November 2, 2025 • 22 mins
Dr. Hillary Goldsher and DeAnna continue their intimate conversation. DeAnna is determined not to repeat the mistakes she made in her marriage in her next relationship - and Dr. Hillary has guidance on how to do that!
Plus, DeAnna asks a question all women struggle with: how do you stick up for yourself in a relationship, but not be a b****?!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
iHeart Podcasts bring you the ultimate Summer of Love Tree.
This is famously Available. Welcome back to Famously Available as
your host Ben Higgins, and if you missed part one
of this episode, be sure to go back and listen.
I've en listened to the help of the incredible psychologist,
doctor Hillary gold Scher to really go in deep with Deanna.
(00:24):
Therapy is amazing and beneficial in so many ways, but
I think pretty crucial when we are on the path
of finding love and learning to love ourselves. I'm excited
to hear more from this conversation, so let's dive back in.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I continue to talk about my marriage because it's the
freshest on my mind and it was my longest relationship
that I've ever been in, and there were lots of
things right. We were on the cycle, that toxic cycle,
and we just towards the end, we just couldn't get off.
We just could not hop off the cycle. There was
no and there I personally, I could not get to
(01:01):
a place anymore of being able to change the way
I said something, or to be soft anymore, to be
soft anymore. It felt exhausting to me. I am an
overthinker in general. I can overthink. Overthinking, I can take
(01:21):
one thought internet eight way sideways in a matter of seconds.
And to sit in places where I didn't feel seen
or heard created a boiling point for me. It was
not a very healthy space for me to sit in.
If my partner needed time to process or time to
cool down, that time that they needed was a boiling
point for me because I would sit in a moment
(01:42):
of just overthinking and explosive, explosive, there was no soft
left to me.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
My go to.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Place to react is to be hard, is to be strong,
because vulnerability is very scary for me, and rightfully so,
in a lot of places, my vulnerability has been used
against me and by people that I have loved very deeply.
So vulnerability is not very easy for me. And so
instead of coming from a place and being like hey,
(02:20):
I really love you, I don't want to fight over this,
how can I be better at this situation? To me,
and I cannot even lie in this moment, it sounds
really awful for anyone listening to me. That feels weak,
like I'm being a little bitch about it, you.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Know, And I hate that. I hate that.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
But it's so interesting because with my children, I can
do that with my children. Hi, I hear that you're
upset right now. I feel that you're really upset. Please
tell me what's coming up for you. And I have
that with the utmost care and rational thinking, and I
mean it. I mean it. But I have a real
struggle with doing that for a grown man.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm sure there's an intersection of factors. One,
as I alluded to earlier, a trauma response. If you've
had wounds around people that you trusted, hurting you, abandoning you,
taking advantage of you vulnerability, it becomes a fight or
flight moment. And so one of the ways it sounds
(03:23):
like that your body has habituated to that fight or
flight is getting hard, you know, So it's protective mode,
and it's when you think about it, it's you might
not like that I say this, but it's sweet that
it's sad, you know, because underneath that is a wounded
kid who doesn't want to be hurt again, right, And
having a lot of empathy and compassion for that person
(03:45):
feels so critical, you know, for that little person that
you know, trusted and got heard. And I think if
we can septualize it that way, That's why it's easy
to do that for your kiddos, you know, because it's
so easy to see them that way, and it's so
hard to see yourself that way. But the more you're
able to integrate that that's a.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Part of you. Obviously it's not all of you. Look
at how you move through the world. You know that
that's not the case.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
But it's a part of you, and that when you
feel vulnerable and sad, that's as you know, valid as
any of the other feelings that you have. And that
trauma response, I imagine has led you astray in some moments,
which is that you show up in a way you
don't feel good about, you know. And so it's interesting
I alluded to it before, but that distinction between aggression
(04:30):
and advocacy is so important, and that younger part of
you might think that aggression is the way to go,
that's where you get all your power.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Two females talking to each other. I have a love
hate relationship with it, and I'm hoping that anyone who
is listening to us today relates to this. Okay, I'm
a woman and I want to advocate for myself and
what I believe in. But then I'm a fucking bitch
because I did right, or or I'm a door mat.
(05:00):
Yeah right, I'm a door mat. I let it sweep
under the rug because I don't want to be viewed
as a bitch because I stood up for what I
believed in and then you know who suffers is me?
So what is the fine line to teeter there? And
I'm not just asking for myself. I feel like a
really great relationship with a lot of the listeners and
the women that follow me on social media, and they
(05:21):
share these same things with me, because the truth is
is like I feel those things myself. What is the
fine line to teeter there? Because right, I'm not trying
to be a bitch, but because I'm a woman and
I speak up for myself, well then i'm too much.
So what is the fine line there?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:35):
I mean, of course there isn't like a perfect calculation,
and what I'm about to say might feel like a
cop up, but hang with me. I think mostly the
fine line is going to be felt internally because I
think we know when we're in advocacy mode, when we're grounded,
when we're clear in our communication, and when we're standing
(05:56):
up for what we know is right, and when we've
sort of moved in to territory where we're being more
defensive and looking to wound someone else right, I think
we often know where it's crossed over. So I would
say looking internally for like that uncomfortable feeling of like, ooh,
(06:17):
I'm not feeling so good about this is one piece
to keep in mind. The other sort of guiding tenants
that I like to think of is being able to
state what you want, what your expectation is, but doing
it in a digestible way.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
What does that mean. It means like keeping.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
A neutral tone, using clear words, and trying to think
about speaking to someone with respect even if we wildly
disagree or even if they're in the middle of hurting us.
Because to me, from a clinical and personal standpoint, there's
nothing more empowering than staying in calm and groundedness and
integrity even when you're upset and so being able to say,
(06:57):
I won't let you speak to me that way.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
It's not happening. Now.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
You can either adjust and reset and try again, or
I'm leaving to me. That's advocacy. I mean, those are
strong words and creating a boundary for like I'm not
letting anyone. I am not talking about letting someone disrespect
you or treat you in a way that is outside
of your value, absolutely not. But I am talking about
like delivering that message in a calm, clear way to
(07:22):
the extent possible whenever possible. And it's it's ultimately for us, really,
I mean sure, it's sort of the quote right thing
to do to the person in front of us. I mean,
they may be awful, but we feel more grounded when
we stay in that centered place inside of us, and
then it carries through to other aspects of our life
(07:43):
because when we become disregulated into the like aggressive aggression part,
we just don't feel like ourselves. We feel disassembled and disempowered.
And I feel like we I mean men and women
alike often mistake aggression for power when it actually ends
up feeling disempowering. We feel shame and eventually paralysis. But
(08:05):
when we stay in advocacy.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Probably that is what I like to call it, much.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
More playing spoken right, like an out of body experience
to that point of compressed regulation.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yes, and I want to say this because those listening
and this is an obvious next question, which is like okay, great,
that sounds super aspirational, But what about when I don't,
Because we're all not going to At times, we're all
going to get triggered, we're all going to have a
trauma response. Someone's going to be really, really awful one
too many times, and we show up in a way
that we don't feel good about. And I love to
(08:38):
always say that we can always go back, right, We
can always go back, even if the person has heard us,
even if we're deciding we're not wanting to be with
that person anymore, we can still say for our sake
less than for their some version of like what I
was saying earlier, because I love this phrasing, you know,
like my message was on point, like not changing anything
about what I was trying to convey to you, but
(08:59):
I don't like the way said it, and you know,
I want to take responsibility for that.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry for it.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
I was out of integrity, I was like out of
how I wanted to show up.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And that's about us.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
And the more we do that, the more we kind
of cobble together a sense of self that is very
grounding and that we can return to again and again
as like a safe haven internally, we don't feel as
safe when we ourselves are so dysregulated or aggressive. It
just doesn't feel as safe to be inside our skin.
So I like to like advocate for this as a
(09:30):
self advocacy proposition. It's not for the other, and so
that's why the conceptualization doesn't change in terms of how
bad the other is.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
It's really for us.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, Okay, I love everything that you said, but I
am also going to know that it's way easier said
than done.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Exactly why just say what I said, right?
Speaker 5 (09:50):
And sometimes I get just exhausted with myself because I
feel like I do so much work on me and
I do so much work on my healing because I
really want to be healthy and well for myself, for
my children, for hopefully another relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That I get exhausted with the amount of work I
do on myself. And then you know what else, I
say this all the time. I get exhausted with being
the only person doing the work at every turn, doing
all of the therapy, doing all of the things because
I want to be better. It becomes exhausting to have
to deal with people who are not also putting in
the time and effort. But I wanted to. I know,
(10:26):
we have a few minutes left, and I'm just so
grateful that you did this. I was joking with Heather,
our producer, because she was like, we only have this
amount of time, and I was like, we all know
I can talk to a wall, I could do this,
so we will have to have you back because I
love stuff like this and I find them so healing
and so helpful. But it's obviously a dating podcast, and
that's the place where I am in my life, and
(10:47):
I didn't I didn't date for some time. I've been
divorced for and not with my ex husband for some time,
and I really spent some space with myself trying to heal.
I knew that I was as a whole. Therefore I
could not possibly take on anyone else. And I do
like to do that. I like to give my full
(11:07):
self to any relationship. And I don't just mean with
the opposite sex. I mean in friendships or with my
family or anybody else. And so I knew that there
was a lot of work to be done. And now
that I am moving into that space of wanting to
find someone, I'm dealing with two things here. Hey, there's
the frustration with my God, I'm like, Okay, when is
it going to happen for me?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Lord?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And I'm not alone. I imagine many women say that,
But I am asking you and for everyone else listening,
who's there with me? How do we do this the
dating piece and not make the same mistake twice? I
don't ever want to relive what I have gone through again.
I don't want to make the same mistake twice, and
(11:47):
I don't think I will because I learn and I grow.
But like, what can I do moving into a dating space?
And maybe I preface that way with I'm not looking
to be someone's side piece. I'm not looking to casually
date for fun. I'm not looking for just a sexual
based relationship. I'm looking for someone to share life with,
(12:12):
to do life with. I am looking for a partner.
That's what I really want, And so I'm hoping maybe
you could share with me, how do I not make
the same mistakes twice? How can I do this and
find a really wonderful, valuable relationship next?
Speaker 4 (12:30):
I love this question so again to think about it.
Macro and micro. That advocacy piece that we were just
talking about applies here on the macro basis don't be
afraid to say what it is you're looking for and
what it is you want when you're on dates, when
(12:50):
you're vetting, when you're getting to know someone. I mean,
obviously we're not going to open with like, HI want
to get married and I want this kind of relationship,
but quickly, I mean, Gabe two three starting to talk
about I'm in a phase. I'm in a season of
my life where I just know myself. I know who
I am, I know what I want, and like, I
want a relationship that has death. I want a relationship
(13:13):
that has that is with someone that's interested in emotional
intimacy and like, you know, working through stuff, like cares
about what our communication looks like, like not afraid to
say it's gonna say it out loud that like doesn't
resonate cool, like let's let's finish our coffee, and like
wish each other well.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Right.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
There's something that is both grounding about that kind of advocacy,
and most men report that there's something very attractive about
a woman being able to speak her truth that way
with confidence and sounds cliche, but if someone hears you
speak a version of this and is scared off or
turned off. I mean, obviously that wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Be your person.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
You really want someone who hears this from you and
is intrigued and interested and wants to and wants to
hear and know. More So, being an advocate for what
you want and feeling confident like you have a right
to do so is really important. I think it's important
to believe people when they say things. So if someone
seems confused when you talk about what I just was
(14:12):
alluding to, or directly says like, yeah, you know, I've
never been in therapy, or like I had never really
thought about that, or that's not exactly my kind of thing,
but maybe believe what they say. If that doesn't resonate,
if they reflect on the fact that that isn't kind
of where they've been in the past or what their
particular focus is on, believe them. We have a responsibility,
(14:33):
given that word like managing our love life with intention,
to pay attention to those things, and that can mean
walking away from potential. But if you're looking for something
to be different, you have to do something differently, and
so you really have to be present to what people
are saying and believe them and turn the other way
when it's not aligned. I mean, it's not that black
(14:55):
and white or dichotomous, of course, often, but when it is,
pay attention to it.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Dating is exhausting. Relationships are exhausting. The things that you
have to consciously think of to make sure you're getting
what you want and your needs are met, as well
as caring for another human being and making sure their
needs are met and that you're in a really a
good place enough to do so. It truly is exhausting.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
It takes up The other thing I was going to
say is kind of on the micro level is mindfulness,
which is to your point why it's so exhausting.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
It is, Am I mindful?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Am I all healed? And I'm going to be.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Okay, Well that what you're asking is actually a good
springboard for me to say what I was going to say,
which might sound further exhausting. But to your point that
you were saying at the beginning, it's not dichotomous. It's
not like I'm healed and now I'm done right. It's
a lifelong pursuit to be aware of how we're moving
through the world and how we show up affects other people,
(16:06):
and to be open to feedback and to stand outside
of our feelings and advocate for them and talk about them,
and to take responsibility in terms of how we affect
other people. It's an ongoing pursuit, and so I always
hesitant when people try to think about it. Am I
am I ready? Am I healed? It's not an unworthy
(16:28):
set of questions to ask oneself, but it's really an
ongoing thing. And so I think the mindfulness piece of
like how am I showing up? And how do I
feel about it? And when I show up in a
way that I don't feel good about instead of like
feeling ashamed and then kind of suppressing or ignoring it,
like really looking at it, Oh, I got kind of
(16:48):
just regulated there.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
When do what happen? Like what was going on for me?
Speaker 4 (16:51):
What trauma response, what vulnerability was coming up for me?
And like how might I do that differently next time?
You have to continuously, bravely interact with those parts of
yourself that are like wounded or scared or afraid or
shut down or do get dysregulated. That's all of us,
by the way, So if we're not building a relationship
with those hard parts of ourselves, it's going to be
(17:12):
harder to show up the way that we want to
in a relationship. So the mindfulness is a key part
as you're going through.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
I'm so glad that you said that, because there is
a moment where I get a little frustrated with myself
and I think, Okay, my little daddy issues, right, my abandonment.
Stuff that's not going to carry me into the next relationship,
is not going to go with me. But the truth
of the matter is some of those things are deep wounds.
And I am a visual person, and I say this
(17:40):
in a sense of like when you look at a
scar on your body, the scar is there, it's never
going to leave. Right, there is a scar here. It's
always going to be there. It's never going to leave.
And that is the truth of what is deep in
my soul. There are scars there. Those things happen to me.
They can be really beautiful, but they can also get
hold of me at times to and take over. And
(18:02):
those are things, good and bad that I do carry
into every other relationship. And I'm only saying this out
loud to you because I have to tell myself, and
maybe I'm telling this little girl that needs to be
nurtured is like I don't need to be ashamed of
those things, right, And I was carrying so much and
was shamed so much for these trauma things that I
(18:25):
brought up. That the truth is, and tell me if
I'm wrong, doctor Hillary, But like, the truth is, I
don't have to be ashamed of these things. I have scars,
I have things that I have taken from every relationship
that will go with me into other ones. And there
is beauty in that.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Correct the ultimate and self advocacy. What you're doing right now,
I actually I got the chills. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
I mean the more we build a relationship with those
parts of ourselves, I mean, like a strong, loving relationship
with those parts of ourselves, not just be like okay,
I guess be around, but like come closer, come in,
let me hold you. As we move through integration, that
(19:05):
those are parts of ourselves that we are going to
have to care for, love, manage, and sometimes they're going
to be in the driver's seat and we're going to
gently be like, oops, you ended up in the driver's seat.
I'm not supposed to drive anymore. So I'm gonna generally
like put you in the back and take over again. Right,
So owning that, like, yes, I have parts of myself
that parts of myself that are wounded, and parts of
(19:28):
myself that will feel easily abandoned or easily dismissed. And
those are things I have to watch and I have
to manage. But I'm not shaming them when they come up. No,
I expect them to come up, So I greet them
with kindness, and I welcome them in. I try to
get to know them better and help them heal. Like
when of your kiddos came and said they were in
pain about something that happened at school, you wouldn't be like,
(19:50):
are you still talking about that? You know still that
happened yesterday, that happened last year. You would hold space
for as long as it hurts. And it's the same thing,
you know exponentially with trauma. So expecting those things to
come up and holding it lovingly rather than with shame
changes everything, because the minute we apply shame to those
(20:10):
parts of ourselves, it gets suppressed and we go into
like a paralysis, and we then we have no choices,
and so then we get stuck in those responses we
don't feel good about, as opposed to like, yeah, there
that is again, and I'm going to make amends if
that part of me hurts someone else, and then I'm
going to take good care of it and decide, like
what would advocacy look like in this moment, and like
(20:32):
keep trying, keep practicing.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
That's human.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Wow, it's the dirty things. I call them, the dirty things,
the shame, the guilt, the fear, the shame, the guilt
and fear. And I am one and then I can
old speak for myself, but I am one who leads
with those things. So thank you for saying that. Thank
you for right. I don't want to feel like a
broken little girl. I don't want anyone else to feel
like a broken little girl.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
We each have a story and we get to take
that and hope we learn and grow from it. So
I'm just really grateful for the conversation with you, a
joke with Heather. She knows me well, like we need
a whole afternoon.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
I'm all all.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
The healing, you know, and I'm sure they're just like
it's time for you to shut your mouth now. I'm
really really grateful, doctor Halery. Thank you for doing this,
thank you for taking the time to talk with me.
And we really should record again because there's just so
many nuggets of truth, and we can't possibly do this
in a forty five minute time period. And I'm grateful
(21:32):
for you and your knowledge and therapy. I am an
advocate for mental and emotional wellbeing, and I'm grateful for
people who can do that. So I think if we've
taken anything from this is that I can be a
licensed therapist.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
I think that's clearly the conclusion. Yes, clearly. Well, thank
you for being so.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Vulnerable because it allows us to talk about things that
are hard to talk about and people don't always get
to be like a witness to these kinds of dialogues,
you know, So I really appreciate your candor.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Thanks. Thank you so nice to stay it with you today.
Thank you you too. Thanks all right, having your time
all right byeye.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Nie, it's been jumping back in here. Wow, Doctor Hillary,
thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. Deanna.
Thank you so much for opening up on another level
to our listeners who also might be in your situation,
but also allowing yourself to be incredibly vulnerable in this
(22:31):
journey with us. We'll be back with more famously available
very soon.
iHeart Podcasts bring you the ultimate Summer of Love Tree.
This is famously Available. Welcome back to Famously Available as
your host Ben Higgins, and if you missed part one
of this episode, be sure to go back and listen.
I've en listened to the help of the incredible psychologist,
doctor Hillary gold Scher to really go in deep with Deanna.
(00:24):
Therapy is amazing and beneficial in so many ways, but
I think pretty crucial when we are on the path
of finding love and learning to love ourselves. I'm excited
to hear more from this conversation, so let's dive back in.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
I continue to talk about my marriage because it's the
freshest on my mind and it was my longest relationship
that I've ever been in, and there were lots of
things right. We were on the cycle, that toxic cycle,
and we just towards the end, we just couldn't get off.
We just could not hop off the cycle. There was
no and there I personally, I could not get to
(01:01):
a place anymore of being able to change the way
I said something, or to be soft anymore, to be
soft anymore. It felt exhausting to me. I am an
overthinker in general. I can overthink. Overthinking, I can take
(01:21):
one thought internet eight way sideways in a matter of seconds.
And to sit in places where I didn't feel seen
or heard created a boiling point for me. It was
not a very healthy space for me to sit in.
If my partner needed time to process or time to
cool down, that time that they needed was a boiling
point for me because I would sit in a moment
(01:42):
of just overthinking and explosive, explosive, there was no soft
left to me.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
My go to.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
Place to react is to be hard, is to be strong,
because vulnerability is very scary for me, and rightfully so,
in a lot of places, my vulnerability has been used
against me and by people that I have loved very deeply.
So vulnerability is not very easy for me. And so
instead of coming from a place and being like hey,
(02:20):
I really love you, I don't want to fight over this,
how can I be better at this situation? To me,
and I cannot even lie in this moment, it sounds
really awful for anyone listening to me. That feels weak,
like I'm being a little bitch about it, you.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
Know, And I hate that. I hate that.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
But it's so interesting because with my children, I can
do that with my children. Hi, I hear that you're
upset right now. I feel that you're really upset. Please
tell me what's coming up for you. And I have
that with the utmost care and rational thinking, and I
mean it. I mean it. But I have a real
struggle with doing that for a grown man.
Speaker 4 (03:01):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I'm sure there's an intersection of factors. One,
as I alluded to earlier, a trauma response. If you've
had wounds around people that you trusted, hurting you, abandoning you,
taking advantage of you vulnerability, it becomes a fight or
flight moment. And so one of the ways it sounds
(03:23):
like that your body has habituated to that fight or
flight is getting hard, you know, So it's protective mode,
and it's when you think about it, it's you might
not like that I say this, but it's sweet that
it's sad, you know, because underneath that is a wounded
kid who doesn't want to be hurt again, right, And
having a lot of empathy and compassion for that person
(03:45):
feels so critical, you know, for that little person that
you know, trusted and got heard. And I think if
we can septualize it that way, That's why it's easy
to do that for your kiddos, you know, because it's
so easy to see them that way, and it's so
hard to see yourself that way. But the more you're
able to integrate that that's a.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Part of you. Obviously it's not all of you. Look
at how you move through the world. You know that
that's not the case.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
But it's a part of you, and that when you
feel vulnerable and sad, that's as you know, valid as
any of the other feelings that you have. And that
trauma response, I imagine has led you astray in some moments,
which is that you show up in a way you
don't feel good about, you know. And so it's interesting
I alluded to it before, but that distinction between aggression
(04:30):
and advocacy is so important, and that younger part of
you might think that aggression is the way to go,
that's where you get all your power.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
Two females talking to each other. I have a love
hate relationship with it, and I'm hoping that anyone who
is listening to us today relates to this. Okay, I'm
a woman and I want to advocate for myself and
what I believe in. But then I'm a fucking bitch
because I did right, or or I'm a door mat.
(05:00):
Yeah right, I'm a door mat. I let it sweep
under the rug because I don't want to be viewed
as a bitch because I stood up for what I
believed in and then you know who suffers is me?
So what is the fine line to teeter there? And
I'm not just asking for myself. I feel like a
really great relationship with a lot of the listeners and
the women that follow me on social media, and they
(05:21):
share these same things with me, because the truth is
is like I feel those things myself. What is the
fine line to teeter there? Because right, I'm not trying
to be a bitch, but because I'm a woman and
I speak up for myself, well then i'm too much.
So what is the fine line there?
Speaker 3 (05:35):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:35):
I mean, of course there isn't like a perfect calculation,
and what I'm about to say might feel like a
cop up, but hang with me. I think mostly the
fine line is going to be felt internally because I
think we know when we're in advocacy mode, when we're grounded,
when we're clear in our communication, and when we're standing
(05:56):
up for what we know is right, and when we've
sort of moved in to territory where we're being more
defensive and looking to wound someone else right, I think
we often know where it's crossed over. So I would
say looking internally for like that uncomfortable feeling of like, ooh,
(06:17):
I'm not feeling so good about this is one piece
to keep in mind. The other sort of guiding tenants
that I like to think of is being able to
state what you want, what your expectation is, but doing
it in a digestible way.
Speaker 3 (06:32):
What does that mean. It means like keeping.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
A neutral tone, using clear words, and trying to think
about speaking to someone with respect even if we wildly
disagree or even if they're in the middle of hurting us.
Because to me, from a clinical and personal standpoint, there's
nothing more empowering than staying in calm and groundedness and
integrity even when you're upset and so being able to say,
(06:57):
I won't let you speak to me that way.
Speaker 3 (06:58):
It's not happening. Now.
Speaker 4 (07:00):
You can either adjust and reset and try again, or
I'm leaving to me. That's advocacy. I mean, those are
strong words and creating a boundary for like I'm not
letting anyone. I am not talking about letting someone disrespect
you or treat you in a way that is outside
of your value, absolutely not. But I am talking about
like delivering that message in a calm, clear way to
(07:22):
the extent possible whenever possible. And it's it's ultimately for us, really,
I mean sure, it's sort of the quote right thing
to do to the person in front of us. I mean,
they may be awful, but we feel more grounded when
we stay in that centered place inside of us, and
then it carries through to other aspects of our life
(07:43):
because when we become disregulated into the like aggressive aggression part,
we just don't feel like ourselves. We feel disassembled and disempowered.
And I feel like we I mean men and women
alike often mistake aggression for power when it actually ends
up feeling disempowering. We feel shame and eventually paralysis. But
(08:05):
when we stay in advocacy.
Speaker 3 (08:07):
Probably that is what I like to call it, much.
Speaker 2 (08:10):
More playing spoken right, like an out of body experience
to that point of compressed regulation.
Speaker 4 (08:16):
Yes, and I want to say this because those listening
and this is an obvious next question, which is like okay, great,
that sounds super aspirational, But what about when I don't,
Because we're all not going to At times, we're all
going to get triggered, we're all going to have a
trauma response. Someone's going to be really, really awful one
too many times, and we show up in a way
that we don't feel good about. And I love to
(08:38):
always say that we can always go back, right, We
can always go back, even if the person has heard us,
even if we're deciding we're not wanting to be with
that person anymore, we can still say for our sake
less than for their some version of like what I
was saying earlier, because I love this phrasing, you know,
like my message was on point, like not changing anything
about what I was trying to convey to you, but
(08:59):
I don't like the way said it, and you know,
I want to take responsibility for that.
Speaker 3 (09:02):
I'm sorry. I'm sorry for it.
Speaker 4 (09:03):
I was out of integrity, I was like out of
how I wanted to show up.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
And that's about us.
Speaker 4 (09:08):
And the more we do that, the more we kind
of cobble together a sense of self that is very
grounding and that we can return to again and again
as like a safe haven internally, we don't feel as
safe when we ourselves are so dysregulated or aggressive. It
just doesn't feel as safe to be inside our skin.
So I like to like advocate for this as a
(09:30):
self advocacy proposition. It's not for the other, and so
that's why the conceptualization doesn't change in terms of how
bad the other is.
Speaker 3 (09:40):
It's really for us.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Yeah, Okay, I love everything that you said, but I
am also going to know that it's way easier said
than done.
Speaker 3 (09:48):
Exactly why just say what I said, right?
Speaker 5 (09:50):
And sometimes I get just exhausted with myself because I
feel like I do so much work on me and
I do so much work on my healing because I
really want to be healthy and well for myself, for
my children, for hopefully another relationship.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
That I get exhausted with the amount of work I
do on myself. And then you know what else, I
say this all the time. I get exhausted with being
the only person doing the work at every turn, doing
all of the therapy, doing all of the things because
I want to be better. It becomes exhausting to have
to deal with people who are not also putting in
the time and effort. But I wanted to. I know,
(10:26):
we have a few minutes left, and I'm just so
grateful that you did this. I was joking with Heather,
our producer, because she was like, we only have this
amount of time, and I was like, we all know
I can talk to a wall, I could do this,
so we will have to have you back because I
love stuff like this and I find them so healing
and so helpful. But it's obviously a dating podcast, and
that's the place where I am in my life, and
(10:47):
I didn't I didn't date for some time. I've been
divorced for and not with my ex husband for some time,
and I really spent some space with myself trying to heal.
I knew that I was as a whole. Therefore I
could not possibly take on anyone else. And I do
like to do that. I like to give my full
(11:07):
self to any relationship. And I don't just mean with
the opposite sex. I mean in friendships or with my
family or anybody else. And so I knew that there
was a lot of work to be done. And now
that I am moving into that space of wanting to
find someone, I'm dealing with two things here. Hey, there's
the frustration with my God, I'm like, Okay, when is
it going to happen for me?
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Lord?
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And I'm not alone. I imagine many women say that,
But I am asking you and for everyone else listening,
who's there with me? How do we do this the
dating piece and not make the same mistake twice? I
don't ever want to relive what I have gone through again.
I don't want to make the same mistake twice, and
(11:47):
I don't think I will because I learn and I grow.
But like, what can I do moving into a dating space?
And maybe I preface that way with I'm not looking
to be someone's side piece. I'm not looking to casually
date for fun. I'm not looking for just a sexual
based relationship. I'm looking for someone to share life with,
(12:12):
to do life with. I am looking for a partner.
That's what I really want, And so I'm hoping maybe
you could share with me, how do I not make
the same mistakes twice? How can I do this and
find a really wonderful, valuable relationship next?
Speaker 4 (12:30):
I love this question so again to think about it.
Macro and micro. That advocacy piece that we were just
talking about applies here on the macro basis don't be
afraid to say what it is you're looking for and
what it is you want when you're on dates, when
(12:50):
you're vetting, when you're getting to know someone. I mean,
obviously we're not going to open with like, HI want
to get married and I want this kind of relationship,
but quickly, I mean, Gabe two three starting to talk
about I'm in a phase. I'm in a season of
my life where I just know myself. I know who
I am, I know what I want, and like, I
want a relationship that has death. I want a relationship
(13:13):
that has that is with someone that's interested in emotional
intimacy and like, you know, working through stuff, like cares
about what our communication looks like, like not afraid to
say it's gonna say it out loud that like doesn't
resonate cool, like let's let's finish our coffee, and like
wish each other well.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Right.
Speaker 4 (13:28):
There's something that is both grounding about that kind of advocacy,
and most men report that there's something very attractive about
a woman being able to speak her truth that way
with confidence and sounds cliche, but if someone hears you
speak a version of this and is scared off or
turned off. I mean, obviously that wouldn't.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Be your person.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
You really want someone who hears this from you and
is intrigued and interested and wants to and wants to
hear and know. More So, being an advocate for what
you want and feeling confident like you have a right
to do so is really important. I think it's important
to believe people when they say things. So if someone
seems confused when you talk about what I just was
(14:12):
alluding to, or directly says like, yeah, you know, I've
never been in therapy, or like I had never really
thought about that, or that's not exactly my kind of thing,
but maybe believe what they say. If that doesn't resonate,
if they reflect on the fact that that isn't kind
of where they've been in the past or what their
particular focus is on, believe them. We have a responsibility,
(14:33):
given that word like managing our love life with intention,
to pay attention to those things, and that can mean
walking away from potential. But if you're looking for something
to be different, you have to do something differently, and
so you really have to be present to what people
are saying and believe them and turn the other way
when it's not aligned. I mean, it's not that black
(14:55):
and white or dichotomous, of course, often, but when it is,
pay attention to it.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Dating is exhausting. Relationships are exhausting. The things that you
have to consciously think of to make sure you're getting
what you want and your needs are met, as well
as caring for another human being and making sure their
needs are met and that you're in a really a
good place enough to do so. It truly is exhausting.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
It takes up The other thing I was going to
say is kind of on the micro level is mindfulness,
which is to your point why it's so exhausting.
Speaker 5 (15:41):
It is, Am I mindful?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Am I all healed? And I'm going to be.
Speaker 4 (15:44):
Okay, Well that what you're asking is actually a good
springboard for me to say what I was going to say,
which might sound further exhausting. But to your point that
you were saying at the beginning, it's not dichotomous. It's
not like I'm healed and now I'm done right. It's
a lifelong pursuit to be aware of how we're moving
through the world and how we show up affects other people,
(16:06):
and to be open to feedback and to stand outside
of our feelings and advocate for them and talk about them,
and to take responsibility in terms of how we affect
other people. It's an ongoing pursuit, and so I always
hesitant when people try to think about it. Am I
am I ready? Am I healed? It's not an unworthy
(16:28):
set of questions to ask oneself, but it's really an
ongoing thing. And so I think the mindfulness piece of
like how am I showing up? And how do I
feel about it? And when I show up in a
way that I don't feel good about instead of like
feeling ashamed and then kind of suppressing or ignoring it,
like really looking at it, Oh, I got kind of
(16:48):
just regulated there.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
When do what happen? Like what was going on for me?
Speaker 4 (16:51):
What trauma response, what vulnerability was coming up for me?
And like how might I do that differently next time?
You have to continuously, bravely interact with those parts of
yourself that are like wounded or scared or afraid or
shut down or do get dysregulated. That's all of us,
by the way, So if we're not building a relationship
with those hard parts of ourselves, it's going to be
(17:12):
harder to show up the way that we want to
in a relationship. So the mindfulness is a key part
as you're going through.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
I'm so glad that you said that, because there is
a moment where I get a little frustrated with myself
and I think, Okay, my little daddy issues, right, my abandonment.
Stuff that's not going to carry me into the next relationship,
is not going to go with me. But the truth
of the matter is some of those things are deep wounds.
And I am a visual person, and I say this
(17:40):
in a sense of like when you look at a
scar on your body, the scar is there, it's never
going to leave. Right, there is a scar here. It's
always going to be there. It's never going to leave.
And that is the truth of what is deep in
my soul. There are scars there. Those things happen to me.
They can be really beautiful, but they can also get
hold of me at times to and take over. And
(18:02):
those are things, good and bad that I do carry
into every other relationship. And I'm only saying this out
loud to you because I have to tell myself, and
maybe I'm telling this little girl that needs to be
nurtured is like I don't need to be ashamed of
those things, right, And I was carrying so much and
was shamed so much for these trauma things that I
(18:25):
brought up. That the truth is, and tell me if
I'm wrong, doctor Hillary, But like, the truth is, I
don't have to be ashamed of these things. I have scars,
I have things that I have taken from every relationship
that will go with me into other ones. And there
is beauty in that.
Speaker 4 (18:42):
Correct the ultimate and self advocacy. What you're doing right now,
I actually I got the chills. Yes, yes, yes, yes,
I mean the more we build a relationship with those
parts of ourselves, I mean, like a strong, loving relationship
with those parts of ourselves, not just be like okay,
I guess be around, but like come closer, come in,
let me hold you. As we move through integration, that
(19:05):
those are parts of ourselves that we are going to
have to care for, love, manage, and sometimes they're going
to be in the driver's seat and we're going to
gently be like, oops, you ended up in the driver's seat.
I'm not supposed to drive anymore. So I'm gonna generally
like put you in the back and take over again. Right,
So owning that, like, yes, I have parts of myself
that parts of myself that are wounded, and parts of
(19:28):
myself that will feel easily abandoned or easily dismissed. And
those are things I have to watch and I have
to manage. But I'm not shaming them when they come up. No,
I expect them to come up, So I greet them
with kindness, and I welcome them in. I try to
get to know them better and help them heal. Like
when of your kiddos came and said they were in
pain about something that happened at school, you wouldn't be like,
(19:50):
are you still talking about that? You know still that
happened yesterday, that happened last year. You would hold space
for as long as it hurts. And it's the same thing,
you know exponentially with trauma. So expecting those things to
come up and holding it lovingly rather than with shame
changes everything, because the minute we apply shame to those
(20:10):
parts of ourselves, it gets suppressed and we go into
like a paralysis, and we then we have no choices,
and so then we get stuck in those responses we
don't feel good about, as opposed to like, yeah, there
that is again, and I'm going to make amends if
that part of me hurts someone else, and then I'm
going to take good care of it and decide, like
what would advocacy look like in this moment, and like
(20:32):
keep trying, keep practicing.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
That's human.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Wow, it's the dirty things. I call them, the dirty things,
the shame, the guilt, the fear, the shame, the guilt
and fear. And I am one and then I can
old speak for myself, but I am one who leads
with those things. So thank you for saying that. Thank
you for right. I don't want to feel like a
broken little girl. I don't want anyone else to feel
like a broken little girl.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
We each have a story and we get to take
that and hope we learn and grow from it. So
I'm just really grateful for the conversation with you, a
joke with Heather. She knows me well, like we need
a whole afternoon.
Speaker 3 (21:10):
I'm all all.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
The healing, you know, and I'm sure they're just like
it's time for you to shut your mouth now. I'm
really really grateful, doctor Halery. Thank you for doing this,
thank you for taking the time to talk with me.
And we really should record again because there's just so
many nuggets of truth, and we can't possibly do this
in a forty five minute time period. And I'm grateful
(21:32):
for you and your knowledge and therapy. I am an
advocate for mental and emotional wellbeing, and I'm grateful for
people who can do that. So I think if we've
taken anything from this is that I can be a
licensed therapist.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
I think that's clearly the conclusion. Yes, clearly. Well, thank
you for being so.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
Vulnerable because it allows us to talk about things that
are hard to talk about and people don't always get
to be like a witness to these kinds of dialogues,
you know, So I really appreciate your candor.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
Thanks. Thank you so nice to stay it with you today.
Thank you you too. Thanks all right, having your time
all right byeye.
Speaker 1 (22:10):
Nie, it's been jumping back in here. Wow, Doctor Hillary,
thank you so much for being a part of this conversation. Deanna.
Thank you so much for opening up on another level
to our listeners who also might be in your situation,
but also allowing yourself to be incredibly vulnerable in this
(22:31):
journey with us. We'll be back with more famously available
very soon.
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Lauren Zima
Chris Harrison
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