August 9, 2023 • 41 mins
You’ve seen the headlines…
“He is about to be homeless because of the show”
“He has applied for 400 jobs”
“He felt like a prisoner on Love is Blind”…
It is time to get the real story. Nick Thompson from Love is Blind joins Chris to address the headlines and reveal all.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
This is the most traumatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Hey everybody, Chris Harrison coming to you today with a
very interesting show. I have heard these stories about Nick Thompson.
He was a contestant on season two of Love Is Blind.
Seemingly he had a really good journey. To use an
(00:23):
old catchphrase of mind, the show went well. He met
this woman, Danielle, they fell in love, they got married.
But then it all changed and these articles started coming
out about some interviews he had given that he and Danielle,
the woman he married and fell in love with on
(00:44):
the show, they got divorced. That's true, but his life
has been turned upside down. He has since lost his job,
He has allegedly is on the verge of becoming homeless
because of all this, and there is this kind of
war of words of okay, is he mentally healthy? Was
(01:06):
it the show's fault? Is it production's fault? What is
going on with this story? And to me, the reason
it sparks my interest is something's not connecting. I've read
these stories and if you watch the show and you
read these articles, it doesn't make sense to me. And
so I'm a big believer of instead of reading clickbait
(01:29):
headlines and going through life like that. Let's go to
the guy himself. Let's go to the source and let's
talk to Nick Thompson and find out what is true,
what is fact, and what is fiction. And that's what
we're going to do today. We're going to get to
the bottom of this. A very captivating, compelling interview with
Nick Thompson. And joining me now is Nick Thompson.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Nick.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
First of all, thanks for the time.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Oh, thank you. I'm happy to be here. It's nice
to have an opportunity to meet you and talk to you.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I really wanted to reach out to you and get
you on the podcast because I found your story. I
was really captivated. I read a couple of articles and
I couldn't quite connect the dots because it seemed that
I was missing something in this story. And I said, well,
there's got to be more to this. Because the guy
we all saw in love is blind. You weren't a villain,
(02:21):
you weren't cast or portrayed as this bad guy. So
I'm like, there's some sort of disconnects. So I'm like, Okay,
what's going on with Nick Thompson? And so I'm like,
let's just go to the source.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That's a great place to go because I'm sure, as
you know and I've probably experienced, the media isn't always telling.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
The full story.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Ye come on, you know it's mind blowing, and hey,
then to past a clickbaity headline is way too much
to ask for a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Ye I've dealt with That's okay. I've dealt with more
than two or three of those.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah, you know what, I think. I know you have too,
I've seen them.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I have.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I think it's funny because you see like attention span shortening,
but then you see things like podcasts and long form
conversations sort of growing in popularity. So it's like a
weird disconnect for me. So we could have this nice
conversation here and you know, get the whole story, but
people also don't want to click past a headline. It's
such a unique dynamic.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
You're right. I mean, as the TikTok world or Instagram
whatever reels world has captivated us, I think more and
more of us have also railed against it, whether it's
the you know, I think Joe Rogan kind of broke
that mold of like, no, I'm just going to go
do my own show. And I know when I went
through what I went through, I wish I had followed
that kind of Rogan Chappelle model where I'm like, I'm
just going to go tell my own story in long form,
(03:42):
like you said, where there's no there's no headline, there's
no clickbait. It is amazing to me the things that
get put up in a headline and that are okay,
and then if you actually read the story and you
get to the fourth paragraph, you realize there's no meat
to this. So it is it's just one more thing
you have to battle in this world. But you know,
so be.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
It's it's so true.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
And I heard you talking about that on your show
that dropped yesterday actually where you guys were talking about
Caitlin and Jason, and yeah, you know, just one thing
you said, by the way, I just really stuck with me,
was you were you said that I don't leave the
comment if it's not contributing good to the world or
something along those lines. And I just want to say, like,
we're all human beings, and the amount of people who
(04:26):
read a headline about me last week and have decided
that they were going to use that as an opportunity
to be cruel, which you know, those things don't bother me,
but you know, it's just like look in the mirror
a little bit and read past the headline and try
and understand what's actually going on, because we're all human beings.
Like you're a human being, I'm a human being. We
all just have some of our stuff public.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, And you know, when I was going through the
Bachelor and Bacherette world, it was this new adventure for me,
but it's this. It was the same profession and so
I had this assent in this business for thirty years.
I had been a sportscaster. I cut my teeth in
local news and was a journalist. Then you know, people
saw the top five percent when I became the host
(05:08):
of The Bachelor. I've been doing this a long time,
so it was nothing new for me to hear people
chirping from you know, the back row. But when you
are Nick Thompson, when you are Caitlin Bristow or Jason
Tartick and you just come on this show, it's hard.
And I try to prepare people, but it's hard for
people to understand when you are essentially shot out of
(05:29):
a cannon. You know, and people will say, oh, Nick,
you signed up for this. Well, yes, but you also
probably didn't quite understand until you got into it exactly
what you signed up for. Is that accurate?
Speaker 3 (05:41):
That's one hundred percent accurate. And you know, for you know,
one of the examples I share with love is blind,
is I signed up. For example, I knew I was
giving away my phone and my connection to the internet,
my connection to family and friends for three weeks if
I made it, you know, into the engagement portion. And
what I didn't know is that I wouldn't be able
(06:02):
to like leave a hotel room, or I wouldn't be
able to get food or water at my discretion. So
there's things like that that people you know, and they
look and I wonder what it is. It's probably a
little jealousy, probably a little projection, but it is like
even if you think, Okay, I'm not going to be
able to eat and drink water, you know, at my discretion,
do you know how your body's going to react to that?
(06:23):
Do you know how your mind's going to react to that?
Do you know how the imbalances and your hormones, Like,
there's just so many things that you can't put in
a contract or put on paper.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
One of the things I find interesting and I always
found this the study of human behavior fascinating when I
was hosting the show for so many decades. And I
know Love is Blind is no different, as all these
shows are somewhat similar in their approach. What I find
fascinating is when you take away Nick's defense mechanisms, the
(06:54):
things that you rely on every day. We all have
things that we do, whether you know it or not
or pay attention to. Maybe you call your brother, maybe
you call your mom, Maybe you go work out and
you hit a punching bag, maybe whatever your spin class.
The things that we do that relieve that stress and tension,
so we don't have to just live in our feelings
in emotion all the time. So on one level, it
(07:14):
is very healthy because you have to deal with yourself.
You can't go on your phone, you can't get relief
from this. But at the same time, it's a tough
place to be if you're not used to that and
you're not prepared for it.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
That's so well said. I couldn't agree more. And that's
one thing when people I talk to, some people who
are thinking about a show or have been cast in
a show, and you know, they ask, well, what's it like?
What do I need to prepare for? Is this something
I should do? And I don't ever tell people what
to do, but I share my experience. And one of
the things I say is is similar to you. It's
you're in your everyday life and then you're you're taking
(07:50):
Like me, I take a walk every morning. That is
very important to me to clear my head, get you know,
my my chemicals balanced, my certificating clock super important to me.
That was taken away from me. I intermittent fast. My
schedule for eating used to be between like noon and seven,
and here it was just like all over the place.
(08:10):
And that you know, that impects your gut, it impects
your body, it impects your mind. And then the working out,
like there wasn't a lot of opportunity to work out,
and that's something I do five six times a week.
So it is that that whole, that whole process, and
that whole entire sort of template you put around your
life or structure you put around your life that is
just completely stripped away. So even those tiny little things
(08:32):
that happen in a day that help keep you clear
or or help make you feel better.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Those are just.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Golf and you know, and by no means do I
mean to attack the you know, Love is Blind producers.
I don't know them and I wasn't on the set.
And in their defense, just because I know the other side,
they're also just doing their job. They're like, we just
need Nick ready to go at eight o'clock, nine o'clock whatever,
and oh, we're behind schedules, so they're not even thinking about, oh,
(08:57):
I know Nick needs to get up and like get
his exercise to be healthy and to do now. You know,
it's like they're just You're an employee essentially at that time.
So my I guess my question is when you came
into it, what were you expecting? And then how did
it turn out that was so great, that made such
an impact in your.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Life, So that it's so interesting because I didn't know
what to expect. I actually didn't really watch much reality TV.
I watched Nick Vile season ironically from the Bachelor, and
that's probably the only non competition reality show that I watched.
And I only watched that too, just because we were
doing one of those tournament brackets at work.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's like, well, I want to be a part of that.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
So so you know, I didn't have a lot of experience,
and you know, they actually reached out to me through LinkedIn,
where you know, that was where I had most of
my social media presence other than my Instagram dog photos.
But but you know when they when they came to me,
I was kind of like, I was really uneducated about
the industry. I was really uneducated about the process. So
(10:02):
what did I do? I went and watched Love Is
Blind season one, and I was like, oh, like, this
is different. This isn't you know about people you know,
as my dad would say, people hooking up in hot
tubs when he heard I was on the show, It's
what he thought it was. So it was, you know,
it was like very genuine and had this authenticity to it,
and the people that were on and had this authenticity
to them and this realness of them that I didn't necessarily,
(10:25):
you know, right or wrong, I didn't necessarily think of
reality shows in that way. So first and foremost like
just going on the set, like I had no idea
that we would be filming or working for eighteen hours
a day, twenty hours a day, again without any structure
of your normal life, without you know, the access to
the things that you want to eat and you want
(10:47):
to drink. And so that part to me was pretty shocking,
and I actually had a physical reaction. I got a
migrain on day three just from I think the chaos
of all of it. I didn't drink that much on
the show because I was not going to be making
drunk decisions about who I married. So it was it
was really it was really just sort of like overwhelming
(11:10):
and all consuming with that. And then to your point earlier,
when you do get a few minutes of or a
few hours back at your hotel room, like you are,
you were just sitting in your emotions. I write a lot,
and I was writing in my journal every opportunity I got,
because it was just trying to make sense of it all.
Dating fifteen people. They you know, it's like for seven
(11:32):
minutes at a time, it's just it's so much and
all consuming, and you just don't anticipate that.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
And so what I found interesting is if you watch
the show, if you're just a fan, you watched it,
you're thinking, oh man, this guy really cruised through this.
It was a really good experience for him. He actually
found love. I mean, it was successful. So's that to
me is maybe the disconnect for a lot of people
when they're seeing some of these headlines of like this
guy crushed it. Like you know, say you were on
(11:59):
the Bachelor and you were quote unquote the villain and
you got the bad at it, so to speak. But
that wasn't you. So I guess explained to us, where
is that disconnect where this was not a good experience
for you although it looks to us like it was. So.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
One of the things that I realized so last year
was I don't even think I've said that last year
was the worst year of my life. Like I by
the end of the year, I was like, I don't
want anything to do with any of this anymore. I
wish I would give anything to go back to my
life before Love is Blind. And as I started reflecting,
you know, I started asking my qu why why why?
(12:36):
And you know, I came to this whole concept in
my mind that while I went through this, I was
justifying everything that wasn't going well because I found love,
or I justified the fact that I lost fifteen pounds
in the first three weeks because I wasn't eating or
drinking water or the fact that I got such a
(12:58):
bad migraine that I had to like leave set and
was vomiting, and like it just like you pushed that
aside because okay, you did it now saying I crushed it.
Like I never really thought of it as a competition,
which I think is the way people look at it, right,
And people even say that, they're like, oh, man, you
killed it, you won. I'm like, yeah, well, I didn't
think of it that way. But you know, for me,
(13:18):
it was it was really like, how am I going
to go into this and be myself no matter what,
not end up in situations in which I wouldn't be
in real life or in conversations I wouldn't be in
real life. And that was sort of my my you know,
foundation to this. And I was completely fine if I
go and I go home the first day because I
(13:39):
don't connect with anyone, Cool what an experience, right, Or
if I get married on it, I'm like, cool, that
must have been meant to be. And so you know, yeah,
it went great right from that perspective, And once you
see on TV and you know, I didn't do anything
or say anything out of character, so you know, I
don't have that and I feel and I've spoken to
people who have been edited into a villain and it
(14:00):
does it like completely uproots and ruins their entire life.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
First of all, I'm very sorry to hear that when
someone says that last year was like the worst year
of my life, I'm sorry to hear that when you
look back, what was the impetus for that? Like, obviously,
and I know you'd be like just being on love
is blind, but what what you know? Go deeper, like,
what was it that made this such an impactful moment
(14:39):
in your life, that sparkplug moment in such a bad way,
in such a negative way? What was that? Like? Where
did it turn for you?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I guess, yeah, so it was The show comes out
in February of last year, right, so you've got, you know,
the high of.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Of that, you're doing press, you're probably being because you're
one of the stars, so you're being flown around and
doing doing the.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Dance exactly exactly, and then you know, I got to
do some things that I never dreamed I would have
the opportunity to do, and so you know, that's all good,
But what was going on behind the scenes was my
marriage was falling apart and we were struggling because we
were a very polarizing couple for the show, and so
we were struggling with, you know, our marriage struggles. We
(15:21):
were struggling with now this is in the public eye,
We're struggling with all the hate. And you know, I
didn't get nearly what Danielle got. Danielle got so much hate.
There were days where she would be so sad and
so depressed, she wouldn't want to leave the house, she
wouldn't want to leave the couch, and so, you know,
we were dealing with with so much stuff behind what
you see on Love is Blind that it just sort
(15:42):
of snowballed, and then, you know, we we ended up
getting divorced. She filed for divorce in August, and that
was just when things just went insane because I hadn't
told my family. I wasn't I kind of still thought
we were going to figure things out. I hadn't told
my family. I hadn't I told maybe my best couple
(16:03):
of friends that we were in dire straits. And then
TMZ leaked this article and that's how my mom found
out Lovely for example, Lovely Yeah. Yeah, So it's like,
so that's when it just started like snowballing for me.
And then there was, you know, the divide obviously of
people of there's going to be team Nick and Danielle
even though there shouldn't be, right, but that's how they
(16:25):
do it. And then you know, they were I opted
to never talk about it and and really avoid most
interviews on it because you know, it hurts, it was painful.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It's a real divorce, it's you were it's a real lore.
You were really in love, you were really married.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That's absolutely true. I don't think people think that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Well, and it's also you know, it's that's why, you know,
interesting and ironic that you're coming on right after this
Jason Tartik and Caitlin Bristow split because I know them
both very well. I know them intimately, they're they're friends
of mine, and so yes they were on the show,
and yes, you know, Nick and Danielle were on the show.
But I try to tell people these are humans who
were really married. They really did love each other. And
(17:07):
another aspect that's really hard for people to understand is
when you're going through and I've been through a divorce,
it sucks. Just in general, divorce sucks. It's not fun.
Breakups are never because things are going great. So you
get divorced, but then the tabloid of it all, in
the social media of it all, Danielle's getting things said
about her and to her. Nick is getting things said
(17:30):
to you about you about her, and so it almost
creates these two camps and you start to doubt things
that you know even it starts, you start to question
things you actually were sure about.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
If that makes it's like you get gas lid. Yeah,
it totally does. And I just remember there was, you know,
and this is where things again, they kept snowballing for months.
I had a friend who I've been friends with for
over a decade who's lives in the UK. She's from
the UK. She spent some time in Chicago. That's when
we met ten years ago. She came to visit from
the UK to see her family here and we went
out to brunch. And this was maybe two a week
(18:07):
or two after the divorce announcement, and we went we
went out to brunch. We sat on a patio, not
even just the two of us, with three two or
three of my friends were there, and someone saw us
and started this entire reddit thread about how clearly I
cheated and this was howhy the marriage ended. And so
all of a sudden that like later that day, I
(18:27):
started getting all these dms. You cheated, You're a cheater,
You're you're ruined this, you're you have a My friend
started getting hate. They track they somehow tracked her down
from my social media like five years ago when I
was in England visiting, and somehow made that didn't make
the connection that we've been friends for a long time,
but that instead she was a home wrecker. So she
started getting all of us hate, and it was just
(18:48):
I'm just like, my poor friend who who I haven't
seen in five years, is here and now now unfortunately
part of this and getting harassed and so like that
was part of the snowball. And then you know, I
ended up up losing my job after getting you know,
pretty much eviscerated in the media for things that I
did not say and things that I did not do, And.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So that that happened. That was that was probably the
worst day.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So you come out of this and you're you're in marketing,
you're very successful and you have this great job. So
you got fired and did they say it is because
of the press, and we just can't go further with
you because of what's going on.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
So they were they laid off I think roughly twenty
five percent of the workforce. And of course they're not
going to say that's why at the moment, but I
did have conversations later with people that said, while that
wasn't the only reason, it was part of the reason.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
And why is that because I was had and I
had just been promoted a month earlier two so I
was the VP of product marketing and sales enablement. And
what that means is I am owning analyst relationships right
with Gartner and Forrester and the biggest analysts in the world.
I am going on sales podcasts, I am going on
(20:07):
press interviews, I am working with the PR agency, and
I am writing blogs and I am talking to customers.
And so, when you have a role that's customer facing,
commercial facing, public facing, when people google you or they
google your company and you come up when there's that
mix of here's Nick talking about sales enablement software and
(20:29):
then you know, here's Nick saying you know, blah blah
blah happened, or someone saying that Nick cheated or whatever,
it might be right, it's just a it's a brutal thing,
and it's a public facing role, so that stuff all matters.
That stuff impacts me. I even't had my contract for
Love is Blind amended to say that I could still
do those work related public speaking and interview. Yeah, because
(20:50):
that's such a big part of my role.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
And so this story, and again, this is why I
wanted to just come to the source, this story that
you are close to being homeless because of this? Is
that accurate?
Speaker 3 (21:04):
So here, yes, here's yes, it is. So here's the city,
and what's your definition of homeless? Right, I'm about to
lose my house. I don't have another house to go
live in. I don't have another home like am I
thirty eight and to go live with my parents might
not have much of a choice, right. But so I
lost my job in November. I've applied to over four
hundred jobs. I've probably had twenty twenty five interviews. I've
(21:25):
had a few of them actually say what I just
said to you, like, we don't want to risk our
company on you know, potential headlines or past headlines or
up until I think last week, if you googled me,
the negative stuff was the first thing that showed up,
So it was it's not because those are obviously the
most clicked over time, so the algorithm is going to
feed those. So what I did immediately was, you know,
(21:48):
I had, like you said, been successful. I had saved
roughly four or five months in savings that I had mark,
which is what they tell you to do, so that
I and not everyone has that luxury to save. So
I'm you know, those are those who don't, you know, Yeah,
and I had that luxury and I had worked hard
for it, right vp at thirty five? Is I put
my whole life into my career. Yeah, And so I
(22:11):
went through my savings and I was like, okay, so
that was you know, and I took a few weeks
off and before I started applying, so that that was
you know, it's traumatizing to get divorced and then lose
your job in the course of two months.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
That's a lot. That's a lot, man, I had in republic.
The fact that you're standing in front of me smiling
says a lot about you and your strength. So kudos
to you on that.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Well, thank you, thank you. So then when I realized, okay,
the savings is plummeting obviously. You know, I live in
a two bedroom to bath condo in Chicago that I've
owned since twenty nineteen. Again, worked very hard, saved down payment,
the whole thing. So is it is it realistic for
me that I could lose my house?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:54):
I cashed out my four to oh one k, which
gave me you know, another four five months of stuff,
which you know, you get penalized on that.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, you don't want to draw that down. Yeah, you
pay the taxes and there goes what you thought you
were going to have when you were sixty five.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
That's exactly it. And so I cash that out to
keep paying my mortgage. I do consulting on the side,
but there's not a lot of investment in that right now.
In tech, which is my area of expertise. There's tech
is very tight right now. People are are you know,
cutting their budgets and obviously layoffs were well known in
the tech space, so you know, the consulting there, it's there,
(23:32):
but it isn't consistent. It's not something I can count on,
you know, much past you know, the week or two
it's scheduled for. So you know, I am doing that.
I still apply to jobs. I interview to jobs any
chance I get.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Crazy.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Thing is like you go, and you know, I'm a
director VP depending on the size of the company level.
You know, that's my career progression. That's where I'm at,
and that's something I don't think people take into consideration either.
But the challenge there is that by the time you plan,
I spend the first hour or two every day on
LinkedIn looking for the right types of jobs. It could
be posted an hour ago and there's three hundred plus
(24:08):
applicants already, so that you know, the market is just
oversaturated in tech right now. So that's also contributing to it.
But the funny thing about that article, and then I'll
shut up for a minute. The funny thing about that
article is that headline was one or two lines I
said in a thirty minute interview, and that's what took off.
(24:28):
Of course, I was talking about reality stars rights, reality
stars possibly unionizing residuals, which is where that came up.
Where I casually tongue in cheek, but you know, accurately,
I like to make fun of my bad situations to
keep that smile. But you know, I jokingly said, you know,
Netflix is making billions of dollars off of Netflix. Anyone
can go on Netflix and watch me at any given time,
(24:51):
and I'm going to be homeless.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I'm going to lose my house. That was the line.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Sadly, Sadly, I think actually Netflix is losing billions. That's
the problem, is cards. Yeah, so let's dive into that. Like,
(25:15):
I'm trying to think, how is this avoided? What could
have been done differently for you, either by production or
by yourself to have avoided this, or is it just
I mean, I hate to use the term a comedy
of airs, but it's kind of like these dominoes just
fell into place for you that sucked. You know, this
(25:36):
could have gone so many different ways that wouldn't have
led to this, and it's just ironic that you found
love and this is what it led to, which is
just bizarre.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well, hence the worst year of my life.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Right just like, and again, I don't mean to make
light of that, because I hate that. I mean, when
you hear that, it really it hits me in my heart.
I'm very sorry.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Well, thank you, you know, I'll be okay. I'll figure
it out. I always do. I'm pretty i will say,
like I've learned I'm very resilient. I'm way more resilient
than I ever thought I could be. And I think
that is, you know, that's something that thankfully took a
lot of therapy and a lot of personal growth to
do that. So it is it's like it's a lot
(26:15):
of bad dominoes, it's some bad luck, it's it's all
of it. But when you think about and and you know,
there's headlines that say I blame Netflix, like I never
said that, right, Like if I I never said, I said,
it's the entire situation that's contributing to what my situation is.
And people don't you know when you're when you're at
that level I was at my career like and facing
(26:37):
customers like, people don't The public doesn't take you as
seriously once you're on a reality show in general, And
in my case, they knew me for my relationship. They
didn't know me. They didn't know what I did professionally.
They don't know what my hobbies were outside of making
my own toothpaste. They you know, it's so it's like,
what do they You know? You have this whole life
(26:58):
that's separate from from the image or the brand that's portrayed,
but that image of that brand that's portrayed, that's what
the percess.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
You get boiled down to this and again you go
back to that Iceberg theory. If you get boiled down
to that top five percent that people see, and you're like,
there's so much more to me, my family, my life,
my beliefs, everything about me that's so true.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
And then you know, I think it's funny too, because
I mean people are just like, you're just mad you
couldn't be an influencer, Like do you know how how
many brand partnerships I said no to because it's in
align with like my ethics or my values or something
like that, And then you know people who think so
I started the u CAN Foundation, which is the Unscripted
Cast Advocacy Network ucnfoundation dot org for those of you listening.
(27:43):
That is an organization dedicated to helping reality cast members
get legal support and mental health support pre during, and
post show. Because that was my big takeaway is I
never got that. I asked for it, and I had
a therapist and God bless her, she still sees me
for free now because I don't have insurance, so you know,
(28:06):
I didn't get any support from the show when my
divorce leaked.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
And I find that interesting because just again, all I
can think about is the Bachelor. We have a therapist
on hand, We have somebody there, and we weren't as
great about it early on, but we still had somebody. Now,
especially if you ask, yeah, it's it's there. And so
so that wasn't there for you, It wasn't provided.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
No, and they claim that they do. That's the part,
and you know that's not just me, right, that's like
my therapist talked to the psychologist that did my psychos
at evaluation for the show, so you know, it's like
and they said, yes, we have two on set. And
so there's all of these promises and then you know
things like like Danielle had a panic attack. No therapist,
(28:54):
no psychologists, no mental health professional. We got a bunch
of producers, you know, so like that's while film. That's devastating.
And then when you come post show, you would think, like,
here's some like real training, but instead you get a
PowerPoint that's like if someone hasn't mean comment, delete it
and block them, right, come on.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Well, that's the thing is nobody, especially therapists or producers
or whatever, are prepared for the social media of it
all because and you don't know what's going to resonate.
I always found that interesting from our show. You never
know what's going to resonate. I talked to Colton a
few weeks ago about the fence jump. I mean, honestly,
when the fence jump happened, I mean I knew it
was kind of funny and it would be on the show.
(29:33):
I didn't think it would like be the thing that
whole season. So you just you never know what's going
to resonate. And again, you were divorced with Danielle, who
knew that would be such a thing, that would be
so explosive, and so it's hard to as a producer
or a contestant to see ahead of that.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Well, and the thing that really like sparked my desire
to work because I had my co founder, Jeremy had
been facilita or courting me to start this with him. Uh,
and I was like, no, I kind of want to
get out of this world. And it was when I
was going through the divorce. Publicly, it was the layoff.
It was everything just you know, in the public, just
(30:13):
getting smeared and defamed and all this stuff. Going on,
all while getting divorced, and all while looking for a job.
I never once heard from Netflix, I never once heard
from Kinetic, other than they both called me to let
me know that they weren't going to sue us for
getting a divorce because we were contractually bound to stainary.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Thanks guys, No, thank.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
You, thank you, thank you. Yeah, that could have talk
about a phone call. It could have been anything.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I just lost my job, my insurance, my wife, my house.
Thanks for not jumping on and suing me. And by
the way, if you do, here's a quarter that we're
going to like.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
What are you going to assume me for? I don't
have anything anymore.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I've given all my blood, man, I got nothing left exactly.
But it is that is one of the difficult things.
I guess that you look for that support And is
that the biggest because I'm trying to think, Okay, what
is our takeaway here? How do we relate this back?
Where do we go from here? How do we help people?
What would your suggestion be?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Well, the immediate thing for us to do, and you know,
there's organizing going on behind the scenes that I'm doing
that other people are doing, and I'm hoping that we
can all come together and stand united as unscripted cast.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, I hope to talk to about Thaty Frankel about this.
I know she's kind of a proponent of the unionization,
and I have my my misgivings about it just because
I see some holes in it. It's it's a very
difficult landscape to try and unionize and get together. I mean,
I understand the concept as a whole, but the actual
(31:50):
delivery of this and actually the implementation of this would
be very, very difficult.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
That's yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
And I've spoken with members of SAD organizing and the
Team Stars organizing, and we are all aware of the
fact that this is a beast to actually get done.
But it has to start somewhere, right, and there's other
level levers to pull, So, you know, is there going
to be legislation that maybe gets introduced in California or
(32:19):
something to say, hey, like these people are employees, or
you know what, there's different lever levers that kind of
can help improve this. But ultimately, like I you know,
people think I hate Reality TV or I don't. I
don't hate it. I think it's a fine source of entertainment.
I think it's great content. I just think we don't
need to produce it at the expense of people's mental,
(32:39):
physical wellness and you know, impact them in the way
where it can literally like ruin lives. It's literally ruined
people's lives. People have killed themselves coming off of reality shows.
Death by suicide. I mean, just awful, awful that anyone
is in that sort of space, or that anyone can
(32:59):
be edited into a villain just for entertainment.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
So so I just want to.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Produce reality TV ethically and morally with a you know,
human being core center. And I think that's what the
Foundation You Can't Foundation is is trying to push towards
and then the immediate need of just making sure you
understand your contracts, that you understand what's legally enforceable and
what's not, and that you can get mental health support before, during,
(33:24):
and after the show. Like that's what needs to happen
right now. So that's what the Foundation's trying to do.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Just because you know, I look at you and I'm
listening to you, it's like you're not an angry guy.
You're very well thought out. Like I didn't know what
I was going to get today, which is why I
wanted to talk to this. I always find it interesting,
and maybe it is because I was on the show
for so long. I love listening to people. I want
to hear from them and then I can make my
own decisions on And I see this person who's very
(33:50):
obviously you're very well educated, You're a very smart guy.
You got your together. So that's why the headlines and
the stuff the stories are not connecting with who this
human is I'm talking to right now now, and it
just makes me even more sorry that you're going through
what you've gone through and where do you go from here?
Like how do we fix and help you on a
(34:13):
personal level.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
First of all, thank you, Like I actually feel validated
and heard when you say that. So I do appreciate that,
because I you know, I read those headlines and I'm like,
what that I didn't say that, or that's out of context,
or and then that became the story instead of the
efforts to improve the industry. Right, So it's just it's
so inflammatory and and you know, initially I was upset
(34:37):
and I was kind of hurt by it, but you know,
I always go back to people don't know my story,
people don't know my situation. People can tell me to go,
you know, kick rocks or whatever they want to say.
That's much meaner than that. But you know, I don't.
I don't care, like I welcome their hatred to quote FDR,
because I know that I'm doing the right thing and
(34:58):
I'm trying to leave realc TV better than I found it. So,
you know, from that aspect, you know, supporting the foundation,
it's all volunteers. I don't know if people think we're
like funneling money to ourselves for some reason, but it's
everyone's volunteered. Nobody's been paid. You actually invested our own
money and time into it. So I think that that's
a big focus for me. So from a personal standpoint,
(35:20):
like I want to you know, organize us and get
us some some basic protections. And then for me professionally,
I am still looking for a job. I've got a
couple interviews that have lined up in the last couple
of weeks, partially because of this story.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
So all those people that.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Have reached out and and you know, shown me some
grace and then also you know, try to help like
that is so appreciated. The kindness from people is far
outweighs the negativity but you know, I'm still looking for
a job. I'm hopeful, I'm positive about it. I you know,
(35:58):
like I said, I got a couple of mon in
the bank to pay my mortgage. Like, I'm not looking
that far ahead, looking forward so that I can stay
focused on what needs to be happening that day.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Well, you sound like a grinder, you kind of. I
have the same mentality of like, I don't care if
i'm if I'm not doing this, I'll be doing something.
Like I know I will make it work. I always
have in my life as an adult, and I always will.
That's just you know, So I know you're going to
be fine, But fine isn't good enough when you had
such great success and I hope you will find that again.
(36:31):
And I'm sure you have to go into these interviews
and spend part of the time instead of just telling
people how great you are and all your attributes, explaining
away and defending yourself. That's a tough way to come
into a job interview.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
It totally is. And but I'm okay. I'm comfortable with
it because, like I said, I haven't said or done
anything that I feel is out of character. Yeah, And
so that you can sleep at night, right, And you
know that I believe, whether this is true or not,
that if you do the right thing and you stay
the course, like do work out, I do. I do
have to keep that mindset. But but yeah, that's you
(37:05):
know that that is it is tough. But I'm not
here to defend my defend myself to be I don't.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
There's nothing to depend I mean, there's nothing to fight. Yeah,
And that's that's what's crazy, exactly. And that's what's hard
for when I talk to people that are involved in
all the tabloid crap and all these headlines, what they
want is for you to say something and defend yourself.
Now they have another story, and then you have to
defend that, and now they have another story. And so
this is it's this kind of sick perpetual motion that
(37:33):
you have to fight, but you can't fight it. Like
there's no they they have the ultimate Yeah, they have
the ultimate edit. You know, you know, you're never going
to read a story like oh that was that was
well well done, that was well said. Thanks, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
You know what's funny is that Daily Mail story that
started this whole storm, Like the story itself is actually
really good.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
If you read the story, it's.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Like, oh, it's hitting all the points and then on
the bottom and then the bottom is the line, and
then the headline, and it's just like that got to
read people.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
What about your personal life? Are you dating again, seeing anybody?
Do you even have time to think about that?
Speaker 2 (38:09):
You know?
Speaker 3 (38:09):
I sometimes joke and say I don't really know where
the day or the time goes, or even what day
it is anymore.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Dating is not on my radar. It's not you know.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
It's like I said, I'm looking at the like today, tomorrow,
and there's no dating in sight for me.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
There's still a lot of healing right now.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
You don't have the bandwidth for that, I assume.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Right or really the will It's tough. It's tough.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
And do you and Danielle do y'all still talk at all?
Like have you'll have y'all found a common bond as
far as going through this together?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, we have.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
We actually reconnected after back in at the end of
April early May, I think it was early May. We
reconnected and talked for the first time in probably eight
nine months. Good and then she actually was a guest
on two episodes of my podcast where we kind of
talked through our whole situation from before the show, during
the show, after the show, what we had been doing
(39:04):
the last eight months, and then how we came together,
which was really, you know, really healing for both of us.
So I think we're united and in our experience and
united in trying to get some change in the industry
that's going to help people out.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
That's awesome, man, I think that is that's a good
thing to hear, just you know, misery loves company. But
but that's the wrong that's the wrong line here. But
that's that's what came to my mind. But it's true.
A united front is a good thing just to have
somebody who's going through this at the same time that
you can share these stories with, because it's there's very
few people in this world who will understand this and
(39:38):
truly get what you've gone through. I truly understand it,
and I have empathy, and I I I see this
guy in front of me who's who's been you know,
kicked in the gut. But I do know I can
already tell you're going to be You're gonna be fine eventually.
You're in the middle of it right now. But I
know you're coming out the other side, and if there's
anything I can do, reach out. I've really enjoyed our conversation.
(40:02):
I appreciate you taking the time, yeah, and explaining everything
the way you have. I think if anybody has a
problem with Nick, play this podcast, I might right come on.
This guy is brilliant, brilliant, strong, and obviously can persevere.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Well. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
I think I think it's so funny how polarizing I
get over so many different things over the course of
being in the limelight a little bit, and it's just
so funny to me the things people like you said.
You don't know what's going to take off and what's
what's not.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Well, Nick, I appreciate it, and I thank you, and
I'm sorry you've gone through what you have and it's
affected you this way. But I truly think you are
going to be bigger, better, stronger as you come out
of this, and I wish you all the best. I
truly do.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
I appreciate that, and I appreciate the conversation too, and
the honesty and openness has been really nice.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
All right, my friend, I appreciate it, and you take
I'll talk to you hopefully again down the road as
this thing progresses you too.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Thanks a lot for having me, Chris.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most
dramatic pod ever, and make sure to write us a
review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you
next time.
This is the most traumatic podcast ever and iHeartRadio podcast.
Hey everybody, Chris Harrison coming to you today with a
very interesting show. I have heard these stories about Nick Thompson.
He was a contestant on season two of Love Is Blind.
Seemingly he had a really good journey. To use an
(00:23):
old catchphrase of mind, the show went well. He met
this woman, Danielle, they fell in love, they got married.
But then it all changed and these articles started coming
out about some interviews he had given that he and Danielle,
the woman he married and fell in love with on
(00:44):
the show, they got divorced. That's true, but his life
has been turned upside down. He has since lost his job,
He has allegedly is on the verge of becoming homeless
because of all this, and there is this kind of
war of words of okay, is he mentally healthy? Was
(01:06):
it the show's fault? Is it production's fault? What is
going on with this story? And to me, the reason
it sparks my interest is something's not connecting. I've read
these stories and if you watch the show and you
read these articles, it doesn't make sense to me. And
so I'm a big believer of instead of reading clickbait
(01:29):
headlines and going through life like that. Let's go to
the guy himself. Let's go to the source and let's
talk to Nick Thompson and find out what is true,
what is fact, and what is fiction. And that's what
we're going to do today. We're going to get to
the bottom of this. A very captivating, compelling interview with
Nick Thompson. And joining me now is Nick Thompson.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Nick.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
First of all, thanks for the time.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Oh, thank you. I'm happy to be here. It's nice
to have an opportunity to meet you and talk to you.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
I really wanted to reach out to you and get
you on the podcast because I found your story. I
was really captivated. I read a couple of articles and
I couldn't quite connect the dots because it seemed that
I was missing something in this story. And I said, well,
there's got to be more to this. Because the guy
we all saw in love is blind. You weren't a villain,
(02:21):
you weren't cast or portrayed as this bad guy. So
I'm like, there's some sort of disconnects. So I'm like, Okay,
what's going on with Nick Thompson? And so I'm like,
let's just go to the source.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
That's a great place to go because I'm sure, as
you know and I've probably experienced, the media isn't always telling.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
The full story.
Speaker 3 (02:41):
Ye come on, you know it's mind blowing, and hey,
then to past a clickbaity headline is way too much
to ask for a lot of people.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Ye I've dealt with That's okay. I've dealt with more
than two or three of those.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah, you know what, I think. I know you have too,
I've seen them.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
I have.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
I think it's funny because you see like attention span shortening,
but then you see things like podcasts and long form
conversations sort of growing in popularity. So it's like a
weird disconnect for me. So we could have this nice
conversation here and you know, get the whole story, but
people also don't want to click past a headline. It's
such a unique dynamic.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
You're right. I mean, as the TikTok world or Instagram
whatever reels world has captivated us, I think more and
more of us have also railed against it, whether it's
the you know, I think Joe Rogan kind of broke
that mold of like, no, I'm just going to go
do my own show. And I know when I went
through what I went through, I wish I had followed
that kind of Rogan Chappelle model where I'm like, I'm
just going to go tell my own story in long form,
(03:42):
like you said, where there's no there's no headline, there's
no clickbait. It is amazing to me the things that
get put up in a headline and that are okay,
and then if you actually read the story and you
get to the fourth paragraph, you realize there's no meat
to this. So it is it's just one more thing
you have to battle in this world. But you know,
so be.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
It's it's so true.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
And I heard you talking about that on your show
that dropped yesterday actually where you guys were talking about
Caitlin and Jason, and yeah, you know, just one thing
you said, by the way, I just really stuck with me,
was you were you said that I don't leave the
comment if it's not contributing good to the world or
something along those lines. And I just want to say, like,
we're all human beings, and the amount of people who
(04:26):
read a headline about me last week and have decided
that they were going to use that as an opportunity
to be cruel, which you know, those things don't bother me,
but you know, it's just like look in the mirror
a little bit and read past the headline and try
and understand what's actually going on, because we're all human beings.
Like you're a human being, I'm a human being. We
all just have some of our stuff public.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, And you know, when I was going through the
Bachelor and Bacherette world, it was this new adventure for me,
but it's this. It was the same profession and so
I had this assent in this business for thirty years.
I had been a sportscaster. I cut my teeth in
local news and was a journalist. Then you know, people
saw the top five percent when I became the host
(05:08):
of The Bachelor. I've been doing this a long time,
so it was nothing new for me to hear people
chirping from you know, the back row. But when you
are Nick Thompson, when you are Caitlin Bristow or Jason
Tartick and you just come on this show, it's hard.
And I try to prepare people, but it's hard for
people to understand when you are essentially shot out of
(05:29):
a cannon. You know, and people will say, oh, Nick,
you signed up for this. Well, yes, but you also
probably didn't quite understand until you got into it exactly
what you signed up for. Is that accurate?
Speaker 3 (05:41):
That's one hundred percent accurate. And you know, for you know,
one of the examples I share with love is blind,
is I signed up. For example, I knew I was
giving away my phone and my connection to the internet,
my connection to family and friends for three weeks if
I made it, you know, into the engagement portion. And
what I didn't know is that I wouldn't be able
(06:02):
to like leave a hotel room, or I wouldn't be
able to get food or water at my discretion. So
there's things like that that people you know, and they
look and I wonder what it is. It's probably a
little jealousy, probably a little projection, but it is like
even if you think, Okay, I'm not going to be
able to eat and drink water, you know, at my discretion,
do you know how your body's going to react to that?
(06:23):
Do you know how your mind's going to react to that?
Do you know how the imbalances and your hormones, Like,
there's just so many things that you can't put in
a contract or put on paper.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
You know.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
One of the things I find interesting and I always
found this the study of human behavior fascinating when I
was hosting the show for so many decades. And I
know Love is Blind is no different, as all these
shows are somewhat similar in their approach. What I find
fascinating is when you take away Nick's defense mechanisms, the
(06:54):
things that you rely on every day. We all have
things that we do, whether you know it or not
or pay attention to. Maybe you call your brother, maybe
you call your mom, Maybe you go work out and
you hit a punching bag, maybe whatever your spin class.
The things that we do that relieve that stress and tension,
so we don't have to just live in our feelings
in emotion all the time. So on one level, it
(07:14):
is very healthy because you have to deal with yourself.
You can't go on your phone, you can't get relief
from this. But at the same time, it's a tough
place to be if you're not used to that and
you're not prepared for it.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
That's so well said. I couldn't agree more. And that's
one thing when people I talk to, some people who
are thinking about a show or have been cast in
a show, and you know, they ask, well, what's it like?
What do I need to prepare for? Is this something
I should do? And I don't ever tell people what
to do, but I share my experience. And one of
the things I say is is similar to you. It's
you're in your everyday life and then you're you're taking
(07:50):
Like me, I take a walk every morning. That is
very important to me to clear my head, get you know,
my my chemicals balanced, my certificating clock super important to me.
That was taken away from me. I intermittent fast. My
schedule for eating used to be between like noon and seven,
and here it was just like all over the place.
(08:10):
And that you know, that impects your gut, it impects
your body, it impects your mind. And then the working out,
like there wasn't a lot of opportunity to work out,
and that's something I do five six times a week.
So it is that that whole, that whole process, and
that whole entire sort of template you put around your
life or structure you put around your life that is
just completely stripped away. So even those tiny little things
(08:32):
that happen in a day that help keep you clear
or or help make you feel better.
Speaker 2 (08:36):
Those are just.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Golf and you know, and by no means do I
mean to attack the you know, Love is Blind producers.
I don't know them and I wasn't on the set.
And in their defense, just because I know the other side,
they're also just doing their job. They're like, we just
need Nick ready to go at eight o'clock, nine o'clock whatever,
and oh, we're behind schedules, so they're not even thinking about, oh,
(08:57):
I know Nick needs to get up and like get
his exercise to be healthy and to do now. You know,
it's like they're just You're an employee essentially at that time.
So my I guess my question is when you came
into it, what were you expecting? And then how did
it turn out that was so great, that made such
an impact in your.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
Life, So that it's so interesting because I didn't know
what to expect. I actually didn't really watch much reality TV.
I watched Nick Vile season ironically from the Bachelor, and
that's probably the only non competition reality show that I watched.
And I only watched that too, just because we were
doing one of those tournament brackets at work.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
It's like, well, I want to be a part of that.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
So so you know, I didn't have a lot of experience,
and you know, they actually reached out to me through LinkedIn,
where you know, that was where I had most of
my social media presence other than my Instagram dog photos.
But but you know when they when they came to me,
I was kind of like, I was really uneducated about
the industry. I was really uneducated about the process. So
(10:02):
what did I do? I went and watched Love Is
Blind season one, and I was like, oh, like, this
is different. This isn't you know about people you know,
as my dad would say, people hooking up in hot
tubs when he heard I was on the show, It's
what he thought it was. So it was, you know,
it was like very genuine and had this authenticity to it,
and the people that were on and had this authenticity
to them and this realness of them that I didn't necessarily,
(10:25):
you know, right or wrong, I didn't necessarily think of
reality shows in that way. So first and foremost like
just going on the set, like I had no idea
that we would be filming or working for eighteen hours
a day, twenty hours a day, again without any structure
of your normal life, without you know, the access to
the things that you want to eat and you want
(10:47):
to drink. And so that part to me was pretty shocking,
and I actually had a physical reaction. I got a
migrain on day three just from I think the chaos
of all of it. I didn't drink that much on
the show because I was not going to be making
drunk decisions about who I married. So it was it
was really it was really just sort of like overwhelming
(11:10):
and all consuming with that. And then to your point earlier,
when you do get a few minutes of or a
few hours back at your hotel room, like you are,
you were just sitting in your emotions. I write a lot,
and I was writing in my journal every opportunity I got,
because it was just trying to make sense of it all.
Dating fifteen people. They you know, it's like for seven
(11:32):
minutes at a time, it's just it's so much and
all consuming, and you just don't anticipate that.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
And so what I found interesting is if you watch
the show, if you're just a fan, you watched it,
you're thinking, oh man, this guy really cruised through this.
It was a really good experience for him. He actually
found love. I mean, it was successful. So's that to
me is maybe the disconnect for a lot of people
when they're seeing some of these headlines of like this
guy crushed it. Like you know, say you were on
(11:59):
the Bachelor and you were quote unquote the villain and
you got the bad at it, so to speak. But
that wasn't you. So I guess explained to us, where
is that disconnect where this was not a good experience
for you although it looks to us like it was. So.
Speaker 3 (12:14):
One of the things that I realized so last year
was I don't even think I've said that last year
was the worst year of my life. Like I by
the end of the year, I was like, I don't
want anything to do with any of this anymore. I
wish I would give anything to go back to my
life before Love is Blind. And as I started reflecting,
you know, I started asking my qu why why why?
(12:36):
And you know, I came to this whole concept in
my mind that while I went through this, I was
justifying everything that wasn't going well because I found love,
or I justified the fact that I lost fifteen pounds
in the first three weeks because I wasn't eating or
drinking water or the fact that I got such a
(12:58):
bad migraine that I had to like leave set and
was vomiting, and like it just like you pushed that
aside because okay, you did it now saying I crushed it.
Like I never really thought of it as a competition,
which I think is the way people look at it, right,
And people even say that, they're like, oh, man, you
killed it, you won. I'm like, yeah, well, I didn't
think of it that way. But you know, for me,
(13:18):
it was it was really like, how am I going
to go into this and be myself no matter what,
not end up in situations in which I wouldn't be
in real life or in conversations I wouldn't be in
real life. And that was sort of my my you know,
foundation to this. And I was completely fine if I
go and I go home the first day because I
(13:39):
don't connect with anyone, Cool what an experience, right, Or
if I get married on it, I'm like, cool, that
must have been meant to be. And so you know, yeah,
it went great right from that perspective, And once you
see on TV and you know, I didn't do anything
or say anything out of character, so you know, I
don't have that and I feel and I've spoken to
people who have been edited into a villain and it
(14:00):
does it like completely uproots and ruins their entire life.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
First of all, I'm very sorry to hear that when
someone says that last year was like the worst year
of my life, I'm sorry to hear that when you
look back, what was the impetus for that? Like, obviously,
and I know you'd be like just being on love
is blind, but what what you know? Go deeper, like,
what was it that made this such an impactful moment
(14:39):
in your life, that sparkplug moment in such a bad way,
in such a negative way? What was that? Like? Where
did it turn for you?
Speaker 3 (14:44):
I guess, yeah, so it was The show comes out
in February of last year, right, so you've got, you know,
the high of.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Of that, you're doing press, you're probably being because you're
one of the stars, so you're being flown around and
doing doing the.
Speaker 3 (14:59):
Dance exactly exactly, and then you know, I got to
do some things that I never dreamed I would have
the opportunity to do, and so you know, that's all good,
But what was going on behind the scenes was my
marriage was falling apart and we were struggling because we
were a very polarizing couple for the show, and so
we were struggling with, you know, our marriage struggles. We
(15:21):
were struggling with now this is in the public eye,
We're struggling with all the hate. And you know, I
didn't get nearly what Danielle got. Danielle got so much hate.
There were days where she would be so sad and
so depressed, she wouldn't want to leave the house, she
wouldn't want to leave the couch, and so, you know,
we were dealing with with so much stuff behind what
you see on Love is Blind that it just sort
(15:42):
of snowballed, and then, you know, we we ended up
getting divorced. She filed for divorce in August, and that
was just when things just went insane because I hadn't
told my family. I wasn't I kind of still thought
we were going to figure things out. I hadn't told
my family. I hadn't I told maybe my best couple
(16:03):
of friends that we were in dire straits. And then
TMZ leaked this article and that's how my mom found
out Lovely for example, Lovely Yeah. Yeah, So it's like,
so that's when it just started like snowballing for me.
And then there was, you know, the divide obviously of
people of there's going to be team Nick and Danielle
even though there shouldn't be, right, but that's how they
(16:25):
do it. And then you know, they were I opted
to never talk about it and and really avoid most
interviews on it because you know, it hurts, it was painful.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
It's a real divorce, it's you were it's a real lore.
You were really in love, you were really married.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That's absolutely true. I don't think people think that, yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Well, and it's also you know, it's that's why, you know,
interesting and ironic that you're coming on right after this
Jason Tartik and Caitlin Bristow split because I know them
both very well. I know them intimately, they're they're friends
of mine, and so yes they were on the show,
and yes, you know, Nick and Danielle were on the show.
But I try to tell people these are humans who
were really married. They really did love each other. And
(17:07):
another aspect that's really hard for people to understand is
when you're going through and I've been through a divorce,
it sucks. Just in general, divorce sucks. It's not fun.
Breakups are never because things are going great. So you
get divorced, but then the tabloid of it all, in
the social media of it all, Danielle's getting things said
about her and to her. Nick is getting things said
(17:30):
to you about you about her, and so it almost
creates these two camps and you start to doubt things
that you know even it starts, you start to question
things you actually were sure about.
Speaker 3 (17:43):
If that makes it's like you get gas lid. Yeah,
it totally does. And I just remember there was, you know,
and this is where things again, they kept snowballing for months.
I had a friend who I've been friends with for
over a decade who's lives in the UK. She's from
the UK. She spent some time in Chicago. That's when
we met ten years ago. She came to visit from
the UK to see her family here and we went
out to brunch. And this was maybe two a week
(18:07):
or two after the divorce announcement, and we went we
went out to brunch. We sat on a patio, not
even just the two of us, with three two or
three of my friends were there, and someone saw us
and started this entire reddit thread about how clearly I
cheated and this was howhy the marriage ended. And so
all of a sudden that like later that day, I
(18:27):
started getting all these dms. You cheated, You're a cheater,
You're you're ruined this, you're you have a My friend
started getting hate. They track they somehow tracked her down
from my social media like five years ago when I
was in England visiting, and somehow made that didn't make
the connection that we've been friends for a long time,
but that instead she was a home wrecker. So she
started getting all of us hate, and it was just
(18:48):
I'm just like, my poor friend who who I haven't
seen in five years, is here and now now unfortunately
part of this and getting harassed and so like that
was part of the snowball. And then you know, I
ended up up losing my job after getting you know,
pretty much eviscerated in the media for things that I
did not say and things that I did not do, And.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
So that that happened. That was that was probably the
worst day.
Speaker 1 (19:14):
So you come out of this and you're you're in marketing,
you're very successful and you have this great job. So
you got fired and did they say it is because
of the press, and we just can't go further with
you because of what's going on.
Speaker 3 (19:30):
So they were they laid off I think roughly twenty
five percent of the workforce. And of course they're not
going to say that's why at the moment, but I
did have conversations later with people that said, while that
wasn't the only reason, it was part of the reason.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:45):
And why is that because I was had and I
had just been promoted a month earlier two so I
was the VP of product marketing and sales enablement. And
what that means is I am owning analyst relationships right
with Gartner and Forrester and the biggest analysts in the world.
I am going on sales podcasts, I am going on
(20:07):
press interviews, I am working with the PR agency, and
I am writing blogs and I am talking to customers.
And so, when you have a role that's customer facing,
commercial facing, public facing, when people google you or they
google your company and you come up when there's that
mix of here's Nick talking about sales enablement software and
(20:29):
then you know, here's Nick saying you know, blah blah
blah happened, or someone saying that Nick cheated or whatever,
it might be right, it's just a it's a brutal thing,
and it's a public facing role, so that stuff all matters.
That stuff impacts me. I even't had my contract for
Love is Blind amended to say that I could still
do those work related public speaking and interview. Yeah, because
(20:50):
that's such a big part of my role.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
And so this story, and again, this is why I
wanted to just come to the source, this story that
you are close to being homeless because of this? Is
that accurate?
Speaker 3 (21:04):
So here, yes, here's yes, it is. So here's the city,
and what's your definition of homeless? Right, I'm about to
lose my house. I don't have another house to go
live in. I don't have another home like am I
thirty eight and to go live with my parents might
not have much of a choice, right. But so I
lost my job in November. I've applied to over four
hundred jobs. I've probably had twenty twenty five interviews. I've
(21:25):
had a few of them actually say what I just
said to you, like, we don't want to risk our
company on you know, potential headlines or past headlines or
up until I think last week, if you googled me,
the negative stuff was the first thing that showed up,
So it was it's not because those are obviously the
most clicked over time, so the algorithm is going to
feed those. So what I did immediately was, you know,
(21:48):
I had, like you said, been successful. I had saved
roughly four or five months in savings that I had mark,
which is what they tell you to do, so that
I and not everyone has that luxury to save. So
I'm you know, those are those who don't, you know, Yeah,
and I had that luxury and I had worked hard
for it, right vp at thirty five? Is I put
my whole life into my career. Yeah, And so I
(22:11):
went through my savings and I was like, okay, so
that was you know, and I took a few weeks
off and before I started applying, so that that was
you know, it's traumatizing to get divorced and then lose
your job in the course of two months.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
That's a lot. That's a lot, man, I had in republic.
The fact that you're standing in front of me smiling
says a lot about you and your strength. So kudos
to you on that.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Well, thank you, thank you. So then when I realized, okay,
the savings is plummeting obviously. You know, I live in
a two bedroom to bath condo in Chicago that I've
owned since twenty nineteen. Again, worked very hard, saved down payment,
the whole thing. So is it is it realistic for
me that I could lose my house?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (22:54):
I cashed out my four to oh one k, which
gave me you know, another four five months of stuff,
which you know, you get penalized on that.
Speaker 1 (23:03):
Yeah, you don't want to draw that down. Yeah, you
pay the taxes and there goes what you thought you
were going to have when you were sixty five.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
That's exactly it. And so I cash that out to
keep paying my mortgage. I do consulting on the side,
but there's not a lot of investment in that right now.
In tech, which is my area of expertise. There's tech
is very tight right now. People are are you know,
cutting their budgets and obviously layoffs were well known in
the tech space, so you know, the consulting there, it's there,
(23:32):
but it isn't consistent. It's not something I can count on,
you know, much past you know, the week or two
it's scheduled for. So you know, I am doing that.
I still apply to jobs. I interview to jobs any
chance I get.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
Crazy.
Speaker 3 (23:46):
Thing is like you go, and you know, I'm a
director VP depending on the size of the company level.
You know, that's my career progression. That's where I'm at,
and that's something I don't think people take into consideration either.
But the challenge there is that by the time you plan,
I spend the first hour or two every day on
LinkedIn looking for the right types of jobs. It could
be posted an hour ago and there's three hundred plus
(24:08):
applicants already, so that you know, the market is just
oversaturated in tech right now. So that's also contributing to it.
But the funny thing about that article, and then I'll
shut up for a minute. The funny thing about that
article is that headline was one or two lines I
said in a thirty minute interview, and that's what took off.
(24:28):
Of course, I was talking about reality stars rights, reality
stars possibly unionizing residuals, which is where that came up.
Where I casually tongue in cheek, but you know, accurately,
I like to make fun of my bad situations to
keep that smile. But you know, I jokingly said, you know,
Netflix is making billions of dollars off of Netflix. Anyone
can go on Netflix and watch me at any given time,
(24:51):
and I'm going to be homeless.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
I'm going to lose my house. That was the line.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
Sadly, Sadly, I think actually Netflix is losing billions. That's
the problem, is cards. Yeah, so let's dive into that. Like,
(25:15):
I'm trying to think, how is this avoided? What could
have been done differently for you, either by production or
by yourself to have avoided this, or is it just
I mean, I hate to use the term a comedy
of airs, but it's kind of like these dominoes just
fell into place for you that sucked. You know, this
(25:36):
could have gone so many different ways that wouldn't have
led to this, and it's just ironic that you found
love and this is what it led to, which is
just bizarre.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
Well, hence the worst year of my life.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Right just like, and again, I don't mean to make
light of that, because I hate that. I mean, when
you hear that, it really it hits me in my heart.
I'm very sorry.
Speaker 3 (25:55):
Well, thank you, you know, I'll be okay. I'll figure
it out. I always do. I'm pretty i will say,
like I've learned I'm very resilient. I'm way more resilient
than I ever thought I could be. And I think
that is, you know, that's something that thankfully took a
lot of therapy and a lot of personal growth to
do that. So it is it's like it's a lot
(26:15):
of bad dominoes, it's some bad luck, it's it's all
of it. But when you think about and and you know,
there's headlines that say I blame Netflix, like I never
said that, right, Like if I I never said, I said,
it's the entire situation that's contributing to what my situation is.
And people don't you know when you're when you're at
that level I was at my career like and facing
(26:37):
customers like, people don't The public doesn't take you as
seriously once you're on a reality show in general, And
in my case, they knew me for my relationship. They
didn't know me. They didn't know what I did professionally.
They don't know what my hobbies were outside of making
my own toothpaste. They you know, it's so it's like,
what do they You know? You have this whole life
(26:58):
that's separate from from the image or the brand that's portrayed,
but that image of that brand that's portrayed, that's what
the percess.
Speaker 1 (27:05):
You get boiled down to this and again you go
back to that Iceberg theory. If you get boiled down
to that top five percent that people see, and you're like,
there's so much more to me, my family, my life,
my beliefs, everything about me that's so true.
Speaker 3 (27:20):
And then you know, I think it's funny too, because
I mean people are just like, you're just mad you
couldn't be an influencer, Like do you know how how
many brand partnerships I said no to because it's in
align with like my ethics or my values or something
like that, And then you know people who think so
I started the u CAN Foundation, which is the Unscripted
Cast Advocacy Network ucnfoundation dot org for those of you listening.
(27:43):
That is an organization dedicated to helping reality cast members
get legal support and mental health support pre during, and
post show. Because that was my big takeaway is I
never got that. I asked for it, and I had
a therapist and God bless her, she still sees me
for free now because I don't have insurance, so you know,
(28:06):
I didn't get any support from the show when my
divorce leaked.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
And I find that interesting because just again, all I
can think about is the Bachelor. We have a therapist
on hand, We have somebody there, and we weren't as
great about it early on, but we still had somebody. Now,
especially if you ask, yeah, it's it's there. And so
so that wasn't there for you, It wasn't provided.
Speaker 3 (28:33):
No, and they claim that they do. That's the part,
and you know that's not just me, right, that's like
my therapist talked to the psychologist that did my psychos
at evaluation for the show, so you know, it's like
and they said, yes, we have two on set. And
so there's all of these promises and then you know
things like like Danielle had a panic attack. No therapist,
(28:54):
no psychologists, no mental health professional. We got a bunch
of producers, you know, so like that's while film. That's devastating.
And then when you come post show, you would think, like,
here's some like real training, but instead you get a
PowerPoint that's like if someone hasn't mean comment, delete it
and block them, right, come on.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Well, that's the thing is nobody, especially therapists or producers
or whatever, are prepared for the social media of it
all because and you don't know what's going to resonate.
I always found that interesting from our show. You never
know what's going to resonate. I talked to Colton a
few weeks ago about the fence jump. I mean, honestly,
when the fence jump happened, I mean I knew it
was kind of funny and it would be on the show.
(29:33):
I didn't think it would like be the thing that
whole season. So you just you never know what's going
to resonate. And again, you were divorced with Danielle, who
knew that would be such a thing, that would be
so explosive, and so it's hard to as a producer
or a contestant to see ahead of that.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Well, and the thing that really like sparked my desire
to work because I had my co founder, Jeremy had
been facilita or courting me to start this with him. Uh,
and I was like, no, I kind of want to
get out of this world. And it was when I
was going through the divorce. Publicly, it was the layoff.
It was everything just you know, in the public, just
(30:13):
getting smeared and defamed and all this stuff. Going on,
all while getting divorced, and all while looking for a job.
I never once heard from Netflix, I never once heard
from Kinetic, other than they both called me to let
me know that they weren't going to sue us for
getting a divorce because we were contractually bound to stainary.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Thanks guys, No, thank.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
You, thank you, thank you. Yeah, that could have talk
about a phone call. It could have been anything.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
I just lost my job, my insurance, my wife, my house.
Thanks for not jumping on and suing me. And by
the way, if you do, here's a quarter that we're
going to like.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
What are you going to assume me for? I don't
have anything anymore.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
I've given all my blood, man, I got nothing left exactly.
But it is that is one of the difficult things.
I guess that you look for that support And is
that the biggest because I'm trying to think, Okay, what
is our takeaway here? How do we relate this back?
Where do we go from here? How do we help people?
What would your suggestion be?
Speaker 3 (31:15):
Well, the immediate thing for us to do, and you know,
there's organizing going on behind the scenes that I'm doing
that other people are doing, and I'm hoping that we
can all come together and stand united as unscripted cast.
Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, I hope to talk to about Thaty Frankel about this.
I know she's kind of a proponent of the unionization,
and I have my my misgivings about it just because
I see some holes in it. It's it's a very
difficult landscape to try and unionize and get together. I mean,
I understand the concept as a whole, but the actual
(31:50):
delivery of this and actually the implementation of this would
be very, very difficult.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
That's yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:58):
And I've spoken with members of SAD organizing and the
Team Stars organizing, and we are all aware of the
fact that this is a beast to actually get done.
But it has to start somewhere, right, and there's other
level levers to pull, So, you know, is there going
to be legislation that maybe gets introduced in California or
(32:19):
something to say, hey, like these people are employees, or
you know what, there's different lever levers that kind of
can help improve this. But ultimately, like I you know,
people think I hate Reality TV or I don't. I
don't hate it. I think it's a fine source of entertainment.
I think it's great content. I just think we don't
need to produce it at the expense of people's mental,
(32:39):
physical wellness and you know, impact them in the way
where it can literally like ruin lives. It's literally ruined
people's lives. People have killed themselves coming off of reality shows.
Death by suicide. I mean, just awful, awful that anyone
is in that sort of space, or that anyone can
(32:59):
be edited into a villain just for entertainment.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
So so I just want to.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
Produce reality TV ethically and morally with a you know,
human being core center. And I think that's what the
Foundation You Can't Foundation is is trying to push towards
and then the immediate need of just making sure you
understand your contracts, that you understand what's legally enforceable and
what's not, and that you can get mental health support before, during,
(33:24):
and after the show. Like that's what needs to happen
right now. So that's what the Foundation's trying to do.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Just because you know, I look at you and I'm
listening to you, it's like you're not an angry guy.
You're very well thought out. Like I didn't know what
I was going to get today, which is why I
wanted to talk to this. I always find it interesting,
and maybe it is because I was on the show
for so long. I love listening to people. I want
to hear from them and then I can make my
own decisions on And I see this person who's very
(33:50):
obviously you're very well educated, You're a very smart guy.
You got your together. So that's why the headlines and
the stuff the stories are not connecting with who this
human is I'm talking to right now now, and it
just makes me even more sorry that you're going through
what you've gone through and where do you go from here?
Like how do we fix and help you on a
(34:13):
personal level.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
First of all, thank you, Like I actually feel validated
and heard when you say that. So I do appreciate that,
because I you know, I read those headlines and I'm like,
what that I didn't say that, or that's out of context,
or and then that became the story instead of the
efforts to improve the industry. Right, So it's just it's
so inflammatory and and you know, initially I was upset
(34:37):
and I was kind of hurt by it, but you know,
I always go back to people don't know my story,
people don't know my situation. People can tell me to go,
you know, kick rocks or whatever they want to say.
That's much meaner than that. But you know, I don't.
I don't care, like I welcome their hatred to quote FDR,
because I know that I'm doing the right thing and
(34:58):
I'm trying to leave realc TV better than I found it. So,
you know, from that aspect, you know, supporting the foundation,
it's all volunteers. I don't know if people think we're
like funneling money to ourselves for some reason, but it's
everyone's volunteered. Nobody's been paid. You actually invested our own
money and time into it. So I think that that's
a big focus for me. So from a personal standpoint,
(35:20):
like I want to you know, organize us and get
us some some basic protections. And then for me professionally,
I am still looking for a job. I've got a
couple interviews that have lined up in the last couple
of weeks, partially because of this story.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
So all those people that.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Have reached out and and you know, shown me some
grace and then also you know, try to help like
that is so appreciated. The kindness from people is far
outweighs the negativity but you know, I'm still looking for
a job. I'm hopeful, I'm positive about it. I you know,
(35:58):
like I said, I got a couple of mon in
the bank to pay my mortgage. Like, I'm not looking
that far ahead, looking forward so that I can stay
focused on what needs to be happening that day.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Well, you sound like a grinder, you kind of. I
have the same mentality of like, I don't care if
i'm if I'm not doing this, I'll be doing something.
Like I know I will make it work. I always
have in my life as an adult, and I always will.
That's just you know, So I know you're going to
be fine, But fine isn't good enough when you had
such great success and I hope you will find that again.
(36:31):
And I'm sure you have to go into these interviews
and spend part of the time instead of just telling
people how great you are and all your attributes, explaining
away and defending yourself. That's a tough way to come
into a job interview.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
It totally is. And but I'm okay. I'm comfortable with
it because, like I said, I haven't said or done
anything that I feel is out of character. Yeah, And
so that you can sleep at night, right, And you
know that I believe, whether this is true or not,
that if you do the right thing and you stay
the course, like do work out, I do. I do
have to keep that mindset. But but yeah, that's you
(37:05):
know that that is it is tough. But I'm not
here to defend my defend myself to be I don't.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
There's nothing to depend I mean, there's nothing to fight. Yeah,
And that's that's what's crazy, exactly. And that's what's hard
for when I talk to people that are involved in
all the tabloid crap and all these headlines, what they
want is for you to say something and defend yourself.
Now they have another story, and then you have to
defend that, and now they have another story. And so
this is it's this kind of sick perpetual motion that
(37:33):
you have to fight, but you can't fight it. Like
there's no they they have the ultimate Yeah, they have
the ultimate edit. You know, you know, you're never going
to read a story like oh that was that was
well well done, that was well said. Thanks, I appreciate it.
Speaker 3 (37:48):
You know what's funny is that Daily Mail story that
started this whole storm, Like the story itself is actually
really good.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
If you read the story, it's.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
Like, oh, it's hitting all the points and then on
the bottom and then the bottom is the line, and
then the headline, and it's just like that got to
read people.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
What about your personal life? Are you dating again, seeing anybody?
Do you even have time to think about that?
Speaker 2 (38:09):
You know?
Speaker 3 (38:09):
I sometimes joke and say I don't really know where
the day or the time goes, or even what day
it is anymore.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
Dating is not on my radar. It's not you know.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
It's like I said, I'm looking at the like today, tomorrow,
and there's no dating in sight for me.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
There's still a lot of healing right now.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
You don't have the bandwidth for that, I assume.
Speaker 3 (38:30):
Right or really the will It's tough. It's tough.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
And do you and Danielle do y'all still talk at all?
Like have you'll have y'all found a common bond as
far as going through this together?
Speaker 2 (38:43):
Yeah, we have.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
We actually reconnected after back in at the end of
April early May, I think it was early May. We
reconnected and talked for the first time in probably eight
nine months. Good and then she actually was a guest
on two episodes of my podcast where we kind of
talked through our whole situation from before the show, during
the show, after the show, what we had been doing
(39:04):
the last eight months, and then how we came together,
which was really, you know, really healing for both of us.
So I think we're united and in our experience and
united in trying to get some change in the industry
that's going to help people out.
Speaker 1 (39:16):
That's awesome, man, I think that is that's a good
thing to hear, just you know, misery loves company. But
but that's the wrong that's the wrong line here. But
that's that's what came to my mind. But it's true.
A united front is a good thing just to have
somebody who's going through this at the same time that
you can share these stories with, because it's there's very
few people in this world who will understand this and
(39:38):
truly get what you've gone through. I truly understand it,
and I have empathy, and I I I see this
guy in front of me who's who's been you know,
kicked in the gut. But I do know I can
already tell you're going to be You're gonna be fine eventually.
You're in the middle of it right now. But I
know you're coming out the other side, and if there's
anything I can do, reach out. I've really enjoyed our conversation.
(40:02):
I appreciate you taking the time, yeah, and explaining everything
the way you have. I think if anybody has a
problem with Nick, play this podcast, I might right come on.
This guy is brilliant, brilliant, strong, and obviously can persevere.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
Well. Thank you.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
I think I think it's so funny how polarizing I
get over so many different things over the course of
being in the limelight a little bit, and it's just
so funny to me the things people like you said.
You don't know what's going to take off and what's
what's not.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Well, Nick, I appreciate it, and I thank you, and
I'm sorry you've gone through what you have and it's
affected you this way. But I truly think you are
going to be bigger, better, stronger as you come out
of this, and I wish you all the best. I
truly do.
Speaker 3 (40:51):
I appreciate that, and I appreciate the conversation too, and
the honesty and openness has been really nice.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
All right, my friend, I appreciate it, and you take
I'll talk to you hopefully again down the road as
this thing progresses you too.
Speaker 3 (41:04):
Thanks a lot for having me, Chris.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Thanks for listening. Follow us on Instagram at the most
dramatic pod ever, and make sure to write us a
review and leave us five stars. I'll talk to you
next time.
Hosts And Creators
Lauren Zima
Chris Harrison
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