April 13, 2021 • 46 mins
What do The Office, Freaks and Geeks and The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air have in common? If you said one of the greatest comedy casting directors of our time, you would be correct! Brian welcomes legendary casting director Allison Jones into the studio to chat about how bad stand-up comedians are at auditions (God bless them), the time she talked back to a studio executive, and the shame she feels after passing up Kristen Wiig for a reading.
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(01:33):
This is Alison Jones, casting director from the Office. Hello everybody,
and welcome back to the Office Deep Dive. I'm your host,
Brian Baumgartner. Today you're going to be hearing my interview
(01:54):
with Alison Jones, the casting director of the Office, the
the person responsible for putting together the ensemble, our merry
band of misfits on the Office. Now, you might think
after casting her job was done, she was gone. That
(02:15):
is that is not true. Allison was involved throughout the
entire series, right, So every actor that comes on to
the Office, even for one episode, she was um responsible
working with the directors and the writers casting those roles.
So from a guest star spot who just appears in
(02:35):
one episodes two people like Rashida Jones, Kathy Bates, Idris Elbam,
she works with the writers and the directors every week
um to cast these characters. So Allison has the most
amazing stories to tell, not even just about the Office,
she has worked on so many incredible shows and movies.
(02:59):
She is truly known as the greatest comedy casting director today.
UM so enjoy Allison Jones. Bubble and Squeak. I love it.
Bubble and Squeaker, Bubble and squeaker Cookie every moment lift
(03:23):
over from the natty. Look at you, fancy, Oh my god,
how are you. I'm so happy to see you. Look
at a second older. I don't know, I really don't.
(03:45):
I look younger. I don't know what that is. I
have all my pilot stuff here. If you have any
specific research material, I love it is. Yeah, I'm sorry.
You're good. Are you good? I'm very well? And you good? Yeah,
of course you are. I'm good. Well, I don't know
(04:07):
what quite understands what's happened with the Office. It's just
going haywire. Well, I know that's kind of what we're
trying to figure out. Why, because it's good. I guess,
I guess, I guess what is this? I feel like
I'm in good Barning Vietnam. Um, this is good, right,
(04:27):
this is so fun. Well, the awesome thing is that.
Um I even kept their silly reviews a box of
stuff that I still haven't gone through. Yeah, it's all fun.
The stuff we keep, um mine is just I printed
out some emails and that kind of stuff. I have
a message in Phyllis is writing, telling Greg where to
(04:50):
meet Steve Carrell at what time at what DELI in
Phyllis is writing. That's so crazy. So um, year ago,
probably this month, we were finalizing cast. Yeah yeah, well
no exactly because before we filmed in February and we
started in two thousand three, because that's when I had to.
(05:12):
I just remember that was when we started everything, right, Um,
so when did you? Were you aware of the British
version of The Office? You were before you were hired on?
You you do that show? Okay? And did you like it?
I loved it. I forget where we could see it,
but it came on the scene at the same time
(05:32):
it did, and it was these two new cutting edge
comedy shows. And The Office was such a big thing
because people were like, you're not gonna believe the show.
You're not going to believe it's an actual show and
not a documentary. So yes, I was aware of it okay,
But at that time, there was nothing on American television
that looked like that, not even close, you know, um,
nothing that looked like because everybody thought it was a documentary.
(05:55):
It was so subtly shot, and it was so subtly
conceived of the only close thing would have been I guess, um,
Larry Sanders, Larry Sanders. Yeah, and so how did you
how did you come on board? Probably NBC set me
up with a few other casting people to interview with
Greg and Ben and Terry over it. There a little
(06:16):
bungalow at Universal. So I went in thrilled, I got it,
you know, an interview for this job. And um, I
do remember saying to Phillis, this is a huge deal.
This could be a huge deal if I get this one. Um.
And it was a bunch of them at the table
and Greg was Greg quiet, and you know, so you
(06:37):
did Freaks and Geeks and we like the fact that
you found real people on Freaks and I'm imitating Greg
and Geeks and uh. After then again I had to
meet with Ben Silverman in his house up in Mulholland
Drive or something, and I remember it was during a
playoff game for the Red Sox and I was waiting out.
I'm a Red Sox fan, and I was waiting out
(06:58):
in my car to see who won the game. And
then I went in and realized he was also a
Red Sox fan. So we were joyous and I probably
got the job because of the Red Sox. Yeah. He
talked about Paul Gi and Madi at the time. For
Michael Scott, Yeah, okay, so that was the first name
that came up. I probably had more names when I
talked to Greg for the actual interview. Um, but I
(07:21):
remember Ben mentioning Paul Giamatti, and he may have also
mentioned Philip Symore Hoffman, but I for some reason, I
specifically remember him saying Paul May at the time when
movie stores wouldn't touch television, right, wouldn't touch it the
bottom of the barrel. Yeah, so you come in. So,
I mean, your list of stuff that you have worked
(07:42):
on is like crazy, um, starting with Family Ties, the
Best job Ever, Golden Girls, Fresh Prince Boy meets whirl Um,
and then there seemed to be like a shift with
Freaks and Geeks. I mean, Freaksing Geeks was kind of
the first cool show I worked on and sort of
non networking show, which is probably why it failed. But
(08:03):
definitely Judd Apatow and Paul fi changed the whole scene
in UM, the style of the comedy, the writing, the
not the sitcom rhythm, the reality rhythm, the non beautiful
people rhythm. With all due respect to you, Briant, but
(08:25):
completely the first time I'd ever done anything like that
because all the team shows at the time, the kids
had to be beautiful. Yeah. I had just finished a
pilot called Roswell High and every kid had to look
like the kids from um Dawson's Creek and it was
torture and every kid had to be beautiful and blah
blah blah blah. And we tested Heath Ledger and he
wasn't even cute enough to be on the show, according
(08:47):
to the head of Fox. So all the rejects from
that I gladly brought in for Freaks and Geeks because
they were so much more interesting and talented. And it
was great that Paul and Judd just wanted real kids, right,
But Greg had seen Freaks and Geeks. That was the
first thing he brought up. So Paul Feig, in this
New Yorker piece, said that you will be recognized as
(09:11):
having changed the face of comedy as much as any
comedy filmmaker. What what do you think he meant by that?
I think just bringing in um, real people who also
were talented and funny and unique. Yeah, brought their own
version of comedy too, whatever character it was. Plus, I
(09:31):
did start in comedy, and it was you know, the Family,
Ties and Benson. They were all sitcoms and you needed
I instantly started to learn all the comics out there,
and which meant you had to physically do the legwork
and go to the comedy store ten nights in a
row and go to the improv ten nights in a row.
UM comics not necessarily being the most together people, God
(09:53):
bless them, but right away hitting the ground running. I
brought in all the stand ups and stuff. For if
you watch Golden Girls, Ull occasionally see you know Don
Marere is serving Betty White or something. I was always
bringing in stand ups. It made sense to me, and
for me it was based in SNL Saturday Night Live
since the college, appreciating that new version of comedy, the real,
(10:17):
smart and still at the same time stupid version of
comedy in Second City SCTV. But stand ups was what
we had access to at that time going out and
doing the way, and they rarely got hired because their
God bless him, not skilled at auditioning. You know, you'd
bring a Knie Knee of Ardallos and Steve Carrell and
(10:39):
they were usually very over the top. Not until jud
and Paul came along did they think that was actually
a plus and they were correct interesting, So they would
have trouble because of that, oh I think, so yeah,
to get by studios and things. I remember, you know,
bringing people in like David's Bad and Rob Schneider and
Jim Carey and Dennis Leary and they never got hired.
(11:02):
Adam Sandler once got hired when he was probably twenty
first show I was doing, because the executive producer, Richie
rosen Stock, understood that his vibe was interesting and not
just being able to deliver a joke like um a
sitcom guy, right, And then that started to shift that
(11:23):
in the office with Judd and Paul in particular, I think,
and then your Adam McKay's came in and UM brought
in all the Will Ferrells and all that kind of thing.
It definitely was birthed way back when and prior to
when I was doing it with Judd too, I think, right,
I think that there was also kind of a change,
(11:46):
like you said, from sort of that traditional sitcom style
to more comedies with heart, I believe. So, yeah, yeah,
was there a different type of person you were looking
for for that the first sitcom stuff we did, it
was mostly finding someone who literally could do it, could
do sitcom joke delivery. That was the first thing I
(12:09):
had to say, could they read? Could they do the jokes?
But um, the writing I think matured a little bit too. Yeah,
but single camera comedy was not around, right, Yeah, so
that was part of it. Absolutely. Not having still took
a long time to catch on to most of us.
It was pretty obvious that's the easiest to write for
(12:29):
you don't have to put it into a template of
writing a joke. And that was a slow evolution, right.
Sports Night was the first good one and didn't even
stay on the air, and it was so much funnier
than a sitcom. Great, Yeah, did you work on Sports Night?
I did not, but I just remember thinking, wow, this
is great. There's no left track, blah blah blah blah. Right,
(12:50):
so it became that's so interesting that you were looking
for someone who could do it. Just do it. Yeah,
deliver the jokes. Deliver that joke so that it hit,
so the laugh track could play. Right. And somebody who
wasn't necessarily um you know, Jack Benny, somebody who also
could act, not that he couldn't. God bless him, right,
(13:14):
so um. Paul Rudd, in the same New Yorker article,
said that you have the ability to find people that
your heart can break for. Oh, that's very I didn't
read the article, believe it. I'm too shy to read that.
I get you. I've barely watched any but I am
very I I think I'm very empathic when it comes
(13:34):
to actors and comedy and thinking. Look at that kid
from Mclub and he'd be awesome. That kid has gotten
beat up so much in his life. He'd be awesome.
So I think, um, yes, that was a very good
way to put it. Very nice. It's a hard time
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coming February. So, how did you go about assembling your
(17:55):
list for the office? Well, uh, it was mostly leg
where auditioning, and well, we first had to go in
with a list. Nancy Perkins was the head of casting
at Universal, and we went in with a long list
of men and other names to remember and um, all
the people at the time, half of them wouldn't do
TV and some of them were not people who the
(18:15):
network would want. But um, a list of probably thirty
five names, and this is for just for Michael Scott
or for all the roles kind of kind of the
big ones. But um, those are mostly exercises. Lists are
really just exercises because you don't know anything until you
get out there and start making offers and start reading people.
But um, I I always like to cast non star people.
(18:39):
I think it pays off the most in the end
in terms of risk reward UM finding a unique voice exactly, yes,
and getting the people that I know, have known for
years can step it up and be really interesting and
really funny. Yeah. I had cast Rain before, I had
cast Jenna, before, i'd read Steve before I had had
(19:00):
the pleasure to cast him. But the people that we
read for all these roles were groundlings and UCB people
that um just did not get a break. So it
was really fun to put them together with terrifically beautiful,
subtle writing and everybody that was a little a little
more well received than some other pilots because it was
(19:24):
the Office and all those people were into the Office,
the British version of the Office. Um, everybody's just assumed
we'd get crucified. But we had great people coming anyway,
just happy to be doing the pilot. Right, So you
made your lists? Was there anyone you didn't know it
at all from the cast? I didn't know you. I
didn't know um Leslie, I didn't know Oscar and I
(19:46):
remember I had seen him in an episode of Reno
N one one, it was like, who's that freaking guy?
He's hilarious. Um, I didn't know John. I had just
met him on a general I did not know John
until he read John. Yeah, that's who I wondered me
and John. So I've heard And I didn't know this
right because I didn't test with the other thing the
testing processes. The uniqueness of Yes that was that the
(20:09):
first time you had ever done yes, and it was
it was a um sensible choice because normally you would
go in and test at a network with a bunch
of studio executives in the head of the network sitting
in the back of the room and you come in
and you're like, okay, be funny. That was the sitcom
way to do it. And it didn't matter the level
of subtlety. This one. We said, look at you're not
(20:30):
going to get what this person has to offer unless
you film it and see it what it's going to
look like on screen. So greg I was able to
talk them into that. So we did two days of testing,
two long days of mixing and matching actors and Ken
directing them and and Yes, it was the first time
that has happened, I believe, at least in my experience
(20:51):
with testing for a pilot, and that made sense because
of the format of the show, which hadn't been done
before either the documentary yeah, the documentary style, and I
think yes. Part of the auditions was we had one
one or two monologues that we let them pick from
that were all of our sides were from, mostly from
(21:11):
the pilot of the English Office, without being americanized too much,
so a lot of it sounded English coming out of
the American actor's mouths. But I remember the Gym side
saying do you like a drink? I remember thinking we
don't say that. Most of the actors said the same
thing to do you like a drink? Yeah. The process
do you remember it taking especially long or it took
(21:35):
the fall of two thousand three for casting? It was
very time consuming because we had to make DVDs. Sorry, um,
not DVDs. We didn't have DVDs then we had VCR.
We had half inch tapes that you had to copy
in real time to send to England. I remember doing that.
My whole Thanksgiving was making tapes which I still have
of the Gym's of the Michael Scott's of the Palms
(21:58):
for Ricky Gervais and Um, you know, you pressed tape
and you press play and then you had to copy
them in real time, so it was more time consuming
for everybody having to actually look at all the tapes
after getting them FedEx overnight. Um, how much was Ricky
You said you made tapes and sent them to London?
How much was Ricky did? Very much? So he didn't
(22:18):
win with me, that's for sure. I've never met the guy,
though I think he's genius in his golden globe stuff
is effing genius. Anyway, Um, I never met him at all,
but I know he weighed in heavily with um Greg
about casting choices. They wouldn't I'm sure if he didn't
like someone, they wouldn't have gone with them. So yes,
it took a little bit longer, Um, and we read
(22:39):
a lot of people, and I preread a lot of people.
Now pickings are slimmer. You know, there's so many shows
out there that you start with a hundred names and
ten of them are available. Right then, it was more
a little more freedom. Also, everybody is onto now hiring
people from the Growlings and UCB and so that's who
they bring in first for comedy. You know, one of
(23:00):
my shameful things was I pre read Christin Wig and
didn't even bring her back for Greg. I'm Kristen. I apologize,
but um, I don't recall why. But that's funny. And
then when I went back and looked at our audition,
she was terrific. She was Kristin Wig doing it, and
she was terrific. She was a groundling at the time,
and I didn't. I just for some reason didn't bring
her back for Greg. I think maybe Jenna. Jenna was
(23:22):
the biggest shoe in. I think from the start of
reading she was the first woman to read PAM. I
remember Terry Weinberg saying I could watch you all day,
and um, we had you know, we tested other PAMs,
but I think Jenna was sort of the high bar
that we set. And how much did um the chemistry
between Jenna and John then impact John. I was not
(23:48):
in the room at the time when they were reading together,
but I assume it completely impacted John because Jenna John
was effortless, effortless, and he had mostly just I had
seen him in a commercial where he got his eyebrows
shape or something, and I remember casting director New York
Bonnie Finnigan saying, this kid, John Krasinski is effortlessly funny.
You won't believe how he's funny. He just talks, and
(24:09):
he's funny. Jenna, though lower in energy. I'm sure if
you asked John that question he would say it hugely
impacted his performance because in his first audition he was
a little more strident. Jenna was always very low key interesting. Um,
what were you looking for between? But we haven't talked
about Rain. Oh yeah, yeah, Dwight and and Jim. Yeah,
(24:34):
were there specific things that you were looking for? Rain
is so odd that would have been one. Yeah, you
knew that Dwight had to be odd, just an oddball
and a nerd and sort of annoying. And Jim had
to be a little cute, a little appealing. Um, not
that Rain is not. He's very appealing. But m Rain
(24:56):
just a comedy genius always. He must have loved the
first He mean, he first read for Michael Scott, and
I think I think he requested that through his agent
that could he also read from Michael Scott or maybe
I just brought him in for Michael Scott. I don't
recall because he did read for both at the time. Um,
he was the first person to read period. But I
(25:16):
believe we mostly thought he was going to be Dwight
and he also wanted to read for Michael Scott. He
probably could have worked as Michael Scott too. God, we
read a lot of good people that in some version
would have worked. You know, all these people. You know,
we rejected a lot of great people for the right. Yeah.
I remember Louis c. K wasn't available at the time,
and that was a bummer because he would have been
a he had to deal at CBS. He always had
(25:37):
a deal at CBS. But of all the people, I
wanted to bring it, and Paul Gimaty just said no
right off the bat because it was a TV show,
I believe. Then we went to Philip Symore Hoffman, the
late great Philip sy Moore Hoffman, and he said no
as well because it was TV. I'm oh, yeah, And
it's funny because that's all Paul does now, right. And
(25:58):
the great thing is I started out I have nothing
makes me happier to see that TV is the new
film nothing, because so many people rejected all the TV
I worked on for twenty years, because it was TV.
It was like, I don't want to do TV. And
stunt casting, as they call it now, was not really
a thing when I started. My boss, Judith Wiener, used
to call it love boat casting when they made us
(26:19):
put a big name in a role that made no sense.
You know, Stevie Wonders Limo breaks down outside of the
Huxtable's house and he he comes in. And so I
started without doing that. Um. And also for some reason,
I just thought I was supposed to find new people,
and maybe that that must have come from Judith. Go
out there and find new funny voices. UM. So you
(26:42):
like casting unknowns and essentially everybody unknown in this Do
you remember was there pushback from the network about that? Uh?
Sometimes push back from the people in the room, Remember
Greg and I really Patton Oswalt for Michael Scott and
some of the people in the room. No, he gave,
(27:06):
of course a fantastic reading, and Patton was a stand
up at the time. Um. Mostly before they got to
the network, it was pushed packed from various people in
the room. The network then was not as intrusive as
they are now. They don't see every single goddamn audition
before they approve who's going to test? We just told
them who were testing. We made the test option deal
(27:26):
and showed them the tests. It wasn't everybody at a
certain level getting approval after approval after approval of who
can even go near besides, you know that that exist.
You can tell him sarcasm that exists? Now, Yeah? Right?
How much discussion was there or were you aware of
(27:48):
that writers were going to end up being actors? I
think at the beginning, b J came in, Greg said
there's a couple of guys I want to bring in
to see if they'll work as actors too, And Mandy
didn't have to read as far as I know, But
b J came in, and BJ was hired as an actor.
He was hired as an actor. But also Greg was
cognizant effect that he was a writer as well. Greg
was up front about that right away. I didn't know
(28:09):
Paul or anything at the time. PAULI burstin or and
Greg had us bringing a lot of his friends who
wrote for The Simpsons, who were awesomely weird and great,
who I didn't know at all. I didn't know. I
didn't It was another the first time I realized writers
were just as funny as actors when it came to
this kind of comedy, if not more. Um, some of
those people, god bless him, were too weird for viewing. Um.
(28:35):
But um, he totally was upfront about having trying to
get some people who could write end. Now there's a
little funky thing about trying to do that. Now there's
unions who get find you or something if you do that.
But then it was fine. Um. Who was the first
person cast? Was it? Jenna? No? I think they all came.
I think we all went to the network and looked
(28:56):
at tapes, and I think Greg he showed the the
cast he wanted and that's who was approved. And that
was cool. Kevin Riley really got it. I have to
tell you, he really got it. Yeah, that's not commonly
the case. What what did Kevin get? He got the
vibe of the office. Kevin Riley really, Uh, you could
(29:20):
tell loved the genre and the show and he got it. Yes,
he did. He got it right away. And whoever hired
Greg Daniels got it too. Who would have that been?
Kevin Ben Ben Silverman? Completely? Yeah. Hi, I'm Glory Adam,
(29:48):
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(32:25):
So the rest of the ensemble like Angela. Yes, Angela
had had read for Pam, right, Angela read for Pam
and then Angela I sort of knew upfront that she
was related to Greg somehow, so I said, I remember
Phillis and I saying this too, Greg, Okay, what we
think we should do is pretend we don't know she's
related to you, and we'll say she's our choice. And
(32:46):
she was great for that that role. I don't know
if that role was based on a person in the
British show. I don't think it was Um. So we
had a little plan with Greg. We're gonna push for
Angela because we know she's right, but we're going to
pretend we don't know she's related to And then when
we were in the room, Greg for some reason objected
and Phillis and I were like kicking each other under
the table. Jesus, but somehow, I don't know what happened there,
(33:10):
but we got Angela. So maybe that was his um
reverse psychology or something. But we had old Um an
Oscar similar. Oh, so you didn't know Oscar before. I
didn't know Oscar. I had seen him like the week
before the session one, and he was so good and
I was so embarrassed I didn't know him. Most everybody
read for Stanley. I think I think there were two parts. Basically, Yes,
(33:36):
the genius casting of Greg was seeing how Mulaura would
have worked because not necessarily a huge comedy person. That
was the year when people um wanted Helen Hunt or
somebody like that. So, um, these lovely women who could
also be funny. And did you know m Laura before? Oh? Yes,
she was a child actor. Knew her. She was a
(33:58):
child actress, right, and gorgeous too. It was like, okay,
well we'll still bring her in because he is the
thing about that people have to be real and not
necessarily high fashion models. But um, what is this? Was
this a true? Um? I remember hearing this at some point.
Was there Scranton pretty or Scranton Hot? Sorry, Scranton hot.
(34:21):
Scranton Hot sounds more familiar. It's like when we did
Veep it was like they have to be Washington d
c attractive, not real attractive, and they had to look
basically dumpy. Yes, that was definitely a thing. Scranton hot. Yeah.
Do you remember the casting process for Amy Adams oh yes, um,
(34:42):
Amy Heckerling. Was she the director? Amy Heckerling. Um. I
thought she looked too much like Jenna, so we didn't
hire her. We hired somebody else at first, and then um,
somebody else in the room wanted to go for stunt
casting and I just did not want to do that.
I was the whole time. I think I was hated
(35:02):
because I would not shut up about how it's a documentary.
Suddenly Matt Damon isn't going to show up in Scranton,
so that drove me crazy. Um was Greg on board
with that? Oh, for the most part, Greg was on
board with it. But as the network started getting more
involved with sweep sweak and stuff, they started saying, you
have to use Ben affleck or blah blah blah blah,
and I was everybody would say that. I was always
(35:24):
against that. I never agreed with that at all. It
just to me it broke the DNA of the show.
So we never did it much at all. Right, the
Super Bowl episode that pissed me off, Yes, but they
cleverly thought of a little way to put Jack Black
in there. He was on a YouTube thing or something.
It was. Um. I never normally would talk back to
a studio executive. But I believe I did it on
a conference call. I would never normally ever do that
(35:47):
and say something was a bad idea because they were
mentioning Brad Pitt and George Clooney was like, what are
you Evan kidding me? They're going to show up in Scranton.
So I was vociferous about not not wanting that right.
So after the pilot, your job gets much easier through
that first season, second season, yes, yeah, there weren't that
(36:07):
many people that came on. But I wanted to talk
just a little bit about how Ed Helms and Rashida
were brought in. Where they brought in? Was that through
you or no? I think, I think, I don't. I
don't know. Fully, you'd have to ask Greg how Ed
Helms came into the picture. It may have been through NBC.
(36:27):
Rashida auditioned and we had to audition many, many women
for that part, and Rashida got that, Um she's the
most gorgeous woman in the world, so she had to
play it down. But her chemistry with John was great.
They were friends at the time, and we read many
other very good women at the time. But that was
audition Ed, I think came in through NBC and Greg.
(36:50):
I believe that was created for him. He was freaking great.
I mean Ed had just come off The Daily Show,
which pretty much produced every jure funny person on the
Office and thereafter everything else Yeah except me, except for
Brian and Phillis. Yeah. Um, when Steve left. Thoughts, what
(37:13):
did you think was the ended? Yes? Totally I thought
it should have ended though I had always loved people
like Katherine Take these people that Greg was aware of
that could do great things on the show. I have
no idea how they came up with James Spader or so. Yes,
I thought the show should have ended, except for the
(37:33):
actor's sake. I did not want it. Was like, no,
we gotta keep Phillis employed. They all have to keep
the job. Um, And I thought it made sense it
could go on. But I just thought Steve was so
great and it was seven years. It would be tough.
But it also made sense that Ed was the logical
choice to be bumped up. I think so. Some people
(37:54):
who have come in have talked about being disappointed that
the network didn't trust the existing ensemble enough and felt
like they needed to bring in I'm sure that passed
me off to. Yeah, I would not privy to those
those things about Spader, and I believe many of us thought,
what do you mean you can't make it one of
(38:16):
these guys on the show. Yes, I'm sure that was
the case. Right. Where do you think the ensemble of
the Office fits in television history? Good? Okay, right up
there with Mary Tyler Moore and Lou Grant, which were
genius and wonderful right up there, I think, and like
news Radio and amazing ensemble, Seinfeld, amazing ensemble. Up there
(38:40):
was all of them. Yeah. What do you think made
it special? The people? The people and number one the writing,
Ricky Gervais, the style. Yeah, you give Ricky credit completely. Yeah,
that was like an Adam bomb of comedy. When the
British Office hit the scene, it was like an Adam
(39:00):
bomb of comedy. So yes, I would see Ricky Gervais
and Stephen Merchant right where I am today, and my
entire life is due to you agreeing to see me. Oh,
thank you. I'm sure I looked at your head shot
(39:21):
and thought, yeah, he'd be good. He looks like a
real dude, right, and Phillis and everybody on the show.
How you know who were unknowns. How does that make
you feel? Terrific? Makes me feel happy and it it
is the reward I get in this career and why
(39:42):
I think why many casting people like what we do
because we get to assist people in um getting gigs.
But it's more than that. I mean. I remember coming
back and after getting the office, saying to feel as
this could be the most important job I've ever had.
And I'm not kidding. I said that to her, thinking
selfishly but having no idea. It's the most important job
(40:02):
I've ever had because Phillis life's changed. It changed her life.
What's crazy to me is that you had the same
reaction that I had. Oh my god, I got the office. Yeah,
oh you had that too, of course, yes, when I
got by you, I love that. I remember when Jennet
(40:25):
we cast Jenna. I remember calling her agent at the time,
Michael Green, and I got emotional because we don't get
to tell the actors, but we get to tell the agents.
And I remember saying to Michael exactly this, I'm calling
to tell you that Jenna Fisher got the office, and
somehow there was silence on the phone. I was about
to cry. I think Michael was about to cry. Um,
(40:46):
but I was always happy to say. Sometimes business affairs
beat you to the punch and they tell the agent.
I always say, please, after all this, can we at
least tell the agent that they got the job right? Um?
Why do you think that? You know? So Rain and
I talk and and I said to him, this is
close to a year ago now. I said, I think
(41:06):
that the show is bigger now than it was when
we were on NBC on Thursday nights. And he said, oh,
it's a factor of yeah, by a factor of a hundred.
Why why do you think? I don't know. I mean,
I think the real people in it, but I think everybody.
(41:27):
Everybody can relate to working in an office like that.
You can insert yourself into that show very easily. And
you love the actors, You love you guys, and the
writing is brilliant and it's very subtly funny. But it
must there must be some comfort in the office. See
I find comfort in Downtown Abbey. So I watched them
a million times, but there must be great comfort. And
(41:48):
what I also learned recently, kids love the Office. Now
I love it. Kids who were nine or ten, It
wasn't a show that was made for them. Really no,
oh god no, And they're being probably a little more
sophisticated these days. But I think there must be some
measure of comfort, especially in today's world, where, um, things
that happened to you happened on the office, same way
(42:09):
as in Seinfeld, things that happened to you happened in
the office, and you have you had a jerk in
your office. And yes, yes, um, I can't rewatch The Office.
It makes me too sad because I had so much
fun on it. It just makes me too melancholy. I
cannot watch it. But then again, I can't even watch
Family Ties. I feel, oh god, that was so much fun.
I can't deal with it. But what I'll zoom in
(42:31):
on is who came in for certain roles. What does
the office mean to you? Just very proud I was
able to work on it. That's what it means to me.
I mean very proud. I'm proud, proud, proud to say
I I oh, I worked on the office. Awesome. Yeah, Alison,
thank you so freaking much, thank you, thank you. That's all, folks,
(43:07):
Actually that is not all, because you are going to
be hearing some more from Alison next week. When we
interview Phillis Smith a k A. Phyllis laughing fans, Allison
makes a surprise appearance and I cannot wait for you
to hear. It makes me emotional thinking about him until then.
(43:28):
Huge thank you to Allison for coming in and chatting
with me. Allison, I know you do not love being
in the spotlight, but you were amazing to all of
you listeners. Have a fantastic week. I will see you
next time on The Office Deep Dive. The Office Deep
(43:52):
Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,
alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
(44:13):
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by seth Olandsky. Hey, it's de Lieva. I'm here to
(44:38):
tell you about my brand new podcast, Delifa at your Service.
I'll be sitting down with the world's most inspiring minds
to uncover what makes them take and what they've learned
from the obstacles life has thrown at them, including Sir
Elton John. After a lot of upsets, a lot of disappointments,
a lot of betrayals, It's turned out to be the
most wonderful life right now that I've could ever imagined.
(44:58):
Listen to do Alifa your service on the I Heart
radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves
around underworld and criminals and entertainers to victims, crime and
law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game Gainst.
The Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify from motilicit activities. We just
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discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because at
the wall, if you played Gainst games, you are ultimately
rewarded with Gainster prizes. Our Heart radios number one for podcasts,
but don't take our award for it. Find Against the
Chronicles podcast and my Heart radio app or wherever you
get your podcast. Hi guys, I'm Jade Ivan and I
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host tell me about It, the podcast that is the
antithesis of a success story podcast, where we leave things
like girl Boss Energy and Lucky breaks at the door
and instead celebrate and commiserate about all the things that
make us human. This is the podcast manifestation of those
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We have all kinds of women from all different walks
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La Kent, Raven Simone, and Jojo. Listen to Tell Me
about It with Jade Iven on the I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey, it's Jake Halpern here. If you've ever wondered what
it's like to make a true crime podcast like deep Cover, well,
now's your chance to find out. Join me and my
friend Dana Goodyear, who's the host of Pushkin's Lost Hills podcast,
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We'll talk about how we make our stories dramatic and accurate,
(00:23):
and how we navigate all the ethical dilemmas that we
face in the process. Get your tickets now at moment
house dot com backslash d c l H. That's moment
house dot com slash d c l H. Conquer your
New Year's resolutions with the Before Breakfast podcast. In each
(00:44):
bite sized daily episode, you'll learn how to make the
most of your time with practical tools to help you
feel less busy and get more done. Listen to Before
Breakfast on the I Heart Radio app four wherever you
get your podcasts. I'm Colleen what Join me the host
of Eating Wall Broke podcast While I eat a meal
created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers, and celebrities over a
(01:05):
meal they once eight when they were broke. Today I
have the Lovely aj Crimson, the official Princess of compon Asia,
Kidding and Asia. This is the professor. We're here on
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Listen to Eating While Broke on the I Heart Radio
app on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
(01:33):
This is Alison Jones, casting director from the Office. Hello everybody,
and welcome back to the Office Deep Dive. I'm your host,
Brian Baumgartner. Today you're going to be hearing my interview
(01:54):
with Alison Jones, the casting director of the Office, the
the person responsible for putting together the ensemble, our merry
band of misfits on the Office. Now, you might think
after casting her job was done, she was gone. That
(02:15):
is that is not true. Allison was involved throughout the
entire series, right, So every actor that comes on to
the Office, even for one episode, she was um responsible
working with the directors and the writers casting those roles.
So from a guest star spot who just appears in
(02:35):
one episodes two people like Rashida Jones, Kathy Bates, Idris Elbam,
she works with the writers and the directors every week
um to cast these characters. So Allison has the most
amazing stories to tell, not even just about the Office,
she has worked on so many incredible shows and movies.
(02:59):
She is truly known as the greatest comedy casting director today.
UM so enjoy Allison Jones. Bubble and Squeak. I love it.
Bubble and Squeaker, Bubble and squeaker Cookie every moment lift
(03:23):
over from the natty. Look at you, fancy, Oh my god,
how are you. I'm so happy to see you. Look
at a second older. I don't know, I really don't.
(03:45):
I look younger. I don't know what that is. I
have all my pilot stuff here. If you have any
specific research material, I love it is. Yeah, I'm sorry.
You're good. Are you good? I'm very well? And you good? Yeah,
of course you are. I'm good. Well, I don't know
(04:07):
what quite understands what's happened with the Office. It's just
going haywire. Well, I know that's kind of what we're
trying to figure out. Why, because it's good. I guess,
I guess, I guess what is this? I feel like
I'm in good Barning Vietnam. Um, this is good, right,
(04:27):
this is so fun. Well, the awesome thing is that.
Um I even kept their silly reviews a box of
stuff that I still haven't gone through. Yeah, it's all fun.
The stuff we keep, um mine is just I printed
out some emails and that kind of stuff. I have
a message in Phyllis is writing, telling Greg where to
(04:50):
meet Steve Carrell at what time at what DELI in
Phyllis is writing. That's so crazy. So um, year ago,
probably this month, we were finalizing cast. Yeah yeah, well
no exactly because before we filmed in February and we
started in two thousand three, because that's when I had to.
(05:12):
I just remember that was when we started everything, right, Um,
so when did you? Were you aware of the British
version of The Office? You were before you were hired on?
You you do that show? Okay? And did you like it?
I loved it. I forget where we could see it,
but it came on the scene at the same time
(05:32):
it did, and it was these two new cutting edge
comedy shows. And The Office was such a big thing
because people were like, you're not gonna believe the show.
You're not going to believe it's an actual show and
not a documentary. So yes, I was aware of it okay,
But at that time, there was nothing on American television
that looked like that, not even close, you know, um,
nothing that looked like because everybody thought it was a documentary.
(05:55):
It was so subtly shot, and it was so subtly
conceived of the only close thing would have been I guess, um,
Larry Sanders, Larry Sanders. Yeah, and so how did you
how did you come on board? Probably NBC set me
up with a few other casting people to interview with
Greg and Ben and Terry over it. There a little
(06:16):
bungalow at Universal. So I went in thrilled, I got it,
you know, an interview for this job. And um, I
do remember saying to Phillis, this is a huge deal.
This could be a huge deal if I get this one. Um.
And it was a bunch of them at the table
and Greg was Greg quiet, and you know, so you
(06:37):
did Freaks and Geeks and we like the fact that
you found real people on Freaks and I'm imitating Greg
and Geeks and uh. After then again I had to
meet with Ben Silverman in his house up in Mulholland
Drive or something, and I remember it was during a
playoff game for the Red Sox and I was waiting out.
I'm a Red Sox fan, and I was waiting out
(06:58):
in my car to see who won the game. And
then I went in and realized he was also a
Red Sox fan. So we were joyous and I probably
got the job because of the Red Sox. Yeah. He
talked about Paul Gi and Madi at the time. For
Michael Scott, Yeah, okay, so that was the first name
that came up. I probably had more names when I
talked to Greg for the actual interview. Um, but I
(07:21):
remember Ben mentioning Paul Giamatti, and he may have also
mentioned Philip Symore Hoffman, but I for some reason, I
specifically remember him saying Paul May at the time when
movie stores wouldn't touch television, right, wouldn't touch it the
bottom of the barrel. Yeah, so you come in. So,
I mean, your list of stuff that you have worked
(07:42):
on is like crazy, um, starting with Family Ties, the
Best job Ever, Golden Girls, Fresh Prince Boy meets whirl Um,
and then there seemed to be like a shift with
Freaks and Geeks. I mean, Freaksing Geeks was kind of
the first cool show I worked on and sort of
non networking show, which is probably why it failed. But
(08:03):
definitely Judd Apatow and Paul fi changed the whole scene
in UM, the style of the comedy, the writing, the
not the sitcom rhythm, the reality rhythm, the non beautiful
people rhythm. With all due respect to you, Briant, but
(08:25):
completely the first time I'd ever done anything like that
because all the team shows at the time, the kids
had to be beautiful. Yeah. I had just finished a
pilot called Roswell High and every kid had to look
like the kids from um Dawson's Creek and it was
torture and every kid had to be beautiful and blah
blah blah blah. And we tested Heath Ledger and he
wasn't even cute enough to be on the show, according
(08:47):
to the head of Fox. So all the rejects from
that I gladly brought in for Freaks and Geeks because
they were so much more interesting and talented. And it
was great that Paul and Judd just wanted real kids, right,
But Greg had seen Freaks and Geeks. That was the
first thing he brought up. So Paul Feig, in this
New Yorker piece, said that you will be recognized as
(09:11):
having changed the face of comedy as much as any
comedy filmmaker. What what do you think he meant by that?
I think just bringing in um, real people who also
were talented and funny and unique. Yeah, brought their own
version of comedy too, whatever character it was. Plus, I
(09:31):
did start in comedy, and it was you know, the Family,
Ties and Benson. They were all sitcoms and you needed
I instantly started to learn all the comics out there,
and which meant you had to physically do the legwork
and go to the comedy store ten nights in a
row and go to the improv ten nights in a row.
UM comics not necessarily being the most together people, God
(09:53):
bless them, but right away hitting the ground running. I
brought in all the stand ups and stuff. For if
you watch Golden Girls, Ull occasionally see you know Don
Marere is serving Betty White or something. I was always
bringing in stand ups. It made sense to me, and
for me it was based in SNL Saturday Night Live
since the college, appreciating that new version of comedy, the real,
(10:17):
smart and still at the same time stupid version of
comedy in Second City SCTV. But stand ups was what
we had access to at that time going out and
doing the way, and they rarely got hired because their
God bless him, not skilled at auditioning. You know, you'd
bring a Knie Knee of Ardallos and Steve Carrell and
(10:39):
they were usually very over the top. Not until jud
and Paul came along did they think that was actually
a plus and they were correct interesting, So they would
have trouble because of that, oh I think, so yeah,
to get by studios and things. I remember, you know,
bringing people in like David's Bad and Rob Schneider and
Jim Carey and Dennis Leary and they never got hired.
(11:02):
Adam Sandler once got hired when he was probably twenty
first show I was doing, because the executive producer, Richie
rosen Stock, understood that his vibe was interesting and not
just being able to deliver a joke like um a
sitcom guy, right, And then that started to shift that
(11:23):
in the office with Judd and Paul in particular, I think,
and then your Adam McKay's came in and UM brought
in all the Will Ferrells and all that kind of thing.
It definitely was birthed way back when and prior to
when I was doing it with Judd too, I think, right,
I think that there was also kind of a change,
(11:46):
like you said, from sort of that traditional sitcom style
to more comedies with heart, I believe. So, yeah, yeah,
was there a different type of person you were looking
for for that the first sitcom stuff we did, it
was mostly finding someone who literally could do it, could
do sitcom joke delivery. That was the first thing I
(12:09):
had to say, could they read? Could they do the jokes?
But um, the writing I think matured a little bit too. Yeah,
but single camera comedy was not around, right, Yeah, so
that was part of it. Absolutely. Not having still took
a long time to catch on to most of us.
It was pretty obvious that's the easiest to write for
(12:29):
you don't have to put it into a template of
writing a joke. And that was a slow evolution, right.
Sports Night was the first good one and didn't even
stay on the air, and it was so much funnier
than a sitcom. Great, Yeah, did you work on Sports Night?
I did not, but I just remember thinking, wow, this
is great. There's no left track, blah blah blah blah. Right,
(12:50):
so it became that's so interesting that you were looking
for someone who could do it. Just do it. Yeah,
deliver the jokes. Deliver that joke so that it hit,
so the laugh track could play. Right. And somebody who
wasn't necessarily um you know, Jack Benny, somebody who also
could act, not that he couldn't. God bless him, right,
(13:14):
so um. Paul Rudd, in the same New Yorker article,
said that you have the ability to find people that
your heart can break for. Oh, that's very I didn't
read the article, believe it. I'm too shy to read that.
I get you. I've barely watched any but I am
very I I think I'm very empathic when it comes
(13:34):
to actors and comedy and thinking. Look at that kid
from Mclub and he'd be awesome. That kid has gotten
beat up so much in his life. He'd be awesome.
So I think, um, yes, that was a very good
way to put it. Very nice. It's a hard time
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mysterious assassination of the man once destined to be North
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interview top experts and investigate the rise and fall of
the Hermit Kingdom's one time air from his early promise
that he should have been the successor to the Deadly Palace,
(17:11):
entries a lot of clothing and dagger, you know, James
bog kind of stuff about Jim John to the power
struggles that ultimately spelled his doom in North Korea. It's business,
it's not personal. When somebody challenges you, that challenger must
be eliminated. Listen to Big Brother on the I Heart
(17:34):
Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts
coming February. So, how did you go about assembling your
(17:55):
list for the office? Well, uh, it was mostly leg
where auditioning, and well, we first had to go in
with a list. Nancy Perkins was the head of casting
at Universal, and we went in with a long list
of men and other names to remember and um, all
the people at the time, half of them wouldn't do
TV and some of them were not people who the
(18:15):
network would want. But um, a list of probably thirty
five names, and this is for just for Michael Scott
or for all the roles kind of kind of the
big ones. But um, those are mostly exercises. Lists are
really just exercises because you don't know anything until you
get out there and start making offers and start reading people.
But um, I I always like to cast non star people.
(18:39):
I think it pays off the most in the end
in terms of risk reward UM finding a unique voice exactly, yes,
and getting the people that I know, have known for
years can step it up and be really interesting and
really funny. Yeah. I had cast Rain before, I had
cast Jenna, before, i'd read Steve before I had had
(19:00):
the pleasure to cast him. But the people that we
read for all these roles were groundlings and UCB people
that um just did not get a break. So it
was really fun to put them together with terrifically beautiful,
subtle writing and everybody that was a little a little
more well received than some other pilots because it was
(19:24):
the Office and all those people were into the Office,
the British version of the Office. Um, everybody's just assumed
we'd get crucified. But we had great people coming anyway,
just happy to be doing the pilot. Right, So you
made your lists? Was there anyone you didn't know it
at all from the cast? I didn't know you. I
didn't know um Leslie, I didn't know Oscar and I
(19:46):
remember I had seen him in an episode of Reno
N one one, it was like, who's that freaking guy?
He's hilarious. Um, I didn't know John. I had just
met him on a general I did not know John
until he read John. Yeah, that's who I wondered me
and John. So I've heard And I didn't know this
right because I didn't test with the other thing the
testing processes. The uniqueness of Yes that was that the
(20:09):
first time you had ever done yes, and it was
it was a um sensible choice because normally you would
go in and test at a network with a bunch
of studio executives in the head of the network sitting
in the back of the room and you come in
and you're like, okay, be funny. That was the sitcom
way to do it. And it didn't matter the level
of subtlety. This one. We said, look at you're not
(20:30):
going to get what this person has to offer unless
you film it and see it what it's going to
look like on screen. So greg I was able to
talk them into that. So we did two days of testing,
two long days of mixing and matching actors and Ken
directing them and and Yes, it was the first time
that has happened, I believe, at least in my experience
(20:51):
with testing for a pilot, and that made sense because
of the format of the show, which hadn't been done
before either the documentary yeah, the documentary style, and I
think yes. Part of the auditions was we had one
one or two monologues that we let them pick from
that were all of our sides were from, mostly from
(21:11):
the pilot of the English Office, without being americanized too much,
so a lot of it sounded English coming out of
the American actor's mouths. But I remember the Gym side
saying do you like a drink? I remember thinking we
don't say that. Most of the actors said the same
thing to do you like a drink? Yeah. The process
do you remember it taking especially long or it took
(21:35):
the fall of two thousand three for casting? It was
very time consuming because we had to make DVDs. Sorry, um,
not DVDs. We didn't have DVDs then we had VCR.
We had half inch tapes that you had to copy
in real time to send to England. I remember doing that.
My whole Thanksgiving was making tapes which I still have
of the Gym's of the Michael Scott's of the Palms
(21:58):
for Ricky Gervais and Um, you know, you pressed tape
and you press play and then you had to copy
them in real time, so it was more time consuming
for everybody having to actually look at all the tapes
after getting them FedEx overnight. Um, how much was Ricky
You said you made tapes and sent them to London?
How much was Ricky did? Very much? So he didn't
(22:18):
win with me, that's for sure. I've never met the guy,
though I think he's genius in his golden globe stuff
is effing genius. Anyway, Um, I never met him at all,
but I know he weighed in heavily with um Greg
about casting choices. They wouldn't I'm sure if he didn't
like someone, they wouldn't have gone with them. So yes,
it took a little bit longer, Um, and we read
(22:39):
a lot of people, and I preread a lot of people.
Now pickings are slimmer. You know, there's so many shows
out there that you start with a hundred names and
ten of them are available. Right then, it was more
a little more freedom. Also, everybody is onto now hiring
people from the Growlings and UCB and so that's who
they bring in first for comedy. You know, one of
(23:00):
my shameful things was I pre read Christin Wig and
didn't even bring her back for Greg. I'm Kristen. I apologize,
but um, I don't recall why. But that's funny. And
then when I went back and looked at our audition,
she was terrific. She was Kristin Wig doing it, and
she was terrific. She was a groundling at the time,
and I didn't. I just for some reason didn't bring
her back for Greg. I think maybe Jenna. Jenna was
(23:22):
the biggest shoe in. I think from the start of
reading she was the first woman to read PAM. I
remember Terry Weinberg saying I could watch you all day,
and um, we had you know, we tested other PAMs,
but I think Jenna was sort of the high bar
that we set. And how much did um the chemistry
between Jenna and John then impact John. I was not
(23:48):
in the room at the time when they were reading together,
but I assume it completely impacted John because Jenna John
was effortless, effortless, and he had mostly just I had
seen him in a commercial where he got his eyebrows
shape or something, and I remember casting director New York
Bonnie Finnigan saying, this kid, John Krasinski is effortlessly funny.
You won't believe how he's funny. He just talks, and
(24:09):
he's funny. Jenna, though lower in energy. I'm sure if
you asked John that question he would say it hugely
impacted his performance because in his first audition he was
a little more strident. Jenna was always very low key interesting. Um,
what were you looking for between? But we haven't talked
about Rain. Oh yeah, yeah, Dwight and and Jim. Yeah,
(24:34):
were there specific things that you were looking for? Rain
is so odd that would have been one. Yeah, you
knew that Dwight had to be odd, just an oddball
and a nerd and sort of annoying. And Jim had
to be a little cute, a little appealing. Um, not
that Rain is not. He's very appealing. But m Rain
(24:56):
just a comedy genius always. He must have loved the
first He mean, he first read for Michael Scott, and
I think I think he requested that through his agent
that could he also read from Michael Scott or maybe
I just brought him in for Michael Scott. I don't
recall because he did read for both at the time. Um,
he was the first person to read period. But I
(25:16):
believe we mostly thought he was going to be Dwight
and he also wanted to read for Michael Scott. He
probably could have worked as Michael Scott too. God, we
read a lot of good people that in some version
would have worked. You know, all these people. You know,
we rejected a lot of great people for the right. Yeah.
I remember Louis c. K wasn't available at the time,
and that was a bummer because he would have been
a he had to deal at CBS. He always had
(25:37):
a deal at CBS. But of all the people, I
wanted to bring it, and Paul Gimaty just said no
right off the bat because it was a TV show,
I believe. Then we went to Philip Symore Hoffman, the
late great Philip sy Moore Hoffman, and he said no
as well because it was TV. I'm oh, yeah, And
it's funny because that's all Paul does now, right. And
(25:58):
the great thing is I started out I have nothing
makes me happier to see that TV is the new
film nothing, because so many people rejected all the TV
I worked on for twenty years, because it was TV.
It was like, I don't want to do TV. And
stunt casting, as they call it now, was not really
a thing when I started. My boss, Judith Wiener, used
to call it love boat casting when they made us
(26:19):
put a big name in a role that made no sense.
You know, Stevie Wonders Limo breaks down outside of the
Huxtable's house and he he comes in. And so I
started without doing that. Um. And also for some reason,
I just thought I was supposed to find new people,
and maybe that that must have come from Judith. Go
out there and find new funny voices. UM. So you
(26:42):
like casting unknowns and essentially everybody unknown in this Do
you remember was there pushback from the network about that? Uh?
Sometimes push back from the people in the room, Remember
Greg and I really Patton Oswalt for Michael Scott and
some of the people in the room. No, he gave,
(27:06):
of course a fantastic reading, and Patton was a stand
up at the time. Um. Mostly before they got to
the network, it was pushed packed from various people in
the room. The network then was not as intrusive as
they are now. They don't see every single goddamn audition
before they approve who's going to test? We just told
them who were testing. We made the test option deal
(27:26):
and showed them the tests. It wasn't everybody at a
certain level getting approval after approval after approval of who
can even go near besides, you know that that exist.
You can tell him sarcasm that exists? Now, Yeah? Right?
How much discussion was there or were you aware of
(27:48):
that writers were going to end up being actors? I
think at the beginning, b J came in, Greg said
there's a couple of guys I want to bring in
to see if they'll work as actors too, And Mandy
didn't have to read as far as I know, But
b J came in, and BJ was hired as an actor.
He was hired as an actor. But also Greg was
cognizant effect that he was a writer as well. Greg
was up front about that right away. I didn't know
(28:09):
Paul or anything at the time. PAULI burstin or and
Greg had us bringing a lot of his friends who
wrote for The Simpsons, who were awesomely weird and great,
who I didn't know at all. I didn't know. I
didn't It was another the first time I realized writers
were just as funny as actors when it came to
this kind of comedy, if not more. Um, some of
those people, god bless him, were too weird for viewing. Um.
(28:35):
But um, he totally was upfront about having trying to
get some people who could write end. Now there's a
little funky thing about trying to do that. Now there's
unions who get find you or something if you do that.
But then it was fine. Um. Who was the first
person cast? Was it? Jenna? No? I think they all came.
I think we all went to the network and looked
(28:56):
at tapes, and I think Greg he showed the the
cast he wanted and that's who was approved. And that
was cool. Kevin Riley really got it. I have to
tell you, he really got it. Yeah, that's not commonly
the case. What what did Kevin get? He got the
vibe of the office. Kevin Riley really, Uh, you could
(29:20):
tell loved the genre and the show and he got it. Yes,
he did. He got it right away. And whoever hired
Greg Daniels got it too. Who would have that been?
Kevin Ben Ben Silverman? Completely? Yeah. Hi, I'm Glory Adam,
(29:48):
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(32:25):
So the rest of the ensemble like Angela. Yes, Angela
had had read for Pam, right, Angela read for Pam
and then Angela I sort of knew upfront that she
was related to Greg somehow, so I said, I remember
Phillis and I saying this too, Greg, Okay, what we
think we should do is pretend we don't know she's
related to you, and we'll say she's our choice. And
(32:46):
she was great for that that role. I don't know
if that role was based on a person in the
British show. I don't think it was Um. So we
had a little plan with Greg. We're gonna push for
Angela because we know she's right, but we're going to
pretend we don't know she's related to And then when
we were in the room, Greg for some reason objected
and Phillis and I were like kicking each other under
the table. Jesus, but somehow, I don't know what happened there,
(33:10):
but we got Angela. So maybe that was his um
reverse psychology or something. But we had old Um an
Oscar similar. Oh, so you didn't know Oscar before. I
didn't know Oscar. I had seen him like the week
before the session one, and he was so good and
I was so embarrassed I didn't know him. Most everybody
read for Stanley. I think I think there were two parts. Basically, Yes,
(33:36):
the genius casting of Greg was seeing how Mulaura would
have worked because not necessarily a huge comedy person. That
was the year when people um wanted Helen Hunt or
somebody like that. So, um, these lovely women who could
also be funny. And did you know m Laura before? Oh? Yes,
she was a child actor. Knew her. She was a
(33:58):
child actress, right, and gorgeous too. It was like, okay,
well we'll still bring her in because he is the
thing about that people have to be real and not
necessarily high fashion models. But um, what is this? Was
this a true? Um? I remember hearing this at some point.
Was there Scranton pretty or Scranton Hot? Sorry, Scranton hot.
(34:21):
Scranton Hot sounds more familiar. It's like when we did
Veep it was like they have to be Washington d
c attractive, not real attractive, and they had to look
basically dumpy. Yes, that was definitely a thing. Scranton hot. Yeah.
Do you remember the casting process for Amy Adams oh yes, um,
(34:42):
Amy Heckerling. Was she the director? Amy Heckerling. Um. I
thought she looked too much like Jenna, so we didn't
hire her. We hired somebody else at first, and then um,
somebody else in the room wanted to go for stunt
casting and I just did not want to do that.
I was the whole time. I think I was hated
(35:02):
because I would not shut up about how it's a documentary.
Suddenly Matt Damon isn't going to show up in Scranton,
so that drove me crazy. Um was Greg on board
with that? Oh, for the most part, Greg was on
board with it. But as the network started getting more
involved with sweep sweak and stuff, they started saying, you
have to use Ben affleck or blah blah blah blah,
and I was everybody would say that. I was always
(35:24):
against that. I never agreed with that at all. It
just to me it broke the DNA of the show.
So we never did it much at all. Right, the
Super Bowl episode that pissed me off, Yes, but they
cleverly thought of a little way to put Jack Black
in there. He was on a YouTube thing or something.
It was. Um. I never normally would talk back to
a studio executive. But I believe I did it on
a conference call. I would never normally ever do that
(35:47):
and say something was a bad idea because they were
mentioning Brad Pitt and George Clooney was like, what are
you Evan kidding me? They're going to show up in Scranton.
So I was vociferous about not not wanting that right.
So after the pilot, your job gets much easier through
that first season, second season, yes, yeah, there weren't that
(36:07):
many people that came on. But I wanted to talk
just a little bit about how Ed Helms and Rashida
were brought in. Where they brought in? Was that through
you or no? I think, I think, I don't. I
don't know. Fully, you'd have to ask Greg how Ed
Helms came into the picture. It may have been through NBC.
(36:27):
Rashida auditioned and we had to audition many, many women
for that part, and Rashida got that, Um she's the
most gorgeous woman in the world, so she had to
play it down. But her chemistry with John was great.
They were friends at the time, and we read many
other very good women at the time. But that was
audition Ed, I think came in through NBC and Greg.
(36:50):
I believe that was created for him. He was freaking great.
I mean Ed had just come off The Daily Show,
which pretty much produced every jure funny person on the
Office and thereafter everything else Yeah except me, except for
Brian and Phillis. Yeah. Um, when Steve left. Thoughts, what
(37:13):
did you think was the ended? Yes? Totally I thought
it should have ended though I had always loved people
like Katherine Take these people that Greg was aware of
that could do great things on the show. I have
no idea how they came up with James Spader or so. Yes,
I thought the show should have ended, except for the
(37:33):
actor's sake. I did not want it. Was like, no,
we gotta keep Phillis employed. They all have to keep
the job. Um, And I thought it made sense it
could go on. But I just thought Steve was so
great and it was seven years. It would be tough.
But it also made sense that Ed was the logical
choice to be bumped up. I think so. Some people
(37:54):
who have come in have talked about being disappointed that
the network didn't trust the existing ensemble enough and felt
like they needed to bring in I'm sure that passed
me off to. Yeah, I would not privy to those
those things about Spader, and I believe many of us thought,
what do you mean you can't make it one of
(38:16):
these guys on the show. Yes, I'm sure that was
the case. Right. Where do you think the ensemble of
the Office fits in television history? Good? Okay, right up
there with Mary Tyler Moore and Lou Grant, which were
genius and wonderful right up there, I think, and like
news Radio and amazing ensemble, Seinfeld, amazing ensemble. Up there
(38:40):
was all of them. Yeah. What do you think made
it special? The people? The people and number one the writing,
Ricky Gervais, the style. Yeah, you give Ricky credit completely. Yeah,
that was like an Adam bomb of comedy. When the
British Office hit the scene, it was like an Adam
(39:00):
bomb of comedy. So yes, I would see Ricky Gervais
and Stephen Merchant right where I am today, and my
entire life is due to you agreeing to see me. Oh,
thank you. I'm sure I looked at your head shot
(39:21):
and thought, yeah, he'd be good. He looks like a
real dude, right, and Phillis and everybody on the show.
How you know who were unknowns. How does that make
you feel? Terrific? Makes me feel happy and it it
is the reward I get in this career and why
(39:42):
I think why many casting people like what we do
because we get to assist people in um getting gigs.
But it's more than that. I mean. I remember coming
back and after getting the office, saying to feel as
this could be the most important job I've ever had.
And I'm not kidding. I said that to her, thinking
selfishly but having no idea. It's the most important job
(40:02):
I've ever had because Phillis life's changed. It changed her life.
What's crazy to me is that you had the same
reaction that I had. Oh my god, I got the office. Yeah,
oh you had that too, of course, yes, when I
got by you, I love that. I remember when Jennet
(40:25):
we cast Jenna. I remember calling her agent at the time,
Michael Green, and I got emotional because we don't get
to tell the actors, but we get to tell the agents.
And I remember saying to Michael exactly this, I'm calling
to tell you that Jenna Fisher got the office, and
somehow there was silence on the phone. I was about
to cry. I think Michael was about to cry. Um,
(40:46):
but I was always happy to say. Sometimes business affairs
beat you to the punch and they tell the agent.
I always say, please, after all this, can we at
least tell the agent that they got the job right? Um?
Why do you think that? You know? So Rain and
I talk and and I said to him, this is
close to a year ago now. I said, I think
(41:06):
that the show is bigger now than it was when
we were on NBC on Thursday nights. And he said, oh,
it's a factor of yeah, by a factor of a hundred.
Why why do you think? I don't know. I mean,
I think the real people in it, but I think everybody.
(41:27):
Everybody can relate to working in an office like that.
You can insert yourself into that show very easily. And
you love the actors, You love you guys, and the
writing is brilliant and it's very subtly funny. But it
must there must be some comfort in the office. See
I find comfort in Downtown Abbey. So I watched them
a million times, but there must be great comfort. And
(41:48):
what I also learned recently, kids love the Office. Now
I love it. Kids who were nine or ten, It
wasn't a show that was made for them. Really no,
oh god no, And they're being probably a little more
sophisticated these days. But I think there must be some
measure of comfort, especially in today's world, where, um, things
that happened to you happened on the office, same way
(42:09):
as in Seinfeld, things that happened to you happened in
the office, and you have you had a jerk in
your office. And yes, yes, um, I can't rewatch The Office.
It makes me too sad because I had so much
fun on it. It just makes me too melancholy. I
cannot watch it. But then again, I can't even watch
Family Ties. I feel, oh god, that was so much fun.
I can't deal with it. But what I'll zoom in
(42:31):
on is who came in for certain roles. What does
the office mean to you? Just very proud I was
able to work on it. That's what it means to me.
I mean very proud. I'm proud, proud, proud to say
I I oh, I worked on the office. Awesome. Yeah, Alison,
thank you so freaking much, thank you, thank you. That's all, folks,
(43:07):
Actually that is not all, because you are going to
be hearing some more from Alison next week. When we
interview Phillis Smith a k A. Phyllis laughing fans, Allison
makes a surprise appearance and I cannot wait for you
to hear. It makes me emotional thinking about him until then.
(43:28):
Huge thank you to Allison for coming in and chatting
with me. Allison, I know you do not love being
in the spotlight, but you were amazing to all of
you listeners. Have a fantastic week. I will see you
next time on The Office Deep Dive. The Office Deep
(43:52):
Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner,
alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
(44:13):
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by seth Olandsky. Hey, it's de Lieva. I'm here to
(44:38):
tell you about my brand new podcast, Delifa at your Service.
I'll be sitting down with the world's most inspiring minds
to uncover what makes them take and what they've learned
from the obstacles life has thrown at them, including Sir
Elton John. After a lot of upsets, a lot of disappointments,
a lot of betrayals, It's turned out to be the
most wonderful life right now that I've could ever imagined.
(44:58):
Listen to do Alifa your service on the I Heart
radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves
around underworld and criminals and entertainers to victims, crime and
law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game Gainst.
The Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify from motilicit activities. We just
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discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because at
the wall, if you played Gainst games, you are ultimately
rewarded with Gainster prizes. Our Heart radios number one for podcasts,
but don't take our award for it. Find Against the
Chronicles podcast and my Heart radio app or wherever you
get your podcast. Hi guys, I'm Jade Ivan and I
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host tell me about It, the podcast that is the
antithesis of a success story podcast, where we leave things
like girl Boss Energy and Lucky breaks at the door
and instead celebrate and commiserate about all the things that
make us human. This is the podcast manifestation of those
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We have all kinds of women from all different walks
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
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