Ben Silverman

Sure, they made it look easy, but executive producer Ben Silverman knows the true struggles behind bringing The Office to American television. Ben tells the tale of his decision to adapt the British sitcom and the meeting with Ricky Gervais that followed only 24 hours later, and the time he found out about the show’s second season pickup … while watching Brad Pitt sleep on an airplane.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it's De Liefer. I'm here to tell you about
my brand new podcast, de Relief at Your Service. I'll
be sitting down with the world's most inspiring minds to
uncover what makes them tick and what they've learned from
the obstacles life has thrown at them, including Sir Elton John.
After a lot of upsets, a lot of disappointments, a
lot of betrayals, It's turned out to be the most
wonderful life right now that I've could have ever imagined.

(00:23):
Listen to do Relief at your Service on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.
We've all felt left out, and for people who moved
to this country, that feeling lasts more than a moment.
We can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us.
Data work brought to you by the AD Council. Did

(00:46):
you know that on the day Dr King was shot,
the all black security detail normally assigned to him was
called off. They're the ones who would not allow him
to stay at any hotel with balconies. Most did you
ever asked what this was all about? This is the

(01:06):
MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
get your podcasts. I am Ben Silverman, Executive producer of
the Office. Hello, and welcome to another episode of The

(01:36):
Office Deep Dive. I am your host Brian Baumgartner. Today
I am bringing you someone truly special, and I mean
special in the best of ways. Ben Silverman. He is
the person who discovered the British version of the show.
He approached Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant about bringing the

(01:59):
show to the United States. He eventually partnered with Greg Daniels,
who he chose to adapt it. So Ben's role was crucial.
More importantly, I think he appeared in season nine as
Jim's athlete coworker Isaac. So I mean there was that too,

(02:21):
um All joking aside. Ben brings incredible insights into the
business side of things, the biz, if you will, and
he has amazing stories about the fights that were going
on with the network behind the scenes while the rest
of us were just acting like idiots on set. Anyhow,
Ben has become such a dear friend to me, and

(02:44):
even after all of these years, I still learn so
much every time I talked to him. I am sure
that you will as well. So here he is Ben Silverman,
Bubba lunch squeak. I love it. Bubble and squeak on

(03:06):
bubble and squeaker cookie every more left over from the
nut before anybody. I don't sound very good. I think

(03:29):
you sound really sexy. Oh God, listen to you. How
are you? I'm good, great to see you. Let me kiss.
How's your locks? You just get a little locked and
want some onion? And I'm good. I can practically tasting
it over here. I feel munk. Don't take one more
but your volumes on the left. Is everyone ready for

(03:53):
us in the back? Yeah? And the only reason we
haven't already begun the interview in a casual fashion, it's
because you were eating a bagel. Thank you for that.
All right, I'm about to start. Let me chew it out.
I mean, it was fun to go back because as
well as we know each other, there's so much of
your like PREMI history, like I think that your life

(04:17):
didn't start until you met me, but you actually did
things before, you know, before I came into your life.
So you were the youngest division head in charge of
international packaging at William Morris. That makes you like what
twelve years old At the time, I was twenty five
years old, and I got named into that position. And

(04:40):
around twenty seven or twenty eight, and I was in
London working for William Morris four years from I left
there in ninety nine to go to New York. Okay,
so then you're in New York. How did you discover
the UK version of the Office? I was at my
friend Henrietta Conrad's house. I was not an agent. I

(05:03):
had left being an agent where I had found everything
from Who Wants to Be a Millionaire to Cracker Queer
as Folk and had translated them into America as the
packaging agent. And I left back by Barry Diller to
start my own company called Reveli. And I had just

(05:25):
begun REVELI and went over to London for a work
trip and was staying at my friend Henrietta Conrad's house,
and we were watching television and I was literally, I think,
flipping the channels and I came on to the Office.
This is episode one or two of the UK season

(05:49):
one Office, and I was watching it first wondering if
it was for comedy or for real, then quickly recognized
what it was doing. Single camera, no laugh track, FO
documentary with people who felt real, and I kept watching

(06:12):
and started laughing and it's really hard to make me laugh.
And I was falling in love with the show right
in that moment. And then I started thinking about it
the next day in the morning and I asked Henrietta
if she knew Ricky Gervais and she said no, but
her friend Dan Maser did, and we organized and had

(06:36):
dinner with Dan that night. Wait, so, twenty four hours
after you after you see it for the first time
on television, you're having dinner with someone who could get
you to Ricky. Yes. And additionally I also wanted to
be with Dan. I mean, Dan was Sasha Baron Cohen's

(06:57):
partner and Alag was Television are in the UK. But
so I'm with Dan Maser. Dan is lovely, brilliant and
of his own right, and I start peppering the questions
about the office and he gives me Ricky's cell phone number.

(07:19):
And so the next day I call Ricky around eleven
o'clock in the morning and introduced myself on the phone
and say I'd love to meet you. Are you in town?
He goes, actually, yes, come meet me in soho at
the Starbucks this afternoon, and I coordinate a meeting, and

(07:42):
I spent an hour with Ricky talking about the office,
and very quickly we got along because we both love television,
and he truly was making me laugh even in those
moments over over a coffee at the Starbucks. And so

(08:03):
he clearly had chosen the location though, of the Starbucks,
because he then says to me, Oh, good news, my
agent is right around the corner. Let's go meet with him.
So it was almost like he met me confirmed I
was okay. The conversation was interesting, and then we walked
over and met with Duncan Hayes, his agent, and then

(08:25):
Duncan and I began a three month process two secure
the rights. And it wasn't until Duncan help me unlock
it all that I realized both the BBC and Ricky
controlled the rights. I needed Ricky and Stephen Merchant to

(08:47):
actually get it done and agitate to get it done.
Otherwise it was never going to get done, got it?
So you you deal with the BBC, and you deal
with Ricky and Stephen. You have this partnership in place,
and where do you go into the United States? I
immediately start making phone calls and saying are you aware
of the show the Office? Do you know what it is?

(09:08):
Do you think it would interest you? And this is
probably now a month after or so, and the show
has started to gain buzz. It's aired its cycle in
the UK, it's initial six episodes, and so it has
an awareness. Now it's a thing, right, not a big thing,
but to anyone in England it's in the television industry,

(09:29):
you're aware. So I'm I'm back at the States reaching
out to people. One of the incredible things about Hollywood,
which was a huge advantage for me to do well,
was that people in Hollywood are pretty insular and don't
like to travel. They think you need a passport to

(09:50):
get from Burbank to Beverly Hills. That is travel. And
so many people at this time in American television had
no clue or connection about anything beyond l A and
only one exact at the time knew what I was

(10:12):
talking about was a guy named Nick Grad who worked
at f X, and he knew what the show was
and he loved the show. Kevin Riley was running X
at the time. I had gone to Less Moon Vest
he passed. I went to Gayl Berman. She passed immediately,
didn't get it. HBO said, we'll never do a remake.

(10:38):
They clearly have altered that thinking, but at the time
they were like, we won't do a format, and Showtime
wasn't doing shows like this. I didn't go to ABC
because I just knew it wasn't ABC. And I was
starting to tease NBC with it, and Kevin then got

(11:03):
named the head of NBC and I bring it up
to him and I say, would you want to do
it here? And Kevin says absolutely, Little did he know
he was actually my only buyer by that time, he
was the only one who everyone else love television. Everyone
else had passed, now are you? And Kevin's like, let's

(11:26):
do it, Like, let's let's make it. You know, I'll
give you a pilot movement. And then Kevin's boss, though,
who was very involved in his life, Jeff Sucker, didn't
really like it that much because it was his single
camera no last documentary. I got it like it was
a hard pill for them to swallow. But I was

(11:46):
also like, they didn't want the game show back in primetime.
When I brought Millionaire, everyone thought that was cheesy. Daytime
I'm like, no, no, this will change TV. You know,
you gotta look at it from how to push the
genre and push the envelope so that you can expand
versus you know, always play for defense, right, And I

(12:07):
was like, this is another level and this is potentially
transformative of television and with that can come great, great reward.
You saw that at the time that it could be transformative. Yes,
you know, you have those moments. At that moment, I
don't know, like everything was possible, Like I really saw
the transformation of television before it was happening. Wow. Okay,

(12:30):
So you get a pilot commitment from Kevin at NBC,
So now you have to put a creative team together.
So where do you start looking at that moment? So
William Morris represented the BBC because I had signed the
BBC to William Morris of when I was there of
course as an agent before I became a producer, and

(12:54):
I had done the deal with them, so they were
part of the package, so to speak. But they didn't
really have many good writers for the show at the
at the time. Ari Emmanuel had the good writers. So
I called him up and they said, Ari, I have
the office. It's incredible. I will only meet with your guys,

(13:16):
but when you set me up with your best guys,
I have to organize for Ricky and Stephen some meetings
for them to help determine who we're all going to
partner with and choose. And Ari was like, absolutely, let's
do it, you know, and he set me up with
a number of meetings. And I immediately connected with Greg.

(13:41):
You know, I just felt his genius and his thoughtfulness
and real vigorous approach. And he also was so anxious
about doing it. He kept saying to me, well, people
love the British one. You know what, I can't make
it better, you know, I'm I don't want to be
compared to it. And I had done a show just

(14:03):
had aired while I was working on this, called Coupling,
which was an adaptation of a British show much more
in the kind of Friends vernacular. It was almost as
if Friends had been adapted adapted to the UK back, yeah, exactly,
And that show had been perceived really poorly in America,

(14:25):
and Greg was worried that was going to happen, and
all the comparisons, so the halo of Coupling's failure was
impinging his ability to kind of wrap his arms around
the office, and the preconceived notion of everyone's saying why
would you adapt that it's hallowed ground, etcetera, etcetera. So

(14:48):
then I go to having to defend wanting to remake
this great work. And I was explaining to Greg because
he was who I now really wanted to do it,
and he suddenly was getting some cold feet based on
the concern of adapting something so so now like critically beloved.

(15:12):
And I said, no one in America has seen this one.
It's too dark, too narrow, and not going to play
to a wide American audience unless we do a more
optimistic adaptation, informed by your vision and your ownership of
the world. And there are millions of great books that

(15:34):
are adapted all the time. Do you want to adapt
the worst piece of ship? Are you trying to adapt
a Pulitzer Prize winning novel? And the correlation between a
da Vinci code and a da Vinci code is much
higher then not, you know. And so having you like
explain the history of expanding I p that was successful

(15:55):
was rather frustrating, and I kind of was thrown by today.
Now everyone if something's great, they want to remake it,
you know, it's totally different. So I go through all
this work, and not only that, I then I have
Ricky and Stephen come over to l A to my
office on the Universal lot of the time in our

(16:16):
little bungalows, and I have them in the office and
we're going through the meetings and at the end they
they're like, yes, you know, Greg Daniels is great. And
then from there I then have to get NBC to
sign off, and Kevin says, has Greg done any live

(16:37):
action stuff? You know, he's great in animation, but who
else he got? And I'm kind of like, well, he's
who we got. He's really good, and Ricky and Stephen
like him, and so Kevin said, okay, let's meet and
talk and immediately understood and connected with Grey on him

(17:01):
adapting it. And then within that meeting even it immediately
turns to casting because that is such a key sitting
across from the beloved Kevin um, that is such a
key to the show's architecture, which also, I mean, telling
the story just reminds you how many millions of elements

(17:24):
have to come together to create any thing meaningful or successful. Right,
So who who Who's discussed in that meeting. Me right,
it's all about Brian Baumgartner. Alright, now, so in in
the meeting, we're just talking about archetypes and whether we
cast famous people are unknowns to play with the faux documentary.

(17:46):
Did you have an opinion about keeping the integrity? I
just wanted it right, But I knew that the characters
and who we cast had to be real and not
too pretty. And that was another leap of faith from
the podcast network because everything at the time was friends, right,
everybody looked a certain way. It was not just friends,

(18:06):
it was friends and Baywatch and it was like it
was friends and it was friends and bathing suits. That
was like, that was the landscape of TV and that
moment and heading on a town where spiral of beauty
and superficiality at that time, and so talking about those actors,

(18:28):
we immediately brought on Alison Jones to be our casting partner.
We loved what she had done. And Judd Apatao and
his world and model was kind of the one other
framework we were looking at as we were building out
the show and the actors he was casting and the

(18:52):
stories he was writing in the comedy he was creating
had a similar energy and feel in a sense discovery.
The other thing that we talked about with Kevin and
that Greg agreed with me on is one of the
things that television used to do incredibly well and still
does do, but less people give it the opportunity to

(19:13):
is create stars. It's a place you have someone in
your living room or in your bedroom and you're watching
and connecting with them every week, and you can fall
in love with them and in a way you want
to have discovered them. It's not just a movie idol
coming into your kitchen. There's like this sense of ownership.
I see it when I walk around with you. Obviously

(19:33):
your characters beloved, Brian, but you know, the way people
treat a television star who's kind of grown up with
them is so familial, totally and natural. So that was
part of what also was the pitch to the office,
like we can create those stars here right because it's
it is different than, you know, than film stars, because

(19:55):
people are watching you in their bedrooms. They're watching you,
they're not to and they're not high on a huge billboard. Absolutely, um,
what do you remember about the casting? So so we
brought on Alison Jones and we opened up in our bungalow,
turned our conference room into a casting room, and we

(20:18):
began that process. Our immediate shortlist for the actor lead
and lobby by him was Bob oden Kirk to play
the Michael Scott character. And we were into him for it.
It was a real thing, but we weren't fully there.
And then we started casting. We and we found started

(20:40):
collecting talent. Krasinski we found on a tape out of
New York. I think he had literally just graduated Brown
and characters like yours and your arrival into the show,
and Fullness and Leslie and you know, all these wonderful
character actors, Craig Robinson, you know, just all these brilliant people.

(21:03):
And obviously there's Jenna Fisher. Jenna had such a accessible
sweetness and sadness to her. And I think of it.
I mean, I don't know how old she was at
the time or John, but they felt like children, you know,

(21:23):
they felt like kids. I was a kid, but they
were younger than me. I mean I was only thirty
at the time and they must have been twenty, you know,
So it was like, really, you really felt all this
innocence and warmth and life coming through them, and then
obviously we all grew up together. Okay, so we we

(21:44):
still don't have We still don't have Michael Scott. I
am panicking and I get a call from Stacy Snyder,
who was head of Universal Pictures at the time, and
Stacy calls me up on the lot and says, then,
I love the Office and she always would talk to
me about it. It's so brilliant, it's so awesome. And

(22:08):
she said that she absolutely loved it, and she had
an idea for me. What about Steve Carrell for the lead?
And she said, have you seen Bruce Almighty? Watch him
be the anchorman and do this fifteen minute thing during

(22:28):
the show. It is the most brilliant comedic toward a
force I've seen. And we're developing a movie for him,
forty year old virgin and I think he's going to
be a major star. I had seen Brucel Mindy, it
was great. I knew exactly what she was talking about.
So I start to educate Greg, and Greg goes, yes,

(22:49):
I know Steve Carrell. He's on TV. He's got he's
got a series Come to Papa, which he was like
the fourth lead of a short lived NBC Sitcom and
I call Kevin Riley and I'm like, you've got this
guy in your show, but he has to be our guy.
And he goes, you didn't hear from me, But I
don't think coming to Papa will come back. But I

(23:12):
can't tell anyone. So he told you that at the time. Yeah,
he basically let me know, but no one else kind
of knew. It was only like Kevin and I who knew.
And it was very stressful, unbelievable. So how did you
decide on Ken Kappas? So? Ken forget who recommended him

(23:34):
to us, But he had done the Bernie Max Bernie
Max Show and in the Middle he had a good
reputation and Malcolm in the Middle had a lot of
the energy. Stylistically, we were going for it, but I
still was worried that we didn't have enough of the
reality show architecture and how we were going to produce it.

(23:56):
And so I introduced Greg to rand Line Horn because
Randall he had come out of Mark Burnett's camp and
I had hired him for other shows or worked with
him on on other reality shows, and I knew we
needed somebody from that world stylistically to shoot in that way,

(24:17):
but also so that we wouldn't set everything up as
slowly as traditional scripted comedy was produced. And Randall ended
up staying with us for five years. But he helped
four Jar style and it was an essential element. So
putting together Greg Daniels, Ken Coffice, Randall, line Horn, getting

(24:42):
that cast together, and now we got to shoot a pilot.
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(27:50):
How much of the pilot were you around? I was
around for the whole pilot right. What do you any
anything specifically you remember about the shooting of that once
the team was assembled. I remember finding elements of it
really funny and believing wholeheartedly in the cast. I think
the storyline we chose ended up being not necessarily the

(28:12):
best one to set it up all. I remember, Visa
the the decision to go with the underlying pilot script
is we had spent so much time with Ricky and Stephen,
and had studied with them in the UK at the
Groucho Club for two days. Because I remember us going
over and and spending time with them as they downloaded

(28:34):
this about all things British Office. We not only fell
in love with them, we fell in love with the
British show. So I think we thought it's brilliant. Let's
stick with that brilliance. And that was our initial feeling,
was to respect the underlying almost too much and not
allow our ability to breathe the air into it we

(28:57):
needed to do for the American out of Station maybe,
but I think ultimately every pilot has its problems, right
because you're trying to set up so much. But what
that pilot did was set up that a documentary crew
is coming in to film the employees at this paper company,
and ultimately, in order to start there and to end

(29:20):
where we did with the documentary coming out and everybody
seeing themselves on camera having been followed for nine years,
it had to start there. Now. How it was written
or if it, you know, directly translated from from the
British version, I don't know, But don't you think that's important?
I like a set up. I think cinematically, most movies

(29:42):
you get the bill to get to the finale. In television,
there's always a debate do you enter a series midswing
or do you started off with a inception story, and
so I agree with you in that set up, but
I feel like we could have woven in a little
bit more of what is specific to Scranton in America

(30:04):
into those characters. If you end up discovering what the
actors enjoy, play too and become as you know them
over nine years and two hundred plus episodes, and so
the writing becomes easier and better, and the performances become
more in tune and character based, and that takes time,

(30:25):
and it's part of what's great about the new wave
of television is the straight two series and putting them
all out so that they have a chance to breathe
and be discovered. At that time, you didn't have that luxury.
This was a day and time when the heads of
the networks read the ratings at like four in the
morning of what happened the night before, and I had

(30:47):
a phone number in my phone as an actor, and
I would give the weekly reports on Friday morning at
like eight am. I would be in the makeup trailer,
going okay, four point seven last night, guys, And that
puts the blah blah blah so exactly exactly that process,
and that was reactive programming. Decisions were definitely fear invoking.

(31:11):
And then we launched the show. When we finally got
a series picked up off the pilot, it was for
five more episodes. It's crazy what we got a six
episode run that didn't happen. That is total. We're only
doing this because you're torturing us to do it. That
is not we We wholeheartedly believe in your show. But

(31:36):
they then put us on after The Apprentice, which was
very strange at the time. We aired later than normal
because they thought the Apprentice, set in a workplace environment,
was like the right match for the show. Did you agree.
I like that the Apprentice had a larger circulation of audience,

(31:57):
and The Apprentice, actually, like all of them BC shows,
had a slightly higher concentration of urban dwelling fans. It
was always the history of NBC versus like the history
of CBS, which had been traditionally a little more role,
which is probably why you got Dukes of Hazard on
one and Hell Street Blues on the other, which only

(32:20):
reinforced it. But I kind of thought the Apprentice maybe
was a good leading because there wasn't a lot else
on the network to draw from. So we launched out
of that and we did well in the beginning, but
then we started to go down every week for the
whole six episode run. Okay, so going back a little bit,

(32:42):
but we shoot the pilot. You know what was going
on behind the scenes from your perspective and dealing with
a network to try to get a pickup for the show, Well,
I I was doing everything I could to get it
picked up, and I was begging, borrowing, and stealing and
literally walking the hallways of NBC. Could you any executive
there to support the show? And I'm getting resistance. I'm

(33:05):
getting it's a small show, it's a quirky show. It
tested horribly, and I'm able to get some creative help.
I work with a guy named Bill Carter who's at
the New York Times, and Bill and I had grown
to know each other, and he had featured me in
a couple other spots, and he was a fan of
the office and was aware very early on that I

(33:26):
was working on it and I was personally excited about it,
and I knew he liked it, and so he became
somebody inside the press corps who was willing to champion it,
and that became a valuable asset for us as we
went about trying to get this quirky comedy, this unique
peace picked up. So how did you find out that

(33:49):
NBC was going to order more show? So I get
an invitation from my friend David benny Off, the co
creator of Game of Thrones, George Martin and Dan Wise,
and he has written Troy, the Brad Pitt starring film
Eric Banna Brad Pitt and Troy is going to premiere

(34:10):
at the can Film Festival and would I want to
be his guest because his wife, now Amanda Pete girlfriend
I believe at the time maybe yeah, girlfriend at the
time is unable to attend with him. And I immediately
say of course, and I am so excited about it.
And then he adds another element, which is and then

(34:32):
from there we're going to go to the premiere in Tokyo,
where I've never been. After we pick up Brad Pitt
in Amsterdam where he's shooting one of the first Oceans movies.
So we're on this giant plane with Eric Banna and
Brad Pitt and Wolfgang Peterson and Dave and I are
just like watching Brad sleep like We're not even you know,

(34:54):
just like look at and breathe. You know, we're totally
movie star stupefied. And I remember we land in Siberia.
You cannot make this up. Land in Siberia. I remember
getting off the plane and just a layover up to
get gas because it's such a long trip from Amsterdam
to Tokyo. And as we get off, I'm literally looking

(35:18):
at a guy with a collection a cough in a
in a fur hat and a red star on it
in in Mother's Siberia, and my phone works, and I'm
checking in and I'm looking down and I have like
a bazillion messages and I reached them and they say
we will pick up the show, but we're only picking
up five more. Wow. And we got our five episodes

(35:41):
pick up on top of the one episode we'd already
made for you know, probably the lowest price in the
in that time, in the history of you know, modern TV.
That's unbelievable. One other thing you spoke earlier about you
felt the show was transformative, you know, to share with
you my experience of shooting the second episode we ever

(36:03):
did Diversity Day and being in that room and saying
if America gives this show a chance we could do
something really special. Yeah, now we You're absolutely right in
Diversity Day is still one of my favorite episodes of TV.
Let Alone in the Office and is so funny and

(36:27):
dangerous and different in real and in a non PC way.
It was just laugh out loud funny. It was undeniable exactly.
And that's you know, all of the sort of issue
episodes where we tackle healthcare in a culture of no
gay marriage and don't ask, don't tell, we do gay

(36:49):
witch hunt Like I'm just so incredibly proud of that
legacy for our show. Oh absolutely. And the smartest guy
in the office ran the warehouse. And I always loved
that dynamic of Darryl and Michael because you knew Darryl
should be running that office if he wanted to. And

(37:13):
it was so important to me to have that in
the show because that's America. And I feel like the show,
through comedy, really pushed all of that around. And I
have cared super deeply about all of that my entire

(37:34):
life as the son of a gay woman and grandson
of a civil rights activist and union organizer, specifically the
Pullman Porters Union, A Philip Randolph and my grandfather, Max
Delson built up the Pullman Porters Union, the first black

(37:54):
labor union in it in America, and we looked at
Archie Bunker as the parallel, and we're informed by Archie
Bunker's bad behavior and all of the family and what
it did to open up doors for people like George
Jefferson in television land, and that meat had relationship and

(38:18):
everything that was within that we were now doing in
the workplace. That's amazing. So we've talked about the pilot.
We finished season one, we finished a whopping six episodes,
and then we wait for the upfront. What did you
think about our chances to be picked up? I was

(38:40):
incredibly hopeful and obviously passionate about the prospects of the show,
but it was still not by any means a sure thing.
And if anything, there was a sense among the senior
management and a lot of the more traditionalist is that
Jeff Zucker No, but just in general like it's it

(39:03):
was more institutional rejection, like because there were people in
the marketing department, the promo department, like they didn't understand it.
How do we market it, how do we promo it?
How do we sell? Is it is it a documentary?
Is it a reality show? And no one was a star.
There was no star at that point, so there were
a lot of challenges to its second season happening. And

(39:28):
were you having to fight, like were you going into
NBC and and fighting to get that second season or
was it more you were just waiting to see what happened.
There was a beyond fight. And I do remember going
into Jeff's office with the nod Day brothers who were

(39:49):
going to be making the nine eleven documentary, and I
used that meeting to also push for the office, and
I remember in the now days can tell you. We
had a good meeting, and then I brought up that
they had to pick up the show, like it had
to happen. It was too good. They please pick up

(40:12):
the second season. You have to do this, And from
that I was thrown out of his office. But I
remember being called and I looked down on my phone
and I get a phone call and says, we will
pick up not twenty two episodes for next season. We're
only picking up six and you have to make it

(40:33):
for half the price. And I needed everyone to take
less money on these episodes. And so I remember my
first call was to Ricky and Stephen because I thought
they would say fuck you like I you know, we like.
But I was like, we have a chance to do this,
and everyone said yes. Wow. Now when did you make

(40:55):
the deal with Apple to get the show on iTunes?
The Apple deal was aid by NBC right at the
beginning of Apple with Eddie Q and the team and Apple,
and they came to us about it and we just
said yes, please. Well we didn't expect would be that
Apple would then educate a whole new audience but also

(41:17):
market to us. They got behind the show. They kind
of treated it as their own and they also then
began rolling out later their own stores, and we were
the poster set. For music, it was YouTube, and for
entertainment video it was the office. I remember walking into

(41:41):
Apple stores and seeing the office on billboards before really
we were a big hit and and going like, wow,
this is awesome. Apple treated us better than our network
and maybe better than we deserved at that moment. But
they saw thing in the show too. Apple totally embraced

(42:03):
the show and they loved it, and Eddie Q loved
the show. You know, they actually liked the show, and
we did a trade out with Apple we did a
whole episode, the Christmas episode, which is one of the
great episodes of the Office and one of my favorite
favorite episodes. And the trading of the iPod it was
incredible and that was a huge thing for them, and

(42:25):
they didn't pay for it, but it was like the connectivity.
And then they ended up giving us all the computers
and kind of investing in the show as well as
an advertiser and supporter. And then they did the iTunes thing,
so they were always leaning in and so it really
had that fun give and take. So then the end
of season two, moving into season three, we're nominated for

(42:49):
a slew of Emmy's and when the Best Comedy Emmy,
what what did that? What did that mean for you
and your feelings about what the show could be from
from the beginning. It was the greatest. It truly was,
and the Emmys at that time were even bigger than
they are now, and it was just an amazing, amazing night.

(43:10):
It was a celebration for all of us and everyone involved.
We were so joyous, we were so young, we were
so happy, and it was a dream come true and
every level. I remember holding that trophy on that stage
and I don't think I let go of it for
the entire night, And now I would think, oh, it's

(43:36):
not it's so material in a way, but at the
time it just was so we made it, Like mom,
we made it. Yeah, that's great. The business model of
TV you talked about because you believed in the show,
doing the show for less and trying to find a way,
How did that change? How did the business change? Wants

(43:59):
to show became successful. It became a darling of the
network and important, and through that not beyond important. It
was still not at the level of other hits in
the history of broadcast comedy. Its ratings were good, but
they wasn't the number one show on TV ever. But

(44:22):
there was really nothing they wouldn't do to support it.
And Universal also was building a relationship on the movie
side with Krell and other actors in the series, and
they worked with us to accommodate everyone's schedules, their desires
to make movies, and how that would impact budget and
where they would find the money for the show. But

(44:44):
the show in and of itself never spiraled out of
control costwise. It was a very contained show in its invention.
We were never going to blow up a building. What
we did do is we opened up our storytelling and
we started to do we started exit the building a
lot more. Right, What was the logic behind doing the

(45:05):
hour long episodes? Why were we doing those? Well, the
show had a cinematic story telling feel if not look,
which was based on, you know, a real narrative satisfaction
in every episode, and within that we could use more
time to tell more story. And we also had so
many characters who could be utilized across that length of time.

(45:30):
But I think the main reason was we were the
number one show in the network and if they could
add nineteen hours of it, they would have had nineteen
hours of it, let alone one hour of it. And
clearly the show uniquely was both drama and comedy. It
was part soap opera, you know, workplace soap opera with
all these characters, part drama with the emotional depth and

(45:50):
then obvious celerity, and comedy. Look for your children's eyes
to see the true magic of a forest. It's a
storybook world for them. You look and see a tree,
They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms

(46:12):
outstretched to the sky. They see treasuring pebbles, They see
a windy path that could lead to adventure, and they
see you. They're fearless. Guide. Is this fascinating world? Find
a forest near you and start exploring and discover the
forest dot Org. Brought to you by the United States
Forest Service and the AD Council. Hi, I'm Glory Adam,

(46:34):
host of Well Read Black Girl. Each week, I sit
in close conversation with one of my favorite authors of
color and share stories about how they found their voice,
hone their craft, and navigated the publishing world, and composed
some of the most beautiful and meaningful words I've ever read.
We journey together through the cultural moment where art, culture

(46:58):
and literature collide and pay homage to the women whose
books we grew up reading. And of course I check
in with members at the Well Read Black Girls Book Club.
It's a literary kickback you never knew you needed, and
you're all invited to join the club. So tell your friends,
tell their friends so we can be friends who love books.

(47:22):
Listen to a Well Read Black Girl on the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi.
I'm Hillary Clinton and I'm excited to be back with
a new season of You and me both. You know,
when we started this podcast we were going through some
tough times, and let's face it, we still are. But

(47:43):
I am a firm believer we're stronger together. So please
join me for more conversations with people who will make
you think, make you laugh, and help us find a
path forward. Listen to you and me both on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you've at
your podcasts. So in May of two thousand seven, year

(48:25):
named co chairman of NBC. Why why did you take
that job? I thought it would be a fantasy to
run a network as it had been years earlier when
my mentor, Brandon Tartakoff had had the job, and I
really did see where the business was going, and believe

(48:46):
I knew how to turn this ship for the future,
because it was obvious to me that the future was
coming hard and fast and technology was going to enable
an absolute transformation of how people consumed content, and I
was eager to lead that transformation. I was rudely awakened

(49:09):
to the reality that no one wanted to change the
status quo because have been working so well for so
many of the people who were part of it, and
there was real fear in the decisions I was making,
What do you mean you'll go straight to series? And
an idea? How could you shoot something overseas? How could
you do a game show here? How could you do
shows that air multiple days in a row. What was

(49:33):
particularly challenging was having to disconnect from the Office, my
beloved show and The Biggest Loser, my other creation on
the network at the time, and not be able to
connect in this as deeply as I wanted because of
a perceived conflict of interest. And I kept saying, those
are the only reasons I got hired, along with Ugly

(49:55):
Betty and Tutors, and how I was able to bring
them in and grow the biggest nights on the air
by far. We're from the two projects that I had
on the network. Being chairman of NBC. Was that a
dream of yours from your childhood? Yeah? I always had
wanted to run NBC specifically, specifically, it was a network

(50:17):
I had grown up watching. I love Cheers, Hill Street,
Blues st Elsewhere. I love the idea of Dirty Rock.
I didn't realize that I would have to basically just
service the corporate part of it because that was the
only way that we could keep it moving without real pressure,
and it took me away from the part I love,
which was the creative part. But we I was still

(50:39):
able to green light parks and recreation and community and
all these wonderful shows, and do as good at work
as I could, and break down walls like make deals
with windows with direct TV, and do the straight to
series and bring an advertise, do everything needed to keep
it profitable and running, but without the momentum of being
able to choose all my own content because the strike happened,

(50:59):
so I couldn't get any development going, which was such
a bummer because that's the only fun part of running
that job. And so then you're in that job and
not even able to do anything truly creatively. Let everything
has to be kind of engineered, and so it takes
a lot of the fun the way and all of
that together, plus the entrenchment at the time of the
rest of the system. I learned in that moment it's

(51:21):
not always best to be first at doing something. You
might want to wait for someone else to do it
and then you can do it second and learn, or
have the constituents or the entrenched be a little more
tenderized for the moment, right um Parks and Rock You
Green Let in April two thousand nine, was this show

(51:43):
from Greg and Mike Sure was originally planned to be
a spin off, right, Yes, we were talking about having
Amy Poehler and potentially her husband at the time, will
our Nett, be seeded into the show to do a
family like spinoff. And then Mike Shure came up with

(52:04):
the dig out of that, which was set in that
world of small town politics. And I had made an
overall deal with Amy Poehler, who I was pursuing to
be part of the office originally, but then she leaned
in and went into that and Greg helped realize it

(52:24):
and partner with it with Mike got it. Were you
concerned about Greg that he was going to be too split?
Were you concerned about that? I felt like Greg had
built a bench on the Office that included people like
Mike Sure who wanted to go create their own shows

(52:44):
and to keep connected to that and at the time
running the network to keep those talented people connected to
the network. It was really good and valuable, and I
wish we could have converted the Office like Dick Wolfe
converted Law and Order and been the whole night of comedy,

(53:05):
because I do think the office is like a universe
of characters and style choices that can map out many
more narratives. Right, Did you have anything specifically to do
with Jen Silata and Paul Lieberstein, Paul, Paul and Jen
and everyone that we had hired, but Greg had then

(53:27):
really nurtured and mentored on the job. Even though they
were accomplished as they arrived, they were trained by Greg
in Greg's methodology and process. And our editors, who were
such an important part of that show, also brought a
lot of dexterity, and you know, became directors of episodes,

(53:49):
and cameraman became directors, and actors became directors, and writers
became actors, and so you had this great matrix of
people who knew how to do each other's jobs and
support each other. And to keep the talented people connected
to you, you have to either promote them or give
them more responsibility, or they go do something else, or
maybe they'll go do something else with you, if it

(54:10):
makes sense. So that's all part of it. Did you
feel like anything changed with Paul and Jen leading the
show or did you feel like it kept operating, you know,
with Greg's everything about the show changed when Steve Carrell
left the show. When Steve left, that was the seismic
shift in its progression. And I think the early energy

(54:33):
of the show was just so fresh and ridiculous that
it has to me some of the highest comedic hurdles
and delivery and funny because then you learn to actually
know these characters are going to go as far as
they went in the beginning. UM, and then it becomes
more self opera and familial, but something different, and I

(54:55):
think Jen and Paul love the characters and knew that.
I feel like with Um Steve's departure though, there was
just less son in the room. When did you find
out he was leaving? I was shocked that they couldn't
work it out, And when I heard the story of
how the network went about its process with him after
the fact, it made me so depressed how they had

(55:17):
kind of blown something that they could have saved. And
I think in that moment, also Greg not being there
to drive that also meant that we would lose Steve. Yeah, Um,
did you have any doubt that the show could go
forward without him? I knew the show could continue. I
think it didn't own its best stride and lost steam.

(55:43):
But had we used it to force even further reinvention
or different casting choices. I don't think we did anyone
a favor by bringing in James Spader. Neither James nor
the show um and he's so talented and clearly had
the black list one second later, But that feels custom

(56:03):
made for him. You know, the way he played that
character on our show didn't breathe as well and didn't
work as well in our format. What did getting to
episodes signify to you? It was validating to reach that milestone,
but when you're in youth, you don't think of things

(56:26):
that way. It's interesting to reflect on that number today
and appreciated as an accomplishment. But I'm very much today
and tomorrow. And so while I was in it, I
wasn't thinking about it's hundredth episode. I was thinking about

(56:47):
its next, the next hundred more. You left NBC shortly
after that, in the summer of two thousand nine. What
was the context of you laeving? I just knew I
didn't want to remain at NBC any more. It wasn't
my cup of tea d s our Britts expression. I
didn't enjoy being part of a organization that was just

(57:10):
purely focused financially at that time, and needing to get
so much money out of our part of the business
to support other parts of the business like ge Capital.
We also, when I was running NBC had come into
the greatest recession of our lives, and that recession, you know,

(57:31):
caused General Electric to panic and freeze, and caused every
advertiser to stop spending and caused us to not get
to make as many episodes of shows and other projects
at the time. Also, so I was starting to think, Oh,
my goodness, how much is out of my control in
this job at NBC with five zillion employees and General
Electric and all of these elements attacking and driving me

(57:54):
crazy into daily places. And then the top grass just
wants you to, you know, save as much money as possible,
and the writers are striking and a war with you,
and none of it is in your control or where
your choices, And so I knew I didn't want to
do it anymore. And so I remember quitting and being
just so excited to quit, and uh and telling Jeff Sucker,

(58:19):
I just don't have a stomach ache when I'm in here.
I don't I don't want to be here, you know,
And I said, I'll help you manage it, but you know,
I gotta, I gotta. I can't be here anymore. And
I've delivered you a lot, right, Um, season nine, did
you think that it was time for the office to end?
I felt like people were losing some steam and there

(58:41):
was a little bit of the first time, a little
friction that was a season eight or season not like
the lead up the lead up to season nine, and
I think there was just like a collective kind of
lack of focus, and so it all just kind of
it didn't there's no for action point. It just kind
of was starting to not have the momentum that it

(59:05):
had previously. And then the way to almost reignite that
momentum was around its coming to an end, and that
was like a way to reinvent and re light it
because it gave everybody purpose. Well my understanding, Greg essentially
confirmed this that the documentary is revealed and we see

(59:29):
the characters responding to that. Um that from there there
was there was no way to go back. Yes, we
broke the wall, and he had planned to break the wall,
and then he had planned to finally blow the wall
up and pull back, and that projection became the inevitable result. Right.

(59:51):
Do you remember being on set the last day? I
remember being on set at the end and just thinking why,
as an ionset more, what an idiot to have not
been here and present, to have enjoyed this ride and
instead to pursued unfulfilled dreams of network domination and ambition.

(01:00:15):
I could have been here a part of the greatest
comedy in history, with the coolest people around, and I've
I'm like an absentee landlord coming to visit. What are
you most proud of? I'm so proud of the show's
natural diversity and it's success with so many different groups,

(01:00:38):
and its ability to tell stories that kind of celebrated
the true America, which is what we see in real workplaces,
which is everyone represented. And I love that about the show,
that it did in the truthful, honest way through comedy,
and that made me so happy about it. And I
always returned to the fact, as wistful as I am

(01:01:01):
talking about the soap opera of the show, it was
so fucking funny. The office is genuinely laugh out loud funny,
and it is immediate, serious, high pitched comedy. It is
a lot of people sitting on an airplane giggling at
the same time watching their own monitors. Why do you think,

(01:01:23):
why is The Office right now, five years plus after
we've shot our last shot, Why is it the most
watch show on television right now? I think that The
Office is so textured and deep, has so many characters
who appealed to so many different people because those characters
represent so many different people, and it literally had a
larger ensemble. There were more actors and more characters for

(01:01:46):
people to connect with. But it also meant there was
more depth of story and more stories that could be
told because you had a richer ensemble to service and
who could service the show. And I think that people
kind of, you know, understand that that world so well
that it makes them really connect to it and they're

(01:02:07):
living it in their own way, and through this they
can find escape and comedy and joy. There's something anachronistic
to a warmer time, and I missed that time, and
it must be one of the reasons our show is
so resonant with a new generation because they are in

(01:02:32):
search of this kind of family and this kind of
warmth and truth in a world that's just filled with
bad noise and bad news. But the main reason is
because of its quality. And you have to have now
seen it or watched or discovered it, because someone is
going to bring it up, mention it, wear a T shirt,

(01:02:55):
send you a gift, and you have to now be
part of it. You can no longer hide. Well. Everybody
who worked on it owes you tremendous thanks. You're the
person responsible for bringing this to the United States, and

(01:03:15):
basically everybody who was involved with it owes you so
much for that. What are you thankful for? The office
is the greatest gift. And I am so happy I
was one of its principles and architects and got to

(01:03:37):
work with such fine people, but got to connect with
a permanent piece of culture. And I'm excited that I
have something I can share with my son and daughter
without even knowing where they end up. I know they're
going to like that show, and it brings me great
joy and brings me some calm to know that that

(01:04:02):
has been entered into the book. Awesome, there you go.
Thank you, Thanks buddy, love you great work. God you
got me at the end, all right, Bud, love you
so much. I thank you there. You have it, the man,

(01:04:29):
the myth, the legend, Ben Silverman. Ben, what can I say?
I appreciate you so much. I cannot even imagine how
different my life would be if you had not taken
that trip to London, flipped onto the Office and stalked
Ricky Gervais to a Starbucks all those years ago. So

(01:04:50):
thank you, and speaking of all of those years ago,
Tomorrow is a very special anniversary for the Office. It's
The Office is sweet sixteen, Yes, sixteen, glorious years since
our very first episode premiere. So as an anniversary gift

(01:05:12):
to you, our listeners, we have we have a special
episode with some exciting guests and much much more. So
come on back tomorrow and listen to our Sweet sixteen
anniversary episode. As always, thank you for joining me and
have a great day. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted

(01:05:42):
and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive
producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our
associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is
Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore.
Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great

(01:06:03):
friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky.

(01:06:26):
Give us the over attention. We need everything you've got
fast Waiting on Reparations, we'd beat the podcast. Tune in
every Thursday politics and wordplay. We fight for the people
because they got us in the worst way. From the
Hill Cooper, the Bombay to Kanya, from the left on
Clave to what the neo Kanza. Every Thursday, the heavy
conversation to break us off with some break because we're

(01:06:46):
waiting the reparations. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on I
Heart Radio, app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
I'm Jake Halbern, host of deep Cover. Our new season
is about a lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago.
He bribed judges and even helped a hit man walk

(01:07:07):
free until one day when he started talking with the
FBI and promised that he could take the mob down.
I've spent the past year trying to figure out why
he flipped and what he was really after. Listen to
deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever felt

(01:07:27):
depressed about work? Only to have your dad be like,
why you're so down. So you told him you hate
your job, and he said, well, you better talk yourself
out of it, and then you thought, hmm, I love
to talk. I could host a podcast. And then you
went to Speaker from my Heart and started a podcast
and got good at it, then monetized it, then quit
your boring job and told your dad thanks for the advice.
And he was like, well, that's not what I meant,
and I don't understand what a podcast is, but you
seem happy, so that's great, kiddo. You ever do that, well,

(01:07:50):
you could at spreaker dot com. That's spr e a
k E. R ask your dad. You actually don't