument. If
you look at the empirical evidence, you look at the
good peer reviewed evidence that is very very apparent. Okay,
immigrants do not take jobs from native workers, whether skilled
or unskilled. There's a lot of reasons for that. But
the simplest way I can put it is as follows.
When you look at the economic evidence, immigrants bring five
(09:49):
critical inputs into the economy. They bring their talent or labor,
they bring investment, they bring innovation, they consume goods and services,
and they pay taxes.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Right.
Speaker 9 (10:00):
These are critical inputs for economic growth that make the
economic pie bigger and more diversified, which means that there's
more jobs for everyone to go around.
Speaker 13 (10:08):
Right.
Speaker 9 (10:08):
Immigrants would only take away jobs from natives if all
they did was arrive and take jobs, but not bring
any of the other four things that I talked about,
because then the economic pie would stay fixed. But that's
not what happens, right, which is why at the local
level you talk to any mayor, governor or chamber of commerce,
the one number one thing that they're desperate for are workers.
And our only source of new workers is really immigration.
Speaker 13 (10:31):
Right.
Speaker 9 (10:32):
Pretty much all the growth and new workers in this
economy in the last several years has come from immigration.
It has not come from natural growth because we're not
having any. So that claim is simply incorrect. It's empirically,
verifiably incorrect.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
And yet it's even made it to South Park where
they're saying, you know, they took our jobs. It's like
a line, but you're.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Saying that's wrong.
Speaker 9 (10:53):
Yeah, yeah. And I also, if you wouldn't mind just
giving me thirty seconds. To add something to what Alicia
said is that I I think often we make the
mistake of separating the legal immigration system from what's happening
with the undocumented or illegal system. The truth is that
the only solution to reduce the undocumented immigrant population is
to make more legal pathways available. Those are perfect substitutes.
Speaker 12 (11:17):
Right.
Speaker 9 (11:17):
Why do we have so much undocumented immigration because paths
don't exist or so outrageously long that our economy ends
up filling them by accepting undocumented workers.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Tolliver.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Alisha mentioned the lottery system for the H one V
visa and of course people that are in that lottery
would have a seventy five percent chance of being rejected.
Speaker 14 (11:39):
Wow.
Speaker 12 (11:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
And during the presidential campaign, President Trump went on the
All In podcast and said he wanted to change that.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
What I want to do and what I will do
is you graduate from a college, I think you should
get automatically as part of your diploma, a green card
to be able to stay in this country. And that
includes junior colleges too. Anybody graduates from a college, you
go in there for two years or four years. If
you graduate or you get a doctorate degree from college,
you should be able to stay in this country.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Important to note that Trump said in that interview that
he wanted to start doing that on day one of
his presidency.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
It has not happened yet.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Ooh, TikTok. We're waiting.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
We'll be right back with more of the Middle. This
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the Middle.
This hour, we're asking you how can we improve legal
immigration tolliver? What is the number to call in?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I'm joined by Bloomberg immigration reporter Alicia Caldwell and University
of Pennsylvania professor ze Hernandez. And the phones are lighting up.
So let's go to Barriicette in Atlanta, Georgia. Barriicett, Welcome
to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
What do you think?
Speaker 15 (12:59):
Well, I think, you know, the lottery system is really great,
but I think that needs even to be more streamlined.
In my view, I think there's a lot of randomness
in it. And with that what I mean, and I
think you could really enhance that by really allowing to
see closer to the hr Pisa, where you really look
at the academics, the people that are coming into this country.
(13:22):
I think they eventually end up becoming through job creators,
drivers of industry, and I think that has to be
looked from that perspective when you give immigration rights to people,
so that way, really the return of investment is huge
for the country as a whole and for the individual
that might otherwise not have had that opportunity in the
(13:43):
country that is oppressing them. So I think they wouldn't
win in that way.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So I mean, have for you yourself Barricket gone through
the immigration system in this country.
Speaker 15 (13:53):
Yeah, I did. I was lucky enough to come in
with my father right, so he was self started at
his own business and Africa and at the time he
was able to be able to grow as much as
he wanted. There was a lot of extreme policy and
this was more an Ethiopian in each other there was
(14:14):
a lot of civil war. So the only way he
could move was to leave the country, and he left,
and eventually we all came into this country. But I'm
saying that I think eventually all of us, even if
he was a lot, myself or my brother, we've done well.
We went to school here, and we've gone through the
academics rigor that not really that one used to do.
(14:37):
And we all make more than you know, six figures
income or each one of us. So we basically contribute
to the country. And I don't necessarily think we're taken
jobs from the country. I think out of contribution is
probably more to the country that we are serving as
our own country right now, which is the US. And
I literally believe this is my country right now and
my view.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Berik, thank you very much for that. Z Carnandez your
thoughts on that personal story.
Speaker 9 (15:04):
Yeah, I mean that's the story of immigrants of all classes, right,
and they don't you know, they definitely come and they
contribute all of these things. I think what one part
of the story that I think it's Barricad's story illustrates
is that actually the children of immigrants do very very
well in this country, right. They earn very well. That
means they're paying taxes, that means you know, many of
(15:26):
them are starting businesses at very high rates, and so
I think, you know, Barrikat's story is a story of
immigrants of all types throughout all US history.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
There's nothing to fear there, Alicia.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
We were recently in Denver and did a podcast about
how deportations are playing out there, and one of the
things we heard is that people who are here legally
are worried that they're going to be caught up in
a raid and deported.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And we just heard the story the other day of
the man.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
In Maryland who was here legally, who the Trump administration
says was accidentally deported to that prison in El Salvador.
How is the crackdown on illegal immigrants affecting people in
this country who are following the laws.
Speaker 11 (16:06):
So that's where it gets complicated, because nobody quite knows
who may be of target. Because again, once you've arrived,
and you know, the US government has said, hey, we
understand you're here, they've processed you. They've opted in many
cases over the last several years to release people and
say hey, come back to court at at a different date.
We can't detain you, we don't have the space, and
(16:27):
so on and so now you're in legal limbo. You're
not here legally, but you're definitely not here illegally. And
as I said, you know, most of those folks have
illegal process underway. They're going to court, they'll get a
work permit, if they're if they've applied for asylum or
some other benefit, you know, if temporary protected status or.
Speaker 10 (16:44):
What have you.
Speaker 11 (16:46):
And historically those processes do protect a migrant from removal.
That process needs to play out, be it in the
immigration court or through the temporary protected status program. There's
an effort to get rid of all of that. Temporary
protected statuses is you know, threatened to be canceled, at
(17:06):
least for several countries, including Venezuela. A federal court has
blocked that for now, but the administration has made clear
they have no intention if they're allowed to renew that
process or to renew those protections for those in the
immigration court system.
Speaker 10 (17:21):
We don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker 11 (17:22):
So you know, I've been speaking to people all over
the country, just books to a Venezuelan family that sort
of fits all of these puzzle pieces, right. They have
TPS for some of the family. They're all applying for asylum.
They're from Venezuela, which is a primary target country right now,
so they're genuinely concerned sort of on a daily basis
as they go to work with their work permits and
(17:43):
will they be arrested at some point They don't know.
We don't know, frankly, because the administration is fanning out
and their philosophy is anybody in the country without authorization
with that a visa without a sort of permanency or
semi permanency is is sort of fair game that's to
be determined in the courts as as to you know,
what authorizes status and so on. But we're seeing that expansion,
(18:05):
so people at every level of the immigration system are worried.
You know, I've talked to Green card holders who are
concerned about leaving the country. One friend said, you know,
we're not going to go to Italy this summer because
we just don't know what's next on the horizon, so
we'd rather just stay domestic. So you're seeing some of
those that calculus change and decision making change at again,
(18:28):
every level of the immigration system.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Let's get to another called Dan is in Kansas City, Missouri. Dan,
how could we improve the legal immigration system in your view.
Speaker 16 (18:39):
Good evening. I mean my view at the best improvement
for right now would be a complete, across the board
immigration moratorium. You know, from all parts of the world.
Both of the guests have been emphasizing the need for industry,
about cheap labor and the economic benefits of immigration, which
(19:00):
is important. But man does not live by bread alone.
We need to make sure that we have a strong
social fabric, a cohesive national identity, and a sense of
shared values and destiny. And we've absorbed a lot of
foreigners over the last five years, twenty years, thirty years,
(19:21):
and I think that we really need to kind of
digest that. And I mean Japan, for example, has a
very restrictive immigration system. They're aging and their GDP is lower,
and they could change that by importing, you know, millions
of foreign people, but then it wouldn't be Japanese Japan anymore.
(19:42):
So I think that you know, economic considerations aside that
there are intangible things that are more important than money.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
And you okay that interesting point. Dan, Thank you very
much for that. Zeke your response to Dan. There there
are obviously a lot of people in this country who
agree with what Dan just had to say there.
Speaker 9 (20:02):
Yeah, yeah, I've heard that point many times. Dan thinks,
thanks for calling in. Look, I don't know much about you, Dan,
and I'm going to assume that your ancestors were immigrant
at some point in the past. And you know, it's
interesting because one hundred years ago, the same argument was
made for closing the borders to Italian, Southern and Eastern
Europeans Asians immigrants who were you know, the Irish, right,
(20:27):
So every every wave of immigration raises that same concern
of you know, we need to make sure that we
stay socially cohesive, that we preserve what is essential about
American identity. And you know, the same concerns are being
expressed today. And some people believe that somehow the immigrants
of the past assimilate, you know, better, assimilated better than
(20:47):
the immigrants today. What I can tell Dan is that
when you look at the evidence, the immigrants right now
are assimilating at the exact same rate and just as
successfully as Dan's ancestors, and they do very well in
adopting American values, American culture. There there is you know,
from the empirical evidence, we don't have cohesion problems, right,
(21:09):
Immigrants do very well they're very patriotic, they love the constitution,
they adopt political values that are very similar to whatever
community they settle in. So you know, immigrants, of course
bring new things. But the evidence doesn't support that concern.
And I would say what's interesting about the example of
Japan that Dan gave is that Japan is desperately trying
(21:30):
to implement an immigration system for the very reasons that
it that it is really really struggling. That's true of
South Korea and many other so called cohesive or homogeneous countries.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
So that's a.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Lot of a lot of financial woes for a long time,
in large part because of the population decline that's going
on there. Tolliver what is coming in online?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
So this is Charles Okay, he wrote six paragraphs and
put in one sentence it's too expensive for American parents
who have a child overseas to make that child a citizen.
Daniels from San Simeon says, an immigrant is taking our jobs.
His name is Elon Leslie from Minnesota. Leslie from the
Great State of Minnesota says advocates for more immigration assume
(22:13):
that the US should embrace unlimited population growth. Ecosystems cannot
support unlimited population growth. I'm kind of curious what you
all think about that. Is there sort of like a
limit where we sort of where resources get too thin
or no, Alicia.
Speaker 10 (22:30):
Dude, it's that's an interesting question.
Speaker 11 (22:32):
You know, I haven't met anybody in my twenty years
of covering the border and immigration ritt large in the US,
who who says, you know everybody and anybody, let's just
sort of free for all. Now, we did have a
free for all, you know. I'm not specifically of immigrant stock,
if you will, but my family came over, you know,
(22:52):
in the early nineteen hundreds when there was no process literally,
you know, great granddad got on a boat with his brother,
that sort of thing. So that that has changed obviously
dramatically over the last century.
Speaker 10 (23:04):
And again, I've not.
Speaker 11 (23:05):
Met anybody who says, you know anybody and everybody. There
are processes, and you know, one of the hang ups
that many administrations have faced, particularly since the middle of
the Obama administration, is this appeal for asylum. And the
law is currently notwithstanding some regulation changes. However, one gets
(23:28):
to the United States, they can ask for asylum. There's
one exception to that, and that's if you've come from
Canada and you are not a Canadian national, or you
go from the US to Canada and you're not a
US national, you have to ask for asylum in the
first country you were in, meaning Canada or the United States.
That's the only third safe country agreement the US has.
But otherwise, anyone who gets to the United States under
(23:53):
whatever means they got here, they're allowed to ask for asylum.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Now there's even now in the Trump administration, you can.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Still do that.
Speaker 11 (24:01):
Well, no, because there was a policy change under President Biden.
There was, you know, legislation to codify this, it had
bipartisan support. President Trump said he didn't like it ultimately,
and so the bill failed. So President Biden implemented a
policy change and said no one who comes or generally speaking,
no one who comes between ports of entry crosses the
(24:22):
border illegally is going to be considered eligible for asylum.
So they created a path go to the ports of entry.
Now it's interesting hearing the Biden or the excuse me,
the Trump administration shut that off as well. They've closed
access to to ports. Because I covered the Trump administration
in their first tour of the White House, and they
were very specific to say go to the port of
(24:44):
entry if you would like to seek asylum. That's they
deemed that the legal path.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
To do so.
Speaker 11 (24:50):
And so you've got all these different avenues. But the
law is that you can apply for asylum. The rule
administratively is that you can't. So right now now, no
one under generally speaking, is allowed to ask for asylum
in the United States, either at the border or in
advance the refugee program, which effectively think of it as
(25:12):
a parallel to asylum, but you're invited as.
Speaker 10 (25:15):
Opposed to you show up. That is also shut down
for now.
Speaker 11 (25:18):
So any path one had for asylum is now shut down.
And we're seeing a result of that, seven thousand apprehensions
in a month. That's never happened that anyone can remember.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Asylum a big part of the legal immigration system. Let's
go to Justin, who's in Denver, Colorado. Hi, Justin, Welcome
to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 13 (25:38):
Thank you so much for covering the topic. It's great
to hear. I've been to Kenya a few times and
they easily issued me a tourist visa, but I cannot
get even a tourist visa from our close friends Kenyon,
who wants to come to the States. And we've also
found that you can't get a work visa unless you're
from certain countries and that pretty much excludes the entire
(25:59):
continent of Africa. To my proposal to improve it, as
I've said, well, let's put an ankle monitor on anybody
who wants to visit our country, make it easier from
the visit.
Speaker 14 (26:08):
But they're so.
Speaker 13 (26:09):
Afraid that they may immigrate. And maybe that's a silly idea,
but they it was very very rude process. How they
it was like a two year process to get an
interviewed for a tourist visa and.
Speaker 12 (26:19):
He was not.
Speaker 13 (26:20):
I said, well, then why don't we just treat everyone
like a criminal and have an ankle monitor on them,
and that way we can ensure that they don't stay.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Thank you all very much for seeing Thank you justin Zeke.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I mean, I don't know that i'd want to go
visit a country that made me put an ankle monitor.
Speaker 9 (26:36):
On but yeah, you know, I have never heard that, right,
so the proposal catches me a little bit off guard.
I would say that one, our tourist system is not
our immigration system, right, we don't think of tourism as immigration.
But yeah, I think that would have all kinds of
constitutional challenges, right, because our constitution does grant rights to
(26:58):
anyone who is on a mare and soil, even if
they're you know, visiting or or on temporary visits. Now,
you know, can can we do better to ensure that
people are following the law?
Speaker 8 (27:10):
I think?
Speaker 9 (27:11):
I think I generally think that's that's a good principle
that we can agree on. I don't know about the
ankle monitor though.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Let's go to Yara, who's in Madison, Wisconsin, Hyyara, what
do you think?
Speaker 13 (27:25):
Hi?
Speaker 17 (27:27):
Yes, yes, I was thinking along the lines of the
barriers that they are in immigration. I mean, speaking for
myself and for many people who I know who went
through the process, it is really something with so many
hoops and so many challenges that I think that a
lot of people who are perfectly qualified and that would
be incredible where con citizens just get lost in the
(27:49):
leads and as a result of all this barriers kind
of fell through the crack.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
So what would you do about it?
Speaker 18 (27:56):
I think that one of the things that I would propose,
and at least in this current administration, as reducing the
requirements and kind of become that process more expert edged
and clear. I mean, community outreach has been a huge
part of my journey towards becoming a citizenship a citizen
and like having people in the communities that can help
(28:19):
navigate that process is a huge thing that I think
to be implemented all around.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, yaha, thank you very much, Alicia.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I will say whenever we do a story, whenever I've
done a story about immigrants, there is always the group
that helps assimilate people in any community in this country.
Speaker 12 (28:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (28:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 11 (28:39):
You know you're going to find church groups, other social
network groups that just you know, go out of their
way to help people assimilate. We've seen that with the
Uniting for Ukraine program, which was basically a humanitarian sponsorship.
If you could find somebody in the United States who
would sponsor you and vouch for your finances, if you
will that they would take care of you and help
(28:59):
you get old, you could come to the United States
under this humanitarian program. Biden administration expanded that to Cuba, Nicaragua, Haiti,
and Venezuela, and many of the numbers of people from
those countries crossing the border illicitly dropped and the Biden
administration would tell you, Hey, this is this is.
Speaker 10 (29:18):
How we do it.
Speaker 11 (29:19):
We create a legal pathway and people won't go through
the jungles and they won't take these treacherous routes. You know,
that's under fire right now from the Trump administration. But yeah,
there's all kinds of red tape's. It is complicated to
become a resident. It's complicated to become a citizen.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And by the way, to become a citizen, Tolliver, you
have to pass a civics test, which many native born
Americans might have a hard time with.
Speaker 6 (29:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (29:46):
Me.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
You know, like when they asked who was president during
World War One? Listeners were waiting who was president? Turns
out it was Jay Leno. He actually had some fun
with this back when he was hosting the Tonight Show.
Speaker 16 (29:58):
What country did we fight in the Revolutiontionary War France?
What does the Emancipation Proclamation mean?
Speaker 4 (30:05):
What did it do?
Speaker 11 (30:11):
The amanfimation? Approximation, the Emancipation Proclamation?
Speaker 8 (30:16):
What did it do?
Speaker 6 (30:17):
I don't know.
Speaker 10 (30:18):
You've heard of it.
Speaker 11 (30:18):
I have heard of it.
Speaker 10 (30:20):
Free the slave, Yes, that's what.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
By the way, the answer to that World War One
question was Woodrow Wilson, not Jay Leno.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
The promancimation clation.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, that one? What did that one do? Again? Right,
We'll be right back with more of your calls on
the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
In this hour, we're asking you, uh, what you would
do to improve legal immigration in this country. You can
call us at eight four four four Middle that's eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can reach out and listen to the Middle dot com.
My guests are University of Pennsylvania professor ze Crnandez and
Bloomberg Immigration reporter Alicia Caledwell. Uh, and before we go
back to the phones, Zeke, you, as we say, make
(31:01):
the case that immigrants are net positive contributors to society.
But one of the things we've seen in this country
and in other countries around the world, is that if
too many come in too fast, there is a political backlash.
How do you find the right balance, the right pace,
the right mix of immigrants to come into a country
like the United States.
Speaker 9 (31:21):
Yeah, I mean, look, anyone who tells you what the
right rate or the right number is is lying to you, right.
The truth is, we don't know for sure, but I
think I think it's useful to separate immigrants and what
they do, and in fact that they do a lot
of good. But also what's interesting when you look at
the data is that people like immigrants, right when they
talk about their immigrant neighbors, the people that they are
(31:42):
exposed to, they like them. They're not threatened by them.
And then most of what's wrong is the immigration system,
which is what we're talking about. And so a lot
of it happens when immigrants, to any immigrants arrive to
one flash point, right, which is usually a system problem,
or when we don't have a way to kind of
distribute them, you know, kind of more evenly, so to speak.
(32:03):
And a lot of that is less about immigration, but
it's a lot about things like how we build infrastructure.
So it turns out that like the housing crisis and
the problem of building infrastructure we have is not independent
of people's opinions about immigration. Right, If people feel like
it's crowded, they're upset, But it's not really about immigrants.
It's just about the crowding. And so I would say
a lot of it has to do with that how
(32:23):
we build infrastructure, housing, those kinds of things, rather than
the foreign people themselves if that.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Meant And as you said, the last time we had
real immigration reform was decades ago.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
And if you look back to.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
The immigration reform built in the nineteen eighties, which offered
amnesty to the people by Ronald Reagan, offered anesty to
the people who were in the country illegally. In the
nineteen eighties, this country had something like two hundred million
people living in it and now we're at three hundred
and thirty. You think we've brought our infrastructure up to
the levels to deal with that kind of number. Now, Alicia,
(32:55):
is do you think that there is a world in
which there's bipartisan support during this Trump presidency for a
overhaul of the immigration system that includes the legal immigration system.
Speaker 11 (33:10):
The short answers, no, everybody's really really entrenched. The longer
answer is there there could be some wiggle room depending
on what is offered.
Speaker 14 (33:21):
Right.
Speaker 11 (33:21):
So, a lot of the argument has been for forty
odd years, Hey, we gave you amnesty in nineteen eighty six,
you promised enforcement, you never gave it to us.
Speaker 10 (33:32):
And so subsequent to nineteen eighty.
Speaker 11 (33:34):
Six, and that was an effort that started under the
Carter administration. What you saw is a real push on
enforcement only enforcement now and generosity later.
Speaker 10 (33:44):
And I think that remains the case.
Speaker 11 (33:46):
And obviously the voting public, this was a huge issue
in November people.
Speaker 10 (33:51):
You know, I've.
Speaker 11 (33:52):
Spoken to a lot of people immigration supporters from border
communities like El Paso, Texas, who said the community got
fed up. There were you know, thousands of people outside
of church in downtown El Paso at one point for
you know, days, weeks on end, it seemed like, and
it was a constant concern. New York, Chicago, Denver saw
(34:13):
these inflows, not necessarily natural inflows, right because of Texas
busing systems and sort of political machinations that moved folks
to various communities. But right now I don't see a
path in Congress because of the entrenchment I can see,
you know, I don't see a gang of eight for
those who are unfortunate to remember that period.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Tolliver.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, So Maurice Minnesota brings up an interesting point. It
says immigration increases competition for existing citizens and lowers wages.
I was wondering if we could talk about that, and
also another person comment to that it's not going to
be immigration that lowers wages.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
It's going to be automation. So maybe Zeke, we can
talk to you about that. What are your thoughts on
those comments?
Speaker 9 (34:56):
Yeah, again, I just to me, it's a bit dismay
how that is such a common belief because the evidence
so clearly, you know, debunks that right. For immigration to
lower wages, what has to be true is that immigrants arrive,
they work, they sit on their butts and don't spend
their paychecks, right, and the economy doesn't grow. It would
(35:17):
also have to be true that immigrants don't start businesses,
that they don't pay tax, that they don't contribute anything
other than just competing for a job. That is not
what happens. Also, immigrants don't want the same jobs as
native workers, and even if they work for the same
firm or in the same industry, they do different things.
For example, immigrants do things that don't require language proficiency
(35:37):
and someone you know, so you look at your restaurant,
what are immigrants doing? What are us born people doing?
That shows you kind of the division of labor. So
for all those reasons, you end up not having these
kinds of like wage reduction things that happen. I think
if we understood that immigrants are not competing with natives
in the labor force, but they complement them. Then all
of these other conversations we're having would be much easier
(35:59):
because the press isn't a zero sum premise. The premise
is there's an abundance and a win win, which is
actually what the evidence shows, right, It's not just a
wishful thinking thing.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Let's get to some calls. Jerome is in Fort Worth, Texas, Jerome,
what do you think about this.
Speaker 4 (36:15):
Either?
Speaker 19 (36:15):
So, coming from working fourteen years in landscaping and home renovation,
I worked rather closely with microworkers, even documented people, and
I've always been quite quite confused of why we don't
make the process to come here and work legally easier
(36:38):
in order to deter.
Speaker 12 (36:41):
Vibration.
Speaker 19 (36:41):
So if you make the system to where the cost
is reasonable for people who are coming here from low
witch countries, it's the application and processing is the real
cost to process that, And then from there there there's
less incentive to cross the border, riskyportation and so on
so forth. And then when they are here legally, they're
(37:03):
paying their taxes, and to touch on previously mentioned the
lower wages, they actually are here legally and they are
able to buy for the right to not be underpaid
and not potentially drive down those wages when they don't
have that leverage when they're here on documented to file
those complaints to the labor board.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Jerrem, can I just ask you one quick follow up question,
are you noticing any difference with your workers right now?
Given the crackdown that's going on on illegal immigration? Are
people showing up to work?
Speaker 19 (37:34):
I actually did transition over to nursing a few years ago,
so it has been a couple of years since. But
even on the tail end of the previous Trump administration,
I did hear either firsthand or because a lot of
the meer workers in the areas they tend to all communicate,
(37:55):
it did become a little bit harder to actually fill
the positions, not from so much of a you know,
can't you know, really, it was just hard to find
anybody to fill with us because they are hard work
and unfortunately, it was honestly tough to final systems that
are willing to take it for the way to provide it.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Well, thank you so much for calling. Let me get
to one other one, Ruben in Pennsylvania. Ruben, welcome to
the middle Go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 20 (38:24):
Hi, I think this topic was already in on, but
I want to kind of expand on it about how
difficult it has been made for legal immigrants to stay
in the country just based on the country you were
born in. You might be waiting in line ten, fifteen,
twenty years where your legally born child was born outside
the country but came in as a dependent to migrant
(38:46):
with you just get staged out. So say a kid
who came at two years old was legally in the country,
but just because of the country was born in or
his parents were born in, is have to wait eighteen years,
twenty years, and at eight years he has to make
a decision of getting under the same cycle of getting
a visa or going you know, going back to a
(39:08):
country which she doesn't know anything about because he spent
all the fear or her I spent all of their
life here in the US. So there's a lot of
brain drain that's happening because people are worthy of the
archaic system that it is, and since it's country based,
and their idea probably was that they don't want one
country or a few country people to have a lot
(39:28):
to come in a big, big chances, but still the
system is so old, so take in that sense, but
the people can't just come in, and people who are
coming legally are then forced to do things like find
another university, even if they're they have a legal visa,
but they actually didn't get picked up. So they find
a university, do a fake another master's degree, do a
(39:50):
cpt day, want just to stay in the country because
they've spent a lot of money trying to come here. Yeah,
so that's there are a lot of those things.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, Reuben, we've got it. Thank you very much for that.
And Alicia, you know, it makes me wonder how much
pressure is coming from the business community right now to
try to streamline things because of those last two callers
we just heard make the case that there's a brain
drain because it takes so long, it's so difficult for people,
and also, you know, in many cases it's just hard
(40:20):
to find workers to do things unless you're dealing with
an immigrant labor force that is dynamic and is coming in.
Speaker 10 (40:27):
Right I think there's a couple of things to play.
Speaker 11 (40:28):
So tech and sort of your your white collar industry
are pushing through through various organizations for more H one
B is a better H one B system.
Speaker 10 (40:38):
On the other side on sort of.
Speaker 11 (40:39):
A temporary worker program, you know, the H two AA
which is agriculture, and an H two B which is
seasonal non agriculture. Those were really aimed at Latin America.
They're aimed you know, there's some student visas in there too,
and some travel, but that doesn't address necessarily countries that
aren't historically migrant countries, which is one of the big
issues we've seen in the last couple of years. Right,
(41:01):
Venezuela's historically not a migrant country to the US. If
people migrate, they migrate to countries around South America. People
from all over the world have been coming in the
last several years. So it's hard to know if an
expansion of an H two A or H two B
would help stem that, or if it's a combination of
H two A and B expanding and offering sort of
(41:24):
more more options and then you know, reforms in the
asylum system as well, if that combo would do it.
But for sure H two A and H two B
are programs that business are clamoring for. Agriculture is a
big industry, right, but farm workers don't know farm workers
and cattlemen are not in the same category. Dairy farmers
(41:47):
don't get H two a's, So you have to sort
of maneuver through the system and find the right path.
And everybody's clamoring for more, and they want workers. States
have said, you know, we need temporary program, help us
bring people in, help us scream them and so on
and so forth.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
I was shocked when I was getting ready for this
show to discover the amount of letters of visas that
there are.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
There's way more than.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Just H two v's and H two a's and all
of those. Let's go to Travis and Laramie, Wyoming. Travis,
go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 14 (42:19):
We're a nation of immigrants. All of my friends, most
of which are very conservative, really agree with legal immigration.
We need more legal immigration. The process needs to be
simpler and more effective. We need to be able to
it sounds a little rough, but weed out the people
(42:40):
that we want to need, and first the people that
maybe aren't ready yet, and just make the process efficient.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
And do you have any idea of how you would
do that, Travis.
Speaker 14 (42:54):
The bureaucracy is so embedded and so strong. Each one
of the simple step takes nonsense. Sometimes years. So just
making those processes more efficient, getting rid of some of
the red tape, I mean, it shouldn't be that difficult
in theory.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Yeah, Travis, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Zica, do you have any thoughts on how that could
be made more efficient get rid of some of the
red tape?
Speaker 2 (43:19):
As he says, so.
Speaker 9 (43:22):
Many of them. I mean, I think, look here, here's
one that creates these interminable lines that are inefficient. In
nineteen ninety, the last time we reformed the system, we
decided that no single country could account for more than
seven percent of green cards.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Right.
Speaker 9 (43:37):
The problem is that when you have like India and Chinese, Filipino, Mexican,
there's huge lines for them, right, because there's there's millions
and millions of them waiting to come in versus say,
you know someone from a little country like like I
don't know, like Chile, right, you know that the line
is very short for Chilean's So it's very weird, right
that this this seven percent quota that we haven't changed
(43:58):
for thirty five years, creates these interminable lines, so that
someone from India literally has to wait one hundred and
ninety five years to get their green card, right, which
is which is an absolutely insane number. So that would
be a very easy one to eliminate. The other is
just increasing the quotas on the number of visas we allow.
Right when you only have eighty five thousand, h one
b's or sixty six thousand h two b's, you know,
(44:21):
and firms are demanding double, triple, quadruple that number. What
happens then is you have a lot of bureaucracy in
terms of how that's allocated, right, and we have these
inefficient lotteries, and so it's weird that we allocate visas
literally from a based on a roll of the dice,
like we determine which firms get workers by a roll
of the dice, and then with no sense of who
(44:42):
needs them more than the others. So I think, yeah,
eliminating those those quotas by country, the country quota, increasing
the numbers that we allow, and then increasing the direct
diversity of pathways because like you said, you know, a
dairy farmer has a totally different path than like a
fruit picker, even though they're doing very equivalent work. Right,
(45:03):
So that's what I mean.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Joe is calling from Boston, Massachusetts. Hi, Joe, We welcome
to the middle.
Speaker 12 (45:09):
Go ahead with your thoughts, a thank you for taking
my call. I just wanted to comment on a statement
that was made by one of your guests regarding statistics.
And depending on who's putting out this out the statistics,
they can be made to to read whatever that the
maker wants them to read. The fact fact that the
(45:30):
matter is that a huge swap of the construction industry
in the restaurant industry industry, both industries which I have
worked in most of my life, have been taken over
by immigrants. That is just the fact. If you walk
in any restaurant you will see nothing but but but
(45:51):
immigrants working there. If you go on a on a
on a construction site in the in the nineties early
to two thousand, creams used to have to take sheep
sheep walk and move them up to different levels of
the of the building. Now they have immigrants carry them
up on their backs for cheaper labor. So they are
(46:12):
absolutely taking American's job because they pay them less and
they can hold them to lower lower standards because they
know they don't have any rights. So all of these
stats that people are coming up with and put putting out,
this is why people are upset.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
So would you restrict the number of legal immigrants who
would be allowed into this country?
Speaker 12 (46:38):
Joe, I would not. I am not against immigration. I
am against legal immigration because that absolutely drives down wages.
I am. I am not saying that no one should
be allowed to come in. But when you have a
legal immigration people, companies take take take advantage of that
(47:02):
absolutely and they and they paid pay them less.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Okay, so thank you, thank you for calling, and uh,
we're running out of time here, but zeke, let me
let you respond to that with with this, I mean,
just it brings up a very important point. You can't
just talk about legal immigration because for many they say,
well the issue is this illegal immigration.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
And they merge them together.
Speaker 10 (47:27):
Yeah, I mean they do, right.
Speaker 9 (47:31):
The truth is, first of all, on the statistics point,
there's a difference between peer reviewed evidence and stuff that
like someone with a partisan interest puts out. I'm talking
about the peer reviewed evidence. The truth is like a
lot of the jobs that undocumented immigrants are doing, our
jobs that Americans will not do. I spend a lot
of time talking to people in the very same industries
(47:53):
that we're just mentioned, and they prefer to hire native
born people. It's just easier because they speak the language,
and for a lot of the other reasons, they just
cannot find the workers. And so again, if we increase
the pathways that are legal, those undocumented pathways will not
be necessary.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
Well, that is the time that we have this hour.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
I want to thank my guest See Hernandez, professor at
the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania and author
of the book The Truth About Immigration, and Bloomberg Immigration
reporter Alicia Caldwell.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Thanks so much to both of you.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
Thankks for having me.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
And don't Forget the Middle is available as a podcast
in partnership with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart Apple wherever
you listen to podcasts, and coming to your feed next
week an episode of our weekly podcast Extra One Thing
Trump Did, featuring CNN Chief media analyst Brian Stelter on
Trump's fights with the press, and next week we'll be
right back here as we approach the first one hundred
days of Trump's second presidency, we want to know what
(48:46):
you think so far.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
Oh, this is gonna be like a three hour show right.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
Well, as always, you can call in an eight four
four four middle. That's eight four four four six four
three three five three, or you can reach out at
listen to the middle dot com. You can also sign
up for our free weekly newsletter and find the sexiest
Middle t shirts and mugs.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Oh my god, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Well, thanks so much to our satellite radio listeners, our
podcast audience, and the more than four hundred and twenty
public radio stations making it possible for people across the
country to Listen to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
I'm Jeremy Hobson. I will talk to you next week.
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
organization striving to increase the sustainability of local journalism by
building connections between donors and news organizations. More information on
how you can support the Middle at listen toothemiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and
Tolliver we have some new listeners this week.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Yeah, welcome to the listeners of NHPR New Hampshire Public
Radio all across the Granite State, from Colebrook to Nashaua.
Speaker 2 (00:32):
All the way.
Speaker 4 (00:33):
I didn't have to look up that pronunciation.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
No, No, you should know that one.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
And of course it's a very important state every four
years in the primary process in terms of picking who
the presidential nominees will be. In fact, New Hampshire was
very important to President Trump's campaign the first time when
he won the primary back in twenty sixteen and told
voters he'd fixed the state's drug problems by tightening the border.
Speaker 5 (00:55):
We're going to have strong, incredible borders, and people are
going We're going to come into our country, but they're
going to come into our country legally.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
They're going to come in legally.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
So that last part is our focus this hour. People
who are coming into the United States legally. About two
point six million people did so in twenty twenty two,
far outpacing unauthorized entries, and more than eight hundred thousand
immigrants became US citizens last year. But we know that
process is slow and inefficient. So what can be done
(01:27):
to improve legal immigration in this country?
Speaker 2 (01:30):
That's our question.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
We want to hear from you at eight four to
four for middle that's eight four four four six four
three three five three.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
We will get to that in just a moment.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
But first, last week we asked you whether or not
America is over medicated. Here are some of the comments
we got after the show.
Speaker 6 (01:45):
Hi, my name is Susie Colin from Denver, Colorado. As
a very fortunate, very healthy sixty one year old, I
think that there are a lot of Americans that are
just looking for a quick fix, that don't want to
put in the work and have a health for your life.
Speaker 7 (02:00):
That My name is Jonathan Carrol. I live in Phoenix, Arizona.
I was diagnosed with ADHD. My mother refused to give
me medication. I suffered greatly from it. I failed out
of school. I felt those stupid I had nothing but issues.
I was later rediagnosed when I was older, and are
now on medication and feel like I can actually do
(02:21):
things again.
Speaker 8 (02:22):
Hello, my name is Deborah. I'm calling from clare Water, Florida.
Every single person has a combination of their own unique genetics,
so there's a virtual infinite range of whether or not
we need medication.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
You can hear that entire episode on our podcast in
partnership with iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever
you listen to podcasts. So now to our topic this hour,
what can we do to improve legal immigration? Tolliver the
phone number please.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
It's eight four four four a middle. That's eight four
four four six four three three five three. You can
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com.
You can also comment on our live stream on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram,
and Twitch.
Speaker 4 (03:04):
Reach out on manning all the social media. Okay, you
get you on.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Air all of them. Let's meet our panels.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
Ze Carnandez is a professor at the Wharton School at
the University of Pennsylvania. His book is called The Truth
About Immigration zee Crnandez, welcome to the.
Speaker 9 (03:16):
Middle thanks so much for having me on.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
And Alicia Caldwell joins us as well. She covers immigration
for Bloomberg. Alicia, welcome to.
Speaker 10 (03:23):
You appreciate it.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
So before we go to the phones, Alicia just set
the stage for us. How difficult is it for someone
right now in twenty twenty five to get a visa,
a green card, or US citizenship.
Speaker 11 (03:37):
Incredibly, when you start with a visa, you know there's
there's narrow categories. There's lots of categories, but they're somewhat narrow, right,
So if you are, say a high skilled worker, there's
only sixty five thousand, h one B visas and they're
issued by lottery. So a company hires you and you
are overseas in whichever country you pick, right, you have
(03:59):
a a real long shot that your company is going
to be selected and that you will be the person
that they hire for that job. Even if you've gone
to school here, you know, obviously there's there's paths for
training in the United States. Once you've gone to school
here and you've you've graduated with a US degree or
a graduate degree. But the days of you know, staple
a green card to the diploma are over. I mean
(04:22):
it never really existed. But even that push has long
since passed.
Speaker 10 (04:25):
There's a push and.
Speaker 11 (04:26):
Pull over whether or not the sixty five thousand caps
should be expanded or shrunk. Industry would tell you it
needs to be expanded and refined again. You know, it's
a lottery system at this point. So everybody enters, every
business enters that wants to sponsor an employee, and then
the winners are just that, they're they're winners, some you know,
(04:46):
bigger than others. But it's it's incredibly difficult, and once
you're here, your process is really long, depending on where
you're from. If you're from India, you may never get
a green card line.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
There's so many people from India that want to But
zekrant is when you look at the numbers. Overall, around
fifty million people in the US are foreign born immigrants.
That is way higher than the next highest, which is
Germany around sixteen million. We've been bringing in a lot
more immigrants than other countries. What is wrong in your
(05:17):
view with our legal immigration system?
Speaker 9 (05:21):
Well, where to even start, right, But I think one
place to start is the last time we updated that
system in terms of the number and types of visas
we allow was nineteen ninety, right, so it's been thirty
five years.
Speaker 12 (05:33):
Right.
Speaker 9 (05:34):
Our economy is different, it's twice it's more than twice
as large as it was back then. Our demographic profile
is very different. And so if you look right now,
immigrants are just above fourteen percent of our population, which
is you know, if you look at the long arc
of American history, that's just about normal. It's what it
was about one hundred years ago. But back then our
(05:54):
demographic profile was very different, right, And so we don't
issue enough visas, enough legal visas.
Speaker 12 (06:02):
Right.
Speaker 9 (06:02):
So Alisha gave the example of the H one B.
If you look at our green card system, we've been
issuing a million Green cards a year since nineteen ninety,
but we need a lot more of them, given our
demographic profile and the size of our economy, the variety
of our economy. The other thing that's wrong is that
we really have only two or three major pathway centry.
Speaker 4 (06:23):
Right.
Speaker 9 (06:23):
More than two thirds of our green cards go to
family reunification immigrants people rejoining their families. Only one hundred
and forty thousand are Green cards sponsored by an employer, Right,
I mean the state of Pennsylvania where I live alone,
could use all of those every year. Right, Of those
one hundred and forty thousand, only five thousand go to
people without a college degree who do essential work in
(06:45):
all kinds of industries. And so the system is so decrepit,
so out of date, and so much smaller than it
needs to be that you know, that's why you get
these like incredibly long lines that Alisha referred. So we
got to make it bigger and more varied.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So what are the politics of it right now? Does
the Trump administration want to make it easier for people
to come in legally, whether they are working in high
skilled jobs or in agriculture for that.
Speaker 11 (07:10):
Matter, sort of is the short answer. The longer answer
is it's complicated. Elon Musk wants a ton more H
ONEB visus other folks don't, And so there's this opposition
and this conflict of how do you expand the market
share for foreign workers. Most people agree we need more
(07:31):
foreign labor. As Zeke said, you know, the foreign born
population in the US is only about fourteen percent, and
it's been static for I think close to one hundred years,
so you're not really growing at that but what you're
seeing as an expansion of arrivals or you had in
the last several years. Now those folks are by and
large coming across the border illegally, but then sort of
(07:52):
sitting into a gray area right there. Asylum seekers, they
secure GPS after their arrival, they were humane arrian parole.
Those folks get work permits often sometimes it takes a
long time if you're you know, depending on your circumstances.
But in twenty twenty two, for instance, new arrivals accounted
for one point one million new work authorizations. So those
(08:13):
are people at every level of the economy, from agriculture,
but you don't need a visa in that case, right
So that's sort of a built in faucet of people,
if you will. That faucet that's bigot has turned off entirely.
So right now you have almost no illegal migration into
the United States, which is the president's goal. We're only
about seven thousand arrests at the southwest border in March.
Speaker 10 (08:36):
He wants zero.
Speaker 11 (08:38):
But what that also means is you don't have any
new labor coming in, and those other legal pathways are
narrowing dramatically. We're seeing, for instance, green card holders and
visa holders being taken into immigration custody, their visas revoked,
student visas in particular, a couple of green card holders
either based on their activity that the government has deemed,
(08:59):
you know, incompass with the United States foreign policy or
other approaches. But we're seeing that crackdown sort of expansively moving, right,
So all the legal pathways that we're there as well narrowing.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
And zeke, I guess the people that Alicia is talking
about who would say we don't need to make this
a smoother process would be people like Steve Bannon, who
would say any worker that's coming in is taking away
a job from an American worker. You argue in your
book that that is not the case at all.
Speaker 9 (09:29):
Yeah, and it's not just me making the argument. If
you look at the empirical evidence, you look at the
good peer reviewed evidence that is very very apparent. Okay,
immigrants do not take jobs from native workers, whether skilled
or unskilled. There's a lot of reasons for that. But
the simplest way I can put it is as follows.
When you look at the economic evidence, immigrants bring five
(09:49):
critical inputs into the economy. They bring their talent or labor,
they bring investment, they bring innovation, they consume goods and services,
and they pay taxes.
Speaker 4 (09:59):
Right.
Speaker 9 (10:00):
These are critical inputs for economic growth that make the
economic pie bigger and more diversified, which means that there's
more jobs for everyone to go around.
Speaker 13 (10:08):
Right.
Speaker 9 (10:08):
Immigrants would only take away jobs from natives if all
they did was arrive and take jobs, but not bring
any of the other four things that I talked about,
because then the economic pie would stay fixed. But that's
not what happens, right, which is why at the local
level you talk to any mayor, governor or chamber of commerce,
the one number one thing that they're desperate for are workers.
And our only source of new workers is really immigration.
Speaker 13 (10:31):
Right.
Speaker 9 (10:32):
Pretty much all the growth and new workers in this
economy in the last several years has come from immigration.
It has not come from natural growth because we're not
having any. So that claim is simply incorrect. It's empirically,
verifiably incorrect.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
And yet it's even made it to South Park where
they're saying, you know, they took our jobs. It's like
a line, but you're.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Saying that's wrong.
Speaker 9 (10:53):
Yeah, yeah. And I also, if you wouldn't mind just
giving me thirty seconds. To add something to what Alicia
said is that I I think often we make the
mistake of separating the legal immigration system from what's happening
with the undocumented or illegal system. The truth is that
the only solution to reduce the undocumented immigrant population is
to make more legal pathways available. Those are perfect substitutes.
Speaker 12 (11:17):
Right.
Speaker 9 (11:17):
Why do we have so much undocumented immigration because paths
don't exist or so outrageously long that our economy ends
up filling them by accepting undocumented workers.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Tolliver.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Alisha mentioned the lottery system for the H one V
visa and of course people that are in that lottery
would have a seventy five percent chance of being rejected.
Speaker 14 (11:39):
Wow.
Speaker 12 (11:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (11:40):
And during the presidential campaign, President Trump went on the
All In podcast and said he wanted to change that.
Speaker 5 (11:46):
What I want to do and what I will do
is you graduate from a college, I think you should
get automatically as part of your diploma, a green card
to be able to stay in this country. And that
includes junior colleges too. Anybody graduates from a college, you
go in there for two years or four years. If
you graduate or you get a doctorate degree from college,
you should be able to stay in this country.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Important to note that Trump said in that interview that
he wanted to start doing that on day one of
his presidency.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
It has not happened yet.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
Ooh, TikTok. We're waiting.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
We'll be right back with more of the Middle. This
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the Middle.
This hour, we're asking you how can we improve legal
immigration tolliver? What is the number to call in?
Speaker 3 (12:38):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
I'm joined by Bloomberg immigration reporter Alicia Caldwell and University
of Pennsylvania professor ze Hernandez. And the phones are lighting up.
So let's go to Barriicette in Atlanta, Georgia. Barriicett, Welcome
to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
What do you think?
Speaker 15 (12:59):
Well, I think, you know, the lottery system is really great,
but I think that needs even to be more streamlined.
In my view, I think there's a lot of randomness
in it. And with that what I mean, and I
think you could really enhance that by really allowing to
see closer to the hr Pisa, where you really look
at the academics, the people that are coming into this country.
(13:22):
I think they eventually end up becoming through job creators,
drivers of industry, and I think that has to be
looked from that perspective when you give immigration rights to people,
so that way, really the return of investment is huge
for the country as a whole and for the individual
that might otherwise not have had that opportunity in the
(13:43):
country that is oppressing them. So I think they wouldn't
win in that way.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
So I mean, have for you yourself Barricket gone through
the immigration system in this country.
Speaker 15 (13:53):
Yeah, I did. I was lucky enough to come in
with my father right, so he was self started at
his own business and Africa and at the time he
was able to be able to grow as much as
he wanted. There was a lot of extreme policy and
this was more an Ethiopian in each other there was
(14:14):
a lot of civil war. So the only way he
could move was to leave the country, and he left,
and eventually we all came into this country. But I'm
saying that I think eventually all of us, even if
he was a lot, myself or my brother, we've done well.
We went to school here, and we've gone through the
academics rigor that not really that one used to do.
(14:37):
And we all make more than you know, six figures
income or each one of us. So we basically contribute
to the country. And I don't necessarily think we're taken
jobs from the country. I think out of contribution is
probably more to the country that we are serving as
our own country right now, which is the US. And
I literally believe this is my country right now and
my view.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Berik, thank you very much for that. Z Carnandez your
thoughts on that personal story.
Speaker 9 (15:04):
Yeah, I mean that's the story of immigrants of all classes, right,
and they don't you know, they definitely come and they
contribute all of these things. I think what one part
of the story that I think it's Barricad's story illustrates
is that actually the children of immigrants do very very
well in this country, right. They earn very well. That
means they're paying taxes, that means you know, many of
(15:26):
them are starting businesses at very high rates, and so
I think, you know, Barrikat's story is a story of
immigrants of all types throughout all US history.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
There's nothing to fear there, Alicia.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
We were recently in Denver and did a podcast about
how deportations are playing out there, and one of the
things we heard is that people who are here legally
are worried that they're going to be caught up in
a raid and deported.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
And we just heard the story the other day of
the man.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
In Maryland who was here legally, who the Trump administration
says was accidentally deported to that prison in El Salvador.
How is the crackdown on illegal immigrants affecting people in
this country who are following the laws.
Speaker 11 (16:06):
So that's where it gets complicated, because nobody quite knows
who may be of target. Because again, once you've arrived,
and you know, the US government has said, hey, we
understand you're here, they've processed you. They've opted in many
cases over the last several years to release people and
say hey, come back to court at at a different date.
We can't detain you, we don't have the space, and
(16:27):
so on and so now you're in legal limbo. You're
not here legally, but you're definitely not here illegally. And
as I said, you know, most of those folks have
illegal process underway. They're going to court, they'll get a
work permit, if they're if they've applied for asylum or
some other benefit, you know, if temporary protected status or.
Speaker 10 (16:44):
What have you.
Speaker 11 (16:46):
And historically those processes do protect a migrant from removal.
That process needs to play out, be it in the
immigration court or through the temporary protected status program. There's
an effort to get rid of all of that. Temporary
protected statuses is you know, threatened to be canceled, at
(17:06):
least for several countries, including Venezuela. A federal court has
blocked that for now, but the administration has made clear
they have no intention if they're allowed to renew that
process or to renew those protections for those in the
immigration court system.
Speaker 10 (17:21):
We don't know what's going to happen.
Speaker 11 (17:22):
So you know, I've been speaking to people all over
the country, just books to a Venezuelan family that sort
of fits all of these puzzle pieces, right. They have
TPS for some of the family. They're all applying for asylum.
They're from Venezuela, which is a primary target country right now,
so they're genuinely concerned sort of on a daily basis
as they go to work with their work permits and
(17:43):
will they be arrested at some point They don't know.
We don't know, frankly, because the administration is fanning out
and their philosophy is anybody in the country without authorization
with that a visa without a sort of permanency or
semi permanency is is sort of fair game that's to
be determined in the courts as as to you know,
what authorizes status and so on. But we're seeing that expansion,
(18:05):
so people at every level of the immigration system are worried.
You know, I've talked to Green card holders who are
concerned about leaving the country. One friend said, you know,
we're not going to go to Italy this summer because
we just don't know what's next on the horizon, so
we'd rather just stay domestic. So you're seeing some of
those that calculus change and decision making change at again,
(18:28):
every level of the immigration system.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Let's get to another called Dan is in Kansas City, Missouri. Dan,
how could we improve the legal immigration system in your view.
Speaker 16 (18:39):
Good evening. I mean my view at the best improvement
for right now would be a complete, across the board
immigration moratorium. You know, from all parts of the world.
Both of the guests have been emphasizing the need for industry,
about cheap labor and the economic benefits of immigration, which
(19:00):
is important. But man does not live by bread alone.
We need to make sure that we have a strong
social fabric, a cohesive national identity, and a sense of
shared values and destiny. And we've absorbed a lot of
foreigners over the last five years, twenty years, thirty years,
(19:21):
and I think that we really need to kind of
digest that. And I mean Japan, for example, has a
very restrictive immigration system. They're aging and their GDP is lower,
and they could change that by importing, you know, millions
of foreign people, but then it wouldn't be Japanese Japan anymore.
(19:42):
So I think that you know, economic considerations aside that
there are intangible things that are more important than money.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
And you okay that interesting point. Dan, Thank you very
much for that. Zeke your response to Dan. There there
are obviously a lot of people in this country who
agree with what Dan just had to say there.
Speaker 9 (20:02):
Yeah, yeah, I've heard that point many times. Dan thinks,
thanks for calling in. Look, I don't know much about you, Dan,
and I'm going to assume that your ancestors were immigrant
at some point in the past. And you know, it's
interesting because one hundred years ago, the same argument was
made for closing the borders to Italian, Southern and Eastern
Europeans Asians immigrants who were you know, the Irish, right,
(20:27):
So every every wave of immigration raises that same concern
of you know, we need to make sure that we
stay socially cohesive, that we preserve what is essential about
American identity. And you know, the same concerns are being
expressed today. And some people believe that somehow the immigrants
of the past assimilate, you know, better, assimilated better than
(20:47):
the immigrants today. What I can tell Dan is that
when you look at the evidence, the immigrants right now
are assimilating at the exact same rate and just as
successfully as Dan's ancestors, and they do very well in
adopting American values, American culture. There there is you know,
from the empirical evidence, we don't have cohesion problems, right,
(21:09):
Immigrants do very well they're very patriotic, they love the constitution,
they adopt political values that are very similar to whatever
community they settle in. So you know, immigrants, of course
bring new things. But the evidence doesn't support that concern.
And I would say what's interesting about the example of
Japan that Dan gave is that Japan is desperately trying
(21:30):
to implement an immigration system for the very reasons that
it that it is really really struggling. That's true of
South Korea and many other so called cohesive or homogeneous countries.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
So that's a.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Lot of a lot of financial woes for a long time,
in large part because of the population decline that's going
on there. Tolliver what is coming in online?
Speaker 3 (21:53):
So this is Charles Okay, he wrote six paragraphs and
put in one sentence it's too expensive for American parents
who have a child overseas to make that child a citizen.
Daniels from San Simeon says, an immigrant is taking our jobs.
His name is Elon Leslie from Minnesota. Leslie from the
Great State of Minnesota says advocates for more immigration assume
(22:13):
that the US should embrace unlimited population growth. Ecosystems cannot
support unlimited population growth. I'm kind of curious what you
all think about that. Is there sort of like a
limit where we sort of where resources get too thin
or no, Alicia.
Speaker 10 (22:30):
Dude, it's that's an interesting question.
Speaker 11 (22:32):
You know, I haven't met anybody in my twenty years
of covering the border and immigration ritt large in the US,
who who says, you know everybody and anybody, let's just
sort of free for all. Now, we did have a
free for all, you know. I'm not specifically of immigrant stock,
if you will, but my family came over, you know,
(22:52):
in the early nineteen hundreds when there was no process literally,
you know, great granddad got on a boat with his brother,
that sort of thing. So that that has changed obviously
dramatically over the last century.
Speaker 10 (23:04):
And again, I've not.
Speaker 11 (23:05):
Met anybody who says, you know anybody and everybody. There
are processes, and you know, one of the hang ups
that many administrations have faced, particularly since the middle of
the Obama administration, is this appeal for asylum. And the
law is currently notwithstanding some regulation changes. However, one gets
(23:28):
to the United States, they can ask for asylum. There's
one exception to that, and that's if you've come from
Canada and you are not a Canadian national, or you
go from the US to Canada and you're not a
US national, you have to ask for asylum in the
first country you were in, meaning Canada or the United States.
That's the only third safe country agreement the US has.
But otherwise, anyone who gets to the United States under
(23:53):
whatever means they got here, they're allowed to ask for asylum.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Now there's even now in the Trump administration, you can.
Speaker 4 (23:59):
Still do that.
Speaker 11 (24:01):
Well, no, because there was a policy change under President Biden.
There was, you know, legislation to codify this, it had
bipartisan support. President Trump said he didn't like it ultimately,
and so the bill failed. So President Biden implemented a
policy change and said no one who comes or generally speaking,
no one who comes between ports of entry crosses the
(24:22):
border illegally is going to be considered eligible for asylum.
So they created a path go to the ports of entry.
Now it's interesting hearing the Biden or the excuse me,
the Trump administration shut that off as well. They've closed
access to to ports. Because I covered the Trump administration
in their first tour of the White House, and they
were very specific to say go to the port of
(24:44):
entry if you would like to seek asylum. That's they
deemed that the legal path.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
To do so.
Speaker 11 (24:50):
And so you've got all these different avenues. But the
law is that you can apply for asylum. The rule
administratively is that you can't. So right now now, no
one under generally speaking, is allowed to ask for asylum
in the United States, either at the border or in
advance the refugee program, which effectively think of it as
(25:12):
a parallel to asylum, but you're invited as.
Speaker 10 (25:15):
Opposed to you show up. That is also shut down
for now.
Speaker 11 (25:18):
So any path one had for asylum is now shut down.
And we're seeing a result of that, seven thousand apprehensions
in a month. That's never happened that anyone can remember.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
Asylum a big part of the legal immigration system. Let's
go to Justin, who's in Denver, Colorado. Hi, Justin, Welcome
to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 13 (25:38):
Thank you so much for covering the topic. It's great
to hear. I've been to Kenya a few times and
they easily issued me a tourist visa, but I cannot
get even a tourist visa from our close friends Kenyon,
who wants to come to the States. And we've also
found that you can't get a work visa unless you're
from certain countries and that pretty much excludes the entire
(25:59):
continent of Africa. To my proposal to improve it, as
I've said, well, let's put an ankle monitor on anybody
who wants to visit our country, make it easier from
the visit.
Speaker 14 (26:08):
But they're so.
Speaker 13 (26:09):
Afraid that they may immigrate. And maybe that's a silly idea,
but they it was very very rude process. How they
it was like a two year process to get an
interviewed for a tourist visa and.
Speaker 12 (26:19):
He was not.
Speaker 13 (26:20):
I said, well, then why don't we just treat everyone
like a criminal and have an ankle monitor on them,
and that way we can ensure that they don't stay.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
Thank you all very much for seeing Thank you justin Zeke.
What do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (26:32):
I mean, I don't know that i'd want to go
visit a country that made me put an ankle monitor.
Speaker 9 (26:36):
On but yeah, you know, I have never heard that, right,
so the proposal catches me a little bit off guard.
I would say that one, our tourist system is not
our immigration system, right, we don't think of tourism as immigration.
But yeah, I think that would have all kinds of
constitutional challenges, right, because our constitution does grant rights to
(26:58):
anyone who is on a mare and soil, even if
they're you know, visiting or or on temporary visits. Now,
you know, can can we do better to ensure that
people are following the law?
Speaker 8 (27:10):
I think?
Speaker 9 (27:11):
I think I generally think that's that's a good principle
that we can agree on. I don't know about the
ankle monitor though.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Let's go to Yara, who's in Madison, Wisconsin, Hyyara, what
do you think?
Speaker 13 (27:25):
Hi?
Speaker 17 (27:27):
Yes, yes, I was thinking along the lines of the
barriers that they are in immigration. I mean, speaking for
myself and for many people who I know who went
through the process, it is really something with so many
hoops and so many challenges that I think that a
lot of people who are perfectly qualified and that would
be incredible where con citizens just get lost in the
(27:49):
leads and as a result of all this barriers kind
of fell through the crack.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
So what would you do about it?
Speaker 18 (27:56):
I think that one of the things that I would propose,
and at least in this current administration, as reducing the
requirements and kind of become that process more expert edged
and clear. I mean, community outreach has been a huge
part of my journey towards becoming a citizenship a citizen
and like having people in the communities that can help
(28:19):
navigate that process is a huge thing that I think
to be implemented all around.
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah, yaha, thank you very much, Alicia.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I will say whenever we do a story, whenever I've
done a story about immigrants, there is always the group
that helps assimilate people in any community in this country.
Speaker 12 (28:38):
Yeah.
Speaker 10 (28:38):
Absolutely.
Speaker 11 (28:39):
You know you're going to find church groups, other social
network groups that just you know, go out of their
way to help people assimilate. We've seen that with the
Uniting for Ukraine program, which was basically a humanitarian sponsorship.
If you could find somebody in the United States who
would sponsor you and vouch for your finances, if you
will that they would take care of you and help
(28:59):
you get old, you could come to the United States
under this humanitarian program. Biden administration expanded that to Cuba, Nicaragua, Haiti,
and Venezuela, and many of the numbers of people from
those countries crossing the border illicitly dropped and the Biden
administration would tell you, Hey, this is this is.
Speaker 10 (29:18):
How we do it.
Speaker 11 (29:19):
We create a legal pathway and people won't go through
the jungles and they won't take these treacherous routes. You know,
that's under fire right now from the Trump administration. But yeah,
there's all kinds of red tape's. It is complicated to
become a resident. It's complicated to become a citizen.
Speaker 1 (29:37):
And by the way, to become a citizen, Tolliver, you
have to pass a civics test, which many native born
Americans might have a hard time with.
Speaker 6 (29:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 12 (29:46):
Me.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
You know, like when they asked who was president during
World War One? Listeners were waiting who was president? Turns
out it was Jay Leno. He actually had some fun
with this back when he was hosting the Tonight Show.
Speaker 16 (29:58):
What country did we fight in the Revolutiontionary War France?
What does the Emancipation Proclamation mean?
Speaker 4 (30:05):
What did it do?
Speaker 11 (30:11):
The amanfimation? Approximation, the Emancipation Proclamation?
Speaker 8 (30:16):
What did it do?
Speaker 6 (30:17):
I don't know.
Speaker 10 (30:18):
You've heard of it.
Speaker 11 (30:18):
I have heard of it.
Speaker 10 (30:20):
Free the slave, Yes, that's what.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
By the way, the answer to that World War One
question was Woodrow Wilson, not Jay Leno.
Speaker 4 (30:28):
The promancimation clation.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, that one? What did that one do? Again? Right,
We'll be right back with more of your calls on
the Middle. This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
In this hour, we're asking you, uh, what you would
do to improve legal immigration in this country. You can
call us at eight four four four Middle that's eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can reach out and listen to the Middle dot com.
My guests are University of Pennsylvania professor ze Crnandez and
Bloomberg Immigration reporter Alicia Caledwell. Uh, and before we go
back to the phones, Zeke, you, as we say, make
(31:01):
the case that immigrants are net positive contributors to society.
But one of the things we've seen in this country
and in other countries around the world, is that if
too many come in too fast, there is a political backlash.
How do you find the right balance, the right pace,
the right mix of immigrants to come into a country
like the United States.
Speaker 9 (31:21):
Yeah, I mean, look, anyone who tells you what the
right rate or the right number is is lying to you, right.
The truth is, we don't know for sure, but I
think I think it's useful to separate immigrants and what
they do, and in fact that they do a lot
of good. But also what's interesting when you look at
the data is that people like immigrants, right when they
talk about their immigrant neighbors, the people that they are
(31:42):
exposed to, they like them. They're not threatened by them.
And then most of what's wrong is the immigration system,
which is what we're talking about. And so a lot
of it happens when immigrants, to any immigrants arrive to
one flash point, right, which is usually a system problem,
or when we don't have a way to kind of
distribute them, you know, kind of more evenly, so to speak.
(32:03):
And a lot of that is less about immigration, but
it's a lot about things like how we build infrastructure.
So it turns out that like the housing crisis and
the problem of building infrastructure we have is not independent
of people's opinions about immigration. Right, If people feel like
it's crowded, they're upset, But it's not really about immigrants.
It's just about the crowding. And so I would say
a lot of it has to do with that how
(32:23):
we build infrastructure, housing, those kinds of things, rather than
the foreign people themselves if that.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
Meant And as you said, the last time we had
real immigration reform was decades ago.
Speaker 2 (32:34):
And if you look back to.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
The immigration reform built in the nineteen eighties, which offered
amnesty to the people by Ronald Reagan, offered anesty to
the people who were in the country illegally. In the
nineteen eighties, this country had something like two hundred million
people living in it and now we're at three hundred
and thirty. You think we've brought our infrastructure up to
the levels to deal with that kind of number. Now, Alicia,
(32:55):
is do you think that there is a world in
which there's bipartisan support during this Trump presidency for a
overhaul of the immigration system that includes the legal immigration system.
Speaker 11 (33:10):
The short answers, no, everybody's really really entrenched. The longer
answer is there there could be some wiggle room depending
on what is offered.
Speaker 14 (33:21):
Right.
Speaker 11 (33:21):
So, a lot of the argument has been for forty
odd years, Hey, we gave you amnesty in nineteen eighty six,
you promised enforcement, you never gave it to us.
Speaker 10 (33:32):
And so subsequent to nineteen eighty.
Speaker 11 (33:34):
Six, and that was an effort that started under the
Carter administration. What you saw is a real push on
enforcement only enforcement now and generosity later.
Speaker 10 (33:44):
And I think that remains the case.
Speaker 11 (33:46):
And obviously the voting public, this was a huge issue
in November people.
Speaker 10 (33:51):
You know, I've.
Speaker 11 (33:52):
Spoken to a lot of people immigration supporters from border
communities like El Paso, Texas, who said the community got
fed up. There were you know, thousands of people outside
of church in downtown El Paso at one point for
you know, days, weeks on end, it seemed like, and
it was a constant concern. New York, Chicago, Denver saw
(34:13):
these inflows, not necessarily natural inflows, right because of Texas
busing systems and sort of political machinations that moved folks
to various communities. But right now I don't see a
path in Congress because of the entrenchment I can see,
you know, I don't see a gang of eight for
those who are unfortunate to remember that period.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Tolliver.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Yeah, So Maurice Minnesota brings up an interesting point. It
says immigration increases competition for existing citizens and lowers wages.
I was wondering if we could talk about that, and
also another person comment to that it's not going to
be immigration that lowers wages.
Speaker 4 (34:50):
It's going to be automation. So maybe Zeke, we can
talk to you about that. What are your thoughts on
those comments?
Speaker 9 (34:56):
Yeah, again, I just to me, it's a bit dismay
how that is such a common belief because the evidence
so clearly, you know, debunks that right. For immigration to
lower wages, what has to be true is that immigrants arrive,
they work, they sit on their butts and don't spend
their paychecks, right, and the economy doesn't grow. It would
(35:17):
also have to be true that immigrants don't start businesses,
that they don't pay tax, that they don't contribute anything
other than just competing for a job. That is not
what happens. Also, immigrants don't want the same jobs as
native workers, and even if they work for the same
firm or in the same industry, they do different things.
For example, immigrants do things that don't require language proficiency
(35:37):
and someone you know, so you look at your restaurant,
what are immigrants doing? What are us born people doing?
That shows you kind of the division of labor. So
for all those reasons, you end up not having these
kinds of like wage reduction things that happen. I think
if we understood that immigrants are not competing with natives
in the labor force, but they complement them. Then all
of these other conversations we're having would be much easier
(35:59):
because the press isn't a zero sum premise. The premise
is there's an abundance and a win win, which is
actually what the evidence shows, right, It's not just a
wishful thinking thing.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Let's get to some calls. Jerome is in Fort Worth, Texas, Jerome,
what do you think about this.
Speaker 4 (36:15):
Either?
Speaker 19 (36:15):
So, coming from working fourteen years in landscaping and home renovation,
I worked rather closely with microworkers, even documented people, and
I've always been quite quite confused of why we don't
make the process to come here and work legally easier
(36:38):
in order to deter.
Speaker 12 (36:41):
Vibration.
Speaker 19 (36:41):
So if you make the system to where the cost
is reasonable for people who are coming here from low
witch countries, it's the application and processing is the real
cost to process that, And then from there there there's
less incentive to cross the border, riskyportation and so on
so forth. And then when they are here legally, they're
(37:03):
paying their taxes, and to touch on previously mentioned the
lower wages, they actually are here legally and they are
able to buy for the right to not be underpaid
and not potentially drive down those wages when they don't
have that leverage when they're here on documented to file
those complaints to the labor board.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Jerrem, can I just ask you one quick follow up question,
are you noticing any difference with your workers right now?
Given the crackdown that's going on on illegal immigration? Are
people showing up to work?
Speaker 19 (37:34):
I actually did transition over to nursing a few years ago,
so it has been a couple of years since. But
even on the tail end of the previous Trump administration,
I did hear either firsthand or because a lot of
the meer workers in the areas they tend to all communicate,
(37:55):
it did become a little bit harder to actually fill
the positions, not from so much of a you know,
can't you know, really, it was just hard to find
anybody to fill with us because they are hard work
and unfortunately, it was honestly tough to final systems that
are willing to take it for the way to provide it.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Well, thank you so much for calling. Let me get
to one other one, Ruben in Pennsylvania. Ruben, welcome to
the middle Go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 20 (38:24):
Hi, I think this topic was already in on, but
I want to kind of expand on it about how
difficult it has been made for legal immigrants to stay
in the country just based on the country you were
born in. You might be waiting in line ten, fifteen,
twenty years where your legally born child was born outside
the country but came in as a dependent to migrant
(38:46):
with you just get staged out. So say a kid
who came at two years old was legally in the country,
but just because of the country was born in or
his parents were born in, is have to wait eighteen years,
twenty years, and at eight years he has to make
a decision of getting under the same cycle of getting
a visa or going you know, going back to a
(39:08):
country which she doesn't know anything about because he spent
all the fear or her I spent all of their
life here in the US. So there's a lot of
brain drain that's happening because people are worthy of the
archaic system that it is, and since it's country based,
and their idea probably was that they don't want one
country or a few country people to have a lot
(39:28):
to come in a big, big chances, but still the
system is so old, so take in that sense, but
the people can't just come in, and people who are
coming legally are then forced to do things like find
another university, even if they're they have a legal visa,
but they actually didn't get picked up. So they find
a university, do a fake another master's degree, do a
(39:50):
cpt day, want just to stay in the country because
they've spent a lot of money trying to come here. Yeah,
so that's there are a lot of those things.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, Reuben, we've got it. Thank you very much for that.
And Alicia, you know, it makes me wonder how much
pressure is coming from the business community right now to
try to streamline things because of those last two callers
we just heard make the case that there's a brain
drain because it takes so long, it's so difficult for people,
and also, you know, in many cases it's just hard
(40:20):
to find workers to do things unless you're dealing with
an immigrant labor force that is dynamic and is coming in.
Speaker 10 (40:27):
Right I think there's a couple of things to play.
Speaker 11 (40:28):
So tech and sort of your your white collar industry
are pushing through through various organizations for more H one
B is a better H one B system.
Speaker 10 (40:38):
On the other side on sort of.
Speaker 11 (40:39):
A temporary worker program, you know, the H two AA
which is agriculture, and an H two B which is
seasonal non agriculture. Those were really aimed at Latin America.
They're aimed you know, there's some student visas in there too,
and some travel, but that doesn't address necessarily countries that
aren't historically migrant countries, which is one of the big
issues we've seen in the last couple of years. Right,
(41:01):
Venezuela's historically not a migrant country to the US. If
people migrate, they migrate to countries around South America. People
from all over the world have been coming in the
last several years. So it's hard to know if an
expansion of an H two A or H two B
would help stem that, or if it's a combination of
H two A and B expanding and offering sort of
(41:24):
more more options and then you know, reforms in the
asylum system as well, if that combo would do it.
But for sure H two A and H two B
are programs that business are clamoring for. Agriculture is a
big industry, right, but farm workers don't know farm workers
and cattlemen are not in the same category. Dairy farmers
(41:47):
don't get H two a's, So you have to sort
of maneuver through the system and find the right path.
And everybody's clamoring for more, and they want workers. States
have said, you know, we need temporary program, help us
bring people in, help us scream them and so on
and so forth.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
I was shocked when I was getting ready for this
show to discover the amount of letters of visas that
there are.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
There's way more than.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
Just H two v's and H two a's and all
of those. Let's go to Travis and Laramie, Wyoming. Travis,
go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 14 (42:19):
We're a nation of immigrants. All of my friends, most
of which are very conservative, really agree with legal immigration.
We need more legal immigration. The process needs to be
simpler and more effective. We need to be able to
it sounds a little rough, but weed out the people
(42:40):
that we want to need, and first the people that
maybe aren't ready yet, and just make the process efficient.
Speaker 2 (42:48):
And do you have any idea of how you would
do that, Travis.
Speaker 14 (42:54):
The bureaucracy is so embedded and so strong. Each one
of the simple step takes nonsense. Sometimes years. So just
making those processes more efficient, getting rid of some of
the red tape, I mean, it shouldn't be that difficult
in theory.
Speaker 2 (43:12):
Yeah, Travis, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Zica, do you have any thoughts on how that could
be made more efficient get rid of some of the
red tape?
Speaker 2 (43:19):
As he says, so.
Speaker 9 (43:22):
Many of them. I mean, I think, look here, here's
one that creates these interminable lines that are inefficient. In
nineteen ninety, the last time we reformed the system, we
decided that no single country could account for more than
seven percent of green cards.
Speaker 2 (43:36):
Right.
Speaker 9 (43:37):
The problem is that when you have like India and Chinese, Filipino, Mexican,
there's huge lines for them, right, because there's there's millions
and millions of them waiting to come in versus say,
you know someone from a little country like like I
don't know, like Chile, right, you know that the line
is very short for Chilean's So it's very weird, right
that this this seven percent quota that we haven't changed
(43:58):
for thirty five years, creates these interminable lines, so that
someone from India literally has to wait one hundred and
ninety five years to get their green card, right, which
is which is an absolutely insane number. So that would
be a very easy one to eliminate. The other is
just increasing the quotas on the number of visas we allow.
Right when you only have eighty five thousand, h one
b's or sixty six thousand h two b's, you know,
(44:21):
and firms are demanding double, triple, quadruple that number. What
happens then is you have a lot of bureaucracy in
terms of how that's allocated, right, and we have these
inefficient lotteries, and so it's weird that we allocate visas
literally from a based on a roll of the dice,
like we determine which firms get workers by a roll
of the dice, and then with no sense of who
(44:42):
needs them more than the others. So I think, yeah,
eliminating those those quotas by country, the country quota, increasing
the numbers that we allow, and then increasing the direct
diversity of pathways because like you said, you know, a
dairy farmer has a totally different path than like a
fruit picker, even though they're doing very equivalent work. Right,
(45:03):
So that's what I mean.
Speaker 1 (45:05):
Joe is calling from Boston, Massachusetts. Hi, Joe, We welcome
to the middle.
Speaker 12 (45:09):
Go ahead with your thoughts, a thank you for taking
my call. I just wanted to comment on a statement
that was made by one of your guests regarding statistics.
And depending on who's putting out this out the statistics,
they can be made to to read whatever that the
maker wants them to read. The fact fact that the
(45:30):
matter is that a huge swap of the construction industry
in the restaurant industry industry, both industries which I have
worked in most of my life, have been taken over
by immigrants. That is just the fact. If you walk
in any restaurant you will see nothing but but but
(45:51):
immigrants working there. If you go on a on a
on a construction site in the in the nineties early
to two thousand, creams used to have to take sheep
sheep walk and move them up to different levels of
the of the building. Now they have immigrants carry them
up on their backs for cheaper labor. So they are
(46:12):
absolutely taking American's job because they pay them less and
they can hold them to lower lower standards because they
know they don't have any rights. So all of these
stats that people are coming up with and put putting out,
this is why people are upset.
Speaker 1 (46:34):
So would you restrict the number of legal immigrants who
would be allowed into this country?
Speaker 12 (46:38):
Joe, I would not. I am not against immigration. I
am against legal immigration because that absolutely drives down wages.
I am. I am not saying that no one should
be allowed to come in. But when you have a
legal immigration people, companies take take take advantage of that
(47:02):
absolutely and they and they paid pay them less.
Speaker 1 (47:05):
Okay, so thank you, thank you for calling, and uh,
we're running out of time here, but zeke, let me
let you respond to that with with this, I mean,
just it brings up a very important point. You can't
just talk about legal immigration because for many they say,
well the issue is this illegal immigration.
Speaker 2 (47:22):
And they merge them together.
Speaker 10 (47:27):
Yeah, I mean they do, right.
Speaker 9 (47:31):
The truth is, first of all, on the statistics point,
there's a difference between peer reviewed evidence and stuff that
like someone with a partisan interest puts out. I'm talking
about the peer reviewed evidence. The truth is like a
lot of the jobs that undocumented immigrants are doing, our
jobs that Americans will not do. I spend a lot
of time talking to people in the very same industries
(47:53):
that we're just mentioned, and they prefer to hire native
born people. It's just easier because they speak the language,
and for a lot of the other reasons, they just
cannot find the workers. And so again, if we increase
the pathways that are legal, those undocumented pathways will not
be necessary.
Speaker 2 (48:10):
Well, that is the time that we have this hour.
Speaker 1 (48:12):
I want to thank my guest See Hernandez, professor at
the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania and author
of the book The Truth About Immigration, and Bloomberg Immigration
reporter Alicia Caldwell.
Speaker 2 (48:21):
Thanks so much to both of you.
Speaker 4 (48:23):
Thankks for having me.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
And don't Forget the Middle is available as a podcast
in partnership with iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart Apple wherever
you listen to podcasts, and coming to your feed next
week an episode of our weekly podcast Extra One Thing
Trump Did, featuring CNN Chief media analyst Brian Stelter on
Trump's fights with the press, and next week we'll be
right back here as we approach the first one hundred
days of Trump's second presidency, we want to know what
(48:46):
you think so far.
Speaker 4 (48:48):
Oh, this is gonna be like a three hour show right.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
Well, as always, you can call in an eight four
four four middle. That's eight four four four six four
three three five three, or you can reach out at
listen to the middle dot com. You can also sign
up for our free weekly newsletter and find the sexiest
Middle t shirts and mugs.
Speaker 2 (49:05):
Oh my god, Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Well, thanks so much to our satellite radio listeners, our
podcast audience, and the more than four hundred and twenty
public radio stations making it possible for people across the
country to Listen to the Middle.
Speaker 2 (49:16):
I'm Jeremy Hobson. I will talk to you next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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