September 19, 2025 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we're asking what's being lost in education in the digital age. Jeremy is joined by Kathleen deLaski, founder of the Education Design Lab and Kaila Phan, a high school English teacher at Lorain High School in Ohio. DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus calls from around the country. #education #students #classroom #screentime #apps #TikTok #Instagram #learning #digital #artificialintelligence
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
the show and from you. Thanks for making a donation
at listen toothemiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and
Tolliver to get ready for this show about what is
being lost in education in the digital age. I went
back and found an old notebook of mine from grade school.
I was nine years old, and I wrote in cursive
and it was pretty good cursive, if I do.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Say so myself.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
No Sea, I'm with DJ. My handwriting is terrible.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
It's like Sanskrit, like a doctor's handwriting. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Well, I found pages in this noteook about Harriet Tubman,
the human Heart, different kinds of maple trees, the USSR.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Which gives you a sense of that it was like
nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
And a paragraph repeated over and over in which I write,
in your notebooks, use each page both sides. Always date
your work, proofread your work, all things you had to
do before computer we're around. But as a journalist I
can say that proofreading your work is actually a very
good thing to know how to do. So this hour
we want to hear from students, parents, teachers about what
is being lost in education in the digital age, especially
(01:13):
with artificial intelligence. And we're taking your calls at eight
four four four Middle that's eight four four four six
four three.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Three five three.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Or you could write to us incursive if you want
at listen to the Middle dot com. I guess you'd
have to use a font that looks like cursive. But first,
last week on the show, we asked whether or not
you feel represented by the political process right now. Here
are some of the comments we got on our voicemail.
Speaker 5 (01:34):
My name is Ryan, I'm calling from Santa Rosa Beach, Florida.
I think for me, representation would mean that when I
go to the ballot box, I have a diverse and
well represented slate of choices, where representative diverse range of solutions.
Speaker 6 (01:51):
Hi, my name is Heidi Jones from Minneapolis, Minnesota. And no,
I don't feel representative because there has been no gun reform.
I know two of the moms whose children were shot
at and then Station School here in Minneapolis fifteen days ago,
and we still have no change from our lawmakers. And
it's really hard to feel representative when nothing has changed.
Speaker 7 (02:13):
Hi, this is Connor Richmond, calling from Houston, Texas. You
can go into a bar, into a coffee shop, have
conversations with your friends, and the vast majority of Americans
will have common sense agreements on the vast majority of
controversial issues. But the politicians that we elect continuously do
nothing about it, regardless of party.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in, and you can
hear that full show by subscribing to the Middle wherever
you listen to podcasts. And by the way, we do
have a new episode all about free speech right now
in America with journalists Mike Pesca.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
That's there as well. Wherever you listen to podcasts to
subscribe to the Middle.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
So now to our question this hour, what is being
lost in education in the digital age? Everything from basic
penmanship to critical thinking skills. Tolliver, how can people reach us?
Speaker 4 (02:56):
And you can call us at eight four four four
Middle that's eight four four four three three five three,
or you can write to us at Listen to the
Middle dot com or comment on our live stream on YouTube.
We already have some comments, so I know it's gonna
be a hot one today.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I think, so joining us this hour.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Kathleen Dlaski, founder of the education design lab and author
of the book Who Needs College Anymore? Kathleen, welcome back,
Thank you, thanks for having me at. Kayla Fan is
also with us, an English teacher at Lorraine High School
just outside of Cleveland, Ohio.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Kayla and Kayla, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 8 (03:26):
Thank you guys. I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Well, before we get to the funds, let's start with
the good, because I did ask, what's you know, what's
being lost? But the good Kathleen, what are the major
benefits of digitizing our classrooms?
Speaker 9 (03:39):
Well, I mean, for one thing, we have personalized learning
now so this this came along and maybe the nineties
where you know, now you can a teacher can figure
out how to meet the needs of different students in
a large classroom. That's that's a that's.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
A key a key piece.
Speaker 9 (03:56):
We also have access and you know, I'm I work
in the college space. And when we think about COVID,
for example, where suddenly nobody could you know, go.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
To school or to college.
Speaker 9 (04:08):
We we developed the capability to bring school to everyone
through you know, digital through zoom. You know, people complained
about it, but we were able to get it to you.
And now what's interesting is that that that access continues
on and so that that you know we have we
have a lot more there's a lot more access for people,
particularly in rural areas who can do a college class. Uh,
(04:33):
there's a lot more classes that you can get that
you couldn't get before. And I think the other thing
that we really have that I'm excited about. I hope
we'll get to this around let's say chat GPT. You're
hearing a lot about how maybe it offloads, maybe we're
offloading some of our cognitive ability, but we are onloading,
you know, as a result of of making more time
(04:56):
to buy by offloading some of the tasks that we
might otherwise have had to do ourselves, we are opening
up a lot of time for creativity and synthesizing and
building on ideas, and that that's the most exciting part
for me.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Well, I'm interested to hear what you think, Kayla.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Let me ask you that question though, first, what do
you think are the benefits as a teacher of the
use of the internet, computers and AI.
Speaker 10 (05:19):
I was going to say something so similar. Absences are
a problem that we'll get to later. But the kids
have access to it when they're not in school and
most of our schools now are one on one, so
all of the students have their own computers, and even
if they're not with us, they're still able through my
school using Google Classroom, they're still able to access all
(05:42):
of the information.
Speaker 8 (05:43):
And our curriculum is online as.
Speaker 10 (05:46):
Well, so they can read what we're reading. They can
do what we're doing and see it. And it's not
the same. We'll get to that, but it is nice.
Also a lot of the things that they can do are.
Speaker 8 (05:58):
More on their level. They're fun and are engaging.
Speaker 10 (06:02):
You know, kids like technology, so they can make a
video now instead of just writing if they don't want to.
There there are just different ways to assess their learning
and technology really helps that. And and before before COVID,
I I just remember that wasn't really a thing, you know,
it was it was either a test or an essay
kind of those are the options. And speaking for myself,
(06:26):
I'm a I'm getting my master's right now, one hundred
percent online and I it's like it's very eye opening.
Speaker 8 (06:35):
So uh, it's it's there are so many good things.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
There's a lot of benefits. Okay, so what about the downsides?
Kala the top down sides in your view, do students
still know how to write an essay?
Speaker 8 (06:47):
We're getting there. Uh, we're getting there. Chat GDP. We
can go on and on about this all day, but no,
no they can't.
Speaker 10 (06:59):
We're getting there though, We're slowly getting back into the
swing of things.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Katherine.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
What are what are the downsides from your perspective of
of of the digitization of the classroom?
Speaker 9 (07:09):
Okay, well I made the list because well is it?
I mean you can include all the things in the
digital age, including social media. I mean my list in
order of importance before we got to a AI, I
would say loss of community, you know, because we're you know,
we're treating to our corners self esteem, and that's mostly
(07:30):
the social media piece. I think tolerance. You know, we're
in our bubbles. We're getting the information that matters to us,
and so we're not getting the information that matters to
other people. We're not communing with other people. Discipline, you know,
the discipline to go and learn the thing yourself. And
I would argue serendipity, like the stuff you would come
(07:51):
across because you were mixing with people or ideas that
didn't you know, So that that's another piece. But and
now with AI, I think the biggest thing that people
are concerned about is is cognitive engagement. And you know,
we should we should talk about that.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
But and that's Cayla.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
I do wonder about AI because it is the technology
is changing so quickly that you as a teacher have
to keep up with it so that you can stay
ahead of your your students.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
But also I guess in a way you're preparing.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Them to use this technology, but not to be reliant
on it and stop thinking for themselves.
Speaker 10 (08:25):
M So one of the one of the big problems
is students will have the tendency to copy and paste
right into you know, Gemini, CHATTP, whatever else is out
there that I'm not I don't even know, but I'm
trying to teach them this year, and I've you know,
(08:46):
given them this this disclaimer of like, we're going to
actually use chat GTP this year too for my class
I teach English. And also side note, I can definitely
tell the difference between what AI generates in my tenth graders.
You know, cheating is not really an issue because it's
you didn't write this, But I want to teach them
(09:07):
how to use it and how to learn to take
that idea that maybe wasn't organic, but make it or
make it their own.
Speaker 8 (09:17):
So that's that's my goal this year.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
M Kathleen.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
I was reading an op ed about this and it
compared the use of AI to Google Maps. When you
have the map, you don't have to think about where
you're going, and that it's the same for students using chat,
GPT or Gemini or whatever.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
They don't have to think for themselves.
Speaker 9 (09:35):
Yeah, that is that's the concern in my community. So
I teach at the college level and a lot of
people are you know, sort of concerned about Like this
study that came out a few months ago.
Speaker 8 (09:44):
From MIT, that's that it.
Speaker 9 (09:47):
You know, it analyzed groups of college students who were
all doing an essay and some of them were you know,
given were told they had to write it by road
and you know themselves, and another group was allowed to
use AI to assist in a third group just kind
of like, let you know, we was able to completely
use the the uh, the you know, the AI tool,
(10:08):
and over time, over a several week period, they actually
were able to show you know, like the the brain
cells lighting up less and less for the group that
wasn't using you know that there wasn't doing any of
the work themselves. And so that started, you know, in
my community certainly a big you know a lot of
hand ringing about oh you know this, you know, we
(10:30):
have to figure out how to how to keep students engaged.
And I know I teach uh in a college in
Virginia undergraduates, and you know, we're you know what what
a lot of us, you know at my university are
looking at is, you know, how do you obviously they're
going to use chat spetia or whatever the source is,
(10:51):
how do you how do you get them to use
it in a way where they're building on it as
they go and to use it to to performed tasks
rather than just to turn in a paper. And so
we're you know, we're kind of moving from you know,
wrote and remember to kind of like you know, vet
and improve or vet and build.
Speaker 8 (11:12):
I can I actually sort of add on to.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
That, but yes, but let me have you do it
right after a short break, because we're running up against it.
But just a reminder, you can reach us at eight
four four four middle that's a four four four six
four three three five three in Taliver. I remember getting
my first email account in high school. There was so
much promise when the Internet came to the classroom.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
I still use my AOL true story. Take a listen
to this news report from Travis, Texas back in nineteen ninety.
This is a guy named Peter Hutcher from a company
called World Classroom that made it possible for kids to
learn alongside students in other countries.
Speaker 11 (11:44):
The possibility to talk with with people in other countries,
not right across town or even in another part of
the state, but for kids from here in Texas, for example,
to work with Soviet students, or to work with Dutch
students or Japanese students and share their idea, ideas and
their thoughts and do actual serious curriculum projects, scientific investigations together.
(12:07):
It's an enormously motivating and a really rich kind of
an opportunity for them.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
What he didn't know at that time in nineteen ninety
Tolliver was that with social media kids can also get
into the arguments with the Dutch and the city students too.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
You're right and stuff with a penpal to get into
an argument, you know.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
But it is like so adorable to like hear somebody
back then talk with such hope about what the Internet
will bring to the classroom.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
I know until just got my AOL simpler times.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
We'll be right back with more of the middle.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
in the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're talking about what's being lost in education
in the digital age. Tolliver, what is the number to
call in?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three. You can also write to us
at Listen to the Middle dot com or on just
about all social media.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And I'm joined by Education Design Lab founder Kathleen Dlaski
and Kayla Fann, an English teacher at Lorrain High School
in Ohio.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And Kayla, let's go back to you.
Speaker 10 (13:12):
You were about to say we were talking about AI
and one of my favorite things that I've used and
I've taught my students how to use this is typing
in a let's say, for example, a prompt that a
teacher gets them. I had a student last year at
the end of the year, come up to me and say,
(13:32):
you know, my history teacher told me to write this
and I don't understand even what it's asking.
Speaker 8 (13:37):
So I said, you know what, let's put it into AI.
Speaker 10 (13:40):
So we copied and pasted the prompt into Gemini and
I said, lower the lexile level and I taught them
that word too, which was kind of fun for me
as an English teacher, and it brought the reading level
down to what they could understand, and from there they
were able to do the assignment. So I think, Kathleen,
(14:04):
you were talking about building on their knowledge instead of
just typing, you know, having it write an essay. That's
exactly what what I use. Those those things were with
my students.
Speaker 8 (14:13):
It's very helpful.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Let me go to the phones because they are lighting up.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Ken is calling in from Joliet, Illinois, outside Chicago.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Ken, welcome to the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 12 (14:25):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 13 (14:25):
I hope you can hear me. Okay, I am yet
driving home from open house. A couple of things I
wanted to point out to me as a teacher of
twenty four years. I think resiliency, you know, and figuring
it out. Things out for themselves is very important at
the high school level. And I always say, I don't
know what jobs you're going to have in ten years,
but I do know you need to know how to collaborate,
(14:48):
and you definitely need to know you you know, have
to have resiliency, and that's not something you're born with,
it's something you've got to practice. And you know, students,
you know, I guess looking for help through AI a
little quicker than you'd hope. Not asking trends for help
(15:09):
is kind of plugging things into AI. And I do
feel that resiliency has changed, has you know, decreased along
with collaboration, where it's it's almost like my my ninth
graders have to learn how to communicate with each other,
and that's that's part COVID, but I do think it's
also working together. Why do I need you three people
(15:32):
when I could just hop on my laptop and have
this thinged out in a few seconds.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Well, and so KAY, like, what do you do about that?
Do you have any solution to that right now? Do
you use less technology in the classroom?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
As a result, it's going.
Speaker 13 (15:45):
To really depend on what I want them to do.
So I have turned to kind of like a timed
rite where I have the prompt and they can prepare
however they want to. But they're right in that puppy
in the classroom, so they can they can use whatever
tools they want to gather their thoughts. And let's say
they didn't have the thoughts. Let's say like that I
(16:07):
didn't catch the teacher's name from Ohio, where you can
plug in the prompt and it could change the lexile
so that student understands and they can kind of, you know,
use AYE as a tool replace either their friends or
a tutor or something to prepare them to you know,
(16:27):
you know, spit out their own thoughts.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Yeah, all right, Ken, John, thank you so much. I
want to get to our guests here, Kathleen, what do
you think about that?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
And again you had brought up collaboration.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
And being able to sort of work with other people,
But what did you make of what Ken had to say?
Speaker 9 (16:44):
Well, Kenn is singing from the song sheet that I'm
also singing from, and I talk in my book about
the increased I mean, we thought we were kind of
moving to an age where we thought, you know, technical
skills would kind of win the day. And I think
what Ai pushes us back. You know, it's sort of
like the pendulum swings back the other way and places
(17:05):
in importance on you know, what we used to call
soft skills, which we're now calling durable skills, which you've
mentioned a couple of them, resilience, collaboration, but critical thinking
is one of them.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
You know, oral communication is another.
Speaker 9 (17:18):
UH, initiative is another, an empathy and these are things
which you know you're not you know, chat ept can
give you some ideas on, but we you know, what
I'm advocating for and many others is to you know,
we need to credential these skills because they become the
human skills in this next age.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
That you need.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
And we've had, we've had, we've had so many parents
call in on previous shows and say, I'm worried, like
my kids aren't going to know how to get a
job in the AI dominated future.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
It's Tolliver, what were you gonna say?
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Yeah, kayle, I was gonna ask you. So when I've
used AI and I question the veracity of a lot
of the things that show up when I'm troubleshooting things
or whatnot, is that something that you've run into.
Speaker 8 (18:00):
Absolutely, it's.
Speaker 10 (18:03):
You have to just keep trying and trying again, I
think is the answer to that. And we've also taught
I've taught the kids like this isn't always accurate. This
is not always going to be the answer. So you
can rely on it to an extent, but let's limit it, right.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Jack is calling in from Denver, Colorado.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Jack, what are your thoughts on what's being lost in
education in the digital age?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 14 (18:31):
Hi, there, So this one's a little near and dear
to my heart. I'm a software engineer. I've been out
of college for about five years, and I can remember
some pretty clear conversations I had with my parents and
my now in laws about the fact that when I
went through college, I never had to read book. So
the library is really just a place for me to
study and the Internet and use Google, and so you know,
(18:52):
I kind of take I kind of lean towards the
side of the students where especially being in software. Now
we see AI, we see these incredible tools, and I
think some of the best parts of them is really
how they can lower the barrier to entry for complicated topics.
So if you look at some of the hard mass
and sciences, you look at physics, you look at like
organic chemistry. Oh my goodness, what I would have done
to have chatch ept your claws. And I was taking
(19:14):
OKM and so using it as a tool that can
kind of grow with you and can help you solve
these complicated problems I think is invaluable and will continue
to be invaluable. But I think something that's been touched
on here is I love the idea of kind of
having time to rights for writing, like trying to put
constraints around these problems so that it's hard or impossibly
(19:34):
use AI to solve them. And I wanted to get
some more perspective from you and from the guests on
how do you think curriculum can shift to kind of
help students keep that critical as critical thinking aspect of
learning while still being able to use chat gypt as
as a tool that grows with you. So I think
if it kind of is like a graphic calculator. You know,
(19:55):
I was able to take a TI eighty four into
the SAT classroom, sit down and take a test, and
that's not cheating, but that's certainly doing a lot for me, right,
And so you know, if you have a world of AI,
now what can I learn? Can we raise the ceiling.
Can we change what I'm doing in the classroom such
that when I ultimately get out of school, I'm ready
for the work?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, okay, great question.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
And I think that when I was in school, it
was a TI eight three, so they might have gone
up a level since then.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
But Cayla, what do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
How can you sort of harness the good and also
make sure that people have the critical thinking skills that
they need.
Speaker 10 (20:29):
So, first of all, all of this just just is
reminding me that teachers can't be replaced. The tool is wonderful,
but they still need that human connection and that's part
of it. But also, I'm currently doing a unit about
pen pals. It's a novel we're reading, and it's almost
like we have to as an educator and as a
(20:52):
curriculum designer, we have to go back and think about
what we should have, what we.
Speaker 8 (20:57):
Used to do twenty years ago. It's almost like it's
almost like these things.
Speaker 10 (21:02):
Without technology that when we're not you know, pen to
paper is a novelty to.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
These kids, they know how to do it? Do they
know how to write with a pen?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Uh?
Speaker 15 (21:10):
Oh?
Speaker 10 (21:11):
Actually I would say yes, it's not as uncommon as
you would think. I think as an adult, I'm worse
at it than they are. Just going to say that, yeah,
but they're so interested in this idea of hand writing
a letter to a pen pal.
Speaker 8 (21:28):
It's incredible.
Speaker 10 (21:28):
And also, this is just a side note kind of
I was having a conversation with some other teachers tonight
who her daughter is a junior high student, and the
teacher had them close all of their devices and draw
the map of the United States from memory, and it
was we did this maybe ten minutes before the show started,
and so all of the adults that were in this conversation,
(21:51):
we're doing it with the student. So I do think
that teachers know exactly what we're supposed to be doing here.
You know, I'm seeing it in my class, I'm seeing
in other classes going back to the foundations taking it home.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Let me go to Abby in Durham, North Carolina. Abby,
go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 16 (22:10):
Yeah, heyy So, I was actually just having a very
similar conversation last night, And first of all, I want
to say thank you to all of the teachers out there.
Absolutely cannot replace y'all. But one of the points that
it was brought up in the conversation was that having
immediate access to the internet to AI either eliminates or
(22:31):
significantly reduces the whole human experience of curiosity. It's like
bringing up the map example earlier, when you just pull
up Google Maps and you type in point A, how
do I get to point B? What's the quickest route?
A lot of times you're just following these instructions without
having an actual comprehension of how you got there. And
so just being able to think of a question and
(22:54):
get the answer immediately eliminates this kind of inherent skill
that we have, or even if it's not eliminating it,
it's reducing it. And it's just allowing us to ask
a question and instead of that forming an hour long
conversation like what we're talking about right now, that conversation
is done, you know, in mere minutes instead.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Wow, Kathleen, what do you think is curiosity being lost?
Speaker 17 (23:21):
Well?
Speaker 9 (23:21):
Yeah, in a way, yes, in a way, it's inviting
you to ask even more questions because they're at the
answers to questions at your fingertips, which you know, maybe
makes you go down deep into a rabbit hole, but
also opens your world. I mean, I think about the
responsibility of teachers really being to as as as Kayla did,
is to make sure that the sort of like let's
(23:43):
call them old school activities still happen. I mean, like
we took our kids, for example, on an orienteuring orienteering
trip with with compasses, not that we knew what we
were doing, but you know the idea that you you know,
forget Google maps, forget the map, you know, but like
let's go back, you know, to the to the really
old school. And I think, I mean, I'm I think
(24:06):
I'm older to anyone else, you know in this on
stage here tonight. I'm I'm I remember, you know, having
to learn like long division, which convinced me that I
was bad at math. And you know, I think about now,
I mean, now when I want to know something with math,
I'm just using chat GPT, right, And so you know,
(24:27):
would would I have had a different trajectory? I mean,
I mean, I'm perfectly happy with where I ended up,
but like, would I had a different view of my
capabilities as a learner who thought of myself as being
bad at math?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
You could use these tools exactly.
Speaker 9 (24:41):
I mean that's kind of interesting to think about.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, maybe I would have you know, maybe that the
bad grades that I got in physics and chemistry were
just because I didn't have AI to to use. Toliver,
you have been reading some of the comments coming in
and listen to the middle dot com board people saying.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Yeah, they're all AI. Shannon and Chicago says, we used
to ask other people. We would speculate with our family
at dinner, would imagine possible answers. We would exercise our minds,
you know. So she's lamenting the loss of that. And
then Lisa and Rittman, Ohio says, what really frustrates me
is that no matter how much I try to limit
screen time at home, school's use of technology is blasting
(25:17):
through those guidelines. And then Marie in Vegas teaches medical
students and she worries about the effect of technology and
AI in the context of kids having been shut ins
during COVID, and I think that's something we could bring
to our guests.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Yeah, well, and yeah, yeah, I mean, Kayla, when you
talk about this, COVID definitely comes up again and again
because it really did, as Kathleen said at the beginning,
it forced everybody to have to use technology in a
way that they hadn't before, but a lot of the
effects have been lingering and not always in.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
A good way.
Speaker 10 (25:46):
Absolutely, so I am an avid TikTok watcher and a
lot of times I will scroll on there and I
will see I think the last comment there was a
nursing teacher. Sorry if I'm wrong about that, but they
will have a like the r N test on there,
(26:09):
and they're giving the answers to this test as they're
taking it. I don't know how that's legal. I don't
know how that's possible, but that's frightening that sometimes a
big assessment or something they really need to do on
their own, with their own thoughts, and just it's so
accessible that they're just getting through it right. And no,
(26:34):
I'm sure that there are very wonderful people out there
who don't use this, but the fact that it is
out there is a little frightening.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
We've got a student on the line. I'd love to
hear from him. Ian is in Raleigh, North Carolina. Ian,
go ahead, what do you think about what's being lost
in education in the digital age?
Speaker 18 (26:53):
Yeah, So, I'm a let's engineering student, so we are
what we learn about is technology and all that stuff,
and we're expected to use AI and almost everything we do.
We teachers almost assigned stuff expecting you to use AI
with increased difficulty or other stuff, and they you have
(27:14):
to use AI all the time, even if you didn't
want to. AI is such a big part of this
new technology and how computers worked that you're required to
you Then you lose some soft skills like programming. Instead
of debugging your own code or doing stuff like that,
you would just run it through an AI and see, hey,
what's wrong with this, what's messing up? And you stick
(27:36):
it off to that. So you lose soft skills and
you lose the ability to live without AI.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Do you think that you like, we just heard somebody
say that you lose curiosity. Do you feel like you've
you lose your curiosity because you have to rely on
AI as much as you do.
Speaker 18 (27:53):
I don't think you lose curiosity. I think you'll still
have questions, and I think AI just functions to help you,
and it's that curiosity quicker. So it feels like you're
losing curiosity, you're just losing the time that curiosity takes up,
so it feels like you're using it less, but really
you're just having to look less.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, thank you very much for that call in and Kathleen,
you know that brings up another question. I wanted to
ask you about time. And we've heard this a couple
of times. It takes less time to do this thing,
so you're you're moving faster. I've also read that students
are having a harder time, like reading a full book
because of the attention span problems that we all have
(28:35):
because of social media and and just what's happening in
our world right now.
Speaker 9 (28:40):
Yeah, so that didn't start with AI. That started with
the remote. Remember when we all could, you know, suddenly,
you know, skip commercials, and now when you have to
watch a commercial, you're like, oh my gosh, you.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Know, whoever, whoever could do this right?
Speaker 9 (28:52):
So it we've been conditioned. I mean, now they say,
what gen Z has attention span of seven seconds? I
think that's probably you could probably say that for most
of us, to be honest, right, And so I think
that's you know the way that I deal with that
in my teaching because I see I feel it among
(29:12):
my students, even though I'm teaching a hands on design
sprint kind of a class where they're physically having to
like get it, you know. I make them get up
and move around, work on the whiteboard. And yet still
you know that you can see that, you know, the
sort of the you know, the mind's wandering off, and
you know, people skulking into the corner to retreat in
a hoodie or something, and so, you know, I think
(29:35):
we we have to combat that, but we just have
to recognize that that is, you know, that's the reality
that we're dealing with. And I you know, I don't
blame any particular part of the digital age for that.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
It does feel so nice, though, when you actually get
to take some time and not be distracted by anything
else and just focus on the one thing.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Tolliver.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
There was an unbelievable story earlier this year out of
Connecticut that gets to some of what we're talking about here.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Yeah, there was a student named Alisha or T. She
graduated from high school with honors, but says she was
functionally illiterate when she got to college. Listen to this
story from WRL.
Speaker 17 (30:10):
Even today, could you read this or would it take
you a long time?
Speaker 8 (30:13):
Is in class of Iya seeing his words everywhere.
Speaker 17 (30:16):
Alicia graduated from the Hartford Public School system last year,
but she says today she is illiterate. She still doesn't
know how to read or write. When she was in
early education.
Speaker 15 (30:27):
They just either tell me to stay in a corner
and slee.
Speaker 8 (30:35):
Or just draw a pictures flowers for them.
Speaker 17 (30:39):
And when she was in high school, she relied on
speech to text programs and other apps to read and
write essays.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Speech to text? Can you believe that I use it
every day?
Speaker 4 (30:48):
I'm using it right now.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I mean she was resourceful, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Seriously, we'll be right back with more of your calls
coming up on the Middle.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
This hour, we're talking about what's being lost in education
in the digital age. You can call us at eight
four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six
four three three five three, or you can reach out
at Listen to the Middle dot com. I'm joined by
Kayla Fan, an English teacher at Lorraine High School in Ohio,
and Kathleen Dulaski, the founder of the Education Design Lab.
We've got some more calls coming in, but let me
(31:19):
just read this comment from Jake and Evansville, Indiana, who
worked as a public school teacher about ten years ago
and then transitioned to be a public librarian. He says
the biggest loss in education in the digital age is
how students lose the bigger feeling of being alive with others,
not just interacting and finding community there. That is again
there's no learning of being in community. Many people today,
but especially you don't know how to ask for things,
(31:41):
look things up, even use a library. Kayla, I just wonder,
you know there's somebody who's a librarian now bringing up
the issue of libraries. Some schools, I guess, have been
getting rid of their libraries because of all the technology
that's coming. Do you have a library still in your school?
Speaker 19 (31:55):
We do.
Speaker 10 (31:57):
We call it the Media Center now and it's been
turned into a student I forget how we say this,
but it's basically a hangout for the students and that's
not a bad thing either.
Speaker 8 (32:12):
It's a place for them to go.
Speaker 10 (32:13):
I take my students there when we're reading to do
small group instruction. But our library has definitely been cut
in half.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Very interesting, Kathleen.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Is there a problem do you think if there's I mean,
like we're lamenting things that you know used to be around,
But is there a problem if schools don't have libraries?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
They just have media centers.
Speaker 9 (32:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a reality that if
they're not going and checking out books. I mean, the
books do a good job of like muffling noise if
you want a quiet place, but they're not, you know,
if they're not serving the purpose that the students start
reading them because they're accessing everything online anyway.
Speaker 19 (32:54):
You know.
Speaker 9 (32:55):
I'm yes, I'm more in the loss of it, but
I'm trying to be practical here.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Right Finley is calling in from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I Finley,
go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
Hello.
Speaker 20 (33:07):
My thoughts are that kids in school are not being
able to read like they used to go too. So
kids can see a word and try and sound it out,
but it won't be right and they won't know what
it means. So like maybe the word judgmental, or like
long words like representative, they'll see that and maybe not
know what that means, not be able to read it
(33:29):
and put together what that word means.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Are you speaking from experience? Are you? Are you a
student yourself?
Speaker 20 (33:36):
Yes, I'm going to see that in school right now.
I'm in high school senior. And sometimes they'll be put
to read read aloud in school and you know they'll
read slowly and struggle to put through words that are
you know, fairly easy for me to read?
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And are do you do you blame technology for that? Finley?
Speaker 20 (33:56):
I think that yes, technology is to wain because when
kids are texting, they'll shorten words a lot and use
like spellings for you know, the word you, they'll put
y eh you instead of y o you, and you
know it shortening things. Does you know?
Speaker 3 (34:14):
And let me ask you one more thing, since we've
got a high school student on the line, do you
use AI a lot? Do you do you use like
chat GPT to do your work or do you stay
away from that?
Speaker 20 (34:25):
I tried to stay away from it, but I know
a lot of kids in my school. I'll hear the
teacher getting this. I mean, I'll be like, I'm just
gonna put through suit shob GPT or I'm just going
to take a screech out of this and put it
through Google lens. Because one thing in my school is
Wikipedia is not. Wikipedia is blocked, but Google is not.
Because some discorting morning announcements in school are through YouTube.
(34:46):
So they'll play that on YouTube or you'll have to
google question and it'll be on there, but Wikipedia is
block and one thing you can do is take a
screenshot and upload it and Google lens and it will
give you the answer to anything you want. So you
can get a test and it will be locked, but
you can Google lends it, screenshot that and you'll get
the answers to that, and teacher can't do anything about it.
It's Google.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Finley, thank you so much for listening and thank you
for calling. Really appreciate it, Kayla. For our viewers on YouTube,
they can see that you were nodding there along with Finley.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
But what do you think about that?
Speaker 10 (35:19):
So his point about Google lens is just kind of
funny to me because I just remember long ago I
forgot about Google lens. But I remember in math specifically,
I had a co teacher who was a math teacher,
and she was so frustrated because she would give these
students homework. Because I'm not an advocate for homework personally,
(35:40):
but in math class you have to practice that skill
that it's not a skill that you could just work
on in the classroom, you know. But she was so
frustrated because they would just take a picture, put it
on Google lens, and then they would get the right answer.
But in math classes, you still have to show the
work and Google lens doesn't necessarily do that. But I
just remember a coworker with a math teacher. She's very
(36:03):
frustrated with the Google lens.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
I've never used Google lens before, never.
Speaker 8 (36:10):
I actually didn't realize it was still around.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Well, I guess it must be the kids keep.
Speaker 8 (36:15):
It a secret from us. They're resourceful.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Vanessa is calling from Saint Charles, Virginia. Vanessa, what do
you think about what's being lost in education in the
digital age?
Speaker 21 (36:28):
Hi, the thanks for taking my call. I'm going to
bring it back to COVID again. I know that we
always kind of go back there, but I feel like
this is definitely a relevant thing with gen Z.
Speaker 16 (36:39):
So.
Speaker 21 (36:40):
I was in a veterinary technology program during COVID in
twenty twenty one, and it was a hybrid program.
Speaker 14 (36:48):
So I was.
Speaker 21 (36:49):
Learning online about how to perform like a complete blood
count on a microscope, how to draw blood from veins,
all online versus where if I was in person, I
would be doing that on a microscope and on you know,
a dog or cat. So I was wondering, will AI
have an effect on the hard skills. Will it come
(37:13):
into the like technology uh programs where you're where you're
working with your hands and stuff, and how will that
affect how people are able to succeed in those jobs.
If they're using AI and they're learning online and not
able to learn a more like physical hands on manner,
(37:34):
does that take away from learning hands on?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Good questions, Vanessa, Kathleen, did you have an answer for
that question.
Speaker 9 (37:42):
Yeah, this is something that we that we work on
it the Education Design Lab, which is you know, creating
shorter term programs than a full college degree, and often
they are technical programs. And one of the reasons they
need to be shorter is because the technology changes so
quickly often.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
That you need you know, the.
Speaker 9 (38:00):
The veterinarian role might not change, but the technology you're
using does. And so yes, COVID kind of pointed out that, wow,
it's really hard to do this online. But I think
it also taught a lot of the you know, simulation
companies and now AI companies are figuring out how to
do simulation. And some of it's like augmented reality or
(38:23):
virtual reality to you allow you to actually, you know,
pretty well simulate in a way that somebody would still
hire you to do that role. I mean, obviously there's exceptions,
and you'd want to get into a real life situation
when you can. But it's helping to democratize. Actually, some
of these job training programs that you know before didn't
have enough slots for people to go into.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
Let me get to another caller. Joseph is calling from
full Share, Texas. Joseph, go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 22 (38:54):
Hi, thank you. Yeah, I've been enjoying the conversation. I'm
going back into teaching after ten years, and I use
AI to you know, to write up menus and things
like that. But what has led to all this wonderful
technology was people, philosophers, thinkers being alone with their thoughts.
(39:15):
And you know what's hindered at what's been hindered is
that time that students get, even away from school to
be alone in their thoughts. I still journal, and it's
it's very rare to just be able to put down
my phone and take my journal with me and a
(39:36):
pen and go somewhere and just be alone and write
ways from scratch. I'm also an author, so I know
the value of that, and I think that is just
something that is being lost. But at the same time,
the benefit of things like AI if students learn to
(39:56):
use it this way. And I've been thinking about this
a lot going back into education, is they need to
learn to have their original thoughts and then you know,
maybe treat AI as a sounding board, right, you know,
how far can they take those thoughts? Yeah, and just
you know that that might be something to do.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Great points, uh kayla on the issue of people having
time to actually think their thoughts and be alone with
their thoughts.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Do you think about that as a teacher.
Speaker 10 (40:29):
So one of the things that I'm trying to implement
this year is time for the students to do that,
and it's it doesn't usually happen in a classroom. I'm
not gonna I'm gonna be honest there. So, like I
said I mentioned earlier, we're reading this novel and I
have been taking my kids outside and just letting them
(40:49):
read in small groups, letting them read silently, or a
couple of times I've read out loud to them.
Speaker 8 (40:55):
And even though that's you know, not quiet time with.
Speaker 10 (40:59):
Their thoughts, it is quiet time, and I would say
ninety percent percent of them are taking advantage of it.
So I'm going back to the thought of. It's almost
a novelty. They are just constantly on their phones. So
when they're allowed that time and sort of, you know,
we mandated it. We're not allowed to have phones in
schools in Ohio. And so now that they have to
(41:23):
put their phones away, they have to use their brains.
They have to be outside and in the sunshine with
the grass. You know, they're actually really taking advantage of it.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
Yeah, that's interesting. Chris is calling in from Rocky Hill, Connecticut. Chris,
go ahead, Yes, I'm.
Speaker 15 (41:40):
Trying to match you know, what the data is via
SAT scores high school scores to the social trends over
the timeline of ten years. Is there such a thing
that exists.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Well, I mean it's a good question, Kathleen.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Do we know how SAT scores or the assessment scores
I guess in high schools and things like that have changed.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
They're not doing very well right now. I don't think. Yeah,
I don't.
Speaker 9 (42:08):
I don't know about SAT scores specifically. I mean test
scores generally are you know, are in very bad shape.
US student test scores like in reading in math are
dropping and people are not you know, I mean, there's
all kinds of theories as to why, but certainly they
track with the with the advent of social media, you know,
(42:30):
sort of around twenty twelve is when the numbers started,
you know, showing sign you know, sort of signs of dropping.
So you know, people are making that correlation. I haven't seen.
I can't speak to SAT scores specifically.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
A lot of.
Speaker 9 (42:43):
Schools are becoming SAT optional, so they're becoming you know,
SAT scores are becoming less important in the in the
scheme of you know, college apicay.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Right exactly, especially since covid mark is calling in from
San Antonio, Texas high Mark, what do you think is
being lost in education in the digital age?
Speaker 12 (43:01):
Well, I would like to just comment, I'm something very
interesting that I have found. I'm a technology instructor at
a local library and my wife is a teacher, and
what we have found is that even with all this
input of technology, of everyone having a laptop and things
like that, at the various levels of school, they're not
teaching how to use these devices. I have found many
(43:23):
team teams coming into my programs that they don't know
how to put their fingers on the keyboard in order
to type something. They don't know the difference between a
left click and a right click, and yet they're using
they're supposedly using these every day in school. So I
just was curious from your guests to know if that's
(43:44):
you know, is that a factor, like are they teaching
things like I remember going to typing class, So I
just that's the open question.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
I don't think we had typing class in my school,
but we definitely had a computer science classman to learn
all these sort of basic things. KYLEA, Do your students,
like know the basics of how to use these?
Speaker 10 (44:02):
No, you know, no, this is this is yeah, Actually
they've been they've had a computer. My student, my tenth
graders have had a computer in their hands for five
or six years whatever, you know, five years since COVID.
Speaker 8 (44:15):
And they still, you know, what is it called, like
hunt and peck.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
For the on the keyboard. They don't know how to
type properly right, And you.
Speaker 10 (44:23):
Know, I'm thirty eight years old. I had a typing
class and it's free out there. I don't know why
we're not utilizing that, especially when it is so common.
Speaker 8 (44:32):
And maybe it also has to do with the fact that.
Speaker 10 (44:34):
They're on their phones, you know, so the phone texting
is quite different than a keyboard, so maybe that has
something to do.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
Or now they can like do the speech to text
and they don't even have to tey anymore. I'm going
to sneak one more call in and it is going
to be Sam, who's calling from Rhode Island. Sam, go
ahead briefly with your thoughts.
Speaker 15 (44:56):
Hi.
Speaker 23 (44:57):
My two points is that PE is removing a lot
of the joy from education and a lot of the
like interactive aspect with your teachers. I remember, like when
I first started high school, our teachers had to make
all of their own curriculums. But now pre COVID, they
(45:18):
all transition to doing ones that were online and it
was all just teaching off of a computer and off
of a book online, and our teachers really interacted and
did less stuff with us, and it really made it
more miserable.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Are you you said when you first started high school?
Are you still in high school now?
Speaker 19 (45:35):
No?
Speaker 23 (45:35):
I'm in college. I graduated in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 22 (45:39):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
And in college, are you finding that you know you're
using technology too much, not enough or just right?
Speaker 23 (45:47):
I think college is just right. I think specifically high
school is where everything was going wrong.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Sam, thank you very much. And Kathleen, I'll just give
you the last word. I mean, we've heard a lot
of this like loss of joy, of community, that kind
of thing. Is that the takeaway here?
Speaker 9 (46:04):
I think I think that we're in the eye of
the cyclone right this minute, like we don't know where
it's going to land, and so I don't think we
should pass judgment. And I feel I do for bad
for this couple of years of students because they're really
totally the guinea pigs while we're trying to figure it out. Right,
we're inventing this as we go along with them. So
I think when we come out on the other side
(46:25):
of this in like two years, that we're going to
have best practices and you know, the caller when if
you were in high school at that point, would feel
a lot better about the joy.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
We're going to come out on the other side of
this in two years. Kathleen Delaski, you made news there.
I want to thank my guests, Kathleen Delaski, the founder
of the Education Design Lab, author of the book Who
Needs College Anymore? And Kayla Fan and English teacher at
Lorraine High School in Ohio.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Thanks so much. To both of you for a great conversation.
Speaker 8 (46:53):
Absolutely, thank you for having us.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
Thank you, And before we go today, I want to
take a moment to remember one of the very first
guests that we had on this show when it started
as a weekly broadcast almost two years ago. That was
former Illinois Governor Jim Edgar, who passed away earlier this
week after a battle with cancer. He was seventy nine.
Edgar was a Republican who knew how to work across
the isle. He had a good working relationship with the
(47:17):
Democratic mayor of Chicago at the time, Richard Daily. He
talked with us about the importance of bipartisanship and treating people,
even your political opponents, with civility.
Speaker 19 (47:28):
You know politicians. Everybody said, oh they worried about is
getting reelected. Well, you want to get reelected, but you
want to do something while you're there. If you don't,
you've made a big mistake. Because that's not a great profession.
If you don't want to get something done, the money's
not that good and the hours are lousy, and people
are mad at you all the time. So to get
something done, especially for a Republican in Illinois, you have
(47:50):
to reach across the aisle.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
You have to work with Democrats.
Speaker 19 (47:54):
Illinois is a very diverse state and there are all
kinds of points of view, and you've got to respect
those points to you and work with him.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
You know, not always you're going to agree.
Speaker 19 (48:03):
But I do think if you treat people with civility
and you get to know him personally, you can get
a lot more done. I wanted to get things done, yeah,
And I have to say, you set aside the political affiliation.
There isn't all that much difference. A lot of very
conservative Republicans and very liberal Democrats have a lot of
(48:23):
common interest in things, so you try to build off that.
You try to find out where you agree before you
get involved in the things you disagree on.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
A poignant message, especially right now.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
We're going to be doing a special podcast in the
next few days about the legacy of Jim Edgar. To
subscribe to the Middle wherever you get your podcast, and
next week we'll be right back here talking about the
spirit of American creativity and asking you, whether you are
an artist or a musician or an entrepreneur, why do
you create.
Speaker 4 (48:55):
Our number is eight four four four Middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can read out it listen to the Middle dot com,
where you can also sign up for our free weekly
newsletter and send us your ideas for future show topics.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yes, please do.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
The Middle is brought to you by LONGNOK Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmustas, John barth, Ana Kadeshler,
and Brandon Condritz.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Our technical director is Steve Mork.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Thanks to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and
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I'm Jeremy Hobson. I will talk to you next week.
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
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at listen toothemiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 3 (00:14):
I'm Jeremy Hobson along with our house DJ Tolliver and
Tolliver to get ready for this show about what is
being lost in education in the digital age. I went
back and found an old notebook of mine from grade school.
I was nine years old, and I wrote in cursive
and it was pretty good cursive, if I do.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Say so myself.
Speaker 4 (00:32):
No Sea, I'm with DJ. My handwriting is terrible.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
It's like Sanskrit, like a doctor's handwriting. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
Well, I found pages in this noteook about Harriet Tubman,
the human Heart, different kinds of maple trees, the USSR.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Which gives you a sense of that it was like
nineteen ninety one.
Speaker 3 (00:49):
And a paragraph repeated over and over in which I write,
in your notebooks, use each page both sides. Always date
your work, proofread your work, all things you had to
do before computer we're around. But as a journalist I
can say that proofreading your work is actually a very
good thing to know how to do. So this hour
we want to hear from students, parents, teachers about what
is being lost in education in the digital age, especially
(01:13):
with artificial intelligence. And we're taking your calls at eight
four four four Middle that's eight four four four six
four three.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Three five three.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Or you could write to us incursive if you want
at listen to the Middle dot com. I guess you'd
have to use a font that looks like cursive. But first,
last week on the show, we asked whether or not
you feel represented by the political process right now. Here
are some of the comments we got on our voicemail.
Speaker 5 (01:34):
My name is Ryan, I'm calling from Santa Rosa Beach, Florida.
I think for me, representation would mean that when I
go to the ballot box, I have a diverse and
well represented slate of choices, where representative diverse range of solutions.
Speaker 6 (01:51):
Hi, my name is Heidi Jones from Minneapolis, Minnesota. And no,
I don't feel representative because there has been no gun reform.
I know two of the moms whose children were shot
at and then Station School here in Minneapolis fifteen days ago,
and we still have no change from our lawmakers. And
it's really hard to feel representative when nothing has changed.
Speaker 7 (02:13):
Hi, this is Connor Richmond, calling from Houston, Texas. You
can go into a bar, into a coffee shop, have
conversations with your friends, and the vast majority of Americans
will have common sense agreements on the vast majority of
controversial issues. But the politicians that we elect continuously do
nothing about it, regardless of party.
Speaker 3 (02:33):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in, and you can
hear that full show by subscribing to the Middle wherever
you listen to podcasts. And by the way, we do
have a new episode all about free speech right now
in America with journalists Mike Pesca.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
That's there as well. Wherever you listen to podcasts to
subscribe to the Middle.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
So now to our question this hour, what is being
lost in education in the digital age? Everything from basic
penmanship to critical thinking skills. Tolliver, how can people reach us?
Speaker 4 (02:56):
And you can call us at eight four four four
Middle that's eight four four four three three five three,
or you can write to us at Listen to the
Middle dot com or comment on our live stream on YouTube.
We already have some comments, so I know it's gonna
be a hot one today.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
I think, so joining us this hour.
Speaker 3 (03:11):
Kathleen Dlaski, founder of the education design lab and author
of the book Who Needs College Anymore? Kathleen, welcome back,
Thank you, thanks for having me at. Kayla Fan is
also with us, an English teacher at Lorraine High School
just outside of Cleveland, Ohio.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Kayla and Kayla, welcome to the middle.
Speaker 8 (03:26):
Thank you guys. I'm very excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Well, before we get to the funds, let's start with
the good, because I did ask, what's you know, what's
being lost? But the good Kathleen, what are the major
benefits of digitizing our classrooms?
Speaker 9 (03:39):
Well, I mean, for one thing, we have personalized learning
now so this this came along and maybe the nineties
where you know, now you can a teacher can figure
out how to meet the needs of different students in
a large classroom. That's that's a that's.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
A key a key piece.
Speaker 9 (03:56):
We also have access and you know, I'm I work
in the college space. And when we think about COVID,
for example, where suddenly nobody could you know, go.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
To school or to college.
Speaker 9 (04:08):
We we developed the capability to bring school to everyone
through you know, digital through zoom. You know, people complained
about it, but we were able to get it to you.
And now what's interesting is that that that access continues
on and so that that you know we have we
have a lot more there's a lot more access for people,
particularly in rural areas who can do a college class. Uh,
(04:33):
there's a lot more classes that you can get that
you couldn't get before. And I think the other thing
that we really have that I'm excited about. I hope
we'll get to this around let's say chat GPT. You're
hearing a lot about how maybe it offloads, maybe we're
offloading some of our cognitive ability, but we are onloading,
you know, as a result of of making more time
(04:56):
to buy by offloading some of the tasks that we
might otherwise have had to do ourselves, we are opening
up a lot of time for creativity and synthesizing and
building on ideas, and that that's the most exciting part
for me.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
Well, I'm interested to hear what you think, Kayla.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Let me ask you that question though, first, what do
you think are the benefits as a teacher of the
use of the internet, computers and AI.
Speaker 10 (05:19):
I was going to say something so similar. Absences are
a problem that we'll get to later. But the kids
have access to it when they're not in school and
most of our schools now are one on one, so
all of the students have their own computers, and even
if they're not with us, they're still able through my
school using Google Classroom, they're still able to access all
(05:42):
of the information.
Speaker 8 (05:43):
And our curriculum is online as.
Speaker 10 (05:46):
Well, so they can read what we're reading. They can
do what we're doing and see it. And it's not
the same. We'll get to that, but it is nice.
Also a lot of the things that they can do are.
Speaker 8 (05:58):
More on their level. They're fun and are engaging.
Speaker 10 (06:02):
You know, kids like technology, so they can make a
video now instead of just writing if they don't want to.
There there are just different ways to assess their learning
and technology really helps that. And and before before COVID,
I I just remember that wasn't really a thing, you know,
it was it was either a test or an essay
kind of those are the options. And speaking for myself,
(06:26):
I'm a I'm getting my master's right now, one hundred
percent online and I it's like it's very eye opening.
Speaker 8 (06:35):
So uh, it's it's there are so many good things.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
There's a lot of benefits. Okay, so what about the downsides?
Kala the top down sides in your view, do students
still know how to write an essay?
Speaker 8 (06:47):
We're getting there. Uh, we're getting there. Chat GDP. We
can go on and on about this all day, but no,
no they can't.
Speaker 10 (06:59):
We're getting there though, We're slowly getting back into the
swing of things.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Katherine.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
What are what are the downsides from your perspective of
of of the digitization of the classroom?
Speaker 9 (07:09):
Okay, well I made the list because well is it?
I mean you can include all the things in the
digital age, including social media. I mean my list in
order of importance before we got to a AI, I
would say loss of community, you know, because we're you know,
we're treating to our corners self esteem, and that's mostly
(07:30):
the social media piece. I think tolerance. You know, we're
in our bubbles. We're getting the information that matters to us,
and so we're not getting the information that matters to
other people. We're not communing with other people. Discipline, you know,
the discipline to go and learn the thing yourself. And
I would argue serendipity, like the stuff you would come
(07:51):
across because you were mixing with people or ideas that
didn't you know, So that that's another piece. But and
now with AI, I think the biggest thing that people
are concerned about is is cognitive engagement. And you know,
we should we should talk about that.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
But and that's Cayla.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
I do wonder about AI because it is the technology
is changing so quickly that you as a teacher have
to keep up with it so that you can stay
ahead of your your students.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
But also I guess in a way you're preparing.
Speaker 3 (08:20):
Them to use this technology, but not to be reliant
on it and stop thinking for themselves.
Speaker 10 (08:25):
M So one of the one of the big problems
is students will have the tendency to copy and paste
right into you know, Gemini, CHATTP, whatever else is out
there that I'm not I don't even know, but I'm
trying to teach them this year, and I've you know,
(08:46):
given them this this disclaimer of like, we're going to
actually use chat GTP this year too for my class
I teach English. And also side note, I can definitely
tell the difference between what AI generates in my tenth graders.
You know, cheating is not really an issue because it's
you didn't write this, But I want to teach them
(09:07):
how to use it and how to learn to take
that idea that maybe wasn't organic, but make it or
make it their own.
Speaker 8 (09:17):
So that's that's my goal this year.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
M Kathleen.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
I was reading an op ed about this and it
compared the use of AI to Google Maps. When you
have the map, you don't have to think about where
you're going, and that it's the same for students using chat,
GPT or Gemini or whatever.
Speaker 2 (09:32):
They don't have to think for themselves.
Speaker 9 (09:35):
Yeah, that is that's the concern in my community. So
I teach at the college level and a lot of
people are you know, sort of concerned about Like this
study that came out a few months ago.
Speaker 8 (09:44):
From MIT, that's that it.
Speaker 9 (09:47):
You know, it analyzed groups of college students who were
all doing an essay and some of them were you know,
given were told they had to write it by road
and you know themselves, and another group was allowed to
use AI to assist in a third group just kind
of like, let you know, we was able to completely
use the the uh, the you know, the AI tool,
(10:08):
and over time, over a several week period, they actually
were able to show you know, like the the brain
cells lighting up less and less for the group that
wasn't using you know that there wasn't doing any of
the work themselves. And so that started, you know, in
my community certainly a big you know a lot of
hand ringing about oh you know this, you know, we
(10:30):
have to figure out how to how to keep students engaged.
And I know I teach uh in a college in
Virginia undergraduates, and you know, we're you know what what
a lot of us, you know at my university are
looking at is, you know, how do you obviously they're
going to use chat spetia or whatever the source is,
(10:51):
how do you how do you get them to use
it in a way where they're building on it as
they go and to use it to to performed tasks
rather than just to turn in a paper. And so
we're you know, we're kind of moving from you know,
wrote and remember to kind of like you know, vet
and improve or vet and build.
Speaker 8 (11:12):
I can I actually sort of add on to.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
That, but yes, but let me have you do it
right after a short break, because we're running up against it.
But just a reminder, you can reach us at eight
four four four middle that's a four four four six
four three three five three in Taliver. I remember getting
my first email account in high school. There was so
much promise when the Internet came to the classroom.
Speaker 4 (11:30):
I still use my AOL true story. Take a listen
to this news report from Travis, Texas back in nineteen ninety.
This is a guy named Peter Hutcher from a company
called World Classroom that made it possible for kids to
learn alongside students in other countries.
Speaker 11 (11:44):
The possibility to talk with with people in other countries,
not right across town or even in another part of
the state, but for kids from here in Texas, for example,
to work with Soviet students, or to work with Dutch
students or Japanese students and share their idea, ideas and
their thoughts and do actual serious curriculum projects, scientific investigations together.
(12:07):
It's an enormously motivating and a really rich kind of
an opportunity for them.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
What he didn't know at that time in nineteen ninety
Tolliver was that with social media kids can also get
into the arguments with the Dutch and the city students too.
Speaker 4 (12:21):
You're right and stuff with a penpal to get into
an argument, you know.
Speaker 3 (12:24):
But it is like so adorable to like hear somebody
back then talk with such hope about what the Internet
will bring to the classroom.
Speaker 4 (12:33):
I know until just got my AOL simpler times.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
We'll be right back with more of the middle.
Speaker 3 (12:40):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
in the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle geographically, politically and philosophically,
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're talking about what's being lost in education
in the digital age. Tolliver, what is the number to
call in?
Speaker 4 (12:56):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three. You can also write to us
at Listen to the Middle dot com or on just
about all social media.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
And I'm joined by Education Design Lab founder Kathleen Dlaski
and Kayla Fann, an English teacher at Lorrain High School
in Ohio.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And Kayla, let's go back to you.
Speaker 10 (13:12):
You were about to say we were talking about AI
and one of my favorite things that I've used and
I've taught my students how to use this is typing
in a let's say, for example, a prompt that a
teacher gets them. I had a student last year at
the end of the year, come up to me and say,
(13:32):
you know, my history teacher told me to write this
and I don't understand even what it's asking.
Speaker 8 (13:37):
So I said, you know what, let's put it into AI.
Speaker 10 (13:40):
So we copied and pasted the prompt into Gemini and
I said, lower the lexile level and I taught them
that word too, which was kind of fun for me
as an English teacher, and it brought the reading level
down to what they could understand, and from there they
were able to do the assignment. So I think, Kathleen,
(14:04):
you were talking about building on their knowledge instead of
just typing, you know, having it write an essay. That's
exactly what what I use. Those those things were with
my students.
Speaker 8 (14:13):
It's very helpful.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Let me go to the phones because they are lighting up.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
Ken is calling in from Joliet, Illinois, outside Chicago.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Ken, welcome to the middle. Go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 12 (14:25):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 13 (14:25):
I hope you can hear me. Okay, I am yet
driving home from open house. A couple of things I
wanted to point out to me as a teacher of
twenty four years. I think resiliency, you know, and figuring
it out. Things out for themselves is very important at
the high school level. And I always say, I don't
know what jobs you're going to have in ten years,
but I do know you need to know how to collaborate,
(14:48):
and you definitely need to know you you know, have
to have resiliency, and that's not something you're born with,
it's something you've got to practice. And you know, students,
you know, I guess looking for help through AI a
little quicker than you'd hope. Not asking trends for help
(15:09):
is kind of plugging things into AI. And I do
feel that resiliency has changed, has you know, decreased along
with collaboration, where it's it's almost like my my ninth
graders have to learn how to communicate with each other,
and that's that's part COVID, but I do think it's
also working together. Why do I need you three people
(15:32):
when I could just hop on my laptop and have
this thinged out in a few seconds.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Well, and so KAY, like, what do you do about that?
Do you have any solution to that right now? Do
you use less technology in the classroom?
Speaker 2 (15:42):
As a result, it's going.
Speaker 13 (15:45):
To really depend on what I want them to do.
So I have turned to kind of like a timed
rite where I have the prompt and they can prepare
however they want to. But they're right in that puppy
in the classroom, so they can they can use whatever
tools they want to gather their thoughts. And let's say
they didn't have the thoughts. Let's say like that I
(16:07):
didn't catch the teacher's name from Ohio, where you can
plug in the prompt and it could change the lexile
so that student understands and they can kind of, you know,
use AYE as a tool replace either their friends or
a tutor or something to prepare them to you know,
(16:27):
you know, spit out their own thoughts.
Speaker 3 (16:29):
Yeah, all right, Ken, John, thank you so much. I
want to get to our guests here, Kathleen, what do
you think about that?
Speaker 2 (16:38):
And again you had brought up collaboration.
Speaker 3 (16:40):
And being able to sort of work with other people,
But what did you make of what Ken had to say?
Speaker 9 (16:44):
Well, Kenn is singing from the song sheet that I'm
also singing from, and I talk in my book about
the increased I mean, we thought we were kind of
moving to an age where we thought, you know, technical
skills would kind of win the day. And I think
what Ai pushes us back. You know, it's sort of
like the pendulum swings back the other way and places
(17:05):
in importance on you know, what we used to call
soft skills, which we're now calling durable skills, which you've
mentioned a couple of them, resilience, collaboration, but critical thinking
is one of them.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
You know, oral communication is another.
Speaker 9 (17:18):
UH, initiative is another, an empathy and these are things
which you know you're not you know, chat ept can
give you some ideas on, but we you know, what
I'm advocating for and many others is to you know,
we need to credential these skills because they become the
human skills in this next age.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
That you need.
Speaker 3 (17:37):
And we've had, we've had, we've had so many parents
call in on previous shows and say, I'm worried, like
my kids aren't going to know how to get a
job in the AI dominated future.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
It's Tolliver, what were you gonna say?
Speaker 4 (17:48):
Yeah, kayle, I was gonna ask you. So when I've
used AI and I question the veracity of a lot
of the things that show up when I'm troubleshooting things
or whatnot, is that something that you've run into.
Speaker 8 (18:00):
Absolutely, it's.
Speaker 10 (18:03):
You have to just keep trying and trying again, I
think is the answer to that. And we've also taught
I've taught the kids like this isn't always accurate. This
is not always going to be the answer. So you
can rely on it to an extent, but let's limit it, right.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Jack is calling in from Denver, Colorado.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Jack, what are your thoughts on what's being lost in
education in the digital age?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Yeah?
Speaker 14 (18:31):
Hi, there, So this one's a little near and dear
to my heart. I'm a software engineer. I've been out
of college for about five years, and I can remember
some pretty clear conversations I had with my parents and
my now in laws about the fact that when I
went through college, I never had to read book. So
the library is really just a place for me to
study and the Internet and use Google, and so you know,
(18:52):
I kind of take I kind of lean towards the
side of the students where especially being in software. Now
we see AI, we see these incredible tools, and I
think some of the best parts of them is really
how they can lower the barrier to entry for complicated topics.
So if you look at some of the hard mass
and sciences, you look at physics, you look at like
organic chemistry. Oh my goodness, what I would have done
to have chatch ept your claws. And I was taking
(19:14):
OKM and so using it as a tool that can
kind of grow with you and can help you solve
these complicated problems I think is invaluable and will continue
to be invaluable. But I think something that's been touched
on here is I love the idea of kind of
having time to rights for writing, like trying to put
constraints around these problems so that it's hard or impossibly
(19:34):
use AI to solve them. And I wanted to get
some more perspective from you and from the guests on
how do you think curriculum can shift to kind of
help students keep that critical as critical thinking aspect of
learning while still being able to use chat gypt as
as a tool that grows with you. So I think
if it kind of is like a graphic calculator. You know,
(19:55):
I was able to take a TI eighty four into
the SAT classroom, sit down and take a test, and
that's not cheating, but that's certainly doing a lot for me, right,
And so you know, if you have a world of AI,
now what can I learn? Can we raise the ceiling.
Can we change what I'm doing in the classroom such
that when I ultimately get out of school, I'm ready
for the work?
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Yeah, okay, great question.
Speaker 3 (20:16):
And I think that when I was in school, it
was a TI eight three, so they might have gone
up a level since then.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
But Cayla, what do you think about that?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
How can you sort of harness the good and also
make sure that people have the critical thinking skills that
they need.
Speaker 10 (20:29):
So, first of all, all of this just just is
reminding me that teachers can't be replaced. The tool is wonderful,
but they still need that human connection and that's part
of it. But also, I'm currently doing a unit about
pen pals. It's a novel we're reading, and it's almost
like we have to as an educator and as a
(20:52):
curriculum designer, we have to go back and think about
what we should have, what we.
Speaker 8 (20:57):
Used to do twenty years ago. It's almost like it's
almost like these things.
Speaker 10 (21:02):
Without technology that when we're not you know, pen to
paper is a novelty to.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
These kids, they know how to do it? Do they
know how to write with a pen?
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Uh?
Speaker 15 (21:10):
Oh?
Speaker 10 (21:11):
Actually I would say yes, it's not as uncommon as
you would think. I think as an adult, I'm worse
at it than they are. Just going to say that, yeah,
but they're so interested in this idea of hand writing
a letter to a pen pal.
Speaker 8 (21:28):
It's incredible.
Speaker 10 (21:28):
And also, this is just a side note kind of
I was having a conversation with some other teachers tonight
who her daughter is a junior high student, and the
teacher had them close all of their devices and draw
the map of the United States from memory, and it
was we did this maybe ten minutes before the show started,
and so all of the adults that were in this conversation,
(21:51):
we're doing it with the student. So I do think
that teachers know exactly what we're supposed to be doing here.
You know, I'm seeing it in my class, I'm seeing
in other classes going back to the foundations taking it home.
Speaker 3 (22:04):
Let me go to Abby in Durham, North Carolina. Abby,
go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 16 (22:10):
Yeah, heyy So, I was actually just having a very
similar conversation last night, And first of all, I want
to say thank you to all of the teachers out there.
Absolutely cannot replace y'all. But one of the points that
it was brought up in the conversation was that having
immediate access to the internet to AI either eliminates or
(22:31):
significantly reduces the whole human experience of curiosity. It's like
bringing up the map example earlier, when you just pull
up Google Maps and you type in point A, how
do I get to point B? What's the quickest route?
A lot of times you're just following these instructions without
having an actual comprehension of how you got there. And
so just being able to think of a question and
(22:54):
get the answer immediately eliminates this kind of inherent skill
that we have, or even if it's not eliminating it,
it's reducing it. And it's just allowing us to ask
a question and instead of that forming an hour long
conversation like what we're talking about right now, that conversation
is done, you know, in mere minutes instead.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Wow, Kathleen, what do you think is curiosity being lost?
Speaker 17 (23:21):
Well?
Speaker 9 (23:21):
Yeah, in a way, yes, in a way, it's inviting
you to ask even more questions because they're at the
answers to questions at your fingertips, which you know, maybe
makes you go down deep into a rabbit hole, but
also opens your world. I mean, I think about the
responsibility of teachers really being to as as as Kayla did,
is to make sure that the sort of like let's
(23:43):
call them old school activities still happen. I mean, like
we took our kids, for example, on an orienteuring orienteering
trip with with compasses, not that we knew what we
were doing, but you know the idea that you you know,
forget Google maps, forget the map, you know, but like
let's go back, you know, to the to the really
old school. And I think, I mean, I'm I think
(24:06):
I'm older to anyone else, you know in this on
stage here tonight. I'm I'm I remember, you know, having
to learn like long division, which convinced me that I
was bad at math. And you know, I think about now,
I mean, now when I want to know something with math,
I'm just using chat GPT, right, And so you know,
(24:27):
would would I have had a different trajectory? I mean,
I mean, I'm perfectly happy with where I ended up,
but like, would I had a different view of my
capabilities as a learner who thought of myself as being
bad at math?
Speaker 2 (24:38):
You could use these tools exactly.
Speaker 9 (24:41):
I mean that's kind of interesting to think about.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, maybe I would have you know, maybe that the
bad grades that I got in physics and chemistry were
just because I didn't have AI to to use. Toliver,
you have been reading some of the comments coming in
and listen to the middle dot com board people saying.
Speaker 4 (24:56):
Yeah, they're all AI. Shannon and Chicago says, we used
to ask other people. We would speculate with our family
at dinner, would imagine possible answers. We would exercise our minds,
you know. So she's lamenting the loss of that. And
then Lisa and Rittman, Ohio says, what really frustrates me
is that no matter how much I try to limit
screen time at home, school's use of technology is blasting
(25:17):
through those guidelines. And then Marie in Vegas teaches medical
students and she worries about the effect of technology and
AI in the context of kids having been shut ins
during COVID, and I think that's something we could bring
to our guests.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
Yeah, well, and yeah, yeah, I mean, Kayla, when you
talk about this, COVID definitely comes up again and again
because it really did, as Kathleen said at the beginning,
it forced everybody to have to use technology in a
way that they hadn't before, but a lot of the
effects have been lingering and not always in.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
A good way.
Speaker 10 (25:46):
Absolutely, so I am an avid TikTok watcher and a
lot of times I will scroll on there and I
will see I think the last comment there was a
nursing teacher. Sorry if I'm wrong about that, but they
will have a like the r N test on there,
(26:09):
and they're giving the answers to this test as they're
taking it. I don't know how that's legal. I don't
know how that's possible, but that's frightening that sometimes a
big assessment or something they really need to do on
their own, with their own thoughts, and just it's so
accessible that they're just getting through it right. And no,
(26:34):
I'm sure that there are very wonderful people out there
who don't use this, but the fact that it is
out there is a little frightening.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
We've got a student on the line. I'd love to
hear from him. Ian is in Raleigh, North Carolina. Ian,
go ahead, what do you think about what's being lost
in education in the digital age?
Speaker 18 (26:53):
Yeah, So, I'm a let's engineering student, so we are
what we learn about is technology and all that stuff,
and we're expected to use AI and almost everything we do.
We teachers almost assigned stuff expecting you to use AI
with increased difficulty or other stuff, and they you have
(27:14):
to use AI all the time, even if you didn't
want to. AI is such a big part of this
new technology and how computers worked that you're required to
you Then you lose some soft skills like programming. Instead
of debugging your own code or doing stuff like that,
you would just run it through an AI and see, hey,
what's wrong with this, what's messing up? And you stick
(27:36):
it off to that. So you lose soft skills and
you lose the ability to live without AI.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
Do you think that you like, we just heard somebody
say that you lose curiosity. Do you feel like you've
you lose your curiosity because you have to rely on
AI as much as you do.
Speaker 18 (27:53):
I don't think you lose curiosity. I think you'll still
have questions, and I think AI just functions to help you,
and it's that curiosity quicker. So it feels like you're
losing curiosity, you're just losing the time that curiosity takes up,
so it feels like you're using it less, but really
you're just having to look less.
Speaker 3 (28:12):
Yeah, thank you very much for that call in and Kathleen,
you know that brings up another question. I wanted to
ask you about time. And we've heard this a couple
of times. It takes less time to do this thing,
so you're you're moving faster. I've also read that students
are having a harder time, like reading a full book
because of the attention span problems that we all have
(28:35):
because of social media and and just what's happening in
our world right now.
Speaker 9 (28:40):
Yeah, so that didn't start with AI. That started with
the remote. Remember when we all could, you know, suddenly,
you know, skip commercials, and now when you have to
watch a commercial, you're like, oh my gosh, you.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
Know, whoever, whoever could do this right?
Speaker 9 (28:52):
So it we've been conditioned. I mean, now they say,
what gen Z has attention span of seven seconds? I
think that's probably you could probably say that for most
of us, to be honest, right, And so I think
that's you know the way that I deal with that
in my teaching because I see I feel it among
(29:12):
my students, even though I'm teaching a hands on design
sprint kind of a class where they're physically having to
like get it, you know. I make them get up
and move around, work on the whiteboard. And yet still
you know that you can see that, you know, the
sort of the you know, the mind's wandering off, and
you know, people skulking into the corner to retreat in
a hoodie or something, and so, you know, I think
(29:35):
we we have to combat that, but we just have
to recognize that that is, you know, that's the reality
that we're dealing with. And I you know, I don't
blame any particular part of the digital age for that.
Speaker 3 (29:45):
It does feel so nice, though, when you actually get
to take some time and not be distracted by anything
else and just focus on the one thing.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Tolliver.
Speaker 3 (29:53):
There was an unbelievable story earlier this year out of
Connecticut that gets to some of what we're talking about here.
Speaker 4 (29:59):
Yeah, there was a student named Alisha or T. She
graduated from high school with honors, but says she was
functionally illiterate when she got to college. Listen to this
story from WRL.
Speaker 17 (30:10):
Even today, could you read this or would it take
you a long time?
Speaker 8 (30:13):
Is in class of Iya seeing his words everywhere.
Speaker 17 (30:16):
Alicia graduated from the Hartford Public School system last year,
but she says today she is illiterate. She still doesn't
know how to read or write. When she was in
early education.
Speaker 15 (30:27):
They just either tell me to stay in a corner
and slee.
Speaker 8 (30:35):
Or just draw a pictures flowers for them.
Speaker 17 (30:39):
And when she was in high school, she relied on
speech to text programs and other apps to read and
write essays.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Speech to text? Can you believe that I use it
every day?
Speaker 4 (30:48):
I'm using it right now.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
I mean she was resourceful, that's for sure.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
Seriously, we'll be right back with more of your calls
coming up on the Middle.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
This hour, we're talking about what's being lost in education
in the digital age. You can call us at eight
four four four Middle. That's eight four four four six
four three three five three, or you can reach out
at Listen to the Middle dot com. I'm joined by
Kayla Fan, an English teacher at Lorraine High School in Ohio,
and Kathleen Dulaski, the founder of the Education Design Lab.
We've got some more calls coming in, but let me
(31:19):
just read this comment from Jake and Evansville, Indiana, who
worked as a public school teacher about ten years ago
and then transitioned to be a public librarian. He says
the biggest loss in education in the digital age is
how students lose the bigger feeling of being alive with others,
not just interacting and finding community there. That is again
there's no learning of being in community. Many people today,
but especially you don't know how to ask for things,
(31:41):
look things up, even use a library. Kayla, I just wonder,
you know there's somebody who's a librarian now bringing up
the issue of libraries. Some schools, I guess, have been
getting rid of their libraries because of all the technology
that's coming. Do you have a library still in your school?
Speaker 19 (31:55):
We do.
Speaker 10 (31:57):
We call it the Media Center now and it's been
turned into a student I forget how we say this,
but it's basically a hangout for the students and that's
not a bad thing either.
Speaker 8 (32:12):
It's a place for them to go.
Speaker 10 (32:13):
I take my students there when we're reading to do
small group instruction. But our library has definitely been cut
in half.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Very interesting, Kathleen.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
Is there a problem do you think if there's I mean,
like we're lamenting things that you know used to be around,
But is there a problem if schools don't have libraries?
Speaker 2 (32:32):
They just have media centers.
Speaker 9 (32:35):
Yeah, I mean, I think it's a reality that if
they're not going and checking out books. I mean, the
books do a good job of like muffling noise if
you want a quiet place, but they're not, you know,
if they're not serving the purpose that the students start
reading them because they're accessing everything online anyway.
Speaker 19 (32:54):
You know.
Speaker 9 (32:55):
I'm yes, I'm more in the loss of it, but
I'm trying to be practical here.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
Right Finley is calling in from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I Finley,
go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 5 (33:06):
Hello.
Speaker 20 (33:07):
My thoughts are that kids in school are not being
able to read like they used to go too. So
kids can see a word and try and sound it out,
but it won't be right and they won't know what
it means. So like maybe the word judgmental, or like
long words like representative, they'll see that and maybe not
know what that means, not be able to read it
(33:29):
and put together what that word means.
Speaker 2 (33:32):
Are you speaking from experience? Are you? Are you a
student yourself?
Speaker 20 (33:36):
Yes, I'm going to see that in school right now.
I'm in high school senior. And sometimes they'll be put
to read read aloud in school and you know they'll
read slowly and struggle to put through words that are
you know, fairly easy for me to read?
Speaker 2 (33:53):
And are do you do you blame technology for that? Finley?
Speaker 20 (33:56):
I think that yes, technology is to wain because when
kids are texting, they'll shorten words a lot and use
like spellings for you know, the word you, they'll put
y eh you instead of y o you, and you
know it shortening things. Does you know?
Speaker 3 (34:14):
And let me ask you one more thing, since we've
got a high school student on the line, do you
use AI a lot? Do you do you use like
chat GPT to do your work or do you stay
away from that?
Speaker 20 (34:25):
I tried to stay away from it, but I know
a lot of kids in my school. I'll hear the
teacher getting this. I mean, I'll be like, I'm just
gonna put through suit shob GPT or I'm just going
to take a screech out of this and put it
through Google lens. Because one thing in my school is
Wikipedia is not. Wikipedia is blocked, but Google is not.
Because some discorting morning announcements in school are through YouTube.
(34:46):
So they'll play that on YouTube or you'll have to
google question and it'll be on there, but Wikipedia is
block and one thing you can do is take a
screenshot and upload it and Google lens and it will
give you the answer to anything you want. So you
can get a test and it will be locked, but
you can Google lends it, screenshot that and you'll get
the answers to that, and teacher can't do anything about it.
It's Google.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Finley, thank you so much for listening and thank you
for calling. Really appreciate it, Kayla. For our viewers on YouTube,
they can see that you were nodding there along with Finley.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
But what do you think about that?
Speaker 10 (35:19):
So his point about Google lens is just kind of
funny to me because I just remember long ago I
forgot about Google lens. But I remember in math specifically,
I had a co teacher who was a math teacher,
and she was so frustrated because she would give these
students homework. Because I'm not an advocate for homework personally,
(35:40):
but in math class you have to practice that skill
that it's not a skill that you could just work
on in the classroom, you know. But she was so
frustrated because they would just take a picture, put it
on Google lens, and then they would get the right answer.
But in math classes, you still have to show the
work and Google lens doesn't necessarily do that. But I
just remember a coworker with a math teacher. She's very
(36:03):
frustrated with the Google lens.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
I've never used Google lens before, never.
Speaker 8 (36:10):
I actually didn't realize it was still around.
Speaker 2 (36:12):
Well, I guess it must be the kids keep.
Speaker 8 (36:15):
It a secret from us. They're resourceful.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Vanessa is calling from Saint Charles, Virginia. Vanessa, what do
you think about what's being lost in education in the
digital age?
Speaker 21 (36:28):
Hi, the thanks for taking my call. I'm going to
bring it back to COVID again. I know that we
always kind of go back there, but I feel like
this is definitely a relevant thing with gen Z.
Speaker 16 (36:39):
So.
Speaker 21 (36:40):
I was in a veterinary technology program during COVID in
twenty twenty one, and it was a hybrid program.
Speaker 14 (36:48):
So I was.
Speaker 21 (36:49):
Learning online about how to perform like a complete blood
count on a microscope, how to draw blood from veins,
all online versus where if I was in person, I
would be doing that on a microscope and on you know,
a dog or cat. So I was wondering, will AI
have an effect on the hard skills. Will it come
(37:13):
into the like technology uh programs where you're where you're
working with your hands and stuff, and how will that
affect how people are able to succeed in those jobs.
If they're using AI and they're learning online and not
able to learn a more like physical hands on manner,
(37:34):
does that take away from learning hands on?
Speaker 2 (37:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (37:38):
Good questions, Vanessa, Kathleen, did you have an answer for
that question.
Speaker 9 (37:42):
Yeah, this is something that we that we work on
it the Education Design Lab, which is you know, creating
shorter term programs than a full college degree, and often
they are technical programs. And one of the reasons they
need to be shorter is because the technology changes so
quickly often.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
That you need you know, the.
Speaker 9 (38:00):
The veterinarian role might not change, but the technology you're
using does. And so yes, COVID kind of pointed out that, wow,
it's really hard to do this online. But I think
it also taught a lot of the you know, simulation
companies and now AI companies are figuring out how to
do simulation. And some of it's like augmented reality or
(38:23):
virtual reality to you allow you to actually, you know,
pretty well simulate in a way that somebody would still
hire you to do that role. I mean, obviously there's exceptions,
and you'd want to get into a real life situation
when you can. But it's helping to democratize. Actually, some
of these job training programs that you know before didn't
have enough slots for people to go into.
Speaker 3 (38:46):
Let me get to another caller. Joseph is calling from
full Share, Texas. Joseph, go ahead with your thoughts.
Speaker 22 (38:54):
Hi, thank you. Yeah, I've been enjoying the conversation. I'm
going back into teaching after ten years, and I use
AI to you know, to write up menus and things
like that. But what has led to all this wonderful
technology was people, philosophers, thinkers being alone with their thoughts.
(39:15):
And you know what's hindered at what's been hindered is
that time that students get, even away from school to
be alone in their thoughts. I still journal, and it's
it's very rare to just be able to put down
my phone and take my journal with me and a
(39:36):
pen and go somewhere and just be alone and write
ways from scratch. I'm also an author, so I know
the value of that, and I think that is just
something that is being lost. But at the same time,
the benefit of things like AI if students learn to
(39:56):
use it this way. And I've been thinking about this
a lot going back into education, is they need to
learn to have their original thoughts and then you know,
maybe treat AI as a sounding board, right, you know,
how far can they take those thoughts? Yeah, and just
you know that that might be something to do.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Great points, uh kayla on the issue of people having
time to actually think their thoughts and be alone with
their thoughts.
Speaker 2 (40:27):
Do you think about that as a teacher.
Speaker 10 (40:29):
So one of the things that I'm trying to implement
this year is time for the students to do that,
and it's it doesn't usually happen in a classroom. I'm
not gonna I'm gonna be honest there. So, like I
said I mentioned earlier, we're reading this novel and I
have been taking my kids outside and just letting them
(40:49):
read in small groups, letting them read silently, or a
couple of times I've read out loud to them.
Speaker 8 (40:55):
And even though that's you know, not quiet time with.
Speaker 10 (40:59):
Their thoughts, it is quiet time, and I would say
ninety percent percent of them are taking advantage of it.
So I'm going back to the thought of. It's almost
a novelty. They are just constantly on their phones. So
when they're allowed that time and sort of, you know,
we mandated it. We're not allowed to have phones in
schools in Ohio. And so now that they have to
(41:23):
put their phones away, they have to use their brains.
They have to be outside and in the sunshine with
the grass. You know, they're actually really taking advantage of it.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
Yeah, that's interesting. Chris is calling in from Rocky Hill, Connecticut. Chris,
go ahead, Yes, I'm.
Speaker 15 (41:40):
Trying to match you know, what the data is via
SAT scores high school scores to the social trends over
the timeline of ten years. Is there such a thing
that exists.
Speaker 2 (41:56):
Well, I mean it's a good question, Kathleen.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Do we know how SAT scores or the assessment scores
I guess in high schools and things like that have changed.
Speaker 2 (42:05):
They're not doing very well right now. I don't think. Yeah,
I don't.
Speaker 9 (42:08):
I don't know about SAT scores specifically. I mean test
scores generally are you know, are in very bad shape.
US student test scores like in reading in math are
dropping and people are not you know, I mean, there's
all kinds of theories as to why, but certainly they
track with the with the advent of social media, you know,
(42:30):
sort of around twenty twelve is when the numbers started,
you know, showing sign you know, sort of signs of dropping.
So you know, people are making that correlation. I haven't seen.
I can't speak to SAT scores specifically.
Speaker 2 (42:43):
A lot of.
Speaker 9 (42:43):
Schools are becoming SAT optional, so they're becoming you know,
SAT scores are becoming less important in the in the
scheme of you know, college apicay.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Right exactly, especially since covid mark is calling in from
San Antonio, Texas high Mark, what do you think is
being lost in education in the digital age?
Speaker 12 (43:01):
Well, I would like to just comment, I'm something very
interesting that I have found. I'm a technology instructor at
a local library and my wife is a teacher, and
what we have found is that even with all this
input of technology, of everyone having a laptop and things
like that, at the various levels of school, they're not
teaching how to use these devices. I have found many
(43:23):
team teams coming into my programs that they don't know
how to put their fingers on the keyboard in order
to type something. They don't know the difference between a
left click and a right click, and yet they're using
they're supposedly using these every day in school. So I
just was curious from your guests to know if that's
(43:44):
you know, is that a factor, like are they teaching
things like I remember going to typing class, So I
just that's the open question.
Speaker 2 (43:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (43:53):
I don't think we had typing class in my school,
but we definitely had a computer science classman to learn
all these sort of basic things. KYLEA, Do your students,
like know the basics of how to use these?
Speaker 10 (44:02):
No, you know, no, this is this is yeah, Actually
they've been they've had a computer. My student, my tenth
graders have had a computer in their hands for five
or six years whatever, you know, five years since COVID.
Speaker 8 (44:15):
And they still, you know, what is it called, like
hunt and peck.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
For the on the keyboard. They don't know how to
type properly right, And you.
Speaker 10 (44:23):
Know, I'm thirty eight years old. I had a typing
class and it's free out there. I don't know why
we're not utilizing that, especially when it is so common.
Speaker 8 (44:32):
And maybe it also has to do with the fact that.
Speaker 10 (44:34):
They're on their phones, you know, so the phone texting
is quite different than a keyboard, so maybe that has
something to do.
Speaker 3 (44:41):
Or now they can like do the speech to text
and they don't even have to tey anymore. I'm going
to sneak one more call in and it is going
to be Sam, who's calling from Rhode Island. Sam, go
ahead briefly with your thoughts.
Speaker 15 (44:56):
Hi.
Speaker 23 (44:57):
My two points is that PE is removing a lot
of the joy from education and a lot of the
like interactive aspect with your teachers. I remember, like when
I first started high school, our teachers had to make
all of their own curriculums. But now pre COVID, they
(45:18):
all transition to doing ones that were online and it
was all just teaching off of a computer and off
of a book online, and our teachers really interacted and
did less stuff with us, and it really made it
more miserable.
Speaker 3 (45:31):
Are you you said when you first started high school?
Are you still in high school now?
Speaker 19 (45:35):
No?
Speaker 23 (45:35):
I'm in college. I graduated in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 22 (45:39):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (45:39):
And in college, are you finding that you know you're
using technology too much, not enough or just right?
Speaker 23 (45:47):
I think college is just right. I think specifically high
school is where everything was going wrong.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (45:53):
Sam, thank you very much. And Kathleen, I'll just give
you the last word. I mean, we've heard a lot
of this like loss of joy, of community, that kind
of thing. Is that the takeaway here?
Speaker 9 (46:04):
I think I think that we're in the eye of
the cyclone right this minute, like we don't know where
it's going to land, and so I don't think we
should pass judgment. And I feel I do for bad
for this couple of years of students because they're really
totally the guinea pigs while we're trying to figure it out. Right,
we're inventing this as we go along with them. So
I think when we come out on the other side
(46:25):
of this in like two years, that we're going to
have best practices and you know, the caller when if
you were in high school at that point, would feel
a lot better about the joy.
Speaker 3 (46:37):
We're going to come out on the other side of
this in two years. Kathleen Delaski, you made news there.
I want to thank my guests, Kathleen Delaski, the founder
of the Education Design Lab, author of the book Who
Needs College Anymore? And Kayla Fan and English teacher at
Lorraine High School in Ohio.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Thanks so much. To both of you for a great conversation.
Speaker 8 (46:53):
Absolutely, thank you for having us.
Speaker 3 (46:55):
Thank you, And before we go today, I want to
take a moment to remember one of the very first
guests that we had on this show when it started
as a weekly broadcast almost two years ago. That was
former Illinois Governor Jim Edgar, who passed away earlier this
week after a battle with cancer. He was seventy nine.
Edgar was a Republican who knew how to work across
the isle. He had a good working relationship with the
(47:17):
Democratic mayor of Chicago at the time, Richard Daily. He
talked with us about the importance of bipartisanship and treating people,
even your political opponents, with civility.
Speaker 19 (47:28):
You know politicians. Everybody said, oh they worried about is
getting reelected. Well, you want to get reelected, but you
want to do something while you're there. If you don't,
you've made a big mistake. Because that's not a great profession.
If you don't want to get something done, the money's
not that good and the hours are lousy, and people
are mad at you all the time. So to get
something done, especially for a Republican in Illinois, you have
(47:50):
to reach across the aisle.
Speaker 2 (47:52):
You have to work with Democrats.
Speaker 19 (47:54):
Illinois is a very diverse state and there are all
kinds of points of view, and you've got to respect
those points to you and work with him.
Speaker 2 (48:01):
You know, not always you're going to agree.
Speaker 19 (48:03):
But I do think if you treat people with civility
and you get to know him personally, you can get
a lot more done. I wanted to get things done, yeah,
And I have to say, you set aside the political affiliation.
There isn't all that much difference. A lot of very
conservative Republicans and very liberal Democrats have a lot of
(48:23):
common interest in things, so you try to build off that.
You try to find out where you agree before you
get involved in the things you disagree on.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
A poignant message, especially right now.
Speaker 3 (48:36):
We're going to be doing a special podcast in the
next few days about the legacy of Jim Edgar. To
subscribe to the Middle wherever you get your podcast, and
next week we'll be right back here talking about the
spirit of American creativity and asking you, whether you are
an artist or a musician or an entrepreneur, why do
you create.
Speaker 4 (48:55):
Our number is eight four four four Middle. That's eight
four four four six four three three five three, or
you can read out it listen to the Middle dot com,
where you can also sign up for our free weekly
newsletter and send us your ideas for future show topics.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yes, please do.
Speaker 3 (49:08):
The Middle is brought to you by LONGNOK Media, distributed
by Illinois Public Media in Urbana, Illinois, and produced by
Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander, Sam Burmustas, John barth, Ana Kadeshler,
and Brandon Condritz.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Our technical director is Steve Mork.
Speaker 3 (49:20):
Thanks to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and
the hundreds of public radio stations that are making it
possible for people across the country to listen to the Middle,
I'm Jeremy Hobson. I will talk to you next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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