June 13, 2025 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we ask you what your thoughts are on Trump's so-called "Big Beautiful Bill." Jeremy is joined by political analyst Chuck Todd, host of The Chuck ToddCast, and NPR National Political Correspondent Mara Liasson. DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus calls from around the country. #congress #house #senate #spending #debt #bigbeautifulbill #megabill #deficit #medicaid
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our
house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver. It is good to be
back after last week. I was on the final AIDS
life Cycle Ride, cycling almost six hundred miles from San
Francisco to Los Angeles. Now I trained for the ride, Tolliver,
I did not train for the camping, and I'm not
a camper.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
It turns down, yeah, neither of my I mean, how
are your thighs feeling.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
My thighs are okay.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I still can't really feel the tips of some of
my fingers from gripping the handlebars. But anyway, a nice
thing about doing that ride was I actually got to
take a little break from the news. I did find
out at one of the rest stops that Elon Musk
and Donald Trump were fighting with each other after Muster
so called be exactly at.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
The big beautiful bill.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
He called it a disgusting abomination. Now, the bill, for
people who haven't been paying attention, would do a lot
of things. It would cut taxes for the wealthy. It
would make cuts to Medicaid, that's how health care for
the poor. It would eliminate clean energy tax credits, among
many other things. Here is Trump responding to Musk in
a meeting with reporters in the Oval Office.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
I'm very disappointed because Elon knew the inner workings of
this bill better than almost anybody sitting here, better than
you people.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
He knew everything about it. He had no problem with it.
All of a sudden he had a problem.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So the thing about this show is you don't have
to be an almost trillionaire to tell us what you think.
There is no income requirement to call in, and we
want to hear from you this hour because this bill
could could become law in a matter of weeks, and
if it does, it is going to affect all of us. So, Tolliver,
can you give people the phone number and the ways
to reach us.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Please?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, you can call us at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
You can also write to us at Listen to the
Middle dot com. You can also comment on our live
stream on YouTube or TikTok or every single place on earth. Okay,
I'm watching them all.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Joining us this hour.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Political analyst Chuck Todd, host of The Chuck Podcast, Chuck Todd,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Thanks for having me, Jeremy, I'm excited and also a DJ.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
I've not appeared with them.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yes, well, I mean that's the key to the show
is a DJ. Yes, and NPR National political correspondent Marillason
is with us as well.
Speaker 6 (02:13):
Mar.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Great to have you on the show as well.
Speaker 6 (02:15):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
So before we get to the phones, Mara, let me
start with you.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
When you think about all the bills that you have
covered going through Congress, how significant is this one in
terms of the impacts that would have on Americans.
Speaker 6 (02:30):
Well, I think it's really significant because of the size,
because of the amount of trillions of dollars it adds
to the deficit. It's very similar in its goals to
past Republican bills, past bills that Trump has passed, where
they're skewed to the wealthy, high earners, high income individuals
(02:51):
get most of the benefits, low income individuals pay most
of the costs, and it incorporates all of Trump's goals,
and that's not dissimilar to past big reconciliation bills. I
just think this one is on steroids. I mean, I
don't think we've ever had a bill in front of
Congress that would add this much to the deficit, and
(03:12):
that's why it's causing the small amounts of Republican pushback
that you see.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Chuck Todd, there's so much in this bill.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
What are the things that stand out to you that
would have the biggest impact on Americans.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Well, the problem with this bill is that the biggest
benefit is something that the public already has, which is
the tax cut. Right is, because this bill is about
extending the tax cuts. And this is what I think
is going to make this bill very hard politically to sell.
I think it's already been defined by what they're doing
(03:45):
with Medicaid. And look, I've mar and I've done this
a long time. The argument about what is a cut
and what is slowing the growth has been sort of
the bane of the existence of the left versus right
on like how you calculate on what you call a cut.
But it's pretty it's been pretty well defined, and it
doesn't help the president that you have Republican senators calling
(04:07):
them cuts in the medicaids part. Right, Josh Holly has
said that, Lisa Murkowski has said that, and I think
that that's what. Look, I think the part that the
White House probably the thing that is the newest thing
would be the additional money on border security, which is
what they keep emphasizing now. But I'm very skeptical. Even
(04:28):
if this bill has positive you know, it has the
positive impacts that they hope and pray happens with the economy,
it's not going to be in time for twenty six right.
Bill Clinton learned that lesson his big economic plan his
first year was a tough vote party line, and it
(04:48):
had zero It had somewhat you could argue negative impact
for him in the near term politically, and then it
kicked in and it was deemed as positive for the economy.
Wall Street loved it, etc. So I think this, I
just think this bill is going to be impossible for
Republicans to sell as a net positive. At best, maybe
they can neutralize it, because again it's tough to tell somebody, hey,
(05:10):
if we didn't do this, you would have had a
tax hike. There's no new goodie. And I think that's
what makes this very difficult for the administration to sell politically.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And I think back to the Obama Care passing in
two thousand and nine and then the Obama presidency just
getting crushed in the midterms in twenty ten as well. Mara,
how important is it that Elon Musk came out, at
least originally and said this is a disgusting abomination. Does
Trump need Elon Musk's support to get this through?
Speaker 6 (05:40):
You know, under in the past we would say, Wow,
the richest person in the world, the biggest backer of
the president, he doesn't like this bill. That's really going
to make a difference. I think it makes a very
small difference. This bill, I think, is going to pass,
just like all the other bills like this, where people
sell it saying if you don't vote for this bill,
it's the end of the Trump president. You know, you
(06:01):
load this up. And then what Chuck is talking about
is how hard it's going to be to sell, not
how hard it's going to be to pass it through Congress,
but how hard it's going to be to make it
a political positive for the Republicans. So I think that
among a certain group of voters that actually were very
important to Trump, young male you want to call them bros,
(06:22):
they love Elon Musk and it does matter what he says.
But there's so much else going on. We're so tribalized
now that I don't know how much of an impact
that would happen. Also, those voters who did come out
to vote for Donald Trump in twenty twenty four are
not necessarily the same voters who come out and vote
in a midterm. They're infrequent, less frequent voters.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, Chuck Todd Mara talks about all the other things
that are going on right now. We just as we
go to air, a US senator was manhandled by law
enforcement Alex Padilla when he tried to interrupt a press
conference by the Homeland Security Secretary CHRISTI Nome about to
be this big military parade in Washington and hundreds of
protests around the country. Trump has brought in the military
(07:07):
in Los.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Angeles to deal with protests.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Does any of that have Does it play into what's
happening in Congress when it comes to getting this megabill passed.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
I almost feel like they're they're no. I don't want
to say it's totally unrelated, But oddly, the more polarized
the conversation is about immigration, the more it might. I've
talked to some congressional Republicans who say, Hey, this standoff
in LA actually has rallied the party together. So I
(07:40):
guess you could make you could make that case, but
can I just do a what if?
Speaker 7 (07:45):
On here?
Speaker 5 (07:45):
I had a about a forty minute conversation last weekend
with Steve Bannon, and Bannon was clearly disappointed that that
the President didn't go for the tax hike idea, meaning
they could have a tax hike on say, anybody that
made five million or more, and then connected it and
said this is what's paying for no taxes on tips?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Right?
Speaker 5 (08:09):
And you know what Bannon was envisioning is that they
could really cement the idea that they're the working class
party the other you know, how do you you would
just gum up the Democratic talking points that hey, they
are always for tax cuts for the rich. But that's
the problem that Trump has in that a majority of
his supporters are in that working class cohort. But that
(08:33):
isn't where a majority of elected Republicans are yet. As
my friend Brad Todd likes to say about Republicans, he says,
and he's a Republican strategy. He says, they were put
on earth to cut taxes. That's what Republicans, you know,
and the certainly in our lifetime in the politics at
mar and I've covered for the last couple of generations
that has been the case. But it is interesting this
(08:53):
shift here that is potentially there, which is what also
I think why a tax cut in general isn't isn't
just the easy, the easy elexir for the Trump base
these days.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 6 (09:08):
The other thing to remember, you listed all those times
that presidents have passed big bills and then paid for
them politically in the next midterm. Don't forget Trump in
the first term, it happened to him too. He passed
a bill with a lot of the tax cuts that
he's now trying to extend, and the public didn't like it.
They thought it was a big giveaway to billionaires and
to the rich, and he also suffered in his first midterm.
(09:29):
So I think that's something that could happen. The problem
with Steve Bannon, Steve Bannon takes this stuff about a
working class party seriously. You know, he does more than
pay lip service to it. He actually wants Republicans to
walk the walk now that they have become a different party.
But when the White House floated, and I don't think
that they pushed put much muscle behind it, but they
(09:51):
did float this idea maybe we'll raise taxes for some
of the highest earners, and that will help pay for
the tax cuts for people who work for tipped wages
or or over time, et cetera. But they got pushed
back in Congress, and they didn't really try because it
wasn't really a priority for the president.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Let me ask you one more thing before we take
a quick break and get to some calls, because the
lines are filling up. But Chuck Todd, does it surprise
you that this is given that you think this is
going to pass. It's clearly going to have a lot
of effects on everybody, including knocking many people off of
their Medicaid. That it's not getting more coverage right now, Well, look.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
It's the sausage portion of congressional bill making, I you know.
And oh, by the way, there's so many other things.
I mean, you talked about what was happening just in
the next in the last twenty four hours, last twenty
four minutes, you left out Israel's attack on a lot
right like that, and that is going to be also
so I you know, I don't want to say it's
a bandwidth issue, but sort of Congress plotting along doing this,
(10:53):
I think once it's passed you'll see more coverage of
the impact of it. And I will say this, I
don't think there's so many Republicans, I think on Capitol
Hill that don't fully appreciate how the public's perception of
medicaid has changed. When I first started covering politics, medicaid
was sort of thought of as welfare, right, it was
sort of put in the same category. That is not
(11:16):
the experience of medicaid. I mean, I'll just you know,
my own grandmother is still ninety eight years old, ran
out of money. She's on Medicaid because that's and if
she wasn't, you know, my mom and her brother and
sisters would would be bankrupt trying to take care of her.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Medicaid is millions of Americans. Absolutely, of any Americans. Now,
I don't think everybody.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Let me just say, let me just remind our listeners
that you can reach us at eight four to four
four Middle and Tulliver. Needless to say, this bill is
not likely to get any Democratic votes in the Senate.
There are some Republicans who are opposed as well.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, Kentucky Senator Rand Paul's one of them. Here he
is sharing his thoughts on CBS's face The nation.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Well, the math doesn't really add up.
Speaker 8 (11:52):
One of the things this big and beautiful bill is
is it's a vehicle for increasing spending for the military
and for the border. It's about three hundred and twenty
billillion dollars in new spending. To put that in perspective,
that's more than all the doze cuts that we found
so far.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
And in the end, the way you add it up
to see.
Speaker 8 (12:07):
If it actually is going to save money or ad
money is how much debt are they going.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
To borrow five trillion over two years? Enormous amount?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
I mean, he's right, Tolliver, it does add to the deficit.
This bill man not a deficit reducer.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Math ain't mathon as the kids saying, we'll.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Be right back with your calls on the Middle. This
is the Middle on Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning
in the Middle as a national call in show, we're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking what your thoughts are on Trump's megabill. Tolliver,
what is the number to call in?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three. We can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on all social media.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I'm joined by political analyst Chuck Todd, host of the
Chuck Toodcast in NPR, national political correspondent Marillason, and let's
get to the phones because the lines are full. Jude
is calling from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Jude, go ahead with
your thoughts about the megabill.
Speaker 9 (13:07):
Yes, thank you. I would just like to say it's
an honor to be on with this panel. But I
think that the coverage in the mainstream media only reflects
the bias media coverage against Donald Trump and all things
that Donald Trump wants to do. There's a lot of
information that has been left out. For example, the Medicaid
cuts are two illegal migrants who are on the Medicaid
(13:31):
system illegally, So those cuts will will not hurt Medicaid,
those will actually save it. When Chuck Todd spoke about
his ninety eight year old brandmother, well do you know
there's a lot of funds from Medicaid that are being
spats on people who are here illegally. Now that they
are being sent sent back to other nations. They won't
(13:55):
won't need to be on those on those rolls. That's
just one example. Another example, since when you talk about
the big tax cuts, right, okay, well, you're not taking
into account the revenue that's going to be generated from
those tax cuts. So usually when there's a tax cut,
there's economic growth that follows it, because I have never
heard of a poor person given someone else jobs. It's
(14:16):
always the wealthy.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Right, So if you give you let me ask you
in the first in the first Trump administration, that didn't
happen with the tax cuts.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
They didn't pay for themselves through economic growth.
Speaker 9 (14:30):
Well, okay, I will say say this though, as a
student of history, I'm sure you would agree that when
Ronald Reagan gave those those tax cuts, did uh and
and and so you know, you just never never know.
It's not childlin Stone.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
This is a.
Speaker 9 (14:45):
Largely social science and so you just you know, there's
no guarantee. But I will say this. You know this
is this is this is basic.
Speaker 6 (14:57):
Uh.
Speaker 9 (14:57):
You know, when the Republicans get in, they want to
give out tax cuts. When the Democrats get in, they
want to give out money, like when President Obama's is
when he gave out out money and it was the.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Same I got, I've got it.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I think it sounds like you're in favor of this bill.
Thank you for that call, Chuck Todd. One of the
things that he brought up there was Medicaid going to
undocumented immigrants. There is a lot of people that would
contest that that is happening in any meaningful way. It's
illegal for people who are here, who are here illegally
to collect Medicaid benefits. But that is certainly something that
(15:34):
Jude is not the only person that believes that.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
It's Look, it's how Republicans are selling this right. They're
trying to say, we're not cutting Medicaid, We're trying to
save medicaid. I take the caller's point.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
I hope he's right, right.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
I hope that's that's what it is, But it doesn't
appear to be. The numbers that the Republicans are claiming
there doesn't appear to add up. But we're Look, I
think the caller made a fair point. Sometimes he is
right about the Reagan tax cuts, and we're and you
can go back into the Kennedy tax cuts, but in
both of those cases, we had much higher tax rates,
(16:09):
and so the impact really did have an economic impact.
And this goes back. This is not a new tax cut,
this is a continuation. It isn't really juicing the economy.
So I don't Yeah, I'd be surprised if there's growth
connected to this.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Now.
Speaker 6 (16:25):
The problem is the problem is that every single independent agency,
every single independent interpreter who looks at these things and
tries to sorry, that's dog has come out with the
safe conclusion and it won't save money, that it will
cut people off of medicaid. And the other thing that
(16:46):
Chuck made a really good point earlier about how medicaid
has changed. It's not just a program for the poor.
And you know why it changed because Obamacare was actually
a gigantic expansion of Medicaid, which the federal govern and
took over like ninety of the costs for the states.
And that was that is really what Obamacare was. It
(17:07):
was getting rid of a ban on pre existing conditions
to stop you from getting healthcare, creating these marketplaces, but
mostly it was a giant expansion of Medicaid.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
Yeah, I think your dog has a strong opinion about this.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
He does.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
I'm sorry, I think all of our dogs are going
to start talking to each other. I'm worried about that
right now, might just be quiet. Okay, Alan is calling
from Ogden, Utah. Hi Alan, what do you think of
the so called big beautiful bill?
Speaker 10 (17:35):
Oh?
Speaker 11 (17:36):
Thanks for having me on. If I could just make
a few points, I would be so happy. First, if
I could touch on the last callers comment. If tax
cuts went to business and businesses passed on those savings
by increasing wages, that would be great for a country.
(17:56):
I'm from Augden, Utah. The stickers that I see and
the t shirts that I see people wearing are dirty hands,
clean money. They drive huge trucks, have McMansions, boats, trailers,
and those people think that Medicaid recipients are on welfare.
You should just work harder. I'm all for of that
(18:17):
if the wages are up there Now. When I call
Blake Moore his office and say, well, why were you
asleep during the bill? His office responds blakemore tends to
think that this bill will be deficit neutral. Well, if
it's deficit neutral by cutting spending to the poor and
(18:40):
giving benefits back to the ridge, why even do it?
And I think the thing that people need to be
sold on is that if you're making one hundred grand,
two hundred grand, go up to five hundred grand, you're
not getting any benefits from this. It's the wealthiest of
the wealthy people make it undergrand. Yeah, Alan, I would
(19:04):
like to understand.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Let me let me, let me take let me take
that thought of it Allan, thank you very much for
that call that we can only get a couple of
points in per person. But Mara, you know, he he
brings up this idea that I'm sure we're going to
hear about that that this is this is for the wealthy,
and that Chuck brought up. You know that even Steve
Bannon didn't didn't think that that was such a great idea.
Speaker 6 (19:25):
Yeah, I mean that is going to be where the
Republicans are going to have trouble selling this. This is
what happened to them in Trump's first term. They passed
a bill very similar to this, smaller, but the benefits
are skewed to the wealthy. Every single Wall Street company
that's looked at this, the Congressional Budget Office wherever you
want to go for some kind of an independent analysis
of the actual costs and benefits from this bill says
(19:49):
it's skewed to the wealthy, and that's where Republicans are
going to have trouble selling this. I don't think they're
going to have as much trouble passing it as they're
going to have convincing people that it's good for everyone.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Okay, Daniel is calling from San Antonio, Texas. Hi, Daniel,
go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
Hi.
Speaker 10 (20:09):
I'll make my point as quickly as I can. You know,
you share on time. Number one, I tell all the
people that didn't vote that would support the Democrats, this
is what we get. And number two, the GOP and
Donald Trump, they're the party of false premises. A while ago,
that man Jude from Louisiana said that all these immigrants
(20:32):
and whatever is on Medicaid. That's not true. I get
twenty three dollars a month from food stamps, only twenty three.
I'm lower middle class, and you know how hard it
was to get that. How many IDs I practic three
to take them a pint of blood and my first
born's pine of book. It's unbelievable. So the immigrants do
(20:53):
not get medicaid. That's DS and the Party of Republics
as false memers. They lie and they run they're going
to score a touchdown and before anybody knows, wait, big bumply,
But that's what they're arguing about.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Well, Daniel, are you worried? Are you worried about your
Snap benefits? About food stamps?
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (21:12):
I went to Catholic charity today the first time in
my life to get food, and my neighbors did too.
We're nowhere middle classes, a nice little neighborhood, but people
are going to churches to get food. They're very worried
about it. I'm very worried about my health benefits. My
nephews on Medicaid, they're not proving anything for him right now.
He is disabled and he's very very worried about that too.
(21:34):
This is hurting most Americans and they just don't care.
They care about themselves and their pockets. But one day
we will all meet God, and I sure hate to
be next to Donald Trumping when he's at that point.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Daniel, Thank you for that call, Chuck Todd. It kind
of reminds me when you hear from Daniel who says,
you know, he's collecting Snap benefits, he's worried about losing them.
That they're you know, in the immigration that have been
going on. There are people who are legal who are
getting caught up in this that they shouldn't be, but
they are getting caught up in this. And somebody like
(22:08):
Daniel who's you know, rightfully collecting his snap benefits and
is worried that this bill you throw the baby out
with the bathwater, and some people that should be getting
the benefits might lose them.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
Look, and I also should note there's mixed status families
out there right, some that are here in this country
legally and some that are not. Where this gets very complicated.
How do you decide who's getting the benefit right on
something like this? And so look, this is what I
think makes it. I mean, I go back to what
Josh Holly. You know, Josh Holly is one of the
(22:38):
more interesting senators that I like to follow because he
really seems to understand who his voters are now, right,
and he actually tis to his credit. I mean, it's
why he's won twice now. He does understand who his
electorate is, and this is where he's been. He doesn't
think they should be touching any part of Medicaid, like,
not one bit, because you know, here's the thing, even
(23:00):
if you're trying, you know, This goes back to I
remember when a Senator Mark Rubio launched those PPP loans
during COVID and somebody said, hey, shouldn't there be some
sort of and it was like they decided not to
have any sort of extra check to make sure because
the assumption was we got to hurry up and get
the money out. There's going to be some graft, but
(23:21):
hopefully it's minimal, hopefully it's within reason. But at the
end of the day, you want to hurry up and
get the benefits out. And I think that's the situation
that a Josh Holly's worried about that. Whatever you're doing
to try to, you know, you somehow make sure somebody
who's undocumented is not getting a benefit, you may end
up slowing the whole process down, and those that needed
(23:44):
and have earned it or have qualified for it, suddenly
they're getting you know, it takes longer to get the benefit,
and then that will feel like a cut to some books.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Tolliver, what is coming in online, tons of stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
So Albert says, so many of the representatives voted for
this without and they even reading the bill talk about
the blind leading the blind, And then Albert I would
you want to bring up brought up AI and how
I think the bill says that you know, we can't
our state and can't regulate it, thank you, so.
Speaker 6 (24:11):
States can't regulate it.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
That I think that is getting traction. That is getting
traction and tolliver. That is the whole The members of
Congress that admitted they didn't read the bill are the
ones that want to backtrack on that specific issue alone,
which is that feels like a total giveaway to the
big tech companies that hey, we will we will shield
you from any regulation from all fifty states, which would
(24:35):
be an unusual thing to do. And given the immediate
outcry that you're seeing. And I don't think any politician
left or right wants to get caught looking like they're
trying to protect big tech these days, I assume that
you know, raising the alarm bells about that provision probably
means it'll get struck out.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Well, and Mara, doesn't a provision like that not go
along with the idea of a reconciliation bill that's supposed
to be about budgetary things.
Speaker 6 (25:01):
Well, yes, and there is an arbiter in Congress who
decides if things fit the criteria of a reconciliation bill.
They're supposed to just be budgetary. But there's been an
effort among Republicans in the Senate to ignore Is it
the parliamentarian who does that? Who?
Speaker 5 (25:21):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (25:22):
Right, she decides whether something belongs in the reconciliation bill
or not. And the reason why presidents use reconciliation is
because you only need fifty one votes. It can't be filibustered,
it can be passed. You know, it can circumvent that.
So that'll be an interesting thing. If Senators really want
to keep a provision like that in, they're going to
(25:44):
have to ignore the parliamentarian and break through yet another
norm of our system of three coequal branches of government.
And we'll see if that happens. But you know, I
also think there's so many there's so many cross currents
of problems. I still think at the end this thing passes.
But don't forget about all those blue state Republicans who
(26:05):
want there to be a much higher cap on the
amount of taxes they can deduct state taxes they can
deduct from their federal taxes. And that's an little big caucus.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Right, Yes, let's go to Scott, who's in South Charleston,
West Virginia. Hi Scott, Welcome to the middle Go ahead, Yes.
Speaker 7 (26:24):
Thanks very much. I agree much about the tax cuts
the rich and medicaid and everything. I'm going to go
to another part of it. And one thing I heard
recently a good acronym for the bill is the one
Bad Betrayal Bill, a Democratic representative coin that. But whatever
I'd like to talk about is the energy tax credits
(26:45):
are needed to help solve climate change. And some of
the red state senators realize that the IRA bill was
carefully thawed out and the incentives are helping their red
state residents quite a bit. In West Virginia, of course,
is a red state, and we've had solar panels on
our house for two years now. We've gone from five
(27:07):
hundred dollars electric bills in the summer and winter down
to fourteen dollars connection charges be paid back in about
six to seven years. Our church just now this week
installed solar panels at my encouragement for it. We've got
two evs. We're trying to do everything we can. One
of those evs is now seven years old, one hundred
(27:28):
and thirty thousand miles. We're putting our money and effort
into where it counts, and I wish more people would,
but unfortunately, our PSC and the federal government has a
two hundred and fifty dollars year federal tax on evs
and our state has a two hundred dollars extra per
year tax. They're trying to drive people away from electric vehicles,
(27:51):
which are part of the solution to climate change over
the long term.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Scott, thank you for bringing that up. Yes, no, that's
a great point. And marl Ason, a lot of this
bill would kind of undo the Inflation Reduction Act that
was one of President Biden's big bills that put a
ton into it called the biggest climate change bill like
in the history of the world.
Speaker 6 (28:15):
Yeah, a lot of this undoes that I really would
be interested in hearing what the what the Josh Hollies
and Steve Bannons think about this, because, I mean, clean
energy doesn't seem very ideological or cultural, but there does
seem to be a kind of ideological culture war attitude.
If it's if people, if it's green, it must be woke.
And this bill undoes a lot of things that were
(28:37):
supposed to combat climate change. And just today the President
signed an executive order to undo California's efforts to set
standards for electric vehicles. So I think that this pretty
much ends the United States efforts to combat climate change.
And it's interesting to me that a lot of the
projects that the Inflation Reduction Act funded, and your caller
(29:01):
just mentioned them, we're in red states. Partially politically, Joe
Biden actually thought it was a good idea to spread
out the money and the IRA to red states, but
also because in red states you can get permits a
lot faster than in some blue states to build these projects.
So but a lot of those things are going to
be heard. But I still think it's kind of like
what we were talking about before. Just because a red
(29:22):
state is going to lose some funding and jobs from
some kind of a climate change project, that's not enough
to make that red state member or senator vote against
this bill.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Well, and just a note because I like to bring
this point up when we talk about red states.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
And blue states.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
More people voted for Donald Trump in Los Angeles County
than in all of Louisiana, just to put that out there.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Yes, we're all mixed everywhere we go. I Toliver Well,
one of.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
The one of the most contentious issues in this megabill
concerns the potential cuts as we've been talking about to
medicaid spending.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, and lawmakers have been getting an earful about that
at town home mee around the country. Iowa Republican Senator
Joni Ernst probably heard the most viral moment right here.
Speaker 12 (30:06):
So when you are arguing, when you are arguing about
illegals that are receiving medicaid benefits one point four million,
one point four they're not they are not eligible, so
they will be coming off. So people are not well.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
We all are going to die.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
So we're all going to die. Tolliver all, She's right,
we are all going to die. It's true.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yes, it's not really the most politically wise thing to
say to a group, but yes, that is that is
a true statement.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
The gasps really got me.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Oh boy. We'll be right back with more of the Middle.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. In this hour,
we're asking for your thoughts on Trump's megabill. You can
call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three five three. You
can also reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com.
I am joined by NPR national political correspondent mar Ellison
and Chuck Todd, host of the Chuck Todd Cast. Let's
go back to the phones and Jackie, who is calling
(31:13):
from Douglas, Wyoming.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Hi, Jackie, welcome to the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
Thank you very much for taking my call. I'm very
much appreciated, of course, and it's an honor to be
on with all of you. Thank you very much. I'm concerned,
as many people are about the medicaid pieces of the bill,
but one of the things that I think has been
little mentioned is more Eliason mentioned that it's that Obamacare,
(31:42):
or the Affordable Care Act, was in some way, many
ways an extension of Medicare. And I was listening to
a gentleman on our local NPR station today talk about
how how Obamacare will be really affected by the cuts
in the current bill because it will cut the support
(32:07):
for the Affordable Care Act and will cut will increase
the cost to people by quite a bit. He gave
the example of a person who might pay about four
hundred and fifty dollars now in copays for insurance, but
now we'll probably play about three thy five hundred under
this bill, so it will be a large change for
(32:29):
people who are using the Affordable Care Act and are
using though, so I'm concerned about that for a lot
of people may lose healthcare, not just people who are
on Medicare or Medicare.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Jackie, thank you for bringing that up.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Chuck Todd, what do we know about how this is
going to affect just regular Affordable Care Act, not Medicaid expansion,
but just regular Affordable Care Act.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
I think there act subsidies that were passed in Biden's bill,
his BBB right from one BBB to another BBB right,
Build Back Better, I think is what he called his
and they're going to expire at the end of this
calendar year if unless Congress does it. So I believe
that's what the caller is referring to. And there's this
is something that I'm I'm not convinced that this is
(33:19):
a dead issue yet, because I do think there are
plenty of Republicans, including those that are going to be
on the ballot in twenty six who may not be
wanting to try to defend these premium hikes. I'm thinking
Susan Collins and Maine. I'm thinking Joni Ernst and Iowa,
especially after that comment that she made as well, and
so I But they are due to expire, and the
(33:41):
fact is right now they're not extended and that and
it so the caller's right that if nothing's done, then
those subsidies go away and people that were getting a
little extra help in order to afford the Affordable Care Act,
it's going to go up. Premiums are going to go
up in twenty seven.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
Yeah, And this is like so many other things in
the Trump administration. We're waiting for it to have an
effect on ordinary people's lives and see what they think
about it. Right now, everything is pretty abstract. You know.
One side is telling you it's going to benefit the ridge.
The other side is telling you you're going to get
great economic growth. We have to wait to see what
same with the tariffs. People have to actually feel it
(34:19):
in their lives and make a judgment.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Right like we are with real ID right now. I mean,
that was coming for so long and now everybody has
to deal with it.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Right in the airport, Bob is calling from Salon Springs, Wisconsin. Bob,
what do you think of the so called big beautiful Bill.
Speaker 10 (34:39):
Hider?
Speaker 13 (34:41):
Thanks for picking my call. I've never voted for a
Democrat in the on the national election, and I'll probably
never vote for a Republican again. And here's why. As
an actual lifelong conservative, I know what it means to
be a conservative, and it means fiscal conservativism, which this
bill florence by just blowing the national debt through the ceiling.
(35:06):
And I also believe in letting the government leave us alone,
which is what conservatives have been preaching from the pulpit
for the last I don't know my entire lifetime, so
more than forty years. Unfortunately, we've got the military, which
is getting the bulk of this spending now being leveraged
against the civilian population in California, which of course is
(35:28):
a liberal of actions. Everyone's celebrating it on the Republican side,
but this is this is malarkey. If they can leverage
the military against us, then that's the opposite of the
government staying out of our business.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
And Bob, I wonder, I mean, just let me just
ask follow follow up question.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Let me ask you a follow question, which is, why
do you think so many of your fellow Republicans and
conservatives do not have the same problems with this that
you do.
Speaker 13 (35:57):
I believe that it's a philosophical problem that when one
of the two parties gets the hammer of the federal government,
they use it against their opponents rather than disassembling the hammer.
And the Republicans and the Democrats always decry the expansion
of executive power, but every time they get the reins,
they expand it and they use it against their opponents,
(36:20):
which sounds really good and feels really good in the moment,
but then when they're on the outs, they cry foul
that they can't believe that anyone would ever use the
executive power against them like this. But guess what, when
they get the brains again, they will do it again.
And that's why my misguided friends on the conservative side
are going along with this, because they think that Donald
(36:41):
Trump is saving them from Mexican tomato pickers or whatever
other boogeyman in the closet is out there. But in fact,
what we're doing is just empowering the state and the
military to not only kill civilians in Gaza, but also
subjugate Americans right here on our own soil, which is
empathetical to the Constitution and everything A republic who supposedly
(37:03):
stood for.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Okay, Bob, thank you very much for that. Chuck Todd
a lot there. One of the things that he brought
up right at the top of that was that this
bill does not do anything good for the deficit.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
It actually expands it.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
No, and this is Look, I we've been on the
brink of the debt, you know, crashing our economy, if
you believe some people, for decades. So I do fear
that the average voter now hears it as sort of
a crying wolf type of messaging. But you know this
(37:37):
is you know this, this this does feel like we
are now pushing the outer ends there. And you know
this is I wrote about this a couple of weeks ago.
You know, there's two issues that one's a pet issue
on the right rhetorically, but nothing's ever done about it
dealing with the debt. And one is a pet issue
on the left, campaign finance reform that's really ever dealt with.
And I sort of proposed that, you know, those that
(37:58):
want to see campaign finance reform in those that want
to see an actual reduction of the debt ought to
join forces. Because I will tell you this, nobody spends
money on politics in order to get less money out
of government, right, They spend money on politics because they're
looking for a tax break, they're looking for a subsidy,
they're looking for you know, they want something out of government. So,
(38:22):
you know, I don't know, you know, until this is
one of those moments. You know, Congress, our government is
never going to deal with this debt issue in a
preemptive fashion. It is going to be after it's a crisis.
It is going to be when the bond market implodes
on us. Unfortunately, it's not something we will tackle beforehand,
(38:44):
not unless we have a sustained period where neither party
has full control of the federal government. I mean, I
would argue the one time we had some progress, right
is when there was a Democratic president, Republican Congress, or
Republican president democratic Congress. I don't think you can trust
(39:04):
one party with so control and hope that somehow they're
going to care about the debt.
Speaker 6 (39:09):
Yeah, And you know, the caller is part of a
kind of small government, relatively libertarian conservatism that just doesn't
exist anymore, or it certainly doesn't exist in the leadership
of the Republican Party. The Republican Party is a big
government party. It wants to use the federal government to
push what it believes, and it's no, it's not about
(39:32):
small government conservatism. Now, I think that we're on our
way to a real fiscal crisis. The bond market hasn't
exactly imploded, but it certainly has acted, and it's requiring
us to pay more money to service our debt. That's
what the bond market does, and it surprised a lot
of people and scared a lot of people, and Moody's
(39:53):
downgraded the United States debt and for a long time,
as Chuck said, it seemed like the deficit kept growing
but nothing really bad happened. Well, I think we're getting
to a limit. You know, everything has a limit, and
that's why you see Ron Paul and other people kind
of who really believe in this. They're kind of the
last Mohicans, the last Republicans who actually do care about
(40:14):
the deficit and the debt. But remember Donald Trump famously
said I love debt, and he spent his whole business
career doing things with other people's money that he had borrowed.
And you know that's I think that the only way
things will change is if something really, really bad happens,
which is too bad, Tolliver, what else is coming in online?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Wow, I was just thinking about you calling me. So
a lot of people have been talking about student loan repayments.
So one of an anonymous person says, it's horrific. Student
loan repayment is unrealistic for the average citizen, and also
strip's federal employee benefits earned with years of public service.
But I was really hung up on that student loan
repayment piece. So I guess either one of you this.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Bill does have some effect, either of you on on
student loan repayment and some of the things that President
Biden had tried to do that Trump is trying to undo.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
No, no, no taking.
Speaker 6 (41:10):
It makes it. Yeah, well, if there are a lot
of things that made paying back your student loan easier,
like years of public service, as Tolliver just mentioned, and
this strips that away. So people are going to have
to pay more. It's gonna if you're if you're somebody
with student loan debt, it just got more expensive for you.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
Look, I'll be honest, I think that that President Biden
and the Democrats could have created a better situation for
for for the for those on student loans. You know,
they were trying to go with complete forgiveness. I think
there would have been more bipartisan support for this had
there been some sort of you know, if you do this,
you get forgiveness here, if you do this, you know
(41:48):
sort of uh uh. And I think that not not
laying that groundwork made this very vulnerable to to just
Republicans coming in and just say we're not doing this giveaway.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, Noah's calling from Pennsylvania. I Noah, what do you
think of the bill?
Speaker 11 (42:06):
Hi?
Speaker 14 (42:06):
There, Thank you so much for taking my call. Look,
I'm a recent college graduate, and I really enjoyed studying
politics and policy in college. I could talk about a
lot of these niche issues for a long time. But really,
what I'm more concerned about from our elected officials is
that they are caring for us and really really thinking
(42:28):
through the provisions of these bill, these bills, you know,
and with this one big beautiful bill Act, it's obviously
a huge piece of legislation. But even if they're not,
you know, experts in the individual areas, I think they
really owe it to us to read through everything and
to really understand it. And I think the whole like, oh,
I didn't read this part of the bill, and now
I don't support it is just the symptom of a
(42:50):
larger sort of carelessness and thoughtlessness that I really am
worried about. And I think they owe it to everyone
in both parties to be really more thoughtful and careful
about these large pieces of legislation.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Great point, Noah, And let me just ask you.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Do you feel like this bill is going to have
an impact on your life?
Speaker 13 (43:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 14 (43:10):
I mean, you know, I, as a young person, am
super excited about the future of clean energy and of
really revitalizing American manufacturing in the green spaces for my
future and for my generation's future and our kids' future.
And if this bill were to end that, that would
(43:30):
be catastrophic I think for all of us, not just
in terms of our competition with China and other nations,
but just for our nation's own prosperity.
Speaker 11 (43:40):
So that's one of.
Speaker 14 (43:40):
The many things in this bill that really worries me
and I think will directly affect me and people in
my life.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
No, thank you very much for that, Chuck.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
He brings up the idea that nobody reads the bills,
or I mean fewer people read the bills.
Speaker 5 (43:55):
Well, I love I love that He mentioned also that
he was recently in college. You know, yeah, every class
that she took in college, you know, there was some
stuff You're like, all right, I can just sort of
I can do the lecture and be okay. But there
was always one or two things you knew you had
to read, right, And you know, all I'm asking of
these members of Congress. I'm not asking you to read
every bill, but can you read the big one?
Speaker 9 (44:17):
Right?
Speaker 5 (44:17):
We're just asking you to read just one bill a year.
I mean, look, I think this is a ridiculous way
to conduct legislation, but we've been going down this road
for the entire twenty first century. Where a president comes in,
they have narrow majorities, they try to jam everything they
can in one bill. The irony here is if Donald
Trump accepted the reality that this country is divided pretty
(44:41):
fifty to fifty and said, hey, I want to work
with a group of Democrats that want to work with me,
he would actually give himself more flexibility to do certain things.
He could lose certain Republicans that maybe doesn't support his
style of economic populism, but he might be able to
find some Democrats that do. But you know, when you're
(45:01):
governing by this party line vote nonsense, you're gonna get
I think, really ineffective bills. And then here's what else happens.
What happens when the other party gets in. They just
hurry up and repeal as much as they can of
what the previous party did. They don't get to do
all of it, right. You know, John McCain prevented Obamacare
from being totally repealed, but you know, they chip away
(45:22):
at it. And I promise you Democrats will chip away
whatever gets past here. Once they get the opportunity, they'll take.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Away some things.
Speaker 5 (45:29):
And it's just this is this is why I think,
you know, the markets are just getting very frustrated with
American America's government.
Speaker 6 (45:39):
And why voters are fed up too. Look, one of
the big themes of the Trump this second Trump term
has been the abdication of Congress from its constitutionally prescribed responsibilities.
It's not just that they stuff everything into a big bill,
because we've seen Congresses do that before, but the appropriations
process I think is going extinct. They just passed curs
(46:02):
giant funding bills to keep the government open, but they
don't thoughtfully look at the appropriations bill for each agency
and what it would do and what they want to fund.
It's like that's just too hard for Congress anymore.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Let me just get one more call in here from Sharon,
who is in Denver, Colorado. Hi, Sharon, go ahead with
your thoughts about the bill.
Speaker 10 (46:24):
Hi.
Speaker 15 (46:25):
Well, I am very concerned about raising the debt limit
and the deficit. And I am not an economist.
Speaker 14 (46:35):
I'm a nurse.
Speaker 15 (46:38):
I guess my biggest problem, Well, I just want somebody
to actually talk about the time there was a time
in history when we were in the black, and that
was in the Clinton administration, and I just I would
love to hear that referred to. Most of my life,
(47:01):
I've heard about deficits and I you know, and I
would love to I would like, you know, nobody puts
a light on that.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah, Sharon, thank you for putting a line on it
right now. And I think we're going to do an
entire show about about this issue. But uh, Chuck Todd,
I'll just give you the last word here on the
on that. And by the way, Clinton was in the
black with the deficit, but there was still a national
debt at that.
Speaker 5 (47:27):
Still a debt, right, the deficit is the year to year.
The debt is the accumulation, right, it's your it's sort
of you're paying off your monthly statement, but maybe you
didn't pay off the entire thing.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
Look to that caller.
Speaker 5 (47:39):
Uh, you long for the days of Ross Perout because
I always credit Ross Preau with sobering up the Democrats
on fiscal responsibility and sobering up Republicans on on on
trade deals. And you know that is actually what it's
going to take, right, It's going to take an outside
force that threatens this status of the two major parties
(48:01):
on a specific issue, maybe like the debt, like Ross
Perot did. He did it on the debt, and he
did it on these trade on these trade deals, on
what was happening. He was running against NAFTA, if you recall.
But it really did create an atmosphere in Washington in
the nineties that put it at the center. Right, You
had you had Bill Clinton doing it with the Democrats.
(48:23):
He raised taxes to deal with the deficit at the
urging of Wall Street advisors like Bob Rubin and Larry Summers.
And then Republicans got Congress and then together the one
thing they could agree on was sort of si fiscal
restraining a guy like John Kasik working with Bill Clinton,
and they got it done.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
And I think that's what you need.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
You need, you're in the middle, you need, you need
a bipartisan government, bipartisanship, A perfect a perfect note to end.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
To end this hour on I want to thank my.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Guests, Chuck Todd hosted the Chuck Toodcast, and NPR national
political correspondent Mari Lison.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Thanks so much to both of you. Thank you than
and don't forget.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
The Middle is available as a podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
to podcast.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
We've got an.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Episode of our weekly extra, One Thing Trump Did coming
later this week about the idea of removing fluoride from
our drinking water. And next week we'll be back here
talking about the philosophical Middle and how we can apply
philosophy in our approach to politics.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
That's a new one, Okay. As always, you can call
in at eight four four four Middle that's eight four
four four six four three three five three, or you
can reach out and listen to the Middle dot com.
Or you can also sign up for our free weekly
newsletter and support us with a text aductible donation.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Thanks to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and
the hundreds of public radio stations making it possible for
people across the country to listen to the Middle, I'm
Jeremy Hobson, and I will talk to you next week
Welcome to the middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our
house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver. It is good to be
back after last week. I was on the final AIDS
life Cycle Ride, cycling almost six hundred miles from San
Francisco to Los Angeles. Now I trained for the ride, Tolliver,
I did not train for the camping, and I'm not
a camper.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
It turns down, yeah, neither of my I mean, how
are your thighs feeling.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
My thighs are okay.
Speaker 1 (00:29):
I still can't really feel the tips of some of
my fingers from gripping the handlebars. But anyway, a nice
thing about doing that ride was I actually got to
take a little break from the news. I did find
out at one of the rest stops that Elon Musk
and Donald Trump were fighting with each other after Muster
so called be exactly at.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
The big beautiful bill.
Speaker 1 (00:49):
He called it a disgusting abomination. Now, the bill, for
people who haven't been paying attention, would do a lot
of things. It would cut taxes for the wealthy. It
would make cuts to Medicaid, that's how health care for
the poor. It would eliminate clean energy tax credits, among
many other things. Here is Trump responding to Musk in
a meeting with reporters in the Oval Office.
Speaker 4 (01:09):
I'm very disappointed because Elon knew the inner workings of
this bill better than almost anybody sitting here, better than
you people.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
He knew everything about it. He had no problem with it.
All of a sudden he had a problem.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
So the thing about this show is you don't have
to be an almost trillionaire to tell us what you think.
There is no income requirement to call in, and we
want to hear from you this hour because this bill
could could become law in a matter of weeks, and
if it does, it is going to affect all of us. So, Tolliver,
can you give people the phone number and the ways
to reach us.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Please?
Speaker 2 (01:40):
Yeah, you can call us at eight four four four Middle.
That's eight four four four six four three three five three.
You can also write to us at Listen to the
Middle dot com. You can also comment on our live
stream on YouTube or TikTok or every single place on earth. Okay,
I'm watching them all.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
Joining us this hour.
Speaker 1 (01:55):
Political analyst Chuck Todd, host of The Chuck Podcast, Chuck Todd,
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 5 (02:00):
Thanks for having me, Jeremy, I'm excited and also a DJ.
Speaker 4 (02:04):
I've not appeared with them.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yes, well, I mean that's the key to the show
is a DJ. Yes, and NPR National political correspondent Marillason
is with us as well.
Speaker 6 (02:13):
Mar.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
Great to have you on the show as well.
Speaker 6 (02:15):
Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
So before we get to the phones, Mara, let me
start with you.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
When you think about all the bills that you have
covered going through Congress, how significant is this one in
terms of the impacts that would have on Americans.
Speaker 6 (02:30):
Well, I think it's really significant because of the size,
because of the amount of trillions of dollars it adds
to the deficit. It's very similar in its goals to
past Republican bills, past bills that Trump has passed, where
they're skewed to the wealthy, high earners, high income individuals
(02:51):
get most of the benefits, low income individuals pay most
of the costs, and it incorporates all of Trump's goals,
and that's not dissimilar to past big reconciliation bills. I
just think this one is on steroids. I mean, I
don't think we've ever had a bill in front of
Congress that would add this much to the deficit, and
(03:12):
that's why it's causing the small amounts of Republican pushback
that you see.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
Chuck Todd, there's so much in this bill.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
What are the things that stand out to you that
would have the biggest impact on Americans.
Speaker 5 (03:25):
Well, the problem with this bill is that the biggest
benefit is something that the public already has, which is
the tax cut. Right is, because this bill is about
extending the tax cuts. And this is what I think
is going to make this bill very hard politically to sell.
I think it's already been defined by what they're doing
(03:45):
with Medicaid. And look, I've mar and I've done this
a long time. The argument about what is a cut
and what is slowing the growth has been sort of
the bane of the existence of the left versus right
on like how you calculate on what you call a cut.
But it's pretty it's been pretty well defined, and it
doesn't help the president that you have Republican senators calling
(04:07):
them cuts in the medicaids part. Right, Josh Holly has
said that, Lisa Murkowski has said that, and I think
that that's what. Look, I think the part that the
White House probably the thing that is the newest thing
would be the additional money on border security, which is
what they keep emphasizing now. But I'm very skeptical. Even
(04:28):
if this bill has positive you know, it has the
positive impacts that they hope and pray happens with the economy,
it's not going to be in time for twenty six right.
Bill Clinton learned that lesson his big economic plan his
first year was a tough vote party line, and it
(04:48):
had zero It had somewhat you could argue negative impact
for him in the near term politically, and then it
kicked in and it was deemed as positive for the economy.
Wall Street loved it, etc. So I think this, I
just think this bill is going to be impossible for
Republicans to sell as a net positive. At best, maybe
they can neutralize it, because again it's tough to tell somebody, hey,
(05:10):
if we didn't do this, you would have had a
tax hike. There's no new goodie. And I think that's
what makes this very difficult for the administration to sell politically.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
And I think back to the Obama Care passing in
two thousand and nine and then the Obama presidency just
getting crushed in the midterms in twenty ten as well. Mara,
how important is it that Elon Musk came out, at
least originally and said this is a disgusting abomination. Does
Trump need Elon Musk's support to get this through?
Speaker 6 (05:40):
You know, under in the past we would say, Wow,
the richest person in the world, the biggest backer of
the president, he doesn't like this bill. That's really going
to make a difference. I think it makes a very
small difference. This bill, I think, is going to pass,
just like all the other bills like this, where people
sell it saying if you don't vote for this bill,
it's the end of the Trump president. You know, you
(06:01):
load this up. And then what Chuck is talking about
is how hard it's going to be to sell, not
how hard it's going to be to pass it through Congress,
but how hard it's going to be to make it
a political positive for the Republicans. So I think that
among a certain group of voters that actually were very
important to Trump, young male you want to call them bros,
(06:22):
they love Elon Musk and it does matter what he says.
But there's so much else going on. We're so tribalized
now that I don't know how much of an impact
that would happen. Also, those voters who did come out
to vote for Donald Trump in twenty twenty four are
not necessarily the same voters who come out and vote
in a midterm. They're infrequent, less frequent voters.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
Yeah, Chuck Todd Mara talks about all the other things
that are going on right now. We just as we
go to air, a US senator was manhandled by law
enforcement Alex Padilla when he tried to interrupt a press
conference by the Homeland Security Secretary CHRISTI Nome about to
be this big military parade in Washington and hundreds of
protests around the country. Trump has brought in the military
(07:07):
in Los.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Angeles to deal with protests.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Does any of that have Does it play into what's
happening in Congress when it comes to getting this megabill passed.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
I almost feel like they're they're no. I don't want
to say it's totally unrelated, But oddly, the more polarized
the conversation is about immigration, the more it might. I've
talked to some congressional Republicans who say, Hey, this standoff
in LA actually has rallied the party together. So I
(07:40):
guess you could make you could make that case, but
can I just do a what if?
Speaker 7 (07:45):
On here?
Speaker 5 (07:45):
I had a about a forty minute conversation last weekend
with Steve Bannon, and Bannon was clearly disappointed that that
the President didn't go for the tax hike idea, meaning
they could have a tax hike on say, anybody that
made five million or more, and then connected it and
said this is what's paying for no taxes on tips?
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Right?
Speaker 5 (08:09):
And you know what Bannon was envisioning is that they
could really cement the idea that they're the working class
party the other you know, how do you you would
just gum up the Democratic talking points that hey, they
are always for tax cuts for the rich. But that's
the problem that Trump has in that a majority of
his supporters are in that working class cohort. But that
(08:33):
isn't where a majority of elected Republicans are yet. As
my friend Brad Todd likes to say about Republicans, he says,
and he's a Republican strategy. He says, they were put
on earth to cut taxes. That's what Republicans, you know,
and the certainly in our lifetime in the politics at
mar and I've covered for the last couple of generations
that has been the case. But it is interesting this
(08:53):
shift here that is potentially there, which is what also
I think why a tax cut in general isn't isn't
just the easy, the easy elexir for the Trump base
these days.
Speaker 3 (09:07):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 6 (09:08):
The other thing to remember, you listed all those times
that presidents have passed big bills and then paid for
them politically in the next midterm. Don't forget Trump in
the first term, it happened to him too. He passed
a bill with a lot of the tax cuts that
he's now trying to extend, and the public didn't like it.
They thought it was a big giveaway to billionaires and
to the rich, and he also suffered in his first midterm.
(09:29):
So I think that's something that could happen. The problem
with Steve Bannon, Steve Bannon takes this stuff about a
working class party seriously. You know, he does more than
pay lip service to it. He actually wants Republicans to
walk the walk now that they have become a different party.
But when the White House floated, and I don't think
that they pushed put much muscle behind it, but they
(09:51):
did float this idea maybe we'll raise taxes for some
of the highest earners, and that will help pay for
the tax cuts for people who work for tipped wages
or or over time, et cetera. But they got pushed
back in Congress, and they didn't really try because it
wasn't really a priority for the president.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Let me ask you one more thing before we take
a quick break and get to some calls, because the
lines are filling up. But Chuck Todd, does it surprise
you that this is given that you think this is
going to pass. It's clearly going to have a lot
of effects on everybody, including knocking many people off of
their Medicaid. That it's not getting more coverage right now, Well, look.
Speaker 5 (10:29):
It's the sausage portion of congressional bill making, I you know.
And oh, by the way, there's so many other things.
I mean, you talked about what was happening just in
the next in the last twenty four hours, last twenty
four minutes, you left out Israel's attack on a lot
right like that, and that is going to be also
so I you know, I don't want to say it's
a bandwidth issue, but sort of Congress plotting along doing this,
(10:53):
I think once it's passed you'll see more coverage of
the impact of it. And I will say this, I
don't think there's so many Republicans, I think on Capitol
Hill that don't fully appreciate how the public's perception of
medicaid has changed. When I first started covering politics, medicaid
was sort of thought of as welfare, right, it was
sort of put in the same category. That is not
(11:16):
the experience of medicaid. I mean, I'll just you know,
my own grandmother is still ninety eight years old, ran
out of money. She's on Medicaid because that's and if
she wasn't, you know, my mom and her brother and
sisters would would be bankrupt trying to take care of her.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
Medicaid is millions of Americans. Absolutely, of any Americans. Now,
I don't think everybody.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
Let me just say, let me just remind our listeners
that you can reach us at eight four to four
four Middle and Tulliver. Needless to say, this bill is
not likely to get any Democratic votes in the Senate.
There are some Republicans who are opposed as well.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
Yeah, Kentucky Senator Rand Paul's one of them. Here he
is sharing his thoughts on CBS's face The nation.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Well, the math doesn't really add up.
Speaker 8 (11:52):
One of the things this big and beautiful bill is
is it's a vehicle for increasing spending for the military
and for the border. It's about three hundred and twenty
billillion dollars in new spending. To put that in perspective,
that's more than all the doze cuts that we found
so far.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
And in the end, the way you add it up
to see.
Speaker 8 (12:07):
If it actually is going to save money or ad
money is how much debt are they going.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
To borrow five trillion over two years? Enormous amount?
Speaker 1 (12:15):
I mean, he's right, Tolliver, it does add to the deficit.
This bill man not a deficit reducer.
Speaker 2 (12:20):
Math ain't mathon as the kids saying, we'll.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
Be right back with your calls on the Middle. This
is the Middle on Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning
in the Middle as a national call in show, we're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically, philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking what your thoughts are on Trump's megabill. Tolliver,
what is the number to call in?
Speaker 2 (12:42):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four sixty four three three five three. We can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on all social media.
Speaker 1 (12:51):
I'm joined by political analyst Chuck Todd, host of the
Chuck Toodcast in NPR, national political correspondent Marillason, and let's
get to the phones because the lines are full. Jude
is calling from Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Jude, go ahead with
your thoughts about the megabill.
Speaker 9 (13:07):
Yes, thank you. I would just like to say it's
an honor to be on with this panel. But I
think that the coverage in the mainstream media only reflects
the bias media coverage against Donald Trump and all things
that Donald Trump wants to do. There's a lot of
information that has been left out. For example, the Medicaid
cuts are two illegal migrants who are on the Medicaid
(13:31):
system illegally, So those cuts will will not hurt Medicaid,
those will actually save it. When Chuck Todd spoke about
his ninety eight year old brandmother, well do you know
there's a lot of funds from Medicaid that are being
spats on people who are here illegally. Now that they
are being sent sent back to other nations. They won't
(13:55):
won't need to be on those on those rolls. That's
just one example. Another example, since when you talk about
the big tax cuts, right, okay, well, you're not taking
into account the revenue that's going to be generated from
those tax cuts. So usually when there's a tax cut,
there's economic growth that follows it, because I have never
heard of a poor person given someone else jobs. It's
(14:16):
always the wealthy.
Speaker 1 (14:18):
Right, So if you give you let me ask you
in the first in the first Trump administration, that didn't
happen with the tax cuts.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
They didn't pay for themselves through economic growth.
Speaker 9 (14:30):
Well, okay, I will say say this though, as a
student of history, I'm sure you would agree that when
Ronald Reagan gave those those tax cuts, did uh and
and and so you know, you just never never know.
It's not childlin Stone.
Speaker 3 (14:44):
This is a.
Speaker 9 (14:45):
Largely social science and so you just you know, there's
no guarantee. But I will say this. You know this
is this is this is basic.
Speaker 6 (14:57):
Uh.
Speaker 9 (14:57):
You know, when the Republicans get in, they want to
give out tax cuts. When the Democrats get in, they
want to give out money, like when President Obama's is
when he gave out out money and it was the.
Speaker 3 (15:09):
Same I got, I've got it.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
I think it sounds like you're in favor of this bill.
Thank you for that call, Chuck Todd. One of the
things that he brought up there was Medicaid going to
undocumented immigrants. There is a lot of people that would
contest that that is happening in any meaningful way. It's
illegal for people who are here, who are here illegally
to collect Medicaid benefits. But that is certainly something that
(15:34):
Jude is not the only person that believes that.
Speaker 5 (15:37):
It's Look, it's how Republicans are selling this right. They're
trying to say, we're not cutting Medicaid, We're trying to
save medicaid. I take the caller's point.
Speaker 3 (15:47):
I hope he's right, right.
Speaker 5 (15:48):
I hope that's that's what it is, But it doesn't
appear to be. The numbers that the Republicans are claiming
there doesn't appear to add up. But we're Look, I
think the caller made a fair point. Sometimes he is
right about the Reagan tax cuts, and we're and you
can go back into the Kennedy tax cuts, but in
both of those cases, we had much higher tax rates,
(16:09):
and so the impact really did have an economic impact.
And this goes back. This is not a new tax cut,
this is a continuation. It isn't really juicing the economy.
So I don't Yeah, I'd be surprised if there's growth
connected to this.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
Now.
Speaker 6 (16:25):
The problem is the problem is that every single independent agency,
every single independent interpreter who looks at these things and
tries to sorry, that's dog has come out with the
safe conclusion and it won't save money, that it will
cut people off of medicaid. And the other thing that
(16:46):
Chuck made a really good point earlier about how medicaid
has changed. It's not just a program for the poor.
And you know why it changed because Obamacare was actually
a gigantic expansion of Medicaid, which the federal govern and
took over like ninety of the costs for the states.
And that was that is really what Obamacare was. It
(17:07):
was getting rid of a ban on pre existing conditions
to stop you from getting healthcare, creating these marketplaces, but
mostly it was a giant expansion of Medicaid.
Speaker 5 (17:17):
Yeah, I think your dog has a strong opinion about this.
Speaker 6 (17:21):
He does.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
I'm sorry, I think all of our dogs are going
to start talking to each other. I'm worried about that
right now, might just be quiet. Okay, Alan is calling
from Ogden, Utah. Hi Alan, what do you think of
the so called big beautiful bill?
Speaker 10 (17:35):
Oh?
Speaker 11 (17:36):
Thanks for having me on. If I could just make
a few points, I would be so happy. First, if
I could touch on the last callers comment. If tax
cuts went to business and businesses passed on those savings
by increasing wages, that would be great for a country.
(17:56):
I'm from Augden, Utah. The stickers that I see and
the t shirts that I see people wearing are dirty hands,
clean money. They drive huge trucks, have McMansions, boats, trailers,
and those people think that Medicaid recipients are on welfare.
You should just work harder. I'm all for of that
(18:17):
if the wages are up there Now. When I call
Blake Moore his office and say, well, why were you
asleep during the bill? His office responds blakemore tends to
think that this bill will be deficit neutral. Well, if
it's deficit neutral by cutting spending to the poor and
(18:40):
giving benefits back to the ridge, why even do it?
And I think the thing that people need to be
sold on is that if you're making one hundred grand,
two hundred grand, go up to five hundred grand, you're
not getting any benefits from this. It's the wealthiest of
the wealthy people make it undergrand. Yeah, Alan, I would
(19:04):
like to understand.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Let me let me, let me take let me take
that thought of it Allan, thank you very much for
that call that we can only get a couple of
points in per person. But Mara, you know, he he
brings up this idea that I'm sure we're going to
hear about that that this is this is for the wealthy,
and that Chuck brought up. You know that even Steve
Bannon didn't didn't think that that was such a great idea.
Speaker 6 (19:25):
Yeah, I mean that is going to be where the
Republicans are going to have trouble selling this. This is
what happened to them in Trump's first term. They passed
a bill very similar to this, smaller, but the benefits
are skewed to the wealthy. Every single Wall Street company
that's looked at this, the Congressional Budget Office wherever you
want to go for some kind of an independent analysis
of the actual costs and benefits from this bill says
(19:49):
it's skewed to the wealthy, and that's where Republicans are
going to have trouble selling this. I don't think they're
going to have as much trouble passing it as they're
going to have convincing people that it's good for everyone.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Okay, Daniel is calling from San Antonio, Texas. Hi, Daniel,
go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 6 (20:09):
Hi.
Speaker 10 (20:09):
I'll make my point as quickly as I can. You know,
you share on time. Number one, I tell all the
people that didn't vote that would support the Democrats, this
is what we get. And number two, the GOP and
Donald Trump, they're the party of false premises. A while ago,
that man Jude from Louisiana said that all these immigrants
(20:32):
and whatever is on Medicaid. That's not true. I get
twenty three dollars a month from food stamps, only twenty three.
I'm lower middle class, and you know how hard it
was to get that. How many IDs I practic three
to take them a pint of blood and my first
born's pine of book. It's unbelievable. So the immigrants do
(20:53):
not get medicaid. That's DS and the Party of Republics
as false memers. They lie and they run they're going
to score a touchdown and before anybody knows, wait, big bumply,
But that's what they're arguing about.
Speaker 3 (21:06):
Well, Daniel, are you worried? Are you worried about your
Snap benefits? About food stamps?
Speaker 4 (21:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 10 (21:12):
I went to Catholic charity today the first time in
my life to get food, and my neighbors did too.
We're nowhere middle classes, a nice little neighborhood, but people
are going to churches to get food. They're very worried
about it. I'm very worried about my health benefits. My
nephews on Medicaid, they're not proving anything for him right now.
He is disabled and he's very very worried about that too.
(21:34):
This is hurting most Americans and they just don't care.
They care about themselves and their pockets. But one day
we will all meet God, and I sure hate to
be next to Donald Trumping when he's at that point.
Speaker 1 (21:47):
Daniel, Thank you for that call, Chuck Todd. It kind
of reminds me when you hear from Daniel who says,
you know, he's collecting Snap benefits, he's worried about losing them.
That they're you know, in the immigration that have been
going on. There are people who are legal who are
getting caught up in this that they shouldn't be, but
they are getting caught up in this. And somebody like
(22:08):
Daniel who's you know, rightfully collecting his snap benefits and
is worried that this bill you throw the baby out
with the bathwater, and some people that should be getting
the benefits might lose them.
Speaker 5 (22:17):
Look, and I also should note there's mixed status families
out there right, some that are here in this country
legally and some that are not. Where this gets very complicated.
How do you decide who's getting the benefit right on
something like this? And so look, this is what I
think makes it. I mean, I go back to what
Josh Holly. You know, Josh Holly is one of the
(22:38):
more interesting senators that I like to follow because he
really seems to understand who his voters are now, right,
and he actually tis to his credit. I mean, it's
why he's won twice now. He does understand who his
electorate is, and this is where he's been. He doesn't
think they should be touching any part of Medicaid, like,
not one bit, because you know, here's the thing, even
(23:00):
if you're trying, you know, This goes back to I
remember when a Senator Mark Rubio launched those PPP loans
during COVID and somebody said, hey, shouldn't there be some
sort of and it was like they decided not to
have any sort of extra check to make sure because
the assumption was we got to hurry up and get
the money out. There's going to be some graft, but
(23:21):
hopefully it's minimal, hopefully it's within reason. But at the
end of the day, you want to hurry up and
get the benefits out. And I think that's the situation
that a Josh Holly's worried about that. Whatever you're doing
to try to, you know, you somehow make sure somebody
who's undocumented is not getting a benefit, you may end
up slowing the whole process down, and those that needed
(23:44):
and have earned it or have qualified for it, suddenly
they're getting you know, it takes longer to get the benefit,
and then that will feel like a cut to some books.
Speaker 3 (23:53):
Tolliver, what is coming in online, tons of stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
So Albert says, so many of the representatives voted for
this without and they even reading the bill talk about
the blind leading the blind, And then Albert I would
you want to bring up brought up AI and how
I think the bill says that you know, we can't
our state and can't regulate it, thank you, so.
Speaker 6 (24:11):
States can't regulate it.
Speaker 5 (24:13):
That I think that is getting traction. That is getting
traction and tolliver. That is the whole The members of
Congress that admitted they didn't read the bill are the
ones that want to backtrack on that specific issue alone,
which is that feels like a total giveaway to the
big tech companies that hey, we will we will shield
you from any regulation from all fifty states, which would
(24:35):
be an unusual thing to do. And given the immediate
outcry that you're seeing. And I don't think any politician
left or right wants to get caught looking like they're
trying to protect big tech these days, I assume that
you know, raising the alarm bells about that provision probably
means it'll get struck out.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Well, and Mara, doesn't a provision like that not go
along with the idea of a reconciliation bill that's supposed
to be about budgetary things.
Speaker 6 (25:01):
Well, yes, and there is an arbiter in Congress who
decides if things fit the criteria of a reconciliation bill.
They're supposed to just be budgetary. But there's been an
effort among Republicans in the Senate to ignore Is it
the parliamentarian who does that? Who?
Speaker 5 (25:21):
Yes?
Speaker 6 (25:22):
Right, she decides whether something belongs in the reconciliation bill
or not. And the reason why presidents use reconciliation is
because you only need fifty one votes. It can't be filibustered,
it can be passed. You know, it can circumvent that.
So that'll be an interesting thing. If Senators really want
to keep a provision like that in, they're going to
(25:44):
have to ignore the parliamentarian and break through yet another
norm of our system of three coequal branches of government.
And we'll see if that happens. But you know, I
also think there's so many there's so many cross currents
of problems. I still think at the end this thing passes.
But don't forget about all those blue state Republicans who
(26:05):
want there to be a much higher cap on the
amount of taxes they can deduct state taxes they can
deduct from their federal taxes. And that's an little big caucus.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
Right, Yes, let's go to Scott, who's in South Charleston,
West Virginia. Hi Scott, Welcome to the middle Go ahead, Yes.
Speaker 7 (26:24):
Thanks very much. I agree much about the tax cuts
the rich and medicaid and everything. I'm going to go
to another part of it. And one thing I heard
recently a good acronym for the bill is the one
Bad Betrayal Bill, a Democratic representative coin that. But whatever
I'd like to talk about is the energy tax credits
(26:45):
are needed to help solve climate change. And some of
the red state senators realize that the IRA bill was
carefully thawed out and the incentives are helping their red
state residents quite a bit. In West Virginia, of course,
is a red state, and we've had solar panels on
our house for two years now. We've gone from five
(27:07):
hundred dollars electric bills in the summer and winter down
to fourteen dollars connection charges be paid back in about
six to seven years. Our church just now this week
installed solar panels at my encouragement for it. We've got
two evs. We're trying to do everything we can. One
of those evs is now seven years old, one hundred
(27:28):
and thirty thousand miles. We're putting our money and effort
into where it counts, and I wish more people would,
but unfortunately, our PSC and the federal government has a
two hundred and fifty dollars year federal tax on evs
and our state has a two hundred dollars extra per
year tax. They're trying to drive people away from electric vehicles,
(27:51):
which are part of the solution to climate change over
the long term.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Scott, thank you for bringing that up. Yes, no, that's
a great point. And marl Ason, a lot of this
bill would kind of undo the Inflation Reduction Act that
was one of President Biden's big bills that put a
ton into it called the biggest climate change bill like
in the history of the world.
Speaker 6 (28:15):
Yeah, a lot of this undoes that I really would
be interested in hearing what the what the Josh Hollies
and Steve Bannons think about this, because, I mean, clean
energy doesn't seem very ideological or cultural, but there does
seem to be a kind of ideological culture war attitude.
If it's if people, if it's green, it must be woke.
And this bill undoes a lot of things that were
(28:37):
supposed to combat climate change. And just today the President
signed an executive order to undo California's efforts to set
standards for electric vehicles. So I think that this pretty
much ends the United States efforts to combat climate change.
And it's interesting to me that a lot of the
projects that the Inflation Reduction Act funded, and your caller
(29:01):
just mentioned them, we're in red states. Partially politically, Joe
Biden actually thought it was a good idea to spread
out the money and the IRA to red states, but
also because in red states you can get permits a
lot faster than in some blue states to build these projects.
So but a lot of those things are going to
be heard. But I still think it's kind of like
what we were talking about before. Just because a red
(29:22):
state is going to lose some funding and jobs from
some kind of a climate change project, that's not enough
to make that red state member or senator vote against
this bill.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Well, and just a note because I like to bring
this point up when we talk about red states.
Speaker 3 (29:37):
And blue states.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
More people voted for Donald Trump in Los Angeles County
than in all of Louisiana, just to put that out there.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
Yes, we're all mixed everywhere we go. I Toliver Well,
one of.
Speaker 1 (29:50):
The one of the most contentious issues in this megabill
concerns the potential cuts as we've been talking about to
medicaid spending.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Yeah, and lawmakers have been getting an earful about that
at town home mee around the country. Iowa Republican Senator
Joni Ernst probably heard the most viral moment right here.
Speaker 12 (30:06):
So when you are arguing, when you are arguing about
illegals that are receiving medicaid benefits one point four million,
one point four they're not they are not eligible, so
they will be coming off. So people are not well.
Speaker 6 (30:27):
We all are going to die.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
So we're all going to die. Tolliver all, She's right,
we are all going to die. It's true.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Yes, it's not really the most politically wise thing to
say to a group, but yes, that is that is
a true statement.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
The gasps really got me.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Oh boy. We'll be right back with more of the Middle.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. In this hour,
we're asking for your thoughts on Trump's megabill. You can
call us at eight four four four Middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three five three. You
can also reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com.
I am joined by NPR national political correspondent mar Ellison
and Chuck Todd, host of the Chuck Todd Cast. Let's
go back to the phones and Jackie, who is calling
(31:13):
from Douglas, Wyoming.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Hi, Jackie, welcome to the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 4 (31:19):
Thank you very much for taking my call. I'm very
much appreciated, of course, and it's an honor to be
on with all of you. Thank you very much. I'm concerned,
as many people are about the medicaid pieces of the bill,
but one of the things that I think has been
little mentioned is more Eliason mentioned that it's that Obamacare,
(31:42):
or the Affordable Care Act, was in some way, many
ways an extension of Medicare. And I was listening to
a gentleman on our local NPR station today talk about
how how Obamacare will be really affected by the cuts
in the current bill because it will cut the support
(32:07):
for the Affordable Care Act and will cut will increase
the cost to people by quite a bit. He gave
the example of a person who might pay about four
hundred and fifty dollars now in copays for insurance, but
now we'll probably play about three thy five hundred under
this bill, so it will be a large change for
(32:29):
people who are using the Affordable Care Act and are
using though, so I'm concerned about that for a lot
of people may lose healthcare, not just people who are
on Medicare or Medicare.
Speaker 3 (32:41):
Jackie, thank you for bringing that up.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
Chuck Todd, what do we know about how this is
going to affect just regular Affordable Care Act, not Medicaid expansion,
but just regular Affordable Care Act.
Speaker 5 (32:54):
I think there act subsidies that were passed in Biden's bill,
his BBB right from one BBB to another BBB right,
Build Back Better, I think is what he called his
and they're going to expire at the end of this
calendar year if unless Congress does it. So I believe
that's what the caller is referring to. And there's this
is something that I'm I'm not convinced that this is
(33:19):
a dead issue yet, because I do think there are
plenty of Republicans, including those that are going to be
on the ballot in twenty six who may not be
wanting to try to defend these premium hikes. I'm thinking
Susan Collins and Maine. I'm thinking Joni Ernst and Iowa,
especially after that comment that she made as well, and
so I But they are due to expire, and the
(33:41):
fact is right now they're not extended and that and
it so the caller's right that if nothing's done, then
those subsidies go away and people that were getting a
little extra help in order to afford the Affordable Care Act,
it's going to go up. Premiums are going to go
up in twenty seven.
Speaker 6 (33:57):
Yeah, And this is like so many other things in
the Trump administration. We're waiting for it to have an
effect on ordinary people's lives and see what they think
about it. Right now, everything is pretty abstract. You know.
One side is telling you it's going to benefit the ridge.
The other side is telling you you're going to get
great economic growth. We have to wait to see what
same with the tariffs. People have to actually feel it
(34:19):
in their lives and make a judgment.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
Right like we are with real ID right now. I mean,
that was coming for so long and now everybody has
to deal with it.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Right in the airport, Bob is calling from Salon Springs, Wisconsin. Bob,
what do you think of the so called big beautiful Bill.
Speaker 10 (34:39):
Hider?
Speaker 13 (34:41):
Thanks for picking my call. I've never voted for a
Democrat in the on the national election, and I'll probably
never vote for a Republican again. And here's why. As
an actual lifelong conservative, I know what it means to
be a conservative, and it means fiscal conservativism, which this
bill florence by just blowing the national debt through the ceiling.
(35:06):
And I also believe in letting the government leave us alone,
which is what conservatives have been preaching from the pulpit
for the last I don't know my entire lifetime, so
more than forty years. Unfortunately, we've got the military, which
is getting the bulk of this spending now being leveraged
against the civilian population in California, which of course is
(35:28):
a liberal of actions. Everyone's celebrating it on the Republican side,
but this is this is malarkey. If they can leverage
the military against us, then that's the opposite of the
government staying out of our business.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
And Bob, I wonder, I mean, just let me just
ask follow follow up question.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
Let me ask you a follow question, which is, why
do you think so many of your fellow Republicans and
conservatives do not have the same problems with this that
you do.
Speaker 13 (35:57):
I believe that it's a philosophical problem that when one
of the two parties gets the hammer of the federal government,
they use it against their opponents rather than disassembling the hammer.
And the Republicans and the Democrats always decry the expansion
of executive power, but every time they get the reins,
they expand it and they use it against their opponents,
(36:20):
which sounds really good and feels really good in the moment,
but then when they're on the outs, they cry foul
that they can't believe that anyone would ever use the
executive power against them like this. But guess what, when
they get the brains again, they will do it again.
And that's why my misguided friends on the conservative side
are going along with this, because they think that Donald
(36:41):
Trump is saving them from Mexican tomato pickers or whatever
other boogeyman in the closet is out there. But in fact,
what we're doing is just empowering the state and the
military to not only kill civilians in Gaza, but also
subjugate Americans right here on our own soil, which is
empathetical to the Constitution and everything A republic who supposedly
(37:03):
stood for.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Okay, Bob, thank you very much for that. Chuck Todd
a lot there. One of the things that he brought
up right at the top of that was that this
bill does not do anything good for the deficit.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
It actually expands it.
Speaker 4 (37:16):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (37:17):
No, and this is Look, I we've been on the
brink of the debt, you know, crashing our economy, if
you believe some people, for decades. So I do fear
that the average voter now hears it as sort of
a crying wolf type of messaging. But you know this
(37:37):
is you know this, this this does feel like we
are now pushing the outer ends there. And you know
this is I wrote about this a couple of weeks ago.
You know, there's two issues that one's a pet issue
on the right rhetorically, but nothing's ever done about it
dealing with the debt. And one is a pet issue
on the left, campaign finance reform that's really ever dealt with.
And I sort of proposed that, you know, those that
(37:58):
want to see campaign finance reform in those that want
to see an actual reduction of the debt ought to
join forces. Because I will tell you this, nobody spends
money on politics in order to get less money out
of government, right, They spend money on politics because they're
looking for a tax break, they're looking for a subsidy,
they're looking for you know, they want something out of government. So,
(38:22):
you know, I don't know, you know, until this is
one of those moments. You know, Congress, our government is
never going to deal with this debt issue in a
preemptive fashion. It is going to be after it's a crisis.
It is going to be when the bond market implodes
on us. Unfortunately, it's not something we will tackle beforehand,
(38:44):
not unless we have a sustained period where neither party
has full control of the federal government. I mean, I
would argue the one time we had some progress, right
is when there was a Democratic president, Republican Congress, or
Republican president democratic Congress. I don't think you can trust
(39:04):
one party with so control and hope that somehow they're
going to care about the debt.
Speaker 6 (39:09):
Yeah, And you know, the caller is part of a
kind of small government, relatively libertarian conservatism that just doesn't
exist anymore, or it certainly doesn't exist in the leadership
of the Republican Party. The Republican Party is a big
government party. It wants to use the federal government to
push what it believes, and it's no, it's not about
(39:32):
small government conservatism. Now, I think that we're on our
way to a real fiscal crisis. The bond market hasn't
exactly imploded, but it certainly has acted, and it's requiring
us to pay more money to service our debt. That's
what the bond market does, and it surprised a lot
of people and scared a lot of people, and Moody's
(39:53):
downgraded the United States debt and for a long time,
as Chuck said, it seemed like the deficit kept growing
but nothing really bad happened. Well, I think we're getting
to a limit. You know, everything has a limit, and
that's why you see Ron Paul and other people kind
of who really believe in this. They're kind of the
last Mohicans, the last Republicans who actually do care about
(40:14):
the deficit and the debt. But remember Donald Trump famously
said I love debt, and he spent his whole business
career doing things with other people's money that he had borrowed.
And you know that's I think that the only way
things will change is if something really, really bad happens,
which is too bad, Tolliver, what else is coming in online?
Speaker 2 (40:38):
Wow, I was just thinking about you calling me. So
a lot of people have been talking about student loan repayments.
So one of an anonymous person says, it's horrific. Student
loan repayment is unrealistic for the average citizen, and also
strip's federal employee benefits earned with years of public service.
But I was really hung up on that student loan
repayment piece. So I guess either one of you this.
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Bill does have some effect, either of you on on
student loan repayment and some of the things that President
Biden had tried to do that Trump is trying to undo.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
No, no, no taking.
Speaker 6 (41:10):
It makes it. Yeah, well, if there are a lot
of things that made paying back your student loan easier,
like years of public service, as Tolliver just mentioned, and
this strips that away. So people are going to have
to pay more. It's gonna if you're if you're somebody
with student loan debt, it just got more expensive for you.
Speaker 5 (41:27):
Look, I'll be honest, I think that that President Biden
and the Democrats could have created a better situation for
for for the for those on student loans. You know,
they were trying to go with complete forgiveness. I think
there would have been more bipartisan support for this had
there been some sort of you know, if you do this,
you get forgiveness here, if you do this, you know
(41:48):
sort of uh uh. And I think that not not
laying that groundwork made this very vulnerable to to just
Republicans coming in and just say we're not doing this giveaway.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yeah, Noah's calling from Pennsylvania. I Noah, what do you
think of the bill?
Speaker 11 (42:06):
Hi?
Speaker 14 (42:06):
There, Thank you so much for taking my call. Look,
I'm a recent college graduate, and I really enjoyed studying
politics and policy in college. I could talk about a
lot of these niche issues for a long time. But really,
what I'm more concerned about from our elected officials is
that they are caring for us and really really thinking
(42:28):
through the provisions of these bill, these bills, you know,
and with this one big beautiful bill Act, it's obviously
a huge piece of legislation. But even if they're not,
you know, experts in the individual areas, I think they
really owe it to us to read through everything and
to really understand it. And I think the whole like, oh,
I didn't read this part of the bill, and now
I don't support it is just the symptom of a
(42:50):
larger sort of carelessness and thoughtlessness that I really am
worried about. And I think they owe it to everyone
in both parties to be really more thoughtful and careful
about these large pieces of legislation.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Great point, Noah, And let me just ask you.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Do you feel like this bill is going to have
an impact on your life?
Speaker 13 (43:10):
Yeah?
Speaker 14 (43:10):
I mean, you know, I, as a young person, am
super excited about the future of clean energy and of
really revitalizing American manufacturing in the green spaces for my
future and for my generation's future and our kids' future.
And if this bill were to end that, that would
(43:30):
be catastrophic I think for all of us, not just
in terms of our competition with China and other nations,
but just for our nation's own prosperity.
Speaker 11 (43:40):
So that's one of.
Speaker 14 (43:40):
The many things in this bill that really worries me
and I think will directly affect me and people in
my life.
Speaker 3 (43:46):
No, thank you very much for that, Chuck.
Speaker 1 (43:50):
He brings up the idea that nobody reads the bills,
or I mean fewer people read the bills.
Speaker 5 (43:55):
Well, I love I love that He mentioned also that
he was recently in college. You know, yeah, every class
that she took in college, you know, there was some
stuff You're like, all right, I can just sort of
I can do the lecture and be okay. But there
was always one or two things you knew you had
to read, right, And you know, all I'm asking of
these members of Congress. I'm not asking you to read
every bill, but can you read the big one?
Speaker 9 (44:17):
Right?
Speaker 5 (44:17):
We're just asking you to read just one bill a year.
I mean, look, I think this is a ridiculous way
to conduct legislation, but we've been going down this road
for the entire twenty first century. Where a president comes in,
they have narrow majorities, they try to jam everything they
can in one bill. The irony here is if Donald
Trump accepted the reality that this country is divided pretty
(44:41):
fifty to fifty and said, hey, I want to work
with a group of Democrats that want to work with me,
he would actually give himself more flexibility to do certain things.
He could lose certain Republicans that maybe doesn't support his
style of economic populism, but he might be able to
find some Democrats that do. But you know, when you're
(45:01):
governing by this party line vote nonsense, you're gonna get
I think, really ineffective bills. And then here's what else happens.
What happens when the other party gets in. They just
hurry up and repeal as much as they can of
what the previous party did. They don't get to do
all of it, right. You know, John McCain prevented Obamacare
from being totally repealed, but you know, they chip away
(45:22):
at it. And I promise you Democrats will chip away
whatever gets past here. Once they get the opportunity, they'll take.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
Away some things.
Speaker 5 (45:29):
And it's just this is this is why I think,
you know, the markets are just getting very frustrated with
American America's government.
Speaker 6 (45:39):
And why voters are fed up too. Look, one of
the big themes of the Trump this second Trump term
has been the abdication of Congress from its constitutionally prescribed responsibilities.
It's not just that they stuff everything into a big bill,
because we've seen Congresses do that before, but the appropriations
process I think is going extinct. They just passed curs
(46:02):
giant funding bills to keep the government open, but they
don't thoughtfully look at the appropriations bill for each agency
and what it would do and what they want to fund.
It's like that's just too hard for Congress anymore.
Speaker 1 (46:16):
Let me just get one more call in here from Sharon,
who is in Denver, Colorado. Hi, Sharon, go ahead with
your thoughts about the bill.
Speaker 10 (46:24):
Hi.
Speaker 15 (46:25):
Well, I am very concerned about raising the debt limit
and the deficit. And I am not an economist.
Speaker 14 (46:35):
I'm a nurse.
Speaker 15 (46:38):
I guess my biggest problem, Well, I just want somebody
to actually talk about the time there was a time
in history when we were in the black, and that
was in the Clinton administration, and I just I would
love to hear that referred to. Most of my life,
(47:01):
I've heard about deficits and I you know, and I
would love to I would like, you know, nobody puts
a light on that.
Speaker 1 (47:10):
Yeah, Sharon, thank you for putting a line on it
right now. And I think we're going to do an
entire show about about this issue. But uh, Chuck Todd,
I'll just give you the last word here on the
on that. And by the way, Clinton was in the
black with the deficit, but there was still a national
debt at that.
Speaker 5 (47:27):
Still a debt, right, the deficit is the year to year.
The debt is the accumulation, right, it's your it's sort
of you're paying off your monthly statement, but maybe you
didn't pay off the entire thing.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
Look to that caller.
Speaker 5 (47:39):
Uh, you long for the days of Ross Perout because
I always credit Ross Preau with sobering up the Democrats
on fiscal responsibility and sobering up Republicans on on on
trade deals. And you know that is actually what it's
going to take, right, It's going to take an outside
force that threatens this status of the two major parties
(48:01):
on a specific issue, maybe like the debt, like Ross
Perot did. He did it on the debt, and he
did it on these trade on these trade deals, on
what was happening. He was running against NAFTA, if you recall.
But it really did create an atmosphere in Washington in
the nineties that put it at the center. Right, You
had you had Bill Clinton doing it with the Democrats.
(48:23):
He raised taxes to deal with the deficit at the
urging of Wall Street advisors like Bob Rubin and Larry Summers.
And then Republicans got Congress and then together the one
thing they could agree on was sort of si fiscal
restraining a guy like John Kasik working with Bill Clinton,
and they got it done.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
And I think that's what you need.
Speaker 5 (48:44):
You need, you're in the middle, you need, you need
a bipartisan government, bipartisanship, A perfect a perfect note to end.
Speaker 3 (48:51):
To end this hour on I want to thank my.
Speaker 1 (48:53):
Guests, Chuck Todd hosted the Chuck Toodcast, and NPR national
political correspondent Mari Lison.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Thanks so much to both of you. Thank you than
and don't forget.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
The Middle is available as a podcast in partnership with
iHeart Podcasts on the iHeart app or wherever you listen
to podcast.
Speaker 3 (49:06):
We've got an.
Speaker 1 (49:07):
Episode of our weekly extra, One Thing Trump Did coming
later this week about the idea of removing fluoride from
our drinking water. And next week we'll be back here
talking about the philosophical Middle and how we can apply
philosophy in our approach to politics.
Speaker 2 (49:22):
That's a new one, Okay. As always, you can call
in at eight four four four Middle that's eight four
four four six four three three five three, or you
can reach out and listen to the Middle dot com.
Or you can also sign up for our free weekly
newsletter and support us with a text aductible donation.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Thanks to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and
the hundreds of public radio stations making it possible for
people across the country to listen to the Middle, I'm
Jeremy Hobson, and I will talk to you next week
Host
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