Bad to the Bone: Richard Hatch, Courtney Robertson, Kelly Dodd

You think you are going on reality tv to find love, make new friends or win money. Then suddenly, things dramatically change. 

Whether you like it or not, you’ve become the VILLAIN!

Chris is beginning a deep exploration into how reality stars become the villain. Is it their fault or beyond their control? Are they misunderstood or bad to the bone? 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Chris Harrison coming to you from the home office here
in Austin, Texas, and I am so excited about today's
episode because it's a subject that was, well, it was

(00:21):
entrenched in my life for what nineteen or twenty years.
I'm talking about reality show villains. I have some of
the most legendary reality show villains joining me on the
show today. The reason I wanted to dive into this
is because I was always so fascinated with villains, the
quote unquote villains that came on The Bachelor in Baccheorette
that ended up becoming villains. Why and who were they

(00:45):
really villains? Did they just rub people the wrong way?
Were they just kind of misconceived by the fans? How
did they see themselves? Was it the producers, was it editing?
Or really? Was it just their personality that drove this.
It's something in a subject matter that I have thought
about intimately for so long, and so I thought, let's

(01:07):
do an entire show just with the greatest villains of
all time. And we're going to talk to Richard Hatch
from Survivor, one of the biggest Villains from Bacher Bacherette World,
Courtney Robertson from Ben Flanneck Season How She Stirred Up

(01:28):
the Waters, and Kelly Dodd from the Real Housewives of
Orange County. That's who's joining me on the show today. So,
as I said, we have, I mean the greatest hits
of villains, but I want to start with a guy
who I was a huge fan of because I was
a huge Survivor fan, Richard Hatch back in two thousand
he became Survivor's first winner in the debut season. It

(01:53):
was the way he played the game that really caught
my attention because at the end of the day he won,
He outplayed everybody and survived and became that first Survivor champion.
So that is where we will start this villain episode.

(02:22):
Joining me now really the og villain in all of
reality TV. I mean, maybe you can go back to
the MTV days, but Richard Hatch, you are synonymous with
being a villain on reality TV. And I by the way,
I do not mean that in a bad way at all,
because the other thing I will say is I'm a fan.

(02:45):
I was a fan of Survivor when it came out
in two thousand and when you were doing it and
you won, followed you and all the other reality shows.
So huge fan of how you handled yourself.

Speaker 2 (02:54):
I appreciate it. Thanks very much, Chris. I liked everything
except the O in the og.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Hey. Well, yeah, I know. I'm right there with you, Pal,
I'm right there with you.

Speaker 3 (03:03):
Is it?

Speaker 1 (03:03):
I mean, is it stunning to think back? That was
two thousand, man, that was twenty three years ago?

Speaker 2 (03:08):
Twenty three years ago?

Speaker 4 (03:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (03:10):
You know. I remember I was had not started the
Battery yet, but I had gotten the job, and I
was doing a charity thing and you may have been
there because Jeff Probst was there. We did a celebrity
dodgeball event. Oh they had a Survivor team and I
remember going up to Probes and asking, so, I'm doing
this reality show? What is this? What is this genre?

(03:33):
And He's like, all I can say is, you're gonna
have to figure it out. Like you know, Survivor is
a different animal. You're gonna have to kind of figure
out your own kind of path. And it was actually
great advice.

Speaker 2 (03:43):
Well, it took him a lot longer to figure it
out than he admits. Now let me tell you.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
Well, we all like to look back and revisions. History
is wonderful, isn't it. But you became known that first
season as this, you know, kind of brilliant game player
and schemer. But also I think it's fair to say
you were also known as a villain. Did you feel that?
And when did you feel it?

Speaker 2 (04:07):
I could answer really light and silly, but I'll just
briefly answer a little bit more seriously. So I played,
and I thought I played really, really well. I was
so proud of myself and imagined viewers watching and thought, oh,
you know, I'm going to go back to.

Speaker 1 (04:26):
Ye hero's welcome.

Speaker 2 (04:28):
Yeah, wow, how did he do that? How do you
figure it? Et cetera. And although I did, and there
are throngs of fans who still communicate with me now, thankfully,
it really altered my life in a way that I
hadn't been prepared for. So that whole villain thing isn't
as simple and superficial as one might think. A big

(04:51):
part of the villain label for me had to do
with being naked, gay, and atheists. You know, those things
combined really made for a very serious villainous thing that
allowed prosecutors and others to really pounce in a way
that they felt able to do. Yeah, terrible, But I

(05:14):
love the game and the flip side of that. If
I set aside real life and the actual homophobia that
was behind, it has been fascinating and fun and amazing.
And people now get it. Even during COVID, you know,
new fans are like, wow, they told me you were
a villain. Oh my god, how did you do that?
It's pretty exciting.

Speaker 1 (05:33):
Your situation is so different because it was a true game.
You played it masterfully and you won, and people didn't
understand that. And I don't know if that exacerbated it,
like damn this guy even more, or because it may
have been the rules Outlast outplay.

Speaker 2 (05:53):
People did not understand the rules. Even the players didn't
understand the rules, most of them. But when we got out.
Rosie O'Donnell, for example, had all of us on her show.
She gave she loved the show. She was a crazy fan,
hated me because of the villain thing she perceived, didn't
understand the rules. She gave everyone a car on air

(06:13):
and gave me a box of rice. No loved it.
She was looking to be, you know, to shame me,
and but but you know, that's that's the type of
reaction I got from many, many, many folks.

Speaker 1 (06:27):
How crazy, How hard was that for you? You know,
you came back into the real world and you were
expecting one thing, you got another, and you had to
deal with that. That was part of your life and
you were it was a huge part of your life
because I mean, I remember the press you got and
this is before social media.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Yeah yeah, but it extended into social media. But but
but sure, yeah, so it was challenging, is what I'll say. Listen,
I'm not going to do the woe as me thing.
It's been really, really rough, but I wouldn't change anything.
I learned a lot, and it was interesting to me
to recognize what folks who really face prejudices, et cetera,

(07:08):
go through. You know, even growing up gay, I had
to kind of figure out who I was early on,
But I still didn't face the kind of difficulties that
I know so many people do. And now now I've
faced them and understand how how challenging it is.

Speaker 1 (07:26):
You went you went on to use this very well.
Just you did another didn't you do another season Survivor again?

Speaker 2 (07:34):
Oh? Sure?

Speaker 1 (07:35):
And then there was The Apprentice. I think you did
the Biggest Loser, so I mean you were able to
kind of start milking this as producers and people were like, hey,
this guy is great TV.

Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah I did. I did quite a few shows thereafter,
but it was it wasn't my goal. You know, so
many people on the show are on there to get famous,
to get known. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the fun.
I enjoyed doing and interacting. But I'm a kind of
a serious fella. I'm trying to do a podcast now

(08:10):
called Reality Matters, meaning reality What's True Matters, And I'm
I'm really discouraged by the way in which we seem
to be shifting away from that.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
Well what was what was true for you? You know,
because again, Survivor's very different because it is a game,
and therefore, just for people that are listening, that means
there's standards and practices. That means if there's money on
the line, there are lawyers, and there's certain things producers
can and can't do and say because there's money on
the line. But do you feel like you were portrayed

(08:41):
as Richard Hatch? Do you know, do you feel like
the editing was fair to you?

Speaker 2 (08:47):
Wow? Chris, I don't know if you're you know, you
have behind the scenes knowledge or you're just shooting in
the wind. This isn't something most many folks know about.
But you know, you say there are standards and practices.
This was the first reality show this on a major network. Yes, MTV,
like you said before that with Real World, but this
was the first. So they did not even have a

(09:09):
representative of standards and practices on set. Now and I
caught them cheating. They were feeding Kelly, another participant. She
was she won five challenges in a row. At the end,
I shut down production. I mean, this really real life
became a very very difficult situation. You know, while we
were filming, we were hell yeah, crazy, no standards and

(09:33):
practices know anything. It was the wild West.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
That is well, because I mean I've hosted you know,
who Wants to Be a Millionaire? I hosted the game
show for quite some time. And even when we did
Bachelor there before we did Paradise, we did this other
show where there was money on the line. There was
kind of this prisoner's dilemma again, standards and practices. It
was like, this is a game show and there's certain
things you have to stay between you know, these navigational

(10:01):
beacons to keep it fair. I have never heard that
story that you caught them cheating and shut down production.
That is shocking.

Speaker 2 (10:08):
I really wish it were. They were there. But even
one of the executive producers held himself out after this,
as I'm the representative of standards and practices.

Speaker 1 (10:17):
He said, I'm like, oh God, then how come you're
giving Kelly a hamburger?

Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yeah? Yeah, you know, they could claim they He himself
may not have known. I don't know, but there were
a number well whatever, but watched it. I saw it.
I stopped it.

Speaker 1 (10:32):
Good for you, by the way, because most people would
not have the wherewithal and the confidence to do that.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Thirty nine days, I lost forty two pounds watching him
give her the food, the chocolate bar, then finding her
peanut butter and everything. I was losing my mind.

Speaker 5 (10:50):
Man.

Speaker 1 (10:50):
By the way, the Survivor diet's still the all time greatest.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was crazy.

Speaker 1 (10:57):
So it worked, and obviously none of that comes out,
you know, as you're going back to the reunions and
all that. It was hush hush, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (11:04):
It was hush hush, you know. In the in the
ten year reunion because so many things happened to me
as a result of being such a public figure before
fifty four million viewers. You know, Mark Burnett came up
and he said, listen, I'm so sorry this happened and
that happened, and let me know if there's anything I
can do to help, and it's it's it's fascinating to
me because people like him in those kinds of positions

(11:27):
of power now, with wealth beyond what most people could
imagine and power that goes with that, you know, hasn't
been there to support the participants afterwards. And that's something
reality participants ought to know. You know. I've got to
give Mark credit because he talked to me in the
early stages when he was selecting me about putting a

(11:49):
gay person on there and that he wanted a certain representation.
But the follow through just wasn't there. He could have
should have known the consequence and what real world I
might have faced.

Speaker 1 (12:04):
The ramifications of all this. Yeah. With that said, what
would your advice be to those that are still you know,
getting in the game, and whether it's survivor whether it's
you know, a million other shows that exist now.

Speaker 2 (12:17):
Well, one thing is I've always said to folks, you know,
don't go on these shows to figure out who you are.
Do that ahead of time.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
Yeah, exactly right.

Speaker 4 (12:25):
You don't have.

Speaker 2 (12:26):
Time while you're in there to figure out who you are,
and you're not going to be liked by a certain
segment of society, so get good with that. I was
pretty comfortable with that in my mind until I realized
that those people in power might be the ones who
don't like you, and they can impact your life. They
can devastate it. So you do have to think about

(12:49):
the consequence. Oh you should if.

Speaker 1 (12:51):
Don't go in there thinking that you are going to
be the Captain America that everybody just falls in love
with and the heront nine percent of the time that's
not going to be you.

Speaker 2 (13:01):
Correct. You'll have a good amount of people who will
back you, You'll have followers who understand you, but you
could have far more people who don't. And particularly in
social media and particularly with younger folks, it can really
affect your psyche. It can get to you if you
haven't figured out who you are yet. So it's challenging.

Speaker 1 (13:21):
Would you do it all again?

Speaker 2 (13:23):
I would go again because I love the game, and
even when I went the first time at thirty eight,
I knew who I was. I know who I am.
You know, I'm comfortable with that. I've figured that out,
so I would do it well, Richard.

Speaker 1 (13:35):
I tell you what, I have always been a fan
from day one a Survivor because I love the show.
Was I love it when it was Eco Challenge, when
Burnett was doing that, and then when it became Survivor,
I was so into it. And when you turn the
game on its head the way you did, I was
in the camp of Holy Cow. This guy is good,
Like damn, he's good.

Speaker 2 (13:56):
It's really kind of you.

Speaker 1 (13:57):
So I've always appreciated all the iterations, all the shows
you've done, and so I'm glad we had a chance
to talk today.

Speaker 2 (14:02):
Why didn't I get pulled onto Bachelor Paradise to tempt
the guys?

Speaker 1 (14:07):
That would have been a good twist. He's got the
villain thing going, man, Chris Richard Hatch, appreciate it, buddy,
have a good one. My thanks to Richard Hatch after
talking to him, an even bigger fan to think about. Also,
it's very interesting to shed light on, you know, being
a gay man and atheist and all those things that

(14:29):
he carried into that season. Thank goodness, he was confident,
knew who he was and was able to withstand the
pressure that he got from outside the show. But was
it just me or did anybody fall out of their
chair like I did when he said he shut down
production on Survivor because he caught the producers cheating. He
caught the producers of Survivor feeding Kelly on season one

(14:55):
and he shut it down until they fixed it. That
is jaw dropping. I have never heard that story, and
that just blew me away. So I think, to my
thanks to Richard Hatch for coming on the show, but
for that bombshell of a story about Survivor that I

(15:17):
didn't know about. I hope you didn't either. Up next
is a very dear friend of mine. So Cordy Robertson
was a contestant on the sixteenth season of The Bachelor.
That was been flantic season if you remember. The winemaker
from San Francisco. Courtney quickly became one of the biggest
villains in the history of our franchise. She was unapologetically

(15:38):
after Ben Flannick, who she really did love and fell
in love with, but again, she really rubbed people the
wrong way. And became one of the biggest villains in
our franchise history. Joining me now, very dear friend, Courtney Robertson.

(16:04):
I was going to say old friend, but I didn't
want to say you're old at all because I am
much older. So just I'm going to say, very good friend,
Courtney Robertson. How you doing.

Speaker 6 (16:13):
Hey, I'm doing super duper. Actually, it's good to see you.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
I was going to call you my old friend.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
Definitely, you can definitely call me your old friend because
I have you by many, many years. Where are you
now because you're not in Los Angeles?

Speaker 6 (16:26):
Yeah, so I was in LA for about fourteen years
and I moved back to Arizona, my hometown, about.

Speaker 3 (16:31):
Six years ago.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
Because you're married to kids now, yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:35):
Lots happened.

Speaker 6 (16:36):
Oh yeah, I've got two kids. Today was actually the
This week is the first week. They both went to preschool.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
So I'm like free, that a wonderful thing. So they wait,
they're both headed your pre school. So were talking four
or five years old.

Speaker 6 (16:50):
We got three and eighteen months, and I have a boy.
My boys three turning three, and my daughter's eighteen months
Poloma and she is a mini me and she he is.

Speaker 1 (17:01):
Real sassy, She's got an attitude.

Speaker 3 (17:04):
She's got an attitude. Yeah, oh yeah, she.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
Will grow up to be an amazing villain on reality TV.

Speaker 6 (17:10):
Yeah, I know, maybe someday. I talked to Ashley. I'm like, man,
we gotta get our babies together. Her little baby is
so cute.

Speaker 1 (17:17):
Ashley Dawson. Yeah, Ashley and Conetti, Ashley and Jared. We
just saw them here in Austin. Ashley came in town
with Ben Higgins and had dinner and she showed me
videos of her and Dawson. I mean, the cutest, cutest kid.
Poloma would do well to hook up with Dawson.

Speaker 3 (17:34):
Yeah, I'm like, let's have a playdate.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, maybe some day arranged. Weird Bachelor kids getting together,
that's a whole other show. But we have enough kids now,
isn't that weird? Before we get into everything we want
to talk about, it is amazing to me and wonderful
when I see you, Ashley, Jade and Tanner, Tristan, right,
you name it. We have so many babies, and they're

(17:56):
not all Bachelor babies that were made from the show
and relationships from the show, but just the same watching
everybody grow up and have babies and kind of complete
the full circle of their lives is really wonderful.

Speaker 3 (18:08):
It's got to be a trip for you. I mean
we met gosh over ten years ago, Yeah it was.
It feels good to me to be like.

Speaker 6 (18:14):
So far moved, like because it took me a lot
of time to get my life kind of just to
feeling normal.

Speaker 3 (18:19):
Like what feels normal to me?

Speaker 6 (18:21):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (18:22):
But yeah, it is wild.

Speaker 6 (18:23):
And you were there for like the journey, like and
you've watched it all unfold. And I met your kids
when they were little, and then I see them going
off to college and I'm like.

Speaker 3 (18:31):
What, it's wild, And you're right, are you an empty
nester now?

Speaker 5 (18:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Yes, I mean while they boomerang, they do come home
for summer break, which is really weird because now instead
of just kids, I have these adults living with me.
They really don't want to be here, Lauren and I
really don't want to know. We do love it when
they're here. It's that good kind of noise. And I
realize they this is my son's last summer at home.
He's about to graduate, he's going into senior year. And

(18:56):
you know, with my daughter, I get like two or
three more summers and that's it. So I'm grasping onto
it as hard as I can and favor You're right.
I mean, you ten years ago and you were able
to remove yourself. I kind of had this dazed and
confused version of the show where people would step off
the merry go round, but I stayed and I would
get to know the next group, and so I never

(19:18):
really left. And so I'm kind of where you were
about two years removed now and it feels good and
I feel like, finally I have a little distance between
me and the show and I can kind of let
my guard down a little bit.

Speaker 6 (19:31):
It takes time, it's you know, and then it sometimes
it flares back up.

Speaker 3 (19:36):
You know, started a podcast.

Speaker 6 (19:38):
And you dive back in, and I did to use
the word triggered, but you know, you kind of can
tap back into that time, and I'm sure you have
fond memories.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
I mean, how long did you host the show.

Speaker 1 (19:47):
I was nineteen years, a little over nineteen years. We
were about to celebrate the twentieth anniversary when I left,
and yeah, I mean it's the wonderful times there was amazing.
I mean, even look back at your season with Ben
Flam we traveled the world.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
We were, you know, we were in Zermatt.

Speaker 1 (20:04):
Zermatt, Switzerland, underneath the Matterhorn. I skied up Switzerland and
down into Italy and had lunch. And we were in Belize,
where I brought my kids. We were fishing and diving
with sharks. So it was an unbelievable season. We're was
that season? Did we go to viek Uh No? Yeah?
Was it Viekis?

Speaker 2 (20:24):
Yes?

Speaker 3 (20:25):
In Puerto Rico? Oh, you know what happened in Porto right.

Speaker 1 (20:28):
Now, that's where the infamous skinny dip took place?

Speaker 3 (20:31):
Op see poop see.

Speaker 1 (20:34):
What do you remember about the infamous skinny dipping incident
with Ben Flannik?

Speaker 6 (20:39):
So I remember being at the end of the was
it the Puerto Rico baseball date, and it was like
the cocktail party, like the losing team went home boohoo.
And then we got to like the night portion of
the cocktail party, and we were sitting in like a
little guzzy bow talking and the girls were over here,
and I was like, gosh, I would love to go
skanping right now, and He's like, I'll do it, let's go,
And I was like, no, Like these girls are going

(21:02):
to kill me and anyway, I was like, well, maybe
another time, and he's like, well, I think my date's
going to end early tomorrow, wink wink. If you want
to you know, if you want to do it then
So I was like, I think people didn't see that obviously,
So I thought this was like a plan. And then
so like I'm getting ready, I'm in my robe and
like they're like okay, like it's time to go. And

(21:25):
then I showed up to his door like I'm ready,
I have like a wine glass, I'm in my robe,
and he looks at me kind of like shocked, like
I don't know, like if he was expecting it, if you.

Speaker 3 (21:35):
Thought it was a joke.

Speaker 6 (21:35):
So then we did it and in the time, and
I know people say this it's so cliche, like you
kind of do forget you're filming a television show, and
I just I knew I would get extra time with
him and that there wouldn't be audio. Water and mics don't.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Mix right exactly.

Speaker 3 (21:52):
I did have a little bit of an ulterior motive.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
And what the producers are you or ben me?

Speaker 4 (22:01):
I did?

Speaker 6 (22:02):
I wanted to like talk to him off camera, and
that was the close but it was on.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Camera and that was really the closer though. I mean,
you know, say what you will about that moment. That's
what sealed the deal. No pun intended it.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
Kind of did. It was kind of did.

Speaker 6 (22:18):
But he told me out there like you know, you're
the one, and now I kind of have to go
through the motions and and you I remember this was
like pretty early on. It really was I and I
was like considering I was always threatening to me, and
like I just needed some reassurance.

Speaker 3 (22:33):
So I was like, Okay, I guess we're going to
do this.

Speaker 1 (22:37):
I found you very interesting and I am having a
few other quote unquote villains, and I use air quotes
from reality shows. You are the only bachelor bachelorette person
because I specifically remember your situation so well and thought
about it so much. Of why you again, and to

(23:00):
use the word that is overused today, triggered the other
women so much right in your mind before the skinny
dipping incident, because you were not loved in the house
before then, What was it like? Why now that you've
had plenty of time to think back, what was it
that set them off?

Speaker 3 (23:17):
I think it was a trifecta.

Speaker 6 (23:18):
Really, I think the show airing and then seeing what
I was saying in my interviews, I got too comfortable
with producers, and towards the end of the show, I realized,
like I don't have to answer that or I don't
have to say that again. So but it was too late,
like the writing was already on the wall for me,
but for me like, I mean, there's two things that.

Speaker 3 (23:38):
I want to say.

Speaker 6 (23:38):
There's so much flooding into me, like I say, I
have to kind of like tap back into it. But
like night one, I remember talking to kcy B, the
sweetest girl right, and I was like.

Speaker 3 (23:47):
This is obviously an au natural situation. I'm like, oh,
so what do you do for work?

Speaker 6 (23:50):
And I was like trying to connect with her and
she's like, I'm not going to tell you that, like
and it just like I had my interactions that didn't
go well, but they didn't show that right, and so
I just got very like overwhelmed. I was constantly in
interviews they were like, oh, she's gold, let's.

Speaker 3 (24:06):
Bring her in.

Speaker 6 (24:06):
So I was kind of not around as much and
I think the girls took it kind of personally. And
then I had Casey, Shemer my best friend who went
on to Data Law and on my podcast recently, and
it was kind of nice refreshing to hear her perspective
because she was like best friends with everyone in the house,
and she's like, you know, she was telling me, like,
they're all talking badly about you. Producers were telling me Courtney,

(24:27):
people are saying bad things about you, like you kind
of need to start doing it or you're gonna look bad.
So there was just so much and I was also
falling for him.

Speaker 3 (24:36):
Truly.

Speaker 6 (24:37):
My only reason I did the show is because I
saw him on Ashley season and I was like wine Maker.

Speaker 3 (24:42):
You know, I dated.

Speaker 6 (24:42):
Celebrities, and I really thought, like, this guy seems like
a catchy, so normal.

Speaker 3 (24:48):
So I don't know if I answered your question.

Speaker 1 (24:51):
Tell me if this is a wild theory. This is
one theory that I've had, and I want to ask
your opinion because you were a very successful model coming
into the show. Extremely gorgeous you are, and I remember
night one you are very striking, so you make an entrance.
Do you think that along with the attitude. I think

(25:17):
models have having gotten to know some and I even
dated this kind of killer be killed attitude when you're
a model, when you walk in and there's twenty fifty
however many other beautiful women, and everybody's shooting daggers, and
it's like, before you come at me, I'm going to
come at you. Do you feel like you maybe brought
that attitude to the show, like this is a competition,

(25:39):
just like I'm on the runway and I'm going to win.

Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yes, one hundred percent. That was one percent. Yeah I did.
My dad always says that.

Speaker 6 (25:47):
He said, Courtney, you know, you had a leg up
on everybody. I had walked into casting rooms where girls
are sizing up. You walk into a callback for commercial
and let me tell you, fifty girls are sitting there
and they look like you, So you kind of this.
I had confidence, and I know Ben has said that
about me and that that really attracted him to me.

Speaker 3 (26:06):
And then slowly throughout the season.

Speaker 6 (26:08):
It kind of started like we're the volume went down
on my confidence. But I think there is the ego
part of it as well, you know, like, yeah, I
want to win the first time. That's why I'm here,
Like I'm here to win, and you know, because I
really liked him so for the right reasons. But then
the girls just, you know, something I wanted to touch

(26:28):
on I won't say the name, but what didn't air?
And I wanted to talk to you about the Women
Tell All because I was one of the only ones
to go into.

Speaker 3 (26:35):
That hot seat with you.

Speaker 6 (26:38):
But you know, one of the girls kept calling me
AUTI stick on camera and they would never air that.
They didn't air it, and I thought that that was
how the narrative was going to play out, like so
you'd see this this beef and this confrontation and it
didn't air out that way like it aired like people
assumed she was just calling me like the B word.

Speaker 3 (26:56):
So that was like, really, like what made me dislike
this girl?

Speaker 6 (27:01):
And I just had to touch on that because I
couldn't talk about that at the Women Tell All.

Speaker 1 (27:06):
So how much do you feel was you that we
got to see Courtney for the most part? And how
much do you feel the producers had a heavy hand
and how you were portrayed and who you became to
be on the show?

Speaker 3 (27:20):
Oh gosh, I mean maybe fifty fifty.

Speaker 6 (27:24):
You know, I think you know, I've talking to producers after,
like Mike Fleiss and I hung out through Amy Bean
and Malibu, and you know, he said, you're famous and
he was like you know, it was him or one
of the top female execs was like, we've never really
had like a true model on the show, and like
we kind of had to do it to you.

Speaker 3 (27:41):
So I think that they always knew, well, like did you?
And that's exactly what I said.

Speaker 6 (27:46):
I was like, I remember Mike seeing my engagement ring,
like how do you like that ring?

Speaker 3 (27:50):
I bought you?

Speaker 6 (27:51):
And so yeah, I mean it's just a small world,
but yeah, I definitely think that they had a plan
for me. Yeah, and I kind of shot myself in
the foot by being so trusting in the interviews.

Speaker 3 (28:04):
I mean it was also positive.

Speaker 6 (28:06):
Like some people, it was like they love to hate me,
but it was so bigger than I thought it could
ever be, Like dealing with that kind of hate and
having really no support.

Speaker 3 (28:17):
You know, I had dated celebrities, I'd.

Speaker 6 (28:19):
Seen them deal with paparazzi, but then like to be
the one who has like paparazzi stalking me and being
I was on the cover of US Weekly for like
five weeks in a row, like.

Speaker 3 (28:29):
Man Eater, like shameless seduction.

Speaker 6 (28:32):
Yeah, and then I hate to say it, but like
Whitney Houston died and I was I had a break
for about a week. Yeah, but it was just like
the beating that never stopped. And on top of it,
I was dealing with the relationship that wasn't so good.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
I can completely sympathize with that now. I understand that
sorry sales.

Speaker 3 (28:49):
Yeah, oh I'm sure.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, I get it, but it's and.

Speaker 6 (28:52):
I was curious to ask you that because when you
went through this, I don't think you saw I know
you were going through it. I didn't reach out to
you personally, but I did a story and I probably
went away in twenty four hours, but just saying like
I miss him, like I was sad because I'm a
fan of the show now I still watch because of everything,
and I just had to say that I was really
sad to see you go.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
I appreciated that. Thank you, And I know you know that.
I don't want to be a broken record.

Speaker 1 (29:16):
No, I apre no. I love hearing that, and I
appreciate that so much, you know, because.

Speaker 3 (29:20):
You've been so delightful.

Speaker 6 (29:22):
When we did Katie Kirk in New York, we did
Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? I've seen you at
events and like you know, you've always just been such
a solid dude, and people always ask me, how is he?

Speaker 3 (29:33):
I'm like, he's incredible.

Speaker 1 (29:35):
I appreciate that. Yeah, we've always had a great relationship.
You and I have done We have done a ton
of things. I remember when I essentially took over the
Katie Kirk Show. We hosted it that day and had
everybody on.

Speaker 3 (29:44):
I was so nervous it was but like, your.

Speaker 1 (29:47):
Season was so interesting because you know, I doubt that
anybody had the idea before you walked in, but I
think they saw the impression you made and thought, Okay,
now this is a narrative, this is a string we
can kind of weave throughout this entire season. And then
on top of that, Ben was crazy about you, and

(30:08):
that's really what sent this over the top. If you
weren't the one, then it wouldn't have been that big
of a deal and it would have petered out, and
what's what's the big deal? But the fact that you
won one essentially and you got engaged. I think that
infuriated people. Do you think that exacerbated the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (30:29):
I think that he had Lindsay, who's sweetest pie?

Speaker 6 (30:32):
And we are just like night and day different, And
I think it's like anybody like you're rooting for, like
when you're watching it's a television show, and I remember,
like I hate to say bring up the past, but
I remember, like your wife said something like about me,
like I really wish he would have picked you.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
Hear those things and you're like, oh, like you know,
but he picked me. So but then I had to
deal with the relationship as well, and.

Speaker 1 (30:56):
That was like yeah, and the relationship obviously didn't go
great and broke up, right, but I mean he's.

Speaker 3 (31:01):
And we're fine now.

Speaker 6 (31:02):
But like this whole process was like very much so
like pick me, pick me, and then afterwards it was
still like pick me, pick me, where I was like
I kind of got to the point where by the
after the final rows, I was like I'm done.

Speaker 3 (31:14):
I have no fight left, you.

Speaker 1 (31:16):
Know, And do you ever go back? Have you watched
that season back?

Speaker 6 (31:21):
So I watched some of it when I wrote my book,
and I was shocked, I mean because I knew what
I was wearing when I said this, and then I
was shocked at like how many voiceovers were the things
that caught created the most problem. Yeah, and then I
was like, oh, I realized why the girls like oh
they showed that or like I realized why the girls,
I think that just made it worse, kind of going

(31:43):
back to what we were talking about, Like they saw
what I was saying my interviews, but when I was
in the house I really didn't. I wasn't mean to
their faces.

Speaker 3 (31:50):
I was just having fun.

Speaker 1 (31:52):
Right it is? And you kind of remind me a
little bit of Michelle Money, who I'm very dear friends
with as well, and she was kind of the narrator
of her season, and she was so funny and so
quick witted. In the moment, it didn't it didn't come
off well, and she was a bit of a villain.
I remember standing up for her at the tell all
because I was like, guys, this is not who this
girl is. Trust me, like y'all, you will learn to

(32:14):
love her, and everyone did eventually your tell all, I
felt really guilty and horrible when you were in the
hot seat. I don't know if you know this. I
was so sick, deathly ill. I was so sick.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
That was my question for you. I wondered if you
were really sick.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
I thought I was going to faint. So here's what
was going on. I was obviously you were the penultimate moment. Right,
you were the interview that I was looking forward to
that everybody was. You were the show, right, I mean,
say what you will, You were the show. It was
no longer about Ben, it was no longer it was
all about you. You were the only thing driving this.

(32:52):
If you had walked away, the show would have been
off the air. That was it. You were driving the ratings.
And so this was the interview. And I had the
flu I had neat. I was so sick, and all
of a sudden, I got dizzy and I started sweating,
and so I don't even know if you heard this
in my microphone. I started whispering because I thought I
got really dizzy, and you know how like the world

(33:14):
starts closing in on you, so that starts happening. And
there was back in the day we had fake candles
after a while, but back you were real candles. So
we had these this huge candle set up next to
me on the left, and I thought, I was I
wasn't even listening to what you were saying anymore. And
I was like, well, if I pass out, I'm going
to try and roll to the right, and so my

(33:34):
face in it. Oh, I thought I was going to
pass out, and then I think we stopped down for
like an hour that day.

Speaker 3 (33:41):
That was my question.

Speaker 6 (33:41):
I'm glad to hear that you really were sick, because
I kind of felt like duped after the fact, and
like I could see you did look a little gray
or green as.

Speaker 3 (33:51):
They call it. But I was sitting there. They bring
me out.

Speaker 6 (33:54):
I walk out and like was we were starting to
go when this happened, and the audience is booing me,
the girls are chirping at me. They are gassed up
on like tequila, and I sit down, so I'm like
ready to go, and then they're like, Chris needs to
lay down, and I was like, oh, okay, like thinking
you'll just be right back or make up.

Speaker 3 (34:14):
I don't know which means.

Speaker 1 (34:15):
That's the weirdest thing in the world. Chris needs to
lay down. That's never happened before. I've he's just never
heard that. I've been sick twice in the history of
the show. I was sick twice once.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
Hey, that's a good batting average.

Speaker 1 (34:25):
It was I was at the lady's house, I was
at the mansion, and I had to do a quick
just date card thing, so it didn't matter and then
there was you. I don't even remember, and I hate
to admit this, I don't even remember what I was
asking because I wasn't even listening. If a producer wasn't
in my ear at that moment when you stop talking,
somebody would say something and I would ask that question.

(34:48):
I wasn't even in the building. I had no and
I felt horrible. I felt so guilty because I really
liked you, as you know, thank you, and I thought
you were I understood why there was this kind of
villain moniker, but I also understood that there was this
other side to you and that you were this really
sweet woman, and maybe misunderstood a little bit, and so

(35:08):
I was like, well, I'm going to try and bring
this out, kind of like I did with Michelle Money,
and I just wasn't there for you. I felt like
I abandoned you.

Speaker 6 (35:16):
Well, it's so funny that you say that, because I
kind of felt like, God, maybe he just doesn't like me,
like because you know, and that's really nice of you
to say that. Actually, like feels good to hear, because
I felt like we had always had such good interactions
and not that you abandoned me, but like like you said,
like I was so terrified, but like I had watched
Michelle Moneies because I was like, how is this going

(35:37):
to go?

Speaker 3 (35:38):
And it wasn't that. It was just very like matter
of fact, like how's your family doing?

Speaker 1 (35:43):
And I was like like like I wasn't even listening,
like you're not even responding to what I'm saying.

Speaker 3 (35:47):
But on top of it, the girls.

Speaker 6 (35:49):
Were yelling like there's no way that you could have stopped.
Like it's almost like this woman tall all with Jesse Palmer,
like it's just like it was like and like you
you weren't there.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
I really pride myself on listening and then you know,
I'll have something in mind. But then usually the question,
you know, we go off on a tangent somewhere else
because that's where the interview takes you. And you could
have said the sky is blue, and my next question
could have been what color do you think the sky is?
It was just I was so out of it.

Speaker 6 (36:16):
That makes so much sense to me, honestly, and like
there were things that I wanted to like get across,
and also this was before it was live.

Speaker 1 (36:23):
Yes, thank god.

Speaker 3 (36:24):
Can you imagine if you rolled off? No?

Speaker 1 (36:26):
Yeah, I don't know what it would happened because I
had to go laid down Paulie. You remember Big Poulie,
our stage man.

Speaker 2 (36:30):
I love.

Speaker 3 (36:31):
I just saw him and they just had me back
for group days. Oh really still there and he hooked
me up on the stage.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
Yah's one of my favorite human beings. And he literally
carried me to my room and laid me down on
the couch and was just like, are you okay? I
was like, I think I'm going to die. I'm like,
I just need a minute and I'm sorry in a
flop sweat for like thirty minutes, and then came back
and then hosted the rest of the show and then
went back and just passed out. It was war.

Speaker 3 (36:53):
You're a professional. You're a professional.

Speaker 1 (36:55):
Back to you know, being quote unquote a villain. Do
you have advice for people now that you host your
own podcast and you talk to so many people and
I'm sure hopefully people have reached out to you. What
is your advice to people that are either coined as
the villain or going on a reality show?

Speaker 6 (37:13):
Oh gosh, so much advice. I mean, you really have
to have thick skin, mind you. Instagram wasn't a thing
when I went on. Twitter was kind of a thing.
But the online hate and the trolls are really like,
it doesn't matter who you are Kardashian, Rihanna, anybody in
the public eye, you are going to get hate. I mean,
I've had the most vile things said to me. I've

(37:36):
had stalkers. I've had two stalkers. So just be prepared,
like try to put yourself. You can't really prepare for it,
like you think, oh, I might get a little famous,
but just really keep that into consideration because your privacy
just goes away for like for me, like I said,
years like, I mean, wouldn't I couldn't go places. I

(37:56):
lost my privacy and that was really hard for me
because I was kind of this free spirit in Santa
Monica and I didn't think it through all the way.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
I guess, well, I don't know if anybody can. And
this is what I always say about people that say, oh,
Courtney knew, she knew what she was signing up for,
she was going on the You don't. They don't. I
don't care how long the show's been on the air.
You can't comprehend how your life can change if you
are the one now for ninety five percent of the
people on the show. Your life won't change positive. Yeah,

(38:29):
it could be positive or whatever, but whether it's good
or bad, there's certain people that just pop in. Your
life changes and it can be a wonderful thing and
lead to money and all that, but it can be
very difficult. And I try to tell people, Yeah, there's
no way Courtney could have prepared herself, even being a wonderful,
talented model coming into this understanding dating a celebrity. No way,

(38:52):
no way you can prepare for it.

Speaker 6 (38:54):
It's like the ABC, It's like any show, like now
they have these amazing Netflix dating shows, like you just
get rust into the life.

Speaker 3 (39:01):
I didn't.

Speaker 6 (39:01):
I guess I didn't realize what a big show it
really was, and like how passionate the fans are, and
as I'm sure you know, and I'm dying to ask
you because I thought of you during your your whole
thing that happened, and I wondered if you thought of
like the villains, Like if you, for the first time
in your life, felt that blowback in such a big

(39:24):
way that maybe you hadn't before.

Speaker 1 (39:25):
It was a great question. Two things that really gave
me perspective on the show. Going through my divorce and
going through a breakup, dating again and being back in
that world gave me such great perspective. And then yeah,
going through what I went through has made me rethink
and how I was treated by the show, by producers,
by executives, the things promises made, promises not kept, et cetera.

(39:51):
It made me sorry for some of the things that
people went through thinking. I think I was pretty naive,
thinking that there's no way certain things were happening, and
they probably were behind my back and under my nose.
I wish I'd been a little bit more aware, but
for sure, it definitely gave me a whole different perspective
on people like yourself. Honestly, it really has.

Speaker 6 (40:16):
It's a big weight on your shoulders. And for me, truthfully,
and I don't know if I haven't admitted it much,
but it was really embarrassing if the cringe the embarrassment
that I had, Like there would be days where I
just didn't leave my house.

Speaker 3 (40:29):
I was just so embarrassed and I didn't want to
face the world.

Speaker 1 (40:34):
Well, you are facing it now and you're doing so beautifully,
married children, beautiful life, and you have your podcast, so.

Speaker 6 (40:42):
It's after reality and it's really focusing on what life
is really like after reality TV, like how do you
figure it out? And yes, interviewing some celebrities and former contestants,
especially villains, and talking about motherhood and.

Speaker 3 (40:57):
What that really looks like.

Speaker 6 (40:59):
I think it's easy to see this picture perfect highlight
reel on Instagram, but it's tough.

Speaker 3 (41:05):
It's the hardest job in the world.

Speaker 6 (41:07):
And I'm going to be talking to other moms and
I think people will find it funny and relatable and
I'll definitely bring the tea in the snark.

Speaker 1 (41:14):
Courtney, thank you for taking the time. Thank you for
being such a dear friend and supporter. And you may
have been known as a villain, but let me just
say it for the whole world to hear. This woman
is anything but you are an absolute gem and I
thank you so much.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Oh gosh, anytime, Chris, I'm always in your corner.

Speaker 1 (41:32):
So good to reconnect with Courtney, and I'm so happy
that she is living this beautiful life with her husband
two kids. She's an amazing mom, one of those people
that I do keep in touch with from time to time,
and she's just been a big supporter and a dear friend,
and it's always good to see a smile on her
face and to see how she handled being a villain
at the time and how, yes, I played a part

(41:54):
in that, and as she very astutely brought up in
her question to me, if I sympathize with that more
considering what I went through And the answer emphatically as
I said, is yes, I definitely empathize and sympathize with
the villains and how they have been treated by their productions,
by executives, by fans. Very interesting, how the tables can

(42:16):
be turned. The tables definitely were turned on My next guest,
Kelly Dodd, reality television star. For sure, you have to
say that, but you also have to say quite the
villain for the Real Housewives of Orange County.

Speaker 5 (42:40):
He said, I love you and then picked someone else.
They haven't spoken in seven years. For the first time
since their television breakup, they are reunited bachelor Ben Higgins,
Bachelorette Joe, Joe Fletcher, and Jordan Rodgers together for the

(43:07):
first time and you get to hear it all. Join
Ashley I and Ben Haygen's along with Jojoe Fletcher, and
Jordan Rodgers on the Almost Famous podcast available now wherever
you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 1 (43:24):
Joining me from her house in Orange County. Kelly Dodd
from the Real Housewives of Orange County, one of the
more infamous housewives. I would say of all time, is
that is that fair?

Speaker 4 (43:35):
I hope so, I don't know.

Speaker 3 (43:36):
I think that's pretty good.

Speaker 1 (43:37):
I mean, I think it's pretty fair. You were clearly
a great housewife fan favorite. But would you also say
you were a villain? Is that fair?

Speaker 4 (43:48):
I feel like I was attacked and I just stoock
up for myself. But I wouldn't say I did anything,
you know, and look into people's business. I didn't make
up rumors. I didn't do anything like that. I mean,
I don't feel like I was a villain.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
I always find it interesting because I've been on both
sides of this, as far as being the host of
the Bachelor Bacherette for so long, and I saw how
it worked, but I also saw it happened naturally, meaning
sometimes producers are involved and there's clever editing and all that,
But then sometimes people just didn't resonate with the audience

(44:25):
the way I thought they would, and they became a
quote unquote villain. What camp do you fall in? Would
you say some editing producing or was it just the
way you were taken by the fans?

Speaker 4 (44:36):
I think it was just the way I was taken
by the fans. I think they did. You know, they
showed they provoked me. They they tried to, you know,
poke the bear, my buttons, poked the bear, like making
up rumors, you know, saying I did a sex train
which I've never even had a pretty some you know,
making up trying to get me drunk, trying to get

(45:00):
you know, trying to make up rumors saying that you know,
I cheated on my head. They're just like awful, nasty
things where I felt like, you know, I have a
daughter that was young at the time, and it was
just like unnecessary lies that and I felt like I
needed to defend myself. It I it was all meant. Now,

(45:24):
was there editing involved? I mean were they yeah, yeah,
like poke the bear, get her drunk? Yes, there was
and there, But but I think, you know, half, like
like Andy Cohen said, I'm polarizing. Half the country likes
me and half the country doesn't, you know, And I
think that's what reality is, right.

Speaker 1 (45:45):
Like, that's not a good good reality TV for sure.
It makes you think it provokes you to make up
your own opinion on somebody mm hmm. And the main
thing is I was always wondering, you know, with with
all villains that are coming on today's show. You know,
if they felt like they were for the most part,
it is TV. If you, for the most part were
portrayed as Kelly Dot if you felt like, yeah, that's me,

(46:07):
you know, that was me speaking my piece.

Speaker 4 (46:11):
It's not me. It's not They don't show all of me.
They only show snippets of me. So what you see
on that show isn't me. Like I do a daily
show on YouTube called The Daily Smash, the Rick and
Kelly Show, and I do it every single day and
everybody that writes my comments because I wish they would

(46:31):
have showed this side of you on TV, Like, they
don't show that part of me. They only show the
parts were the conflict resolution kind of. They didn't see
my day to day how I react and how I
really am on the daily you know. And also I

(46:52):
was going I was in a bad relationship. I was
in a bad marriage, and that also I wasn't in
the right head space at the time, so you know,
you know, they never told me what to say or
what to do. That was on me, So I mean,
I have to own that. However it is produced. It

(47:14):
is trying to make you look bad and horrible in
a lot of ways. But whenever I said that came
out of my mouth, came out of my mouth myself.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Well, and do you to that point, do you regret anything?
Or do you feel like you were always defending yourself?
Is there anything you look back and you're like, maybe
I shouldn't have called her a pig or said some
of these things. Maybe I went a little too far.

Speaker 4 (47:38):
No, I don't regret anything. What I do regret is
even dancing or entertaining like rumors, you know, like entertaining
that like I should have just walked away and not
even entertained it because it's garbage and it was lies,
and I should have just said, like I shouldn't even
have entertained.

Speaker 1 (48:00):
That's one of the hardest things to do. I always
talked to about that when there are things thrown your way,
and I dealt with this myself when I went through
my situation. The hardest thing in the world to do
is shut up and not speak, because you want to speak,
but all that does is fan the flames, and it
gives the story legs, and it gives everybody another thing
to write about and talk about. So it is hard
to not defend yourself because it's counterintuitive to somebody who's

(48:23):
strong and independent.

Speaker 4 (48:25):
Mm hmm, well, I think that what I did wrong
for me was I that whole COVID thing. I feel
like if I would have just like, not been on
social media, I would have I wouldn't I still still
have a high paying job. But also I'm happy that

(48:45):
I out was outspoken what I do regret. I didn't
do anything on the show and that Annie Coney said that.

Speaker 1 (48:54):
So you're you're referring to why you were eventually fired
from the show, right, is there a world in which
you would ever go back to the Real Housewives?

Speaker 4 (49:04):
You know, you know, it's so funny that you say
that I loved the money.

Speaker 3 (49:09):
I loved it, and.

Speaker 4 (49:11):
I absolutely did.

Speaker 1 (49:12):
Does it pay well paid?

Speaker 5 (49:15):
Well?

Speaker 4 (49:15):
I was getting paid, you know, almost half a million
dollars a seison, yes, a season. Yeah, it's a big chunk.
And now that but I made more money on that
because I did meet and greets and I got to
you know, speaking engagements, and so it was you know,
I mean it was a lucrative job, but it got there.

(49:39):
You didn't get paid that your first second season, you know.
I was on there for five years. Yeah, but it
was a lucrative, easy job. You know, all I had
to do was film for four months and then do
you know, press and do those confessionals. I mean it
was easy.

Speaker 1 (49:58):
Yeah. They've monetized that show very well with Bravocan and
all that that stuff. That's something that the Bachler Bacherette
never did. They just could never get their ducks in
a row and pull it out to do that. Because
it's brilliant. There's a whole other cottage industry outside of this.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (50:13):
Well before that, before the bravocns, I used to go
do these these junkets with Derinda and Teresa Judais and
Dolores and Tamra and we'd go like to Mohegan's son
and do these meet and greets, and Bravo saw that
we were making money doing that, and then they're like,
uh uh uh huh, yeah, we're doing Bravocon and you know, uh,

(50:36):
you're not going to be making more money. Well we're
going to be We're the ones that are going to
be making money.

Speaker 1 (50:41):
Well, do you find it ironic to a certain degree
that they created, helped create this persona for you, this villainous,
you know housewife. That's that's how they made ratings, that's
how they made money, and then they turn around and
fired you for being that person in real life.

Speaker 4 (51:03):
Right, I don't feel like I'm like again, I don't
feel like I'm a villain. I didn't cheat people out
of anything. I'd never been to prison. I I you know,
I didn't lie in court and say that you know,
you know, lie on my taxes, file bankruptcy. I mean,
I don't know. I don't know how I.

Speaker 1 (51:23):
Which A host of housewives have done all this stuff
has been done.

Speaker 4 (51:26):
I'm not, you know, a villain, but those people are villains.
I'm just outspoken. But it's I guess, like again, there's
I have a huge following, you know I have. I
have a close to a million followers that never paid
for and they like what I have to say and
what I stand for. I was too real for that Housewives.

Speaker 1 (51:48):
Yeah, interesting, that's interesting. It was like it was good
for them when they needed it, and then when it
got to be too much, they didn't like that.

Speaker 4 (51:58):
They didn't like anything that I had to say I
was too real for the Housewives.

Speaker 1 (52:03):
Well, Kelly, I really wanted to talk to you because
you know, we're doing this entire episode on villains, and
I again, because of my perspective on this, I always
found it just very interesting who resonated and why And
the overall thing that I always said when I was
hosting the show is these are still people. I know

(52:26):
you see Kelly dot on Real Housewives, but this is
a real woman who has a real family and living
a real life. Right And did you do you find
that fans and viewers had a tough time separating those two.

Speaker 4 (52:39):
I don't know, you know, because I'm you know, I
have a Patreon. You know, I have a patreon on
YouTube and I have you know, I'm making a living
off of that because I do have a lot of
fans that I think just like I do. Yeah, and
that's the reality. You know, half the people think like

(53:00):
I do and have the people don't. But you know,
if people want to portray me as a villain, you know,
and that's the thing, Like they came out with the
Ultimate Girls Trip of Villains, uh huh, they didn't pick me.
If if that was a villain. How come they didn't
pick me? They just don't like what I have to say.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
They think that I am a villain, right, very interesting. Well, Kelly,
I appreciate your time and your insight on this and
kind of opening the door to what it was like
to be known as a villain on a reality show,
whether you are or aren't in the real world. And
I appreciate it.

Speaker 4 (53:34):
Well, thank you so much for having me. It was
great talking to you and seeing you.

Speaker 1 (53:37):
All Right, Kelly, take care, all right, take care.

Speaker 4 (53:40):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (53:41):
My thanks to Kelly Dodd, Courtney Robertson, Richard Hatch. These
three human beings who were unknown the day before they
stepped foot on the set of The Real Housewives, The Bachelor,
and Survivor. But now are sonon with those shows and
with reality TV and with being a reality TV villain

(54:05):
and what that means. But if you take anything away,
as I told Courtney, and I've said this many times
to people that have been on The Bachelor and Bacherette,
these are people. These are real people. And I know
many fans listening and on social media will say, well,
that's what they signed up for, yes, and no, I

(54:26):
can't begin to tell you how being shot out of
a cannon without a net on the other side feels.
But that is what it's like. Your hair is on
fire and you're shot out of this cannon. You thought
there would be some press, Yeah, you thought you might
catch some grief on social media. But when you are
the quote unquote villain or even the star of the show,

(54:46):
I just don't think you can really prepare yourself for that.
So maybe, in the immortal words of Richard Hatch, know
who you are before you step on set. Know you
have that confidence because trying to figure out in the
middle of it is not going to work. Good lesson
in life and a great show today, and I thank
you all for being here, and I think my guest,
as always, I love diving into this subject matter. I

(55:09):
love having real conversations, and I love having those conversations
with you. And I will talk to you next time
because we have a lot more to talk about. Thanks
for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most dramatic
pod ever and make sure to write us a review
and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you next time.