December 5, 2025 • 49 mins
On this episode of The Middle, we're asking what the state of your economy is and how that picture could change depending on where you live and how you make your living. Jeremy is joined by Kansas City-based columnist Mary Sanchez and University of Michigan economist Justin Wolfers. DJ Tolliver joins as well, plus calls from around the country. #economy #tariffs #wages #inflation #spending #finance #money #spending
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
the show and from you. Thanks for making a donation
at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our
house DJ Tolliver and Tver. We're gonna be talking about
the economy this hour. It's kind of perfect timing because
we have just had Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and Giving Tuesday,
three days where people spend a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm gonna tell you, man, I just want to walk
outside my house and have a car with a big
red ribbon on It Is that too much to ask?
I can't even drive it, but I like it.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
You know, I have good news. I have good news
for you, Taliver, because if you look under your seat
right now, everybody gets you get a car. No, you don't,
you can't afford it. Turned It turns out, though, yes,
that spending over Black Friday and Cyber Monday was up
from last year, but that could be because shoppers were
hungry for deals. It could also be because people bought
(00:58):
things using these buy now pay lester programs like Klarna
and a firm that did very well over those days,
Deloitte says overall, consumers planned to spend about ten percent
less this holiday season than they did last year. And
if you look at the big picture, you also kind
of see a split screen. Right now, the stock market
is near record highs. Gas prices are around three dollars
(01:19):
a gallon on average nationally, But the other hand, mortgage
rates are stubbornly high. The tariffs are still boosting the
cost of a lot of consumer goods, and healthcare costs
may be about to skyrocket for many people. So it's
no surprise that, according to recent data from PW, seventy
four percent of Americans say the economy is only in
fair or poor condition. Even if President Trump says affordability
(01:44):
is a hoax.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
You know, there's this fake narrative that the Democrats talk
about affordability. They just say the word. It doesn't mean anything,
Kenny Gott, He's just say it affordability. The word affordability
is a conjob by the Democrats.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
All right, now, Okay, that's what he says. This hour,
we want to hear it from you. What is the
state of your economy, Tolliver? How can people reach us?
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, you can call us at eight four four four
Middle that's eight four four four six four three three
five three, Or you can write to us that listen
to the middle dot com or comment on our live
stream on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And we want to hear from you. If you the
state of your economy is good, if it's bad, if
it's just okay, let us know. Joining us this hour
Kansas City based columnist Mary Sanchez, who writes for the
Tribune Content Agency. Mary, welcome back, thank you, and also
joining us. Justin Wolfer is Professor of economics at the
Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy at the University
of Michigan. Justin is great to have you.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
On the middle right, good to say you. Oh he well.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
And when you think about, Justin the stresses on the
economy right now, from the tariffs to job market uncertainty
and AI to the immigration crackdown, what do you make
of the fact that the retailers or seeing strong holiday
sales and the stock market is near record heights.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Let me take those two separately, and I think they
need to be thought of separately. So first of all,
we don't the jury is still out on Black Friday
and Cyber Monday, Giving Tuesday, Wacky Wednesday, and on and
on I couldn't think of anything to begin with.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Thirsty Thursday.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Thank you, you say good, You've got to give me
a Friday.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Now, it's Oliver, come on.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Frugal Friday at this point.
Speaker 6 (03:34):
Yeah, okay, So the one to the extent that we
know anything about about Freaky Friday, it's total revenues, total spending.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Now, the thing is the total amount the people.
Speaker 5 (03:47):
Spend at the store could be driven by buying more stuff,
or it could be driven by buying the same amount
of stuff but paying more, or it could be driven
by buying less stuff and paying a lot more. Given
that the there's a lot of tariffs running around and
a lot of reasons to worry the prices are going up,
and a bit of anecdotal evidence that Black Friday was
(04:08):
not the great deal that it was. I'm not convinced
by anything so far. And then i want to step
back one step further, which is, even if you told
me we bought more on Black Friday, I'm not yet
willing to call that evidence of a strong economy, because
in a weak economy, shopping for bargains is even more important.
And so it could be that what constuers do is
(04:29):
they move from Christmas Eve shopping when it's expensive to
getting the best bargains they can on Black Friday. So
I think we're gonna have to wait for the entire
holiday seasons behind us to figure out where things are at.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
That's I have to say. I put something in my
cart the other day online and I have never gotten
more messages from a retailer than them. They said, you've
got to buy this. You've got about it like you relax.
I will buy it when I want to. Mary sansays,
how do things look from where you are there in
Kansas City?
Speaker 7 (05:00):
Very much a little bit the same. I mean it
depends on who you speak with.
Speaker 8 (05:04):
You know, the.
Speaker 7 (05:04):
Economy is just so it's so personal and when you know,
I'll be really interested to hear what the callers have
to say about, you know, how they feel about their
own personal finances. You know, we're an area that has,
you know, no one main driver of our economy.
Speaker 9 (05:22):
You know, we're a bystate Kansas and Missouri. We're huge.
Speaker 7 (05:25):
We're about I think number eight in terms of being
a federal employer. So some of the DOGE layoffs and
all the uncertainty there has got a lot of people
kind of up in arms, and you know, there's a
lot of trickle down effect of that we've had. You know,
there's a new Panasonic battery giant facility on the Kansas side,
(05:48):
and they had a bit of a roll back in
how full on that they will be as a factory
because of there were some of the downturns in buying
of EV cars.
Speaker 9 (06:00):
So there's it's just uncertainty.
Speaker 7 (06:02):
I think, even if you are someone who perhaps is
a little bit you know, more secure financially, there's just
kind of that pall over things which I would think
will impact everything, giving you know.
Speaker 9 (06:14):
How much you buy, what you buy, all of that.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well, and justin would you say right now that the
tariffs are the number one sort of impact point on
the economy and how much are they affecting the state
of things?
Speaker 4 (06:30):
I think it's actually very hard to tell.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
So some amount of what's going on with the tariffs
is they were so uncertain for so long. It literally
took the administration until a couple of months ago to
finally actually settle on what it was they were going
to do. Of course, they changed them again the next weekend,
but they're sort of as settled as they're going to be,
which is to say they're going to change all the time.
So they haven't been with us that long. A lot
of businesses didn't immediately pass them on as higher costs,
(06:54):
and so we're in the midst of a transition. A
simple rule of thumb is if something's not expected to
affect your costs for long, then you don't change your
retail prices.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
But if you expect them to hang around, then you do.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
And Tariff's only recently moved from temporary to feeling kind
of permanent. So we're not all the way there yet.
There's a second thing going on that I think is
very second and a third. The second thing is uncertainty,
and uncertainly I think it's at the heart of some
of what Mary was reflecting, that people individually feel somewhat
ill at ease, and so when you look at consumer
(07:28):
confidence and surveys of how people feel, they feel wildly
queasy right now. And the third thing that I don't
think we've spent enough time talking about is something that
we don't normally talk about as economists, which is, you know,
we talk about monetary shocks and fiscal shocks. I've got
a whole new one for you a competence shock, that
(07:50):
there is either a profound problem of competence at the
head of the administration or alternatively, a crisis of confidence
in the cot of the administration. This is an administration.
It took ten months to discover that the US doesn't
grow bananas, and that if we tariff bananas that we
won't onshore banana factories.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Because Trump just to explain to our audience that Trump
just reversed the tariffs on bananas and coffee and beef
to kind of try to bring those prices down.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yes, thank you for that, Jeremy.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
And the thing is, my thirteen year old son, who
hasn't yet studied economics, already understood the folly of a
banana tariff. And it's not just bananas, by the way,
it's that things are. Bananas might be something of a metaphor,
but things like at tax on the Federal Reserve, or
firing the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics for
(08:45):
reporting the truth which happened to be an unpleasant truth,
or the CEO of Intel walking into the White House
and walking out without having left ten percent of his
company behind accidentally, or the approach that you now need
to bring a gift whenever you want to see a present.
These are all things that are just very very unusual
and I think really are giving people across the country pools.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Mary. The other thing that's going on that, you know,
if it weren't for all of these other things, would
probably be the thing we were talking about and its
impact on the economy is the immigration crackdown, which has
had an effect across the country on so many industries.
How is that having an effect on our economy do
you think, Mary Sanchez?
Speaker 7 (09:27):
The first thing that you'd probably look at would be
the farmies. You know, farmers that they can't get enough
of their labors. You know, we've had several migrant streams
come through and a lot of trepidation with the people
of just even trying to fulfill those roles of working
in fields there threatened.
Speaker 9 (09:45):
You're literally out in the open.
Speaker 7 (09:47):
You're going to start seeing it in all sorts of manufacturing.
It's just that the fear so many families are mixed status,
where you'll have someone who is documented and someone who
is and well, if one of your wager earners is undocumented,
if they are taken out of the labor force, the
impact on that family is huge, and it's just again
(10:10):
it's with everything like economics.
Speaker 9 (10:12):
It's a ripple effect.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
You see.
Speaker 7 (10:13):
You start seeing that in schools, in communities where there's
a lot of fear. Some of the students have wanted
to go on what we're doing right now? Can I
just learn by zoom that they're either fearful to leave
a parent at home who might be undocumented, or they're
fearful of the fearful themselves.
Speaker 9 (10:33):
So it's just you know, you're going to see it
at a lot of different levels. You may not.
Speaker 7 (10:38):
It kind of depends because immigrants are highly concentrated in
some areas at more of a you know, what they
would call a lower manual labor. But then you've also
got now the hits on the H one b's, which
is a college educated person, and that's going to hit
in a lot of other different sectors as some of
those changes are going to roll out, where they're making
(11:00):
it harder and harder for people to come. For people
to it already was a problem. I mean, you always
hear about all the problems we have backlogs.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Well, I want to remind our listeners you can reach
us at eight four four four Middle, that's eight four
four four six four three three five three. Tolliver, we
mentioned the tariffs as one of the main economic headwinds
right now.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, remember when Trump put them into effect back in April,
he called it Liberation Day. In the White House, Press
Secretary Carolyn Levitt told News Nation that the tariffs would
not be painful for Americans.
Speaker 10 (11:35):
As for prices, in what the American public can expect,
they can expect price stability, they can expect to buy
American it's a patriotic thing to do. And most importantly,
they can expect their way just to go up.
Speaker 7 (11:48):
This won't be painful at all for American people and consumers.
Speaker 10 (11:52):
Caroline, it's going to be There's not going to be
any pain for American owned companies and American workers because
their jobs are going to come back home.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
And by the way, Tolliver, we have not seen manufacturing
jobs come back. In fact, the latest jobs report showed
another drop in manufacturing. Color surprised in this country. Right
back with your calls coming up on the middle, this
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning
in the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle, geographically, politically, philosophically,
(12:22):
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking what the state of your economy is? Tolliver,
what is the number to call in?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media and I'll try to get your
comments on air.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I'm joined by Tributning Content Agency columnist Mary Sanchez and
University of Michigan economist Justin Wolfers. And the phone lines
are lighting up, So let's get to Nathan, who is
calling in from Tampa, Florida. Nathan, what is the state
of your economy?
Speaker 11 (12:55):
How do you doing? As I said before, I've recently
gotten you accident, had to buy a new car. I
was smart than me. I decided not to buy a
new car. Decided to buy a car.
Speaker 12 (13:08):
Uh uh that that I could I wouldn't have to
make payments on because when I.
Speaker 11 (13:14):
Got back on my feet, I do I do gigwork.
Speaker 12 (13:19):
So when I got back on my feet, everything held
to us like a snail's pace.
Speaker 11 (13:24):
Like I normally I've been listening a lot of our
conversations because you guys are like my like my office mates.
When I go out and I drive, I hear you
guys talking.
Speaker 12 (13:34):
But on the on the bright side, I got to
play a lot of Final Fantasy Tactics. Uh, finally got
around to play into video games.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
But so you're you're a gig worker, but you got
into a car accident?
Speaker 13 (13:47):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Are you some who like did you drive like for
Uber has? I mean, have you been able to do
your work right now?
Speaker 11 (13:53):
I'm doing door Dash and my other gig job as
a security guy at Raymond James. Uh, good Bucks. But
you know something else.
Speaker 12 (14:07):
Is that that I think for a long, long, long
time we've been relying.
Speaker 11 (14:11):
On the the stock tickers as a metrics of the
health of our economy, and and it's just it's too
much of a fallacy to really look at that and
think about how are the people of the economy are doing.
Speaker 12 (14:31):
I'm sure if they were stock tickers back in the
slavery days, you'd.
Speaker 11 (14:36):
Say everything honky Dori, you know what I mean. But
it's not necessarily I think a sign of good health.
I mean, it can be I'm not going to.
Speaker 12 (14:48):
Be one of those people that are black and white
about it.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
But it's a it's a good point, Nathan, and let
me take that to our guests, Justin Wolfer is a
very good point that, you know, for a gig worker
who cares how the stock market is doing, what do
you make of just the difference between the stock market
and then somebody like Nathan, who is, you know, working
in the gig economy and even just a car accident
(15:12):
can really change things for him economically.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Right, And so the important point here is that when
we approach what might be a slow down in the economy,
we don't all approach it from a similar point.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Nathan. It sounds like you're doing a tough mate.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
I'm glad you're doing okay, but you know, I'm sure
that if there is a downturn and door dash starts
to dry up a little, we have to realize, you know,
there's much bigger effects on some folks than others, and
that's intensely painful. Let me come back to the stock market.
I want to make two points on this. The first
is very interesting. The President keeps boasting about the stock
market and I can't tell you the number of interviews
(15:48):
I've done recently where people say, if you're pretty down
on the economy, why does the stock market keep hitting
new hives. I have to remember the US is not
an ireland. We're part of a global economy. And so
one thing I recently did is I calculated the total
gain and stocks for every leading economy between inauguration day
and the present. I did it for the twenty three
(16:09):
largest economies. The United States stock market's up about fifteen
or twenty percent over that period. Much of the rest
of the world is up much much more. Out of
those twenty three countries, guess where we ranked. We were
twenty third, Sorry, we were twentieth out of twenty three countries.
We're ahead of the United States, was ahead of Australia,
New Zealand, and Denmark. And the Danish stock market is
(16:31):
almost entirely Novo Nordisk, which has the weight loss.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Wonder drug, right, it has gone south recently.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
So, yeah, the stocks are up, but they're up a
whole lot more elsewhere. And then you can go one
step further, which was Nathan's point, which is the stock
market is not the economy. The stock market is the
expected performance of large companies this is an administration that
focuses on existing large companies, and of course they're actually
doing moderately well. They can call the White House whenever
(16:58):
tariffs are getting in the way and get particular exceptions
made for them, But for smaller businesses, they don't have
that line to the White House. And so it's a
style of governing that advantages those parts of the economy
that are on the stock market, and disadvantages the rest
of the economy.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Right and especially parts of the economy not just on
the stock market, but that are in artificial intelligence and
are just so much of the stock market right now,
Alex is calling in from Houston, Texas. Alex, go ahead
with your thoughts about the state of the economy.
Speaker 14 (17:30):
How are y'all doing, guys? Most day the calm me,
I would say, you're pretty good. I'm not too much
a complaint about I'm in you know, I just think
that most of these companies, big big companies. I think
they keep the price artificially high just because they want profits.
I mean, who are we going to get here?
Speaker 8 (17:49):
Right?
Speaker 14 (17:49):
You're not going to say we're going to keep the
parts of the age, you know, We're not going to
bring them down. No, you want to keep them high
if you're going to make more problems. So personally, I
don't see it as a problem. I just think you
just have to manage your budget well and say and
if you could invest, invest I mean, I want to
look at the stock market as an indicator of how
good we're doing it. It's just people taking advantage of
(18:11):
the market because it's good right now to put your
money in there. But you know, I personally believe that
the market's a balloon. I went and put every all
my eggs in one basket. That's just my opinion, and
I would diverse.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Can I ask you one question, Alex, let me just
ask you one follow up question, just because the polls
are showing that people on different sides politically see the
economy differently, Can I ask you who did you vote
for in the last presidential election?
Speaker 14 (18:37):
Well, I'm not ashamed to say I vote for Trump.
I mean, you know, you know, if you're going to
base your opinion on what people say all the time, you,
I mean, that's kind of a low indicator. I mean
Obama say that a lot of things. You know, he
came from a very the press economy when he took
over when Bush left, and you know, I give him
(19:01):
a chance, you know, I mean give Trump a chance.
I mean, gosh, you guy's been there a couple of months.
We're still facing lad if you want to call it
like that. I mean, we want to play politics. We
could play politics all day. But I think most of
these companies don't want to lower the prices of just
making good profits right now. I mean that's just my opinion.
I mean, if it was different, you know, if there
was a depression like they said there is, these companies
(19:23):
wouldn't be making money. They wouldn't people want to be
buying inky right now. But you know, you go to
a mall, you go to roachy store, they're packed and
look some of that.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Some of them are alex. But we've got your point there.
But thank you for the call. I appreciate it. Mary Sanchez.
What do you think of that. I don't want to
say that he's only saying what he's saying because he,
you know, voted for Trump. I just think that's an
interesting point there.
Speaker 7 (19:48):
I think, yeah, I mean I thought it was interesting.
He says, you know, I'm not ashamed of it, and
that right, they'll tells you that some of the messaging
is that you should be ashamed of it, or perhaps
you should be ashamed because you're doing okay. You know
the only thing that I really flag on sometimes and
he did in your caller, Nathan did not do that.
(20:09):
But as when you start deciding who is worthy and
who isn't or who is costing one of the things,
you know, talking about CEOs and companies, it's like who's
in charge? Who is who is the problem of my
pain if I can't afford something? And that's where messaging
I think is absorbed so differently depending on your political view,
(20:32):
which can be tied to your finances.
Speaker 9 (20:35):
If all of your.
Speaker 7 (20:36):
Money is tied up in stocks and the stock market
is doing well, then you're going to be with okay
with whoever you think is in charge of that. If
that's not your reality, you may look elsewhere for someone
to blame about why you're not doing well.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Can I just add something to you, because as you said,
something so interesting, which is we all worry about high prices,
and you're blaming companies corporate greed, and I hear you.
There's a lovely expression that I think has a lot
of truth to it. Blaming corporations for high prices is
like blaming gravity for a plane crash. At some level,
(21:15):
it's literally true. If there were no gravity, the plane
wouldn't have crashed. If corporate greed didn't exist, the prices
wouldn't be high. But we tend to take gravity as
an eternal constant, and we tend to take companies being
greedy as an eternal constant. So then that raises the
deeper question, given that we always have greedy companies, why
or how is it that right now they're able to
(21:37):
take a bigger chunk out of your paycheck. Then maybe
at some point in the past, and.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
You think that they are taking a bigger chunk out
of our paycheck, then it points in the past. It's
not just like the price of everything is going up
and they're charging a little bit more, but they're you
think they're taking more right now.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Justin I was trying to meet Alex where he's at.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
We can have long and de conversations about how much
prices right now would you to costs going out versus
profit margins.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
But you know, for those who think.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
It's greed, I agree, it's greed at a literal level,
But there's something even deeper. That allows greed to express
itself more virulently at different points in time.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah, Talliver, I'm he gets you in one second, but
I do. We have a trucker on the line from Youngstown, Ohio,
so let's get to him before we lose him somehow.
Travis is calling in. Travis, tell us about the state
of your economy.
Speaker 8 (22:27):
So currently, the biggest thing I'm noticing is the dollar
just doesn't stretch as much and you spend more get less.
And that goes for across from my hometown Youngstown to
across the country. We've been having to rely more on
even broken loads because our core customers can't even provide
(22:50):
as much anymore because it just seems like there's not
as much of a demand due to price.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I was actually in a car when I was in
Texas a few weeks ago Travis with somebody who's in
the trucking industry, and he said, a lot of these
trucks right now are empty, but they still have to
run because of if you don't run them, then you
don't have a business when it comes back.
Speaker 8 (23:17):
Yep, And that seems to be a lot of the
thing you just have to try to fill in as
much as you can. It's just basically, fortunately the industry
the way it is.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Well, thank you calling in, by the way, where are
you are you in your truck right now? Where are
you calling from?
Speaker 8 (23:35):
I'm in my truck heading into Chicago right.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Now, all right, Travis, thank you very much for the
call justin. You know, that's a that's an interesting part
of our economy too. Somebody who travels the entire country
and gets to see how things are in different places,
and they could be very different from place to place
around the United States.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Yeah, like what a life Travis has.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
And thanks for getting my vegis to me and all
the goods that I need. Travis says this other long
term thing. He probably doesn't need me to tell him,
but his way of life is under threat. Driverless trucking
is not very far away, and so even as he's
trying to make his paycheck stretch a little further, my
(24:17):
guess he's worried about what's going to happen five or
ten years down the line.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well, and Tolliver, you know there's an AIDJ on Spotify stuff.
That's a perfect segue ticket back to you. You can
pay me less than him it's fine, Well, what's coming
in online? That's something that AIDJ can't tell us.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Right, Sandra says, the state of my financial picture is
shaky at best. My internet provider is increasing by one
hundred and twenty dollars a year, and my insurance provider
has reduced how far my Medicare dollars will go in
twenty twenty six. Bottom line, I'm afraid of the future
and only my trust in God gives me hope. And
then Johannas and Florida said, DIMS have been willing to
abandon the New Deal and move right to meet the
GOP halfway for decades, forcing the GOP to move further right.
(24:57):
Now that Mom Donnie has put affordability on the map,
are claiming it as well. Will DIMS move further right
with a twenty dollars federal minium wage, an elimination of
the tipped minimum wage, or Medicare for all, or a
green New Deal? Spoiler alert, No, DIMS are weak, Spicy Mary.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
An interesting point there, just about affordability, because we just
had another election this week in the state of Tennessee,
where affordability was the key issue, just like it was
in New York. City, just like it was in Virginia,
just like it was in New Jersey. Voters care about it.
Do you see it impacting the politics? I mean President
Trump has said all along that this is all about
(25:35):
the Fed not lowering interest rates fast enough. But do
you think that these elections are going to affect the
way that the economy is handled going forward this year,
next year.
Speaker 7 (25:46):
I think it's going to take longer than that, because
if you really look at everything that impacts the economy,
you know, as Justin would be able to explain far
better than I.
Speaker 9 (25:56):
It's so many factors.
Speaker 7 (25:58):
It's not like if you just put one per and
in the White House the economy is going to completely
turn over and that we're going to suddenly have manufacturing,
particularly if you've the cost of metals to build all
those factory plants has been messed up through tariffs. It's
just it's so convoluted. I don't think I think it
may impact how people vote. It may not impact the
(26:21):
outcome that they believe. What I hear a lot in
that caller, though, is just the idea of you know,
Democrats and Republicans not working together. People know that their
government is not working well.
Speaker 9 (26:34):
They might not be.
Speaker 7 (26:35):
Able to fully go into well, here is how this
tax subsidy, this is here is how this was done
over a period of thirty years that influenced a certain
type of development and not others. They may not be
able to unravel all of that to figure out some
of these deeper things, but they know it when they hurt,
they know it when they feel insecure.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Let's go to Alexander, who's calling in from Denver, Colorado.
Speaker 12 (27:02):
Alexandra, go ahead with your thoughts about the state of
the economy.
Speaker 15 (27:07):
Yes, so, thank you so much for taking my call.
I'm so thrilled to be on your show. And you
know very quickly, I am very concerned about the middle
and lower class and the idea that people of wealth
just keep getting wealthier, and the system very much seems
designed to help the people in who already have wealth
(27:27):
get more wealth. But my question for you has to
do with with the inflation, because the prices don't come down.
It seems like we talk about the rate of inflation
coming down, but the actual prices never come down. So
once the house costs eight hundred thousand dollars, it's not
going down back down to five hundred thousand dollars, and
(27:48):
I do see that changing.
Speaker 11 (27:50):
And how does that like?
Speaker 15 (27:52):
Is there something because frankly, the Republicans seem to support
the get wealthy wealthier and seem to support something around affordability,
But how do we actually have deflation in a way
that's productive for all of us who who are trying
to survive?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Now, Alexander, we don't want deflation, justin Wolfer's we don't
want the prices to start going down, but we do
want people to make enough money that they can afford
the higher prices. Are we ever going to get to
a point where that is the case?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Right?
Speaker 5 (28:28):
So it's time that we have a mature, serious and
responsible discussion about this. And the problem is that the
President lied to the American people and he's pushed us
down an absolutely absurd road. Here's a reality of healthy
modern economies. They all have some degree of inflation on average.
What you want is inflation to be low enough that
you can fairly notice it and you you don't have
(28:50):
to keep worrying about it every day. The Fed thinks
that means inflation a round about two percent. So usually
if we had a good, serious economic to buy in
this country, we would be talking about how do we
lower inflation, what is the right rate of inflation, what
should we do about inflation?
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Things like that.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
The problem is the President promised to bring prices down.
The only tool he has to do that would be
by crushing the economy. It's a profoundly bad idea. Worse
than that, if prices are falling, what are you and
I going to do? Am I going to go and
buy that new TV this week knowing it's going to
be even cheaper next week?
Speaker 4 (29:28):
It creates a lot of problems. So let's be serious.
Speaker 5 (29:31):
The way we make up for inflation, these people get
wage rises, don't wait around and don't chief a price
is to come down.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
It would be deeply irresponsible.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Well, and as we said Tolliver, President Trump has called
affordability a con job by the Democrats. But Marjorie Taylor Green,
who until recently had been a strong supporter of the President, disagrees.
Speaker 8 (29:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
She says, the Republicans ignore the cost of living issues
at their own peril. Here she is on.
Speaker 16 (29:57):
CNN, Inflation crush people in the past four and a
half years, and the costs have not come down. I
myself can tell you my apartment here in Washington, d C.
The electricity bills one hundred dollars more than it was
last year. Because you can look at your own bill
and look at at cost. Prices have not come down.
That that is a reality. People's wages have not gone up.
(30:21):
That's another reality. And so Americans are continuing to have
a very difficult time getting by.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
And as you know, Margine hither Green says she is
resigning from Congress in January. They always get really honest
right before they result leave.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Yeah, that's what happens.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
We'll be right back with your calls on the Middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're
taking your calls on the State of your Economy with
columnist Mary Sanchez and economist Justin Wolfers. You can call
in at eight four four four Middle. That's a four
four four six four three three five three. You can
reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com. And
let's get right back to the phones because the lines
are full. Monicas calling from Philadelphia, Monica, go ahead, what's
(31:02):
the state of your economy?
Speaker 5 (31:05):
Hi?
Speaker 17 (31:05):
Thank you so at least in Philadelphia, and I know
it's pretty much nationwide. The cost of food for the
average family, and I'm a single mom with two boys,
has gone up so much in the last three months
that my budget for each month has gone from food
being maybe around maybe like a quarter to a third.
(31:30):
Now it's up to half. It's not more of that
is how profound that impact has been and how huge
the food inflation has been on the average every day
America like me, and what.
Speaker 11 (31:46):
Are you doing about that?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Or what do you want to be done about that? Monica?
Speaker 17 (31:51):
Right? So things that I do, right, of course, I'll
try to shop where I can get economies of scale
right by by bulk right look for sale story, all
that stuff. But the much larger picture is this is
not sustainable for America to continue to survive. So the
legislators at the state ideally at the federal level, but
(32:15):
we're not going to be seeing that happen. But at
least at the state level, you need to put something
in place for like the staples, things like you know,
milk eggs, remember that went up to like six seven
dollars for a dozen, right, things like that, some type
of legislation that's designed, you know, to counteract what's going on, Monica.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Thank you very much for the other point.
Speaker 17 (32:42):
Was that my other point was that the average Americans
should not have to rely on how the stock mark
is doing for our for our retirement. But because most
companies no longer also instance, right, then we are forced
to have to play that game.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Right, everybody's got there there four one ks now as
their pension. Thank you very much for that, Monica and
Mary Sancha a lot there. But I just couldn't help
but think as Monica was talking about that, that it
was about a month ago that food stamp snap benefits
were cut off for people because of the government shut down.
That's exactly what Monica is basically saying is there should
(33:26):
be something to help people get the staples. That's what
that is for.
Speaker 9 (33:31):
That is what that was for.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
But that gets into those whole arguments about who is
working hard enough, who is worthy.
Speaker 9 (33:39):
Of being helped, who actually needs.
Speaker 7 (33:42):
And deserves help, And that's that's where we do get
into these you know, political decisions and policy making. One
of the things this is kind of probably maybe ining
Justine's area could probably say it better, but I think,
you know, the idea that the cost of food is
going up so much. I do think there is some
(34:04):
data that shows that it's up higher this year, at
a higher percentage than it was before. But it is
it's always going to be rising.
Speaker 9 (34:12):
Costs rise.
Speaker 7 (34:13):
I don't expect to pay what my mother paid for
some things.
Speaker 9 (34:20):
I just don't. But my wages have not gone up
enough for sure, because I'm in journalism.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
To be able to counteract some of that well, and
justin you know, it's interesting we're hearing about food this
hour and not gas prices, which actually are I mean,
of course we remember when they were cheaper than what
they are now, but they're relatively less expensive than they
have been in recent years. It's around two ninety nine
I think on average nationally for a gallon of gas.
(34:50):
But people are noticing the food prices more right now.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
Yes, I guess is about three bucks a gallon, which
is about the average over the past six years. So
nothing to celebrate, nothing to commiserate. Just it is what
it is. Look, I can never speak to a single
mum like Monica without saying thank you. I'm the son
of a single mum myself, and you're doing amazing stuff there, mate.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
Food prices have gone up.
Speaker 5 (35:15):
Probably it feels, Monica like you might be on the
really sharp end of it, I don't think they've gone
up that much across the country. Your experience may well
be different, and it probably depends how much we eat beef,
which is particularly expensive at the moment. Fortunately, my family's vegetarian,
so we've avoided all of that. But as you look forward,
I do worry about what's going to happen in the
(35:37):
working in middle class Americans. Tariffs take a bigger bite
out of the budget of working class than rich Americans,
because working class folks spend more. The Big Beautiful Bill
from President Trump is the largest redistribution from porter rich
in a single bill in American history, and next year
we're looking at potentially millions of people being cut off
(35:58):
Medicaid as well as everything that's going on with health
insurance costs.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
So this is one of those cases.
Speaker 5 (36:05):
Where it is really important to do what you're doing, Jeremy,
talking to people around the country, because the averages, which
is what GDP tells us about, are pretty healthy, But
those averages are telling us are hiding the reality that
a lot of working middle class folks are going to
be doing without as there has been a big redistribution
to the rich.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Well and we haven't gotten the government data that we
usually get because of the government shutdown, a lot of
it has been delayed. Let's get to another caller. Sarah
is calling in from Birmingham, Alabama. Hi, Sarah, go ahead
with your thoughts on the economy.
Speaker 11 (36:41):
Hi.
Speaker 18 (36:42):
So, I'm a graduate student and we have a fixed
income at least for five years, and on top of that,
we aren't allowed to have another job. We're paid once
a month. So it's just been kind of hard trying
to budget, as you know, being on the brink of
society as a graduate student. So my question is, do
(37:05):
you have any advice of where to cut back the
most and you know how to predict these unpredictable costs?
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Interesting question, Sarah, Mary, I guess do you have any
advice for Sarah? Where can she cut back?
Speaker 11 (37:25):
Wow?
Speaker 7 (37:25):
See, that is so it's so personal, you know, and
what people spend money on.
Speaker 9 (37:31):
Is so personal. She didn't mention food.
Speaker 7 (37:34):
It's interesting to me that we're speaking of food so
much because to me, that tells more of the dire state.
Speaker 9 (37:42):
That's basic. That's like Maslow, you know, if.
Speaker 7 (37:45):
You can't afford to have the roof over your head
or to feed your children. I don't know, and I
didn't hear enough from the graduate student to know, you
know how you would and frankly for anyone, even an
outside her, to make some judgments about what money they
have and where they're putting it. You know, is their
car too nice by somebody's standards?
Speaker 9 (38:08):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 7 (38:09):
I only recently ended up with a car payment, and
I absolutely hate it because I went more than twenty
years without one, and I view that as like this
horribly negative thing that I've done, even.
Speaker 9 (38:21):
Though I like my car and I bought it used.
Speaker 7 (38:24):
So again, I think that almost and this is how
this plays out in society is how you start judging
people of who isn't managing their money? Well, you know,
who is to blame for the fact that she needs
to figure this out. But it sounds like she's trapped
in a certain dynamic of where she can't take another
(38:45):
job and probably still get the graduate degree.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Well, and we just did a show a couple of
weeks ago about whether people are worried that artificial intelligence
is going to take their job. And as we heard
one person after another call in and say they were
worried or it already has taken their job. I'm thinking
to myself, this is nobody's fault, not a single one
of these people, you know, who went through their whole
you know, and preparation and career, preparing for something. It's
(39:12):
not their fault that artificial intelligence has come along and
made it cheaper for a company to do it that way.
But anyway, a lot there. Let's get to Frank, who's
in Plano, Texas and has been on the line. Frank,
what about you, what's the state of your economy?
Speaker 19 (39:28):
Well, first of all, for the record, the last three elections,
I didn't go for either Democrat or Republican, voted for
the another party third party. But my personal economy is
I have a legacy. We are living on the legacy
(39:49):
of four generations of people who have left us.
Speaker 11 (39:54):
Enough.
Speaker 19 (39:55):
Now what am I doing in terms of my spending
cutting back on my travel expenses even though we have
children live out of the country, and also cutting down
on potential spending on other things that we want to
do with our life. But the point is legacy. There
(40:17):
are so many people who don't have the leg I'm privileged.
I'm going to say that I'm privileged. I have the
legacy and there's so many people. Let's take Tulsa, Oklahoma
for example, what would be the legacy of those descendants
of those people if they had had their continued work.
So again, we're not going to solve the problem on
(40:38):
this show, you know that, But I do believe that
there's so much that has to be done to correct
the legacy issues of people in dire situations today.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Yeah, a lot of people inherited money and a lot
of people did not inherit any money.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
Justin your thoughts, I just want to add one of
the most important things that the next generation may inherit
is a well functioning economy. If we hand off the richest,
most productive economy in the world, that's given them plenty
to make their start, even if they don't come up
with inheritance. And so then the question is are we
(41:18):
doing what we need to do to hand off a
well functioning economy to the next generation. That then leads
to these sort of deeper questions, what is it that
drives American prosperity? And are we preserving those institutions that
drive American prosperity? And so at the moment, it's ironic
that we have a conservative government conservative in name, but
(41:40):
actually radical in approach. And so maybe they're right and
maybe they're fixing everything, or maybe they're wrong and maybe
they're destroying everything. But either way, the next generation are
the ones who are going to discover what it was
they were left.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, an interesting point that it's not about necessarily being
left something physical, but being left an economy that allows
them to have opportunity. Chico is calling in from Asheville,
North Carolina. Hi, Chico, go ahead with your thoughts about
the state of the economy.
Speaker 13 (42:11):
Oh well, well, yeah, I mean as far as the
initial question, the state of my economy. I work. I
used to be a school teacher years ago. I can't
imagine being able to do that today. I have so
much respect for them. I have what I consider a
very good job. It's a solid job. I work for
a manufacturing company in town. Right, So I actually work
(42:32):
in a manufacturing facility in the state. And it's good. Right,
My economy is good. I have two adult children that
I have just I'm really worried about them, right, Like,
what kind of economy are they going to have? What
are they going to be able to do in the
near future here, So that's probably my biggest concern.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
And so Chico, I'm just let me just ask you,
you're not bothered by, for example, some of the things
we've heard about this how food that's more expensive? You
can you're able to weather that week with your salary.
Speaker 13 (43:04):
Yeah, I definitely feel I'm lucky enough that well, I'm
conscious of those things, those expenses going up, It's not
anything that has impacted me yet severely, Right, do I
say as much as I would like to? Probably not,
But you know, I think I could probably cut more here,
and you're going to do that, So I feel like
(43:25):
it's pretty good. There's concerned the working per manufacturing company
like this though, and with the tariffs and with things
like that, it's very difficult for to plan for profit
and planning and things like that for the future when
it just seems so chaotic at this point. Right, So
that is probably a big challenge, particularly when I when
(43:46):
I look at my own my job.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, uh, Chico, thank you very much for that. Let
me get to another caller here. Roger is in Grantsburg, Wisconsin. Roger,
what about the state of your economy.
Speaker 20 (43:59):
Well, my economy's kind of tightened. Everything around here has
gone up and we're fixing here for to me, like
probably the coldest winter here in a long long time.
We've been pretty lucky, you know, and that's starting off here.
Tomorrow's my birthday, it's seventh fifth, and wow, we're already freezing,
you know. I dealt with frozen wat for two days.
(44:19):
Oh boy, real.
Speaker 11 (44:23):
It cover.
Speaker 4 (44:26):
Well.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
And you're worried about the cold because because it's going
to be more expensive for you to heat your home
all be Oh.
Speaker 20 (44:33):
Yes, I just build my tank and my propane tank,
and I was We was dollars forty nine nine a gallon,
so five hundred and thirty four bucks to go up.
And that's good for rebe a month, you know. If
it's really really cold, it'll be about a month and a half.
Sixty days usually for a tank, is what I figured out.
So there's another five hundred of me. That'd be a
(44:53):
fifteen hundred dollars winter for heating, you know. And that's
it's only heat I have. I don't have any alternative.
Speaker 15 (44:59):
We're what I can do.
Speaker 19 (45:01):
I've thought about it.
Speaker 20 (45:02):
I live in a mobile home and that's that's.
Speaker 11 (45:03):
What we got.
Speaker 8 (45:05):
Other than plastic and hey.
Speaker 20 (45:07):
Bales looks like kind of hillbilly but it works, you know.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
But but you sound like you've got a good attitude
about it, Roger. You sound like you're gonna you're you're
gonna figure it out.
Speaker 20 (45:17):
Well, it's kind of one of these things where you
gotta be you just gotta like, you know, you gotta
ensure endeavor to persevere. No, that's yeah, yeah, pull that
line from Joe Old Joelsey Wales.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Well, I so appreciate your call, Roger, thank you so
much for that.
Speaker 11 (45:36):
We do.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
I think, yeah, he definitely should be a regular. But Mary, uh,
you know you hear that he's living in a mobile home.
He's worried about the cost of heating. Uh, but he's
got that that attitude too.
Speaker 7 (45:52):
That's interesting, that's well, that's very American, and it's very human.
I mean, humans are inherently resilient. It is a amazing
what we can overcome. I think when you talk about
government and structures and systems of society, how can how
can those things help?
Speaker 9 (46:10):
What is just inherently human? You know, we're resilient.
Speaker 7 (46:14):
We want to provide for our families, we want to
do better, we want to move forward.
Speaker 9 (46:18):
I think most people are good in kind, Most.
Speaker 7 (46:20):
People will help other people when they see need, but
they're more likely to do it when they have something
to give, you know, if they if it's okay for
them to skim a little off of their own budget,
to hell about someone else. So to me, that's, you know,
how do we build that society? A couple of people
have mentioned the middle class. You know, I can't even
(46:42):
I don't know what the exact numbers are right now,
But as long as you don't have a strong middle class,
you don't have a working population. You want that strong
middle class that really moves things along.
Speaker 9 (46:55):
Entrepreneurs, small business.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Well let me we've actually run out of time this hour,
but I want to bring the last question here to
Justin because it gets to some of the things that
have come up in the course of this hour, and
that is uncertainty about the future and so many people
not knowing what the future holds and therefore what they
should do. So, as the economist here at Justin, what
would be your advice to people right now? Is it
(47:21):
a moment to hang tight on a big financial decision
like buying a new car or buying a new house,
or doing or moving or taking a new job, or
should or should you just go for it and hope
for the best.
Speaker 5 (47:34):
The problem with the macro economy, which is what we're
talking about, is that it's three hundred and forty million stories,
each of which are different, and so I can't tell
everyone everything. So what I wanted to do, Jeremy, was
totally ignore your question, yeah, and come back and say
we've done a little bit too much public radio doomerism.
We've talked about how everything's hot, So let me just
(47:55):
put this in context, because you hear lots of different
things about the economy, and just just thinking about how
to sort these facts out I think is really important.
Speaker 4 (48:03):
So I want to throw a couple of facts out there.
Speaker 5 (48:05):
First, one is twenty twenty five will be the richest
year in all of humanity. Second, the United States is
the richest large economy in the world. Therefore, third, we
are all right now in the richest country in the
(48:26):
history of the world.
Speaker 4 (48:27):
Right, So it's not all doom Now. That's one set
of facts, and they're all true.
Speaker 5 (48:34):
We still have a vibrant economic debate, and I've said
a bunch of times tonight I think there's things we're
doing wrong, and that's because the point of our debate
is not about how great we are or aren't doing.
It's about whether we're falling short of our potential. So
if we're falling short at all, there's a lot to
talk about, because even if we're doing great, if we
could do extraordinary, that's worth it.
Speaker 4 (48:56):
And so yes we're optimistic.
Speaker 5 (48:58):
Well sorry, yes things are going pretty well, but yes
we could do even better.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
That is Justin Wolfer's an economist at the University of Michigan.
We've also been speaking with Mary Sanchez, a calmnist with
a Tribune content agency. Thanks so much to both of
you for joining us.
Speaker 4 (49:12):
Pleasure.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Thank you, And next week, Taliver, we're gonna be asking
if going green matters to you, things like buying an
electric vehicle, cutting down on emissions, putting solar panels on
your house. We'll be asking about that. You can go
to Listen to the Middle dot com to join us,
or call eight four four four six four three three
five three. That's it for us. I'm Jeremy Hobson. I
(49:33):
will talk to you next week.
Support for the Middle comes from the stations that air
the show and from you. Thanks for making a donation
at Listen to the Middle dot com.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Welcome to the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson, along with our
house DJ Tolliver and Tver. We're gonna be talking about
the economy this hour. It's kind of perfect timing because
we have just had Black Friday, Cyber Monday, and Giving Tuesday,
three days where people spend a lot of money.
Speaker 1 (00:28):
I'm gonna tell you, man, I just want to walk
outside my house and have a car with a big
red ribbon on It Is that too much to ask?
I can't even drive it, but I like it.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
You know, I have good news. I have good news
for you, Taliver, because if you look under your seat
right now, everybody gets you get a car. No, you don't,
you can't afford it. Turned It turns out, though, yes,
that spending over Black Friday and Cyber Monday was up
from last year, but that could be because shoppers were
hungry for deals. It could also be because people bought
(00:58):
things using these buy now pay lester programs like Klarna
and a firm that did very well over those days,
Deloitte says overall, consumers planned to spend about ten percent
less this holiday season than they did last year. And
if you look at the big picture, you also kind
of see a split screen. Right now, the stock market
is near record highs. Gas prices are around three dollars
(01:19):
a gallon on average nationally, But the other hand, mortgage
rates are stubbornly high. The tariffs are still boosting the
cost of a lot of consumer goods, and healthcare costs
may be about to skyrocket for many people. So it's
no surprise that, according to recent data from PW, seventy
four percent of Americans say the economy is only in
fair or poor condition. Even if President Trump says affordability
(01:44):
is a hoax.
Speaker 3 (01:47):
You know, there's this fake narrative that the Democrats talk
about affordability. They just say the word. It doesn't mean anything,
Kenny Gott, He's just say it affordability. The word affordability
is a conjob by the Democrats.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
All right, now, Okay, that's what he says. This hour,
we want to hear it from you. What is the
state of your economy, Tolliver? How can people reach us?
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, you can call us at eight four four four
Middle that's eight four four four six four three three
five three, Or you can write to us that listen
to the middle dot com or comment on our live
stream on YouTube.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
And we want to hear from you. If you the
state of your economy is good, if it's bad, if
it's just okay, let us know. Joining us this hour
Kansas City based columnist Mary Sanchez, who writes for the
Tribune Content Agency. Mary, welcome back, thank you, and also
joining us. Justin Wolfer is Professor of economics at the
Gerald R. Ford School of Public Policy at the University
of Michigan. Justin is great to have you.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
On the middle right, good to say you. Oh he well.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
And when you think about, Justin the stresses on the
economy right now, from the tariffs to job market uncertainty
and AI to the immigration crackdown, what do you make
of the fact that the retailers or seeing strong holiday
sales and the stock market is near record heights.
Speaker 5 (03:05):
Let me take those two separately, and I think they
need to be thought of separately. So first of all,
we don't the jury is still out on Black Friday
and Cyber Monday, Giving Tuesday, Wacky Wednesday, and on and
on I couldn't think of anything to begin with.
Speaker 4 (03:24):
Thirsty Thursday.
Speaker 5 (03:26):
Thank you, you say good, You've got to give me
a Friday.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Now, it's Oliver, come on.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Frugal Friday at this point.
Speaker 6 (03:34):
Yeah, okay, So the one to the extent that we
know anything about about Freaky Friday, it's total revenues, total spending.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
Now, the thing is the total amount the people.
Speaker 5 (03:47):
Spend at the store could be driven by buying more stuff,
or it could be driven by buying the same amount
of stuff but paying more, or it could be driven
by buying less stuff and paying a lot more. Given
that the there's a lot of tariffs running around and
a lot of reasons to worry the prices are going up,
and a bit of anecdotal evidence that Black Friday was
(04:08):
not the great deal that it was. I'm not convinced
by anything so far. And then i want to step
back one step further, which is, even if you told
me we bought more on Black Friday, I'm not yet
willing to call that evidence of a strong economy, because
in a weak economy, shopping for bargains is even more important.
And so it could be that what constuers do is
(04:29):
they move from Christmas Eve shopping when it's expensive to
getting the best bargains they can on Black Friday. So
I think we're gonna have to wait for the entire
holiday seasons behind us to figure out where things are at.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
That's I have to say. I put something in my
cart the other day online and I have never gotten
more messages from a retailer than them. They said, you've
got to buy this. You've got about it like you relax.
I will buy it when I want to. Mary sansays,
how do things look from where you are there in
Kansas City?
Speaker 7 (05:00):
Very much a little bit the same. I mean it
depends on who you speak with.
Speaker 8 (05:04):
You know, the.
Speaker 7 (05:04):
Economy is just so it's so personal and when you know,
I'll be really interested to hear what the callers have
to say about, you know, how they feel about their
own personal finances. You know, we're an area that has,
you know, no one main driver of our economy.
Speaker 9 (05:22):
You know, we're a bystate Kansas and Missouri. We're huge.
Speaker 7 (05:25):
We're about I think number eight in terms of being
a federal employer. So some of the DOGE layoffs and
all the uncertainty there has got a lot of people
kind of up in arms, and you know, there's a
lot of trickle down effect of that we've had. You know,
there's a new Panasonic battery giant facility on the Kansas side,
(05:48):
and they had a bit of a roll back in
how full on that they will be as a factory
because of there were some of the downturns in buying
of EV cars.
Speaker 9 (06:00):
So there's it's just uncertainty.
Speaker 7 (06:02):
I think, even if you are someone who perhaps is
a little bit you know, more secure financially, there's just
kind of that pall over things which I would think
will impact everything, giving you know.
Speaker 9 (06:14):
How much you buy, what you buy, all of that.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Well, and justin would you say right now that the
tariffs are the number one sort of impact point on
the economy and how much are they affecting the state
of things?
Speaker 4 (06:30):
I think it's actually very hard to tell.
Speaker 5 (06:33):
So some amount of what's going on with the tariffs
is they were so uncertain for so long. It literally
took the administration until a couple of months ago to
finally actually settle on what it was they were going
to do. Of course, they changed them again the next weekend,
but they're sort of as settled as they're going to be,
which is to say they're going to change all the time.
So they haven't been with us that long. A lot
of businesses didn't immediately pass them on as higher costs,
(06:54):
and so we're in the midst of a transition. A
simple rule of thumb is if something's not expected to
affect your costs for long, then you don't change your
retail prices.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
But if you expect them to hang around, then you do.
Speaker 5 (07:06):
And Tariff's only recently moved from temporary to feeling kind
of permanent. So we're not all the way there yet.
There's a second thing going on that I think is
very second and a third. The second thing is uncertainty,
and uncertainly I think it's at the heart of some
of what Mary was reflecting, that people individually feel somewhat
ill at ease, and so when you look at consumer
(07:28):
confidence and surveys of how people feel, they feel wildly
queasy right now. And the third thing that I don't
think we've spent enough time talking about is something that
we don't normally talk about as economists, which is, you know,
we talk about monetary shocks and fiscal shocks. I've got
a whole new one for you a competence shock, that
(07:50):
there is either a profound problem of competence at the
head of the administration or alternatively, a crisis of confidence
in the cot of the administration. This is an administration.
It took ten months to discover that the US doesn't
grow bananas, and that if we tariff bananas that we
won't onshore banana factories.
Speaker 2 (08:12):
Because Trump just to explain to our audience that Trump
just reversed the tariffs on bananas and coffee and beef
to kind of try to bring those prices down.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
Yes, thank you for that, Jeremy.
Speaker 5 (08:23):
And the thing is, my thirteen year old son, who
hasn't yet studied economics, already understood the folly of a
banana tariff. And it's not just bananas, by the way,
it's that things are. Bananas might be something of a metaphor,
but things like at tax on the Federal Reserve, or
firing the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics for
(08:45):
reporting the truth which happened to be an unpleasant truth,
or the CEO of Intel walking into the White House
and walking out without having left ten percent of his
company behind accidentally, or the approach that you now need
to bring a gift whenever you want to see a present.
These are all things that are just very very unusual
and I think really are giving people across the country pools.
Speaker 2 (09:08):
Mary. The other thing that's going on that, you know,
if it weren't for all of these other things, would
probably be the thing we were talking about and its
impact on the economy is the immigration crackdown, which has
had an effect across the country on so many industries.
How is that having an effect on our economy do
you think, Mary Sanchez?
Speaker 7 (09:27):
The first thing that you'd probably look at would be
the farmies. You know, farmers that they can't get enough
of their labors. You know, we've had several migrant streams
come through and a lot of trepidation with the people
of just even trying to fulfill those roles of working
in fields there threatened.
Speaker 9 (09:45):
You're literally out in the open.
Speaker 7 (09:47):
You're going to start seeing it in all sorts of manufacturing.
It's just that the fear so many families are mixed status,
where you'll have someone who is documented and someone who
is and well, if one of your wager earners is undocumented,
if they are taken out of the labor force, the
impact on that family is huge, and it's just again
(10:10):
it's with everything like economics.
Speaker 9 (10:12):
It's a ripple effect.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
You see.
Speaker 7 (10:13):
You start seeing that in schools, in communities where there's
a lot of fear. Some of the students have wanted
to go on what we're doing right now? Can I
just learn by zoom that they're either fearful to leave
a parent at home who might be undocumented, or they're
fearful of the fearful themselves.
Speaker 9 (10:33):
So it's just you know, you're going to see it
at a lot of different levels. You may not.
Speaker 7 (10:38):
It kind of depends because immigrants are highly concentrated in
some areas at more of a you know, what they
would call a lower manual labor. But then you've also
got now the hits on the H one b's, which
is a college educated person, and that's going to hit
in a lot of other different sectors as some of
those changes are going to roll out, where they're making
(11:00):
it harder and harder for people to come. For people
to it already was a problem. I mean, you always
hear about all the problems we have backlogs.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Well, I want to remind our listeners you can reach
us at eight four four four Middle, that's eight four
four four six four three three five three. Tolliver, we
mentioned the tariffs as one of the main economic headwinds
right now.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
Yeah, remember when Trump put them into effect back in April,
he called it Liberation Day. In the White House, Press
Secretary Carolyn Levitt told News Nation that the tariffs would
not be painful for Americans.
Speaker 10 (11:35):
As for prices, in what the American public can expect,
they can expect price stability, they can expect to buy
American it's a patriotic thing to do. And most importantly,
they can expect their way just to go up.
Speaker 7 (11:48):
This won't be painful at all for American people and consumers.
Speaker 10 (11:52):
Caroline, it's going to be There's not going to be
any pain for American owned companies and American workers because
their jobs are going to come back home.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
And by the way, Tolliver, we have not seen manufacturing
jobs come back. In fact, the latest jobs report showed
another drop in manufacturing. Color surprised in this country. Right
back with your calls coming up on the middle, this
is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. If you're just tuning
in the Middle is a national call in show. We're
focused on elevating voices from the middle, geographically, politically, philosophically,
(12:22):
or maybe you just want to meet in the middle.
This hour, we're asking what the state of your economy is? Tolliver,
what is the number to call in?
Speaker 1 (12:29):
It's eight four four four Middle. That's eight four four
four six four three three five three. You can also
write to us at Listen to the Middle dot com
or on social media and I'll try to get your
comments on air.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
I'm joined by Tributning Content Agency columnist Mary Sanchez and
University of Michigan economist Justin Wolfers. And the phone lines
are lighting up, So let's get to Nathan, who is
calling in from Tampa, Florida. Nathan, what is the state
of your economy?
Speaker 11 (12:55):
How do you doing? As I said before, I've recently
gotten you accident, had to buy a new car. I
was smart than me. I decided not to buy a
new car. Decided to buy a car.
Speaker 12 (13:08):
Uh uh that that I could I wouldn't have to
make payments on because when I.
Speaker 11 (13:14):
Got back on my feet, I do I do gigwork.
Speaker 12 (13:19):
So when I got back on my feet, everything held
to us like a snail's pace.
Speaker 11 (13:24):
Like I normally I've been listening a lot of our
conversations because you guys are like my like my office mates.
When I go out and I drive, I hear you
guys talking.
Speaker 12 (13:34):
But on the on the bright side, I got to
play a lot of Final Fantasy Tactics. Uh, finally got
around to play into video games.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
But so you're you're a gig worker, but you got
into a car accident?
Speaker 13 (13:47):
Are you?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Are you some who like did you drive like for
Uber has? I mean, have you been able to do
your work right now?
Speaker 11 (13:53):
I'm doing door Dash and my other gig job as
a security guy at Raymond James. Uh, good Bucks. But
you know something else.
Speaker 12 (14:07):
Is that that I think for a long, long, long
time we've been relying.
Speaker 11 (14:11):
On the the stock tickers as a metrics of the
health of our economy, and and it's just it's too
much of a fallacy to really look at that and
think about how are the people of the economy are doing.
Speaker 12 (14:31):
I'm sure if they were stock tickers back in the
slavery days, you'd.
Speaker 11 (14:36):
Say everything honky Dori, you know what I mean. But
it's not necessarily I think a sign of good health.
I mean, it can be I'm not going to.
Speaker 12 (14:48):
Be one of those people that are black and white
about it.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
But it's a it's a good point, Nathan, and let
me take that to our guests, Justin Wolfer is a
very good point that, you know, for a gig worker
who cares how the stock market is doing, what do
you make of just the difference between the stock market
and then somebody like Nathan, who is, you know, working
in the gig economy and even just a car accident
(15:12):
can really change things for him economically.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
Right, And so the important point here is that when
we approach what might be a slow down in the economy,
we don't all approach it from a similar point.
Speaker 4 (15:24):
Nathan. It sounds like you're doing a tough mate.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
I'm glad you're doing okay, but you know, I'm sure
that if there is a downturn and door dash starts
to dry up a little, we have to realize, you know,
there's much bigger effects on some folks than others, and
that's intensely painful. Let me come back to the stock market.
I want to make two points on this. The first
is very interesting. The President keeps boasting about the stock
market and I can't tell you the number of interviews
(15:48):
I've done recently where people say, if you're pretty down
on the economy, why does the stock market keep hitting
new hives. I have to remember the US is not
an ireland. We're part of a global economy. And so
one thing I recently did is I calculated the total
gain and stocks for every leading economy between inauguration day
and the present. I did it for the twenty three
(16:09):
largest economies. The United States stock market's up about fifteen
or twenty percent over that period. Much of the rest
of the world is up much much more. Out of
those twenty three countries, guess where we ranked. We were
twenty third, Sorry, we were twentieth out of twenty three countries.
We're ahead of the United States, was ahead of Australia,
New Zealand, and Denmark. And the Danish stock market is
(16:31):
almost entirely Novo Nordisk, which has the weight loss.
Speaker 4 (16:34):
Wonder drug, right, it has gone south recently.
Speaker 5 (16:37):
So, yeah, the stocks are up, but they're up a
whole lot more elsewhere. And then you can go one
step further, which was Nathan's point, which is the stock
market is not the economy. The stock market is the
expected performance of large companies this is an administration that
focuses on existing large companies, and of course they're actually
doing moderately well. They can call the White House whenever
(16:58):
tariffs are getting in the way and get particular exceptions
made for them, But for smaller businesses, they don't have
that line to the White House. And so it's a
style of governing that advantages those parts of the economy
that are on the stock market, and disadvantages the rest
of the economy.
Speaker 2 (17:14):
Right and especially parts of the economy not just on
the stock market, but that are in artificial intelligence and
are just so much of the stock market right now,
Alex is calling in from Houston, Texas. Alex, go ahead
with your thoughts about the state of the economy.
Speaker 14 (17:30):
How are y'all doing, guys? Most day the calm me,
I would say, you're pretty good. I'm not too much
a complaint about I'm in you know, I just think
that most of these companies, big big companies. I think
they keep the price artificially high just because they want profits.
I mean, who are we going to get here?
Speaker 8 (17:49):
Right?
Speaker 14 (17:49):
You're not going to say we're going to keep the
parts of the age, you know, We're not going to
bring them down. No, you want to keep them high
if you're going to make more problems. So personally, I
don't see it as a problem. I just think you
just have to manage your budget well and say and
if you could invest, invest I mean, I want to
look at the stock market as an indicator of how
good we're doing it. It's just people taking advantage of
(18:11):
the market because it's good right now to put your
money in there. But you know, I personally believe that
the market's a balloon. I went and put every all
my eggs in one basket. That's just my opinion, and
I would diverse.
Speaker 2 (18:23):
Can I ask you one question, Alex, let me just
ask you one follow up question, just because the polls
are showing that people on different sides politically see the
economy differently, Can I ask you who did you vote
for in the last presidential election?
Speaker 14 (18:37):
Well, I'm not ashamed to say I vote for Trump.
I mean, you know, you know, if you're going to
base your opinion on what people say all the time, you,
I mean, that's kind of a low indicator. I mean
Obama say that a lot of things. You know, he
came from a very the press economy when he took
over when Bush left, and you know, I give him
(19:01):
a chance, you know, I mean give Trump a chance.
I mean, gosh, you guy's been there a couple of months.
We're still facing lad if you want to call it
like that. I mean, we want to play politics. We
could play politics all day. But I think most of
these companies don't want to lower the prices of just
making good profits right now. I mean that's just my opinion.
I mean, if it was different, you know, if there
was a depression like they said there is, these companies
(19:23):
wouldn't be making money. They wouldn't people want to be
buying inky right now. But you know, you go to
a mall, you go to roachy store, they're packed and
look some of that.
Speaker 2 (19:32):
Some of them are alex. But we've got your point there.
But thank you for the call. I appreciate it. Mary Sanchez.
What do you think of that. I don't want to
say that he's only saying what he's saying because he,
you know, voted for Trump. I just think that's an
interesting point there.
Speaker 7 (19:48):
I think, yeah, I mean I thought it was interesting.
He says, you know, I'm not ashamed of it, and
that right, they'll tells you that some of the messaging
is that you should be ashamed of it, or perhaps
you should be ashamed because you're doing okay. You know
the only thing that I really flag on sometimes and
he did in your caller, Nathan did not do that.
(20:09):
But as when you start deciding who is worthy and
who isn't or who is costing one of the things,
you know, talking about CEOs and companies, it's like who's
in charge? Who is who is the problem of my
pain if I can't afford something? And that's where messaging
I think is absorbed so differently depending on your political view,
(20:32):
which can be tied to your finances.
Speaker 9 (20:35):
If all of your.
Speaker 7 (20:36):
Money is tied up in stocks and the stock market
is doing well, then you're going to be with okay
with whoever you think is in charge of that. If
that's not your reality, you may look elsewhere for someone
to blame about why you're not doing well.
Speaker 5 (20:54):
Can I just add something to you, because as you said,
something so interesting, which is we all worry about high prices,
and you're blaming companies corporate greed, and I hear you.
There's a lovely expression that I think has a lot
of truth to it. Blaming corporations for high prices is
like blaming gravity for a plane crash. At some level,
(21:15):
it's literally true. If there were no gravity, the plane
wouldn't have crashed. If corporate greed didn't exist, the prices
wouldn't be high. But we tend to take gravity as
an eternal constant, and we tend to take companies being
greedy as an eternal constant. So then that raises the
deeper question, given that we always have greedy companies, why
or how is it that right now they're able to
(21:37):
take a bigger chunk out of your paycheck. Then maybe
at some point in the past, and.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
You think that they are taking a bigger chunk out
of our paycheck, then it points in the past. It's
not just like the price of everything is going up
and they're charging a little bit more, but they're you
think they're taking more right now.
Speaker 4 (21:53):
Justin I was trying to meet Alex where he's at.
Speaker 5 (21:56):
We can have long and de conversations about how much
prices right now would you to costs going out versus
profit margins.
Speaker 4 (22:02):
But you know, for those who think.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
It's greed, I agree, it's greed at a literal level,
But there's something even deeper. That allows greed to express
itself more virulently at different points in time.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Yeah, Talliver, I'm he gets you in one second, but
I do. We have a trucker on the line from Youngstown, Ohio,
so let's get to him before we lose him somehow.
Travis is calling in. Travis, tell us about the state
of your economy.
Speaker 8 (22:27):
So currently, the biggest thing I'm noticing is the dollar
just doesn't stretch as much and you spend more get less.
And that goes for across from my hometown Youngstown to
across the country. We've been having to rely more on
even broken loads because our core customers can't even provide
(22:50):
as much anymore because it just seems like there's not
as much of a demand due to price.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I was actually in a car when I was in
Texas a few weeks ago Travis with somebody who's in
the trucking industry, and he said, a lot of these
trucks right now are empty, but they still have to
run because of if you don't run them, then you
don't have a business when it comes back.
Speaker 8 (23:17):
Yep, And that seems to be a lot of the
thing you just have to try to fill in as
much as you can. It's just basically, fortunately the industry
the way it is.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Well, thank you calling in, by the way, where are
you are you in your truck right now? Where are
you calling from?
Speaker 8 (23:35):
I'm in my truck heading into Chicago right.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Now, all right, Travis, thank you very much for the
call justin. You know, that's a that's an interesting part
of our economy too. Somebody who travels the entire country
and gets to see how things are in different places,
and they could be very different from place to place
around the United States.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Yeah, like what a life Travis has.
Speaker 5 (23:56):
And thanks for getting my vegis to me and all
the goods that I need. Travis says this other long
term thing. He probably doesn't need me to tell him,
but his way of life is under threat. Driverless trucking
is not very far away, and so even as he's
trying to make his paycheck stretch a little further, my
(24:17):
guess he's worried about what's going to happen five or
ten years down the line.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Well, and Tolliver, you know there's an AIDJ on Spotify stuff.
That's a perfect segue ticket back to you. You can
pay me less than him it's fine, Well, what's coming
in online? That's something that AIDJ can't tell us.
Speaker 1 (24:34):
Right, Sandra says, the state of my financial picture is
shaky at best. My internet provider is increasing by one
hundred and twenty dollars a year, and my insurance provider
has reduced how far my Medicare dollars will go in
twenty twenty six. Bottom line, I'm afraid of the future
and only my trust in God gives me hope. And
then Johannas and Florida said, DIMS have been willing to
abandon the New Deal and move right to meet the
GOP halfway for decades, forcing the GOP to move further right.
(24:57):
Now that Mom Donnie has put affordability on the map,
are claiming it as well. Will DIMS move further right
with a twenty dollars federal minium wage, an elimination of
the tipped minimum wage, or Medicare for all, or a
green New Deal? Spoiler alert, No, DIMS are weak, Spicy Mary.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
An interesting point there, just about affordability, because we just
had another election this week in the state of Tennessee,
where affordability was the key issue, just like it was
in New York. City, just like it was in Virginia,
just like it was in New Jersey. Voters care about it.
Do you see it impacting the politics? I mean President
Trump has said all along that this is all about
(25:35):
the Fed not lowering interest rates fast enough. But do
you think that these elections are going to affect the
way that the economy is handled going forward this year,
next year.
Speaker 7 (25:46):
I think it's going to take longer than that, because
if you really look at everything that impacts the economy,
you know, as Justin would be able to explain far
better than I.
Speaker 9 (25:56):
It's so many factors.
Speaker 7 (25:58):
It's not like if you just put one per and
in the White House the economy is going to completely
turn over and that we're going to suddenly have manufacturing,
particularly if you've the cost of metals to build all
those factory plants has been messed up through tariffs. It's
just it's so convoluted. I don't think I think it
may impact how people vote. It may not impact the
(26:21):
outcome that they believe. What I hear a lot in
that caller, though, is just the idea of you know,
Democrats and Republicans not working together. People know that their
government is not working well.
Speaker 9 (26:34):
They might not be.
Speaker 7 (26:35):
Able to fully go into well, here is how this
tax subsidy, this is here is how this was done
over a period of thirty years that influenced a certain
type of development and not others. They may not be
able to unravel all of that to figure out some
of these deeper things, but they know it when they hurt,
they know it when they feel insecure.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Let's go to Alexander, who's calling in from Denver, Colorado.
Speaker 12 (27:02):
Alexandra, go ahead with your thoughts about the state of
the economy.
Speaker 15 (27:07):
Yes, so, thank you so much for taking my call.
I'm so thrilled to be on your show. And you
know very quickly, I am very concerned about the middle
and lower class and the idea that people of wealth
just keep getting wealthier, and the system very much seems
designed to help the people in who already have wealth
(27:27):
get more wealth. But my question for you has to
do with with the inflation, because the prices don't come down.
It seems like we talk about the rate of inflation
coming down, but the actual prices never come down. So
once the house costs eight hundred thousand dollars, it's not
going down back down to five hundred thousand dollars, and
(27:48):
I do see that changing.
Speaker 11 (27:50):
And how does that like?
Speaker 15 (27:52):
Is there something because frankly, the Republicans seem to support
the get wealthy wealthier and seem to support something around affordability,
But how do we actually have deflation in a way
that's productive for all of us who who are trying
to survive?
Speaker 2 (28:12):
Now, Alexander, we don't want deflation, justin Wolfer's we don't
want the prices to start going down, but we do
want people to make enough money that they can afford
the higher prices. Are we ever going to get to
a point where that is the case?
Speaker 4 (28:27):
Right?
Speaker 5 (28:28):
So it's time that we have a mature, serious and
responsible discussion about this. And the problem is that the
President lied to the American people and he's pushed us
down an absolutely absurd road. Here's a reality of healthy
modern economies. They all have some degree of inflation on average.
What you want is inflation to be low enough that
you can fairly notice it and you you don't have
(28:50):
to keep worrying about it every day. The Fed thinks
that means inflation a round about two percent. So usually
if we had a good, serious economic to buy in
this country, we would be talking about how do we
lower inflation, what is the right rate of inflation, what
should we do about inflation?
Speaker 4 (29:07):
Things like that.
Speaker 5 (29:08):
The problem is the President promised to bring prices down.
The only tool he has to do that would be
by crushing the economy. It's a profoundly bad idea. Worse
than that, if prices are falling, what are you and
I going to do? Am I going to go and
buy that new TV this week knowing it's going to
be even cheaper next week?
Speaker 4 (29:28):
It creates a lot of problems. So let's be serious.
Speaker 5 (29:31):
The way we make up for inflation, these people get
wage rises, don't wait around and don't chief a price
is to come down.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
It would be deeply irresponsible.
Speaker 2 (29:40):
Well, and as we said Tolliver, President Trump has called
affordability a con job by the Democrats. But Marjorie Taylor Green,
who until recently had been a strong supporter of the President, disagrees.
Speaker 8 (29:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
She says, the Republicans ignore the cost of living issues
at their own peril. Here she is on.
Speaker 16 (29:57):
CNN, Inflation crush people in the past four and a
half years, and the costs have not come down. I
myself can tell you my apartment here in Washington, d C.
The electricity bills one hundred dollars more than it was
last year. Because you can look at your own bill
and look at at cost. Prices have not come down.
That that is a reality. People's wages have not gone up.
(30:21):
That's another reality. And so Americans are continuing to have
a very difficult time getting by.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
And as you know, Margine hither Green says she is
resigning from Congress in January. They always get really honest
right before they result leave.
Speaker 4 (30:37):
Yeah, that's what happens.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
We'll be right back with your calls on the Middle.
This is the Middle. I'm Jeremy Hobson. This hour, we're
taking your calls on the State of your Economy with
columnist Mary Sanchez and economist Justin Wolfers. You can call
in at eight four four four Middle. That's a four
four four six four three three five three. You can
reach out at Listen to the Middle dot com. And
let's get right back to the phones because the lines
are full. Monicas calling from Philadelphia, Monica, go ahead, what's
(31:02):
the state of your economy?
Speaker 5 (31:05):
Hi?
Speaker 17 (31:05):
Thank you so at least in Philadelphia, and I know
it's pretty much nationwide. The cost of food for the
average family, and I'm a single mom with two boys,
has gone up so much in the last three months
that my budget for each month has gone from food
being maybe around maybe like a quarter to a third.
(31:30):
Now it's up to half. It's not more of that
is how profound that impact has been and how huge
the food inflation has been on the average every day
America like me, and what.
Speaker 11 (31:46):
Are you doing about that?
Speaker 2 (31:47):
Or what do you want to be done about that? Monica?
Speaker 17 (31:51):
Right? So things that I do, right, of course, I'll
try to shop where I can get economies of scale
right by by bulk right look for sale story, all
that stuff. But the much larger picture is this is
not sustainable for America to continue to survive. So the
legislators at the state ideally at the federal level, but
(32:15):
we're not going to be seeing that happen. But at
least at the state level, you need to put something
in place for like the staples, things like you know,
milk eggs, remember that went up to like six seven
dollars for a dozen, right, things like that, some type
of legislation that's designed, you know, to counteract what's going on, Monica.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Thank you very much for the other point.
Speaker 17 (32:42):
Was that my other point was that the average Americans
should not have to rely on how the stock mark
is doing for our for our retirement. But because most
companies no longer also instance, right, then we are forced
to have to play that game.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
Right, everybody's got there there four one ks now as
their pension. Thank you very much for that, Monica and
Mary Sancha a lot there. But I just couldn't help
but think as Monica was talking about that, that it
was about a month ago that food stamp snap benefits
were cut off for people because of the government shut down.
That's exactly what Monica is basically saying is there should
(33:26):
be something to help people get the staples. That's what
that is for.
Speaker 9 (33:31):
That is what that was for.
Speaker 7 (33:33):
But that gets into those whole arguments about who is
working hard enough, who is worthy.
Speaker 9 (33:39):
Of being helped, who actually needs.
Speaker 7 (33:42):
And deserves help, And that's that's where we do get
into these you know, political decisions and policy making. One
of the things this is kind of probably maybe ining
Justine's area could probably say it better, but I think,
you know, the idea that the cost of food is
going up so much. I do think there is some
(34:04):
data that shows that it's up higher this year, at
a higher percentage than it was before. But it is
it's always going to be rising.
Speaker 9 (34:12):
Costs rise.
Speaker 7 (34:13):
I don't expect to pay what my mother paid for
some things.
Speaker 9 (34:20):
I just don't. But my wages have not gone up
enough for sure, because I'm in journalism.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
To be able to counteract some of that well, and
justin you know, it's interesting we're hearing about food this
hour and not gas prices, which actually are I mean,
of course we remember when they were cheaper than what
they are now, but they're relatively less expensive than they
have been in recent years. It's around two ninety nine
I think on average nationally for a gallon of gas.
(34:50):
But people are noticing the food prices more right now.
Speaker 5 (34:54):
Yes, I guess is about three bucks a gallon, which
is about the average over the past six years. So
nothing to celebrate, nothing to commiserate. Just it is what
it is. Look, I can never speak to a single
mum like Monica without saying thank you. I'm the son
of a single mum myself, and you're doing amazing stuff there, mate.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
Food prices have gone up.
Speaker 5 (35:15):
Probably it feels, Monica like you might be on the
really sharp end of it, I don't think they've gone
up that much across the country. Your experience may well
be different, and it probably depends how much we eat beef,
which is particularly expensive at the moment. Fortunately, my family's vegetarian,
so we've avoided all of that. But as you look forward,
I do worry about what's going to happen in the
(35:37):
working in middle class Americans. Tariffs take a bigger bite
out of the budget of working class than rich Americans,
because working class folks spend more. The Big Beautiful Bill
from President Trump is the largest redistribution from porter rich
in a single bill in American history, and next year
we're looking at potentially millions of people being cut off
(35:58):
Medicaid as well as everything that's going on with health
insurance costs.
Speaker 4 (36:03):
So this is one of those cases.
Speaker 5 (36:05):
Where it is really important to do what you're doing, Jeremy,
talking to people around the country, because the averages, which
is what GDP tells us about, are pretty healthy, But
those averages are telling us are hiding the reality that
a lot of working middle class folks are going to
be doing without as there has been a big redistribution
to the rich.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Well and we haven't gotten the government data that we
usually get because of the government shutdown, a lot of
it has been delayed. Let's get to another caller. Sarah
is calling in from Birmingham, Alabama. Hi, Sarah, go ahead
with your thoughts on the economy.
Speaker 11 (36:41):
Hi.
Speaker 18 (36:42):
So, I'm a graduate student and we have a fixed
income at least for five years, and on top of that,
we aren't allowed to have another job. We're paid once
a month. So it's just been kind of hard trying
to budget, as you know, being on the brink of
society as a graduate student. So my question is, do
(37:05):
you have any advice of where to cut back the
most and you know how to predict these unpredictable costs?
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (37:18):
Interesting question, Sarah, Mary, I guess do you have any
advice for Sarah? Where can she cut back?
Speaker 11 (37:25):
Wow?
Speaker 7 (37:25):
See, that is so it's so personal, you know, and
what people spend money on.
Speaker 9 (37:31):
Is so personal. She didn't mention food.
Speaker 7 (37:34):
It's interesting to me that we're speaking of food so
much because to me, that tells more of the dire state.
Speaker 9 (37:42):
That's basic. That's like Maslow, you know, if.
Speaker 7 (37:45):
You can't afford to have the roof over your head
or to feed your children. I don't know, and I
didn't hear enough from the graduate student to know, you
know how you would and frankly for anyone, even an
outside her, to make some judgments about what money they
have and where they're putting it. You know, is their
car too nice by somebody's standards?
Speaker 9 (38:08):
Yeah, you know.
Speaker 7 (38:09):
I only recently ended up with a car payment, and
I absolutely hate it because I went more than twenty
years without one, and I view that as like this
horribly negative thing that I've done, even.
Speaker 9 (38:21):
Though I like my car and I bought it used.
Speaker 7 (38:24):
So again, I think that almost and this is how
this plays out in society is how you start judging
people of who isn't managing their money? Well, you know,
who is to blame for the fact that she needs
to figure this out. But it sounds like she's trapped
in a certain dynamic of where she can't take another
(38:45):
job and probably still get the graduate degree.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Well, and we just did a show a couple of
weeks ago about whether people are worried that artificial intelligence
is going to take their job. And as we heard
one person after another call in and say they were
worried or it already has taken their job. I'm thinking
to myself, this is nobody's fault, not a single one
of these people, you know, who went through their whole
you know, and preparation and career, preparing for something. It's
(39:12):
not their fault that artificial intelligence has come along and
made it cheaper for a company to do it that way.
But anyway, a lot there. Let's get to Frank, who's
in Plano, Texas and has been on the line. Frank,
what about you, what's the state of your economy?
Speaker 19 (39:28):
Well, first of all, for the record, the last three elections,
I didn't go for either Democrat or Republican, voted for
the another party third party. But my personal economy is
I have a legacy. We are living on the legacy
(39:49):
of four generations of people who have left us.
Speaker 11 (39:54):
Enough.
Speaker 19 (39:55):
Now what am I doing in terms of my spending
cutting back on my travel expenses even though we have
children live out of the country, and also cutting down
on potential spending on other things that we want to
do with our life. But the point is legacy. There
(40:17):
are so many people who don't have the leg I'm privileged.
I'm going to say that I'm privileged. I have the
legacy and there's so many people. Let's take Tulsa, Oklahoma
for example, what would be the legacy of those descendants
of those people if they had had their continued work.
So again, we're not going to solve the problem on
(40:38):
this show, you know that, But I do believe that
there's so much that has to be done to correct
the legacy issues of people in dire situations today.
Speaker 2 (40:50):
Yeah, a lot of people inherited money and a lot
of people did not inherit any money.
Speaker 5 (40:58):
Justin your thoughts, I just want to add one of
the most important things that the next generation may inherit
is a well functioning economy. If we hand off the richest,
most productive economy in the world, that's given them plenty
to make their start, even if they don't come up
with inheritance. And so then the question is are we
(41:18):
doing what we need to do to hand off a
well functioning economy to the next generation. That then leads
to these sort of deeper questions, what is it that
drives American prosperity? And are we preserving those institutions that
drive American prosperity? And so at the moment, it's ironic
that we have a conservative government conservative in name, but
(41:40):
actually radical in approach. And so maybe they're right and
maybe they're fixing everything, or maybe they're wrong and maybe
they're destroying everything. But either way, the next generation are
the ones who are going to discover what it was
they were left.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
Yeah, an interesting point that it's not about necessarily being
left something physical, but being left an economy that allows
them to have opportunity. Chico is calling in from Asheville,
North Carolina. Hi, Chico, go ahead with your thoughts about
the state of the economy.
Speaker 13 (42:11):
Oh well, well, yeah, I mean as far as the
initial question, the state of my economy. I work. I
used to be a school teacher years ago. I can't
imagine being able to do that today. I have so
much respect for them. I have what I consider a
very good job. It's a solid job. I work for
a manufacturing company in town. Right, So I actually work
(42:32):
in a manufacturing facility in the state. And it's good. Right,
My economy is good. I have two adult children that
I have just I'm really worried about them, right, Like,
what kind of economy are they going to have? What
are they going to be able to do in the
near future here, So that's probably my biggest concern.
Speaker 2 (42:53):
And so Chico, I'm just let me just ask you,
you're not bothered by, for example, some of the things
we've heard about this how food that's more expensive? You
can you're able to weather that week with your salary.
Speaker 13 (43:04):
Yeah, I definitely feel I'm lucky enough that well, I'm
conscious of those things, those expenses going up, It's not
anything that has impacted me yet severely, Right, do I
say as much as I would like to? Probably not,
But you know, I think I could probably cut more here,
and you're going to do that, So I feel like
(43:25):
it's pretty good. There's concerned the working per manufacturing company
like this though, and with the tariffs and with things
like that, it's very difficult for to plan for profit
and planning and things like that for the future when
it just seems so chaotic at this point. Right, So
that is probably a big challenge, particularly when I when
(43:46):
I look at my own my job.
Speaker 2 (43:48):
Yeah, uh, Chico, thank you very much for that. Let
me get to another caller here. Roger is in Grantsburg, Wisconsin. Roger,
what about the state of your economy.
Speaker 20 (43:59):
Well, my economy's kind of tightened. Everything around here has
gone up and we're fixing here for to me, like
probably the coldest winter here in a long long time.
We've been pretty lucky, you know, and that's starting off here.
Tomorrow's my birthday, it's seventh fifth, and wow, we're already freezing,
you know. I dealt with frozen wat for two days.
(44:19):
Oh boy, real.
Speaker 11 (44:23):
It cover.
Speaker 4 (44:26):
Well.
Speaker 2 (44:26):
And you're worried about the cold because because it's going
to be more expensive for you to heat your home
all be Oh.
Speaker 20 (44:33):
Yes, I just build my tank and my propane tank,
and I was We was dollars forty nine nine a gallon,
so five hundred and thirty four bucks to go up.
And that's good for rebe a month, you know. If
it's really really cold, it'll be about a month and a half.
Sixty days usually for a tank, is what I figured out.
So there's another five hundred of me. That'd be a
(44:53):
fifteen hundred dollars winter for heating, you know. And that's
it's only heat I have. I don't have any alternative.
Speaker 15 (44:59):
We're what I can do.
Speaker 19 (45:01):
I've thought about it.
Speaker 20 (45:02):
I live in a mobile home and that's that's.
Speaker 11 (45:03):
What we got.
Speaker 8 (45:05):
Other than plastic and hey.
Speaker 20 (45:07):
Bales looks like kind of hillbilly but it works, you know.
Speaker 2 (45:10):
But but you sound like you've got a good attitude
about it, Roger. You sound like you're gonna you're you're
gonna figure it out.
Speaker 20 (45:17):
Well, it's kind of one of these things where you
gotta be you just gotta like, you know, you gotta
ensure endeavor to persevere. No, that's yeah, yeah, pull that
line from Joe Old Joelsey Wales.
Speaker 2 (45:33):
Well, I so appreciate your call, Roger, thank you so
much for that.
Speaker 11 (45:36):
We do.
Speaker 2 (45:39):
I think, yeah, he definitely should be a regular. But Mary, uh,
you know you hear that he's living in a mobile home.
He's worried about the cost of heating. Uh, but he's
got that that attitude too.
Speaker 7 (45:52):
That's interesting, that's well, that's very American, and it's very human.
I mean, humans are inherently resilient. It is a amazing
what we can overcome. I think when you talk about
government and structures and systems of society, how can how
can those things help?
Speaker 9 (46:10):
What is just inherently human? You know, we're resilient.
Speaker 7 (46:14):
We want to provide for our families, we want to
do better, we want to move forward.
Speaker 9 (46:18):
I think most people are good in kind, Most.
Speaker 7 (46:20):
People will help other people when they see need, but
they're more likely to do it when they have something
to give, you know, if they if it's okay for
them to skim a little off of their own budget,
to hell about someone else. So to me, that's, you know,
how do we build that society? A couple of people
have mentioned the middle class. You know, I can't even
(46:42):
I don't know what the exact numbers are right now,
But as long as you don't have a strong middle class,
you don't have a working population. You want that strong
middle class that really moves things along.
Speaker 9 (46:55):
Entrepreneurs, small business.
Speaker 2 (46:59):
Well let me we've actually run out of time this hour,
but I want to bring the last question here to
Justin because it gets to some of the things that
have come up in the course of this hour, and
that is uncertainty about the future and so many people
not knowing what the future holds and therefore what they
should do. So, as the economist here at Justin, what
would be your advice to people right now? Is it
(47:21):
a moment to hang tight on a big financial decision
like buying a new car or buying a new house,
or doing or moving or taking a new job, or
should or should you just go for it and hope
for the best.
Speaker 5 (47:34):
The problem with the macro economy, which is what we're
talking about, is that it's three hundred and forty million stories,
each of which are different, and so I can't tell
everyone everything. So what I wanted to do, Jeremy, was
totally ignore your question, yeah, and come back and say
we've done a little bit too much public radio doomerism.
We've talked about how everything's hot, So let me just
(47:55):
put this in context, because you hear lots of different
things about the economy, and just just thinking about how
to sort these facts out I think is really important.
Speaker 4 (48:03):
So I want to throw a couple of facts out there.
Speaker 5 (48:05):
First, one is twenty twenty five will be the richest
year in all of humanity. Second, the United States is
the richest large economy in the world. Therefore, third, we
are all right now in the richest country in the
(48:26):
history of the world.
Speaker 4 (48:27):
Right, So it's not all doom Now. That's one set
of facts, and they're all true.
Speaker 5 (48:34):
We still have a vibrant economic debate, and I've said
a bunch of times tonight I think there's things we're
doing wrong, and that's because the point of our debate
is not about how great we are or aren't doing.
It's about whether we're falling short of our potential. So
if we're falling short at all, there's a lot to
talk about, because even if we're doing great, if we
could do extraordinary, that's worth it.
Speaker 4 (48:56):
And so yes we're optimistic.
Speaker 5 (48:58):
Well sorry, yes things are going pretty well, but yes
we could do even better.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
That is Justin Wolfer's an economist at the University of Michigan.
We've also been speaking with Mary Sanchez, a calmnist with
a Tribune content agency. Thanks so much to both of
you for joining us.
Speaker 4 (49:12):
Pleasure.
Speaker 2 (49:13):
Thank you, And next week, Taliver, we're gonna be asking
if going green matters to you, things like buying an
electric vehicle, cutting down on emissions, putting solar panels on
your house. We'll be asking about that. You can go
to Listen to the Middle dot com to join us,
or call eight four four four six four three three
five three. That's it for us. I'm Jeremy Hobson. I
(49:33):
will talk to you next week.
Host
Jeremy Hobson
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