October 22, 2025 • 42 mins
Former White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre discusses her new book, “Independent,” and explains her surprising decision to leave the Democratic Party, after being part of it at the highest levels for more than twenty years.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ola.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
I'm Corcarramos, and this is the moment I'm really looking
forward to the next interview here in Washington, DC.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
So we came to Washington, DC to talk to Karine
Jean Pierre. And so Karine Jean Pierre was President Joe
Biden's last press secretary. She's releasing a book this week
that I think is going to be pretty controversial because
her book is titled Independent, A Look Inside a Broken
White House Outside the Party Lines. Now it's controversial, I
(00:37):
think because this is someone that has worked for the
Democratic Party her entire life. I mean, she's been a
Democrat for twenty years, she worked for President.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Obama, and she's breaking with the party.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Now she's breaking with the party.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, So I'm interested on because of other reasons. She
was the first black, the first immigrant, the first queer
woman ever to represent the President of the United States
as a spokesperson. And only not only that, her job
was precise lead to answer the most difficult question.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Here's the question that we wanted to answer. So let's
try and do that. We want to understand if being
an independent is the way to defeat trump Ism. In
twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Five, cutting Jumpierre when we come back.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So welcome to the moment.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Thank you, thank you all the moment is this is
so perfect. We are living in a moment, so thank
you so much for having me. Congratulations. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
We were saying that in a few years from now,
people will be asking us, what do you do during
those years? No, and we have an answer with journalists.
But I think you have an answer with your book.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think maybe twenty ten years
ago the answer was a Democratic Party for you, right,
I mean you, oh yeah. This essentially devoted so much
of your career to that party. You worked in presidential campaigns,
you worked for President Obama. Of course, you served as
President Biden's press secretary. And here you are with a
new book that's titled Independent Look In Study, Broken White House,
(01:58):
Outside the Party Lines. Yeah, the book essentially, which it's fantastic,
it's eye opening you.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
That means a lot. It's coming from the both of you.
That means a thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And I think it's it's eye opening because you're essentially
urging Americans and voters to question party lines and to
even question their loyalty to the Democratic Party. And perhaps
what you're saying is that that in and of itself
helps us in this quest to fight for democracy. So
that's kind of where I want to start, and understanding
(02:28):
what inside this Biden white House and what about those
four years in the Biden administration? How did that inform
your decision to leave the Democratic Party and to do
it in such a public way.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah, so a couple of things. So this thought process
of mine of becoming independent has been a long time coming,
if you will, I think if you watch my career,
you would say, oh, she's always been independent. I don't
think you become the first of something or break a
glass ceiling without having your own kind of independent way
(02:59):
of thinking, your own compass, right. A lot of this
is about your compass, and so it's been a long
time coming. Obviously. In the book, I talk about a
specific moment those three weeks during the president President Biden's
debate to how we got to the nomination of twenty
twenty four, and I was very disappointed by the way
the party behaved, especially in a moment when talk about
(03:23):
the moment, in a moment where everything was at stake,
and what I mean by that is, if you looked
at what the other party was doing, they were behind
their guy. However, however they saw him. They were behind
a felon, someone who is accused of being a ray.
All of the things, they all lined up behind him.
Project twenty twenty five, they all lined up behind that,
(03:45):
and we just couldn't get it together when people's lives
were at risk at stake. And look, the President's going
to write his own book. He's going to talk about
that moment in his way. Yes, he's supposed to be
writing a book. They've announced that. And I don't know
what's going to be President Biden, y as President Biden,
And I don't want to speak for him obviously that
in that regard, and for me it was it was
(04:08):
as one of the only people that was speaking during
that time, I thought to myself, what is happening like
we are in a real existential threat. What is happening
right now? And then when he finally did decide, when
he made his decision and he decided he was going
to hand over the reins, people within the party were
wanting to make it difficult for her as a historic first,
(04:30):
as a historic figure, Kamala Harris probably should be more specific.
Thank you so much. That's why you're a journalist. But
you know, they were talking about broken convention. They were
talking about, you know, oh, we should, we should really
open this up. And I'm thinking to myself, no, we
don't have a lot of time here, like, we just don't.
This is not the time. And so there were a
lot of thought processes that obviously went to that space.
(04:53):
And now you fast forward to January twenty one, twenty
twenty five, and everywhere where I was going, people were
coming up to me and there was a huge disappointment
in the Democratic Party. There was a huge disappointment in
the leadership. People were saying the Democratic Party had lost
their soul. And my thinking then was again Project twenty five.
(05:18):
The Republican Party was very clear, very clear about what
they were going to do. They're just taking it off.
More than forty percent of it is done. They weren't
hiding it. So why wasn't the Democratic Party ready? Why
why they rubber stamping his nominees to Donald Trump's nominees.
Why is that happening. There's a protest that's happening this Saturday.
(05:41):
Why is the Democratic Party not holding protests? Why are
we only hearing from outside groups?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, that's why you became independent.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
That's why, Well, it's a long thinking process. But the
reason I decided to write this book, and the reason
I've decided to be very clear about where I am
and where I stand is because I wanted to start
this conversation. Is because I felt as if if I
make this statement, then hopefully it opens up a space
to have a conversation about the party. We need a
(06:11):
two party system in order for democracy to function. That
is correct. And I'm not saying we need I'm not
saying I want to form a third party. I am
saying and it's very very nuanced, and I try to
lay it out in the book. I am saying that
we need to be independent voices and question and push
people who are powerful.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But it is the right time to be independent, to
tell your story because some people might think by doing that,
you're dividing the party more than ever.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
And I like that question.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Look, I love that question, But then when is the time, Like, so,
when is the time to do it? There's never going
to be a right time. And I actually, I actually
truly believe when you're in a situation like this, it
is important, especially when you're the party that's out of power.
To start reimagining, rethinking how we move forward as a country.
(07:04):
And what is happening is the people who have the power,
democratic leadership, who have the power, are acting and behaving
as if they don't have power. When people are questioning
democracy and are skeptical about democracy, that's dangerous because in
order to have it, you need to be practicing it
every single day.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
So this is the right time for you to tell
the story. I just think even if the party might
hurt by.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Not doing that, I don't think the party will hurt.
That's not I don't see it in that negative.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You're criticizing the party. You're saying the Democratic Party didn't work.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
But this is a democracy. This is a democracy. And
by the way, I'm a private citizen. I'm a private
citizen right now, right so living work. I mean, I
know we're headed to an authoritarian regime here, but I
have the right as a private citizen to be critical.
I have a right as a private, private citizen to
(07:57):
question authority. That is one of the reasons both of
my parents are from Haiti. They grew up in a dictatorship.
That's the reason they came to this country in the
hopes so that their kids could have a voice. So
that is like my my given right as a citizen
of this country to criticize.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And it's you could have done it from within when
you were part of the party. Maybe that's the question
you're doing it.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I mean, look, but look, when I was part of
the party, I was speaking for the president and for
the party right, and so I was doing the job
that I committed to, that I committed to and believed
was important. I believed in what the Biden administration was doing.
When I talk about the broken White House, I'm talking
about the current White House. I'm talking about what we're
seeing in this moment from the Trump administration. And so
(08:50):
I guess the criticism about oh your device, I'm one person.
I'm one person. I agree. I appreciate that. I don't agree.
I appreciate that. I appreciate that statement. But then that's
why I think, why not use my power or my
platform to have a difficult conversation. I think it's important
(09:12):
to have.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
A difficult thingy that come twenty twenty eight, you will
vote for a Democratic candidate today, say well, and I
vote is up for debate.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Well, what I'm saying is there's no way on this
planet that I would vote for a Republican right now,
the Republican poverty does not represent me at all, not
to an iota, especially if you're talking about Project twenty
and twenty five, which they're clearly all behind. What I
am saying is I want to make sure that my
voice is counted. You all know this. When it comes
(09:41):
to the final like thirty days sixty days of an election,
who do the candidates go after. They go after independent voters.
They believe that their base is already solidified, which in
many ways it is true. They look for independent voters
and they literally rush and do everything that they can
to make sure that they come out and vote. And
(10:04):
you all know this too. Fact, millions of people decided
not to participate in twenty twenty four. People who voted
in twenty twenty four home, they stayed home. There is
a fundamental problem here that we need to address. That's
why when you were asking me or hey, well why now,
why not? Now something is broken. Millions of people stayed home,
(10:28):
did not come to vote. Now, there are probably multiple
various factors the economy, you know, I'm sure there are
many many factors for them personally, but we didn't reach them.
And I take accountability too, right, I think what happened
in twenty twenty four, we all have to take accountability
for what happened.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah, we'll be right, buck.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
I think it's it's important to understand how you get
to this point. Yeah, yeah, a little bit of your
your thought process. And I think for many people, right,
I think the beginning of the end was that presidential
debate between President Biden and Donald Trump. Right, That's when people.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah, oh I remember.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I think it's okay, so you remember, but I think
you have a very different perception from what they do.
You describe President Biden's debate on that stage against Donald Trump,
and i'll quote you. You say that his performance was a
faltering performance, and I think many of us saw a
catastrophic performance. Yeah, I'm just curious, what did you see
that we didn't see?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, so a couple of things. And he will say
that it was not a great debate. I think he
actually used a curse word when he was on a
show not too long ago this past spring on how
and how he thought about him.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Think he was coming out of it.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
So he explained it himself when he was on the
view and I think the first person that he saw
was doctor Biden, and I think he used the ne
f word, right, I think he used a curse word
when he saw her and was like, oh my gosh,
I can't believe like he knew, he knew it was
not a good debate. And we all saw what we
saw with our eyes. And I want to be very clear,
we never tried to deny that with the American public.
(12:04):
We were like, Yep, this was a bad debate. This
was not the debate that we had hoped for.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
But more than but maybe maybe that's the question. It's
much more than about catastrophic disastrous.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
And look, I'm not taking away any of those words
of how people saw it. I think, and you were
saying this with your question. I think what I want
to be clear about is this is someone that I
saw every single day, right, This is someone that I
interacted with I'm talking about President Bien obviously every single day.
(12:35):
And so when I was going into the briefing room
and they were asking me about his mental acuity, it
was not something or a decline, It was not something
that I honestly saw. Was he aging? Absolutely? We all
get old, absolutely, And yeah, and yes, and he was
eighty one right, And we never deny that. Did I
(12:56):
ever question his mental acuity? No?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Did others around you?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
No, not that I know, Not that I was the debate.
Many people question.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Many people question, this is someone And I say this
in what I saw, in the truth that I saw,
which is this is someone who understand policy. This is
someone and I'm talking about President Biden obviously understood policy,
understood history, and would also debate you. Right, This was
(13:25):
somebody that I would have a debate about what was
in the news, what was happening, and so he was
more than fit to be president and to the job.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
He started mixing words and numbers, millionniers for billionaires. And
you say that he had a cult, I mean, does
that explain that?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
I mean, we were all shocked. We were all shocked.
Nobody was expecting that. So from what I understand and
what I saw is like, this is not the person
that I know. It's not. Remember, I saw him every
single day, every single day I was as White House
pre secretary. This is somebody that I spoke to and
traveled more than ninety percent of the time with, whether
(14:04):
it was domestic and formed. It was unusual there was
not a pattern here, if that makes sense. There wasn't
a pattern. It was very much a one off. And
so that is what I'm responding to to someone who
saw him on a daily basis and had an opportunity
to see him and interact with him. So the debate
(14:24):
was unusual. It was an unusual moment in time.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
So you do think there was nothing something wrong with him?
I know.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
I don't. I really do not. I truly do not.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
So believe that he was the right candidate to go
against ad.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
So he made I think, and I say this as well,
and I've said this on the podium many many times,
I do believe he was the only person that could
make that decision on if he could run or not. Right,
I think it was up to him. Because we have
to also go back a little bit to coming out
of the twenty twenty mid termlinetions and that early period
(15:02):
of twenty twenty three. We didn't have a red wave
like everybody had reported that was going to happen, and
which usually happens in a first mid term of a president.
That did not occur. If anything, what we had accomplished
and the messagings that Democrats were given helped them not
have a red wave. And no one publicly, I know
there was this one individual that decided to primary him.
(15:27):
No one, none of the leadership made a call privately
a publicly to say you can't run for reelection. They
gave him the space to make that decision in twenty
twenty three because they believed it was his decision to make.
If I.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Absolutely Vice President Kamala Harris with her new book, Yeah
One and seven Days, that seems to say something very different, right,
which is that she seems to tell us in that
book that she herself was hesitant about President Biden's decision
to run again. And these are always so you can
react to that.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
One of the things that she writes about, and this
is her writing about the president's decision to run again.
She says, she says, I'm quoting it's Joe and Jill's decision.
We all said that, she says like a mantra, as
if we'd all been hypnotized. And then she says, was
it grace or was it reckless? In retrospect, I think
it was recklessness. The states were simply too high. This
wasn't a choice that should have been left to an
(16:22):
individual's ego, an individual's ambition. It should have been more
than just a personal decision. It was pretty no pretty,
And I've.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Heard those and look, I respect Vice President Kamala Harris tremendously.
I believe that she ran a great campaign. I say
this in the book for one hundred and seven Days
is her book is named. And she was a historic figure,
historic leadership that she at that point, at that time
that she was able to do. And I think she's allowed.
(16:50):
I think we're all allowed to tell her truth and
to give her story. I could only give it from
my perspective. And again, I go back to twenty twenty
three and what we went through and what we saw
and how people were feeling about his presidency at the time,
because it was successful to all accounts. And this is
(17:11):
an objective. This is not me being like, oh yeah,
we had a succes.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
No.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
The things that we were able to do historically, whether
the economy, healthcare, you know, medicare being able to now
be able to go against the you know, pharmaceutical whatever,
it was, expanding healthcare for people veterans. We had a
successful presidency. And so you won and won, and that's
you did.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
You had so many accomplished exactly. People did not understand
that message.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Yeah, and you're you're correct. And to your point, he
was the only one too happy Donald Trump. I mean
those were justcially.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
You think he could have done that again? In other words,
you think Pressian and Biden would have been a better
candidate than Kamala hard.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Look, here's here's what I know. I think that he
made a decision for the country, not just for himself.
He is someone who it's hard, right, It's hard when
you're an elected official for ego, I mean right, I
mean they say this about presidents, right, it's hard to
not have your ego be playing into this. But this
is someone that I understood who my experience with him,
(18:14):
I've known him since two thousand and nine, really cared
about the country. He's like one of those last of
his that great generation, really truly cared about the movement,
where the country was going and human beings. And I
know that that played a part into his decision. That's
what I would assume. It was not.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Hard, But that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
That's what I'm saying. I'm saying the facts led up
to you thinking that you understand why he would run again,
right that the facts that were there at the time.
I don't know. It's kind of hypothetical. I don't nobody
really knows if he would have won or not. It's
a it's a hard thing to say. He made the
decision about now about Kamala Harris. He made the decision
(18:59):
to his vice president, a historic pick that he made,
and back her one hundred and ten percent fully when
she became the nominee. And I think that's.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Also You'll also say that you watch the Democratic leadership
and I'm quoting here abandoned an Indian, betray Biden.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, I do, I do. I mean, this is what
I was saying before. I truly believe that in twenty
twenty three they were behind him, and I understand he had, however,
you want to say, a disastrous debate, but again, the
other side had their guy, and they came together and
understood the assignment, understood they understood what was at stake
(19:41):
for them. And I think the way it was handle
hurt us in the broad sense. For sure, hurt us
in her election because remember they tried to the Democratic
leadership also tried to have a broker to election there
were many who did not want her to be the nominee.
What benefit would that call? Yeah, exactly. She was very
(20:04):
she was very vicial about it.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Was that the breaking point for when.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
I mentioned George Clooney's article, it's more of oh my god,
like here it is, it was more of like, oh
my goodness, because they.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Were seeing something that you maybe didn't see.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Again, I saw him every day, every single day practically
during the last two and a half years, at least
in my in my position, almost every day for the
four years. I am someone who saw him every day.
I am not saying that he did not age. I'm
not saying that that is clear. I'm talking about his
mental acuity and awareness and able to do the job
(20:44):
at a high level talking about the presidency, and he
was able to do that from my perspective what I
saw every day, and that is what I'm talking about.
And I do think that the Democratic leadership also tried
to damage her. I do. I mean they were pretty
vocal about it, and I think his support for her
(21:07):
and the community, the African American community, the base, the
Democratic base where women, black women in particular, were like, no,
we're not going to allow that to happen, and they
showed up for her, And I think that's really important
to note too as we think about the process.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
So I think the question then is did the Democratic
Party let the nation down?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
I think that when you have millions of voters staying
home and thinking that this election is not important enough
to it's not important enough for me to go out
and vote, and they voted in twenty twenty, I think
that's a question that has to be asked. I think yes,
I think that there was a mishap, right, I think
(21:50):
there was something that we didn't see. And again I
take responsibility. I have to take my responsibility too. I
was at the podium, I was working for I was
taken to the face, right. But more so, what I'm
talking about now in the book is about the moment
that we are in and how do we move forward
in the future. Right I write the book, I use
(22:12):
that three weeks and the election to kind of tell
the story, if you will, to a broader place that
we're in right now in this moment. It really is
a way to be futuristic and moving forward. But I
use my story and what happened in order to talk
about being an independent in order to talk about how
do we how do we fix this and how do
(22:34):
we have this conversation to be very clear about the past.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yeah, the only thing that informs the presence.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
It's a good exercise.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
It's an exercise exactly take.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Us to the podium that I think, Yeah, maybe let's
because I think a lot of people don't really understand
what it feels like behind a podium every single day. Yeah,
we'll be right back.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
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Speaker 2 (23:31):
So you yeah, page two, you say, being the first
black person, immigrant, and openly a queer woman to be
spokesperson for the President of the United States was a
historic role and tremendous honor. But you continue, But it
also meant I spent four years speaking for someone else.
I had to hold my tongue. Yeah, So what is
(23:52):
it that you didn't say, Oh, well, I think or
you couldn't say no.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Well, here's the thing, and what I mean by that,
just for clarity, is when you're at when you're representing someone,
you're representing their voice. I wasn't the press secretary for
Karine Jean Pierre. I was the presbeteriat for Joe Biden,
and so I had to represent him in how he
would want me to speak to the American people or
two reporters, and how he would like me to represent myself.
(24:18):
So in that quote, there are two sides to that too,
which is as a person of color, a black person, someone,
there's so many stereotypes about us, you have to be
really mindful of those stereotypes, right, the angry black woman stereotype. Oh,
I felt it.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I had to be because well, I mean I'm not
going to go that far.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
What I'm going to say is I looked different than
anybody else who stood at that lectern, on that podium,
and so therefore there are stereotypes that live in people's
heads that you are responsible for breaking and also not
lifting up those stereotypes. So that certainly was part of
(25:01):
my thinking. And I was speaking for someone else, right,
So I couldn't holding my tongue, is if I couldn't
curse out a republic.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
But you're going to say your opinions you are.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, I couldn't say my opinions because it's not about me, right,
I mean, it's just not you. You worked for a
networking vision. You had to be right. You had to
be mindful on how you represented because you were, Yes,
you were. We all know that you have a you're
a force of nature, but you also had to be
mindful about the network that you were working for. Right,
(25:38):
And I.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Think the audience way looser.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Don't you feel like you have a little bit more
freedom after fire? We're just talking about independent journalism. Now
you have your you are able probably to put your
opinions a little bit more than you had before.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Absolutely, So that's that that's said what you were saying
in the book before.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
But I couldn't. Right again, it's not me. And here's
the thing. Being White House Press Secretary for Joe Biden
was an honor and a privilege of a lifetime. I
don't think I would have had that experience or opportunity
with anybody else because being White House Press secretary is
a personal decision that the president makes on who they
want to represent them. So I'm completely honored and privileged
(26:26):
to have had that. Now it comes with an understanding
you are in a box. And one last thing I'll say,
and I know you have more questions for me, is
in my private life as White House Press secretary, I
was always White House pre secretary. Does that make sense?
Like when I would go to the coffee shop or go.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
To the supermarket.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
People weren't just like, oh, you're you can never turn
it off. You were always exactly you don't turn it
all that hard. It's hard. It's hard. I mean, I
was your my mom was sick. I have a little
a little kid, and so what. But it forced me
to do at least for me. Was I really limited
people who had access to me, and I limited like
(27:07):
I was in a box, if you think about it,
I did.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Also in a box inside the White House. I mean
because one of the things that you deribe absolutely kind
of some feelings of resentment, even within some of your colleagues.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
It's disappointment, I would say, more of disappointment. So look,
a friend of mine said this to me, there are
two jobs that people kill for, right, which is like
the person who is the personal assistant, like the body
person of the president, and the White House Press secretary.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Like those hottest jobs.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
I think everybody wants those jobs, the hottest job. So
I'm not unusual right where people were constantly trying to
go after my job. That happens, I think to every
former White House Press secretary, I think it's it's a
hot job. People want it. The way that they went
about it was disappointing, right, the cruelty behind it, your
(27:58):
colleagues within the White House, right.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
The White House.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
It was in the press, right, there were sources from
senior bificial leaks about me about oh my gosh, she
does it, she can't do the whatever. It was right,
And you know it was also they leaned into me
being a first They leaned into me as the communities
(28:25):
that I represented. It was cruel, it was mean, and
I again had to hold my tongue as you were
asking me that question.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Why hold your tongue.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Because now that's more personal than anything else. Because I
didn't want to play the games. That's just more who
I am as a person. I'm not going to play
the game. So okay, I go after you in the press,
you come after me. It becomes a really ugly, nasty game.
And there was too much at stake. I had to
focus on the job at hand, and it's just not
who I am, just fundamentally who I am. Even when
(28:57):
the book was announced and things that were being said,
I kept quiet. I'm only starting to do interviews now
because the book is coming out, But I'm like, I
don't have to say anything until I want to say something.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Can I ask you about process? How do you handle
tough questions?
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I was telling there's just a few people in the
country that have faced more difficult questions than you.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Well, well, I mean, look, I had a great team
that worked for me and prepared me.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Every day at the hour preparation.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Oh four hours, at least four hours of preparation before
the press conference. The press briefing to be more specific,
so that mattered, like really being ready. And we always
had a sense, right, we always had a sense of
what reporters were thinking, what was on their minds, what
they wanted to ask us. So it's not like I
went into the briefing completely blind, right, I knew. We
(29:48):
always had a sense of what was coming at me.
Attitude it was, it was basically, never let them see
you sweat, right, never let them get under your skin.
And that is the name of the game, aim, Right,
there's always in the it's a game, right, you're going
back and forth, it's a volley, it's a gotcha. Their
job is to do the gotchas. Oh, we're going to
(30:10):
get her. We're going to get her or whoever is
at the post. And it's not just me, but it's
whoever is at the post circle.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, you know because you've been on the other right, right,
you know exactly.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
You know when you've you've interviewed presidents and candidates and you.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Wait for the weakness, for the moment, for the boss,
and then you attack you right, and you're on the
other side. That's why I'm asking.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
It's like it's like, you know, they and if they
and you know this, all right, if you sense blood.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
You go for it. You go for it immediately.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Pounds right, and you and you are a good reporter
if you.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Just don't let up, so you wont at the end,
I'm saying so many I don't know how many press briefings,
but after you think you want.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
You, I don't.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I survived, all right? How about that? I think I
think I survived, you know, And I think I think
the funny part to me is for those who were like,
who was saying, oh, you know, even the President doesn't
want her as press secretary, or who were saying, oh
she's so whatever.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
They were saying about so many really that you were
not prepared.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Prepared, which is not true. Yeah, I outlasted some of
those people who went after me, right, I outlasted them.
The President made me a senior advisor a year ago.
He made me a senior advisor. You don't make people
senior advisors because you want them to go. You make
them senior advisors because I appreciate you so much and
(31:37):
I don't want you to go that I'm going to
give you an additional title as senior advisor. So I
feel that I more than survived. I prove them wrong.
And you know I'm not. That's not the point of
this tour, right I'm not like Chuck Bump. No, I
mean that truly isn't the point of the tour. The
point of the book and the book tour is to
(31:57):
really focus in and zero in in the moment that
we are in right now, because I am scared. I
am worried.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
What's rausy than most right now?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I mean, look, you turn on the TV and you
hear about someone from someone's family is missing and they
don't know where they are, children being taken away, raids
happening everywhere across the country. That's scary. And if you're
not paying attention to that, then you're not paying attention
(32:30):
to what's happening in this country, and that's even more scary.
And I always believe, and I say this, and I'm
not like a brilliant person to say this. If they
come after one, they come after all. That is how
a democracy fails. That is how authoritarianism goes. It is chaos.
It is going after people and making people fearful. And
(32:53):
that's what they're doing. This is about a fear and
that is a thousand percent. Some people smarter than me
would say, you know, historians would say, we are in
an authoritarian regime in this moment. It certainly feels that
way when you are the most powerful person in the world,
(33:14):
certainly in this country, and you are sending military to
cities and making up reasons to send them to cities
so that they can do raids, so that they can
pull people over, so that they can take people just
randomly from the street. What is that? What is that?
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Well? I think you're I think you're taking the conversation there,
because I think the pretext for so much of what
we're seeing now begins in that twenty twenty four campaign trill,
when I think Republicans really weaponize the immigration border crisis
talking points right when they really paint President Biden as,
you know, someone that was unable to control the borders
(33:56):
and therefore, in their words, allow all these criminals and
gang members. But I think that's kind of the foundation
of everything that we're seeing now, know that rhetoric. Yeah,
So do you feel that Democrats lost the immigration debate?
Did they lose this election because of immigration?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
So? I think there are many reasons why they lost.
I think to hold it on one thing is probably
I think it was a vary end of the things.
It was a huge message. Look, we tried really really hard,
as you know, even to come up with a piece
of legislation that all sides would agree on, just to
get the conversation going on immigration. Republicans held it up
(34:35):
in the Senate and they weaponized it, like you said,
and it became a very ugly, disgusting rhetoric. And it's
a fear again, connecting the fear, the fear mongering of
a group of a citizenship of a group or migrants,
and it's disgusting. I felt it personally. Ohio, right Springfield, Ohio,
(34:57):
Haitians are eating dogs and cats. That is not true.
And they used that, they weaponized why to scare the
people in Ohio and Springfield, Ohio. And many people said,
even the mayor said, oh no, these migrants are actually
helping with the economy. They're actually good, they're doing good work.
We appreciate that they're there. But the leadership of the
(35:21):
Republican Party weaponized that. But we're seeing that across the board.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Put Democrats.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
I do though, I think, and this is why I
think we have to take I also have to take
accountability our messaging they took, they stole the messaging right,
They made us look like we were the bad guys,
and also used the community to fear mongering. So we
did not have the messages. We did not own the
messaging right. The economy, I mean, you can talk about
(35:45):
a lot of things where the economy was better, it
was getting better. Now. Obviously we were coming from COVID
twenty twenty where things were devastated, but people weren't feeling it,
and so and.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
The Democratic Party lacked a very clear message.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Yeah, and I think.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
If you ask what do they believe in, it's difficult
just to say us, as you can say for Republicans
for instance.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
And that's the whole point of the book, right, that
really is That's what I was hearing. What you're saying
to me, Jorge, is what I was hearing from strangers.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Exactly where were they like.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Okay, but what's our messaging? Why aren't they fighting? What's happening?
It's like we's it's the giving up of power, but
they're not powerless. And so I think that is the fear.
That is the fear. We don't see them, we don't
see the Democratic Party out there fighting. We just don't
even look right now there's a shutdown, and I appreciate
(36:44):
the Democrats who are fighting this tooth and nail. My
heart goes out to federal workers who are suffering in
this moment, and that's real. They need their paycheck in
order to survive. And you have veterans, you have senior citizens,
you have many people who those programs that you need
they're not getting because of this government government shut down.
So it is hurting people. But in order for the
(37:07):
government to reopen, Republicans have to come to different Democrats.
They have to work with them.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
They're not going to though, and so we're that's the
scary part. The question is do Democrats have to make concessions.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Look, I think in this moment they have to do
everything that they can to show the public the people.
I think what what has been forgotten is that it
is not about politics, is about doing something for people.
And they have to show a fight, and you have
to hold Republicans accountable and remind this is the messaging
you got to remind people. Republicans have the House, they
(37:42):
have the Senate, and they have the White House. This
is on them. And they have to be very clear
about that. Maybe they should go to a hospital and
do a press conference in front of a hospital that's
about to shut down. Right maybe, I mean like they're
ways there are things that they can be doing.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
There a Democrat to win your vote today.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Oh my gosh, it would take. It would take so
much more than right now. People ask about the trans issue,
and when you're throwing a community under the bus for
short term gain, that's a problem to me. Now. Civil
rights movement, human rights movement, there were things that were
(38:30):
not poll tested well, and it should not be about politics.
It should be about human rights.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
They get its, NA cannot give them.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
You cannot give up on immigrants. Migrants. This is what
this country is made of. And that's so those are
the things that are problematic to me. One of the
reasons I was part of this the Democratic Party for
so long is the big ten party. It doesn't matter
who you are, it doesn't matter even if we disagree.
(39:00):
In this party. We can disagree and listen to each other.
And but at the end of the day, we're all protected.
And that is I feel like that's missing, that is missing.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
We only have a couple of more minutes. Have you
been in touch with President Biden? He was diagnosed, of course,
with a pro state cancer. How's he doing?
Speaker 3 (39:21):
So he called me recently, a couple of weeks ago,
he called me out of the blue. I should be
calling him. He called me out of the blue to
check in on me, just to check in on me
and to see how I was doing. And you know,
we didn't talk about his diagnosis or anything like that.
It was literally him saying thank you to me, checking
(39:42):
in on me and making sure I was okay.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
What does he say about your book?
Speaker 3 (39:46):
We haven't talked about THEO. He will have a copy
of the book.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
What do you think his reaction will look?
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Look, he is someone who is very distinguished and a
a lifelong Democrat, and I think believes in the Democratic Party.
And so my guess is that he still believes in
the Democratic Party and everything that it is and what
he has fought for. I mean, he was, you know,
a senator, a vice president, president for more than fifty years,
(40:17):
so I think he probably would be like, look, I'm
a Democrat. I will always be a Democrat. And I'm like,
I hear you, I hear what you're saying, and I
hope that he would appreciate that I'm trying to be
as honest as I can and really being in the
moment and looking towards the future.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Do you think you'll lose any friends or colleagues because
of this book? Does that even matter?
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Do you know what I'll say, Paul, I'll say this.
I have been someone who has been under attacked and
criticized for a long long time. This is nothing new.
This is nothing new, and I do believe truly you
have to stand for something or you lose yourself. I
have a beautiful eleven year old daughter, and it matters
(41:01):
to me the type of country that we leave her
and her peers.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
You're fighting for her.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
I'm fighting for her.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
So thanks so much. By the way, how is Karlin living? Actually?
How is she doing?
Speaker 1 (41:16):
How do you greet her? And so objectively?
Speaker 3 (41:20):
I'm gonna be very honest. I have not watched one
of her briefings. I don't want That's how I I
You know, I am very much paying attention to what's
happening to my communities and and focused on that and
where we are as a No, I don't think she
would have though. I don't think she would have and
so more other people who are more qualified can speak
(41:40):
to to that.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Thank you so much for talking to Thank you. I
appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Thank you, congratulations, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
The Moment is a production of Dan Moulante Studios and
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Speaker 2 (41:53):
Our stuff includes Daniel Santia Colonne. Lisa said that with
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Speaker 1 (42:06):
Executive producers that I hear are Arlene Santana and Leo Romes.
Paulo Cabreda and Delen Nunger also serve as producers.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
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Speaker 1 (42:23):
Sound design, final mix and theme song by Elias Marsalez.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
I'm Corte Ramos and I'm Paula Ramas. Thanks for listening
to the moment.
Ola.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
I'm Corcarramos, and this is the moment I'm really looking
forward to the next interview here in Washington, DC.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
So we came to Washington, DC to talk to Karine
Jean Pierre. And so Karine Jean Pierre was President Joe
Biden's last press secretary. She's releasing a book this week
that I think is going to be pretty controversial because
her book is titled Independent, A Look Inside a Broken
White House Outside the Party Lines. Now it's controversial, I
(00:37):
think because this is someone that has worked for the
Democratic Party her entire life. I mean, she's been a
Democrat for twenty years, she worked for President.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Obama, and she's breaking with the party.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Now she's breaking with the party.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
Yeah, So I'm interested on because of other reasons. She
was the first black, the first immigrant, the first queer
woman ever to represent the President of the United States
as a spokesperson. And only not only that, her job
was precise lead to answer the most difficult question.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Here's the question that we wanted to answer. So let's
try and do that. We want to understand if being
an independent is the way to defeat trump Ism. In
twenty twenty.
Speaker 2 (01:11):
Five, cutting Jumpierre when we come back.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
So welcome to the moment.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
Thank you, thank you all the moment is this is
so perfect. We are living in a moment, so thank
you so much for having me. Congratulations. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
We were saying that in a few years from now,
people will be asking us, what do you do during
those years? No, and we have an answer with journalists.
But I think you have an answer with your book.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, And I think maybe twenty ten years
ago the answer was a Democratic Party for you, right,
I mean you, oh yeah. This essentially devoted so much
of your career to that party. You worked in presidential campaigns,
you worked for President Obama. Of course, you served as
President Biden's press secretary. And here you are with a
new book that's titled Independent Look In Study, Broken White House,
(01:58):
Outside the Party Lines. Yeah, the book essentially, which it's fantastic,
it's eye opening you.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
That means a lot. It's coming from the both of you.
That means a thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
And I think it's it's eye opening because you're essentially
urging Americans and voters to question party lines and to
even question their loyalty to the Democratic Party. And perhaps
what you're saying is that that in and of itself
helps us in this quest to fight for democracy. So
that's kind of where I want to start, and understanding
(02:28):
what inside this Biden white House and what about those
four years in the Biden administration? How did that inform
your decision to leave the Democratic Party and to do
it in such a public way.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
Yeah, so a couple of things. So this thought process
of mine of becoming independent has been a long time coming,
if you will, I think if you watch my career,
you would say, oh, she's always been independent. I don't
think you become the first of something or break a
glass ceiling without having your own kind of independent way
(02:59):
of thinking, your own compass, right. A lot of this
is about your compass, and so it's been a long
time coming. Obviously. In the book, I talk about a
specific moment those three weeks during the president President Biden's
debate to how we got to the nomination of twenty
twenty four, and I was very disappointed by the way
the party behaved, especially in a moment when talk about
(03:23):
the moment, in a moment where everything was at stake,
and what I mean by that is, if you looked
at what the other party was doing, they were behind
their guy. However, however they saw him. They were behind
a felon, someone who is accused of being a ray.
All of the things, they all lined up behind him.
Project twenty twenty five, they all lined up behind that,
(03:45):
and we just couldn't get it together when people's lives
were at risk at stake. And look, the President's going
to write his own book. He's going to talk about
that moment in his way. Yes, he's supposed to be
writing a book. They've announced that. And I don't know
what's going to be President Biden, y as President Biden,
And I don't want to speak for him obviously that
in that regard, and for me it was it was
(04:08):
as one of the only people that was speaking during
that time, I thought to myself, what is happening like
we are in a real existential threat. What is happening
right now? And then when he finally did decide, when
he made his decision and he decided he was going
to hand over the reins, people within the party were
wanting to make it difficult for her as a historic first,
(04:30):
as a historic figure, Kamala Harris probably should be more specific.
Thank you so much. That's why you're a journalist. But
you know, they were talking about broken convention. They were
talking about, you know, oh, we should, we should really
open this up. And I'm thinking to myself, no, we
don't have a lot of time here, like, we just don't.
This is not the time. And so there were a
lot of thought processes that obviously went to that space.
(04:53):
And now you fast forward to January twenty one, twenty
twenty five, and everywhere where I was going, people were
coming up to me and there was a huge disappointment
in the Democratic Party. There was a huge disappointment in
the leadership. People were saying the Democratic Party had lost
their soul. And my thinking then was again Project twenty five.
(05:18):
The Republican Party was very clear, very clear about what
they were going to do. They're just taking it off.
More than forty percent of it is done. They weren't
hiding it. So why wasn't the Democratic Party ready? Why
why they rubber stamping his nominees to Donald Trump's nominees.
Why is that happening. There's a protest that's happening this Saturday.
(05:41):
Why is the Democratic Party not holding protests? Why are
we only hearing from outside groups?
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, that's why you became independent.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
That's why, Well, it's a long thinking process. But the
reason I decided to write this book, and the reason
I've decided to be very clear about where I am
and where I stand is because I wanted to start
this conversation. Is because I felt as if if I
make this statement, then hopefully it opens up a space
to have a conversation about the party. We need a
(06:11):
two party system in order for democracy to function. That
is correct. And I'm not saying we need I'm not
saying I want to form a third party. I am
saying and it's very very nuanced, and I try to
lay it out in the book. I am saying that
we need to be independent voices and question and push
people who are powerful.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
But it is the right time to be independent, to
tell your story because some people might think by doing that,
you're dividing the party more than ever.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
And I like that question.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
Look, I love that question, But then when is the time, Like, so,
when is the time to do it? There's never going
to be a right time. And I actually, I actually
truly believe when you're in a situation like this, it
is important, especially when you're the party that's out of power.
To start reimagining, rethinking how we move forward as a country.
(07:04):
And what is happening is the people who have the power,
democratic leadership, who have the power, are acting and behaving
as if they don't have power. When people are questioning
democracy and are skeptical about democracy, that's dangerous because in
order to have it, you need to be practicing it
every single day.
Speaker 2 (07:23):
So this is the right time for you to tell
the story. I just think even if the party might
hurt by.
Speaker 3 (07:27):
Not doing that, I don't think the party will hurt.
That's not I don't see it in that negative.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
You're criticizing the party. You're saying the Democratic Party didn't work.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
But this is a democracy. This is a democracy. And
by the way, I'm a private citizen. I'm a private
citizen right now, right so living work. I mean, I
know we're headed to an authoritarian regime here, but I
have the right as a private citizen to be critical.
I have a right as a private, private citizen to
(07:57):
question authority. That is one of the reasons both of
my parents are from Haiti. They grew up in a dictatorship.
That's the reason they came to this country in the
hopes so that their kids could have a voice. So
that is like my my given right as a citizen
of this country to criticize.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
And it's you could have done it from within when
you were part of the party. Maybe that's the question
you're doing it.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I mean, look, but look, when I was part of
the party, I was speaking for the president and for
the party right, and so I was doing the job
that I committed to, that I committed to and believed
was important. I believed in what the Biden administration was doing.
When I talk about the broken White House, I'm talking
about the current White House. I'm talking about what we're
seeing in this moment from the Trump administration. And so
(08:50):
I guess the criticism about oh your device, I'm one person.
I'm one person. I agree. I appreciate that. I don't agree.
I appreciate that. I appreciate that statement. But then that's
why I think, why not use my power or my
platform to have a difficult conversation. I think it's important
(09:12):
to have.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
A difficult thingy that come twenty twenty eight, you will
vote for a Democratic candidate today, say well, and I
vote is up for debate.
Speaker 3 (09:20):
Well, what I'm saying is there's no way on this
planet that I would vote for a Republican right now,
the Republican poverty does not represent me at all, not
to an iota, especially if you're talking about Project twenty
and twenty five, which they're clearly all behind. What I
am saying is I want to make sure that my
voice is counted. You all know this. When it comes
(09:41):
to the final like thirty days sixty days of an election,
who do the candidates go after. They go after independent voters.
They believe that their base is already solidified, which in
many ways it is true. They look for independent voters
and they literally rush and do everything that they can
to make sure that they come out and vote. And
(10:04):
you all know this too. Fact, millions of people decided
not to participate in twenty twenty four. People who voted
in twenty twenty four home, they stayed home. There is
a fundamental problem here that we need to address. That's
why when you were asking me or hey, well why now,
why not? Now something is broken. Millions of people stayed home,
(10:28):
did not come to vote. Now, there are probably multiple
various factors the economy, you know, I'm sure there are
many many factors for them personally, but we didn't reach them.
And I take accountability too, right, I think what happened
in twenty twenty four, we all have to take accountability
for what happened.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
Yeah, we'll be right, buck.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
I think it's it's important to understand how you get
to this point. Yeah, yeah, a little bit of your
your thought process. And I think for many people, right,
I think the beginning of the end was that presidential
debate between President Biden and Donald Trump. Right, That's when people.
Speaker 3 (11:07):
Yeah, oh I remember.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
I think it's okay, so you remember, but I think
you have a very different perception from what they do.
You describe President Biden's debate on that stage against Donald Trump,
and i'll quote you. You say that his performance was a
faltering performance, and I think many of us saw a
catastrophic performance. Yeah, I'm just curious, what did you see
that we didn't see?
Speaker 3 (11:30):
Yeah, so a couple of things. And he will say
that it was not a great debate. I think he
actually used a curse word when he was on a
show not too long ago this past spring on how
and how he thought about him.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
Think he was coming out of it.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
So he explained it himself when he was on the
view and I think the first person that he saw
was doctor Biden, and I think he used the ne
f word, right, I think he used a curse word
when he saw her and was like, oh my gosh,
I can't believe like he knew, he knew it was
not a good debate. And we all saw what we
saw with our eyes. And I want to be very clear,
we never tried to deny that with the American public.
(12:04):
We were like, Yep, this was a bad debate. This
was not the debate that we had hoped for.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
But more than but maybe maybe that's the question. It's
much more than about catastrophic disastrous.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
And look, I'm not taking away any of those words
of how people saw it. I think, and you were
saying this with your question. I think what I want
to be clear about is this is someone that I
saw every single day, right, This is someone that I
interacted with I'm talking about President Bien obviously every single day.
(12:35):
And so when I was going into the briefing room
and they were asking me about his mental acuity, it
was not something or a decline, It was not something
that I honestly saw. Was he aging? Absolutely? We all
get old, absolutely, And yeah, and yes, and he was
eighty one right, And we never deny that. Did I
(12:56):
ever question his mental acuity? No?
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Did others around you?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
No, not that I know, Not that I was the debate.
Many people question.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Many people question, this is someone And I say this
in what I saw, in the truth that I saw,
which is this is someone who understand policy. This is
someone and I'm talking about President Biden obviously understood policy,
understood history, and would also debate you. Right, This was
(13:25):
somebody that I would have a debate about what was
in the news, what was happening, and so he was
more than fit to be president and to the job.
Speaker 2 (13:35):
He started mixing words and numbers, millionniers for billionaires. And
you say that he had a cult, I mean, does
that explain that?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
I mean, we were all shocked. We were all shocked.
Nobody was expecting that. So from what I understand and
what I saw is like, this is not the person
that I know. It's not. Remember, I saw him every
single day, every single day I was as White House
pre secretary. This is somebody that I spoke to and
traveled more than ninety percent of the time with, whether
(14:04):
it was domestic and formed. It was unusual there was
not a pattern here, if that makes sense. There wasn't
a pattern. It was very much a one off. And
so that is what I'm responding to to someone who
saw him on a daily basis and had an opportunity
to see him and interact with him. So the debate
(14:24):
was unusual. It was an unusual moment in time.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
So you do think there was nothing something wrong with him?
I know.
Speaker 3 (14:31):
I don't. I really do not. I truly do not.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
So believe that he was the right candidate to go
against ad.
Speaker 3 (14:39):
So he made I think, and I say this as well,
and I've said this on the podium many many times,
I do believe he was the only person that could
make that decision on if he could run or not. Right,
I think it was up to him. Because we have
to also go back a little bit to coming out
of the twenty twenty mid termlinetions and that early period
(15:02):
of twenty twenty three. We didn't have a red wave
like everybody had reported that was going to happen, and
which usually happens in a first mid term of a president.
That did not occur. If anything, what we had accomplished
and the messagings that Democrats were given helped them not
have a red wave. And no one publicly, I know
there was this one individual that decided to primary him.
(15:27):
No one, none of the leadership made a call privately
a publicly to say you can't run for reelection. They
gave him the space to make that decision in twenty
twenty three because they believed it was his decision to make.
If I.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Absolutely Vice President Kamala Harris with her new book, Yeah
One and seven Days, that seems to say something very different, right,
which is that she seems to tell us in that
book that she herself was hesitant about President Biden's decision
to run again. And these are always so you can
react to that.
Speaker 3 (16:01):
Right.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
One of the things that she writes about, and this
is her writing about the president's decision to run again.
She says, she says, I'm quoting it's Joe and Jill's decision.
We all said that, she says like a mantra, as
if we'd all been hypnotized. And then she says, was
it grace or was it reckless? In retrospect, I think
it was recklessness. The states were simply too high. This
wasn't a choice that should have been left to an
(16:22):
individual's ego, an individual's ambition. It should have been more
than just a personal decision. It was pretty no pretty,
And I've.
Speaker 3 (16:30):
Heard those and look, I respect Vice President Kamala Harris tremendously.
I believe that she ran a great campaign. I say
this in the book for one hundred and seven Days
is her book is named. And she was a historic figure,
historic leadership that she at that point, at that time
that she was able to do. And I think she's allowed.
(16:50):
I think we're all allowed to tell her truth and
to give her story. I could only give it from
my perspective. And again, I go back to twenty twenty
three and what we went through and what we saw
and how people were feeling about his presidency at the time,
because it was successful to all accounts. And this is
(17:11):
an objective. This is not me being like, oh yeah,
we had a succes.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
No.
Speaker 3 (17:14):
The things that we were able to do historically, whether
the economy, healthcare, you know, medicare being able to now
be able to go against the you know, pharmaceutical whatever,
it was, expanding healthcare for people veterans. We had a
successful presidency. And so you won and won, and that's
you did.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
You had so many accomplished exactly. People did not understand
that message.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Yeah, and you're you're correct. And to your point, he
was the only one too happy Donald Trump. I mean
those were justcially.
Speaker 2 (17:46):
You think he could have done that again? In other words,
you think Pressian and Biden would have been a better
candidate than Kamala hard.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Look, here's here's what I know. I think that he
made a decision for the country, not just for himself.
He is someone who it's hard, right, It's hard when
you're an elected official for ego, I mean right, I
mean they say this about presidents, right, it's hard to
not have your ego be playing into this. But this
is someone that I understood who my experience with him,
(18:14):
I've known him since two thousand and nine, really cared
about the country. He's like one of those last of
his that great generation, really truly cared about the movement,
where the country was going and human beings. And I
know that that played a part into his decision. That's
what I would assume. It was not.
Speaker 2 (18:31):
Hard, But that's not what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
That's what I'm saying. I'm saying the facts led up
to you thinking that you understand why he would run again,
right that the facts that were there at the time.
I don't know. It's kind of hypothetical. I don't nobody
really knows if he would have won or not. It's
a it's a hard thing to say. He made the
decision about now about Kamala Harris. He made the decision
(18:59):
to his vice president, a historic pick that he made,
and back her one hundred and ten percent fully when
she became the nominee. And I think that's.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
Also You'll also say that you watch the Democratic leadership
and I'm quoting here abandoned an Indian, betray Biden.
Speaker 3 (19:16):
Yeah, I do, I do. I mean, this is what
I was saying before. I truly believe that in twenty
twenty three they were behind him, and I understand he had, however,
you want to say, a disastrous debate, but again, the
other side had their guy, and they came together and
understood the assignment, understood they understood what was at stake
(19:41):
for them. And I think the way it was handle
hurt us in the broad sense. For sure, hurt us
in her election because remember they tried to the Democratic
leadership also tried to have a broker to election there
were many who did not want her to be the nominee.
What benefit would that call? Yeah, exactly. She was very
(20:04):
she was very vicial about it.
Speaker 2 (20:05):
Was that the breaking point for when.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
I mentioned George Clooney's article, it's more of oh my god,
like here it is, it was more of like, oh
my goodness, because they.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Were seeing something that you maybe didn't see.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Again, I saw him every day, every single day practically
during the last two and a half years, at least
in my in my position, almost every day for the
four years. I am someone who saw him every day.
I am not saying that he did not age. I'm
not saying that that is clear. I'm talking about his
mental acuity and awareness and able to do the job
(20:44):
at a high level talking about the presidency, and he
was able to do that from my perspective what I
saw every day, and that is what I'm talking about.
And I do think that the Democratic leadership also tried
to damage her. I do. I mean they were pretty
vocal about it, and I think his support for her
(21:07):
and the community, the African American community, the base, the
Democratic base where women, black women in particular, were like, no,
we're not going to allow that to happen, and they
showed up for her, And I think that's really important
to note too as we think about the process.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
So I think the question then is did the Democratic
Party let the nation down?
Speaker 3 (21:29):
I think that when you have millions of voters staying
home and thinking that this election is not important enough
to it's not important enough for me to go out
and vote, and they voted in twenty twenty, I think
that's a question that has to be asked. I think yes,
I think that there was a mishap, right, I think
(21:50):
there was something that we didn't see. And again I
take responsibility. I have to take my responsibility too. I
was at the podium, I was working for I was
taken to the face, right. But more so, what I'm
talking about now in the book is about the moment
that we are in and how do we move forward
in the future. Right I write the book, I use
(22:12):
that three weeks and the election to kind of tell
the story, if you will, to a broader place that
we're in right now in this moment. It really is
a way to be futuristic and moving forward. But I
use my story and what happened in order to talk
about being an independent in order to talk about how
do we how do we fix this and how do
(22:34):
we have this conversation to be very clear about the past.
Speaker 1 (22:36):
Yeah, the only thing that informs the presence.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
I totally agree.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
It's a good exercise.
Speaker 3 (22:41):
It's an exercise exactly take.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Us to the podium that I think, Yeah, maybe let's
because I think a lot of people don't really understand
what it feels like behind a podium every single day. Yeah,
we'll be right back.
Speaker 4 (22:56):
Hi. I'm Danielle Alarcon, executive producer of the Moment. Today,
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Speaker 2 (23:31):
So you yeah, page two, you say, being the first
black person, immigrant, and openly a queer woman to be
spokesperson for the President of the United States was a
historic role and tremendous honor. But you continue, But it
also meant I spent four years speaking for someone else.
I had to hold my tongue. Yeah, So what is
(23:52):
it that you didn't say, Oh, well, I think or
you couldn't say no.
Speaker 3 (23:56):
Well, here's the thing, and what I mean by that,
just for clarity, is when you're at when you're representing someone,
you're representing their voice. I wasn't the press secretary for
Karine Jean Pierre. I was the presbeteriat for Joe Biden,
and so I had to represent him in how he
would want me to speak to the American people or
two reporters, and how he would like me to represent myself.
(24:18):
So in that quote, there are two sides to that too,
which is as a person of color, a black person, someone,
there's so many stereotypes about us, you have to be
really mindful of those stereotypes, right, the angry black woman stereotype. Oh,
I felt it.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
I had to be because well, I mean I'm not
going to go that far.
Speaker 3 (24:41):
What I'm going to say is I looked different than
anybody else who stood at that lectern, on that podium,
and so therefore there are stereotypes that live in people's
heads that you are responsible for breaking and also not
lifting up those stereotypes. So that certainly was part of
(25:01):
my thinking. And I was speaking for someone else, right,
So I couldn't holding my tongue, is if I couldn't
curse out a republic.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
But you're going to say your opinions you are.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, I couldn't say my opinions because it's not about me, right,
I mean, it's just not you. You worked for a
networking vision. You had to be right. You had to
be mindful on how you represented because you were, Yes,
you were. We all know that you have a you're
a force of nature, but you also had to be
mindful about the network that you were working for. Right,
(25:38):
And I.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Think the audience way looser.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Don't you feel like you have a little bit more
freedom after fire? We're just talking about independent journalism. Now
you have your you are able probably to put your
opinions a little bit more than you had before.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
Absolutely, So that's that that's said what you were saying
in the book before.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
But I couldn't. Right again, it's not me. And here's
the thing. Being White House Press Secretary for Joe Biden
was an honor and a privilege of a lifetime. I
don't think I would have had that experience or opportunity
with anybody else because being White House Press secretary is
a personal decision that the president makes on who they
want to represent them. So I'm completely honored and privileged
(26:26):
to have had that. Now it comes with an understanding
you are in a box. And one last thing I'll say,
and I know you have more questions for me, is
in my private life as White House Press secretary, I
was always White House pre secretary. Does that make sense?
Like when I would go to the coffee shop or go.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
To the supermarket.
Speaker 3 (26:45):
People weren't just like, oh, you're you can never turn
it off. You were always exactly you don't turn it
all that hard. It's hard. It's hard. I mean, I
was your my mom was sick. I have a little
a little kid, and so what. But it forced me
to do at least for me. Was I really limited
people who had access to me, and I limited like
(27:07):
I was in a box, if you think about it,
I did.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Also in a box inside the White House. I mean
because one of the things that you deribe absolutely kind
of some feelings of resentment, even within some of your colleagues.
Speaker 3 (27:18):
It's disappointment, I would say, more of disappointment. So look,
a friend of mine said this to me, there are
two jobs that people kill for, right, which is like
the person who is the personal assistant, like the body
person of the president, and the White House Press secretary.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
Like those hottest jobs.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
I think everybody wants those jobs, the hottest job. So
I'm not unusual right where people were constantly trying to
go after my job. That happens, I think to every
former White House Press secretary, I think it's it's a
hot job. People want it. The way that they went
about it was disappointing, right, the cruelty behind it, your
(27:58):
colleagues within the White House, right.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
The White House.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
It was in the press, right, there were sources from
senior bificial leaks about me about oh my gosh, she
does it, she can't do the whatever. It was right,
And you know it was also they leaned into me
being a first They leaned into me as the communities
(28:25):
that I represented. It was cruel, it was mean, and
I again had to hold my tongue as you were
asking me that question.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
Why hold your tongue.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Because now that's more personal than anything else. Because I
didn't want to play the games. That's just more who
I am as a person. I'm not going to play
the game. So okay, I go after you in the press,
you come after me. It becomes a really ugly, nasty game.
And there was too much at stake. I had to
focus on the job at hand, and it's just not
who I am, just fundamentally who I am. Even when
(28:57):
the book was announced and things that were being said,
I kept quiet. I'm only starting to do interviews now
because the book is coming out, But I'm like, I
don't have to say anything until I want to say something.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
Can I ask you about process? How do you handle
tough questions?
Speaker 3 (29:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (29:12):
I was telling there's just a few people in the
country that have faced more difficult questions than you.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Well, well, I mean, look, I had a great team
that worked for me and prepared me.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Every day at the hour preparation.
Speaker 3 (29:28):
Oh four hours, at least four hours of preparation before
the press conference. The press briefing to be more specific,
so that mattered, like really being ready. And we always
had a sense, right, we always had a sense of
what reporters were thinking, what was on their minds, what
they wanted to ask us. So it's not like I
went into the briefing completely blind, right, I knew. We
(29:48):
always had a sense of what was coming at me.
Attitude it was, it was basically, never let them see
you sweat, right, never let them get under your skin.
And that is the name of the game, aim, Right,
there's always in the it's a game, right, you're going
back and forth, it's a volley, it's a gotcha. Their
job is to do the gotchas. Oh, we're going to
(30:10):
get her. We're going to get her or whoever is
at the post. And it's not just me, but it's
whoever is at the post circle.
Speaker 1 (30:16):
Yeah, you know because you've been on the other right, right,
you know exactly.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
You know when you've you've interviewed presidents and candidates and you.
Speaker 2 (30:25):
Wait for the weakness, for the moment, for the boss,
and then you attack you right, and you're on the
other side. That's why I'm asking.
Speaker 3 (30:31):
It's like it's like, you know, they and if they
and you know this, all right, if you sense blood.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
You go for it. You go for it immediately.
Speaker 3 (30:42):
Pounds right, and you and you are a good reporter
if you.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Just don't let up, so you wont at the end,
I'm saying so many I don't know how many press briefings,
but after you think you want.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
You, I don't.
Speaker 3 (30:57):
I survived, all right? How about that? I think I
think I survived, you know, And I think I think
the funny part to me is for those who were like,
who was saying, oh, you know, even the President doesn't
want her as press secretary, or who were saying, oh
she's so whatever.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
They were saying about so many really that you were
not prepared.
Speaker 3 (31:16):
Prepared, which is not true. Yeah, I outlasted some of
those people who went after me, right, I outlasted them.
The President made me a senior advisor a year ago.
He made me a senior advisor. You don't make people
senior advisors because you want them to go. You make
them senior advisors because I appreciate you so much and
(31:37):
I don't want you to go that I'm going to
give you an additional title as senior advisor. So I
feel that I more than survived. I prove them wrong.
And you know I'm not. That's not the point of
this tour, right I'm not like Chuck Bump. No, I
mean that truly isn't the point of the tour. The
point of the book and the book tour is to
(31:57):
really focus in and zero in in the moment that
we are in right now, because I am scared. I
am worried.
Speaker 1 (32:04):
What's rausy than most right now?
Speaker 3 (32:06):
I mean, look, you turn on the TV and you
hear about someone from someone's family is missing and they
don't know where they are, children being taken away, raids
happening everywhere across the country. That's scary. And if you're
not paying attention to that, then you're not paying attention
(32:30):
to what's happening in this country, and that's even more scary.
And I always believe, and I say this, and I'm
not like a brilliant person to say this. If they
come after one, they come after all. That is how
a democracy fails. That is how authoritarianism goes. It is chaos.
It is going after people and making people fearful. And
(32:53):
that's what they're doing. This is about a fear and
that is a thousand percent. Some people smarter than me
would say, you know, historians would say, we are in
an authoritarian regime in this moment. It certainly feels that
way when you are the most powerful person in the world,
(33:14):
certainly in this country, and you are sending military to
cities and making up reasons to send them to cities
so that they can do raids, so that they can
pull people over, so that they can take people just
randomly from the street. What is that? What is that?
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Well? I think you're I think you're taking the conversation there,
because I think the pretext for so much of what
we're seeing now begins in that twenty twenty four campaign trill,
when I think Republicans really weaponize the immigration border crisis
talking points right when they really paint President Biden as,
you know, someone that was unable to control the borders
(33:56):
and therefore, in their words, allow all these criminals and
gang members. But I think that's kind of the foundation
of everything that we're seeing now, know that rhetoric. Yeah,
So do you feel that Democrats lost the immigration debate?
Did they lose this election because of immigration?
Speaker 3 (34:13):
So? I think there are many reasons why they lost.
I think to hold it on one thing is probably
I think it was a vary end of the things.
It was a huge message. Look, we tried really really hard,
as you know, even to come up with a piece
of legislation that all sides would agree on, just to
get the conversation going on immigration. Republicans held it up
(34:35):
in the Senate and they weaponized it, like you said,
and it became a very ugly, disgusting rhetoric. And it's
a fear again, connecting the fear, the fear mongering of
a group of a citizenship of a group or migrants,
and it's disgusting. I felt it personally. Ohio, right Springfield, Ohio,
(34:57):
Haitians are eating dogs and cats. That is not true.
And they used that, they weaponized why to scare the
people in Ohio and Springfield, Ohio. And many people said,
even the mayor said, oh no, these migrants are actually
helping with the economy. They're actually good, they're doing good work.
We appreciate that they're there. But the leadership of the
(35:21):
Republican Party weaponized that. But we're seeing that across the board.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Put Democrats.
Speaker 3 (35:25):
I do though, I think, and this is why I
think we have to take I also have to take
accountability our messaging they took, they stole the messaging right,
They made us look like we were the bad guys,
and also used the community to fear mongering. So we
did not have the messages. We did not own the
messaging right. The economy, I mean, you can talk about
(35:45):
a lot of things where the economy was better, it
was getting better. Now. Obviously we were coming from COVID
twenty twenty where things were devastated, but people weren't feeling it,
and so and.
Speaker 2 (35:59):
The Democratic Party lacked a very clear message.
Speaker 3 (36:03):
Yeah, and I think.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
If you ask what do they believe in, it's difficult
just to say us, as you can say for Republicans
for instance.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
And that's the whole point of the book, right, that
really is That's what I was hearing. What you're saying
to me, Jorge, is what I was hearing from strangers.
Speaker 2 (36:17):
Exactly where were they like.
Speaker 3 (36:19):
Okay, but what's our messaging? Why aren't they fighting? What's happening?
It's like we's it's the giving up of power, but
they're not powerless. And so I think that is the fear.
That is the fear. We don't see them, we don't
see the Democratic Party out there fighting. We just don't
even look right now there's a shutdown, and I appreciate
(36:44):
the Democrats who are fighting this tooth and nail. My
heart goes out to federal workers who are suffering in
this moment, and that's real. They need their paycheck in
order to survive. And you have veterans, you have senior citizens,
you have many people who those programs that you need
they're not getting because of this government government shut down.
So it is hurting people. But in order for the
(37:07):
government to reopen, Republicans have to come to different Democrats.
They have to work with them.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
They're not going to though, and so we're that's the
scary part. The question is do Democrats have to make concessions.
Speaker 3 (37:19):
Look, I think in this moment they have to do
everything that they can to show the public the people.
I think what what has been forgotten is that it
is not about politics, is about doing something for people.
And they have to show a fight, and you have
to hold Republicans accountable and remind this is the messaging
you got to remind people. Republicans have the House, they
(37:42):
have the Senate, and they have the White House. This
is on them. And they have to be very clear
about that. Maybe they should go to a hospital and
do a press conference in front of a hospital that's
about to shut down. Right maybe, I mean like they're
ways there are things that they can be doing.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
There a Democrat to win your vote today.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Oh my gosh, it would take. It would take so
much more than right now. People ask about the trans issue,
and when you're throwing a community under the bus for
short term gain, that's a problem to me. Now. Civil
rights movement, human rights movement, there were things that were
(38:30):
not poll tested well, and it should not be about politics.
It should be about human rights.
Speaker 2 (38:35):
They get its, NA cannot give them.
Speaker 3 (38:40):
You cannot give up on immigrants. Migrants. This is what
this country is made of. And that's so those are
the things that are problematic to me. One of the
reasons I was part of this the Democratic Party for
so long is the big ten party. It doesn't matter
who you are, it doesn't matter even if we disagree.
(39:00):
In this party. We can disagree and listen to each other.
And but at the end of the day, we're all protected.
And that is I feel like that's missing, that is missing.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
We only have a couple of more minutes. Have you
been in touch with President Biden? He was diagnosed, of course,
with a pro state cancer. How's he doing?
Speaker 3 (39:21):
So he called me recently, a couple of weeks ago,
he called me out of the blue. I should be
calling him. He called me out of the blue to
check in on me, just to check in on me
and to see how I was doing. And you know,
we didn't talk about his diagnosis or anything like that.
It was literally him saying thank you to me, checking
(39:42):
in on me and making sure I was okay.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
What does he say about your book?
Speaker 3 (39:46):
We haven't talked about THEO. He will have a copy
of the book.
Speaker 1 (39:52):
What do you think his reaction will look?
Speaker 3 (39:54):
Look, he is someone who is very distinguished and a
a lifelong Democrat, and I think believes in the Democratic Party.
And so my guess is that he still believes in
the Democratic Party and everything that it is and what
he has fought for. I mean, he was, you know,
a senator, a vice president, president for more than fifty years,
(40:17):
so I think he probably would be like, look, I'm
a Democrat. I will always be a Democrat. And I'm like,
I hear you, I hear what you're saying, and I
hope that he would appreciate that I'm trying to be
as honest as I can and really being in the
moment and looking towards the future.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Do you think you'll lose any friends or colleagues because
of this book? Does that even matter?
Speaker 3 (40:39):
Do you know what I'll say, Paul, I'll say this.
I have been someone who has been under attacked and
criticized for a long long time. This is nothing new.
This is nothing new, and I do believe truly you
have to stand for something or you lose yourself. I
have a beautiful eleven year old daughter, and it matters
(41:01):
to me the type of country that we leave her
and her peers.
Speaker 2 (41:05):
You're fighting for her.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
I'm fighting for her.
Speaker 2 (41:08):
So thanks so much. By the way, how is Karlin living? Actually?
How is she doing?
Speaker 1 (41:16):
How do you greet her? And so objectively?
Speaker 3 (41:20):
I'm gonna be very honest. I have not watched one
of her briefings. I don't want That's how I I
You know, I am very much paying attention to what's
happening to my communities and and focused on that and
where we are as a No, I don't think she
would have though. I don't think she would have and
so more other people who are more qualified can speak
(41:40):
to to that.
Speaker 2 (41:42):
Thank you so much for talking to Thank you. I
appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Thank you, congratulations, thank you, thank you.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
The Moment is a production of Dan Moulante Studios and
partnership with Iheartmichael Dura podcast Network.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
Our stuff includes Daniel Santia Colonne. Lisa said that with
have help from Paula of Corso Natale Ramirez el Sally
lean u Joa. The CEO of Radio Bulante Studios is
Carolia Gerrero.
Speaker 1 (42:06):
Executive producers that I hear are Arlene Santana and Leo Romes.
Paulo Cabreda and Delen Nunger also serve as producers.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
If you like the moment, Pedro tamvien te Gustan podcasts
en Espanol, look for Radio and Bulante Historias de Toda
America Latina wherever you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (42:23):
Sound design, final mix and theme song by Elias Marsalez.
Speaker 2 (42:27):
I'm Corte Ramos and I'm Paula Ramas. Thanks for listening
to the moment.
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