September 8, 2025 • 25 mins
It’s said that truth is stranger than fiction and this documentary will make you a believer. Amy and T.J. discuss the jaw dropping Netflix movie about an unthinkable crime. SPOILER ALERT about 10 minutes in, if you haven’t watched it, please do so before listening because we are holding nothing back!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, folks, it is the evening of Monday, September eighth,
as we record this, and what the actual hell? We
just watched the number one trending show on Netflix. It's
called Unknown Number the High School Catfish. Our mouths dropped
(00:22):
open for pretty much the entire hour and a half
of this documentary, and Roeboch has been absolutely chomping at
the bit to get everything off her chest and off
her mind and spirit about what we just saw. And
I told her, wait, don't do it until we hit record. Well, folks,
(00:46):
we just hit record, and now welcome to this episode
of Amy and TJ. First reaction, before we even explain
anything about this documentary, you tell me how you feel.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Appalled, disgusted, shocked, and just in disbelief. I'm in disbelief
of what I saw.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Disbelief is a good one. Can't believe what we saw,
and now I'm looking I have softened. Shock and disbelief
was first. I have a difficult time getting to anger
just yet. And so let's get into all of that. Folks.
If you don't know what this thing is about, we
(01:28):
want to give you a heads up. We're not going
to give a spoiler, and if we do. We're going
to give your heads up. We're not going to give
a spoiler before what the next five minutes, I should say,
as we set it up, but we're gonna have to
talk about the reveal and what this story is. It's
out there and it's public. We just in case you
haven't seen it and wanted to, we at least want
to give your heads up before we tell you about
(01:50):
what went down. Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I would say, we couldn't do a proper podcast without
discussing what the twist is or what the true This
isn't even a script, that's the thing. It's not a
movie script. This is real life. It's always been said
truth is stranger than fiction. This documentary is proof. If
you ever didn't believe it, this documentary is proof. And
so we're gonna have to give the spoiler. So if
(02:12):
you haven't seen it, I would say, put us on pause,
go watch the Netflix documentary, and then come back and
see if you want to join in on this, because
I guarantee you you're gonna have feelings.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yes, And as you listen along here, we promise we
will give you a heads up before we give the
thing or anything away. But just to set it up
here robes is, I mean the teas and the trailer
and what this is set up as a group of
friends begin getting harassed from an unknown number and it
is relentless. And so this goes along and follows the
(02:45):
story investigation what happens to these kids until the ultimate
reveal of what happens.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, and I have to give Netflix so many kudos
because they really did an artful job in telling a story.
So you actually are you're actually alone long for the
horror of it. Where it builds, you start to see
the initial texts and then there's a little bit of
a lull and then they come back. And when they
(03:10):
come back, they're relentless. They're ferocious, they're unending. Sometimes there's
fifty texts a day of just hardcore bullying that actually
crescendos into telling the victims, the recipients of these texts
to go kill themselves. Like it gets that graphic and
that disturbing.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
You reminded me. I'm still not quite sure the ages
they were what grade at.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
The time, ninth grade, So we're talking fourteen thirteen, fourteen
years old.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, And this is in Bill City, Michigan, and this
happened twenty two.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, within the last few years.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, this is so Yeah, this is all very current.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
The kids are still in high school.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yes, there you go. The kids are still in high school.
And they did talk to all the kids, but it
revolved around Owen and Lauren, these two youngins who were
kind of sweet on each other and started dating, and
then Owen started getting these messages from an unknown number.
Essentially Owen and Lauren started getting these messages essentially trying
to break them up. Now it's hard, and I meant
to write some down, it's hard to give an accurate
(04:10):
description of what and just how horrible these messages were.
You put it in context that it's coming to a
thirteen year old, it's hard to understand the things that
were being said to these children.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
They were very sexually graphic. Yes, for even someone who
is in their twenties, it was sexually graphic. These are kids. Yes,
I've felt that I was like, WHOA and these kids?
If I had been their age, I wouldn't have even
known some of what the texts were, what they were
referring to, that's how sexually graphic they were. But it
all was this kind of obsession with Owen, and then
(04:47):
because he was with his girlfriend from seventh grade, Lauren,
then all of the anger and vitriol and just unbelievably,
just horrible, horrible things were being said to Lauren, like
calling her a skank, and because she was thin, like
making fun of her flat ass, and her just her
(05:09):
unwillingness to be sexual with her boyfriend, just all the
things that girls are vulnerable and embarrassed about at that
age in ninth grade, when you're becoming a woman, and
to have someone texting you telling you you're not sexy
and you don't have the body, and you and you're
a skank, and you dress provocatively but you won't give
it up, and just all the things that already girls
(05:31):
are insecure about. To have somebody just zeroing and honing
in on that is just awful.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Again, thirteen year old, all of these kids are, and
several of them started getting these messages from unknown numbers.
To your point about Lauren, this is probably one of
the saddest things is that this unknown number had no
idea who it was, where was coming from, actually had
an impact on how she felt about herself, and she
started changing the way.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
She dressed and how she felt about herself. She talked
about having thoughts of suicide. Owen talked about having thoughts oficide.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Power of words in messages coming through a cell phone,
it's it's horrific to see what happened. So the kids
then start doing their own investigation trying to figure it out.
The police get involved, parents get involved, everybody gets involved,
so everybody's trying to track it down. They can't track
down who it is necessarily so easily, because they're using
(06:23):
some kind of technology that allows it to look like
it's coming from a different cell phone or different phone
numbers every single time. So it's not that simple until
they finally get what was the FBI involved and they
do proper research going.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Correct, But before is it, Before the FBI got involved,
the person who was sending these messages was clever enough
to start sending people out on wild goose chases, so
creating texts that made it seem as though another student
was the bully or another student was the bully, So
then other students were getting involved because they were being accused,
(06:56):
and then their lives were unraveling because then they looked
like they were the culprit and it wasn't true, and yes,
once the FBI got involved, they were able to track
down IP numbers basically IP addresses. Excuse me, and.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Let's jump on that. But I wanted to your point.
I didn't make this point enough about what you just said.
How Yes, this caused friendships to break down forever, this
caused marriages to end, Families were split, all because somebody
(07:32):
unknown number sending negative, nasty, constant bullying via.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Tech constant like fifty texts a day, constantly your full
time job.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yes, so, yes, this is where we are to pick
up on what you're saying. Now, the FBI gets involved
and they start trying to track down IP addresses and
what phone numbers are.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Attached for mere so the people who the victims who
were receiving all of these unwanted and horrific tax Owen
actually gave his phone. This is kind of what broke
the case wide open. Gave his phone to the FBI,
who then did a full extraction, is that what they
called it. And they were able to look at all
(08:11):
of the texts that came in, and there were plenty
to look at, and they were able to cross reference
even though they were using this app or whatever that
created different numbers. There was still an underlying number attached
to two different IP addresses, and when you find out
what was it, about two thirds maybe three quarters of
(08:32):
the way through the documentary you find out the number
that is finally cross referenced, because they went through all
the students and all the potential found because the information
that by the way, this harassmer, this bully was using,
was referencing things that were said, even a picture that
only someone who was intimate in a friend group or
(08:55):
in a family unit could possibly have known. So they
knew that was what was so creepy about it. It
wasn't like some stranger from Afar. It was somebody who
intimately knew these characters. So they were cross referencing numbers,
you know.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And they made a very good point. I'm not sure
where you would have come down on this. As a parent,
I said, that is really smart. When they were telling them, hey,
just get your kids' numbers cut off, get new phones,
new numbers, and all of this will go away. And
the parents said, no, we actually want to figure this out.
We want to figure out who this is because clearly
it's somebody in our circle.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
This person is in our homes this person is being
invited to those family gatherings. This person is a part
of our inner circle, and how could we ever trust
our inner circle again if we don't know who this is.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
So they and they build us up Robes very dramatically.
And this is where now, folks will tell you if
you haven't seen and you want to wait for the
big reveal, this is where the spoiler is going to
come in. So we'll let you know. We are about
to go ahead and discuss. I guess really the more
the meat and the reveal of this, but Robes it
was as we were watching said the first third two
(10:02):
thirds of it, we of course we had guesses about
who it's going to be, and it's probably going to
be that, and we said early on it's probably an adult.
So yway, some of the things they said, you know what,
that's probably got to be the shocker part of this.
This was the biggest possible shocker of anybody that could
have been the culprit.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yes, because the poor girl Lauren who was being berated
and being called every name in the book, including telling
Lauren to go kill herself. And I'm really like not
even giving the worst of the quotes, those texts were
coming from her own mother. So Lauren's mother, Kendra, ultimately
(10:48):
was the person who was behind the texts. These graphic, horrific,
sexual bullying, and frankly threatening texts all were coming from
her own mother. And then the question becomes why why.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
So as you say it and you sit here anyone
listening if you want, you struggle to come up with
the why. And so again, a very good part of
the documentary is that Netflix got the bodycam footage of
when the officer went in there and they had to
confront her in her home and had to bring her
daughter in as well to see all this breakdown. You see,
(11:31):
I'm not sure what comes over her when she knew
the gig was up. She immediately confessed and there wasn't
much of an emotional reaction, babe.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
That was what freaked me out. The moment she actually
had no she had zero emotion, and it the little
bit you might have seen was so minuscule. It would
be like telling me that a distant second cousin had
passed like. There was almost no emotion that crossed over
(11:59):
her face when she realized that she was caught, and
her biggest thing was, I don't want Lauren to know.
Is everyone going to know? That was what she cared about,
and the officer was like, pretty sure, there's no way
to avoid that, and she kind of was like okay,
literally knowing what she had been doing for a year
(12:21):
and a half, two years almost at that point, just
harassing two young kids to the point where they both
considered suicide, and she had zero emotion when she got
caught as a mom, as a wife, and there were
more lies her whole She had a whole other web
of lies that she was selling her husband in addition
(12:42):
to selling this all to her daughter to be the
comforter in chief, to be that mom who was there
for her daughter who was being bullied, because she was
going to be the comforter when she was the actual
one who was inflicting the pain. This is a.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Look, this is a shocking story. And it's easy to mock.
It's easy to it's easy to beate, it's easy to
attack this woman and scratch your heads. Certainly from a parent.
I know a lot of you listening now, if you've
watched it already, you have the same question, why why why?
It makes no sense? Why? Okay? If she was sweet
(13:20):
on the boy, fine, send a couple of things, try
to break them up. Why are you constantly harassing your
daughter to the point she is wanting to consider suicide
and keeping that up for months and months and months. Well, folks,
(13:41):
stay here, because next we are going to tell you
what the mom says her logic is for doing, and
you decide whether or not you buy it or not
that this woman desperately needs help.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Welcome back to Amy and TG where we are talking
about Unknown Number, the High School Catfish. It is the
number one movie on Netflix. We just finished watching it
and we are still reeling. You are actually listening, as
I know you all know, to two horror movie fanatics.
We love thrillers, We love horror movies. We love plot twist,
(14:26):
we love a good script with great writing. I have
to say, this documentary, this thing that actually happened in
a small town in Michigan, had me reeling in a
way that very few horror movies can even accomplish. Where
I I we usually can figure out who probably the
killer might be, and it's not that shock. This just
(14:50):
shook me. I was shocked.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
You know you you bring up the horror movie thing
and let me see you made me think of it
just now. There's some horror movies at the end that
you get the twist and you go, that's so stupid,
that doesn't make sense, that would never actually happened. That
was the twist at the end of this, like, of
course it's not the mom. That's dumb.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Actually, Babe. When they started, I thought they were breadcrumbing
us and there was gonna be some other twist when
it seemed as though all of the evidence pointed to
Lauren's mom, Kendra, and you and I looked at each other.
We said, there's more like, there's no way it's her,
Like they're just they're just they're making us think it's Kendra,
but it's not actually Kendra. That's much. We didn't believe
(15:32):
it when they started setting it up, and then it
wasn't until Kendra herself fully admits it and we thought,
oh my god, this actually is what happened.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Like, I challenge you to watch this without like literally
your jaw dropping, literally your jaw will drop in watching
and like you said, Rob, this is something you cannot
make up. This is a true story of what happened.
Now the mom, of course, she's a part of the documentary.
Now that's another brilliant part of this, and that the
first again, third to two thirds and where they're explaining
(16:05):
and setting up the story Kendra, we don't know she's
the actual culprit. They have her as a part of
the documentary, just as a concerned parent.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
So you really think that she's a part of the solution, yes,
or at least trying to find a solution for her daughter.
And she seems like that carrying, doting mom who wants
to figure out who's doing this to her poor child.
And so that also creates just this total bombshell of
a moment when you realize that Kendra actually is the
(16:36):
person behind all of the hate. And look, when we're
looking for the why, because that's of course the next
thing you think, how could a mom do this? But
why would a mom do this? And yes, okay, fine,
she might have been obsessed with Owen, she might have
had some weird fantasy about him, but that still doesn't
explain how cruel she was to her daughter. She still
(16:57):
could have done something to break them up. And once
she broke them up, it didn't end. She just kept
on with her daughter in such a cruel fashion. And
when we heard from the investigators, the detectives and their theory.
All of a sudden, a light bulb went off, Munchausen, where, Look,
(17:18):
I'm only familiar with this as some people are. I
did the Gypsy Rose case back in the day, where
you have a mom who tries to make her daughter
or her child sick so that she then gets sympathy,
but they're actually causing their child to be physically unwell
by either poisoning them slowly or whatever. But it's all
about getting attention and being the caregiver in chief, basically,
(17:40):
where you're needed and you're wanted and you're getting attention.
So the theory is that perhaps Kendra did this so
that she then could be there for her daughter and
forged this beautiful bond in connection at a time when
we know our teenage daughters kind of drift off and
they have boyfriends and friends, and they go to high
school and suddenly mom isn't as important. So if she's
(18:01):
being bullied, who's she going to run to? Her mom?
So how crazy is it that Kendra would be bullying
her daughter only to be able to be the one
to comfort her when she came home.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Okay, Munchausen syndrome. That's she didn't mention it. I think
other she mention, and others did mention that as a possibility.
What she mentioned essentially is that she was ill, she
didn't know how much help she needed, she hadn't dealt
with trauma from her past. She does at some point
(18:34):
talk about she had been raped at the age of seventeen,
and some of that trauma she has not and had
not dealt with. She talked about the possibility that she
was seeing herself and some of the negativity she was
saying that she was too herself was too thin, she
had own issues with her own bodies. So some of
the messages she was sending to her daughter were almost
maybe even talking to herself. Do you I don't understand
(18:58):
as in no way. I didn't study the trauma and
what makes people behave in certain ways. But she explained
things about herself that I think. Maybe we talk to
a therapist they would say, Okay, I can see this,
I can see this, and I can see this. I
think this woman is complicated and I think she went
(19:18):
through something, But I just don't think you a normal
person does this. And I don't want to dismiss her
as just evil or a hateful woman. I don't know
what to label her ass I don't know what category
to put her in, but I'm trying to understand because
what she has done is so far. The messages again,
(19:42):
I don't think we're doing a good service, Robes, because
the message is so bad.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I actually am uncomfortable saying the messages out. Yes, and
I think anyone who's listening to this at this point
has watched it, so they know what we're talking. We
don't even need to repeat them. But here's my I
appreciate what you just said, and I am as well,
trying to not be as judgmental as I want to
(20:09):
be because that was my reaction as a mom and
as a human, because I believe she must have I
got I hope in the sense in terms of a defense,
that she did go through something that created this version
of her. But I see a mom who wants to
be center of attention. I see a mom who is narcissistic.
(20:32):
I see a mom who doesn't care who she hurts
to get the attention or feed the desires she has.
And if anything, to project your pain and your trauma
onto your daughter, I don't think it's a natural thing.
I think we try to avoid it. We all mess
up our kids to some degree without realizing it. But
this was so intentional, This was so hurtful. This was
(20:52):
not done in a moment of passion or fury or frustration.
But this was done repeatedly, persistently, methodically, and to me,
that is what makes it so evil. And then to
justify it by saying, well, I had my own trauma.
It's I think she found aha moment where there is
some truth to that, and then tries to use that
(21:15):
to justify all of her atrocious behavior and to point
out the level of manipulation this poor girl, Lauren, and
you see her on the documentary. I think one of
the most heartbreaking things about it for me was to
hear Lauren talk about how she loves her mom so
much and wants to have a relationship with her. She's
desperate for her mom's love. There was some sort of
(21:35):
dynamic created over the years where there was this neediness
that Lauren needed Kendra, and Kendra needed Lauren to need her,
and when she saw Lauren slip away, she created a
bigger need for her. And somehow it's so sad Lauren
cannot break free from it.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
No kin, that's I'm sure that's the way a lot
of people see it, and I'm not there. I think
there is something. As I watch, there was something very
loving about that mother and taking care of that child.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
She loved how it made her feel to have Lauren
love her again.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I'm not going to put that on that woman from
that child's birth to she sent that first nasty message
is that that woman was never genuinely in love with
that child and a mother to that child. Now, I
also will acknowledge that there is something possibly that happened
to this woman that messed her up, sure mesked her
(22:28):
up real bad. And she kept she referred to and
she said, I spiraled and this all got out of control,
and I believe and she said it was an escape
from real life, is what she used. I am. We
all are looking for an answer because none of us
can understand. You see the messages and you go, how
could anybody send this to somebody? Then you hear that
a mother sent it to her thirteen year old child. Way,
(22:51):
I feel sick, no way to understand that. The one
thing where I am a little I pause on any
of this. For whatever reason, she didn't come across that
sincerely scary and sympathetically in the way she was talking
and giving some of these answers, it was bizarre how
(23:12):
she was coming.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
She was removed emotionally.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
And you know what, then that probably speaks to something
in her as well. I this is an awful, awful,
awful start.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I think, what's scary about it? Look, obviously, this, thank God,
is not in any way, shape or form anything we've
ever heard of before. But just to recognize, oh my goodness,
that people are capable of this is I think the
scariest thing of all to me. This documentary was way
more frightening than any horror movie I have ever watched.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
But it also reminded, I mean, take out the dynamic
at the end, at least the reveal, but also showed
you just how just how much of an impact words
can have. Text messages from somebody they didn't know, ended relationships,
inded friendships, ended marriages, inded families, people lost homes, all
(24:06):
these things over text messages. That was a scary part
of it, as well as far as the entertainment about
Netflix and all of that. The documentary was just really
really weren't done well. It really done well. But man,
you all check it out and have whatever conversation you
need to have with your kids, with your loved ones.
But man, and be mindful of folks. I don't know
why I'm I'm usually that guy, but I'm trying to
(24:29):
listen and understand before I just completely condemn what I find.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
To be just indefensible, indefensible. What you did, it is indefensible,
But I do like your takeaway and I think it's
a good way to end that we all should always
remember to be mindful of the power of our words.
Let's use them for good. So thank you for listening
to us tonight. I made Robock alongside TJ. Hilmes. Have
a good night, everybody.
Hey, folks, it is the evening of Monday, September eighth,
as we record this, and what the actual hell? We
just watched the number one trending show on Netflix. It's
called Unknown Number the High School Catfish. Our mouths dropped
(00:22):
open for pretty much the entire hour and a half
of this documentary, and Roeboch has been absolutely chomping at
the bit to get everything off her chest and off
her mind and spirit about what we just saw. And
I told her, wait, don't do it until we hit record. Well, folks,
(00:46):
we just hit record, and now welcome to this episode
of Amy and TJ. First reaction, before we even explain
anything about this documentary, you tell me how you feel.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Appalled, disgusted, shocked, and just in disbelief. I'm in disbelief
of what I saw.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Disbelief is a good one. Can't believe what we saw,
and now I'm looking I have softened. Shock and disbelief
was first. I have a difficult time getting to anger
just yet. And so let's get into all of that. Folks.
If you don't know what this thing is about, we
(01:28):
want to give you a heads up. We're not going
to give a spoiler, and if we do. We're going
to give your heads up. We're not going to give
a spoiler before what the next five minutes, I should say,
as we set it up, but we're gonna have to
talk about the reveal and what this story is. It's
out there and it's public. We just in case you
haven't seen it and wanted to, we at least want
to give your heads up before we tell you about
(01:50):
what went down. Is that fair?
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I would say, we couldn't do a proper podcast without
discussing what the twist is or what the true This
isn't even a script, that's the thing. It's not a
movie script. This is real life. It's always been said
truth is stranger than fiction. This documentary is proof. If
you ever didn't believe it, this documentary is proof. And
so we're gonna have to give the spoiler. So if
(02:12):
you haven't seen it, I would say, put us on pause,
go watch the Netflix documentary, and then come back and
see if you want to join in on this, because
I guarantee you you're gonna have feelings.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yes, And as you listen along here, we promise we
will give you a heads up before we give the
thing or anything away. But just to set it up
here robes is, I mean the teas and the trailer
and what this is set up as a group of
friends begin getting harassed from an unknown number and it
is relentless. And so this goes along and follows the
(02:45):
story investigation what happens to these kids until the ultimate
reveal of what happens.
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah, and I have to give Netflix so many kudos
because they really did an artful job in telling a story.
So you actually are you're actually alone long for the
horror of it. Where it builds, you start to see
the initial texts and then there's a little bit of
a lull and then they come back. And when they
(03:10):
come back, they're relentless. They're ferocious, they're unending. Sometimes there's
fifty texts a day of just hardcore bullying that actually
crescendos into telling the victims, the recipients of these texts
to go kill themselves. Like it gets that graphic and
that disturbing.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
You reminded me. I'm still not quite sure the ages
they were what grade at.
Speaker 2 (03:34):
The time, ninth grade, So we're talking fourteen thirteen, fourteen
years old.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
Okay, And this is in Bill City, Michigan, and this
happened twenty two.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Yeah, within the last few years.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Yeah, this is so Yeah, this is all very current.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
The kids are still in high school.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yes, there you go. The kids are still in high school.
And they did talk to all the kids, but it
revolved around Owen and Lauren, these two youngins who were
kind of sweet on each other and started dating, and
then Owen started getting these messages from an unknown number.
Essentially Owen and Lauren started getting these messages essentially trying
to break them up. Now it's hard, and I meant
to write some down, it's hard to give an accurate
(04:10):
description of what and just how horrible these messages were.
You put it in context that it's coming to a
thirteen year old, it's hard to understand the things that
were being said to these children.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
They were very sexually graphic. Yes, for even someone who
is in their twenties, it was sexually graphic. These are kids. Yes,
I've felt that I was like, WHOA and these kids?
If I had been their age, I wouldn't have even
known some of what the texts were, what they were
referring to, that's how sexually graphic they were. But it
all was this kind of obsession with Owen, and then
(04:47):
because he was with his girlfriend from seventh grade, Lauren,
then all of the anger and vitriol and just unbelievably,
just horrible, horrible things were being said to Lauren, like
calling her a skank, and because she was thin, like
making fun of her flat ass, and her just her
(05:09):
unwillingness to be sexual with her boyfriend, just all the
things that girls are vulnerable and embarrassed about at that
age in ninth grade, when you're becoming a woman, and
to have someone texting you telling you you're not sexy
and you don't have the body, and you and you're
a skank, and you dress provocatively but you won't give
it up, and just all the things that already girls
(05:31):
are insecure about. To have somebody just zeroing and honing
in on that is just awful.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
Again, thirteen year old, all of these kids are, and
several of them started getting these messages from unknown numbers.
To your point about Lauren, this is probably one of
the saddest things is that this unknown number had no
idea who it was, where was coming from, actually had
an impact on how she felt about herself, and she
started changing the way.
Speaker 2 (05:55):
She dressed and how she felt about herself. She talked
about having thoughts of suicide. Owen talked about having thoughts oficide.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
Power of words in messages coming through a cell phone,
it's it's horrific to see what happened. So the kids
then start doing their own investigation trying to figure it out.
The police get involved, parents get involved, everybody gets involved,
so everybody's trying to track it down. They can't track
down who it is necessarily so easily, because they're using
(06:23):
some kind of technology that allows it to look like
it's coming from a different cell phone or different phone
numbers every single time. So it's not that simple until
they finally get what was the FBI involved and they
do proper research going.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Correct, But before is it, Before the FBI got involved,
the person who was sending these messages was clever enough
to start sending people out on wild goose chases, so
creating texts that made it seem as though another student
was the bully or another student was the bully, So
then other students were getting involved because they were being accused,
(06:56):
and then their lives were unraveling because then they looked
like they were the culprit and it wasn't true, and yes,
once the FBI got involved, they were able to track
down IP numbers basically IP addresses. Excuse me, and.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Let's jump on that. But I wanted to your point.
I didn't make this point enough about what you just said.
How Yes, this caused friendships to break down forever, this
caused marriages to end, Families were split, all because somebody
(07:32):
unknown number sending negative, nasty, constant bullying via.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Tech constant like fifty texts a day, constantly your full
time job.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
Yes, so, yes, this is where we are to pick
up on what you're saying. Now, the FBI gets involved
and they start trying to track down IP addresses and
what phone numbers are.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Attached for mere so the people who the victims who
were receiving all of these unwanted and horrific tax Owen
actually gave his phone. This is kind of what broke
the case wide open. Gave his phone to the FBI,
who then did a full extraction, is that what they
called it. And they were able to look at all
(08:11):
of the texts that came in, and there were plenty
to look at, and they were able to cross reference
even though they were using this app or whatever that
created different numbers. There was still an underlying number attached
to two different IP addresses, and when you find out
what was it, about two thirds maybe three quarters of
(08:32):
the way through the documentary you find out the number
that is finally cross referenced, because they went through all
the students and all the potential found because the information
that by the way, this harassmer, this bully was using,
was referencing things that were said, even a picture that
only someone who was intimate in a friend group or
(08:55):
in a family unit could possibly have known. So they
knew that was what was so creepy about it. It
wasn't like some stranger from Afar. It was somebody who
intimately knew these characters. So they were cross referencing numbers,
you know.
Speaker 1 (09:09):
And they made a very good point. I'm not sure
where you would have come down on this. As a parent,
I said, that is really smart. When they were telling them, hey,
just get your kids' numbers cut off, get new phones,
new numbers, and all of this will go away. And
the parents said, no, we actually want to figure this out.
We want to figure out who this is because clearly
it's somebody in our circle.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
This person is in our homes this person is being
invited to those family gatherings. This person is a part
of our inner circle, and how could we ever trust
our inner circle again if we don't know who this is.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
So they and they build us up Robes very dramatically.
And this is where now, folks will tell you if
you haven't seen and you want to wait for the
big reveal, this is where the spoiler is going to
come in. So we'll let you know. We are about
to go ahead and discuss. I guess really the more
the meat and the reveal of this, but Robes it
was as we were watching said the first third two
(10:02):
thirds of it, we of course we had guesses about
who it's going to be, and it's probably going to
be that, and we said early on it's probably an adult.
So yway, some of the things they said, you know what,
that's probably got to be the shocker part of this.
This was the biggest possible shocker of anybody that could
have been the culprit.
Speaker 2 (10:21):
Yes, because the poor girl Lauren who was being berated
and being called every name in the book, including telling
Lauren to go kill herself. And I'm really like not
even giving the worst of the quotes, those texts were
coming from her own mother. So Lauren's mother, Kendra, ultimately
(10:48):
was the person who was behind the texts. These graphic, horrific,
sexual bullying, and frankly threatening texts all were coming from
her own mother. And then the question becomes why why.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
So as you say it and you sit here anyone
listening if you want, you struggle to come up with
the why. And so again, a very good part of
the documentary is that Netflix got the bodycam footage of
when the officer went in there and they had to
confront her in her home and had to bring her
daughter in as well to see all this breakdown. You see,
(11:31):
I'm not sure what comes over her when she knew
the gig was up. She immediately confessed and there wasn't
much of an emotional reaction, babe.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
That was what freaked me out. The moment she actually
had no she had zero emotion, and it the little
bit you might have seen was so minuscule. It would
be like telling me that a distant second cousin had
passed like. There was almost no emotion that crossed over
(11:59):
her face when she realized that she was caught, and
her biggest thing was, I don't want Lauren to know.
Is everyone going to know? That was what she cared about,
and the officer was like, pretty sure, there's no way
to avoid that, and she kind of was like okay,
literally knowing what she had been doing for a year
(12:21):
and a half, two years almost at that point, just
harassing two young kids to the point where they both
considered suicide, and she had zero emotion when she got
caught as a mom, as a wife, and there were
more lies her whole She had a whole other web
of lies that she was selling her husband in addition
(12:42):
to selling this all to her daughter to be the
comforter in chief, to be that mom who was there
for her daughter who was being bullied, because she was
going to be the comforter when she was the actual
one who was inflicting the pain. This is a.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Look, this is a shocking story. And it's easy to mock.
It's easy to it's easy to beate, it's easy to
attack this woman and scratch your heads. Certainly from a parent.
I know a lot of you listening now, if you've
watched it already, you have the same question, why why why?
It makes no sense? Why? Okay? If she was sweet
(13:20):
on the boy, fine, send a couple of things, try
to break them up. Why are you constantly harassing your
daughter to the point she is wanting to consider suicide
and keeping that up for months and months and months. Well, folks,
(13:41):
stay here, because next we are going to tell you
what the mom says her logic is for doing, and
you decide whether or not you buy it or not
that this woman desperately needs help.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
Welcome back to Amy and TG where we are talking
about Unknown Number, the High School Catfish. It is the
number one movie on Netflix. We just finished watching it
and we are still reeling. You are actually listening, as
I know you all know, to two horror movie fanatics.
We love thrillers, We love horror movies. We love plot twist,
(14:26):
we love a good script with great writing. I have
to say, this documentary, this thing that actually happened in
a small town in Michigan, had me reeling in a
way that very few horror movies can even accomplish. Where
I I we usually can figure out who probably the
killer might be, and it's not that shock. This just
(14:50):
shook me. I was shocked.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
You know you you bring up the horror movie thing
and let me see you made me think of it
just now. There's some horror movies at the end that
you get the twist and you go, that's so stupid,
that doesn't make sense, that would never actually happened. That
was the twist at the end of this, like, of
course it's not the mom. That's dumb.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Actually, Babe. When they started, I thought they were breadcrumbing
us and there was gonna be some other twist when
it seemed as though all of the evidence pointed to
Lauren's mom, Kendra, and you and I looked at each other.
We said, there's more like, there's no way it's her,
Like they're just they're just they're making us think it's Kendra,
but it's not actually Kendra. That's much. We didn't believe
(15:32):
it when they started setting it up, and then it
wasn't until Kendra herself fully admits it and we thought,
oh my god, this actually is what happened.
Speaker 1 (15:42):
Like, I challenge you to watch this without like literally
your jaw dropping, literally your jaw will drop in watching
and like you said, Rob, this is something you cannot
make up. This is a true story of what happened.
Now the mom, of course, she's a part of the documentary.
Now that's another brilliant part of this, and that the
first again, third to two thirds and where they're explaining
(16:05):
and setting up the story Kendra, we don't know she's
the actual culprit. They have her as a part of
the documentary, just as a concerned parent.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
So you really think that she's a part of the solution, yes,
or at least trying to find a solution for her daughter.
And she seems like that carrying, doting mom who wants
to figure out who's doing this to her poor child.
And so that also creates just this total bombshell of
a moment when you realize that Kendra actually is the
(16:36):
person behind all of the hate. And look, when we're
looking for the why, because that's of course the next
thing you think, how could a mom do this? But
why would a mom do this? And yes, okay, fine,
she might have been obsessed with Owen, she might have
had some weird fantasy about him, but that still doesn't
explain how cruel she was to her daughter. She still
(16:57):
could have done something to break them up. And once
she broke them up, it didn't end. She just kept
on with her daughter in such a cruel fashion. And
when we heard from the investigators, the detectives and their theory.
All of a sudden, a light bulb went off, Munchausen, where, Look,
(17:18):
I'm only familiar with this as some people are. I
did the Gypsy Rose case back in the day, where
you have a mom who tries to make her daughter
or her child sick so that she then gets sympathy,
but they're actually causing their child to be physically unwell
by either poisoning them slowly or whatever. But it's all
about getting attention and being the caregiver in chief, basically,
(17:40):
where you're needed and you're wanted and you're getting attention.
So the theory is that perhaps Kendra did this so
that she then could be there for her daughter and
forged this beautiful bond in connection at a time when
we know our teenage daughters kind of drift off and
they have boyfriends and friends, and they go to high
school and suddenly mom isn't as important. So if she's
(18:01):
being bullied, who's she going to run to? Her mom?
So how crazy is it that Kendra would be bullying
her daughter only to be able to be the one
to comfort her when she came home.
Speaker 1 (18:13):
Okay, Munchausen syndrome. That's she didn't mention it. I think
other she mention, and others did mention that as a possibility.
What she mentioned essentially is that she was ill, she
didn't know how much help she needed, she hadn't dealt
with trauma from her past. She does at some point
(18:34):
talk about she had been raped at the age of seventeen,
and some of that trauma she has not and had
not dealt with. She talked about the possibility that she
was seeing herself and some of the negativity she was
saying that she was too herself was too thin, she
had own issues with her own bodies. So some of
the messages she was sending to her daughter were almost
maybe even talking to herself. Do you I don't understand
(18:58):
as in no way. I didn't study the trauma and
what makes people behave in certain ways. But she explained
things about herself that I think. Maybe we talk to
a therapist they would say, Okay, I can see this,
I can see this, and I can see this. I
think this woman is complicated and I think she went
(19:18):
through something, But I just don't think you a normal
person does this. And I don't want to dismiss her
as just evil or a hateful woman. I don't know
what to label her ass I don't know what category
to put her in, but I'm trying to understand because
what she has done is so far. The messages again,
(19:42):
I don't think we're doing a good service, Robes, because
the message is so bad.
Speaker 2 (19:47):
I actually am uncomfortable saying the messages out. Yes, and
I think anyone who's listening to this at this point
has watched it, so they know what we're talking. We
don't even need to repeat them. But here's my I
appreciate what you just said, and I am as well,
trying to not be as judgmental as I want to
(20:09):
be because that was my reaction as a mom and
as a human, because I believe she must have I
got I hope in the sense in terms of a defense,
that she did go through something that created this version
of her. But I see a mom who wants to
be center of attention. I see a mom who is narcissistic.
(20:32):
I see a mom who doesn't care who she hurts
to get the attention or feed the desires she has.
And if anything, to project your pain and your trauma
onto your daughter, I don't think it's a natural thing.
I think we try to avoid it. We all mess
up our kids to some degree without realizing it. But
this was so intentional, This was so hurtful. This was
(20:52):
not done in a moment of passion or fury or frustration.
But this was done repeatedly, persistently, methodically, and to me,
that is what makes it so evil. And then to
justify it by saying, well, I had my own trauma.
It's I think she found aha moment where there is
some truth to that, and then tries to use that
(21:15):
to justify all of her atrocious behavior and to point
out the level of manipulation this poor girl, Lauren, and
you see her on the documentary. I think one of
the most heartbreaking things about it for me was to
hear Lauren talk about how she loves her mom so
much and wants to have a relationship with her. She's
desperate for her mom's love. There was some sort of
(21:35):
dynamic created over the years where there was this neediness
that Lauren needed Kendra, and Kendra needed Lauren to need her,
and when she saw Lauren slip away, she created a
bigger need for her. And somehow it's so sad Lauren
cannot break free from it.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
No kin, that's I'm sure that's the way a lot
of people see it, and I'm not there. I think
there is something. As I watch, there was something very
loving about that mother and taking care of that child.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
She loved how it made her feel to have Lauren
love her again.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
I'm not going to put that on that woman from
that child's birth to she sent that first nasty message
is that that woman was never genuinely in love with
that child and a mother to that child. Now, I
also will acknowledge that there is something possibly that happened
to this woman that messed her up, sure mesked her
(22:28):
up real bad. And she kept she referred to and
she said, I spiraled and this all got out of control,
and I believe and she said it was an escape
from real life, is what she used. I am. We
all are looking for an answer because none of us
can understand. You see the messages and you go, how
could anybody send this to somebody? Then you hear that
a mother sent it to her thirteen year old child. Way,
(22:51):
I feel sick, no way to understand that. The one
thing where I am a little I pause on any
of this. For whatever reason, she didn't come across that
sincerely scary and sympathetically in the way she was talking
and giving some of these answers, it was bizarre how
(23:12):
she was coming.
Speaker 2 (23:13):
She was removed emotionally.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
And you know what, then that probably speaks to something
in her as well. I this is an awful, awful,
awful start.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
I think, what's scary about it? Look, obviously, this, thank God,
is not in any way, shape or form anything we've
ever heard of before. But just to recognize, oh my goodness,
that people are capable of this is I think the
scariest thing of all to me. This documentary was way
more frightening than any horror movie I have ever watched.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
But it also reminded, I mean, take out the dynamic
at the end, at least the reveal, but also showed
you just how just how much of an impact words
can have. Text messages from somebody they didn't know, ended relationships,
inded friendships, ended marriages, inded families, people lost homes, all
(24:06):
these things over text messages. That was a scary part
of it, as well as far as the entertainment about
Netflix and all of that. The documentary was just really
really weren't done well. It really done well. But man,
you all check it out and have whatever conversation you
need to have with your kids, with your loved ones.
But man, and be mindful of folks. I don't know
why I'm I'm usually that guy, but I'm trying to
(24:29):
listen and understand before I just completely condemn what I find.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
To be just indefensible, indefensible. What you did, it is indefensible,
But I do like your takeaway and I think it's
a good way to end that we all should always
remember to be mindful of the power of our words.
Let's use them for good. So thank you for listening
to us tonight. I made Robock alongside TJ. Hilmes. Have
a good night, everybody.
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Zima
Chris Harrison
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