January 31, 2025 • 50 mins
On this episode of The Middle we're asking you your questions on all things related to the Middle East. Jeremy is joined by the former President of Iraq, Barham Salih. The Middle's house DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus callers from around the country. #middleeast #iraq #israel #gaza #hamas #iran
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Funding for the Middle comes from the Tyler Dickman Foundation,
currently matching donations to the Middle dollar for dollar. All
contributions are doubled for a limited time at listen to
Themiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver.
I feel like I'm saying this every week now, but
there is so much happening. I almost almost thought about
starting a second Middle each week to get to it.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
You shit, man, I'm so down. That sounds good to me.
I listen, man, I can't handle all the news.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
I'm going full Ostrich this year, Okay, in this end,
coming up for barbecues.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
That's it, all right, Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Well, I think what you have to do in a
moment like this is not get overwhelmed. Just focus on
one thing at a time. And that's what we're gonna do.
And our one thing this week is the Middle East.
For decades now, the US role in and relationship with
countries in the Middle East has dominated our foreign policy.
US soldiers have fought wars in the region, and the
conflict between Israelis and Palestinians clearly had a meaningful effect
(01:03):
on our election here in this.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Country in November.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
So this hour we're going to be taking your questions
about what's happening across the Middle East and what it
means for the United States and the world.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
With a very special guest.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
We have the former president of Iraq, barham Sala, who
was president from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty two with us.
You can call in and ask your questions at eight
four four Middle that's eight four four four six four
three three five three, and we'll get to.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Your questions in just a moment.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
But first, last week we asked you about your thoughts
on Trump's deportation policy that's now underway. A lot of
voicemails came in from people who didn't make it on
the air during the show.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Here are some of them.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
My name's Merrilie david Sen. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah.
These illegal people are really here to work really hard. Yes,
there are criminals, and I agree that they should be
taken out of here. I don't think anyone should be
above the laws. But I'd like to point out that
we have a person in the presidency who has been
(02:04):
convicted by a jury of his peers for thirty four felonies.
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 6 (02:09):
Hi, my name is Lenn I'm in Elmgrove, Wisconsin. Immigrants
illegal and otherwise pay sales taxes, income taxes, FICA taxes,
property taxes, and they work. We need these people for
the growth and strength of our economy and our retirement systems.
Speaker 7 (02:24):
Hi, my name is haiaf from Ohif. When it comes
to immigration, it's not that we can't make a huge
difference in it, it's just that their rhetoric grabs people
up emotionally instead of being practical and handling the problem
in a beneficial way for everybody.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
You can hear that entire episode on our podcast in
partnership with iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever
you listen to podcasts. So now to our topic this hour,
the Middle East. What questions do you have about what's
happening in Israel, Gaza, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey,
et cetera. Tolliver, can you give us the number again please?
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, it's eight four four four Middle that's eight four
four four six four three through five three or you
can write to us at Listen to the Middle dot
com and you can also comment on our live stream
on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and Twitch.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Joining us for the hour is the former President of Iraq,
Barham Salad, Mister President, Welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
To the Middle.
Speaker 8 (03:19):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Jeremy, it's great to have you.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And before we get to the phones, just so that
people know you are from Kurdistan in the northern part
of Iraq, which is a semi autonomous region, but you
were also the president of all of Iraq. There are
many Americans, maybe some listening who served in Iraq or
had family members who did.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
How would you describe the country now?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Is democracy working in Iraq?
Speaker 8 (03:43):
Well, person, fomos is great to be with you and
to those who have served in Iraq and those who
have had connection direct connections or the transition in Iraq
from two thousand and three and on what I want
to say, thank you for the help that was rendered
to the people of Iraq to get rid of the
(04:04):
dictatorship of Sada Mussein. I know this issue has been
most contentious in this country and many people in this
country have been debating and discussing whether it was the
right decision or not. But let me tell you from
our perspective in Iraq, and when I say our perspective,
(04:25):
certainly the majority of Iraqis were grateful to see the
dictatorship of Saddam Hussein removed two tires. Two thousand and
three could not have happened without the intervention of the
United States and the commitment of this country, as well
as the many people who have really come and served
(04:48):
there and past, so many who have paid with their
lives in order to accomplish that mission, not to talk
about also the effort of the United States to help
us defeat terrorism in the period after that. Having said that,
(05:10):
I would say that Iraq is today not the spectacular
success that we all hoped for, and that Iraq is
deserved and our friends in the United States and the
coalition partners have worked for. But it is also not
the terrible disaster that some people want to depict us.
It's a mix back and just a point to be
(05:33):
putting things in context. Since two thousand and three, we
have had six governments changed through at least a quasi
democratic process elections adhering to basic constitutional standards, and this
is in the heart of the Islamic Middle East, which
usually people governments changed by brute force, by those by
(05:58):
violence and so on.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Let me ask you about that, because you did something
that was very unusual in the Middle East, which is
you actually peacefully transferred power to your successor.
Speaker 8 (06:06):
I will live the law of the land. That is
the law of the land, that's a constitution, and I
did not end up in the gallows as well. With
the gallows, I mean this is also for me to
be able to speak to you like this, even though
as president I used to be a critic of our system.
I spoke my man when I was president because the system.
Again I be in this context of this conversation with you.
(06:28):
Probably I will point to some of the positive, many
of the positive things that have happened in Iraq since
two thousand and three, but I do not lose sight
of the many setbacks that Iraqis have suffered and the
disappointments that Iraqis feel about the process. When I was president,
I used to focus on the negatives and trying to
improve on what we need to do. But this is
(06:50):
a messy process transitions in a country that has been
ruled by dictatorship forever, living in that tough neighborhood where
we have neighbors each with a stake in what was
going on in our country. That transition has not been easier.
I have to say a lot of unnecessary mistakes have
also been made. I will let Americans to evaluate the
(07:12):
mistakes of the coalitions in terms of the transition, but
certainly from our perspective in Iraq, Iraqi political leaders and
I would not myself have committed many mistakes and we
have learning from that, and this is an ongoing process.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Well, speaking of transitions, we've had a big one in
this country. President Trump has come in to office. He's
made a lot of changes already. One was a pause
on all foreign aid except for Israel and Egypt. He's
also suggested that Jordan and Egypt take in the Palestinians.
He's saying he wants to quote clean out Gaza. What
are your first impressions of the Trump presidency.
Speaker 8 (07:48):
And foremost, I would say this is a decision of
the American people. They have gone into an elections, they
have elected a new leader, and a new administration has
come into place. This is again I do not want
to get involved in domestic American politics, but one thing
I would say we have to take this administration very
seriously and some of the announcements that were made and
(08:11):
commitments that were made during the campaign is being delivered
upon and we have to deal with it certainly. On
the issue of suspension of foreign assistance, I have been
speaking to some friends both on the hell as well
as in the administration. This is subject to review case
(08:31):
by case or country by country, and we hope because
there are so many important programs that are taking place,
these will should be dealt with. In the case of Iraq,
there are many programs that are important, one of which
is assistant to educational establishments like the American University of
Iraq in Suleimany and other American universities that have rended
(08:53):
in important service because of this decision. This has been
suspended as part of the sues, but I'm sure we
are being reassured that these will be reviewed and case
by case basis will be dealtate. We hope that it
will end up being the right decision.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Let me squeeze in a call before we have to
take a quick break. Joe is calling from Overland Park, Kansas. Joe,
your question for the former president.
Speaker 9 (09:19):
Of Iraq Yeah. First of all, this is a great
honor to speak to President, so you and I greatly
appreciate the opportunity to ask this question. Considering the Israel
Palestine conflict, the thing that concerns me most is that
both sides consider this land to be given to them
(09:45):
by God. The Hamas Charter says that it is a
gift from God. I can't say the right word. And
the Israeli certainly believe they belong there for thousands of years.
How do you ever resolve the conflict? We're both sides
(10:07):
think they have God on their side. I don't understand
how you can ever get out of that.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
That's a great question, Joe.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Let me let me take that to the to the president.
Mister Salah, what do you think?
Speaker 8 (10:19):
It's a it's a it's a very profound question. As President,
I had the honor of receiving His Holiness the Pope
to Bagdad, the first ever visit by a pope to Mesopotomia.
He came to Bagdad and in my remarks to him
(10:42):
welcoming him, I asserted that we are all God's children,
and if we were talking about the three major religions,
we are all as children of Abraham. Abraham has started
in Iraq, in Ur, where the Pope went and had
(11:03):
a sermon there and had a service there. Really, I
don't think God, if we were to go back to
the basic fundamentals of religious values, God does not want
his children to be fighting the way we are fighting now.
God has not created us to take one another. At
the end of the day, the children of Abraham have
(11:25):
to come together and have to live in peace and
have to end the cycle of violence and chamoil that
has been set up part of the world forever and
set not should not be in the name of God.
That God should be seeking asking us to live in
peace and then with dignity.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
There was a big question for us to ask you
before the break, but to stand by Toliver. The most
significant American involvement in the Middle East in the past
twenty five years was, of course, the Iraq War, which
followed the.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Nine to eleven attacks, and that George W.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Bush administration claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Which turned out not to be true.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Here's former President Bush announcing the start of the conflict
back in two thousand and three.
Speaker 10 (12:06):
My fellow citizens, at this hour, American and Coalition forces
are in the early stages of military operations to DISARMO Iraq,
to free its people, and to defend the world from
grave danger. On my orders, Coalition forces have begun striking
selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability
(12:28):
to wage war. These are opening stages of what will
be a broad and concerted campaign.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
That war lasted eight years, almost forty five hundred American
service members killed, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. And
we'll be right back with more of the Middle. This
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
in the Middle is a national call in show. We
are focused on elevating voices from the Middle geographically, politically,
(12:55):
and philosophically. Or maybe you just want to meet in
the Middle. This hour, we're taking your questions about the
Middle East with former President of Iraq, barham Sala, who
is now a senior fellow at the Belfer Institute at
Harvard University, Tulliver. What is the number to call in?
Speaker 4 (13:10):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
You can also write to us. I listened to the
middle dot com or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
And before we go back to the phones, mister President,
there are tens of millions of migrants who are fleeing
countries in the Middle East. From Syria, Iraq, Egypt, obviously
the Palestinian territories. They have gone to places in the region.
They've also gone to countries in Europe and to.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
The United States.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Do you expect many of them to ever return to
their home countries if conditions are safe.
Speaker 8 (13:42):
I was an immigrant. I left Iraq in nineteen seventy
nine to the United Kingdom after finishing education because of
Saddam Hussein's s diectator Shiva. I became a political refugion,
then became a citizen. My kids were born there. Of course,
(14:03):
my situation mayn't be unique. I went back later on,
and many many other immigrants in Europe I know for sure,
have really made a decision to come back to both
the Kurdish region, at least in the timeframe of two
thousand and seven to two thousand and twelve and thirteen,
(14:24):
when the situation stabilized in Iraq, when the economic situations
were beginning to boom. Today, I hear many Arab Iraqis
are returning back to southern Iraq because the economic conditions
are a lot better. Immigration is a long, long standing
problem across the world, in Europe, it's a problem nowadays
(14:46):
in the United States. And I would say the following again.
I understand the strong debate, the real debate that he's
going on in every society about the scale of this
problem and the impact that it has on these societies,
But there is one fundamental factor that we need to remember.
Nobody likes to leave their homes to go to a
(15:08):
different countries. Nowhere is like home. So when we had
the conflict in Syria for so many years and essentially
that dynamics was left around, a lot of Citians left
their country as refugees. Now I hear, despite many uncertainties
about Syria, which we am sure we're going to be
(15:29):
talking about, many people are returning, whether from Turkey even
from Europe, are returning back to Saya, trying to go
back to their homes and rebuild their lives and so on.
So one aspect of this immigration challenged that all these
Western societies are faced with at least has to be
(15:49):
helping these countries that are the source of the immigration
to basically sort out their problems, both whether it is economic,
whether it is security and dictatorships and political because without
dealing with the source problem, you will continue to be
challenged with these issues that you're talking about today.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Well, let's talk about Syria for a minute, because while
we're talking about it anyway, Bashar al Assad was just
ousted after a decade long civil war in Syria. What
do you think of the new government in Syria? Do
you have hope for that country being a member of
the nations of the world.
Speaker 8 (16:28):
Jeremy, let me be very direct about this. Number One,
Bashad Asset gone is good news for the world. The
guy was a dictator, was used chemical weapons on his
old people, use chemical weapons on his people, as Saddam did.
By the way in it walks Saddama I was saying
he was also a bathhist of a different type. But
these dictatorial regimes to the dustbin of history is a great,
(16:52):
great movement. It's a great opportunity for the city and people.
The group that has come into Damascus to take over
Damascus after Asset has to be disconcerting for the syny
and people first and foremost, but also for the neighbors. Remember,
many of these have been part of the al Qaedo organization,
(17:14):
part of the Isis organization. And I want to believe
what the leader of Sydia today, mister Shaa, is saying.
I want to desperately want him to be true to
all his statements and announcements, and we should help him
by the way the world should help him. The neighborhood
should help him deliver on these commitments. But we have
(17:35):
to be very very careful. We have to be very vigilant,
and that requires checks and balances, that requires paths on
the ground. To this end, I would say Syria is
not a monolith. It's not just these Islamists who have
come into Damascus. You have Kurts, you have Christians, you
have drus, you have Alloyhites, even together with so many
(17:58):
civil middle of the road Syrians who want to live
in at please quasi democratic civil state. So it's important
to help these elements are Syrian society to be part
of this transition, to reclaim their country and to making
sure that we are not putting our aspirations and hopes.
(18:19):
In just words, we need facts on ground. Syria and
the region cannot afford the resurgence of another terrorist movement
as we have seen with ISIS that has terrorized Syrians,
terrorized Iraqis, terrorize Zdis Christians, and terrorize the world.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
A lot of people want to ask some questions to you.
Let's go to Riswan, who is in Houston, Texas. Riswan,
welcome to the Middle Go ahead with your question.
Speaker 11 (18:45):
Yes, thank you so much, President sala for this great opportunity.
My question was, how do you see now the situation
between the different ethnic and religious groups in Iraq, speaking
of the Sunni and Shia, the Kurts Christian is there,
How is the relationship between these groups? Is there more
(19:07):
divisiveness than before in the times of Saddam and especially
given that Syria is now facing such a situation with
all its mixed ethnic groups. I just wanted your opinions
on that.
Speaker 12 (19:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 8 (19:21):
Thank you're as one. Thank you as one. And I
think from your name you probably have connections to our
part of the world. So what I will be telling
you probably not so new to you. But let me
put it this way. Our part of the world is
a diverse community and we have truly so many identities.
(19:41):
It was dictatorship and ethnic nationalism and politicization of religions
that we have divided Kurds, Arabs, she As, Sunny's, Muslims, Christians,
Jews co existed together in peace and harmony forever. We
have had problems. And you know, so every region of
(20:01):
the world, every corner of the world, including probably in Texas,
you may have certain tensions and that I'm not trying
to simplify these things. But what happened in a country
like Iraq with the brutal dictatorship that we have witnessed,
certainly since nineteen fifty eight when the military took over,
and definitely when Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship using chemical weapons,
(20:25):
committing genocide against the curse, discriminating against a Shia as
discriminating against other communities in the country, that has totally
destroyed the country two thousand and three. Things have not
been easy since because we Iraq has been also subjected
to this horrible onslaught of these jihadi terrorists that has
(20:45):
been exploding cars, bonds, killing scores of people day in
and day out based on identity, and the politicization of
religion has not been helpful to bring in the country together.
There is still tension in Iraq among the communities, definitely.
So there is definitely a lot of political troubles between
(21:06):
the Kurdish parties and the bag that based other parties
you name it, on issues of resources, on issues of revenues, security,
all of these things. But it is a continuing worker
progress in Syria, as the bad dictatorship of a basharal
Asset have kept this under wrapped for a long long time.
(21:28):
But these divisions were already there because they were discrimination
against the Curse, they were discrimination against Sunny's, against other
communities in Syria. Now with this regime gun, these various
communities are coming to the fore and are asking to
be partners in their own country. Will they be able
to do it easily? Absolutely not, because I mean d
(21:53):
be talking about a new dynamics. As we have discovered
in Iraq. We all on the eve of liberation of Iraq.
We hope that we will all agree on a concept
of a democratic, peaceful Iraq and that we will live
happily ever after. But life is a bit more complicated
than that, and there's a lot of legacy of history, culture,
political gimmicking in foreign intervention that makes life difficult but
(22:19):
at the end of the day, we the people of
that region, we have no other option but to work
in together for the fundamental things jobs for our kids,
schools for our kids, better quality health service. By the way,
the things that you care about in Texas are exactly
the things that my constituents in Solomonia and my constituents
in my compatriots in Basra or Pamishlu or Damascus would
(22:44):
want as well.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Except for American football probably, but let's let's go to
another question.
Speaker 8 (22:49):
We like soccer. By the way, American football more fascinating
for people.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Ryan is calling from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, with a question. Ryan,
welcome to the Middle and go ahead.
Speaker 13 (23:03):
I thank you for taking my call this evening. I
have a question regarding your thoughts of if we might
have to start considering a newer, twenty first century model
of Middle East peace and sustainability, because for the last century,
conflict in the Middle East has been based on religion
and land and identity. But now we have climate change
(23:25):
coming in and UNICEF and the World Bank and the
UN they've all warned that as the you know, the
Middle East is going to be the primary region of
the world that is going to be most affected by,
you know, droughts, lessening of access to fresh water. And
(23:45):
I can't help but think that this could bring about
an entire new wave of instability in the region as
people aren't able to grow crops. They can't they can't
even access water. And do we now have to incorporate
that there could be conflicts breaking out because people can't
even get the most basic things. Do we need sort
(24:06):
of a twenty first century Middle East peace plan that
takes that challenge?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah? Great, we got it right, Go ahead.
Speaker 8 (24:14):
This is a very important and revealing question, and Jeremy,
you'll have to allow me to dwell on it, because
this thing is the we can be stuck in the
past or we need to look at how we can
solve our challenges of the day and move forward. Climate
(24:35):
change and environmental challenges are really so central to the
Middle East. And let me tell you about Mesopotamia, the
land of the two rivers, where the Garden of Eden
was according to mythologies all religions was an Iraq. That
was where the tigers and river and Euphrates have come together.
(24:59):
This is where all the mythology is focused on. Now
is turning into desertland, desertification, salination of waters that are
coming to the downstream of the rivers are really really
(25:19):
profound in terms of impacting the quality of life of people.
I remember in two thousand and three Iraq was twenty
eight million people. Today is forty five million people. By
twenty to fifty we will be eighty million people. And
we simply cannot go on. I'm just talking about Iraq,
and we can talk about the entire neighborhood. We simply
(25:40):
cannot go on with the present dynamics feeding our people
because agricultural lands are being eroded because of desertification, growth
of population, pollution are all impacting US. Water supply cannot
suffice the way we are using our water, and so on.
This applies to Syria, applies to Iran. Perhaps Turkey may
(26:02):
not have that problem in that sense of the word,
but Turkey may have other environmental challenges that it will
have to deal with. So this challenge, whether we like
it or not, whether we like our neighbors or not,
whether we will like the other community next door or not,
compel us to work together and bring our people together.
I have looked at some numbers during my time in
(26:25):
office as well as nowadays at the university that base
and levants with Turkey and the Gulf and Iran as well.
By twenty thirty or so, or twenty thirty, yeah, it
could be home to nearly five hundred million people.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
That's unbelilable.
Speaker 8 (26:47):
Sorry, by twenty to fifty, let me be I mean
my figures need to be accurate. Here will be nearly
five hundred million people. And these people, this growing population,
will need schools, will need jobs for the kid as
they grow into this thing. And it will be a
primarily young population. And unless we have a sustained and
(27:12):
a smart policy of dealing with these challenges and managing
our environmental issues and especially the conflict of the water,
because this is today it's a big issue between Syria
and Turkey, between Iraq and Iran, between Iraq and Turkey,
this is already a matter of major contention in terms
(27:32):
of interstate relations. There's no way Iraq or Syria for
that matter, Turkey and Iran and the Gulf could come together,
come and solve these economic issues unless they integrate economically
the entire neighborhood. And there are many actually projects that
(27:53):
are going on in terms of infrastructure connecting the region
to create bigger markets because we need each other. Without
it cannot happen. And yes, these countries, all of us
across the region, we have problems with each other. We
have issues of contentions and disputes, but at the same time,
we all need jobs for the young population that is
(28:16):
coming on the market and the scale of art economies
today cannot do it without economic integration across the region.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, let me squeeze one more call in here before
a quick break. Greg is in Chicago. Greg, quickly go
ahead for the president.
Speaker 14 (28:31):
Thank you for taking my call.
Speaker 13 (28:33):
My question is in regards to the notion.
Speaker 14 (28:36):
Of Zionism among many right wing Israelis and how does
how do Arab nations handle this attitude that the Holy
Land needs to be reclaimed and what are the implications
for nations and borders in the future as the US
(28:59):
appears to be supporting Zionism in Israel and in that region.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Thank you, Greg, Yeah, go ahead, President Zala.
Speaker 8 (29:09):
You are asking a question to occur. Who has been
victimized by history and by colonial powers? Who and was
de unied a country when they drew these borders, So
your question is relevant. I think the most important thing.
If we think about the future, we really need to
understand coexistence is absolutely vital within the region as a whole,
(29:32):
and that requires accepting our diversity, That requires accepting each other,
and that also requires also renouncing violence and renouncing force
as a means of settling our issues together. And because
this region cannot go on like this forever. By the way,
if you look at Europe, for example, the scale of
(29:55):
violence throughout European history is seventeenth century, eighteenth century even
to an tieth century was painful than that of Eastern World.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
I have to I have to pause you right there,
President Salah, because we do have to hit a short break.
But Tolliver, we did hear that clip earlier of George W.
Bush announcing the start of the Iraq War that came
about a decade after the first war.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
In the region.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
That's right, here's former President George H. W. Bush speaking
to the American public about the start of the Persian
Gulf War.
Speaker 15 (30:27):
Our objectives are clear. Sadam Hussein's forces will leave Kuwait,
the legitimate government of Kuwait will be restored to its
rightful place, and Kuwait will once again be free. Iraq
will eventually comply with all relevant United Nations resolutions, and
(30:49):
then when peace is restored, it is our hope that
Iraq will live as a peaceful and cooperative member of
the Family of Nations.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
You know Tulliver, Every time I hear him talk about
the Iraq War, all I can think of is that
scene in The Big Lebowski where he's like, this aggression
will not stand. And then I just think of Lebowski,
like this aggression will not stand.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Man, I think of The Simpsons, Honestlykinson's parody.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Well, anyway back with more of the Middle in a moment.
This is the Middle.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I'm Jeremy Hobson, and we're talking about the Middle East
with a very special guest, the former President of Iraq,
Barham Sala. You can call us at eight four four
four Middle that's eight four four four six four three
three five three, or you can reach out and listen
to the Middle dot com. H And let's get right
back to the phones because there are a number of
callers waiting. I yell, it is with us from Westminster, Colorado.
(31:41):
Welcome to the Middle, and go ahead with the former president.
Speaker 7 (31:45):
Thank you, it's nice to meet you, Former President. My
name in Arabic is Razalah. Both my parents were born
in Iraq and Eliahud I'm Jewish, and in nineteen fifty
and nineteen fifty one, about one hundred and fifty thousand
(32:10):
Jews left Iraq to move to Israel, and by doing so,
they needed to leave behind their citizenship, to give up
being an Iraqi citizen, and also their entire property, homes, jewelry, everything.
And my grandmother, who passed away unfortunately, dreamt about her house,
(32:32):
the house that she had many stories about it. And
I wonder if ever the Jews will be allowed to
have back their citizenship, the Jews that were born in Iraq,
both my parents, or even diplomatic relationship with Israel so
we can visit our roots. We were in Iraq for
(32:56):
thousands of years.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Hiela, thank you very much for that question.
Speaker 8 (33:02):
Azariah, I come from Kurdistan and my parents and my
grandparents used to tell me a lot about the Jewish
neighbors and delight that they had together. They were very
much part of the culture, the society, and even in
(33:26):
fact that a lot of the Baghdadi families were talking
about their experience and the legacy and the heritage of
the Jewish neighbors and the community leaders. I'm remembering with
the start of the Iraqi state, a notable Jewish gentleman
(33:49):
was the first Minister of Finance in the country at
the time, quite well known. So there is a lot
of history, a lot of history to Jewish life in
Rock and my hope and the hope of so many,
that there will be peace in our parts of the world,
and that these tenrible things that have happened will be
(34:15):
will be dealt with with justice and with with decency
for all.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Let's go to Adam, who is in Naples, Florida. Adam,
welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 12 (34:29):
Hey there, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
How are you too doing great? Go ahead with your
question for the president A good.
Speaker 12 (34:35):
Thing, Yeah, thank you for your excellencies presence. My question
is predicated on Palestinians statehood. Obviously, statehood must happen for
this drawn out issue to come to an acceptable conclusion
and for the dignity of Palaestindians to be able to
be realized. My question, based on your experience, is a
(34:58):
two state solution even possible at this point given the array,
given the presence of settlements, and if it's not possible.
What does a one state solution look like in terms
of the realistic acceptance of the connects it to allow
this new population new quote unquote with regard to having
(35:18):
full and equal voter prints, I don't really see a
two state solution being possible, given that it'll be difficult
to evacuate settlements to connect the Gaza Strip to the
West Bank and also to provide enough water territory for
trade and then air territory.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Good question, Adam, let's take that to the President.
Speaker 8 (35:42):
Well, he ungeniably. There is a lot of debate about
this nowadays, and this is a central issue and a
crucial issue that has to be dealt with. Palestinians deserve dignity,
deserve a place that they can call their state. How
(36:03):
to achieve that will have to be through peaceful conversations
and renunciation of the kind of violence that we have
seen in recent years that have only meant more destruction
and more and more suffering for all. As a matter
of fact, that this issue has to be resolved. The
exact modality of this has to be worked out by
(36:26):
the parties and has to be based on a viable
solution that will see to the dignity and security of
all in the region.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Let me ask you about Turkey, which I was there
back in two thousand and three at the start of
the war working with NPR's war correspondent there. It's a
country that is ninety nine percent Muslim, but it's also
a country that is part of NATO. It feels very
Western in many ways. But just this week President Eruwan
welcome the leaders of Hamas into the presidential complex. How
(36:58):
do you see Turkey's role in what's happening in the
Middle East?
Speaker 8 (37:03):
Again, Turkey, it's handing ably a very important geopolitical actor
and major power in that part of the world. It's
my neighbor in Iraq as well as has occurred, I
have a direct interest in Turkish policies on all of
these issues. I have to say I have serious, serious
(37:25):
issues with Hamas. Hamas who have I've seen supporting Saddam
Hussein's dictatorships, supporting some of these ugly elements inside Iraq
trying to, you know, destabilize our situation through terrorism and violence.
So for me, I have issues, uh serious, serious issues
(37:49):
with Hamas, and I think at the end of the day,
Turkey is an important player certainly after what happened in
Syria as well, one has to see to what the
Turks are doing. I would hope that Turkey, being a
member of NATO, and also the relations it has with
(38:12):
the West and the important projection of power that it
has across our part of the world, will be seeking
better relations with the neighbors. And certainly in the case
of the Kurdish issue, which is central and important issue
to Turkey. I'm a bit more hopeful than before because
there is talk about a peace process with the Curds
(38:33):
of Turkey VISI the acknowledgment of language and ethnic identity
and so on. I hope this will be as the
public speculations that are being talked about stated would lead
to something tangible and end this conflict that has been
going on in Turkey for so long.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
As well, Tolliver, I know some comments are coming in online.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
Yeah, they're flying in right now. Mister President, you mentioned
and the changes in climate change and the problems that
presents for future generations, while also mentioning a doubling of
population in the next ten or twenty years or so.
Is there anything being said in the public space about
the responsibility of population control I don't know if I
want to take that real quick.
Speaker 8 (39:15):
Actually, this is again a huge debate going on in
our societies because it is also there are elements about tradition,
elements about religiosity, you name it. But we need I mean,
I am of the school of thought that our population
is growing a lot faster than our countries can sustain it,
(39:38):
and our economy is consustain it, and we really need
to educate people and we need to go for But
I cannot tell you that it is easy because at
one hand, while the economy is expanding, while the revenues
and the GDP per capita is improving, you see a
lot of people going for larger size families. But it's
a challenge. It's a challenge. Many countries in the neighborhood
(40:02):
are having that problem. And the burden on the infrastructure
burden in terms of the projected requirement that we will
have are going to be huge, are going to be huge.
As I told you, we are talking about half a
billion people in that basin alone, with Egypt and Song included.
(40:24):
That is a staggering number. And what will require of
us to develop our economies and develop our job markets
will be huge.
Speaker 4 (40:34):
Jeremy, I want to sneak one more because I think
it's a great question. Vaughn in Fort Worth, Texas says,
many of US Americans strongly believe against violence against against civilians,
no matter who is committing that violence or who is
suffering it. In this time of extreme tribalism, and with
our administration, what can American individuals do.
Speaker 8 (40:50):
To help well United States? Let me tavy this thing.
I mean, I'm a student of history, and probably many
in the Middle East would like to have a lot
easier life than what we have. And I know many
in the United States have had enough of being involved
in foreign crises and so on. But remember, the United
(41:14):
States is an indispensable nation to the rest of the world,
and our security and your security are very much intertwined.
Your citizens' involvement in being supportive to promoting these values
of tolerance, peace, coexistence will be absolutely important, working with
(41:36):
your members of Congress, working with your elected officials to
making sure that these basic values of peace, dignity, human
rights are really supported. At the end of the day,
we live together on the same planet, and as I said,
our security and yours are very much intertwined. We will
(41:59):
need continued engagement and the support of the United States,
so many things that this part of the world will
continue to Canadian leadership on.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Let's go to Brandt, who's in Salt Lake City, Utah. Brandt,
welcome to the middle and go ahead with your question.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Hi.
Speaker 16 (42:15):
Yeah, so my question, and first of all, thank you
for taking the call and the time today, mister President.
But my question is related to the fall of the
Syrian government and what that means for an independent Kurdistan
and Rojava. As many people know, there's been a big
independent Kurdish movement for decades and it does span not
only Syrian territory, but Turkish Iraqi and I believe some others.
(42:39):
But what does that follow the Assad government mean, What
does HTS's control of Syria now mean for the ethnic
Kurds there, and what do you see as a solution
to the question of an independent Kurdish state.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Thank you, brand and I'll just note to the president.
As you can see, our listeners are very smart.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Okay, go ahead of course, of course.
Speaker 8 (42:59):
Now this is unbelievable and amazing. Thank you well. Rojava.
I was speaking to the leader of the Rajava governing entity,
General Muslim ad This afternoon. As a matter of fact,
one has to remember the Curves in Syria have been
in the forefront of the fight against ISIS. They have
been a bulwark against extremism, and what they have done
(43:22):
has been remarkable over so many years. And this was
done in large large measure because of the partnership with
the United States and the forces American forces that have
been stationed in Syria for some years now, not large numbers,
but they were quite quite instrumentally in enabling them and
helping them push back against the extremists. And this is
(43:45):
what I said in terms of my response about STC
and others, that the Kurds of Syria and other communities
are key part has to have to be key parts
of transition in Syria, and without that, I think my
fear is that we will have the country hijacked by
extremists who could become a problem not only for the
Sylan people, but the problem for the rest of the region.
(44:08):
There is one fundamental fact when the Middle East lines
were defined in the aftermath of the First World War,
the Curves were denied the homeland and this problem has
been a persistent problem afflicting stability and democratization of that
part of the world. We have been victims of genocide,
(44:32):
with deportations, displacement, and you name it. The Curves have
been the most profound victim of the international order that
the Europeans built in the aftermath of the First World War.
But the Curves have been resilient, have stayed in their land.
And there can be no stable Middle East without acknowledging
(44:57):
the rights of the Kurdish people. And the more depression,
the more adam and the Curves are about their identity
and their place. I think some of these dictatorships in
our part of the world are pushing the Curves to
having no option but to have their own separate homeland
(45:17):
one way or the other, sooner or later. My hope
is that the Curves in the region will be able
to integrate within their own societies, recognize their own identities,
and their own self government based on a confederal arrangement,
based on a federal arrangement the way that we have
(45:38):
in Iraq with some developments, but the Curts are key
corners for regional stability and there can be no future
for the Middle East without acknowledgment of Courtish rights.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Okay, we are running.
Speaker 8 (45:51):
Thirds are about at least a minimum of forty million
people in that neighborhood struggling countries.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
I have two questions for you before we go, though.
One of them is President Biden. A former President Biden
now on his way out the door, said that he
thought that Iran.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Was in the weakest position it has been in decades.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 8 (46:12):
I think Iran has undoubtedly suffered a huge setback, both
in Sitia and in Lebanon, and also the economic artchips
that the Iranian economy is experiencing. But Iran is a
major geopolitical actor in our neighborhood. Well, undoubtedly still be
a factor, and I hope that the neighborhood can come
(46:35):
together and really solve some of these problems based again
on international law, renouncing terrorism, renouncing intervention in the affairs
of others, and act as normal states. Idiots. Enough of
the mess. Enough of this mess. Has been so many years,
so many decades, in which so many innocent lives had
(46:56):
been just wasted for futile wars. Enough of this.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Do you see Saudi Arabia right now as a good
force in the region. They've obviously got a close relations.
Speaker 8 (47:09):
In Saudi Arabia Jeremy about a month ago, and I
have not been in Rial for about probably six years,
and I was amazed at what I saw in terms
of the economic regeneration, about the openness of the society.
Remember the way so many decades in which the people
(47:31):
of the region and for that much of the world
as well, have come to identify Saudi Arabia with the
most orthodox, most conservative, even support for some of these
Salafi and Jihadi movements that were coming from different parts
of so on. For Saudi Arabia to normalize its society
and to move towards this modernization and economic regeneration and
(47:56):
social openness is really a really very important statement, and
we all have a stake in the success of Saudia Aba.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
I would say, okay, I just have about ten seconds here,
but if you had a chance to talk to President
Trump about how he should approach the Middle East right now,
what would be your one line that you would tell him.
Speaker 8 (48:19):
America is an indispensable nation to the stability and the
security of the Middle East. It won't go away if
you'll be engaged. We need to partner with the good
forces in the region to making sure the region is
different from its past and the opportunity is here now.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
Well.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Thank you so much, former President of Iraq, barham Sala
for joining us on the Middle. It's been such a
treat to have you on the show.
Speaker 8 (48:45):
Thank you, Jeremy, you most kind. Thank you for your listeners.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Thank you Ed.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Next week, we're taking on another important topic, as California
starts to rebuild after the wildfires.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Are you prepared for the next natural disaster.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
We'll be joined by CNN Chief Climate Course fun At,
Bill Weir, and Kim Cobb, who's the director of Brown
University's Institute for Environment and Society.
Speaker 4 (49:06):
As always, you can call in at eight four four
four Middle, that's eight four four four six four three
three five three, or you can reach out to listen
to The Middle dot com. You can also sign up
for our free weekly newsletter, and don't forget to check
out our new video podcast on YouTube where you can
watch us as well as hear us and we look.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
And sometimes you can you can see Tolliver how we
look when when callers.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Get a little crazy. You can see that on the YouTube.
You can't hear it.
Speaker 8 (49:28):
On the radios.
Speaker 11 (49:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, The Middle is brought to you by Long Noook
Media distributed by Illinois Public Media and Urbana Illinois and
produced by Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander Samburmas, Does, John barth On, Akadeshler,
and Brandon Condritz.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Our technical director is Jason Kroft.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Thanks to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and
the more than four hundred and twenty public radio stations
that are making it possible for people across the country
to listen to the middle and talk to world leaders.
I'm Jeremy Hobson and I'll talk to you next week.
Speaker 16 (50:04):
Names
Funding for the Middle comes from the Tyler Dickman Foundation,
currently matching donations to the Middle dollar for dollar. All
contributions are doubled for a limited time at listen to
Themiddle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Welcome to the Middle.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our house DJ Tolliver and Tolliver.
I feel like I'm saying this every week now, but
there is so much happening. I almost almost thought about
starting a second Middle each week to get to it.
Speaker 3 (00:29):
You shit, man, I'm so down. That sounds good to me.
I listen, man, I can't handle all the news.
Speaker 4 (00:34):
I'm going full Ostrich this year, Okay, in this end,
coming up for barbecues.
Speaker 2 (00:39):
That's it, all right, Okay.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
Well, I think what you have to do in a
moment like this is not get overwhelmed. Just focus on
one thing at a time. And that's what we're gonna do.
And our one thing this week is the Middle East.
For decades now, the US role in and relationship with
countries in the Middle East has dominated our foreign policy.
US soldiers have fought wars in the region, and the
conflict between Israelis and Palestinians clearly had a meaningful effect
(01:03):
on our election here in this.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Country in November.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
So this hour we're going to be taking your questions
about what's happening across the Middle East and what it
means for the United States and the world.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
With a very special guest.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
We have the former president of Iraq, barham Sala, who
was president from twenty eighteen to twenty twenty two with us.
You can call in and ask your questions at eight
four four Middle that's eight four four four six four
three three five three, and we'll get to.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Your questions in just a moment.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
But first, last week we asked you about your thoughts
on Trump's deportation policy that's now underway. A lot of
voicemails came in from people who didn't make it on
the air during the show.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Here are some of them.
Speaker 5 (01:41):
My name's Merrilie david Sen. I live in Salt Lake City, Utah.
These illegal people are really here to work really hard. Yes,
there are criminals, and I agree that they should be
taken out of here. I don't think anyone should be
above the laws. But I'd like to point out that
we have a person in the presidency who has been
(02:04):
convicted by a jury of his peers for thirty four felonies.
That's ridiculous.
Speaker 6 (02:09):
Hi, my name is Lenn I'm in Elmgrove, Wisconsin. Immigrants
illegal and otherwise pay sales taxes, income taxes, FICA taxes,
property taxes, and they work. We need these people for
the growth and strength of our economy and our retirement systems.
Speaker 7 (02:24):
Hi, my name is haiaf from Ohif. When it comes
to immigration, it's not that we can't make a huge
difference in it, it's just that their rhetoric grabs people
up emotionally instead of being practical and handling the problem
in a beneficial way for everybody.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Well, thanks to everyone who called in.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
You can hear that entire episode on our podcast in
partnership with iHeart Podcasts, on the iHeart app or wherever
you listen to podcasts. So now to our topic this hour,
the Middle East. What questions do you have about what's
happening in Israel, Gaza, Syria, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Turkey,
et cetera. Tolliver, can you give us the number again please?
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, it's eight four four four Middle that's eight four
four four six four three through five three or you
can write to us at Listen to the Middle dot
com and you can also comment on our live stream
on YouTube, TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and Twitch.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
Joining us for the hour is the former President of Iraq,
Barham Salad, Mister President, Welcome.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
To the Middle.
Speaker 8 (03:19):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Jeremy, it's great to have you.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
And before we get to the phones, just so that
people know you are from Kurdistan in the northern part
of Iraq, which is a semi autonomous region, but you
were also the president of all of Iraq. There are
many Americans, maybe some listening who served in Iraq or
had family members who did.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
How would you describe the country now?
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Is democracy working in Iraq?
Speaker 8 (03:43):
Well, person, fomos is great to be with you and
to those who have served in Iraq and those who
have had connection direct connections or the transition in Iraq
from two thousand and three and on what I want
to say, thank you for the help that was rendered
to the people of Iraq to get rid of the
(04:04):
dictatorship of Sada Mussein. I know this issue has been
most contentious in this country and many people in this
country have been debating and discussing whether it was the
right decision or not. But let me tell you from
our perspective in Iraq, and when I say our perspective,
(04:25):
certainly the majority of Iraqis were grateful to see the
dictatorship of Saddam Hussein removed two tires. Two thousand and
three could not have happened without the intervention of the
United States and the commitment of this country, as well
as the many people who have really come and served
(04:48):
there and past, so many who have paid with their
lives in order to accomplish that mission, not to talk
about also the effort of the United States to help
us defeat terrorism in the period after that. Having said that,
(05:10):
I would say that Iraq is today not the spectacular
success that we all hoped for, and that Iraq is
deserved and our friends in the United States and the
coalition partners have worked for. But it is also not
the terrible disaster that some people want to depict us.
It's a mix back and just a point to be
(05:33):
putting things in context. Since two thousand and three, we
have had six governments changed through at least a quasi
democratic process elections adhering to basic constitutional standards, and this
is in the heart of the Islamic Middle East, which
usually people governments changed by brute force, by those by
(05:58):
violence and so on.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Let me ask you about that, because you did something
that was very unusual in the Middle East, which is
you actually peacefully transferred power to your successor.
Speaker 8 (06:06):
I will live the law of the land. That is
the law of the land, that's a constitution, and I
did not end up in the gallows as well. With
the gallows, I mean this is also for me to
be able to speak to you like this, even though
as president I used to be a critic of our system.
I spoke my man when I was president because the system.
Again I be in this context of this conversation with you.
(06:28):
Probably I will point to some of the positive, many
of the positive things that have happened in Iraq since
two thousand and three, but I do not lose sight
of the many setbacks that Iraqis have suffered and the
disappointments that Iraqis feel about the process. When I was president,
I used to focus on the negatives and trying to
improve on what we need to do. But this is
(06:50):
a messy process transitions in a country that has been
ruled by dictatorship forever, living in that tough neighborhood where
we have neighbors each with a stake in what was
going on in our country. That transition has not been easier.
I have to say a lot of unnecessary mistakes have
also been made. I will let Americans to evaluate the
(07:12):
mistakes of the coalitions in terms of the transition, but
certainly from our perspective in Iraq, Iraqi political leaders and
I would not myself have committed many mistakes and we
have learning from that, and this is an ongoing process.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Well, speaking of transitions, we've had a big one in
this country. President Trump has come in to office. He's
made a lot of changes already. One was a pause
on all foreign aid except for Israel and Egypt. He's
also suggested that Jordan and Egypt take in the Palestinians.
He's saying he wants to quote clean out Gaza. What
are your first impressions of the Trump presidency.
Speaker 8 (07:48):
And foremost, I would say this is a decision of
the American people. They have gone into an elections, they
have elected a new leader, and a new administration has
come into place. This is again I do not want
to get involved in domestic American politics, but one thing
I would say we have to take this administration very
seriously and some of the announcements that were made and
(08:11):
commitments that were made during the campaign is being delivered
upon and we have to deal with it certainly. On
the issue of suspension of foreign assistance, I have been
speaking to some friends both on the hell as well
as in the administration. This is subject to review case
(08:31):
by case or country by country, and we hope because
there are so many important programs that are taking place,
these will should be dealt with. In the case of Iraq,
there are many programs that are important, one of which
is assistant to educational establishments like the American University of
Iraq in Suleimany and other American universities that have rended
(08:53):
in important service because of this decision. This has been
suspended as part of the sues, but I'm sure we
are being reassured that these will be reviewed and case
by case basis will be dealtate. We hope that it
will end up being the right decision.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Let me squeeze in a call before we have to
take a quick break. Joe is calling from Overland Park, Kansas. Joe,
your question for the former president.
Speaker 9 (09:19):
Of Iraq Yeah. First of all, this is a great
honor to speak to President, so you and I greatly
appreciate the opportunity to ask this question. Considering the Israel
Palestine conflict, the thing that concerns me most is that
both sides consider this land to be given to them
(09:45):
by God. The Hamas Charter says that it is a
gift from God. I can't say the right word. And
the Israeli certainly believe they belong there for thousands of years.
How do you ever resolve the conflict? We're both sides
(10:07):
think they have God on their side. I don't understand
how you can ever get out of that.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
That's a great question, Joe.
Speaker 1 (10:15):
Let me let me take that to the to the president.
Mister Salah, what do you think?
Speaker 8 (10:19):
It's a it's a it's a very profound question. As President,
I had the honor of receiving His Holiness the Pope
to Bagdad, the first ever visit by a pope to Mesopotomia.
He came to Bagdad and in my remarks to him
(10:42):
welcoming him, I asserted that we are all God's children,
and if we were talking about the three major religions,
we are all as children of Abraham. Abraham has started
in Iraq, in Ur, where the Pope went and had
(11:03):
a sermon there and had a service there. Really, I
don't think God, if we were to go back to
the basic fundamentals of religious values, God does not want
his children to be fighting the way we are fighting now.
God has not created us to take one another. At
the end of the day, the children of Abraham have
(11:25):
to come together and have to live in peace and
have to end the cycle of violence and chamoil that
has been set up part of the world forever and
set not should not be in the name of God.
That God should be seeking asking us to live in
peace and then with dignity.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
There was a big question for us to ask you
before the break, but to stand by Toliver. The most
significant American involvement in the Middle East in the past
twenty five years was, of course, the Iraq War, which
followed the.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
Nine to eleven attacks, and that George W.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Bush administration claimed that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Which turned out not to be true.
Speaker 4 (12:01):
Here's former President Bush announcing the start of the conflict
back in two thousand and three.
Speaker 10 (12:06):
My fellow citizens, at this hour, American and Coalition forces
are in the early stages of military operations to DISARMO Iraq,
to free its people, and to defend the world from
grave danger. On my orders, Coalition forces have begun striking
selected targets of military importance to undermine Saddam Hussein's ability
(12:28):
to wage war. These are opening stages of what will
be a broad and concerted campaign.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
That war lasted eight years, almost forty five hundred American
service members killed, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. And
we'll be right back with more of the Middle. This
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning,
in the Middle is a national call in show. We
are focused on elevating voices from the Middle geographically, politically,
(12:55):
and philosophically. Or maybe you just want to meet in
the Middle. This hour, we're taking your questions about the
Middle East with former President of Iraq, barham Sala, who
is now a senior fellow at the Belfer Institute at
Harvard University, Tulliver. What is the number to call in?
Speaker 4 (13:10):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three.
Speaker 3 (13:15):
You can also write to us. I listened to the
middle dot com or on social media.
Speaker 1 (13:18):
And before we go back to the phones, mister President,
there are tens of millions of migrants who are fleeing
countries in the Middle East. From Syria, Iraq, Egypt, obviously
the Palestinian territories. They have gone to places in the region.
They've also gone to countries in Europe and to.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
The United States.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Do you expect many of them to ever return to
their home countries if conditions are safe.
Speaker 8 (13:42):
I was an immigrant. I left Iraq in nineteen seventy
nine to the United Kingdom after finishing education because of
Saddam Hussein's s diectator Shiva. I became a political refugion,
then became a citizen. My kids were born there. Of course,
(14:03):
my situation mayn't be unique. I went back later on,
and many many other immigrants in Europe I know for sure,
have really made a decision to come back to both
the Kurdish region, at least in the timeframe of two
thousand and seven to two thousand and twelve and thirteen,
(14:24):
when the situation stabilized in Iraq, when the economic situations
were beginning to boom. Today, I hear many Arab Iraqis
are returning back to southern Iraq because the economic conditions
are a lot better. Immigration is a long, long standing
problem across the world, in Europe, it's a problem nowadays
(14:46):
in the United States. And I would say the following again.
I understand the strong debate, the real debate that he's
going on in every society about the scale of this
problem and the impact that it has on these societies,
But there is one fundamental factor that we need to remember.
Nobody likes to leave their homes to go to a
(15:08):
different countries. Nowhere is like home. So when we had
the conflict in Syria for so many years and essentially
that dynamics was left around, a lot of Citians left
their country as refugees. Now I hear, despite many uncertainties
about Syria, which we am sure we're going to be
(15:29):
talking about, many people are returning, whether from Turkey even
from Europe, are returning back to Saya, trying to go
back to their homes and rebuild their lives and so on.
So one aspect of this immigration challenged that all these
Western societies are faced with at least has to be
(15:49):
helping these countries that are the source of the immigration
to basically sort out their problems, both whether it is economic,
whether it is security and dictatorships and political because without
dealing with the source problem, you will continue to be
challenged with these issues that you're talking about today.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Well, let's talk about Syria for a minute, because while
we're talking about it anyway, Bashar al Assad was just
ousted after a decade long civil war in Syria. What
do you think of the new government in Syria? Do
you have hope for that country being a member of
the nations of the world.
Speaker 8 (16:28):
Jeremy, let me be very direct about this. Number One,
Bashad Asset gone is good news for the world. The
guy was a dictator, was used chemical weapons on his
old people, use chemical weapons on his people, as Saddam did.
By the way in it walks Saddama I was saying
he was also a bathhist of a different type. But
these dictatorial regimes to the dustbin of history is a great,
(16:52):
great movement. It's a great opportunity for the city and people.
The group that has come into Damascus to take over
Damascus after Asset has to be disconcerting for the syny
and people first and foremost, but also for the neighbors. Remember,
many of these have been part of the al Qaedo organization,
(17:14):
part of the Isis organization. And I want to believe
what the leader of Sydia today, mister Shaa, is saying.
I want to desperately want him to be true to
all his statements and announcements, and we should help him
by the way the world should help him. The neighborhood
should help him deliver on these commitments. But we have
(17:35):
to be very very careful. We have to be very vigilant,
and that requires checks and balances, that requires paths on
the ground. To this end, I would say Syria is
not a monolith. It's not just these Islamists who have
come into Damascus. You have Kurts, you have Christians, you
have drus, you have Alloyhites, even together with so many
(17:58):
civil middle of the road Syrians who want to live
in at please quasi democratic civil state. So it's important
to help these elements are Syrian society to be part
of this transition, to reclaim their country and to making
sure that we are not putting our aspirations and hopes.
(18:19):
In just words, we need facts on ground. Syria and
the region cannot afford the resurgence of another terrorist movement
as we have seen with ISIS that has terrorized Syrians,
terrorized Iraqis, terrorize Zdis Christians, and terrorize the world.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
A lot of people want to ask some questions to you.
Let's go to Riswan, who is in Houston, Texas. Riswan,
welcome to the Middle Go ahead with your question.
Speaker 11 (18:45):
Yes, thank you so much, President sala for this great opportunity.
My question was, how do you see now the situation
between the different ethnic and religious groups in Iraq, speaking
of the Sunni and Shia, the Kurts Christian is there,
How is the relationship between these groups? Is there more
(19:07):
divisiveness than before in the times of Saddam and especially
given that Syria is now facing such a situation with
all its mixed ethnic groups. I just wanted your opinions
on that.
Speaker 12 (19:20):
Thank you.
Speaker 8 (19:21):
Thank you're as one. Thank you as one. And I
think from your name you probably have connections to our
part of the world. So what I will be telling
you probably not so new to you. But let me
put it this way. Our part of the world is
a diverse community and we have truly so many identities.
(19:41):
It was dictatorship and ethnic nationalism and politicization of religions
that we have divided Kurds, Arabs, she As, Sunny's, Muslims, Christians,
Jews co existed together in peace and harmony forever. We
have had problems. And you know, so every region of
(20:01):
the world, every corner of the world, including probably in Texas,
you may have certain tensions and that I'm not trying
to simplify these things. But what happened in a country
like Iraq with the brutal dictatorship that we have witnessed,
certainly since nineteen fifty eight when the military took over,
and definitely when Saddam Hussein's brutal dictatorship using chemical weapons,
(20:25):
committing genocide against the curse, discriminating against a Shia as
discriminating against other communities in the country, that has totally
destroyed the country two thousand and three. Things have not
been easy since because we Iraq has been also subjected
to this horrible onslaught of these jihadi terrorists that has
(20:45):
been exploding cars, bonds, killing scores of people day in
and day out based on identity, and the politicization of
religion has not been helpful to bring in the country together.
There is still tension in Iraq among the communities, definitely.
So there is definitely a lot of political troubles between
(21:06):
the Kurdish parties and the bag that based other parties
you name it, on issues of resources, on issues of revenues, security,
all of these things. But it is a continuing worker
progress in Syria, as the bad dictatorship of a basharal
Asset have kept this under wrapped for a long long time.
(21:28):
But these divisions were already there because they were discrimination
against the Curse, they were discrimination against Sunny's, against other
communities in Syria. Now with this regime gun, these various
communities are coming to the fore and are asking to
be partners in their own country. Will they be able
to do it easily? Absolutely not, because I mean d
(21:53):
be talking about a new dynamics. As we have discovered
in Iraq. We all on the eve of liberation of Iraq.
We hope that we will all agree on a concept
of a democratic, peaceful Iraq and that we will live
happily ever after. But life is a bit more complicated
than that, and there's a lot of legacy of history, culture,
political gimmicking in foreign intervention that makes life difficult but
(22:19):
at the end of the day, we the people of
that region, we have no other option but to work
in together for the fundamental things jobs for our kids,
schools for our kids, better quality health service. By the way,
the things that you care about in Texas are exactly
the things that my constituents in Solomonia and my constituents
in my compatriots in Basra or Pamishlu or Damascus would
(22:44):
want as well.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Except for American football probably, but let's let's go to
another question.
Speaker 8 (22:49):
We like soccer. By the way, American football more fascinating
for people.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Ryan is calling from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, with a question. Ryan,
welcome to the Middle and go ahead.
Speaker 13 (23:03):
I thank you for taking my call this evening. I
have a question regarding your thoughts of if we might
have to start considering a newer, twenty first century model
of Middle East peace and sustainability, because for the last century,
conflict in the Middle East has been based on religion
and land and identity. But now we have climate change
(23:25):
coming in and UNICEF and the World Bank and the
UN they've all warned that as the you know, the
Middle East is going to be the primary region of
the world that is going to be most affected by,
you know, droughts, lessening of access to fresh water. And
(23:45):
I can't help but think that this could bring about
an entire new wave of instability in the region as
people aren't able to grow crops. They can't they can't
even access water. And do we now have to incorporate
that there could be conflicts breaking out because people can't
even get the most basic things. Do we need sort
(24:06):
of a twenty first century Middle East peace plan that
takes that challenge?
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah? Great, we got it right, Go ahead.
Speaker 8 (24:14):
This is a very important and revealing question, and Jeremy,
you'll have to allow me to dwell on it, because
this thing is the we can be stuck in the
past or we need to look at how we can
solve our challenges of the day and move forward. Climate
(24:35):
change and environmental challenges are really so central to the
Middle East. And let me tell you about Mesopotamia, the
land of the two rivers, where the Garden of Eden
was according to mythologies all religions was an Iraq. That
was where the tigers and river and Euphrates have come together.
(24:59):
This is where all the mythology is focused on. Now
is turning into desertland, desertification, salination of waters that are
coming to the downstream of the rivers are really really
(25:19):
profound in terms of impacting the quality of life of people.
I remember in two thousand and three Iraq was twenty
eight million people. Today is forty five million people. By
twenty to fifty we will be eighty million people. And
we simply cannot go on. I'm just talking about Iraq,
and we can talk about the entire neighborhood. We simply
(25:40):
cannot go on with the present dynamics feeding our people
because agricultural lands are being eroded because of desertification, growth
of population, pollution are all impacting US. Water supply cannot
suffice the way we are using our water, and so on.
This applies to Syria, applies to Iran. Perhaps Turkey may
(26:02):
not have that problem in that sense of the word,
but Turkey may have other environmental challenges that it will
have to deal with. So this challenge, whether we like
it or not, whether we like our neighbors or not,
whether we will like the other community next door or not,
compel us to work together and bring our people together.
I have looked at some numbers during my time in
(26:25):
office as well as nowadays at the university that base
and levants with Turkey and the Gulf and Iran as well.
By twenty thirty or so, or twenty thirty, yeah, it
could be home to nearly five hundred million people.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
That's unbelilable.
Speaker 8 (26:47):
Sorry, by twenty to fifty, let me be I mean
my figures need to be accurate. Here will be nearly
five hundred million people. And these people, this growing population,
will need schools, will need jobs for the kid as
they grow into this thing. And it will be a
primarily young population. And unless we have a sustained and
(27:12):
a smart policy of dealing with these challenges and managing
our environmental issues and especially the conflict of the water,
because this is today it's a big issue between Syria
and Turkey, between Iraq and Iran, between Iraq and Turkey,
this is already a matter of major contention in terms
(27:32):
of interstate relations. There's no way Iraq or Syria for
that matter, Turkey and Iran and the Gulf could come together,
come and solve these economic issues unless they integrate economically
the entire neighborhood. And there are many actually projects that
(27:53):
are going on in terms of infrastructure connecting the region
to create bigger markets because we need each other. Without
it cannot happen. And yes, these countries, all of us
across the region, we have problems with each other. We
have issues of contentions and disputes, but at the same time,
we all need jobs for the young population that is
(28:16):
coming on the market and the scale of art economies
today cannot do it without economic integration across the region.
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Yeah, let me squeeze one more call in here before
a quick break. Greg is in Chicago. Greg, quickly go
ahead for the president.
Speaker 14 (28:31):
Thank you for taking my call.
Speaker 13 (28:33):
My question is in regards to the notion.
Speaker 14 (28:36):
Of Zionism among many right wing Israelis and how does
how do Arab nations handle this attitude that the Holy
Land needs to be reclaimed and what are the implications
for nations and borders in the future as the US
(28:59):
appears to be supporting Zionism in Israel and in that region.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
Thank you, Greg, Yeah, go ahead, President Zala.
Speaker 8 (29:09):
You are asking a question to occur. Who has been
victimized by history and by colonial powers? Who and was
de unied a country when they drew these borders, So
your question is relevant. I think the most important thing.
If we think about the future, we really need to
understand coexistence is absolutely vital within the region as a whole,
(29:32):
and that requires accepting our diversity, That requires accepting each other,
and that also requires also renouncing violence and renouncing force
as a means of settling our issues together. And because
this region cannot go on like this forever. By the way,
if you look at Europe, for example, the scale of
(29:55):
violence throughout European history is seventeenth century, eighteenth century even
to an tieth century was painful than that of Eastern World.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
I have to I have to pause you right there,
President Salah, because we do have to hit a short break.
But Tolliver, we did hear that clip earlier of George W.
Bush announcing the start of the Iraq War that came
about a decade after the first war.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
In the region.
Speaker 4 (30:19):
That's right, here's former President George H. W. Bush speaking
to the American public about the start of the Persian
Gulf War.
Speaker 15 (30:27):
Our objectives are clear. Sadam Hussein's forces will leave Kuwait,
the legitimate government of Kuwait will be restored to its
rightful place, and Kuwait will once again be free. Iraq
will eventually comply with all relevant United Nations resolutions, and
(30:49):
then when peace is restored, it is our hope that
Iraq will live as a peaceful and cooperative member of
the Family of Nations.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
You know Tulliver, Every time I hear him talk about
the Iraq War, all I can think of is that
scene in The Big Lebowski where he's like, this aggression
will not stand. And then I just think of Lebowski,
like this aggression will not stand.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
Man, I think of The Simpsons, Honestlykinson's parody.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
Well, anyway back with more of the Middle in a moment.
This is the Middle.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
I'm Jeremy Hobson, and we're talking about the Middle East
with a very special guest, the former President of Iraq,
Barham Sala. You can call us at eight four four
four Middle that's eight four four four six four three
three five three, or you can reach out and listen
to the Middle dot com. H And let's get right
back to the phones because there are a number of
callers waiting. I yell, it is with us from Westminster, Colorado.
(31:41):
Welcome to the Middle, and go ahead with the former president.
Speaker 7 (31:45):
Thank you, it's nice to meet you, Former President. My
name in Arabic is Razalah. Both my parents were born
in Iraq and Eliahud I'm Jewish, and in nineteen fifty
and nineteen fifty one, about one hundred and fifty thousand
(32:10):
Jews left Iraq to move to Israel, and by doing so,
they needed to leave behind their citizenship, to give up
being an Iraqi citizen, and also their entire property, homes, jewelry, everything.
And my grandmother, who passed away unfortunately, dreamt about her house,
(32:32):
the house that she had many stories about it. And
I wonder if ever the Jews will be allowed to
have back their citizenship, the Jews that were born in Iraq,
both my parents, or even diplomatic relationship with Israel so
we can visit our roots. We were in Iraq for
(32:56):
thousands of years.
Speaker 2 (32:58):
Hiela, thank you very much for that question.
Speaker 8 (33:02):
Azariah, I come from Kurdistan and my parents and my
grandparents used to tell me a lot about the Jewish
neighbors and delight that they had together. They were very
much part of the culture, the society, and even in
(33:26):
fact that a lot of the Baghdadi families were talking
about their experience and the legacy and the heritage of
the Jewish neighbors and the community leaders. I'm remembering with
the start of the Iraqi state, a notable Jewish gentleman
(33:49):
was the first Minister of Finance in the country at
the time, quite well known. So there is a lot
of history, a lot of history to Jewish life in
Rock and my hope and the hope of so many,
that there will be peace in our parts of the world,
and that these tenrible things that have happened will be
(34:15):
will be dealt with with justice and with with decency
for all.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
Let's go to Adam, who is in Naples, Florida. Adam,
welcome to the middle Go ahead.
Speaker 12 (34:29):
Hey there, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
How are you too doing great? Go ahead with your
question for the president A good.
Speaker 12 (34:35):
Thing, Yeah, thank you for your excellencies presence. My question
is predicated on Palestinians statehood. Obviously, statehood must happen for
this drawn out issue to come to an acceptable conclusion
and for the dignity of Palaestindians to be able to
be realized. My question, based on your experience, is a
(34:58):
two state solution even possible at this point given the array,
given the presence of settlements, and if it's not possible.
What does a one state solution look like in terms
of the realistic acceptance of the connects it to allow
this new population new quote unquote with regard to having
(35:18):
full and equal voter prints, I don't really see a
two state solution being possible, given that it'll be difficult
to evacuate settlements to connect the Gaza Strip to the
West Bank and also to provide enough water territory for
trade and then air territory.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Good question, Adam, let's take that to the President.
Speaker 8 (35:42):
Well, he ungeniably. There is a lot of debate about
this nowadays, and this is a central issue and a
crucial issue that has to be dealt with. Palestinians deserve dignity,
deserve a place that they can call their state. How
(36:03):
to achieve that will have to be through peaceful conversations
and renunciation of the kind of violence that we have
seen in recent years that have only meant more destruction
and more and more suffering for all. As a matter
of fact, that this issue has to be resolved. The
exact modality of this has to be worked out by
(36:26):
the parties and has to be based on a viable
solution that will see to the dignity and security of
all in the region.
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Let me ask you about Turkey, which I was there
back in two thousand and three at the start of
the war working with NPR's war correspondent there. It's a
country that is ninety nine percent Muslim, but it's also
a country that is part of NATO. It feels very
Western in many ways. But just this week President Eruwan
welcome the leaders of Hamas into the presidential complex. How
(36:58):
do you see Turkey's role in what's happening in the
Middle East?
Speaker 8 (37:03):
Again, Turkey, it's handing ably a very important geopolitical actor
and major power in that part of the world. It's
my neighbor in Iraq as well as has occurred, I
have a direct interest in Turkish policies on all of
these issues. I have to say I have serious, serious
(37:25):
issues with Hamas. Hamas who have I've seen supporting Saddam
Hussein's dictatorships, supporting some of these ugly elements inside Iraq
trying to, you know, destabilize our situation through terrorism and violence.
So for me, I have issues, uh serious, serious issues
(37:49):
with Hamas, and I think at the end of the day,
Turkey is an important player certainly after what happened in
Syria as well, one has to see to what the
Turks are doing. I would hope that Turkey, being a
member of NATO, and also the relations it has with
(38:12):
the West and the important projection of power that it
has across our part of the world, will be seeking
better relations with the neighbors. And certainly in the case
of the Kurdish issue, which is central and important issue
to Turkey. I'm a bit more hopeful than before because
there is talk about a peace process with the Curds
(38:33):
of Turkey VISI the acknowledgment of language and ethnic identity
and so on. I hope this will be as the
public speculations that are being talked about stated would lead
to something tangible and end this conflict that has been
going on in Turkey for so long.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
As well, Tolliver, I know some comments are coming in online.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
Yeah, they're flying in right now. Mister President, you mentioned
and the changes in climate change and the problems that
presents for future generations, while also mentioning a doubling of
population in the next ten or twenty years or so.
Is there anything being said in the public space about
the responsibility of population control I don't know if I
want to take that real quick.
Speaker 8 (39:15):
Actually, this is again a huge debate going on in
our societies because it is also there are elements about tradition,
elements about religiosity, you name it. But we need I mean,
I am of the school of thought that our population
is growing a lot faster than our countries can sustain it,
(39:38):
and our economy is consustain it, and we really need
to educate people and we need to go for But
I cannot tell you that it is easy because at
one hand, while the economy is expanding, while the revenues
and the GDP per capita is improving, you see a
lot of people going for larger size families. But it's
a challenge. It's a challenge. Many countries in the neighborhood
(40:02):
are having that problem. And the burden on the infrastructure
burden in terms of the projected requirement that we will
have are going to be huge, are going to be huge.
As I told you, we are talking about half a
billion people in that basin alone, with Egypt and Song included.
(40:24):
That is a staggering number. And what will require of
us to develop our economies and develop our job markets
will be huge.
Speaker 4 (40:34):
Jeremy, I want to sneak one more because I think
it's a great question. Vaughn in Fort Worth, Texas says,
many of US Americans strongly believe against violence against against civilians,
no matter who is committing that violence or who is
suffering it. In this time of extreme tribalism, and with
our administration, what can American individuals do.
Speaker 8 (40:50):
To help well United States? Let me tavy this thing.
I mean, I'm a student of history, and probably many
in the Middle East would like to have a lot
easier life than what we have. And I know many
in the United States have had enough of being involved
in foreign crises and so on. But remember, the United
(41:14):
States is an indispensable nation to the rest of the world,
and our security and your security are very much intertwined.
Your citizens' involvement in being supportive to promoting these values
of tolerance, peace, coexistence will be absolutely important, working with
(41:36):
your members of Congress, working with your elected officials to
making sure that these basic values of peace, dignity, human
rights are really supported. At the end of the day,
we live together on the same planet, and as I said,
our security and yours are very much intertwined. We will
(41:59):
need continued engagement and the support of the United States,
so many things that this part of the world will
continue to Canadian leadership on.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Let's go to Brandt, who's in Salt Lake City, Utah. Brandt,
welcome to the middle and go ahead with your question.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
Hi.
Speaker 16 (42:15):
Yeah, so my question, and first of all, thank you
for taking the call and the time today, mister President.
But my question is related to the fall of the
Syrian government and what that means for an independent Kurdistan
and Rojava. As many people know, there's been a big
independent Kurdish movement for decades and it does span not
only Syrian territory, but Turkish Iraqi and I believe some others.
(42:39):
But what does that follow the Assad government mean, What
does HTS's control of Syria now mean for the ethnic
Kurds there, and what do you see as a solution
to the question of an independent Kurdish state.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Thank you, brand and I'll just note to the president.
As you can see, our listeners are very smart.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Okay, go ahead of course, of course.
Speaker 8 (42:59):
Now this is unbelievable and amazing. Thank you well. Rojava.
I was speaking to the leader of the Rajava governing entity,
General Muslim ad This afternoon. As a matter of fact,
one has to remember the Curves in Syria have been
in the forefront of the fight against ISIS. They have
been a bulwark against extremism, and what they have done
(43:22):
has been remarkable over so many years. And this was
done in large large measure because of the partnership with
the United States and the forces American forces that have
been stationed in Syria for some years now, not large numbers,
but they were quite quite instrumentally in enabling them and
helping them push back against the extremists. And this is
(43:45):
what I said in terms of my response about STC
and others, that the Kurds of Syria and other communities
are key part has to have to be key parts
of transition in Syria, and without that, I think my
fear is that we will have the country hijacked by
extremists who could become a problem not only for the
Sylan people, but the problem for the rest of the region.
(44:08):
There is one fundamental fact when the Middle East lines
were defined in the aftermath of the First World War,
the Curves were denied the homeland and this problem has
been a persistent problem afflicting stability and democratization of that
part of the world. We have been victims of genocide,
(44:32):
with deportations, displacement, and you name it. The Curves have
been the most profound victim of the international order that
the Europeans built in the aftermath of the First World War.
But the Curves have been resilient, have stayed in their land.
And there can be no stable Middle East without acknowledging
(44:57):
the rights of the Kurdish people. And the more depression,
the more adam and the Curves are about their identity
and their place. I think some of these dictatorships in
our part of the world are pushing the Curves to
having no option but to have their own separate homeland
(45:17):
one way or the other, sooner or later. My hope
is that the Curves in the region will be able
to integrate within their own societies, recognize their own identities,
and their own self government based on a confederal arrangement,
based on a federal arrangement the way that we have
(45:38):
in Iraq with some developments, but the Curts are key
corners for regional stability and there can be no future
for the Middle East without acknowledgment of Courtish rights.
Speaker 2 (45:49):
Okay, we are running.
Speaker 8 (45:51):
Thirds are about at least a minimum of forty million
people in that neighborhood struggling countries.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
I have two questions for you before we go, though.
One of them is President Biden. A former President Biden
now on his way out the door, said that he
thought that Iran.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
Was in the weakest position it has been in decades.
Do you agree with that?
Speaker 8 (46:12):
I think Iran has undoubtedly suffered a huge setback, both
in Sitia and in Lebanon, and also the economic artchips
that the Iranian economy is experiencing. But Iran is a
major geopolitical actor in our neighborhood. Well, undoubtedly still be
a factor, and I hope that the neighborhood can come
(46:35):
together and really solve some of these problems based again
on international law, renouncing terrorism, renouncing intervention in the affairs
of others, and act as normal states. Idiots. Enough of
the mess. Enough of this mess. Has been so many years,
so many decades, in which so many innocent lives had
(46:56):
been just wasted for futile wars. Enough of this.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
Do you see Saudi Arabia right now as a good
force in the region. They've obviously got a close relations.
Speaker 8 (47:09):
In Saudi Arabia Jeremy about a month ago, and I
have not been in Rial for about probably six years,
and I was amazed at what I saw in terms
of the economic regeneration, about the openness of the society.
Remember the way so many decades in which the people
(47:31):
of the region and for that much of the world
as well, have come to identify Saudi Arabia with the
most orthodox, most conservative, even support for some of these
Salafi and Jihadi movements that were coming from different parts
of so on. For Saudi Arabia to normalize its society
and to move towards this modernization and economic regeneration and
(47:56):
social openness is really a really very important statement, and
we all have a stake in the success of Saudia Aba.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
I would say, okay, I just have about ten seconds here,
but if you had a chance to talk to President
Trump about how he should approach the Middle East right now,
what would be your one line that you would tell him.
Speaker 8 (48:19):
America is an indispensable nation to the stability and the
security of the Middle East. It won't go away if
you'll be engaged. We need to partner with the good
forces in the region to making sure the region is
different from its past and the opportunity is here now.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
Well.
Speaker 1 (48:38):
Thank you so much, former President of Iraq, barham Sala
for joining us on the Middle. It's been such a
treat to have you on the show.
Speaker 8 (48:45):
Thank you, Jeremy, you most kind. Thank you for your listeners.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Thank you Ed.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
Next week, we're taking on another important topic, as California
starts to rebuild after the wildfires.
Speaker 2 (48:54):
Are you prepared for the next natural disaster.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
We'll be joined by CNN Chief Climate Course fun At,
Bill Weir, and Kim Cobb, who's the director of Brown
University's Institute for Environment and Society.
Speaker 4 (49:06):
As always, you can call in at eight four four
four Middle, that's eight four four four six four three
three five three, or you can reach out to listen
to The Middle dot com. You can also sign up
for our free weekly newsletter, and don't forget to check
out our new video podcast on YouTube where you can
watch us as well as hear us and we look.
Speaker 1 (49:21):
And sometimes you can you can see Tolliver how we
look when when callers.
Speaker 2 (49:25):
Get a little crazy. You can see that on the YouTube.
You can't hear it.
Speaker 8 (49:28):
On the radios.
Speaker 11 (49:29):
Right.
Speaker 1 (49:30):
Yeah, The Middle is brought to you by Long Noook
Media distributed by Illinois Public Media and Urbana Illinois and
produced by Harrison Patino, Danny Alexander Samburmas, Does, John barth On, Akadeshler,
and Brandon Condritz.
Speaker 2 (49:40):
Our technical director is Jason Kroft.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Thanks to our satellite radio listeners, our podcast audience, and
the more than four hundred and twenty public radio stations
that are making it possible for people across the country
to listen to the middle and talk to world leaders.
I'm Jeremy Hobson and I'll talk to you next week.
Speaker 16 (50:04):
Names
Host
Jeremy Hobson
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com