December 17, 2025 • 44 mins
Bishop Mariann Budde made headlines when she called for mercy at President Trump’s 2025 inauguration. Today, she discusses how some Christian leaders have invoked faith to defend Trump’s harshest policies, what she is doing to protect her congregations from ICE, and why, even in times of fear and uncertainty, she says courage is contagious.
You can listen now on the free iHeartRadio app. New episodes drop every Wednesday.
The Moment is a production of Radio Ambulante Studios and iHeart's My Cultura Podcast Network.
Follow us at:
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Danielle Alarcon, executive producer of The Moment from Rayuan
Mulatte Studios. Over the past year, we've worked NonStop. We've
produced more content than ever. We've published thirty episodes of
Ryan Bulente this calendar year, and we're halfway through our
fifteenth season over at Elilo. In addition to our regular
weekly coverage, we produced our first series amasonas Alentro on
Central our series feed. We released La rutel Sol, and
(00:22):
then there's this show, our first English language video podcast,
The Moment. None of this happened by accident as part
of our commitment to keep moving forward, and none of
it would have been possible without listeners like you. Today,
five thousand people support our work with their donations to
ensure our sustainability. We need another five thousand to join.
We've given it our all. Now we're asking that if
it's within your means, you help us, because together we
(00:44):
keep going. Go to Rayummulante dot org slash donate Every donation,
no matter how big or small, helps and remember, if
you're in the US, your donations are tax deductible. Thank
you so much. Now here's the episode.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Well, I'm Porta Ramos and I'm Bara Ramos, and this
this is the moment. So in terms of struggle of
attacks of cruelty, when people are being called names like
(01:17):
stupid and garbage, when there's a possibility of war in Venezuela,
just the possibility, the question is how do we keep
faith alive? And what's the role of religious leaders in
these conflicts?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
And so I think there's two types of religious leaders
out there. Right, there's the type of religious leader that
is using this moment to embrace Donald Trump and to
push forward this type of Christian nationalist agenda. Because remember, right,
this is a president who has a lot of support
from Christians and evangelicals. But then there's the other side
(01:49):
of the story, on the other side of this community,
and there are people like Bishop Mary and Buddy, who
became completely viral during Donald Trump's second inauguration when as
she was delivering the sermon of his inauguration, she ended
her speech by asking Donald Trump to have mercy on
two key groups, to have mercy on immigrants and on
LGBTQ children. And so we're going to be speaking to
(02:12):
Bishop Mary and Buddy, who's been the Bishop of Washington,
DC since twenty eleven and who's also the first woman
ever to hold that role.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So we're going to talk about hope and faith with
Visho Boddy, who actually said that courage is contagious. When
we come back, Bishop Marian Buddy, welcome to the moment.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Thanks for joining.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Us, pless it. Thank you very much, Glad.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yes see, yes, but it's that idea. So Bishop, we
really really wanted to talk to you specifically before the
end of the year and as we're entering the holidays,
because I think a lot of our listeners and followers
are constantly wrestling with this question around how to hold
onto faith, know in faith meaning religious faith, and even
(02:59):
this idea of hope right, and I think we could
think of no better person that has this incredibly unique
insight into the type of role faith is playing, the
type of role of faith should play can play at
a time of national crisis. And so that's where I
would love to start with you. You know, when you
(03:19):
are having conversations with some parishioners and when they talk
to you about their loss, their fear, their traumas, what
do you tell them about the role of faith today.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
First of all, thank you for allowing me to be
with you and to be in conversation with you and
your larger audience. I would say first of all that
to be a person of faith, or to be a
person of hope never asks us to minimize or deny
our suffering and our pain. And that one of the
(03:53):
hardest lessons we learn in life, and we learn it
very young, and that is, to be a person of
faith doesn't usn't prevent terrible things from happening to us
and to those we love, that prevent us from living
through times of struggle. And so we live with the
promise that we are not alone, that we were created
(04:16):
by a God who loves us and who longs to
be with us, and who walks with us. And when
we are disappointed, or when we are afraid, or when
things don't turn out the way we had deeply hoped,
those are the moments when we are we are asked
to dig deep, draw deep, I should say, from the
(04:40):
wells of a different kind of faith or of hope
that doesn't depend so much on success or outcomes or
having things turn out the way we want, but to
believe in things that we know are good and right
and true, and that expand our capacity to love and
even to love amidst suffering. So it's a it's a
(05:03):
tender and appoignant kind of faith. But I think the
Christmas story is the perfect vehicle for that because while
we we we surround it with all the trappings of
glitter and jewel and love and peace. All those things
are true. But the story is about, you know, a
(05:25):
family on the margins of a of a of an
oppressed society, that were that were forced to leave their
town and go to another, and then to flee again.
So it is a story that brings solidarity and comfort
to us when we are when we are facing trials
of our own.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
And a familiar story, I should say, these days and.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Story and yes, a very I mean we can all.
I mean, we can see it happening all around us.
And so it's I mean, you'd wish, I would wish
for a God that made the easier for us, but
that's not the life we have, and it's not the
faith we've been given. But we have been given the
assurance of solidarity and the hope for a better day.
(06:10):
I mean, I really do believe that that God planted
that hope inside us. But God also asks us to
work toward the things that we long for and to
be people of peace and to be people of love.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
When when you talk Bishop, right, I feel like faith
sort of holds onto this idea to your point of
better days now, this idea that something better is at
the end of the tunnel our or on the other end.
But I'm curious if you have noticed a decline in
(06:43):
people's belief and hope these days. And the reason why
I ask you this because my dad and I are
constantly having these conversations around how so many immigrants are
losing faith in the American dream, and this constantly comes
up in conversation. So I'm curious on what you have noticed.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
Well, I think our hopes and our aspirations for this
country are taking a real hit right now. We are
all being faced with realities and ways of being and
behaviors that from the highest levels all the way through
the society that are just so disheartening and sometimes just
(07:30):
extraordinarily cruel. And so we again, we would be made
of stone not to feel the impact of that. Right,
How could we not feel that, particularly when this country
represented so much hope and aspiration for so many, and
that getting here was such a journey of hope for
so many, and so to have that dashed by people
(07:53):
who are first of all saying and saying terrible things
that are not true about the immigrant population, and then
using those falsehoods to justify all manner of action. So
I would say, yes, you have reason to have lost
hope in the illusion of the American dream right now
as it is being as this country is being led
(08:18):
and encouraged to respond to its most isolationist and impulse
and mean spirited impulses. It's not the first time in
American history. We have lived through time like this before,
and immigrants have been treated terribly in the past. And
so this is part of our story. It's not the
(08:40):
best part. It's the underbelly of the American story, and
we're seeing it now. And my only hope regarding this,
and it is a hope, is that the pendulum will
swing again. But it wants going on its own. It
needs people who are determined to say this is not
the vision of America that we believe is. It's certainly
(09:05):
not our better angels, as Abraham Link would say, and
it's actually not God's dream for us that we were
we were established and created for a much higher aspirational reality,
and and we've seen glimpses of it, and we can
go back to that, or we can create a new future.
But I'm afraid it's going to take a lot of
hard work, and many people are suffering.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Precisely because of what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
I have to ask you a question that I never
thought I would have to ask a religious person, and
is it.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Safe to go to your church? Is your church safe?
Speaker 5 (09:44):
Depends on who you are, right, depends on the color
of his skin. And we we are doing our very
best in the churches that have predominant immigrant populations or
where there are services where vulnerable people of all immigrant
or not gather, to ensure as much safety as we can.
(10:05):
We have people who are standing guard at the doors.
We have people who are managing we have people who
are delivering food as opposed to asking people to come
to places to receive food, and we're doing everything we
possibly can.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Well, you have guards, I'm sorry to interrupt them.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Not. We have volunteers. We have volunteers with skin that
look like mine who are just keeping guard on the
doors and making sure that if any you know, and
to see if if any official comes in that they
are that that people are warned and that there is
some manner of protection. So far, we haven't had anyone
(10:42):
come in from ICE or the police to interrupt a
church service, but people are afraid, and there have been
arrests in parking lots outside of churches where people were
lining up for food. And so we are we are
just doing everything we can, and it's I have, but
(11:03):
I have to tell you, the number of people who
are stepping up to do this work is is hardening.
We have more volunteers, frankly than we can use on
a given on a given weekend to sort of keep patrol,
to deliver food, to secure housing and childcare for people
(11:25):
who are now living in their cars. It is well,
you don't need me to tell you it's it is.
It's a heartbreaking time.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
And I'm assuming the number of people going to church
also has has diminished. But but I wonder, let me
just say on this, if ICE agents come to the church,
can you actually physically prevent them from coming in?
Speaker 5 (11:47):
No? Not leaked, No, not lethal, So.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
You have to allow them to come in.
Speaker 5 (11:52):
There was always an understanding that houses of worship and
schools and other places where social services were being offered.
We're not to be we're not we're not places where
ICE would go. But that was never inscribed in law.
It was always an understanding and the Trump administration has
done away with that. Now again, we haven't had ICE
(12:14):
officers come into a worship service, they haven't done that,
but they do congregate in parking lots and along the streets,
and or they have. It's now we saw this wave
in Washington, d C. A few a few months ago.
It's kind of receded now now it tends to be
more stopping people in their cars. And there was just
(12:38):
a lawsuit that was that was brought against that action
and a judge actually said, no, you can't do that,
and you can't stop people in their cars and arrest them.
But for every action that has to be fought in
the courts. As you know, there's just a brazen, brazenness
to the actions that are being taken.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
No, how do you build with this with the divisions
within the congregation. What happens if within the congregations you
have parishioners who truly believe that parishioners without legal stutules
should be detained, should be arrested is there a division
within the congregation.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
It's a really good question in my experience. Now keep
in mind, I'm a bishop, so I have about eighty
four congregations under my care, and I would say that
there is division in the wider diocese, the congregations that
have a significant immigrant population. There isn't that kind of
(13:41):
There isn't the same kind of division that I might
see in a congregation that is predominantly that predominantly of
the dominant white culture. Having said that, I have had
congregations with naturalized citizens who came through the immigration process
their mind legally, and there is some frustration with the
(14:03):
number of people who have come across the border, particularly
in the last couple of years. But I have to
say that's a very very small percentage of the people
who are attending our congregations. The vast majority are working
very hard to protect as many people as we can.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
We're going to take our work first break, but we'll
be back in just a moment. We're back in up
a conversation with Bishopbody Paula.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
So as we're finalizing the year and closing it out,
I would love for us to reflect and to look back,
and to look back at the moment when the entire
world suddenly knew exactly who you were. Now it's January twentieth,
and you are, of course delivering the sermon for President
Trump's inauguration, and you close out that speech by asking
(14:54):
him to show mercy, to show more mercy on LGBTQ children,
to show mercy on immigrants. And I think it's spirit
to say that the President Unites has not shown mercy.
But I wonder if you have been surprised at any
of his actions, or if in fact he simply confirmed
your deepest fears.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
What a good guy. I'm not sure how to answer that.
I think I've been stunned by the speed with which
these changes have occurred. And I've also been humbled by
the fact that it is not just the president but
a whole apparatus of people and institutions that are supporting him,
(15:37):
And so it's not one man, but a whole movement
that now has for the time being, virtually all the
reigns of political power and other institutional and other institutions
are falling in line. And so it's that to me
I think has been the most sobering and I would
(16:00):
say surprising in the sense that it would have been
impossible to imagine it until it happened. Having said that,
I am also heartened by the number of people who
are in dignified and matter of fact and ways small
and large, simply saying we believe in another reality, and
(16:23):
we believe in other values, and we will do it
whatever and whatever we can in our power, however that
is lived out to ensure that this season of our
life is not the defining one forever. And so it
has trying to protect as many people as we can,
(16:44):
to save as many institutions that are being dismantled as
we can, to put in place some of the steps
needed to reclaim some of the leavers of political power
so that we can we can stop stop some of
the damage that's being done. But I would say it
(17:06):
has been I'm not even shocked anymore. Every day I
read something and I can't even can't even muster up
the energy to be outraged. I just feel like, Okay,
here we.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Are, And I think that's the that's the fear, right,
Like what is the next iteration of this look like?
And I think in this show, and obviously in conversation
across the country, one spends so much time analyzing whether
or not the United States is slowly turning into a
type of authority and regime.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
There's there's a lot of conversation around that, and I'm
always left thinking about this idea of Christian nationalism, which
was a term that was tossed around during the election,
not so much now. But then I look at at
some elements of this administration, right, this idea that within
the White House there's an anti Christian biased task force.
This fact that you have someone like white that is
(18:01):
leading the White House Office of Faith, someone that has
said that the Black Lives Matter movement is quote, the
anti christ You have people like the Vice President of
the United States, Stephen Miller, the President himself, who correct
me if I wrung, I think, tend to cast some
of their policies as the sort of good versus evil warfare, right,
(18:26):
This idea that they are being called upon at times
they'll say the word God and to sort of implement
some of I think the most cruel policies that we've
seen in modern American history. And so when you take
a step back and you look at that, are you
afraid that there are people within the administration that are
trying to turn this country into a truly Christian nationalist nation.
(18:49):
And what are some of the warning sides that we
should be paying attention to.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
Wow, you've said a lot, and we described no, no, no,
I was with you every step of the way.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Head out.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
But let's just unpack a few things. First of all,
the alignment of a religion or religious leaders with political
power to justify certain directions of a country or you know,
is nothing new, right, It's been around since the beginning
of time, and Christianity has had horrific versions of this
(19:27):
all across the world, and we've had terrible expressions of
it in this country. So it's a resurgence of something
that's that's as old as the hills. However, to separate
that alignment of a particular worldview and a protection a
particular class of people who describe themselves as adherents to
(19:50):
a particular faith, as in fact, the faith itself is
the most egregious distortion of the faith. And if you notice,
these people almost never quote Jesus himself, right, sure, never,
because he never says the things that they say, ever,
(20:10):
and so they quote all kinds of obscure passages from scripture,
and you can find anything you want to in a
collection of documents that are, you know, ten thousand years old,
if you want. But it is not a lived expression
of an authentic faith rooted in the love and mercy
(20:30):
and forgiveness of Jesus. It's just not so. I just
I disassociate Christianity with this movement as I understand the faith.
I'm not saying that these people don't believe that they're Christian.
I'm just saying that the powers that they are aligning
with are decidedly hostile to the Christian message. So that's
just yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Before we move on from that, can I just ask you,
why then, does someone like Donald Trump have so much
support among Christians?
Speaker 5 (21:01):
Good question. It's something I wrestle with, and I wouldn't
I wouldn't pretend to tell you that I know the answer.
I listened hard, especially during the campaign. I listened to
him make all kinds of promises that I knew he
(21:22):
would be able to keep and he hasn't kept. And
he promised people the moon and back if they voted
for him. He also created common enemies, people who we
could blame for our misfortunes, and kept on saying all
manner of falsehoods that were then repeated and amplified by
(21:45):
a whole machine, a whole machinery of people, that of
mechanisms that keep all these falsehoods in the air. So
there is there is something to there's some accountability for
blatant dishonesty and abusive power. Why people in congregations across
(22:05):
this country find in Donald Trump and the movement that
he represents something that reminds them of the way of Jesus,
I cannot fully understand, although I am curious and I
am willing and eager to explore that. Of course, help
(22:26):
me reconcile what you're doing with the teachings of Jesus.
And when did you get the memo that our job
was to create a government that just protects Christians? I
mean that there is nothing in the Gospels that says
that we are to create a country that is safe
(22:46):
just for Christians, right that, in fact, it's the opposite.
It's for all people. You know, peace on earth, goodwill
towards all people. It's not. And whenever a faith, and
this is in this case it's Ristianity, in other parts
of the world it's other faiths. But when you imagine
that your role in the public square is to make
it safe for you at the expense of everybody else.
(23:10):
Then you are misusing your faith in the public arena,
which is meant, particularly in a dokment democracy, to serve
the common good.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
So let me stay with the conversation that you're having.
So what do you think about prominent pastors who have
publicly encouraged.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
To vote for Donald Trump?
Speaker 1 (23:30):
And the question is quite simple, is it on Christian
for a minister to publicly support Donald Trump?
Speaker 5 (23:40):
Is it un Christian? I that's a hard question for
me because if people who are Christian are supporting Donald Trump,
they have every right to support him as president. Right
where I draw the line is to say that it
would be un Christian not to support it would be
Unchristian and not to support him. Right that they that
(24:02):
that they associate him with some kind of divine status,
that is that is the only Christian response. I think
that's where we get into trouble, because then we're not
judging We're not judging him on him or his administration
on the needs. It's it's something else. And I so I,
(24:25):
you know, I I I worry that I've I I
may be in one on one conversation with people who
are genuine supporters of the direction he is taking this country.
I ask a lot of questions. I am curious, and
I don't mean to demonize anyone, but I do struggle
as I try to understand how to reconcile the dishonesty,
(24:51):
the concentration of wealth and power, the treatment of the
most vulnerable, the lack of investment in the very things
we need to create, not only a healthy education system,
healthcare system, but the health of the planet. Why we would,
you know, why we would strip all of that away
and still believe that this is a God ordained movement.
(25:15):
I I just don't see the evidence.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
So so maybe I made Maybe my question was way
too too broad. So let me try just to give
you an example. The vast majority of people supporting Donald
Trump are a religious people, and now that everybody is
talking about the possibility of war in Venezuela, that the
question is from a religious point of view? Is war
ever justified?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Hard hitting questions? JAP.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Sorry now, but that's well.
Speaker 5 (25:50):
Let me let me just say this war is not
justified in Venezuela. Just be very clear about that. It's
a It is it is. What's happening, what's happening in
the waters off the shores of South America is criminal. Now,
(26:14):
I'm not going to go so far as to say
that war is never justified, although I believe Jesus was
a pacifist, is a pacifist, and probably the truest Christian,
the purest Christian expression, would be complete and total pacifism.
I'm just not sure when I look historically at the
(26:35):
rise of the most truly horrific political and social movements,
if military force isn't it sometimes necessary? But again I'm
not an expert on that, and I'm humbled by it.
It breaks my heart even to say it. But I
can say that an unjust war fought for dubious and
dishonest reasons is.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Wrongolute we have to take another greape, but we'll be
right back. And now we continue our conversation with Bishop
Body Paula.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
So, I'm going to be completely honest, Biship so as
a queer woman, and it is true that at times
I myself in the past have not always felt the
most comfortable in some religious spaces right for obvious reasons.
And so one of the things though that I have
long admired about you in your career is the fact that,
(27:32):
as you've written extensively and throughout your life and obviously
in your most recent books, like you have always had
the courage to stand up for marginalized communities, and you've
always done that, whether it's immigrants or LGBTQ people. And
I think a lot of people also forget when talking
about you that in twenty eighteen you actually oversaw the
(27:53):
interment of Matthew Shepherd's remains at the National Cathedral, which
was of course a huge, huge moment in LGBTQ history.
And for those listeners that don't remember shepperd, obviously he
was brutally murdered in nineteen ninety eight, and I think
to this day it's one of the most high profile
hate crimes in history, right. And so I've been thinking
(28:15):
a lot about this, and particularly as you were talking
about some of the more personal conversations that you have
with say, President Trump supporters, and I've been thinking about
how you are able to approach conversations about LGBTQ people,
particularly let's say trans people, know such a villainized community.
(28:37):
And I have the most simple question for you, which is,
how do you do that. Now, how do you humanize
such a quote, you know, controversial segment of the population
to some of these folks.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
Not successfully all the time, obviously, but I would say
that you said it in the question which is humanized,
it's of humanity, and it's it's a question of seeing
in someone someone else their full humanity and and to
(29:13):
and to understand that we were all we've we all
are raised in societies that have taught us certain things
about what it meant, what it what it means to
be an acceptable human being, right, or a human being
that is, you know, whatever whatever, whatever, being a good
(29:35):
person is. And and the struggle for the l g
B t Q population of this world to be recognized
and and embraced and celebrated for who they are has
been has been the story of my adult life, right,
especially in the church, the church that I served. We
didn't get there overnight, right, This was a long struggle.
(29:58):
And the way it happens is through relationships. Right, It
happens through relationships. And when it's your friend or your daughter,
or your son, or your mother or your dad, you know,
I mean, it just changes the way you see an
abstract issue, right, It's not an issue, it's human being
(30:19):
and that then then you begin to have different questions
and different conversations about how how this can be and
and in the end you don't need to have all
the answers. The the The bottom line is do I
do I love this person? Do I will? I will
I embrace this person as a fellow human being? And
(30:41):
I say the same thing about the people with whom
I vehemently disagree on all of these issues, right, the
same the same approach.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
You know.
Speaker 5 (30:49):
It's just like, can I see them as human beings?
And so I when I am at my best and
I'm not always, it's in it's asking God to show
me how God loves the person in front of me,
and how I am to serve that person as if
(31:10):
that person were Christ himself. Right, and then also to
learn their story, to learn their stories, and one you
know a person's story and you learn about them in
a deep way. You don't have to agree with everything.
I have to understand everything. It might still be foreign
to you, their way of living, their loving I mean
(31:33):
fill in the blanks, right, But to say, okay, now
there are some things I would say, you know, I
draw some lines somewhere not all behavior, not all ways
of being are are in my view, morally acceptable. And
what I mean by that is like violence or abuse
or dehumanization. There are some lines we have to draw
that say, yeah, you can have your opinions, you can
(31:54):
have your perspectives, but you don't get to you don't
get to trample on other people's dignity. Right. That that's
that's kind of a that's a that's a line not
not about your being but about your behavior. Right. And
the way the church changed, My church changed is because
you know, we had, we we raised kids who came
(32:15):
out as queer and it's like, okay, they were baptized,
they were part of our church, they were you know,
they were they were you know, and and it was
this part of our humanity. And they they were the
ones who said to me, do you see that I
belong here? Not not will you let me belong here?
But it's like can you I belong here? And I
(32:37):
feel like that's the question, not will we let people belong?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
But that different framing.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Yeah, it's such a different framing. It's not we're going
to let you in. It's like, no, you already belong
and it's up to us to change our lenses. And
that's how I feel about the immigrant I just came
back from Minnesota, right, And you heard the President said
about Somali people, right, and that whole that that Minnesota
has the largest Somali population in the United States? Right?
(33:06):
And was that an easy transition for people to immigrate
from Somalia to Minnesota. No, but they are now now
just an integral part that population is integral part of
our society. And so they belong. We don't. We don't
give them belonging.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
They're here, they're here, you know some I'll speak for myself, right,
I I because I I throughout my life. Right, It's
I still think it is rare. No, it's a fine
religious figures sort of protecting the LGBTQ community, accepting telling
folks like myself that that we belong. And I think
many would say, right that that is an act of courage, right,
(33:46):
that that is that that is that it is very brave, No,
for for people like yourself to do something like that.
And I do you think that that courage is contagious?
Speaker 6 (33:57):
Right?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
In other words, have some of your colleagues followed your
lead since you've been standing up for queer people and immigrants.
Have you noticed that ripple effect.
Speaker 5 (34:10):
Well, let me first of all say that I'd absolutely
believe the courage is contagious, and I draw courage from
other people, right like you need to know that. One
of the reasons that I had the courage to say
what I did in January was because I had read
a statement that a group of Roman Catholic bishops had
said in California about their stance regarding the immigrant micropopulation
(34:34):
of California, and I was really inspired by their courage,
and I thought, you know what, that's That's the kind
of religious leader I want. I want to be like them,
right to I want to be like them. I mean,
it was so slow going for so long, and then
there was such progress, like lightning speed progress, it seemed
(34:54):
like when marriage was finally legalized and there was just
all of this acceptance and to see that roaded now
in some parts of the country is it's heartbreaking. But
it's also like, yeah, we're not you know, we're just
not going back there, and so you want to you go,
but not not me, and that and I do think
(35:18):
that others, you know, we pass it along like some
days I might have the courage and then I falter
because of whatever. Right, but then you might have it
or we'll hear somebody else and we'll just kind of
because it's communal, it's like it's like electricity. It passes
the strength and numbers, its strengthen numbers. But it's also
just this mysterious thing, right, this mystery that we we
(35:41):
have this thing and it it keeps us. It's like hope,
it's just it's just we can't. It's like a survival thing.
We're just not We're just not wired to let it go.
But not all of us can do it all the time,
which so it's nice to nice to be able to
lean on each other.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Right, yeah, answer, But we know that you lived in
in Nonduras and obviously you.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
Pio and what else did you learn in Okay? Prendi
la p l spirit mano ladi la lah in Hustisia
profunda Theresa total broke my heart. I've never seen poverty
(36:37):
that they contributor or construi basada and loso the total pueblo.
I mean, I don't I don't know how to say it,
but I just saw the results of a of a
country is so polarized between rich and poor, and I
that you know, we're seeing more and more of that here.
(36:59):
I learned joy a liegria. I learned how to dance really,
you know, well, some really good did rave and they
(37:21):
need elispiri do they see? So they sail, they they
they are serbien, they are abore you as who is
familias told all of it. It was just it was
the hardest thing I've ever done. I mean, I was there.
I was very young when I was there. And we
(37:43):
still have god children that we support and and we
see I work with a lot. I worked with a
lot of news here in Washington, a lot of hunter
and immigrants in Washington.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
And I can tell that experience really really marked you
and most likely really marked yeah, the rest of your career.
Speaker 6 (38:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:03):
I actually thought I would I would stay there. I
would I would spend my ordained ministry there. But but
that was not to be. And and and so I'm here,
you know, And but I happened to live in a
part of the world where, you know, there's such a
strong concentration of Latino Spanic people from all over the
(38:25):
Spanish speaking world, and and now third and fourth generation
you know, people who have really made their lungs here,
as well as the wave of immigrants that have come
up late.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
We have two more questions for you, and that's it.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
I am maybe to to actually know this, this has
actually been I was about to say to end on
a positive note, but I but you have given us
hope and faith actually throughout this conversation, so I will
reframe my question.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Okay, But but.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
I do think it is a time when a lot
of people obviously feel scared. There's so much mistrust and
government in the system. I am you know, you have
countless people that are thinking of leaving this country altogether.
But when you think of yourself, how do you how
(39:19):
do you find the courage to still trust God and
perhaps most importantly, to trust yourself? And in a moment
like the one we're living in right now.
Speaker 5 (39:31):
You know, there's a story in the Gospels where Jesus
is praying and it's it's kind of like the Garden
of gsemone, but it's different, and he basically says something
to the effect of, now my heart is troubled, and
what should I say? Spare me from this hour? And
instead of saying, let this cut past me, this is
from the Gospel of John. He says, no, it is
(39:54):
for this reason that I have come to this hour.
And I hear in that a wreck ignition that sometimes
we don't choose the times that we are living in,
but we do choose how we respond. I would give
anything not to be living in the time we're living
in right now. I would love for this to be
for us to be having a completely different conversation, but
(40:16):
we're not. And I'm in a position where I I
this is like my this is my time. I don't
have any I'm here, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not
going to I'm not going to let discouragement or cynicism
or bitterness get in my way. I'm going to just
keep on holding what we believe to be true and
(40:38):
right and good and work for a better day. Whether
or not we're successful, We're just going to keep going.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
So my final question, if you don't mind, it's going
to it's a personal question.
Speaker 5 (40:51):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
I know that you've written about miracles, and you're probably
closest to God then than many other people. So I
am agnostic.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
I have no faith.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
I wish I could have faith, but I have to
be honest to myself, and I have no faith.
Speaker 4 (41:13):
So what happens when we die.
Speaker 5 (41:16):
I don't know, but I know that, But I know,
I'm I believe that we can trust that on the
other side we will be met by love. I also
believe that there is more waiting for us. But what
that is and what it will be like, I cannot say.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
But you're convinced that there's an afterlife, that there's something
after this that we're not going.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
To be just started.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
I have my I mean, I can't prove it. I can't.
It's something I'm willing to stake. I'm willing to believe
it in the sense that I'm willing I'm giving. I've
I've seen enough I should say to believe that this
is not the end, and that there is consciousness. What
(42:09):
form it takes, what awaits us, I don't know. But
I also know that it's not healthy to dwell too
much on what's on the other side while we have
life to live now. Now, when it's our time, and
I've sat with many people who have crossed over from
(42:30):
this life to whatever awaits us on the other side,
then then we surrender to it. And it's a very
poignant and courageous thing to do. We'll all do it,
then we embrace it. But until then, I think our
task is to choose life as Scripture says, to choose
life and to and to work for whatever we imagine
(42:54):
God's desire would be. You know, Jesus said on you know,
pray for the kingdom to be here, you know, on earth,
as it doesn't happen, to do that work now, that's
our best way for preparing for whatever lies on the
other side. And even if there's nothing, you know, even
if I'm wrong, I I will live this way until
(43:15):
the day I die, and trust that that will not
have been in vain.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Be sure, this has been a wonderful conversation. So thank
you so much. Thank you.
Speaker 6 (43:25):
The Moon is a production Bante Studios in partnership with
Iheart's Michael Tura podcast network. Our staff includes Dayel larcon
La and Santeo Colon, with help from Paolan Devo Corso,
La Tella Ramirez and Elsa Oya. The CEO of Raande
(43:46):
Studios is Na Guerrero. Executive producers at Our Heart r
Urwin Santana and Leo Gollz, Paolo Carrera, Dylan Unger and
Mark Cannon also serve as producers, so design final mix
and theme song by and Theasbon Silence. Our hosts are
Jorjya Ramos and Paula Ramos. If you like this episode,
(44:10):
please share the work recommend the moment to anyone who
might enjoy unpacking these complicated times with us. We're heading
into a short holiday break, but we'll be back with
more episodes on January seventh. In the meantime, check out
Radiant Studios. Our shows Rabie, Ilo and Centran are really
(44:31):
worth a lesson and Lisa Serba thanks for listening.
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
I'm Danielle Alarcon, executive producer of The Moment from Rayuan
Mulatte Studios. Over the past year, we've worked NonStop. We've
produced more content than ever. We've published thirty episodes of
Ryan Bulente this calendar year, and we're halfway through our
fifteenth season over at Elilo. In addition to our regular
weekly coverage, we produced our first series amasonas Alentro on
Central our series feed. We released La rutel Sol, and
(00:22):
then there's this show, our first English language video podcast,
The Moment. None of this happened by accident as part
of our commitment to keep moving forward, and none of
it would have been possible without listeners like you. Today,
five thousand people support our work with their donations to
ensure our sustainability. We need another five thousand to join.
We've given it our all. Now we're asking that if
it's within your means, you help us, because together we
(00:44):
keep going. Go to Rayummulante dot org slash donate Every donation,
no matter how big or small, helps and remember, if
you're in the US, your donations are tax deductible. Thank
you so much. Now here's the episode.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Well, I'm Porta Ramos and I'm Bara Ramos, and this
this is the moment. So in terms of struggle of
attacks of cruelty, when people are being called names like
(01:17):
stupid and garbage, when there's a possibility of war in Venezuela,
just the possibility, the question is how do we keep
faith alive? And what's the role of religious leaders in
these conflicts?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
And so I think there's two types of religious leaders
out there. Right, there's the type of religious leader that
is using this moment to embrace Donald Trump and to
push forward this type of Christian nationalist agenda. Because remember, right,
this is a president who has a lot of support
from Christians and evangelicals. But then there's the other side
(01:49):
of the story, on the other side of this community,
and there are people like Bishop Mary and Buddy, who
became completely viral during Donald Trump's second inauguration when as
she was delivering the sermon of his inauguration, she ended
her speech by asking Donald Trump to have mercy on
two key groups, to have mercy on immigrants and on
LGBTQ children. And so we're going to be speaking to
(02:12):
Bishop Mary and Buddy, who's been the Bishop of Washington,
DC since twenty eleven and who's also the first woman
ever to hold that role.
Speaker 1 (02:20):
So we're going to talk about hope and faith with
Visho Boddy, who actually said that courage is contagious. When
we come back, Bishop Marian Buddy, welcome to the moment.
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Thanks for joining.
Speaker 5 (02:35):
Us, pless it. Thank you very much, Glad.
Speaker 3 (02:38):
Yes see, yes, but it's that idea. So Bishop, we
really really wanted to talk to you specifically before the
end of the year and as we're entering the holidays,
because I think a lot of our listeners and followers
are constantly wrestling with this question around how to hold
onto faith, know in faith meaning religious faith, and even
(02:59):
this idea of hope right, and I think we could
think of no better person that has this incredibly unique
insight into the type of role faith is playing, the
type of role of faith should play can play at
a time of national crisis. And so that's where I
would love to start with you. You know, when you
(03:19):
are having conversations with some parishioners and when they talk
to you about their loss, their fear, their traumas, what
do you tell them about the role of faith today.
Speaker 5 (03:31):
First of all, thank you for allowing me to be
with you and to be in conversation with you and
your larger audience. I would say first of all that
to be a person of faith, or to be a
person of hope never asks us to minimize or deny
our suffering and our pain. And that one of the
(03:53):
hardest lessons we learn in life, and we learn it
very young, and that is, to be a person of
faith doesn't usn't prevent terrible things from happening to us
and to those we love, that prevent us from living
through times of struggle. And so we live with the
promise that we are not alone, that we were created
(04:16):
by a God who loves us and who longs to
be with us, and who walks with us. And when
we are disappointed, or when we are afraid, or when
things don't turn out the way we had deeply hoped,
those are the moments when we are we are asked
to dig deep, draw deep, I should say, from the
(04:40):
wells of a different kind of faith or of hope
that doesn't depend so much on success or outcomes or
having things turn out the way we want, but to
believe in things that we know are good and right
and true, and that expand our capacity to love and
even to love amidst suffering. So it's a it's a
(05:03):
tender and appoignant kind of faith. But I think the
Christmas story is the perfect vehicle for that because while
we we we surround it with all the trappings of
glitter and jewel and love and peace. All those things
are true. But the story is about, you know, a
(05:25):
family on the margins of a of a of an
oppressed society, that were that were forced to leave their
town and go to another, and then to flee again.
So it is a story that brings solidarity and comfort
to us when we are when we are facing trials
of our own.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
And a familiar story, I should say, these days and.
Speaker 5 (05:47):
Story and yes, a very I mean we can all.
I mean, we can see it happening all around us.
And so it's I mean, you'd wish, I would wish
for a God that made the easier for us, but
that's not the life we have, and it's not the
faith we've been given. But we have been given the
assurance of solidarity and the hope for a better day.
(06:10):
I mean, I really do believe that that God planted
that hope inside us. But God also asks us to
work toward the things that we long for and to
be people of peace and to be people of love.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
When when you talk Bishop, right, I feel like faith
sort of holds onto this idea to your point of
better days now, this idea that something better is at
the end of the tunnel our or on the other end.
But I'm curious if you have noticed a decline in
(06:43):
people's belief and hope these days. And the reason why
I ask you this because my dad and I are
constantly having these conversations around how so many immigrants are
losing faith in the American dream, and this constantly comes
up in conversation. So I'm curious on what you have noticed.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
Well, I think our hopes and our aspirations for this
country are taking a real hit right now. We are
all being faced with realities and ways of being and
behaviors that from the highest levels all the way through
the society that are just so disheartening and sometimes just
(07:30):
extraordinarily cruel. And so we again, we would be made
of stone not to feel the impact of that. Right,
How could we not feel that, particularly when this country
represented so much hope and aspiration for so many, and
that getting here was such a journey of hope for
so many, and so to have that dashed by people
(07:53):
who are first of all saying and saying terrible things
that are not true about the immigrant population, and then
using those falsehoods to justify all manner of action. So
I would say, yes, you have reason to have lost
hope in the illusion of the American dream right now
as it is being as this country is being led
(08:18):
and encouraged to respond to its most isolationist and impulse
and mean spirited impulses. It's not the first time in
American history. We have lived through time like this before,
and immigrants have been treated terribly in the past. And
so this is part of our story. It's not the
(08:40):
best part. It's the underbelly of the American story, and
we're seeing it now. And my only hope regarding this,
and it is a hope, is that the pendulum will
swing again. But it wants going on its own. It
needs people who are determined to say this is not
the vision of America that we believe is. It's certainly
(09:05):
not our better angels, as Abraham Link would say, and
it's actually not God's dream for us that we were
we were established and created for a much higher aspirational reality,
and and we've seen glimpses of it, and we can
go back to that, or we can create a new future.
But I'm afraid it's going to take a lot of
hard work, and many people are suffering.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
Precisely because of what you're saying.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
I have to ask you a question that I never
thought I would have to ask a religious person, and
is it.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
Safe to go to your church? Is your church safe?
Speaker 5 (09:44):
Depends on who you are, right, depends on the color
of his skin. And we we are doing our very
best in the churches that have predominant immigrant populations or
where there are services where vulnerable people of all immigrant
or not gather, to ensure as much safety as we can.
(10:05):
We have people who are standing guard at the doors.
We have people who are managing we have people who
are delivering food as opposed to asking people to come
to places to receive food, and we're doing everything we
possibly can.
Speaker 4 (10:18):
Well, you have guards, I'm sorry to interrupt them.
Speaker 5 (10:20):
Not. We have volunteers. We have volunteers with skin that
look like mine who are just keeping guard on the
doors and making sure that if any you know, and
to see if if any official comes in that they
are that that people are warned and that there is
some manner of protection. So far, we haven't had anyone
(10:42):
come in from ICE or the police to interrupt a
church service, but people are afraid, and there have been
arrests in parking lots outside of churches where people were
lining up for food. And so we are we are
just doing everything we can, and it's I have, but
(11:03):
I have to tell you, the number of people who
are stepping up to do this work is is hardening.
We have more volunteers, frankly than we can use on
a given on a given weekend to sort of keep patrol,
to deliver food, to secure housing and childcare for people
(11:25):
who are now living in their cars. It is well,
you don't need me to tell you it's it is.
It's a heartbreaking time.
Speaker 1 (11:34):
And I'm assuming the number of people going to church
also has has diminished. But but I wonder, let me
just say on this, if ICE agents come to the church,
can you actually physically prevent them from coming in?
Speaker 5 (11:47):
No? Not leaked, No, not lethal, So.
Speaker 4 (11:50):
You have to allow them to come in.
Speaker 5 (11:52):
There was always an understanding that houses of worship and
schools and other places where social services were being offered.
We're not to be we're not we're not places where
ICE would go. But that was never inscribed in law.
It was always an understanding and the Trump administration has
done away with that. Now again, we haven't had ICE
(12:14):
officers come into a worship service, they haven't done that,
but they do congregate in parking lots and along the streets,
and or they have. It's now we saw this wave
in Washington, d C. A few a few months ago.
It's kind of receded now now it tends to be
more stopping people in their cars. And there was just
(12:38):
a lawsuit that was that was brought against that action
and a judge actually said, no, you can't do that,
and you can't stop people in their cars and arrest them.
But for every action that has to be fought in
the courts. As you know, there's just a brazen, brazenness
to the actions that are being taken.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
No, how do you build with this with the divisions
within the congregation. What happens if within the congregations you
have parishioners who truly believe that parishioners without legal stutules
should be detained, should be arrested is there a division
within the congregation.
Speaker 5 (13:18):
It's a really good question in my experience. Now keep
in mind, I'm a bishop, so I have about eighty
four congregations under my care, and I would say that
there is division in the wider diocese, the congregations that
have a significant immigrant population. There isn't that kind of
(13:41):
There isn't the same kind of division that I might
see in a congregation that is predominantly that predominantly of
the dominant white culture. Having said that, I have had
congregations with naturalized citizens who came through the immigration process
their mind legally, and there is some frustration with the
(14:03):
number of people who have come across the border, particularly
in the last couple of years. But I have to
say that's a very very small percentage of the people
who are attending our congregations. The vast majority are working
very hard to protect as many people as we can.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
We're going to take our work first break, but we'll
be back in just a moment. We're back in up
a conversation with Bishopbody Paula.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
So as we're finalizing the year and closing it out,
I would love for us to reflect and to look back,
and to look back at the moment when the entire
world suddenly knew exactly who you were. Now it's January twentieth,
and you are, of course delivering the sermon for President
Trump's inauguration, and you close out that speech by asking
(14:54):
him to show mercy, to show more mercy on LGBTQ children,
to show mercy on immigrants. And I think it's spirit
to say that the President Unites has not shown mercy.
But I wonder if you have been surprised at any
of his actions, or if in fact he simply confirmed
your deepest fears.
Speaker 5 (15:16):
What a good guy. I'm not sure how to answer that.
I think I've been stunned by the speed with which
these changes have occurred. And I've also been humbled by
the fact that it is not just the president but
a whole apparatus of people and institutions that are supporting him,
(15:37):
And so it's not one man, but a whole movement
that now has for the time being, virtually all the
reigns of political power and other institutional and other institutions
are falling in line. And so it's that to me
I think has been the most sobering and I would
(16:00):
say surprising in the sense that it would have been
impossible to imagine it until it happened. Having said that,
I am also heartened by the number of people who
are in dignified and matter of fact and ways small
and large, simply saying we believe in another reality, and
(16:23):
we believe in other values, and we will do it
whatever and whatever we can in our power, however that
is lived out to ensure that this season of our
life is not the defining one forever. And so it
has trying to protect as many people as we can,
(16:44):
to save as many institutions that are being dismantled as
we can, to put in place some of the steps
needed to reclaim some of the leavers of political power
so that we can we can stop stop some of
the damage that's being done. But I would say it
(17:06):
has been I'm not even shocked anymore. Every day I
read something and I can't even can't even muster up
the energy to be outraged. I just feel like, Okay,
here we.
Speaker 3 (17:17):
Are, And I think that's the that's the fear, right,
Like what is the next iteration of this look like?
And I think in this show, and obviously in conversation
across the country, one spends so much time analyzing whether
or not the United States is slowly turning into a
type of authority and regime.
Speaker 6 (17:38):
Right.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
There's there's a lot of conversation around that, and I'm
always left thinking about this idea of Christian nationalism, which
was a term that was tossed around during the election,
not so much now. But then I look at at
some elements of this administration, right, this idea that within
the White House there's an anti Christian biased task force.
This fact that you have someone like white that is
(18:01):
leading the White House Office of Faith, someone that has
said that the Black Lives Matter movement is quote, the
anti christ You have people like the Vice President of
the United States, Stephen Miller, the President himself, who correct
me if I wrung, I think, tend to cast some
of their policies as the sort of good versus evil warfare, right,
(18:26):
This idea that they are being called upon at times
they'll say the word God and to sort of implement
some of I think the most cruel policies that we've
seen in modern American history. And so when you take
a step back and you look at that, are you
afraid that there are people within the administration that are
trying to turn this country into a truly Christian nationalist nation.
(18:49):
And what are some of the warning sides that we
should be paying attention to.
Speaker 5 (18:55):
Wow, you've said a lot, and we described no, no, no,
I was with you every step of the way.
Speaker 3 (19:03):
Head out.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
But let's just unpack a few things. First of all,
the alignment of a religion or religious leaders with political
power to justify certain directions of a country or you know,
is nothing new, right, It's been around since the beginning
of time, and Christianity has had horrific versions of this
(19:27):
all across the world, and we've had terrible expressions of
it in this country. So it's a resurgence of something
that's that's as old as the hills. However, to separate
that alignment of a particular worldview and a protection a
particular class of people who describe themselves as adherents to
(19:50):
a particular faith, as in fact, the faith itself is
the most egregious distortion of the faith. And if you notice,
these people almost never quote Jesus himself, right, sure, never,
because he never says the things that they say, ever,
(20:10):
and so they quote all kinds of obscure passages from scripture,
and you can find anything you want to in a
collection of documents that are, you know, ten thousand years old,
if you want. But it is not a lived expression
of an authentic faith rooted in the love and mercy
(20:30):
and forgiveness of Jesus. It's just not so. I just
I disassociate Christianity with this movement as I understand the faith.
I'm not saying that these people don't believe that they're Christian.
I'm just saying that the powers that they are aligning
with are decidedly hostile to the Christian message. So that's
just yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Before we move on from that, can I just ask you,
why then, does someone like Donald Trump have so much
support among Christians?
Speaker 5 (21:01):
Good question. It's something I wrestle with, and I wouldn't
I wouldn't pretend to tell you that I know the answer.
I listened hard, especially during the campaign. I listened to
him make all kinds of promises that I knew he
(21:22):
would be able to keep and he hasn't kept. And
he promised people the moon and back if they voted
for him. He also created common enemies, people who we
could blame for our misfortunes, and kept on saying all
manner of falsehoods that were then repeated and amplified by
(21:45):
a whole machine, a whole machinery of people, that of
mechanisms that keep all these falsehoods in the air. So
there is there is something to there's some accountability for
blatant dishonesty and abusive power. Why people in congregations across
(22:05):
this country find in Donald Trump and the movement that
he represents something that reminds them of the way of Jesus,
I cannot fully understand, although I am curious and I
am willing and eager to explore that. Of course, help
(22:26):
me reconcile what you're doing with the teachings of Jesus.
And when did you get the memo that our job
was to create a government that just protects Christians? I
mean that there is nothing in the Gospels that says
that we are to create a country that is safe
(22:46):
just for Christians, right that, in fact, it's the opposite.
It's for all people. You know, peace on earth, goodwill
towards all people. It's not. And whenever a faith, and
this is in this case it's Ristianity, in other parts
of the world it's other faiths. But when you imagine
that your role in the public square is to make
it safe for you at the expense of everybody else.
(23:10):
Then you are misusing your faith in the public arena,
which is meant, particularly in a dokment democracy, to serve
the common good.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
So let me stay with the conversation that you're having.
So what do you think about prominent pastors who have
publicly encouraged.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
To vote for Donald Trump?
Speaker 1 (23:30):
And the question is quite simple, is it on Christian
for a minister to publicly support Donald Trump?
Speaker 5 (23:40):
Is it un Christian? I that's a hard question for
me because if people who are Christian are supporting Donald Trump,
they have every right to support him as president. Right
where I draw the line is to say that it
would be un Christian not to support it would be
Unchristian and not to support him. Right that they that
(24:02):
that they associate him with some kind of divine status,
that is that is the only Christian response. I think
that's where we get into trouble, because then we're not
judging We're not judging him on him or his administration
on the needs. It's it's something else. And I so I,
(24:25):
you know, I I I worry that I've I I
may be in one on one conversation with people who
are genuine supporters of the direction he is taking this country.
I ask a lot of questions. I am curious, and
I don't mean to demonize anyone, but I do struggle
as I try to understand how to reconcile the dishonesty,
(24:51):
the concentration of wealth and power, the treatment of the
most vulnerable, the lack of investment in the very things
we need to create, not only a healthy education system,
healthcare system, but the health of the planet. Why we would,
you know, why we would strip all of that away
and still believe that this is a God ordained movement.
(25:15):
I I just don't see the evidence.
Speaker 1 (25:18):
So so maybe I made Maybe my question was way
too too broad. So let me try just to give
you an example. The vast majority of people supporting Donald
Trump are a religious people, and now that everybody is
talking about the possibility of war in Venezuela, that the
question is from a religious point of view? Is war
ever justified?
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Hard hitting questions? JAP.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
Sorry now, but that's well.
Speaker 5 (25:50):
Let me let me just say this war is not
justified in Venezuela. Just be very clear about that. It's
a It is it is. What's happening, what's happening in
the waters off the shores of South America is criminal. Now,
(26:14):
I'm not going to go so far as to say
that war is never justified, although I believe Jesus was
a pacifist, is a pacifist, and probably the truest Christian,
the purest Christian expression, would be complete and total pacifism.
I'm just not sure when I look historically at the
(26:35):
rise of the most truly horrific political and social movements,
if military force isn't it sometimes necessary? But again I'm
not an expert on that, and I'm humbled by it.
It breaks my heart even to say it. But I
can say that an unjust war fought for dubious and
dishonest reasons is.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
Wrongolute we have to take another greape, but we'll be
right back. And now we continue our conversation with Bishop
Body Paula.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
So, I'm going to be completely honest, Biship so as
a queer woman, and it is true that at times
I myself in the past have not always felt the
most comfortable in some religious spaces right for obvious reasons.
And so one of the things though that I have
long admired about you in your career is the fact that,
(27:32):
as you've written extensively and throughout your life and obviously
in your most recent books, like you have always had
the courage to stand up for marginalized communities, and you've
always done that, whether it's immigrants or LGBTQ people. And
I think a lot of people also forget when talking
about you that in twenty eighteen you actually oversaw the
(27:53):
interment of Matthew Shepherd's remains at the National Cathedral, which
was of course a huge, huge moment in LGBTQ history.
And for those listeners that don't remember shepperd, obviously he
was brutally murdered in nineteen ninety eight, and I think
to this day it's one of the most high profile
hate crimes in history, right. And so I've been thinking
(28:15):
a lot about this, and particularly as you were talking
about some of the more personal conversations that you have
with say, President Trump supporters, and I've been thinking about
how you are able to approach conversations about LGBTQ people,
particularly let's say trans people, know such a villainized community.
(28:37):
And I have the most simple question for you, which is,
how do you do that. Now, how do you humanize
such a quote, you know, controversial segment of the population
to some of these folks.
Speaker 5 (28:51):
Not successfully all the time, obviously, but I would say
that you said it in the question which is humanized,
it's of humanity, and it's it's a question of seeing
in someone someone else their full humanity and and to
(29:13):
and to understand that we were all we've we all
are raised in societies that have taught us certain things
about what it meant, what it what it means to
be an acceptable human being, right, or a human being
that is, you know, whatever whatever, whatever, being a good
(29:35):
person is. And and the struggle for the l g
B t Q population of this world to be recognized
and and embraced and celebrated for who they are has
been has been the story of my adult life, right,
especially in the church, the church that I served. We
didn't get there overnight, right, This was a long struggle.
(29:58):
And the way it happens is through relationships. Right, It
happens through relationships. And when it's your friend or your daughter,
or your son, or your mother or your dad, you know,
I mean, it just changes the way you see an
abstract issue, right, It's not an issue, it's human being
(30:19):
and that then then you begin to have different questions
and different conversations about how how this can be and
and in the end you don't need to have all
the answers. The the The bottom line is do I
do I love this person? Do I will? I will
I embrace this person as a fellow human being? And
(30:41):
I say the same thing about the people with whom
I vehemently disagree on all of these issues, right, the
same the same approach.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
You know.
Speaker 5 (30:49):
It's just like, can I see them as human beings?
And so I when I am at my best and
I'm not always, it's in it's asking God to show
me how God loves the person in front of me,
and how I am to serve that person as if
(31:10):
that person were Christ himself. Right, and then also to
learn their story, to learn their stories, and one you
know a person's story and you learn about them in
a deep way. You don't have to agree with everything.
I have to understand everything. It might still be foreign
to you, their way of living, their loving I mean
(31:33):
fill in the blanks, right, But to say, okay, now
there are some things I would say, you know, I
draw some lines somewhere not all behavior, not all ways
of being are are in my view, morally acceptable. And
what I mean by that is like violence or abuse
or dehumanization. There are some lines we have to draw
that say, yeah, you can have your opinions, you can
(31:54):
have your perspectives, but you don't get to you don't
get to trample on other people's dignity. Right. That that's
that's kind of a that's a that's a line not
not about your being but about your behavior. Right. And
the way the church changed, My church changed is because
you know, we had, we we raised kids who came
(32:15):
out as queer and it's like, okay, they were baptized,
they were part of our church, they were you know,
they were they were you know, and and it was
this part of our humanity. And they they were the
ones who said to me, do you see that I
belong here? Not not will you let me belong here?
But it's like can you I belong here? And I
(32:37):
feel like that's the question, not will we let people belong?
Speaker 3 (32:41):
But that different framing.
Speaker 5 (32:43):
Yeah, it's such a different framing. It's not we're going
to let you in. It's like, no, you already belong
and it's up to us to change our lenses. And
that's how I feel about the immigrant I just came
back from Minnesota, right, And you heard the President said
about Somali people, right, and that whole that that Minnesota
has the largest Somali population in the United States? Right?
(33:06):
And was that an easy transition for people to immigrate
from Somalia to Minnesota. No, but they are now now
just an integral part that population is integral part of
our society. And so they belong. We don't. We don't
give them belonging.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
They're here, they're here, you know some I'll speak for myself, right,
I I because I I throughout my life. Right, It's
I still think it is rare. No, it's a fine
religious figures sort of protecting the LGBTQ community, accepting telling
folks like myself that that we belong. And I think
many would say, right that that is an act of courage, right,
(33:46):
that that is that that is that it is very brave, No,
for for people like yourself to do something like that.
And I do you think that that courage is contagious?
Speaker 6 (33:57):
Right?
Speaker 3 (33:57):
In other words, have some of your colleagues followed your
lead since you've been standing up for queer people and immigrants.
Have you noticed that ripple effect.
Speaker 5 (34:10):
Well, let me first of all say that I'd absolutely
believe the courage is contagious, and I draw courage from
other people, right like you need to know that. One
of the reasons that I had the courage to say
what I did in January was because I had read
a statement that a group of Roman Catholic bishops had
said in California about their stance regarding the immigrant micropopulation
(34:34):
of California, and I was really inspired by their courage,
and I thought, you know what, that's That's the kind
of religious leader I want. I want to be like them,
right to I want to be like them. I mean,
it was so slow going for so long, and then
there was such progress, like lightning speed progress, it seemed
(34:54):
like when marriage was finally legalized and there was just
all of this acceptance and to see that roaded now
in some parts of the country is it's heartbreaking. But
it's also like, yeah, we're not you know, we're just
not going back there, and so you want to you go,
but not not me, and that and I do think
(35:18):
that others, you know, we pass it along like some
days I might have the courage and then I falter
because of whatever. Right, but then you might have it
or we'll hear somebody else and we'll just kind of
because it's communal, it's like it's like electricity. It passes
the strength and numbers, its strengthen numbers. But it's also
just this mysterious thing, right, this mystery that we we
(35:41):
have this thing and it it keeps us. It's like hope,
it's just it's just we can't. It's like a survival thing.
We're just not We're just not wired to let it go.
But not all of us can do it all the time,
which so it's nice to nice to be able to
lean on each other.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Right, yeah, answer, But we know that you lived in
in Nonduras and obviously you.
Speaker 5 (36:10):
Pio and what else did you learn in Okay? Prendi
la p l spirit mano ladi la lah in Hustisia
profunda Theresa total broke my heart. I've never seen poverty
(36:37):
that they contributor or construi basada and loso the total pueblo.
I mean, I don't I don't know how to say it,
but I just saw the results of a of a
country is so polarized between rich and poor, and I
that you know, we're seeing more and more of that here.
(36:59):
I learned joy a liegria. I learned how to dance really,
you know, well, some really good did rave and they
(37:21):
need elispiri do they see? So they sail, they they
they are serbien, they are abore you as who is
familias told all of it. It was just it was
the hardest thing I've ever done. I mean, I was there.
I was very young when I was there. And we
(37:43):
still have god children that we support and and we
see I work with a lot. I worked with a
lot of news here in Washington, a lot of hunter
and immigrants in Washington.
Speaker 3 (37:54):
And I can tell that experience really really marked you
and most likely really marked yeah, the rest of your career.
Speaker 6 (38:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (38:03):
I actually thought I would I would stay there. I
would I would spend my ordained ministry there. But but
that was not to be. And and and so I'm here,
you know, And but I happened to live in a
part of the world where, you know, there's such a
strong concentration of Latino Spanic people from all over the
(38:25):
Spanish speaking world, and and now third and fourth generation
you know, people who have really made their lungs here,
as well as the wave of immigrants that have come
up late.
Speaker 4 (38:40):
We have two more questions for you, and that's it.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
I am maybe to to actually know this, this has
actually been I was about to say to end on
a positive note, but I but you have given us
hope and faith actually throughout this conversation, so I will
reframe my question.
Speaker 4 (38:57):
Okay, But but.
Speaker 3 (38:59):
I do think it is a time when a lot
of people obviously feel scared. There's so much mistrust and
government in the system. I am you know, you have
countless people that are thinking of leaving this country altogether.
But when you think of yourself, how do you how
(39:19):
do you find the courage to still trust God and
perhaps most importantly, to trust yourself? And in a moment
like the one we're living in right now.
Speaker 5 (39:31):
You know, there's a story in the Gospels where Jesus
is praying and it's it's kind of like the Garden
of gsemone, but it's different, and he basically says something
to the effect of, now my heart is troubled, and
what should I say? Spare me from this hour? And
instead of saying, let this cut past me, this is
from the Gospel of John. He says, no, it is
(39:54):
for this reason that I have come to this hour.
And I hear in that a wreck ignition that sometimes
we don't choose the times that we are living in,
but we do choose how we respond. I would give
anything not to be living in the time we're living
in right now. I would love for this to be
for us to be having a completely different conversation, but
(40:16):
we're not. And I'm in a position where I I
this is like my this is my time. I don't
have any I'm here, I'm not going anywhere. I'm not
going to I'm not going to let discouragement or cynicism
or bitterness get in my way. I'm going to just
keep on holding what we believe to be true and
(40:38):
right and good and work for a better day. Whether
or not we're successful, We're just going to keep going.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
So my final question, if you don't mind, it's going
to it's a personal question.
Speaker 5 (40:51):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
I know that you've written about miracles, and you're probably
closest to God then than many other people. So I
am agnostic.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
I have no faith.
Speaker 1 (41:08):
I wish I could have faith, but I have to
be honest to myself, and I have no faith.
Speaker 4 (41:13):
So what happens when we die.
Speaker 5 (41:16):
I don't know, but I know that, But I know,
I'm I believe that we can trust that on the
other side we will be met by love. I also
believe that there is more waiting for us. But what
that is and what it will be like, I cannot say.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
But you're convinced that there's an afterlife, that there's something
after this that we're not going.
Speaker 4 (41:47):
To be just started.
Speaker 5 (41:48):
I have my I mean, I can't prove it. I can't.
It's something I'm willing to stake. I'm willing to believe
it in the sense that I'm willing I'm giving. I've
I've seen enough I should say to believe that this
is not the end, and that there is consciousness. What
(42:09):
form it takes, what awaits us, I don't know. But
I also know that it's not healthy to dwell too
much on what's on the other side while we have
life to live now. Now, when it's our time, and
I've sat with many people who have crossed over from
(42:30):
this life to whatever awaits us on the other side,
then then we surrender to it. And it's a very
poignant and courageous thing to do. We'll all do it,
then we embrace it. But until then, I think our
task is to choose life as Scripture says, to choose
life and to and to work for whatever we imagine
(42:54):
God's desire would be. You know, Jesus said on you know,
pray for the kingdom to be here, you know, on earth,
as it doesn't happen, to do that work now, that's
our best way for preparing for whatever lies on the
other side. And even if there's nothing, you know, even
if I'm wrong, I I will live this way until
(43:15):
the day I die, and trust that that will not
have been in vain.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
Be sure, this has been a wonderful conversation. So thank
you so much. Thank you.
Speaker 6 (43:25):
The Moon is a production Bante Studios in partnership with
Iheart's Michael Tura podcast network. Our staff includes Dayel larcon
La and Santeo Colon, with help from Paolan Devo Corso,
La Tella Ramirez and Elsa Oya. The CEO of Raande
(43:46):
Studios is Na Guerrero. Executive producers at Our Heart r
Urwin Santana and Leo Gollz, Paolo Carrera, Dylan Unger and
Mark Cannon also serve as producers, so design final mix
and theme song by and Theasbon Silence. Our hosts are
Jorjya Ramos and Paula Ramos. If you like this episode,
(44:10):
please share the work recommend the moment to anyone who
might enjoy unpacking these complicated times with us. We're heading
into a short holiday break, but we'll be back with
more episodes on January seventh. In the meantime, check out
Radiant Studios. Our shows Rabie, Ilo and Centran are really
(44:31):
worth a lesson and Lisa Serba thanks for listening.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Bobby Bones Show
Listen to 'The Bobby Bones Show' by downloading the daily full replay.