January 22, 2024 • 29 mins
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Chris Harrison and Lauren Zema coming to you from the
home office in Austin, Texas, where today we're talking about
sex Baby, just you and me, well and Xander and Vanessa.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And all of you at home, because we got some
questions from you all. For Vanessa and Xander Marin. They
are a couple who works together in the sex, marriage
and family therapy space. They have a podcast, they've ran
a New York Times best selling book, and so we
did one incredible episode with them where we just kind
of got to know them a little bit and talk
(00:40):
through some big picture stuff. And then now we are
getting specific with questions, burning questions, burning desire questions that
you all have.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
So without further ado, let's bring back Vanessa and Xander
to the most dramatic podcast ever. Vanessa and Xander, thank
you guys so much for joining us for a second episode.
So that first episode, if you haven't listened to it,
go back. We covered a lot about relationships, We covered
a lot about the basics. We had a lot of
(01:12):
questions from our listeners who wanted to get deeper, no
pun intended. Why does everything sound sexual when you're having
a sex.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Talk, everything can be made sexual.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yes, everything in your home.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
You are sex a couple that works together in sex therapy.
At this point, do you acknowledge the puns and jokes
or do you just move right past them and you're
over it?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Oh, we're so cheesy. We were making all the joke.
Any chance we can get to turn something into a
sex joke.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
It's how we flirt.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, okay, babe, you reached out. We got a ton
of questions from our listeners. Just start firing. We'll see
how many of these we can get through.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Okay, Well, you guys are all about as we were
just saying starting the conversation. So here's a question about
conversations with sex in your relationship. This person wants to
know when do you first share your fantasies with someone
you're dating. When should you have that first conversation not
just about sex, but these are my fantasies.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Great question. So our book Sex Talks is the five
conversations that will transform your level life. Talking about fantasies
is the fifth conversation in a specific order. Because we
wanted to guide people through it and make it feel
like a very manageable process, not overwhelming or intimidating. So
I would wait until you've had other conversations. So I'll
(02:30):
tell you what the five conversations are. The first one
is acknowledgment, where you're just getting comfortable talking about sex
as a topic of conversation. The second one is actually connection.
What do we need to feel close to each other
and intimate with each other, because there's a big, big
role that emotional intimacy plays in sexual intimacy. The third
(02:50):
conversation is desire. What do we need to feel turned
on and get excited about being with each other? Fourth,
we have pleasure, what do we each need to feel good?
And then fifth is exploration what do we want to
try next? So talking about fantasy's secret desires, all that
type of stuff, wait until you have the foundation of
the other conversations.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
First. Yeah, that being said, though, I think that you know,
you might hear that and think, oh god, well that
that's going to take a couple of years. I got
to get really deep in my relationship. But the reality
is if you are, you know, starting a new relationship
or dating someone, you can actually have a lot of
those conversations pretty naturally. And quickly in the early stages
of a relationship, you know, especially like as you start
(03:31):
having sex for the first time, you know, you can
start to work those in pretty easily where it takes
a lot of time. Actually are people who have been
in relationships for many, many years and have no foundation
of talking about this stuff. So I think that you
can actually get to the fantasy stuff fairly quickly if
you from the very beginning are just working in sex
(03:51):
as Hey, this is this is an important topic of
conversation that I want to be able to come naturally
to us and oh, as we start having sex, like,
oh yeah, how do we feel connected? What are the
things that are making each other feel good? So it
doesn't have to be a big scary thing.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
By the way, on that note, I mean I wish
resources like you all were around when I was in
college and all that. At that point, my friends and
I were just watching Sex in the City and trying
to learn everything we could, and I remember on Sex
and the City, like I think it was from that
show there was talk about, you know, the third date rule,
or like, as a sex therapist, as a couple who
works in this space, do you think there's a healthy
(04:28):
amount of time to wait to have sex with someone
when you should start having sex in a relationship when
you're dating.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I don't think that there's one crystal clear rule that
we should all follow. I mean, we had sex pretty
early on in our relationship as well, and it wasn't
anything that you know, destroyed the relationship or oh he
wasn't interested. I think people put so much weight on
that decision, But really all we need to think about
in the moment is what do I genuinely feel open
(04:56):
to in this moment. And I would think about it
as well in terms of not putting anything on it,
like I would be happy to have sex with this person,
and if it ends here, it ends here. If it
continues on, it continues on. I think where we get
ourselves into trouble is trying to use sex as a
way to get the relationship to progress.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I'm curious. I want to take the topic we were
just on about having these conversations a little bit further
because I'm sure there is a level of people being
worried about being embarrassed about crossing that line. Like we've
had good sex, everything's pretty good. But I'm just trying
to think off the top of my head. I'd really
like you to choke me out or spank me a little,
(05:39):
or backdoor play things that you might go, oh, god, like,
am I going to push this person away? If I'm
asking for something that is quote unquote taboo.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I'll give you a little trick to do it. We
call this the dream scheme. So what you can do
is tell your partner I had a dream about it.
So you know what, I had the funniest dream last night.
It was this really sexy dream. We were doing a
little backdoor play. You know, It's not something that I've
ever really thought about before, but that dream was pretty
sexy and it got me thinking. So obviously, you're not
(06:11):
telling the complete truth with care, which I have to
say as a therapist and do like people to tell
the truth. But I think this can be a nice
way to like ease into a conversation because it gives
you an out. So if your partner says, oh ooh,
that sounds kind of weird, then you can just back
out of it and like, oh yeah, just like a
weird dream that I had. So it gives you an
opportunity to save face. But your partner might also say
(06:31):
something like, oh, that's kind of interesting. I've never thought
about that either, And then it just gives you a
softer way to continue the conversation and say, well, you know, yeah,
I had the dream, so maybe we should try it out.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
You can alsow it's the back door into backdoring.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Yes, and you can also use podcasts too. So I
was listening to this podcast and they.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Were talking about.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I love that. Yeah, I mean, I had this dream
the other night that you bought me this diamond tennis
bracelet and I don't know, it's just this dream that
I had and I'm just kidding you know what. That's funny.
That leads into one of the funnier questions we got,
and I say funny with all the love, just because
of the way it was worded. Quote is everyone having
anal sex?
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Now help exclamation points. So we've pulled our audience about this.
We actually put up the question like are you curious
about anal play? And sixty nine percent of people said
that they were, which endlessly delighted us. That numbers is
our favorite number. But yeah, a lot of people are
(07:35):
very at least very curious about it. And I think
it's a great example of how taboo changes over time.
This used to be something that people would never admit
to doing, and now we're talking about it more openly,
We're getting more curious about it, We're being willing to
admit that we're curious about it, and I think that's
a great thing. At the end of the day, it's
(07:57):
just a body part. It has nerve and like so
many other sensitive parts of our bodies, and it's something
worth exploring.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I remember because there was just a profile on her.
I remember it was a pretty big thing that doctor
Ruth who was such a pioneer in the world, but
she was like very famously anti anal. Is that So
do you you think when you say the taboos changed, like,
do you feel like people are just I don't know what.
What do you think has made it change? Because that's
(08:27):
interesting to me.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
I think it's just people being willing to talk about
it more openly. And we've you know, it's been in
media and TV shows and movies which a lot of
us like take our cues from. People are just starting
to talk about it more and so it gives us
that permission to say, like, oh, somebody else is talking
about it. I guess it's okay for me to consider
it within myself. And so that's what I think. You know,
part of the reason that Xander and I try to
(08:50):
be so vulnerable and open about our own relationship and
our own sex life is to kind of be that
example for people and help them realize like, hey, we're
a real couple. We can talk about this stuff too,
and help them feel more comfortable than it is.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
That being said, I do think that, you know, some
people can really get in their heads about fantasies or
about curiosities and think, oh, if I'm if I'm thinking
about this, I have to try this, or I need
to try this. And I think that you know, very
often curiosities or fantasies, like they can be things that
we just enjoy fantasizing about. They don't always have to
(09:26):
be things that we want to play out in real life.
And I like calling that out because I think people
can get you can get a little freaked out about things,
and very often, you know, it's it's fun to think
about something, or it's fun to talk dirty about something,
but I think it's important to ask yourself, hey, is
this something that you know I want to try right now?
(09:46):
Because you know, we don't want people rushing into things.
I think, especially with stuff like anal play, people kind
of can rush into it very quickly and be like, Okay,
let's try this. We're gonna go all the way, rather
than like, oh, let's ease our way into this and
you know you can. That can be a much more
enjoyable experience. A lot of people end up kind of
just going all in with it, don't have a very
(10:08):
good experience and go, oh, that's not for me. So
I think it's important to take some time to play
around with your fantasy, think through, oh, yeah, is this
fun just in my head? Or is the idea of
doing this in real life actually sounding good, and give
yourself some time to ease into it and thinking about, Okay,
if I do want to do it in real life,
what are some baby steps that I could take to
(10:31):
kind of try this out Rather than jumping in full steam.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Let's learn to swim first.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I love that, Yeah, because then you're gonna be like
it won't like we just you just said it won't
be good, and then you're going to close the door
on it completely.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I'm going to kind of combine two questions because one
listener asked about bringing toys into the bedroom, and if
you have a suggestion as far as toys go, and
I'll go so far farther is to bring in another
question about watching porn together. Plus's minus benefits negatives to that.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah, so both of these things can be great things
to bring into the bedroom. With toys, I think one
of the best starting places if you're a male female partnering,
do a vibrating cockring, so that way there's a little
bit of something fun for both of you to play with.
He gets that added pressure around his penis, she gets
the stimulation from the vibrator. He gets the stimulation from
(11:33):
the vibrator too. But it's just gonna be a fun
toy to feel like you're both playing with it together.
So that's a great option to try. When it comes
to porn, porn is a really complicated topic. I think
the basic reality of like, watching other people have sex
is hot, it's very entertaining, it's arousing, it can be
a fun thing to do together. As a sex therapist,
(11:56):
I do want to encourage people to seek out ethical
porn because there are a lot of issues with the
porn industry, but fortunately there are some amazing people who
are trying to make porn more ethical, more realistic, because
you know, a big thing that comes up with porn
is that porn sex isn't how sex looks like in
real life, and so we need to be really careful
about about resetting expectations when we're watching it.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I'm fascinated by ethical porn, can you? But what are
some resources people have?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
No?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Because it's true, I mean, I you know, look, I'm
a millennial. I think all the time. My girlfriends and
I have talked about this. We're the first generation that
had a lot of internet access as teenagers on and
so there's this like generation of people who grew up
with pretty easy access to pretty hardcore porn. And I'm
(12:46):
you know, I'm that's a whole topic we could get
into about how that's affected everything. But what are some
resources for ethical, realistic porn.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It's a tricky question to ask because porn preferences are
so unique, So which people literally just google ethical porn
and look at some of the producers that come up,
But basically you want to dig a little bit deeper,
not just going for the free sites, and often you
have to pay for these as well, which I think
is a worthy investment to know that it's being made
in a responsible.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Way, all right, from watching other people to having sex
to bringing someone into the bedroom. And by the way,
these are all real questions, but of course, not including
anybody's names, just wanted people to feel they couldn't obviously
asked these, So I got one question, short and sweet.
Are threesomes a bad idea? I think they mean if
(13:36):
you're in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I think three someomes are a perfect example of what
Xander was just talking about a few minutes ago, where
a lot of people fantasize about threesomes and then immediately think, oh,
that means I need to do it. And for a
lot of couples, you might actually have a lot more
fun just fantasizing about it. So you fantasizing about it
in your head, you can fantasize about it together, you
(13:58):
can talk dirty about it. You can maybe watch some
porn that has threesomes in it. But I would be
really thoughtful about, like, do I actually want to do
this in real life or do I just like the
idea of playing with it in my head?
Speaker 4 (14:11):
Yeah, or like what might this feel like in real life?
And kind of playing out. What is it going to
feel like if I see you know my you know,
I'm being paid attention to a little less and maybe
my partner is getting on better with this other person.
What's it going to be like once we finish? What's
the conversation.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
That's a big question. What will this feel like ten
minutes after?
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yes, yeah, but thinking really thinking through the details of
what will I feel like watching my partner with another person?
Will it strip up insecurities for me? Will I be
comparing my body to the other person, like trying to
think through all the details of it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Do you have one you want to usk?
Speaker 4 (14:48):
No?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Go ahead, Okay, this question is really interesting to me.
I'm just fascinated by where you might how you might
take this. But someone messaged just and asked how much
of a factor is lack of sex when it comes
to divorce.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
It definitely is a huge factor. Sex is one of
the top three reasons why couples break up. Kids, money,
and sex are the big three. And I think it's
really an indicator of how, like most of us, we
tend to compartmentalize sex. We think of it as just
this thing of like, oh, that's just this thing that
happens in the bedroom with the doors closed and the
(15:27):
lights off. But the reality is that sex is intimacy.
Sex is a way that we convey our love for
our partner. It's a way that we play with our partner,
that we're present in the moment with them.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Yeah, we feel connected.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, it's a really important part of a relationship. And
obviously for every couple it's a different level of importance,
and that's fine too, but it truly is a very
central thing for most relationships. So I want to encourage
couples not to just write it off it's like, oh,
it's just sex, it's just this physical thing. To recognize
that it's about a deeper intimacy. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
But then on the flip side of that, it's like
not falling into the trap of, oh, we got to
have sex to tick the box. We've got to have it,
you know, three times a week in order to keep
my partner happy or so that we don't get divorced.
It's it is that focusing on the quality of it,
you know, talking about it, making sure it's something that
you each know is important to each other, rather than
(16:21):
it just being okay, well, you know, this is sort
of like my divorce insurance, it's doing saxax number of times.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
A very common conversation is about sex drive. Very rarely
do our sex drives align perfectly. Somebody is a little
more fired up than the other person. And then the
next one is I'm going to steal a stat from
your social media about initiating and that forty five percent
(16:48):
of relationships the woman is actually initiating more than the man,
which is so it's pretty close to fifty to fifty, right.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, the moments the one who has the higher desire.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So talk about if you're in a relationship where maybe
someone's not initiating enough, and then also where sex drives
don't align, how we can still be compatible, still be intimate,
and still have a very healthy sex life.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
The most important thing to know here is that just
about every couple is going to have mismatch sex drives.
We all get so scared about this, like, oh, is
our desire mismatch? But that's the case for everybody. It
would be too weird of a coincidence that every single
time you want to have sex, your partner is magically
rarn and ready to go, and they want to have
the exact same kind of sex that you want to
(17:31):
have every single time, like it just it does not happen.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
It's kind of like if it's Friday night and you're like, oh,
let's go out to dinner. It would be like if
the expectation is were we both are going to say
what cuisine we want right now and it has to
be the exact same thing, and if it's not, like
oh my god, we're just not meant to be, like
we can't decide on what.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
So, just like I think people place too much of
an emphasis on frequency, I also think we place too
much of an emphasis on desire because what often happens is,
let's say your partner initiates with you. In that moment,
you usually feel almost this pop quiz kind of feeling.
You feel off guard, like, oh my god, wait, they
want to have sex right now. I'm not writing for sex.
(18:11):
I wasn't thinking about it, And so a lot of
us will just say no to our partner in that moment,
and we feel like kind of ashamed and embarrassed about it.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
So that's the problem that happens if we really prioritize desire,
this feeling of like, oh, you had to be in
the mood for it an exact moment that I was.
So instead, I recommend that couples think about it in
terms of openness, Not do I want to have sex
with my partner? Am I magically horny in the exact
same moment that they were? But to be able to
say to yourself in the moment, Oh, my partner wants
(18:41):
to connect with me right now? Am I open to
connecting with them? Am I open to seeing if I
can get in the mood and turned on? So if
we kind of delay the timeline, give ourselves a little
bit more space in that way, we're gonna be saying
yes to our partner so much more often.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
That was that was so freeing what you just said, truly,
because like the comparison of do we both want the
exact same dinner at the exact same time, No, And
every couple out there probably spends way more time debating
where they're going to go to dinner than they do.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Like it would not only be anything at the same
time on the count of three, say where we're going
to dinner, what we're going to order off the menu,
and and what or like it would be lining those
things up, which is never gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah, that was so relieving.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I sort of feel like that took a weight off
my shoulders. Thank you guys, because you know, there's and
it's not just like sometimes I think with us. I mean,
Chris is seventeen years older than me. I just saw
Lisa Rinna say the other day. She's like, well, it's interesting.
You know her and Harry Hamlin have been married for
a long time, and she's like, his sex drive is changing,
my sex drive is changing. So we not only have
(19:46):
the factor of being a man and a woman, but
like our ages are different. I don't know if that
means like when I'm I don't know, perimenopausal, will I'd
be different? And where will he be at? You know,
So there's a lot of factors of like the differences
both mentally but also physiologically and all that.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Oh absolutely, And yeah, I'm so glad to hear that.
It felt like a weight coming off of your shoulders
because I think we all put this pressure on ourselves
and when we have this misunderstanding about desire and mismatched
sex drives, it just creates so much pressure and at
the end of the day, like we're in relationships with
our partner because we love them, we care about them,
we want to feel close and connected to them. And
(20:25):
we just see so many couples like because of these
basic misunderstandings about sex and intimacy, just missing each other,
missing these opportunities to really connect with each other. And
I think initiation is the perfect example of that. Like,
if we change change around the way that it works,
we're actually going to connect with each other so much
more often.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Before we let you go, there has to be things
that we have not touched on that you get a lot,
are there? You know, please don't let us go without.
Oh I wish they had asked about this.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Oh my gosh, there's so many different ways that we
can go with that one. You know, one really important
thing that we should talk about as we're talking about
initiation too, is also the different sex drive types. So
most people don't realize that there are two different sex
drive types. The two types are spontaneous and responsive, and
they boil down to where we feel desire first, So
(21:28):
we can feel desire in our heads, Like the idea
of sex sounds good. It kind of maybe it pops
into your head randomly and you're like, ohyah, that sounds nice.
And we can also get turned on physically in our bodies,
so getting erections, getting wet, nipples, getting hard, all kinds
of stuff like that. And so the two types boil
down to where you're going to feel desire first. So
(21:49):
with spontaneous desire, you feel it mentally and then your
body gets ready for it, and that's it.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
This is what we see on TV in the movies.
That's that you turn and look at you know, someone
says something witty, You turn and look and it's like, oh,
it's on. We both want it. We don't even need
to say anything.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
He is so witty.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I'm going to get naked in the middle of this restaurant. Yes.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
So the second type of desire is the exact opposite,
and that's where our bodies need to get turned on
first before mentally. The idea of sex sounds good, and
research has shown that most women are responsive desire types.
So a classic way to know that you might be
responsive desire is if you've ever been in the middle
of sex, or maybe even at the end of sex,
(22:31):
and you catch yourself thinking, this is really fun. Why
do I never seem to want this? Or why don't
I want this more? Often that's responsive desire because your
body needs to feel excited, turned on, feeling pleasure first,
and then your brain starts to catch up and think like, oh, yeah,
this is good, this is fun. So most women who
(22:52):
are responsive desire types think of themselves as being low desire,
no desire. They think of themselves as its being broken
in some sort of way, and really it's just a
misunderstanding about how your desire works. You're not going to
be able to ask a responsive sex drive person like
do you want to have sex right now?
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Right now?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah? Like right, and then what what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
No?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I wasn't thinking about that.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And do you find men you mentioned women? Are men responsive?
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yes? Men tend to be more responsive.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
No, men tend to be more spartaneous.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yes, men tend to be more spontaneous.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Right, but I know you mentioned it, but I was like,
are there do you find men that are responsive?
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Oh? Absolutely absolutely, I have been. You know, early in
our relationship, I was much more of a responsive sex
drife type and it took me a long time of
really coming to terms with that and understanding what that
meant and understanding Okay, I just need to give myself
a little time, like you know, if if Vanessa's wanting
(23:48):
to have sex, or even if I want to have sex,
but I'm not really feeling like the desire for it.
I realise, oh, I need to put myself in a
situation to start to feel some desire. So put myself
in a situation where oh, let's let's kiss, let's make out,
let's cuddle, let's you know, just do something, you know,
just us in the bedroom, and started to realize, oh, yeah,
(24:09):
once I give myself five or ten minutes of doing this,
like oh boom, all of a sudden, like I am,
I am ready to go. And so it was kind
of flipping that mindset of like, oh, it's not about
how much I want it in any given moment, Like
that's not what defines me as a man or my sexuality.
It's like it's like it's just understanding, Oh, this is
this is what I need. It's just like some people
(24:31):
remember things really well. Some people need to make lists,
some people you know, need to use their calendar or whatever.
And it's like I just needed to come to terms
with that and understand, oh yeah, this is this is
how it works for me. And what I will say
is that as I have gotten better and better at
that and more in tune with that and more confident
in that, you know, I feel like my desire is
really shifted to be more in the middle because now
(24:53):
that amount of time is really shrunk. I'm like, I know, okay, yeah,
it's just kind of take me a couple seconds of
talking about it or touching or whatever before I'm fired
up and ready to go. But I think for you know,
most people need to start to understand that and start
taking action, building that habit of oh, these are the
(25:13):
things that I need to do to get ready, and
then very often that amount of time can really start
to shrink down.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Again. This is all feeling like such a weight lifted.
I have to be honest, and this isn't fair to Chris.
But if I, well, if I were to get very
pretty real for a second, I think I put pressure
on him of like, if he's not you know, it's
probably growing up with the stereotypes of men and that
they're like so sexually driven. So if he's not wanting
(25:43):
to like you know, when I'm wanting to, then I
think there's something wrong or I think like there's something
wrong with me, or I think you said earlier, Vanessa,
even like women feel broken or something. I don't know,
So do you feel like do women say that a lot?
And what do you try to tell them?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
If so?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, I felt that exact same thing myself too. You know,
we really grow up with this stereotype that men want
sex wherever, whenever. They'll take whatever they can get, right.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
If they're not getting it from us, they're getting it
from somewhere else or whatever else.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, And I think as women, we're really taught to
put so much of our value and worth into our desirability,
so that can be a really painful experience. And again
I've experienced that myself too, like times at Xander didn't
want to have sex, or maybe I initiated and he
wasn't open to it, Like I felt so ashamed and
something like something is so wrong with me? Why does
(26:34):
he not want to be with me? Am I not
sexy enough, not pretty enough, not thin enough. Like we
can go to some really dark places in our heads
when that self consciousness comes up, and of course the
challenge that is that he can feel all of that,
because now sex is not just like, hey, do we
want to connect and be intimate? In the moment together.
Now it's like, oh, he has to prove to me
(26:55):
that I'm sexy and desirable and attractive, and it just
adds this whole other layer apart sure on top of it.
So that's why I think it's so important for us
to talk about the fact that in forty five percent
of male female relationships, it's actually the woman that has
the higher desire. And I think we need to have
these more nuanced conversations about male sexuality that like men aren't,
(27:16):
you know, taking whatever they can get, or oh they're
so easy they get turned on, Like we're all human,
We're all like nuanced creatures who need different things and
who you know, things change as we get older and
evolve and have been in relationships longer, so being able
to see more of that complexity in it and for
us as women to recognize within ourselves like we are
(27:39):
worthy and desirable and beautiful. And I'm sure there are
plenty of other times where your partner's trying to give
you that message, but it doesn't all just have to
be about the sex.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Okay, maybe that's your next book, The Constant Conversation. Thank
you guys so much, Vanessa and Xander Marin. Your podcast
is pillow Talk, and if we had more time, I
would get into you with that, because into that with you,
because I was just listening to your episode about, you know,
talking about your choice to not have kids and what
that meant for you as a couple. There's so much
(28:11):
great conversation there, and of course also in your book
Sex Talks.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Thank you guys so much, and Xander celebrating as a vasectomy. Yes,
I feel you, and I mean literally I feel you.
I get that and you can follow along and check
them out Vanessa and Xander on social media. I love
the digestible, very bite sized little things you guys do.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
There's a lot of sex puns there, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
But most importantly, just thank you. Thank you for you know,
breaking this taboo, having these conversations, making it normal to
have these conversations, which we all need to do. So
truly appreciate what you guys do.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Thank you so much for having us. We really appreciate
you guys using your platform to open up these conversations too.
It's it's really a great gift that you're able to
give to your community.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Thanks for listen. Follow us on Instagram at the most
dramatic pod ever, and make sure to write us a
review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you
next time.
This is the most dramatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Chris Harrison and Lauren Zema coming to you from the
home office in Austin, Texas, where today we're talking about
sex Baby, just you and me, well and Xander and Vanessa.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
And all of you at home, because we got some
questions from you all. For Vanessa and Xander Marin. They
are a couple who works together in the sex, marriage
and family therapy space. They have a podcast, they've ran
a New York Times best selling book, and so we
did one incredible episode with them where we just kind
of got to know them a little bit and talk
(00:40):
through some big picture stuff. And then now we are
getting specific with questions, burning questions, burning desire questions that
you all have.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
So without further ado, let's bring back Vanessa and Xander
to the most dramatic podcast ever. Vanessa and Xander, thank
you guys so much for joining us for a second episode.
So that first episode, if you haven't listened to it,
go back. We covered a lot about relationships, We covered
a lot about the basics. We had a lot of
(01:12):
questions from our listeners who wanted to get deeper, no
pun intended. Why does everything sound sexual when you're having
a sex.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
Talk, everything can be made sexual.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yes, everything in your home.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
You are sex a couple that works together in sex therapy.
At this point, do you acknowledge the puns and jokes
or do you just move right past them and you're
over it?
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Oh, we're so cheesy. We were making all the joke.
Any chance we can get to turn something into a
sex joke.
Speaker 4 (01:39):
It's how we flirt.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, okay, babe, you reached out. We got a ton
of questions from our listeners. Just start firing. We'll see
how many of these we can get through.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Okay, Well, you guys are all about as we were
just saying starting the conversation. So here's a question about
conversations with sex in your relationship. This person wants to
know when do you first share your fantasies with someone
you're dating. When should you have that first conversation not
just about sex, but these are my fantasies.
Speaker 3 (02:09):
Great question. So our book Sex Talks is the five
conversations that will transform your level life. Talking about fantasies
is the fifth conversation in a specific order. Because we
wanted to guide people through it and make it feel
like a very manageable process, not overwhelming or intimidating. So
I would wait until you've had other conversations. So I'll
(02:30):
tell you what the five conversations are. The first one
is acknowledgment, where you're just getting comfortable talking about sex
as a topic of conversation. The second one is actually connection.
What do we need to feel close to each other
and intimate with each other, because there's a big, big
role that emotional intimacy plays in sexual intimacy. The third
(02:50):
conversation is desire. What do we need to feel turned
on and get excited about being with each other? Fourth,
we have pleasure, what do we each need to feel good?
And then fifth is exploration what do we want to
try next? So talking about fantasy's secret desires, all that
type of stuff, wait until you have the foundation of
the other conversations.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
First. Yeah, that being said, though, I think that you know,
you might hear that and think, oh god, well that
that's going to take a couple of years. I got
to get really deep in my relationship. But the reality
is if you are, you know, starting a new relationship
or dating someone, you can actually have a lot of
those conversations pretty naturally. And quickly in the early stages
of a relationship, you know, especially like as you start
(03:31):
having sex for the first time, you know, you can
start to work those in pretty easily where it takes
a lot of time. Actually are people who have been
in relationships for many, many years and have no foundation
of talking about this stuff. So I think that you
can actually get to the fantasy stuff fairly quickly if
you from the very beginning are just working in sex
(03:51):
as Hey, this is this is an important topic of
conversation that I want to be able to come naturally
to us and oh, as we start having sex, like,
oh yeah, how do we feel connected? What are the
things that are making each other feel good? So it
doesn't have to be a big scary thing.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
By the way, on that note, I mean I wish
resources like you all were around when I was in
college and all that. At that point, my friends and
I were just watching Sex in the City and trying
to learn everything we could, and I remember on Sex
and the City, like I think it was from that
show there was talk about, you know, the third date rule,
or like, as a sex therapist, as a couple who
works in this space, do you think there's a healthy
(04:28):
amount of time to wait to have sex with someone
when you should start having sex in a relationship when
you're dating.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
I don't think that there's one crystal clear rule that
we should all follow. I mean, we had sex pretty
early on in our relationship as well, and it wasn't
anything that you know, destroyed the relationship or oh he
wasn't interested. I think people put so much weight on
that decision, But really all we need to think about
in the moment is what do I genuinely feel open
(04:56):
to in this moment. And I would think about it
as well in terms of not putting anything on it,
like I would be happy to have sex with this person,
and if it ends here, it ends here. If it
continues on, it continues on. I think where we get
ourselves into trouble is trying to use sex as a
way to get the relationship to progress.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I'm curious. I want to take the topic we were
just on about having these conversations a little bit further
because I'm sure there is a level of people being
worried about being embarrassed about crossing that line. Like we've
had good sex, everything's pretty good. But I'm just trying
to think off the top of my head. I'd really
like you to choke me out or spank me a little,
(05:39):
or backdoor play things that you might go, oh, god, like,
am I going to push this person away? If I'm
asking for something that is quote unquote taboo.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
I'll give you a little trick to do it. We
call this the dream scheme. So what you can do
is tell your partner I had a dream about it.
So you know what, I had the funniest dream last night.
It was this really sexy dream. We were doing a
little backdoor play. You know, It's not something that I've
ever really thought about before, but that dream was pretty
sexy and it got me thinking. So obviously, you're not
(06:11):
telling the complete truth with care, which I have to
say as a therapist and do like people to tell
the truth. But I think this can be a nice
way to like ease into a conversation because it gives
you an out. So if your partner says, oh ooh,
that sounds kind of weird, then you can just back
out of it and like, oh yeah, just like a
weird dream that I had. So it gives you an
opportunity to save face. But your partner might also say
(06:31):
something like, oh, that's kind of interesting. I've never thought
about that either, And then it just gives you a
softer way to continue the conversation and say, well, you know, yeah,
I had the dream, so maybe we should try it out.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
You can alsow it's the back door into backdoring.
Speaker 3 (06:47):
Yes, and you can also use podcasts too. So I
was listening to this podcast and they.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Were talking about.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
I love that. Yeah, I mean, I had this dream
the other night that you bought me this diamond tennis
bracelet and I don't know, it's just this dream that
I had and I'm just kidding you know what. That's funny.
That leads into one of the funnier questions we got,
and I say funny with all the love, just because
of the way it was worded. Quote is everyone having
anal sex?
Speaker 3 (07:15):
Now help exclamation points. So we've pulled our audience about this.
We actually put up the question like are you curious
about anal play? And sixty nine percent of people said
that they were, which endlessly delighted us. That numbers is
our favorite number. But yeah, a lot of people are
(07:35):
very at least very curious about it. And I think
it's a great example of how taboo changes over time.
This used to be something that people would never admit
to doing, and now we're talking about it more openly,
We're getting more curious about it, We're being willing to
admit that we're curious about it, and I think that's
a great thing. At the end of the day, it's
(07:57):
just a body part. It has nerve and like so
many other sensitive parts of our bodies, and it's something
worth exploring.
Speaker 2 (08:05):
I remember because there was just a profile on her.
I remember it was a pretty big thing that doctor
Ruth who was such a pioneer in the world, but
she was like very famously anti anal. Is that So
do you you think when you say the taboos changed, like,
do you feel like people are just I don't know what.
What do you think has made it change? Because that's
(08:27):
interesting to me.
Speaker 3 (08:28):
I think it's just people being willing to talk about
it more openly. And we've you know, it's been in
media and TV shows and movies which a lot of
us like take our cues from. People are just starting
to talk about it more and so it gives us
that permission to say, like, oh, somebody else is talking
about it. I guess it's okay for me to consider
it within myself. And so that's what I think. You know,
part of the reason that Xander and I try to
(08:50):
be so vulnerable and open about our own relationship and
our own sex life is to kind of be that
example for people and help them realize like, hey, we're
a real couple. We can talk about this stuff too,
and help them feel more comfortable than it is.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
That being said, I do think that, you know, some
people can really get in their heads about fantasies or
about curiosities and think, oh, if I'm if I'm thinking
about this, I have to try this, or I need
to try this. And I think that you know, very
often curiosities or fantasies, like they can be things that
we just enjoy fantasizing about. They don't always have to
(09:26):
be things that we want to play out in real life.
And I like calling that out because I think people
can get you can get a little freaked out about things,
and very often, you know, it's it's fun to think
about something, or it's fun to talk dirty about something,
but I think it's important to ask yourself, hey, is
this something that you know I want to try right now?
(09:46):
Because you know, we don't want people rushing into things.
I think, especially with stuff like anal play, people kind
of can rush into it very quickly and be like, Okay,
let's try this. We're gonna go all the way, rather
than like, oh, let's ease our way into this and
you know you can. That can be a much more
enjoyable experience. A lot of people end up kind of
just going all in with it, don't have a very
(10:08):
good experience and go, oh, that's not for me. So
I think it's important to take some time to play
around with your fantasy, think through, oh, yeah, is this
fun just in my head? Or is the idea of
doing this in real life actually sounding good, and give
yourself some time to ease into it and thinking about, Okay,
if I do want to do it in real life,
what are some baby steps that I could take to
(10:31):
kind of try this out Rather than jumping in full steam.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
Let's learn to swim first.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I love that, Yeah, because then you're gonna be like
it won't like we just you just said it won't
be good, and then you're going to close the door
on it completely.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
I'm going to kind of combine two questions because one
listener asked about bringing toys into the bedroom, and if
you have a suggestion as far as toys go, and
I'll go so far farther is to bring in another
question about watching porn together. Plus's minus benefits negatives to that.
Speaker 3 (11:12):
Yeah, so both of these things can be great things
to bring into the bedroom. With toys, I think one
of the best starting places if you're a male female partnering,
do a vibrating cockring, so that way there's a little
bit of something fun for both of you to play with.
He gets that added pressure around his penis, she gets
the stimulation from the vibrator. He gets the stimulation from
(11:33):
the vibrator too. But it's just gonna be a fun
toy to feel like you're both playing with it together.
So that's a great option to try. When it comes
to porn, porn is a really complicated topic. I think
the basic reality of like, watching other people have sex
is hot, it's very entertaining, it's arousing, it can be
a fun thing to do together. As a sex therapist,
(11:56):
I do want to encourage people to seek out ethical
porn because there are a lot of issues with the
porn industry, but fortunately there are some amazing people who
are trying to make porn more ethical, more realistic, because
you know, a big thing that comes up with porn
is that porn sex isn't how sex looks like in
real life, and so we need to be really careful
about about resetting expectations when we're watching it.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
I'm fascinated by ethical porn, can you? But what are
some resources people have?
Speaker 1 (12:25):
No?
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Because it's true, I mean, I you know, look, I'm
a millennial. I think all the time. My girlfriends and
I have talked about this. We're the first generation that
had a lot of internet access as teenagers on and
so there's this like generation of people who grew up
with pretty easy access to pretty hardcore porn. And I'm
(12:46):
you know, I'm that's a whole topic we could get
into about how that's affected everything. But what are some
resources for ethical, realistic porn.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
It's a tricky question to ask because porn preferences are
so unique, So which people literally just google ethical porn
and look at some of the producers that come up,
But basically you want to dig a little bit deeper,
not just going for the free sites, and often you
have to pay for these as well, which I think
is a worthy investment to know that it's being made
in a responsible.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Way, all right, from watching other people to having sex
to bringing someone into the bedroom. And by the way,
these are all real questions, but of course, not including
anybody's names, just wanted people to feel they couldn't obviously
asked these, So I got one question, short and sweet.
Are threesomes a bad idea? I think they mean if
(13:36):
you're in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
I think three someomes are a perfect example of what
Xander was just talking about a few minutes ago, where
a lot of people fantasize about threesomes and then immediately think, oh,
that means I need to do it. And for a
lot of couples, you might actually have a lot more
fun just fantasizing about it. So you fantasizing about it
in your head, you can fantasize about it together, you
(13:58):
can talk dirty about it. You can maybe watch some
porn that has threesomes in it. But I would be
really thoughtful about, like, do I actually want to do
this in real life or do I just like the
idea of playing with it in my head?
Speaker 4 (14:11):
Yeah, or like what might this feel like in real life?
And kind of playing out. What is it going to
feel like if I see you know my you know,
I'm being paid attention to a little less and maybe
my partner is getting on better with this other person.
What's it going to be like once we finish? What's
the conversation.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
That's a big question. What will this feel like ten
minutes after?
Speaker 3 (14:33):
Yes, yeah, but thinking really thinking through the details of
what will I feel like watching my partner with another person?
Will it strip up insecurities for me? Will I be
comparing my body to the other person, like trying to
think through all the details of it.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Do you have one you want to usk?
Speaker 4 (14:48):
No?
Speaker 2 (14:48):
Go ahead, Okay, this question is really interesting to me.
I'm just fascinated by where you might how you might
take this. But someone messaged just and asked how much
of a factor is lack of sex when it comes
to divorce.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
It definitely is a huge factor. Sex is one of
the top three reasons why couples break up. Kids, money,
and sex are the big three. And I think it's
really an indicator of how, like most of us, we
tend to compartmentalize sex. We think of it as just
this thing of like, oh, that's just this thing that
happens in the bedroom with the doors closed and the
(15:27):
lights off. But the reality is that sex is intimacy.
Sex is a way that we convey our love for
our partner. It's a way that we play with our partner,
that we're present in the moment with them.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
Yeah, we feel connected.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Yeah, it's a really important part of a relationship. And
obviously for every couple it's a different level of importance,
and that's fine too, but it truly is a very
central thing for most relationships. So I want to encourage
couples not to just write it off it's like, oh,
it's just sex, it's just this physical thing. To recognize
that it's about a deeper intimacy. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:59):
But then on the flip side of that, it's like
not falling into the trap of, oh, we got to
have sex to tick the box. We've got to have it,
you know, three times a week in order to keep
my partner happy or so that we don't get divorced.
It's it is that focusing on the quality of it,
you know, talking about it, making sure it's something that
you each know is important to each other, rather than
(16:21):
it just being okay, well, you know, this is sort
of like my divorce insurance, it's doing saxax number of times.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
A very common conversation is about sex drive. Very rarely
do our sex drives align perfectly. Somebody is a little
more fired up than the other person. And then the
next one is I'm going to steal a stat from
your social media about initiating and that forty five percent
(16:48):
of relationships the woman is actually initiating more than the man,
which is so it's pretty close to fifty to fifty, right.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, the moments the one who has the higher desire.
Speaker 1 (16:57):
So talk about if you're in a relationship where maybe
someone's not initiating enough, and then also where sex drives
don't align, how we can still be compatible, still be intimate,
and still have a very healthy sex life.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
The most important thing to know here is that just
about every couple is going to have mismatch sex drives.
We all get so scared about this, like, oh, is
our desire mismatch? But that's the case for everybody. It
would be too weird of a coincidence that every single
time you want to have sex, your partner is magically
rarn and ready to go, and they want to have
the exact same kind of sex that you want to
(17:31):
have every single time, like it just it does not happen.
Speaker 4 (17:35):
It's kind of like if it's Friday night and you're like, oh,
let's go out to dinner. It would be like if
the expectation is were we both are going to say
what cuisine we want right now and it has to
be the exact same thing, and if it's not, like
oh my god, we're just not meant to be, like
we can't decide on what.
Speaker 3 (17:50):
So, just like I think people place too much of
an emphasis on frequency, I also think we place too
much of an emphasis on desire because what often happens is,
let's say your partner initiates with you. In that moment,
you usually feel almost this pop quiz kind of feeling.
You feel off guard, like, oh my god, wait, they
want to have sex right now. I'm not writing for sex.
(18:11):
I wasn't thinking about it, And so a lot of
us will just say no to our partner in that moment,
and we feel like kind of ashamed and embarrassed about it.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Right.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
So that's the problem that happens if we really prioritize desire,
this feeling of like, oh, you had to be in
the mood for it an exact moment that I was.
So instead, I recommend that couples think about it in
terms of openness, Not do I want to have sex
with my partner? Am I magically horny in the exact
same moment that they were? But to be able to
say to yourself in the moment, Oh, my partner wants
(18:41):
to connect with me right now? Am I open to
connecting with them? Am I open to seeing if I
can get in the mood and turned on? So if
we kind of delay the timeline, give ourselves a little
bit more space in that way, we're gonna be saying
yes to our partner so much more often.
Speaker 2 (18:58):
That was that was so freeing what you just said, truly,
because like the comparison of do we both want the
exact same dinner at the exact same time, No, And
every couple out there probably spends way more time debating
where they're going to go to dinner than they do.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Like it would not only be anything at the same
time on the count of three, say where we're going
to dinner, what we're going to order off the menu,
and and what or like it would be lining those
things up, which is never gonna happen.
Speaker 3 (19:22):
Yeah, that was so relieving.
Speaker 2 (19:24):
I sort of feel like that took a weight off
my shoulders. Thank you guys, because you know, there's and
it's not just like sometimes I think with us. I mean,
Chris is seventeen years older than me. I just saw
Lisa Rinna say the other day. She's like, well, it's interesting.
You know her and Harry Hamlin have been married for
a long time, and she's like, his sex drive is changing,
my sex drive is changing. So we not only have
(19:46):
the factor of being a man and a woman, but
like our ages are different. I don't know if that
means like when I'm I don't know, perimenopausal, will I'd
be different? And where will he be at? You know,
So there's a lot of factors of like the differences
both mentally but also physiologically and all that.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
Oh absolutely, And yeah, I'm so glad to hear that.
It felt like a weight coming off of your shoulders
because I think we all put this pressure on ourselves
and when we have this misunderstanding about desire and mismatched
sex drives, it just creates so much pressure and at
the end of the day, like we're in relationships with
our partner because we love them, we care about them,
we want to feel close and connected to them. And
(20:25):
we just see so many couples like because of these
basic misunderstandings about sex and intimacy, just missing each other,
missing these opportunities to really connect with each other. And
I think initiation is the perfect example of that. Like,
if we change change around the way that it works,
we're actually going to connect with each other so much
more often.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Before we let you go, there has to be things
that we have not touched on that you get a lot,
are there? You know, please don't let us go without.
Oh I wish they had asked about this.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
Oh my gosh, there's so many different ways that we
can go with that one. You know, one really important
thing that we should talk about as we're talking about
initiation too, is also the different sex drive types. So
most people don't realize that there are two different sex
drive types. The two types are spontaneous and responsive, and
they boil down to where we feel desire first, So
(21:28):
we can feel desire in our heads, Like the idea
of sex sounds good. It kind of maybe it pops
into your head randomly and you're like, ohyah, that sounds nice.
And we can also get turned on physically in our bodies,
so getting erections, getting wet, nipples, getting hard, all kinds
of stuff like that. And so the two types boil
down to where you're going to feel desire first. So
(21:49):
with spontaneous desire, you feel it mentally and then your
body gets ready for it, and that's it.
Speaker 4 (21:55):
This is what we see on TV in the movies.
That's that you turn and look at you know, someone
says something witty, You turn and look and it's like, oh,
it's on. We both want it. We don't even need
to say anything.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
He is so witty.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
I'm going to get naked in the middle of this restaurant. Yes.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
So the second type of desire is the exact opposite,
and that's where our bodies need to get turned on
first before mentally. The idea of sex sounds good, and
research has shown that most women are responsive desire types.
So a classic way to know that you might be
responsive desire is if you've ever been in the middle
of sex, or maybe even at the end of sex,
(22:31):
and you catch yourself thinking, this is really fun. Why
do I never seem to want this? Or why don't
I want this more? Often that's responsive desire because your
body needs to feel excited, turned on, feeling pleasure first,
and then your brain starts to catch up and think like, oh, yeah,
this is good, this is fun. So most women who
(22:52):
are responsive desire types think of themselves as being low desire,
no desire. They think of themselves as its being broken
in some sort of way, and really it's just a
misunderstanding about how your desire works. You're not going to
be able to ask a responsive sex drive person like
do you want to have sex right now?
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Right now?
Speaker 3 (23:09):
Yeah? Like right, and then what what are you talking about?
Speaker 2 (23:11):
No?
Speaker 3 (23:12):
I wasn't thinking about that.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
And do you find men you mentioned women? Are men responsive?
Speaker 3 (23:17):
Yes? Men tend to be more responsive.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
No, men tend to be more spartaneous.
Speaker 3 (23:21):
Yes, men tend to be more spontaneous.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Right, but I know you mentioned it, but I was like,
are there do you find men that are responsive?
Speaker 4 (23:28):
Oh? Absolutely absolutely, I have been. You know, early in
our relationship, I was much more of a responsive sex
drife type and it took me a long time of
really coming to terms with that and understanding what that
meant and understanding Okay, I just need to give myself
a little time, like you know, if if Vanessa's wanting
(23:48):
to have sex, or even if I want to have sex,
but I'm not really feeling like the desire for it.
I realise, oh, I need to put myself in a
situation to start to feel some desire. So put myself
in a situation where oh, let's let's kiss, let's make out,
let's cuddle, let's you know, just do something, you know,
just us in the bedroom, and started to realize, oh, yeah,
(24:09):
once I give myself five or ten minutes of doing this,
like oh boom, all of a sudden, like I am,
I am ready to go. And so it was kind
of flipping that mindset of like, oh, it's not about
how much I want it in any given moment, Like
that's not what defines me as a man or my sexuality.
It's like it's like it's just understanding, Oh, this is
this is what I need. It's just like some people
(24:31):
remember things really well. Some people need to make lists,
some people you know, need to use their calendar or whatever.
And it's like I just needed to come to terms
with that and understand, oh yeah, this is this is
how it works for me. And what I will say
is that as I have gotten better and better at
that and more in tune with that and more confident
in that, you know, I feel like my desire is
really shifted to be more in the middle because now
(24:53):
that amount of time is really shrunk. I'm like, I know, okay, yeah,
it's just kind of take me a couple seconds of
talking about it or touching or whatever before I'm fired
up and ready to go. But I think for you know,
most people need to start to understand that and start
taking action, building that habit of oh, these are the
(25:13):
things that I need to do to get ready, and
then very often that amount of time can really start
to shrink down.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Again. This is all feeling like such a weight lifted.
I have to be honest, and this isn't fair to Chris.
But if I, well, if I were to get very
pretty real for a second, I think I put pressure
on him of like, if he's not you know, it's
probably growing up with the stereotypes of men and that
they're like so sexually driven. So if he's not wanting
(25:43):
to like you know, when I'm wanting to, then I
think there's something wrong or I think like there's something
wrong with me, or I think you said earlier, Vanessa,
even like women feel broken or something. I don't know,
So do you feel like do women say that a lot?
And what do you try to tell them?
Speaker 1 (25:58):
If so?
Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Yeah, I felt that exact same thing myself too. You know,
we really grow up with this stereotype that men want
sex wherever, whenever. They'll take whatever they can get, right.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
If they're not getting it from us, they're getting it
from somewhere else or whatever else.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Yeah, And I think as women, we're really taught to
put so much of our value and worth into our desirability,
so that can be a really painful experience. And again
I've experienced that myself too, like times at Xander didn't
want to have sex, or maybe I initiated and he
wasn't open to it, Like I felt so ashamed and
something like something is so wrong with me? Why does
(26:34):
he not want to be with me? Am I not
sexy enough, not pretty enough, not thin enough. Like we
can go to some really dark places in our heads
when that self consciousness comes up, and of course the
challenge that is that he can feel all of that,
because now sex is not just like, hey, do we
want to connect and be intimate? In the moment together.
Now it's like, oh, he has to prove to me
(26:55):
that I'm sexy and desirable and attractive, and it just
adds this whole other layer apart sure on top of it.
So that's why I think it's so important for us
to talk about the fact that in forty five percent
of male female relationships, it's actually the woman that has
the higher desire. And I think we need to have
these more nuanced conversations about male sexuality that like men aren't,
(27:16):
you know, taking whatever they can get, or oh they're
so easy they get turned on, Like we're all human,
We're all like nuanced creatures who need different things and
who you know, things change as we get older and
evolve and have been in relationships longer, so being able
to see more of that complexity in it and for
us as women to recognize within ourselves like we are
(27:39):
worthy and desirable and beautiful. And I'm sure there are
plenty of other times where your partner's trying to give
you that message, but it doesn't all just have to
be about the sex.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
Okay, maybe that's your next book, The Constant Conversation. Thank
you guys so much, Vanessa and Xander Marin. Your podcast
is pillow Talk, and if we had more time, I
would get into you with that, because into that with you,
because I was just listening to your episode about, you know,
talking about your choice to not have kids and what
that meant for you as a couple. There's so much
(28:11):
great conversation there, and of course also in your book
Sex Talks.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Thank you guys so much, and Xander celebrating as a vasectomy. Yes,
I feel you, and I mean literally I feel you.
I get that and you can follow along and check
them out Vanessa and Xander on social media. I love
the digestible, very bite sized little things you guys do.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
There's a lot of sex puns there, yes, exactly.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
But most importantly, just thank you. Thank you for you know,
breaking this taboo, having these conversations, making it normal to
have these conversations, which we all need to do. So
truly appreciate what you guys do.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
Thank you so much for having us. We really appreciate
you guys using your platform to open up these conversations too.
It's it's really a great gift that you're able to
give to your community.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
Thanks for listen. Follow us on Instagram at the most
dramatic pod ever, and make sure to write us a
review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you
next time.
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Zima
Chris Harrison
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