December 13, 2024 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle we're asking you: what can Democrats can do better to appeal to the working class? We're joined by Nebraska Democratic Party Chair Jane Kleeb and author and journalist Sarah Smarsh. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #workingclass #bluecollar #democrat #republican #Trump #Harris #election
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
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Speaker 2 (00:08):
And news organizations.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
More information on how you can support the Middle at
listen tooth Middle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm Jeremy Hobson and after a week that seemed like
a year off, Tolliver, you are back.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
To this j I'm back and I'm feeling better than ever.
Man got well And by the way, this is a
good time for us to remind our listeners that we
call you our house DJ.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
But if you're listening on the podcast, you don't get
to hear any of Tolliver's music because we don't have
the rights. I'm just the guy exactly. They're like, what
does he do so Tolliver? It has now been more
than a month since the election. We are still a
little more than a month away from inauguration day and
Democrats are still trying to figure out what went wrong
and how to fix it. They lost ground with a
number of demographics. But we're going to talk about a
(00:58):
big one today that you really need to win in
order to win the presidency, and that would be the
working class. That could be people without a college degree,
people who work in more industrial jobs, or people who
simply don't make enough money to be considered middle class.
It is a lot of people, more than half of
the voters in the election this year, and Trump won
them fifty four to forty four percent according to exit polls.
(01:22):
So our question this hour what do Democrats need to
do to better appeal to the working class. We'll get
to your calls in a moment at eight four four
four middle that is eight four four four six four
three three five three. But first, last week we talked
about America's loneliness epidemic and what we can do to
solve it. We got a lot of great calls. Here
are some of the comments that came into our voicemail
after the show.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
My name is Nathan Nelson. I live in Cleveland. I
live in a neighborhood that is really based in community.
There's even two separate organizations in our neighborhood that are
focused on social health. People reach out to us, and
when we moved here last year, it was an incredible
experience and it's something I've wondered if there's nationwide programs
for breading it because the programs here in our community
(02:03):
in Clevelands are just incredible.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
Hey, Jeremy, this is Brett Burdon's loneliness, and I think
the key to it is nobody owns houses anymore. I
live in California. Everybody rent, Everybody is moving because of rent,
and because of not being able to have the ownership,
the communities itself have fallen apart.
Speaker 6 (02:22):
This is Joshua Tim calling from Phoenix, Arizona. One thing
that's helped me since I've become an adult really put
myself in situations to see people consistently, Like recently, I
just did a comedy club and I think just having
something like that where we're seeing the same people weekend
and week out is important. That consistency and showing up.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
Well.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Thanks to everyone who called in, and you can hear
that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts,
on the iHeart app.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So now to our topic this hour, what can democrats
do to better appeal to the working class?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Tolliver, what is the number to call it?
Speaker 3 (02:58):
It's eight four four four Middle, that's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three, or you can
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Let's meet our panel. Joining us Jane Kleb, Nebraska's Democratic
Party Chair. Her book is called Harvest the Vote, How
Democrats can win again in rural America.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Jane, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 7 (03:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 8 (03:16):
And one thing Democrats can do is get better music
like Tolliver has.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Everybody needs a Tolliver Really the checks in the mail,
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Also joining us Sarah smartsh journalist and author of the
new book Bone of the Bone, Essays on America by
a daughter of the working class.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Sarah. Great to have you back on the Middle.
Speaker 9 (03:35):
Good to see you again, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
And before we get to the funds, let me ask
each of you what is your analysis? Why are Democrats
losing ground and Republicans gaining ground with working class Americans.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I'll start with you, Jane.
Speaker 8 (03:47):
We spend so much time as Democrats in our heads
rather than talking about from our hearts and in our gut,
and Trump and the Republicans do a very good job
of just cutting through the noise and getting to issues
that directly impact people's pocketbooks. And I often use climate
as an example. As Democrats, we talk about cet as
numbers and.
Speaker 7 (04:08):
Parish treaty accords and.
Speaker 8 (04:10):
Build back better and the IRA and all these appens,
rather than talking about let's protect people's land and water
and protect their property rights from you know, the risky
fossil fuel pipelines that are going to cross through their land.
But instead we talk about all this stuff up here,
rather than getting to folks gout in their feelings.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Sarah s Marsh, what do you think, well.
Speaker 9 (04:29):
Jeremy, I think that the premise of this episode of
your show contains the word that's really at the center
of the conundrum, which is class. I've been writing about
socioeconomic class as an underdiscussed aspect of the American identity
for almost twenty years, and you know, both parties grapple
with and struggle with that concept in different ways. I
(04:51):
would argue that maybe the right has weaponized that aspect
of identity to great effect, whereas the Democrats largely have
failed to even reckon with that shared experience among struggling Americans.
That cuts across a lot of other identity markers that
we are often considering when we talk about things like
(05:11):
diversity and equity and inclusion that are important to most
folks of a liberal persuasion. So, you know, I think
the conversation is sort of nascent in some ways on
the Democratic side of the aisle, and they're gonna have
some catching.
Speaker 7 (05:24):
Up to do.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Jane, what do you think about that. You're the chair
of the Democratic Party of Nebraska.
Speaker 8 (05:30):
Yeah, so, you know, it's frustrating, I think as Democratic leaders,
because we know that our party has always stood with
working class and our policies impact working class folks, but
that message in the brand of the Democrats is obviously
not getting to people. I also think it's a problem
that we as a party haven't really come up with
(05:51):
any big ideas that will impact people's pocketbooks since FDR.
So we're talking a lot about that as Democratic leaders
right now.
Speaker 10 (05:59):
You know.
Speaker 8 (06:00):
Is it something like do we start running on expanding
public location from pre k all the way through community college?
You know, obviously two years of not having to pay daycare,
which is extremely expensive for working families, and then getting
young people through community college so they can do a
trade nursing. So I think these are the things that
(06:20):
we have to do, you know. But I do think
that there were you know, Sarah's that the Republicans have
weaponized class. They've been very good about wedging then cultural
issues and feelings of like your episode last week of loneliness,
there's a lot of working class folks who do feel lonely,
who do feel left behind, and that cuts different racial backgrounds.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I also think that sorry cut in here, that Democrats
could just do a better job of tooting their own
horn a little bit, because, for what I understand, the
economic numbers were pretty good heading into this election, but
everybody thought, you know, the Democrats were very bad on
the elect or sorry, on the economy.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Well, we'll get to some of the messaging issues Tolliver
that you bring up there. But Sarah, before we go
to the funds, I want to ask you one more thing, because,
according to the Brookings Institution, in the working class, there
are now far more workers in healthcare and retail than
there are in manufacturing, and far more in food service
than in construction.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Many are women, many are not unionized.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Is as we think about the twenty twenty four working class,
it may not be the working class that sort of
comes to mind when you just put those two words together.
Speaker 9 (07:26):
Yeah, it's surely it includes the white guy in a
hard hat or the white guy going down into a
coal mine. But that ain't it. That ain't even most
of it anymore. And so these sorts of complexities, we
can't unravel the sort of stereotype of the working class
until we even have a shared language to be discussing it.
One thing I come across is when I bring a
(07:48):
critique about, well, the Democrats didn't talk enough about the
working class, and then someone will literally respond to me
by saying, they talked about the middle class all the time.
They're not here in the different they're literally here. There
is a difference, there is a demarcation line. And if
we're that clunky with our language still in you know,
kind of reckoning with historic wealth inequality and what that
(08:12):
means about our class structure, then the sort of nuance
that you're talking about, Jeremy, where you know, getting into
all the beautiful diverse and many diversity identities that exist
within the working class is going to be a struggle.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Let me go to Ron, who's calling from Arlington Heights, Illinois. Ron,
welcome to the middle Go ahead, what do you think
the Democrats should do to better appeal to the working class?
Speaker 11 (08:37):
Well, as I was saying, I think that the party
has strayed a little bit from its base, and I
think a lot of people perceive it as being too liberal. Now,
I was born in a blue craant class family. My
father was a butcher, and the Butcher Union, their whole
subdivision was democratic, and you know, those are the values
(08:58):
that instilled in me. But as I've gotten older, I
have voted for Republicans occasionally. But I'm sixty six now
it's gotten so divisive that, as I was saying, when
I read some of these comments on the political articles,
you're either maga or you're woke, and it seems like
there's no common ground. And I don't feel that i'm either.
(09:20):
But I think the perception is that the Democrats are
focusing on some issues that are just too far to
the left, that aren't affecting the common man. And I
think Joe Biden did a lot for the working class.
And I don't know why it's not being perceived that way,
but yeah, I don't know. I don't have an answer.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, no, but we take your point. Ron, it's a
good point. Let me let me take it to our guest, Jane.
What do you think about that. I mean it sort
of gets to what we've been talking about that maybe
they are these bigger issues, but people aren't. The Democrats
aren't talking enough about those kitchen table economic issues.
Speaker 7 (10:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (10:05):
And I think one of the other problems that we
have is the Republicans have gotten so good at micro
targeting these media bubbles and information bubbles that a lot
of us are in now. So it's no longer your
town paper and kind of CNN and MSNBC. You know,
it's different podcasts, it's different radio shows, it's different blogs,
it's Reddit. And the Republicans, I think, have done a
(10:26):
good job of villainizing Democrats. Right, So all of the
mail that went out against Democratic candidates in Nebraska for
state ledge and further down ballot was really focused on
the trans issue, and they basically said, you know, John
Cavanaugh is for they them, not you, And that cuts
(10:47):
to I think, you know, people's heart and guts and
feeling like Democrats are leaving them behind. And Democrats aren't
necessarily only focusing on trans and abortion and some of
these other cultural issues, but we're not running away from
them because we feel like it's a need for us
to defend in those you know, obviously critical people's lives,
(11:08):
but Republicans do a good job of then wedging us,
so then we don't get to talk about Talliver.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
We can't talk about the working class without talking about unions,
of course, which have usually supported Democrats. But this year
we saw a distinct shift from unions at both the
rank and file and leadership level.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah, very true. The teamsters in particular have long been
staunched supporters of Democrat candidates, but not this year. Here's
teams to President Sean O'Brien on Fox News. The union
decided not to endorse either candidate this year.
Speaker 12 (11:36):
We interviewed both candidates and we were seeking commitments from
both candidates, and we couldn't get solid commitments on our
core issues like the pro Act, like video and national
right to work, like staying out of labor disputes and
not trying to force any contracts on us, like what
happened to our brothers and sisters in the real industry.
And we didn't get solid commitments from either candidate, which
(11:57):
was a major factor in our decision as a general
executive board not to endorse any candidate.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
And again, he didn't endorse either candidate this year, we'll
be right back with more of the middle. This is
the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking you what can the Democratic Party
do to reach the working class? Better appeal to the
working class. However, what is the number to call in?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
It's eight four four for Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us that listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I'm joined by journalists and author Sarah Smarsh and Nebraska
Democratic Party Chair Jane Kleb. And before we go back
to the phones, let's talk about unions, because we just
heard from Sean O'Brien a moment ago, the Teamsters, also
the longshoreman, the firefighters union. They did not endorse the
Democrat this time, even though they have done that in
the past, and even though Democrats are more supportive of unions.
(12:57):
Kamala Harris walked a picket line with striking autoworkers Jane Club,
what do you think about the shift among union workers,
which is an important part of the working class, although
not all of the working class.
Speaker 8 (13:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think obviously the vast majority of
unions backed you know, Democrats, especially at the top of
the ticket, clearly at the state and local level. But
what I think you are seeing is some of the
rank and file are pushing back on their leadership. There
are more Republicans in unions now than there used to be.
The railroaders for example, and Nebraska used to be percent Democrats.
(13:29):
They're now seveny Republicans. So there is a real shift,
and I think we're seeing, you know, their leadership reflecting.
Speaker 7 (13:35):
Their baits now.
Speaker 8 (13:36):
Obviously, Democrats policies clearly back unions were the ones who
believe that we need to pass a national law like
card check that gives people the ability to create unions
in their workplace, and Republicans are firmly against that. But again,
you know, I think some of the problems also is
in the visuals of Democrats.
Speaker 7 (13:55):
We don't have many.
Speaker 8 (13:56):
Rural We just lost our last working farmer in John Tester,
have many rural We don't have any working class folks
in leadership positions being the ones that are the spokespeople
of our party.
Speaker 7 (14:07):
That's something that.
Speaker 8 (14:07):
We're actively working now to change in this new leadership
elections that we're hosting.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Interesting, let's go to Susan, who's in Payatt County, Idaho.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Susan, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 13 (14:18):
Go ahead, Hi, what a timely discussion. A Paett County,
Idaho very rural. My husband a longtime Democrat farmer there.
I attended the reorganization meeting this week of our Paett
County Democrats. I was the only person attending who had
any linkage to working class America by history. Granddaughter of
(14:42):
a mine worker, daughter of a teamster. I was a
public service employee union member. I was the only one
who mentioned that I can go toe to toe with
these managerial types based on my education at the elite
universe public university of our country. But I don't lead
with that. But they don't care that I am the
only person sitting in this room who has any connection
(15:05):
with working people. They're all about the money. Who gives
the most money to the campaigns? That all lost, by
the way, and the tone is all wrong. I like
Sarah's comment clunky language. I'm one of their peers on education,
but they offended me. And I'm a lifelong Democrat.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
And did you ever consider voting for Trump this time around, Susan.
Speaker 13 (15:30):
Oh, never, I would not vote before, I would vote
for tones, could never vote for anything that man stands for.
It's all alive. Anybody who will listen will agree with
you on the individual lives. They just won't take the
package and say no, that's not acceptable.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
So why do you think so many people in the
working class Susan did decide to vote for Trump this
last time?
Speaker 13 (15:56):
Well, as I said, I was dismissed in a group
of my peers for being a working class person. As
Jane said, a nurse is a trades person. Well, the
kind of education that it takes to be a trades
person anymore is kind of high, and for all years
it has been. But you're not treated like you're the
peer of these people who manage the rest of you.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
You're just not, Susan.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Thank you, Sarah, smash your thoughts on that. I mean,
she's really articulating the idea of like being looked down
on by her even her fellow Democrats.
Speaker 9 (16:31):
Yes, class is not just about money. It's not just
about income. It's not just about wealth that is or
isn't in a bank account.
Speaker 7 (16:37):
It's not even just.
Speaker 9 (16:38):
About college degrees. It's also about culture and about attitudes,
and about the way that certain spaces and certain types
of people have been portrayed in movies and TV shows
and books for a long time in a way that
is deeply marked by classism, and that concern, that issue
(16:59):
is rife throughout our society. And I don't think it's
the province of the Democratic Party by a means or limited.
Speaker 7 (17:08):
To that space.
Speaker 9 (17:09):
But there is something to the fact that at the
same moment that okay, we had NAFTA, which was a culmination,
that free trade agreement in the nineties was a culmination
of both parties.
Speaker 7 (17:23):
The person who.
Speaker 9 (17:24):
Signed it into law was Bill Clinton. I think that
left a bitter taste in a lot of former Democrats' mouth,
Democrats at the time who were members of the working class.
And then at that precise moment, we find ourselves moving
toward historic wealth inequality. And then at that precise moment,
the Right comes in and starts talking about class and
addressing the very valid sense of pain and being on
(17:49):
the losing end of condescension and it's really a perfect
storm for the Democrats to experience the sort of reckoning
that they're seeing right now.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Well, and it's interesting because you mentioned NAFTA. That was
one of the first things that Donald Trump did when
he came in the first time was renegotiated into the USMCA,
and now he's saying that he wants to do that again,
even though that was his his deal. But obviously he
sees that as on the top of minds of people
in the working class in this country and his supporters.
(18:18):
Let's go to Shock Kim, who is in north side
Las Vegas, Nevada, shot him.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Welcome to the middle, go ahead.
Speaker 14 (18:27):
Thank you so much appreciated. I just wanted to say
I kind of came in on the tail end of
conversation and the last thing I heard was maybe the
Democrats should have toooed up their own horn regarding the economy.
And you know, it's funny because well, not really funny,
but you know, kind of humorous because it's like, you know,
(18:47):
I've studied accounting, and I've taken several economics classes, and
I always found that a lot of the indicators, key
indicators regarding an economy that candidates will like to kind
of you know, spout all to you know, to prove
that the economy is doing so great. A lot of
what they're saying, the working class they don't feel that.
And maybe, you know, on the macro level, the economy
(19:09):
is doing great, But my grandfather, who's buying eggs at Smith's,
he can't make that connection. And sure there may be
av and bird flu, you know, that's you know, causing
the price of eggs to rise. But you know, that
messaging that's not getting out. And even if it did
get out, I don't know if somebody like my grandfather
or my father, I don't know if they will be
(19:30):
recepted to that.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
You know.
Speaker 14 (19:31):
So I think, you know, just saying, oh, democraticators toot
their horn with the economy a bit more, I don't
even know if that will be effective.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, I guess actions speak louder than words to it
to a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Shot Kim, thank you, Jane Club, what do you think
about that?
Speaker 7 (19:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (19:47):
You know, as a chair we would get these talking
points from the White House, you know that were like
three pages long telling us to you know, keep on
hitting the build back better and the IRA and how
many projects. You know, money went out too, but you
know a lot of those projects weren't getting built yet, right,
and so they'll actually be getting built under Donald Trump.
And so you'll see Donald Trump actually getting a lot
(20:10):
of credit for battery storage and all these other kind
of projects that the money went out the door under Biden.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
And so we failed to listen to voters.
Speaker 8 (20:21):
We failed to address the immediate concerns that people were having,
whether it was gas prices, then it was groceries and housing,
and we know solutions that worked, right.
Speaker 7 (20:32):
The child tax credit did work. It put immediate money in.
Speaker 8 (20:35):
People's pockets and immediately addressed their concerns and their pain.
And as Democrats, we should have done the same again. Instead,
we were worried about Republicans hitting us with, you know,
talking points of debt. But if the republic, if the
tables were turned, Republicans would have done exactly that.
Speaker 7 (20:52):
They would have gotten checks signed by Donald Trump.
Speaker 8 (20:55):
Into people's mailboxes, so they knew that the government was
listening to them.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Well.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
And speaking of sign by Donald Trump, I saw President
Biden was saying he thought that he was I don't
know whether he.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Used the word stupid or an idiot for not.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Signing his name on stimulus checks because Donald Trump obviously
got credit for signing his name on the stimulus checks.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
It still blows my mind the Democrats can't message to
the working class when their opponent is Donald Trump and
come on, literally.
Speaker 7 (21:21):
A billionaire, right. We fased a billionaire.
Speaker 8 (21:24):
Who had felonies, who's basically a reality TV show and
has multiple bankruptcies, and we couldn't beat him because there
is something about him that makes people say he will
stick it to the man, right like he even though
he is a billionaire, he looks he gives this perception
that he is against corporate greed and that's our party,
(21:45):
that's our party's message.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
But we failed to even mention that.
Speaker 8 (21:49):
I mean, did you hear Kamala Harris often talk about
how we are going to take it to corporate greed.
Speaker 7 (21:55):
No, we did not. We didn't deliver that message.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Let's go to David who's in Dallas Town Access David,
Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
What do you think.
Speaker 15 (22:04):
I really appreciate you taking the call. If you could
have the Democratic Party stopped insulting the working class. I
think back to the infamous backut of Deplorable's comment, right,
There's been a succession of figures in the Democratic Party
who have made it sound like people who may be
better lying Republicans or were on the fence, and then
suddenly being told that, oh, if you're voting for Donald
(22:24):
truck or stupid, which I personally did not, just he
is deplorable. But then when you do that, I, as
somewhat of a moderate, have no route to engage with
the majority of my family and my sened family who
are mega Republicans who maybe were raised in a more
traditional setting or were very religious.
Speaker 16 (22:43):
I myself be very religious, and I have no leg
to stand on. If you insault the electric if you
insult people because they don't agree with some of the
culture worse stuff that's being said, then there is no
room for dialogue and just going to continue to polarize
the conversations.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And did you hear Kamala Harris in particular insulting the
electorate or are you just talking in general terms? Are
you going back to Hillary Clinton with the basket of
port I'm.
Speaker 16 (23:08):
Going back to Harry Clinton. I'm also thinking about President
Biden in some of the comments that he made about
individuals who are voting for Ronald Trump, during the election
and even after he bowed out right because that didn't
do Kamala Harris any favors when he made those comments.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, David, thank you very much for that. Sarah smrsh
your thoughts there on David's comments.
Speaker 9 (23:30):
Just to expand on the sense that he's getting at
or pointing at. It doesn't have to just be an
overt comment or insult. I would argue that it's an
insult to tell people that the economy is doing great
when there's forty or fifty million people in this country
and poverty. The most common household among them is single
(23:50):
mothers and their children. Never heard the word poverty. I
read an eighty two page economic plan. I didn't see
the term working class once. I even did a PDF
story for it. Wasn't there poverty was mentioned in that document.
The economic plan that was offered by the Harris campaign
in the context of the child tax credit very good.
But what I'm getting at is it's not just about
(24:12):
direct and over insults. It's about it's about a sense
of being unseen and a sense of being rendered invisible
and by whether it's the reality or the messaging or both.
Politics and political behavior is really an emotional one before
it is a rational one oftentimes, and that's true on
both sides of the aisle. And a lot of people
(24:34):
just felt like we're in a burn it down moment,
right or wrong. I am struggling to survive and I'm
ready to burn it down. A Democratic socialist from Vermont
who had a similar message got more support in the
Kansas caucus in twenty sixteen than Donald Trump did. Okay,
And so I'm not so sure that it's about too
much wokeness or being too progressive on social ideas. I
(24:57):
think it's about like, who is looking in the eye
and saying, I believe that you are in pain and
we need major structural change. And if if whether they're
whether what they're lying or not, and what their motivations are,
that's a different conversation. But but I think what the
caller was getting at is a sense of, uh, the
(25:20):
real struggle and strife that a lot of people feel
is you know, being made invisible while perhaps they're simultaneously
also being consent condescended to well.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
And Jane Club.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Donald Trump did make a lot of promises in this
campaign about no tax on tips, no tax on over time,
and things like that. Do you expect him to carry
out those those promises? He even is talking about potentially
raising the minimum wage, things that a lot of people
in the working class would like to see.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Do you expect him to do those things? And do
you expect him to be punished if he doesn't do
those things by these people who voted for him?
Speaker 8 (25:59):
So polytics memories, people's memories are very short. So I'm
not sure that you know. And if we've seen the
track record of Donald Trump, he doesn't seem to get
punished by voters. Now he's already started to walk back
the minimum wage comment. He made a comment just the
other day that he's not sure that he could do
it at the national level because there's different states that
have different economic needs, like somebody in Nebraska eight dollars
(26:22):
an hours different than somebody in New York. So you
may start to see him walk back some of these
things and on like overtime.
Speaker 7 (26:30):
I was with a bunch of union guys at IBW.
Speaker 8 (26:32):
Hall the other day and they were very frustrated about
the overtime comment because they basically were like, we know
what he's doing.
Speaker 7 (26:37):
It's basically all window dressing.
Speaker 8 (26:39):
He's gonna say that he's gonna have no taxes on overtime,
but then there's gonna be rules in place where they
can't even get overtime, So that you know, there's this
like give and take of the issues at play. But
I do think that this really goes back to voters
definitely told us at the doors. This was not something
that we were blinds by as Democrats. I think a
(27:02):
lot of you know, there's some structural issue to this
where the boomers won't let go of leadership positions and
our party they've been so detached from on the ground
working class and middle class voters that they don't even
have the ability to hear us when we say there's
a problem because they're living in the bubble of DC
(27:23):
or the bubble of consulting class. Not to say, obviously
that Biden Inherris didn't do great things. I'm a strong Democrat.
I believe Democratic Party looks out for people. But we
failed voters this cycle, and we allowed Donald Trump to
get back into the White House, and he is going
to do real harm on poor working class in people
who we care about, like immigrants.
Speaker 7 (27:43):
Put food on our table.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Let's get to a call. Ken is calling from Nashville, Tennessee.
Ken What do you think the Democrats should do to
appeal to the working class.
Speaker 17 (27:53):
Yeah, it's the first and foremost problem is that the
playbook today is the same it was in nineteen sixty eight.
In sixty eight, Lyndon Johnson doesn't run, Hubert Humphrey takes over.
There are a ton of celebrities backing Hubert Humphrey, Rocker,
Tommy James, They go, Will, let's get him because we
(28:15):
need to have the young vote. It's the same thing
that happened this year. It's an old playbook. It does
not work. You're not going to get the middle class
and those who are in need to come to vote
for your candidate because you've got John bon Jovie on
stage or Beyonce. Nobody cares about that. And I'm a
professional musician, nobody cares about that. I've run three campaigns
(28:37):
for Democrats in this state. I cannot even get any
congressman or congresswoman to call me back ever, because they don't.
What they will do is send you an email and
say we got your message. Hey, we're a little low
on funds, send us some money.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
That's what did you make a five dollars contribution right
now on Ken, Thank you for that, and you've set
up Tolliver for like any kind of you can say.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Now, Tommy James, I'm voting for Kid Rock.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Okay, that's where my vote is.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Telliver. I know some messages are coming in online.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Yeah, we got a lot of them. So Laura and
Greeley says Democrats need one liners, Democrats need more one liners.
I agree with that, John and Chicago Rights. I personally
don't think Trump and his cronies will help, but I
have vast sympathies for people who think that the nanny
state has crept into every aspect of our lives, and
their intrusive policies, from very poorly thought out green energy
to ineffective DEI strategies have rightfully driven people to have
(29:31):
to pick any alternative.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
You know.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
It's that is a perfect segue, Tolliver, because the idea
of the messaging being the problem is something that has
been around for a long time for Democrats.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah, and that's something we've heard before. Here's some criticism
of Hillary Clinton's ability to appeal to working class white
voters in twenty sixteen from none other than Joe Biden.
Speaker 18 (29:52):
There's been a shift in a focus now that we
got the car out of the ditch and on the
road and running on really focusing on the real inequities
that exist and still exists for working class, middle class
people who are left behind. And uh, And what happened
was that wasn't the central part of the campaign moving
forward in my view now. I said at the convention,
(30:13):
when I introduced Hillery and praised her, I said, we
don't show enough respect to that group that in fact
has been left behind.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
That as you can hear, Tulliver is Joe Biden from
a long time ago, twenty sixteen, that's when that was vintage. Yes,
we'll be right back with more of your calls on
the middle.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
This is the Middle.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
I'm Jeremy Hobson, and this hour we're asking you what
could Democrats do to appeal to the working class. You
can call us at eight four four four Middle that's
eight four four four six four.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Three three five three.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
You can also reach out at Listen to the Middle
dot com. I'm joined by journalists and author Sarah Smarsh
and Nebraska Democratic Party Chair Jane Kleb And before we
go back to the phones, Sarah one way of looking
at the select is that it was about inflation first
and foremost. That's something that's been happening around the world
since the pandemic, and parties that are in power have
(31:08):
been in trouble everywhere. What do you say to people
who say the Democrats don't have a problem with the
working class, they're just getting the blowback for inflation that
has hit the working class harder than anyone else.
Speaker 9 (31:19):
Well, I would say to that that, I think the
moment at which we find ourselves is a culmination of
decades of the Democratic Party kind of drifting away from
its original core identity in supporting working class folks. So, yes,
every election is a reflection of more recent times, but
(31:41):
there's been a deep shift and these sorts of trends
of specifically working class folks, first the white ones, and
now also people of color within that socioeconomic strata moving
away from the Democratic Party. And just in case it
doesn't come up by way of any other questions, let's
just let's just point out that, regardless of party, a
(32:02):
lot of good and decent people who are working within
that system, their hands are tied by the amount of money,
corporate money, big money, big billionaire money that is in
politics because of citizens United, and so long as that
is guiding the ship of our government. A lot of
(32:23):
these conversations that we're having are just sort of getting
at the edges of the true and primary cause of
what people are and are not able to do with.
The levers of are often very wonderful and enviewable democracy.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Let's go to Bob, who's in Overland Park, Kansas. Bob,
welcome to the middle. Your thoughts on what the Democrats
should do to appeal to the working class.
Speaker 19 (32:50):
Well, I agree with the last comment that it's been
decades since this problem has been building up. The Republicans
have spent the last forty to fifty years with think
tanks and academic position papers and the telecommunication infrastructure they have,
(33:12):
and they've convinced everybody that the solution to everything is
the free market and deregulate and get rid of government
and lower taxes. And no matter what people say, now,
they've got this in their head. So you can't even
raise taxes on billionaires now without people getting upset. And
(33:36):
the Democrats have got to start planning and changing so
that they can change the public awareness of the problems
we have where we've got a country of private opulence
and public squalor. And it's just appalling that we've had
this democratic acquiescence to all these things that have gone
(33:59):
on for the past thirty forty years, where they've allowed
deregulation and for example, we got rid of the U
in the radio, we got rid of the fairness doctrine.
So we've got all these terrible things going out that
people listen to all day, and deregulating the financial industry,
(34:22):
we've got levels of economic inequality that's just historic.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And I think I think we've got your point there.
Let me take that to Jane Cleb and ask me.
He says democratic acquiescence to what Republicans have been doing
for many years. It sounds like he's saying they're just
not fighting back enough.
Speaker 8 (34:44):
Yeah, and obviously we do need to fight back because
let's look at Donald Trump's cabinet. It is literally filled
with now billionaires, and he's certainly not a reflection of
the working or middle class with the people that he
is elevating and said, anywhere can people that if your
corporation and you give a billion dollars to make things
(35:04):
in America that he's going to do away with any regulation.
And I get that that is this populist message that
is going to cut through to some people.
Speaker 7 (35:13):
But what that is going to mean is going to be.
Speaker 8 (35:15):
More pollution for communities that are going to be left behind,
you know, not unsimilar to all of us not doing
good by folks who live near fossil fuels where we
need fossil fuels. Of course, when you turn your lights
on that you can see and we can build America,
but we never did right by the workers who were
(35:36):
in the coal mines.
Speaker 7 (35:37):
We never did right by the communities whose land and
water were polluted.
Speaker 8 (35:41):
And so we have this major responsibility in front of
us now as Democrats, where we can put forward proposals
and ideas to reform America as an energy system so
communities are actually made whole while we're still making energy.
Speaker 7 (35:54):
That's what we are going to do.
Speaker 8 (35:56):
I mean, there's a whole new generation of Democrats, myself
included Ken Martin who's running for the d are we
are scared of sitting and waiting for the boomers to
let us lead. We're basically pushing our way through to
the front. So we do start to change our message.
We do start to reflect more than one person on
the convention stage, which was John Russell. We had one
(36:17):
working class person who wore a snapshirt and a haircut
that working class people visually recognize that has got to change.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Let's go to Hannah, who is in Philadelphia.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Hannah, welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 20 (36:31):
Hey, thanks, Jeremy. Yeah, I'm from Philly. So one of
the things I was thinking about was maybe we're ignoring
the fact that not that we did something wrong with
our messaging, but we're ignoring the fact that the candidate
wasn't just appealing to the vast majority of the working class.
For instance. I mean, and I'm totally cool with you know, I.
Speaker 21 (36:53):
Wanted a woman.
Speaker 20 (36:54):
I didn't you know, of color would have been fine too.
I was a supporter of Barack Obama. But I think
that the male factor is really important to traditional people.
You know, the working class tends to be more traditional,
and I think we're kind of ignoring that and thinking
that it's the messaging or the things we did long
when really might have just been the candidate.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
It's an interesting point, and I'm glad that we have
an all female panel to respond to that. Sarah smarsh
I mean, she's making the point that maybe the working class,
more traditional didn't want a woman candidate, and that that
was one of the problems.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
What do you think about that.
Speaker 9 (37:33):
I think there might be some religious factions of our
electorate for whom that would be true. The working class folks,
I know, regardless of gender, regardless of race. I'm gonna
be honest with you. Of course, sexism and misogyny remain
rife in our society, and I don't actually believe that
that was the main reason that a lot of working
class voters didn't connect with with the candidate.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Okay, Aisha is with us from Chicago. Aisha, what do
you think?
Speaker 10 (38:01):
Hi, thank you for taking my call. I was telling
a producer. I really think that there we we've this
has been discussed right. There is a listening problem within
the party. There is a communicating problem within the party,
and I think that's because the party no longer knows
the middle the working class. I think they are. There
is a vast different or distance that's been put between
(38:23):
the party and the representative than what actually exists out
here on the ground. And that's showing up in one
way that I noticed during the campaign season that it
showed up. It's even the language that's being used. How
can you talk to someone who works a teamster that
(38:43):
works in a factory about the ax that they pay
when you're talking at economic times? Do they even understand
what you're talking about? How can you display how your
policy will affect them when they don't even know how
policy works. So knowing your audience is one of the
ways that you communicate with your audience effectively, and that
(39:04):
is not happening in the party, not at all.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Well, so let me ask you.
Speaker 20 (39:08):
That majority of people, sir.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Did you hear messaging from Trump that reached you, even
if maybe you didn't agree with it, then you did absolutely.
Speaker 10 (39:20):
Here I mean, here's what I mean when I say
yes and no. To be clear, I did not agree
with I did not vote for him. But it was
very easy for me to communicate with my mother that
Trump is saying, or a candidate generally, is saying, we
want to make your streets safe, we want to bring
your prices down, you know, just straight to the point messaging.
(39:43):
Whether he was lying or not, whether it was true
or even possible or not, does not matter to my mother.
It was understood. Now the next phase in the conversation
may be the how the this is going to take
ten years not tomorrow, that you know, be a additional,
more high level of thought, more educational educated conversation. She's
(40:08):
never taken an economy class, doesn't know economics class, so
she doesn't know where that works. But she did understand
this to the point. Yeah, it hits my pocket, it
hits my street, it hits my family messaging, and that's
where the Dems have a problem. Lastly, really quickly, I
just wanted to also mention something that her entire friend
group said to me. They felt like his messaging was
(40:31):
so effective to them because he had fight in him
for the people that the Dems have not shown in
the years generations.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Thank you for taking my cast Aisha, thank you for calling.
And Jane Kleve your response to that means another person
saying it's the messaging and that the Democrats are not
doing it in an effective way with the working class.
Speaker 8 (40:53):
Yeah, I mean Trump is very effective of coming off
as a fighter and sticking with his folks and never
backing down even if we think his position is not
morally right, and any other adjective that you want to
put on it. He has done a masterful job at that.
We also have messengers like that on our side. It's
why you hear voters say that they both like Ted
(41:15):
Cruz and AOC because they're both kind of taking it
to the people, or that they like Trump and AOC
because they stand with the people and they're, you know,
take sticking it to the man.
Speaker 7 (41:27):
So it's a lesson that we have to learn as Democrats.
Speaker 8 (41:30):
I also want to make sure that you know it's
very clear that we as a party fell into this
trap that posters were telling us for the last ten
years that the rising American electorate, that was the words
that they put on it was going to lock in
Democratic majorities for the next thirty years. And they basically
(41:51):
were meaning young communities of color were going to be
with us on issues like abortion and other issue and
that did not pan out because we did not listen
to working class and middle class voters across race who
were saying, wait a second, I actually care more about housing, healthcare,
public education, jobs.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Tolliver some messages coming in online.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Yeah, First, I want to say people are loving my
horn tuting comment, but house loving it in the messages.
Peter from Fort Worth says no amount of messaging can
overcome all of his lies. When Trump outright lies them,
do not only have to call out the light to respond,
they also have to give a better alternative. And the
combo is too much to message cleanly. Think of the
eating dogs or cats line, or the Biden killed oil
(42:35):
and gas and that's why gas prices are high. I'm
gonna stop there because you know, we're running out of time.
But I thought that was a nice pressure.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
That's great, and we do have another call from Detroit.
Tony is with us. Tony, welcome to the middle. Go ahead.
Speaker 21 (42:49):
Yeah, But just my background. You know, I'm a black
man married to a white woman, So I got four
biracial daughters, and they're all kind of educated and wrong
with my my wife and like our conversations, our day
to day conversations, they just couldn't identify. And I think
that's the problem. The Democratic Party is becoming a more
(43:12):
educated party or a more I want to see. You know,
it's a college educated group that does not identify with
the working class like me. And my daughters would go
back and forth and they kept talking about things that
their dad, a retired carpenter, and I was like, Listen,
I swung a hammer for thirty five years, and everything
(43:32):
that you guys are talking about us working cast people
do not identify with that, you know. And I mean
like it was a lot of fluff. I mean, Kamala
would be, you know, going someplace talking about fried chicken
and hot sauce and collar greens. We don't want to
hear about that stuff. I mean, we want to know
what are you gonna do to strengthen the union and
(43:52):
strengthen the working class. And like my Carpenter's union, we
supported Trump as a you know, as a reunion. We
threw our hat behind Trump. Just felt like I did
not you know, I'm a conservative Democrat, but I still
couldn't vote for him, you know, And just a lot
of the things that he was saying that I thought
(44:13):
was racist, you know, about people eating their pets and
things like that, which were dog whistles to me. And
then even when I brought that kind of stuff up
to my daughters, you know, they felt like the voters
was too smart and then they were gonna look beyond that.
And I kept saying, listen, every day, working class two
point on construction site, that's what's being discussed you know,
(44:35):
nobody's saying that we're we're too smart to look beyond that.
They're saying, you know, the immigrants are taking our jobs,
they're eating our pets, and come out, it doesn't care
about our well being.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Interesting interesting points, Tony. I'm going to sneak in one
more call here. Beth is in rural Minnesota.
Speaker 22 (44:54):
Beth, go ahead, yeah, thank you, and God's bass that
gentlemen for still voting for the Democratic Party. Everyone in
my family besides myself and my spouse did not because
they are law and order people. They were freaked out
by riots that happened admittedly the last time President Trump
(45:15):
was in office outside of Minnesota, which is a solid
hour from where we are, but the Democrats kept calling
them dumb and they couldn't take it, and they just
felt like President Trump despite everything, despite first generation immigrants
on my mom's side and me being a second generation immigrant,
they still voted for President Trump. And so please, please
(45:36):
National Democratic Party change your messaging. We are smart, we're rural,
but we're educated. I have a PhD. Right, so it
has to stop. You have to get near messaging and
stop calling people dumb.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Beth, thank you, Jam Club I'm gonna go to you
on that because obviously you've written an entire book about
how democrats can reach out to rural America.
Speaker 8 (45:57):
Yeah, you know, if we actually just listened to royal
folks and address the concerns that they have and start
talking about the things that they want. You know, a
lot of royal folks want right to repair, They want
our public schools protected, they want to make sure that
they're you know, my doctor in my town is literally
servicing women from fifty counties to have their babies at
our hospital. These are the things that actually matter to people,
(46:21):
not if there's a trans athlete that wants to play
in sports on a different team. And so we have
to fight back, and we have to fight back without
gloves on and be tough and stop treating people like
they're stupid. Every single caller that you had on today
is smarter than every single polster I listen to at
a debrief home.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
That is a that's a viral moment. We should cut
that out and put it on social media.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
That's very interesting, Sarah Smarsh, I'm going to give you
the last word, and I'm going to throw you a
little bit of a curveball because as we go to error,
there is a story that is just all over the
place about the murder of this CEO of United health Care.
The suspect a twenty six year old who in many
parts of the internet is being treated as a hero
for taking matters into his own hands to go after
(47:08):
a leader of the healthcare industry. How do you see
that story in the context of what we're talking about
this hour, the working class. Is it surprising to you
what's going on with that one?
Speaker 9 (47:19):
It's not surprising. And speaking of class, that of course
is the crux of that situation, the murder of health
insurance executive representing the deserved and deeply pained grievance of
(47:40):
all sorts of folks who aren't basically wealthy. That's the
middle class on down. You can have insurance and still
struggle to get the care that you need. My understanding
is the shooter even came from an affluent background himself,
and yet struggled in the face of that barbaric industry
and so historic wealth inequality corporations doing their best to
(48:05):
control our government. And we're not talking about class in
the right way or enough, And it's it's we're at
a boiling point, and I hope that we we find
a better way to come together and have these hard
discussions so that we see less less political violence. But
it sure isn't surprising, that.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Is Sarah Smarsh.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Her book is called Bone of the Bone Essays on
America by a daughter of the working class and Nebraska
Democratic Party chair.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Jane Club has been with us as well. Thank you
both so.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Much, Thanks Jeremy, And next week a show you're not
gonna want to miss. We're gonna be asking what made
you happy in twenty twenty four and what you've had
it with? And I'm so excited to say our guests,
we're going to be the amazing host of the I've
Had It podcast.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
I love that you can call us or leave a
message at eight four four Middle, that's eight four four
or four six four three three five three, or you
can reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Or you can also sign up for our free weekly news.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
The Middle is brought to you by Long Media, distributed
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Thanks to our podcast audience, our satellite radio listeners, and
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Speaker 2 (49:22):
I'll talk to you next week.
The Middle is supported by Journalism Funding Partners, a nonprofit
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Speaker 2 (00:08):
And news organizations.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
More information on how you can support the Middle at
listen tooth Middle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 1 (00:20):
I'm Jeremy Hobson and after a week that seemed like
a year off, Tolliver, you are back.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
To this j I'm back and I'm feeling better than ever.
Man got well And by the way, this is a
good time for us to remind our listeners that we
call you our house DJ.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
But if you're listening on the podcast, you don't get
to hear any of Tolliver's music because we don't have
the rights. I'm just the guy exactly. They're like, what
does he do so Tolliver? It has now been more
than a month since the election. We are still a
little more than a month away from inauguration day and
Democrats are still trying to figure out what went wrong
and how to fix it. They lost ground with a
number of demographics. But we're going to talk about a
(00:58):
big one today that you really need to win in
order to win the presidency, and that would be the
working class. That could be people without a college degree,
people who work in more industrial jobs, or people who
simply don't make enough money to be considered middle class.
It is a lot of people, more than half of
the voters in the election this year, and Trump won
them fifty four to forty four percent according to exit polls.
(01:22):
So our question this hour what do Democrats need to
do to better appeal to the working class. We'll get
to your calls in a moment at eight four four
four middle that is eight four four four six four
three three five three. But first, last week we talked
about America's loneliness epidemic and what we can do to
solve it. We got a lot of great calls. Here
are some of the comments that came into our voicemail
after the show.
Speaker 4 (01:43):
My name is Nathan Nelson. I live in Cleveland. I
live in a neighborhood that is really based in community.
There's even two separate organizations in our neighborhood that are
focused on social health. People reach out to us, and
when we moved here last year, it was an incredible
experience and it's something I've wondered if there's nationwide programs
for breading it because the programs here in our community
(02:03):
in Clevelands are just incredible.
Speaker 5 (02:05):
Hey, Jeremy, this is Brett Burdon's loneliness, and I think
the key to it is nobody owns houses anymore. I
live in California. Everybody rent, Everybody is moving because of rent,
and because of not being able to have the ownership,
the communities itself have fallen apart.
Speaker 6 (02:22):
This is Joshua Tim calling from Phoenix, Arizona. One thing
that's helped me since I've become an adult really put
myself in situations to see people consistently, Like recently, I
just did a comedy club and I think just having
something like that where we're seeing the same people weekend
and week out is important. That consistency and showing up.
Speaker 5 (02:43):
Well.
Speaker 1 (02:43):
Thanks to everyone who called in, and you can hear
that entire episode on our podcast in partnership with iHeart Podcasts,
on the iHeart app.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Or wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
So now to our topic this hour, what can democrats
do to better appeal to the working class?
Speaker 2 (02:56):
Tolliver, what is the number to call it?
Speaker 3 (02:58):
It's eight four four four Middle, that's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three, or you can
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Let's meet our panel. Joining us Jane Kleb, Nebraska's Democratic
Party Chair. Her book is called Harvest the Vote, How
Democrats can win again in rural America.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Jane, Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 7 (03:15):
Thank you.
Speaker 8 (03:16):
And one thing Democrats can do is get better music
like Tolliver has.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
Everybody needs a Tolliver Really the checks in the mail,
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
Also joining us Sarah smartsh journalist and author of the
new book Bone of the Bone, Essays on America by
a daughter of the working class.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Sarah. Great to have you back on the Middle.
Speaker 9 (03:35):
Good to see you again, Jeremy.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
And before we get to the funds, let me ask
each of you what is your analysis? Why are Democrats
losing ground and Republicans gaining ground with working class Americans.
Speaker 2 (03:46):
I'll start with you, Jane.
Speaker 8 (03:47):
We spend so much time as Democrats in our heads
rather than talking about from our hearts and in our gut,
and Trump and the Republicans do a very good job
of just cutting through the noise and getting to issues
that directly impact people's pocketbooks. And I often use climate
as an example. As Democrats, we talk about cet as
numbers and.
Speaker 7 (04:08):
Parish treaty accords and.
Speaker 8 (04:10):
Build back better and the IRA and all these appens,
rather than talking about let's protect people's land and water
and protect their property rights from you know, the risky
fossil fuel pipelines that are going to cross through their land.
But instead we talk about all this stuff up here,
rather than getting to folks gout in their feelings.
Speaker 2 (04:27):
Sarah s Marsh, what do you think, well.
Speaker 9 (04:29):
Jeremy, I think that the premise of this episode of
your show contains the word that's really at the center
of the conundrum, which is class. I've been writing about
socioeconomic class as an underdiscussed aspect of the American identity
for almost twenty years, and you know, both parties grapple
with and struggle with that concept in different ways. I
(04:51):
would argue that maybe the right has weaponized that aspect
of identity to great effect, whereas the Democrats largely have
failed to even reckon with that shared experience among struggling Americans.
That cuts across a lot of other identity markers that
we are often considering when we talk about things like
(05:11):
diversity and equity and inclusion that are important to most
folks of a liberal persuasion. So, you know, I think
the conversation is sort of nascent in some ways on
the Democratic side of the aisle, and they're gonna have
some catching.
Speaker 7 (05:24):
Up to do.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
Jane, what do you think about that. You're the chair
of the Democratic Party of Nebraska.
Speaker 8 (05:30):
Yeah, so, you know, it's frustrating, I think as Democratic leaders,
because we know that our party has always stood with
working class and our policies impact working class folks, but
that message in the brand of the Democrats is obviously
not getting to people. I also think it's a problem
that we as a party haven't really come up with
(05:51):
any big ideas that will impact people's pocketbooks since FDR.
So we're talking a lot about that as Democratic leaders
right now.
Speaker 10 (05:59):
You know.
Speaker 8 (06:00):
Is it something like do we start running on expanding
public location from pre k all the way through community college?
You know, obviously two years of not having to pay daycare,
which is extremely expensive for working families, and then getting
young people through community college so they can do a
trade nursing. So I think these are the things that
(06:20):
we have to do, you know. But I do think
that there were you know, Sarah's that the Republicans have
weaponized class. They've been very good about wedging then cultural
issues and feelings of like your episode last week of loneliness,
there's a lot of working class folks who do feel lonely,
who do feel left behind, and that cuts different racial backgrounds.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
I also think that sorry cut in here, that Democrats
could just do a better job of tooting their own
horn a little bit, because, for what I understand, the
economic numbers were pretty good heading into this election, but
everybody thought, you know, the Democrats were very bad on
the elect or sorry, on the economy.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Well, we'll get to some of the messaging issues Tolliver
that you bring up there. But Sarah, before we go
to the funds, I want to ask you one more thing, because,
according to the Brookings Institution, in the working class, there
are now far more workers in healthcare and retail than
there are in manufacturing, and far more in food service
than in construction.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Many are women, many are not unionized.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Is as we think about the twenty twenty four working class,
it may not be the working class that sort of
comes to mind when you just put those two words together.
Speaker 9 (07:26):
Yeah, it's surely it includes the white guy in a
hard hat or the white guy going down into a
coal mine. But that ain't it. That ain't even most
of it anymore. And so these sorts of complexities, we
can't unravel the sort of stereotype of the working class
until we even have a shared language to be discussing it.
One thing I come across is when I bring a
(07:48):
critique about, well, the Democrats didn't talk enough about the
working class, and then someone will literally respond to me
by saying, they talked about the middle class all the time.
They're not here in the different they're literally here. There
is a difference, there is a demarcation line. And if
we're that clunky with our language still in you know,
kind of reckoning with historic wealth inequality and what that
(08:12):
means about our class structure, then the sort of nuance
that you're talking about, Jeremy, where you know, getting into
all the beautiful diverse and many diversity identities that exist
within the working class is going to be a struggle.
Speaker 1 (08:26):
Let me go to Ron, who's calling from Arlington Heights, Illinois. Ron,
welcome to the middle Go ahead, what do you think
the Democrats should do to better appeal to the working class?
Speaker 11 (08:37):
Well, as I was saying, I think that the party
has strayed a little bit from its base, and I
think a lot of people perceive it as being too liberal. Now,
I was born in a blue craant class family. My
father was a butcher, and the Butcher Union, their whole
subdivision was democratic, and you know, those are the values
(08:58):
that instilled in me. But as I've gotten older, I
have voted for Republicans occasionally. But I'm sixty six now
it's gotten so divisive that, as I was saying, when
I read some of these comments on the political articles,
you're either maga or you're woke, and it seems like
there's no common ground. And I don't feel that i'm either.
(09:20):
But I think the perception is that the Democrats are
focusing on some issues that are just too far to
the left, that aren't affecting the common man. And I
think Joe Biden did a lot for the working class.
And I don't know why it's not being perceived that way,
but yeah, I don't know. I don't have an answer.
Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, no, but we take your point. Ron, it's a
good point. Let me let me take it to our guest, Jane.
What do you think about that. I mean it sort
of gets to what we've been talking about that maybe
they are these bigger issues, but people aren't. The Democrats
aren't talking enough about those kitchen table economic issues.
Speaker 7 (10:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 8 (10:05):
And I think one of the other problems that we
have is the Republicans have gotten so good at micro
targeting these media bubbles and information bubbles that a lot
of us are in now. So it's no longer your
town paper and kind of CNN and MSNBC. You know,
it's different podcasts, it's different radio shows, it's different blogs,
it's Reddit. And the Republicans, I think, have done a
(10:26):
good job of villainizing Democrats. Right, So all of the
mail that went out against Democratic candidates in Nebraska for
state ledge and further down ballot was really focused on
the trans issue, and they basically said, you know, John
Cavanaugh is for they them, not you, And that cuts
(10:47):
to I think, you know, people's heart and guts and
feeling like Democrats are leaving them behind. And Democrats aren't
necessarily only focusing on trans and abortion and some of
these other cultural issues, but we're not running away from
them because we feel like it's a need for us
to defend in those you know, obviously critical people's lives,
(11:08):
but Republicans do a good job of then wedging us,
so then we don't get to talk about Talliver.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
We can't talk about the working class without talking about unions,
of course, which have usually supported Democrats. But this year
we saw a distinct shift from unions at both the
rank and file and leadership level.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
Yeah, very true. The teamsters in particular have long been
staunched supporters of Democrat candidates, but not this year. Here's
teams to President Sean O'Brien on Fox News. The union
decided not to endorse either candidate this year.
Speaker 12 (11:36):
We interviewed both candidates and we were seeking commitments from
both candidates, and we couldn't get solid commitments on our
core issues like the pro Act, like video and national
right to work, like staying out of labor disputes and
not trying to force any contracts on us, like what
happened to our brothers and sisters in the real industry.
And we didn't get solid commitments from either candidate, which
(11:57):
was a major factor in our decision as a general
executive board not to endorse any candidate.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
And again, he didn't endorse either candidate this year, we'll
be right back with more of the middle. This is
the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
In the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking you what can the Democratic Party
do to reach the working class? Better appeal to the
working class. However, what is the number to call in?
Speaker 3 (12:29):
It's eight four four for Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us that listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
I'm joined by journalists and author Sarah Smarsh and Nebraska
Democratic Party Chair Jane Kleb. And before we go back
to the phones, let's talk about unions, because we just
heard from Sean O'Brien a moment ago, the Teamsters, also
the longshoreman, the firefighters union. They did not endorse the
Democrat this time, even though they have done that in
the past, and even though Democrats are more supportive of unions.
(12:57):
Kamala Harris walked a picket line with striking autoworkers Jane Club,
what do you think about the shift among union workers,
which is an important part of the working class, although
not all of the working class.
Speaker 8 (13:08):
Yeah, I mean, I think obviously the vast majority of
unions backed you know, Democrats, especially at the top of
the ticket, clearly at the state and local level. But
what I think you are seeing is some of the
rank and file are pushing back on their leadership. There
are more Republicans in unions now than there used to be.
The railroaders for example, and Nebraska used to be percent Democrats.
(13:29):
They're now seveny Republicans. So there is a real shift,
and I think we're seeing, you know, their leadership reflecting.
Speaker 7 (13:35):
Their baits now.
Speaker 8 (13:36):
Obviously, Democrats policies clearly back unions were the ones who
believe that we need to pass a national law like
card check that gives people the ability to create unions
in their workplace, and Republicans are firmly against that. But again,
you know, I think some of the problems also is
in the visuals of Democrats.
Speaker 7 (13:55):
We don't have many.
Speaker 8 (13:56):
Rural We just lost our last working farmer in John Tester,
have many rural We don't have any working class folks
in leadership positions being the ones that are the spokespeople
of our party.
Speaker 7 (14:07):
That's something that.
Speaker 8 (14:07):
We're actively working now to change in this new leadership
elections that we're hosting.
Speaker 1 (14:13):
Interesting, let's go to Susan, who's in Payatt County, Idaho.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
Susan, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 13 (14:18):
Go ahead, Hi, what a timely discussion. A Paett County,
Idaho very rural. My husband a longtime Democrat farmer there.
I attended the reorganization meeting this week of our Paett
County Democrats. I was the only person attending who had
any linkage to working class America by history. Granddaughter of
(14:42):
a mine worker, daughter of a teamster. I was a
public service employee union member. I was the only one
who mentioned that I can go toe to toe with
these managerial types based on my education at the elite
universe public university of our country. But I don't lead
with that. But they don't care that I am the
only person sitting in this room who has any connection
(15:05):
with working people. They're all about the money. Who gives
the most money to the campaigns? That all lost, by
the way, and the tone is all wrong. I like
Sarah's comment clunky language. I'm one of their peers on education,
but they offended me. And I'm a lifelong Democrat.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
And did you ever consider voting for Trump this time around, Susan.
Speaker 13 (15:30):
Oh, never, I would not vote before, I would vote
for tones, could never vote for anything that man stands for.
It's all alive. Anybody who will listen will agree with
you on the individual lives. They just won't take the
package and say no, that's not acceptable.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
So why do you think so many people in the
working class Susan did decide to vote for Trump this
last time?
Speaker 13 (15:56):
Well, as I said, I was dismissed in a group
of my peers for being a working class person. As
Jane said, a nurse is a trades person. Well, the
kind of education that it takes to be a trades
person anymore is kind of high, and for all years
it has been. But you're not treated like you're the
peer of these people who manage the rest of you.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
You're just not, Susan.
Speaker 1 (16:19):
Thank you, Sarah, smash your thoughts on that. I mean,
she's really articulating the idea of like being looked down
on by her even her fellow Democrats.
Speaker 9 (16:31):
Yes, class is not just about money. It's not just
about income. It's not just about wealth that is or
isn't in a bank account.
Speaker 7 (16:37):
It's not even just.
Speaker 9 (16:38):
About college degrees. It's also about culture and about attitudes,
and about the way that certain spaces and certain types
of people have been portrayed in movies and TV shows
and books for a long time in a way that
is deeply marked by classism, and that concern, that issue
(16:59):
is rife throughout our society. And I don't think it's
the province of the Democratic Party by a means or limited.
Speaker 7 (17:08):
To that space.
Speaker 9 (17:09):
But there is something to the fact that at the
same moment that okay, we had NAFTA, which was a culmination,
that free trade agreement in the nineties was a culmination
of both parties.
Speaker 7 (17:23):
The person who.
Speaker 9 (17:24):
Signed it into law was Bill Clinton. I think that
left a bitter taste in a lot of former Democrats' mouth,
Democrats at the time who were members of the working class.
And then at that precise moment, we find ourselves moving
toward historic wealth inequality. And then at that precise moment,
the Right comes in and starts talking about class and
addressing the very valid sense of pain and being on
(17:49):
the losing end of condescension and it's really a perfect
storm for the Democrats to experience the sort of reckoning
that they're seeing right now.
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Well, and it's interesting because you mentioned NAFTA. That was
one of the first things that Donald Trump did when
he came in the first time was renegotiated into the USMCA,
and now he's saying that he wants to do that again,
even though that was his his deal. But obviously he
sees that as on the top of minds of people
in the working class in this country and his supporters.
(18:18):
Let's go to Shock Kim, who is in north side
Las Vegas, Nevada, shot him.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Welcome to the middle, go ahead.
Speaker 14 (18:27):
Thank you so much appreciated. I just wanted to say
I kind of came in on the tail end of
conversation and the last thing I heard was maybe the
Democrats should have toooed up their own horn regarding the economy.
And you know, it's funny because well, not really funny,
but you know, kind of humorous because it's like, you know,
(18:47):
I've studied accounting, and I've taken several economics classes, and
I always found that a lot of the indicators, key
indicators regarding an economy that candidates will like to kind
of you know, spout all to you know, to prove
that the economy is doing so great. A lot of
what they're saying, the working class they don't feel that.
And maybe, you know, on the macro level, the economy
(19:09):
is doing great, But my grandfather, who's buying eggs at Smith's,
he can't make that connection. And sure there may be
av and bird flu, you know, that's you know, causing
the price of eggs to rise. But you know, that
messaging that's not getting out. And even if it did
get out, I don't know if somebody like my grandfather
or my father, I don't know if they will be
(19:30):
recepted to that.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
You know.
Speaker 14 (19:31):
So I think, you know, just saying, oh, democraticators toot
their horn with the economy a bit more, I don't
even know if that will be effective.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (19:40):
Yeah, I guess actions speak louder than words to it
to a lot of people.
Speaker 2 (19:43):
Shot Kim, thank you, Jane Club, what do you think
about that?
Speaker 7 (19:47):
Yeah?
Speaker 8 (19:47):
You know, as a chair we would get these talking
points from the White House, you know that were like
three pages long telling us to you know, keep on
hitting the build back better and the IRA and how
many projects. You know, money went out too, but you
know a lot of those projects weren't getting built yet, right,
and so they'll actually be getting built under Donald Trump.
And so you'll see Donald Trump actually getting a lot
(20:10):
of credit for battery storage and all these other kind
of projects that the money went out the door under Biden.
Speaker 7 (20:16):
And so we failed to listen to voters.
Speaker 8 (20:21):
We failed to address the immediate concerns that people were having,
whether it was gas prices, then it was groceries and housing,
and we know solutions that worked, right.
Speaker 7 (20:32):
The child tax credit did work. It put immediate money in.
Speaker 8 (20:35):
People's pockets and immediately addressed their concerns and their pain.
And as Democrats, we should have done the same again. Instead,
we were worried about Republicans hitting us with, you know,
talking points of debt. But if the republic, if the
tables were turned, Republicans would have done exactly that.
Speaker 7 (20:52):
They would have gotten checks signed by Donald Trump.
Speaker 8 (20:55):
Into people's mailboxes, so they knew that the government was
listening to them.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
Well.
Speaker 1 (20:59):
And speaking of sign by Donald Trump, I saw President
Biden was saying he thought that he was I don't
know whether he.
Speaker 2 (21:05):
Used the word stupid or an idiot for not.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Signing his name on stimulus checks because Donald Trump obviously
got credit for signing his name on the stimulus checks.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
It still blows my mind the Democrats can't message to
the working class when their opponent is Donald Trump and
come on, literally.
Speaker 7 (21:21):
A billionaire, right. We fased a billionaire.
Speaker 8 (21:24):
Who had felonies, who's basically a reality TV show and
has multiple bankruptcies, and we couldn't beat him because there
is something about him that makes people say he will
stick it to the man, right like he even though
he is a billionaire, he looks he gives this perception
that he is against corporate greed and that's our party,
(21:45):
that's our party's message.
Speaker 7 (21:47):
But we failed to even mention that.
Speaker 8 (21:49):
I mean, did you hear Kamala Harris often talk about
how we are going to take it to corporate greed.
Speaker 7 (21:55):
No, we did not. We didn't deliver that message.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Let's go to David who's in Dallas Town Access David,
Welcome to the middle.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
What do you think.
Speaker 15 (22:04):
I really appreciate you taking the call. If you could
have the Democratic Party stopped insulting the working class. I
think back to the infamous backut of Deplorable's comment, right,
There's been a succession of figures in the Democratic Party
who have made it sound like people who may be
better lying Republicans or were on the fence, and then
suddenly being told that, oh, if you're voting for Donald
(22:24):
truck or stupid, which I personally did not, just he
is deplorable. But then when you do that, I, as
somewhat of a moderate, have no route to engage with
the majority of my family and my sened family who
are mega Republicans who maybe were raised in a more
traditional setting or were very religious.
Speaker 16 (22:43):
I myself be very religious, and I have no leg
to stand on. If you insault the electric if you
insult people because they don't agree with some of the
culture worse stuff that's being said, then there is no
room for dialogue and just going to continue to polarize
the conversations.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
And did you hear Kamala Harris in particular insulting the
electorate or are you just talking in general terms? Are
you going back to Hillary Clinton with the basket of
port I'm.
Speaker 16 (23:08):
Going back to Harry Clinton. I'm also thinking about President
Biden in some of the comments that he made about
individuals who are voting for Ronald Trump, during the election
and even after he bowed out right because that didn't
do Kamala Harris any favors when he made those comments.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Yeah, David, thank you very much for that. Sarah smrsh
your thoughts there on David's comments.
Speaker 9 (23:30):
Just to expand on the sense that he's getting at
or pointing at. It doesn't have to just be an
overt comment or insult. I would argue that it's an
insult to tell people that the economy is doing great
when there's forty or fifty million people in this country
and poverty. The most common household among them is single
(23:50):
mothers and their children. Never heard the word poverty. I
read an eighty two page economic plan. I didn't see
the term working class once. I even did a PDF
story for it. Wasn't there poverty was mentioned in that document.
The economic plan that was offered by the Harris campaign
in the context of the child tax credit very good.
But what I'm getting at is it's not just about
(24:12):
direct and over insults. It's about it's about a sense
of being unseen and a sense of being rendered invisible
and by whether it's the reality or the messaging or both.
Politics and political behavior is really an emotional one before
it is a rational one oftentimes, and that's true on
both sides of the aisle. And a lot of people
(24:34):
just felt like we're in a burn it down moment,
right or wrong. I am struggling to survive and I'm
ready to burn it down. A Democratic socialist from Vermont
who had a similar message got more support in the
Kansas caucus in twenty sixteen than Donald Trump did. Okay,
And so I'm not so sure that it's about too
much wokeness or being too progressive on social ideas. I
(24:57):
think it's about like, who is looking in the eye
and saying, I believe that you are in pain and
we need major structural change. And if if whether they're
whether what they're lying or not, and what their motivations are,
that's a different conversation. But but I think what the
caller was getting at is a sense of, uh, the
(25:20):
real struggle and strife that a lot of people feel
is you know, being made invisible while perhaps they're simultaneously
also being consent condescended to well.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
And Jane Club.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Donald Trump did make a lot of promises in this
campaign about no tax on tips, no tax on over time,
and things like that. Do you expect him to carry
out those those promises? He even is talking about potentially
raising the minimum wage, things that a lot of people
in the working class would like to see.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Do you expect him to do those things? And do
you expect him to be punished if he doesn't do
those things by these people who voted for him?
Speaker 8 (25:59):
So polytics memories, people's memories are very short. So I'm
not sure that you know. And if we've seen the
track record of Donald Trump, he doesn't seem to get
punished by voters. Now he's already started to walk back
the minimum wage comment. He made a comment just the
other day that he's not sure that he could do
it at the national level because there's different states that
have different economic needs, like somebody in Nebraska eight dollars
(26:22):
an hours different than somebody in New York. So you
may start to see him walk back some of these
things and on like overtime.
Speaker 7 (26:30):
I was with a bunch of union guys at IBW.
Speaker 8 (26:32):
Hall the other day and they were very frustrated about
the overtime comment because they basically were like, we know
what he's doing.
Speaker 7 (26:37):
It's basically all window dressing.
Speaker 8 (26:39):
He's gonna say that he's gonna have no taxes on overtime,
but then there's gonna be rules in place where they
can't even get overtime, So that you know, there's this
like give and take of the issues at play. But
I do think that this really goes back to voters
definitely told us at the doors. This was not something
that we were blinds by as Democrats. I think a
(27:02):
lot of you know, there's some structural issue to this
where the boomers won't let go of leadership positions and
our party they've been so detached from on the ground
working class and middle class voters that they don't even
have the ability to hear us when we say there's
a problem because they're living in the bubble of DC
(27:23):
or the bubble of consulting class. Not to say, obviously
that Biden Inherris didn't do great things. I'm a strong Democrat.
I believe Democratic Party looks out for people. But we
failed voters this cycle, and we allowed Donald Trump to
get back into the White House, and he is going
to do real harm on poor working class in people
who we care about, like immigrants.
Speaker 7 (27:43):
Put food on our table.
Speaker 1 (27:44):
Let's get to a call. Ken is calling from Nashville, Tennessee.
Ken What do you think the Democrats should do to
appeal to the working class.
Speaker 17 (27:53):
Yeah, it's the first and foremost problem is that the
playbook today is the same it was in nineteen sixty eight.
In sixty eight, Lyndon Johnson doesn't run, Hubert Humphrey takes over.
There are a ton of celebrities backing Hubert Humphrey, Rocker,
Tommy James, They go, Will, let's get him because we
(28:15):
need to have the young vote. It's the same thing
that happened this year. It's an old playbook. It does
not work. You're not going to get the middle class
and those who are in need to come to vote
for your candidate because you've got John bon Jovie on
stage or Beyonce. Nobody cares about that. And I'm a
professional musician, nobody cares about that. I've run three campaigns
(28:37):
for Democrats in this state. I cannot even get any
congressman or congresswoman to call me back ever, because they don't.
What they will do is send you an email and
say we got your message. Hey, we're a little low
on funds, send us some money.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
That's what did you make a five dollars contribution right
now on Ken, Thank you for that, and you've set
up Tolliver for like any kind of you can say.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Now, Tommy James, I'm voting for Kid Rock.
Speaker 3 (29:03):
Okay, that's where my vote is.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Telliver. I know some messages are coming in online.
Speaker 3 (29:08):
Yeah, we got a lot of them. So Laura and
Greeley says Democrats need one liners, Democrats need more one liners.
I agree with that, John and Chicago Rights. I personally
don't think Trump and his cronies will help, but I
have vast sympathies for people who think that the nanny
state has crept into every aspect of our lives, and
their intrusive policies, from very poorly thought out green energy
to ineffective DEI strategies have rightfully driven people to have
(29:31):
to pick any alternative.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
You know.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
It's that is a perfect segue, Tolliver, because the idea
of the messaging being the problem is something that has
been around for a long time for Democrats.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Yeah, and that's something we've heard before. Here's some criticism
of Hillary Clinton's ability to appeal to working class white
voters in twenty sixteen from none other than Joe Biden.
Speaker 18 (29:52):
There's been a shift in a focus now that we
got the car out of the ditch and on the
road and running on really focusing on the real inequities
that exist and still exists for working class, middle class
people who are left behind. And uh, And what happened
was that wasn't the central part of the campaign moving
forward in my view now. I said at the convention,
(30:13):
when I introduced Hillery and praised her, I said, we
don't show enough respect to that group that in fact
has been left behind.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
That as you can hear, Tulliver is Joe Biden from
a long time ago, twenty sixteen, that's when that was vintage. Yes,
we'll be right back with more of your calls on
the middle.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
This is the Middle.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
I'm Jeremy Hobson, and this hour we're asking you what
could Democrats do to appeal to the working class. You
can call us at eight four four four Middle that's
eight four four four six four.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Three three five three.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
You can also reach out at Listen to the Middle
dot com. I'm joined by journalists and author Sarah Smarsh
and Nebraska Democratic Party Chair Jane Kleb And before we
go back to the phones, Sarah one way of looking
at the select is that it was about inflation first
and foremost. That's something that's been happening around the world
since the pandemic, and parties that are in power have
(31:08):
been in trouble everywhere. What do you say to people
who say the Democrats don't have a problem with the
working class, they're just getting the blowback for inflation that
has hit the working class harder than anyone else.
Speaker 9 (31:19):
Well, I would say to that that, I think the
moment at which we find ourselves is a culmination of
decades of the Democratic Party kind of drifting away from
its original core identity in supporting working class folks. So, yes,
every election is a reflection of more recent times, but
(31:41):
there's been a deep shift and these sorts of trends
of specifically working class folks, first the white ones, and
now also people of color within that socioeconomic strata moving
away from the Democratic Party. And just in case it
doesn't come up by way of any other questions, let's
just let's just point out that, regardless of party, a
(32:02):
lot of good and decent people who are working within
that system, their hands are tied by the amount of money,
corporate money, big money, big billionaire money that is in
politics because of citizens United, and so long as that
is guiding the ship of our government. A lot of
(32:23):
these conversations that we're having are just sort of getting
at the edges of the true and primary cause of
what people are and are not able to do with.
The levers of are often very wonderful and enviewable democracy.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Let's go to Bob, who's in Overland Park, Kansas. Bob,
welcome to the middle. Your thoughts on what the Democrats
should do to appeal to the working class.
Speaker 19 (32:50):
Well, I agree with the last comment that it's been
decades since this problem has been building up. The Republicans
have spent the last forty to fifty years with think
tanks and academic position papers and the telecommunication infrastructure they have,
(33:12):
and they've convinced everybody that the solution to everything is
the free market and deregulate and get rid of government
and lower taxes. And no matter what people say, now,
they've got this in their head. So you can't even
raise taxes on billionaires now without people getting upset. And
(33:36):
the Democrats have got to start planning and changing so
that they can change the public awareness of the problems
we have where we've got a country of private opulence
and public squalor. And it's just appalling that we've had
this democratic acquiescence to all these things that have gone
(33:59):
on for the past thirty forty years, where they've allowed
deregulation and for example, we got rid of the U
in the radio, we got rid of the fairness doctrine.
So we've got all these terrible things going out that
people listen to all day, and deregulating the financial industry,
(34:22):
we've got levels of economic inequality that's just historic.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And I think I think we've got your point there.
Let me take that to Jane Cleb and ask me.
He says democratic acquiescence to what Republicans have been doing
for many years. It sounds like he's saying they're just
not fighting back enough.
Speaker 8 (34:44):
Yeah, and obviously we do need to fight back because
let's look at Donald Trump's cabinet. It is literally filled
with now billionaires, and he's certainly not a reflection of
the working or middle class with the people that he
is elevating and said, anywhere can people that if your
corporation and you give a billion dollars to make things
(35:04):
in America that he's going to do away with any regulation.
And I get that that is this populist message that
is going to cut through to some people.
Speaker 7 (35:13):
But what that is going to mean is going to be.
Speaker 8 (35:15):
More pollution for communities that are going to be left behind,
you know, not unsimilar to all of us not doing
good by folks who live near fossil fuels where we
need fossil fuels. Of course, when you turn your lights
on that you can see and we can build America,
but we never did right by the workers who were
(35:36):
in the coal mines.
Speaker 7 (35:37):
We never did right by the communities whose land and
water were polluted.
Speaker 8 (35:41):
And so we have this major responsibility in front of
us now as Democrats, where we can put forward proposals
and ideas to reform America as an energy system so
communities are actually made whole while we're still making energy.
Speaker 7 (35:54):
That's what we are going to do.
Speaker 8 (35:56):
I mean, there's a whole new generation of Democrats, myself
included Ken Martin who's running for the d are we
are scared of sitting and waiting for the boomers to
let us lead. We're basically pushing our way through to
the front. So we do start to change our message.
We do start to reflect more than one person on
the convention stage, which was John Russell. We had one
(36:17):
working class person who wore a snapshirt and a haircut
that working class people visually recognize that has got to change.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Let's go to Hannah, who is in Philadelphia.
Speaker 2 (36:29):
Hannah, welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 20 (36:31):
Hey, thanks, Jeremy. Yeah, I'm from Philly. So one of
the things I was thinking about was maybe we're ignoring
the fact that not that we did something wrong with
our messaging, but we're ignoring the fact that the candidate
wasn't just appealing to the vast majority of the working class.
For instance. I mean, and I'm totally cool with you know, I.
Speaker 21 (36:53):
Wanted a woman.
Speaker 20 (36:54):
I didn't you know, of color would have been fine too.
I was a supporter of Barack Obama. But I think
that the male factor is really important to traditional people.
You know, the working class tends to be more traditional,
and I think we're kind of ignoring that and thinking
that it's the messaging or the things we did long
when really might have just been the candidate.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
It's an interesting point, and I'm glad that we have
an all female panel to respond to that. Sarah smarsh
I mean, she's making the point that maybe the working class,
more traditional didn't want a woman candidate, and that that
was one of the problems.
Speaker 2 (37:30):
What do you think about that.
Speaker 9 (37:33):
I think there might be some religious factions of our
electorate for whom that would be true. The working class folks,
I know, regardless of gender, regardless of race. I'm gonna
be honest with you. Of course, sexism and misogyny remain
rife in our society, and I don't actually believe that
that was the main reason that a lot of working
class voters didn't connect with with the candidate.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
Okay, Aisha is with us from Chicago. Aisha, what do
you think?
Speaker 10 (38:01):
Hi, thank you for taking my call. I was telling
a producer. I really think that there we we've this
has been discussed right. There is a listening problem within
the party. There is a communicating problem within the party,
and I think that's because the party no longer knows
the middle the working class. I think they are. There
is a vast different or distance that's been put between
(38:23):
the party and the representative than what actually exists out
here on the ground. And that's showing up in one
way that I noticed during the campaign season that it
showed up. It's even the language that's being used. How
can you talk to someone who works a teamster that
(38:43):
works in a factory about the ax that they pay
when you're talking at economic times? Do they even understand
what you're talking about? How can you display how your
policy will affect them when they don't even know how
policy works. So knowing your audience is one of the
ways that you communicate with your audience effectively, and that
(39:04):
is not happening in the party, not at all.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
Well, so let me ask you.
Speaker 20 (39:08):
That majority of people, sir.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
Did you hear messaging from Trump that reached you, even
if maybe you didn't agree with it, then you did absolutely.
Speaker 10 (39:20):
Here I mean, here's what I mean when I say
yes and no. To be clear, I did not agree
with I did not vote for him. But it was
very easy for me to communicate with my mother that
Trump is saying, or a candidate generally, is saying, we
want to make your streets safe, we want to bring
your prices down, you know, just straight to the point messaging.
(39:43):
Whether he was lying or not, whether it was true
or even possible or not, does not matter to my mother.
It was understood. Now the next phase in the conversation
may be the how the this is going to take
ten years not tomorrow, that you know, be a additional,
more high level of thought, more educational educated conversation. She's
(40:08):
never taken an economy class, doesn't know economics class, so
she doesn't know where that works. But she did understand
this to the point. Yeah, it hits my pocket, it
hits my street, it hits my family messaging, and that's
where the Dems have a problem. Lastly, really quickly, I
just wanted to also mention something that her entire friend
group said to me. They felt like his messaging was
(40:31):
so effective to them because he had fight in him
for the people that the Dems have not shown in
the years generations.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Interesting.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Thank you for taking my cast Aisha, thank you for calling.
And Jane Kleve your response to that means another person
saying it's the messaging and that the Democrats are not
doing it in an effective way with the working class.
Speaker 8 (40:53):
Yeah, I mean Trump is very effective of coming off
as a fighter and sticking with his folks and never
backing down even if we think his position is not
morally right, and any other adjective that you want to
put on it. He has done a masterful job at that.
We also have messengers like that on our side. It's
why you hear voters say that they both like Ted
(41:15):
Cruz and AOC because they're both kind of taking it
to the people, or that they like Trump and AOC
because they stand with the people and they're, you know,
take sticking it to the man.
Speaker 7 (41:27):
So it's a lesson that we have to learn as Democrats.
Speaker 8 (41:30):
I also want to make sure that you know it's
very clear that we as a party fell into this
trap that posters were telling us for the last ten
years that the rising American electorate, that was the words
that they put on it was going to lock in
Democratic majorities for the next thirty years. And they basically
(41:51):
were meaning young communities of color were going to be
with us on issues like abortion and other issue and
that did not pan out because we did not listen
to working class and middle class voters across race who
were saying, wait a second, I actually care more about housing, healthcare,
public education, jobs.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Tolliver some messages coming in online.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
Yeah, First, I want to say people are loving my
horn tuting comment, but house loving it in the messages.
Peter from Fort Worth says no amount of messaging can
overcome all of his lies. When Trump outright lies them,
do not only have to call out the light to respond,
they also have to give a better alternative. And the
combo is too much to message cleanly. Think of the
eating dogs or cats line, or the Biden killed oil
(42:35):
and gas and that's why gas prices are high. I'm
gonna stop there because you know, we're running out of time.
But I thought that was a nice pressure.
Speaker 2 (42:41):
That's great, and we do have another call from Detroit.
Tony is with us. Tony, welcome to the middle. Go ahead.
Speaker 21 (42:49):
Yeah, But just my background. You know, I'm a black
man married to a white woman, So I got four
biracial daughters, and they're all kind of educated and wrong
with my my wife and like our conversations, our day
to day conversations, they just couldn't identify. And I think
that's the problem. The Democratic Party is becoming a more
(43:12):
educated party or a more I want to see. You know,
it's a college educated group that does not identify with
the working class like me. And my daughters would go
back and forth and they kept talking about things that
their dad, a retired carpenter, and I was like, Listen,
I swung a hammer for thirty five years, and everything
(43:32):
that you guys are talking about us working cast people
do not identify with that, you know. And I mean
like it was a lot of fluff. I mean, Kamala
would be, you know, going someplace talking about fried chicken
and hot sauce and collar greens. We don't want to
hear about that stuff. I mean, we want to know
what are you gonna do to strengthen the union and
(43:52):
strengthen the working class. And like my Carpenter's union, we
supported Trump as a you know, as a reunion. We
threw our hat behind Trump. Just felt like I did
not you know, I'm a conservative Democrat, but I still
couldn't vote for him, you know, And just a lot
of the things that he was saying that I thought
(44:13):
was racist, you know, about people eating their pets and
things like that, which were dog whistles to me. And
then even when I brought that kind of stuff up
to my daughters, you know, they felt like the voters
was too smart and then they were gonna look beyond that.
And I kept saying, listen, every day, working class two
point on construction site, that's what's being discussed you know,
(44:35):
nobody's saying that we're we're too smart to look beyond that.
They're saying, you know, the immigrants are taking our jobs,
they're eating our pets, and come out, it doesn't care
about our well being.
Speaker 1 (44:48):
Interesting interesting points, Tony. I'm going to sneak in one
more call here. Beth is in rural Minnesota.
Speaker 22 (44:54):
Beth, go ahead, yeah, thank you, and God's bass that
gentlemen for still voting for the Democratic Party. Everyone in
my family besides myself and my spouse did not because
they are law and order people. They were freaked out
by riots that happened admittedly the last time President Trump
(45:15):
was in office outside of Minnesota, which is a solid
hour from where we are, but the Democrats kept calling
them dumb and they couldn't take it, and they just
felt like President Trump despite everything, despite first generation immigrants
on my mom's side and me being a second generation immigrant,
they still voted for President Trump. And so please, please
(45:36):
National Democratic Party change your messaging. We are smart, we're rural,
but we're educated. I have a PhD. Right, so it
has to stop. You have to get near messaging and
stop calling people dumb.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Beth, thank you, Jam Club I'm gonna go to you
on that because obviously you've written an entire book about
how democrats can reach out to rural America.
Speaker 8 (45:57):
Yeah, you know, if we actually just listened to royal
folks and address the concerns that they have and start
talking about the things that they want. You know, a
lot of royal folks want right to repair, They want
our public schools protected, they want to make sure that
they're you know, my doctor in my town is literally
servicing women from fifty counties to have their babies at
our hospital. These are the things that actually matter to people,
(46:21):
not if there's a trans athlete that wants to play
in sports on a different team. And so we have
to fight back, and we have to fight back without
gloves on and be tough and stop treating people like
they're stupid. Every single caller that you had on today
is smarter than every single polster I listen to at
a debrief home.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
That is a that's a viral moment. We should cut
that out and put it on social media.
Speaker 1 (46:47):
That's very interesting, Sarah Smarsh, I'm going to give you
the last word, and I'm going to throw you a
little bit of a curveball because as we go to error,
there is a story that is just all over the
place about the murder of this CEO of United health Care.
The suspect a twenty six year old who in many
parts of the internet is being treated as a hero
for taking matters into his own hands to go after
(47:08):
a leader of the healthcare industry. How do you see
that story in the context of what we're talking about
this hour, the working class. Is it surprising to you
what's going on with that one?
Speaker 9 (47:19):
It's not surprising. And speaking of class, that of course
is the crux of that situation, the murder of health
insurance executive representing the deserved and deeply pained grievance of
(47:40):
all sorts of folks who aren't basically wealthy. That's the
middle class on down. You can have insurance and still
struggle to get the care that you need. My understanding
is the shooter even came from an affluent background himself,
and yet struggled in the face of that barbaric industry
and so historic wealth inequality corporations doing their best to
(48:05):
control our government. And we're not talking about class in
the right way or enough, And it's it's we're at
a boiling point, and I hope that we we find
a better way to come together and have these hard
discussions so that we see less less political violence. But
it sure isn't surprising, that.
Speaker 2 (48:24):
Is Sarah Smarsh.
Speaker 1 (48:24):
Her book is called Bone of the Bone Essays on
America by a daughter of the working class and Nebraska
Democratic Party chair.
Speaker 2 (48:31):
Jane Club has been with us as well. Thank you
both so.
Speaker 1 (48:34):
Much, Thanks Jeremy, And next week a show you're not
gonna want to miss. We're gonna be asking what made
you happy in twenty twenty four and what you've had
it with? And I'm so excited to say our guests,
we're going to be the amazing host of the I've
Had It podcast.
Speaker 3 (48:49):
I love that you can call us or leave a
message at eight four four Middle, that's eight four four
or four six four three three five three, or you
can reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Or you can also sign up for our free weekly news.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
The Middle is brought to you by Long Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media and Arvana Illinois and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander Samburmisdas and John barth Our. Intern
is on a Cadesslar. Our technical director is Jason Croft.
Thanks to our podcast audience, our satellite radio listeners, and
the more than four hundred and twenty public radio stations
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to listen to the Middle, I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
I'll talk to you next week.
Host
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