Paul Lieberstein

Today we hear from the man everybody at Dunder Mifflin loved to hate, Toby Flenderson aka Paul Lieberstein. Brian and Paul go over the moment that Michael Scott’s hatred for Toby welled up inside of him, the many ways Paul was the unheralded hero of the show, and their dreams to bring the Dwight spin-off “The Farm” to the world.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
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(01:32):
children's eyes and you will discover the true magic of
a forest. Find a forest near you and start exploring it.
Discover the forest dot Org. Brought to you by the
United States Forest Service and the AD Council. My name
is Paul lie Verstein, and I am a writer and

(01:54):
director and producer on the Office, and I played Toby.
I've forgotten. I constantly forget that I've played Hello and welcome.
Thank you all for being here. This is the Office
Deep Dive, and I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today

(02:18):
we have the quadruple maybe quintuple threat, Paul Lieberstein. Now,
despite the fact that he almost forgot about it. Paul
is probably most famous for playing dunder Mifflin's h R. Rep.
Toby Flenderson. Toby was a fantastic character, the character that

(02:43):
everybody love to hate. Well maybe they just hated. Toby
was the character that everyone just hated. But let me
be very clear, Toby was hated Paul. Nobody hated Paul.
He was one of our original writers. He was a director,
a produce, sir, and he was our boss. He was

(03:03):
the show runner on the show from season's five all
the way through season eight, which well that means I
had a lot to talk to Paul about. And Paul
blew my mind with so many things I had never
heard before, multiple times during this conversation. So I am
very excited for you all to hear it. So, without

(03:26):
further ado, the most soft spoken man in television, Paul
Lieberstein Bubble and Squeak. I love it Bubble and Squeak
on Bubble and Squeaker Cookie every month, lift over from

(03:48):
the night before. Oh there is great. You've been doing

(04:09):
a bunch. I've been doing a bunch. Yes, there's no
way too much about the office, I way too much.
And this is all off the record, correct, all of it.
We're not going to record. And we're not we're literally
not recording any of it. Wow, Hi, Paul, are we rolling? Um?

(04:32):
I mean you know, we're just we're literally we're just
having a conversation. Oh you know what I'm saying. Again,
it's all off the record, nothing's gonna be recorded. Um,
how are you? How's it work going? All right, Yeah
it looks yeah. Things are good. Yeah, family, family is kid,

(04:55):
family is good. Work is sort of so so, but
family is good. No, No, that's probably accurate. Family it's great.
I got a lot of joy from family and not
as much from not as much from Okay, I hear you. Alright,
So rewind back in your mind like fifteen years. Okay,
we're going back like two thousand four. What were you

(05:17):
doing in your work, not with your family? I don't
know what I was doing. I mean held and there
was the True Care Show, and then Bernie mac Show
and then Greg the Bunny. I think Greg the Bunny
was the last show that I had done. You were
writing on Greg's Bunny? And then were you unemployed? At

(05:39):
that point? I think I was free? You were free? Yeah?
Were you aware? I never really think about it as unemployed,
just free because like our jobs come and go, right,
So if you think about is unemployed, you can hit
some very big loads in there. Trust man's just they
come and go. Yeah, so you were free? Is free? Yeah?

(06:01):
Were you aware of the British version of it? Yeah,
you are very aware. I loved it. Yeah, I was
aware way before Greg was going to adapt it. I
mean it would really hit the sweet spot of what
I loved about writing UM and what I loved about TP.
What do you love about writing? UM? I do like

(06:25):
trying to catch real comedy as it seems to exist
in the world for me, and I like, you know, situations,
and it's much less people cracking jokes. And I think
there's a lot of room for people cracking jokes comedy,
you know, And I enjoy it sometimes, but it's not
what I'm interested in writing, right, Um, that was really unprofessional.

(06:49):
I didn't silence my thing, damn it. Um, So life,
you know, we hear noises, We hear noises that fa
deal and planes that fly over it's going to stop
their car? Like, what the hell was that? Um? What
was your relationship with Greg prior to you coming to
work on The Office? Um? Well, very strong released it

(07:13):
was he's my brother in law, right, So you've known
each other for a while, for a very long time. Yeah, yeah,
And you had worked together on King of the Hell.
So you were a big fan of the Office. You
knew it before he came on to adapt it. Were
you excited about that? Thrilled? And I was thrilled when
he asked me to be part of it, and I
was quite nervous about taking it on. But I couldn't

(07:36):
imagine not taking it onto, because then what am I
gonna do? Just work on something that is good. Why
were you nervous? Well, because I loved the British It
was done at a very high level and you know, um,
you know, most adaptations don't work. But because of your
relationship with Greg, you didn't know that you would be

(07:57):
working on the show. But you showed up for some
of the filming of the pilot. Yeah, just to hang
out and see how it was going, and just this
kind of a viewer. Did you give notes? I think
I suggested a few jokes, but you know, notes seems
to be a word used when when someone has like
an official role. Right, oh shit, okay, what are your notes?

(08:21):
I'm not interested in someone's notes. If they have some ideas,
I'd love to hear their ideas. Right. Um, So when
did you find out that you would be joining the
writing staff? I guess after the pilot was picked up.
He started putting it together and called. They also didn't
have a lot of money, because you know, NBC wasn't
releasing a lot of money, so he had a real
scout on staff, and I think I was officially three

(08:44):
days a week, although I started doing five days just
because it was fun and there was lots to do. Yeah,
I would not like coming in and something happened without me.
It's like, wait a second, No, we just agreed on this,
so that was better to be part of the whole thing.
What specific challenges did you feel or did you feel

(09:04):
like the writer's room felt adapting the show that you know,
critically and at least with a core group of people,
was such a huge, colt amazing show. I mean, obviously
we were really challenged. Everyone there loves the British show.
I think we just we didn't want to just copy it,

(09:26):
nor did we want to abandon it. But I remember
Greg saying early on that he kind of like took
apart that show like a watch and put it back
together and he knows exactly how it works, and so
I think we just grabbed the principles of how it
worked without grabbing anything else. I mean, there was definitely

(09:47):
a mirror, like a fuzzy mirror on the English show
where you could point to a lot of things and
be like, okay, you know, American version. That's so that's
the American version of that English ning. But it really wasn't.
I mean, Jim and Tim worst incredibly different as we're done,
and Pam and and you can't even begin to compare
Ricky and Steve. You know, do you remember feeling a

(10:11):
pressure to make it our own or americanize it? No? No,
it's felt the pressure to like live up to the
quality of their show, right, Um, and the potential embarrassment
that we faced. Yeah, when did you learn that you

(10:32):
were also going to be an actor on the show.
So we we had a while before we started production.
We were writing and writing, and nothing about it came up.
It never crossed our mind. But um, I think we
had the need for someone to come in and do
one line. And Greg had this idea that he wanted

(10:53):
to kind of break down the wall between the writers
and actors, which is like Verry like strong sacred wall,
this big tradition, and he thought, let's give it a try.
Let's break this down and you know, have some writers
see what it's like to be on set and have
more communication between the writers and the actors. And so

(11:15):
I got the one line. But we were up all
night writing and and it was like four in the morning,
but we finally went home and then I kind of
stumbled onto the set the next day. I had one line.
I didn't really know it very well, and I didn't
know Steve was going to improvise at all, and I

(11:38):
was so tired when we did it, and I think
that would like infused the performance quite a bit. And Steve,
you know, he wasn't the giant yet, you know he was.
He was kind of another actor on set, So I mean,
I can't imagine what it had been like coming in
season four and having to act with them, right, I

(12:00):
would have been really scary. But we got to know
him as we went, so it wasn't so bad. And
you know, we had such a forgiving as you know,
filming style. You kind of couldn't make a mistake unless
you broke, which happened. Which happened, But I didn't break much.
You didn't. I would just kind of stop and wait

(12:22):
for someone else to talk, which always happened. Someone would
jump in. I feel like I remember a big break
from you when Rain got really close to your face
and asked you where the Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely
broke yeah. Um There was a moment in uh season one.

(12:48):
I was barely acting, you know, I was just figuring
it all out, and we were doing a scene together
and they kept trying to make me be louder, and
I was like, I don't know why I would be
louder because the person I'm talking to is right here.
Why would I be louder? And you said to me,
we're sitting next to the refrigerator, which is off. Imagine

(13:08):
that it's got a really loud hum and you have
to talk a little louder. Oh okay, that was the
beginning of acting. So I taught you everything you know? Well,
you tell me one thing that I know. Yes, yes, Wow.
It could have given me a little more credit there. No,

(13:32):
I learned from everybody on set. Oh that's amazing. You
said it's not traditional and there's this huge wall typically
between the writing staff and the actors. How do you
think that that difference in our show changed the dynamic
it would have been. I don't think I should would
have come out that way if there if there was
a strict wall. We were all on the same page

(13:56):
with the show writers and actors, and we became so
close with each character and actor and liked them and
liked writing for them. And that often doesn't happen when
they're so separate. The writers have one idea what the
show is that they want to create, and the actors
have a different and so they're fighting each other on

(14:17):
set just create without ever talking. They're fighting each other. Right,
So I think, yeah, it was such a it was
such a good I need to do Often that wall
is there because of the producers and the director. Now,
the director typically, you know, you're not supposed to have
any sector. Is supposed to be the only person talking

(14:38):
to you about your performance, right, And I get that.
But at the same time, if you have you know,
the show goes for a little while. Actors know their
roles better than the director, the writers know the characters
better than the director, the DP knows the show better

(14:58):
than the director. And the director is coming in knowing
the least about the show of anybody, and we're all
supposed to like not make the show better and just
wait for the director to catch It's just it doesn't
really work completely, right. It's the It's the thing about TV.
I mean, it's a great rule for a great rule
for a movie, and I mean, you know, you can

(15:21):
see like as a director too, and we all became directors.
You know that building someone's performance, you want to tell
them just a couple of things. You can slowly try
to push them in a direction, and you know, it
matters how you say things. And I think we all
generally respected that boundary while we were building a scene,

(15:42):
but we all talked about the scenes beforehand and afterwards
what was going to come up the stories, and when
things weren't working, we just stopped and we just talked
to each other. I've taken that with me into the future,
like I always will show respect to a director, but
I will walk the video village and have a conversation
with the writer or the creators on set just about

(16:04):
the character or or what we're going for. I feel
like I'm able to have a conversation with them and
get to the core of actually what it is they're yeah, yeah,
Which is that a director is just more skilled at
having that conversation. Yeah, Yeah, I've really I'm really big
it with intention. Now I'm working on the Space Force

(16:27):
with Greg Now, so we were doing scenes with Steve
and I tell him to say whatever he wants and
just tell the intention, right, I mean, he's gonna say
whatever he wants anyway. But right, Um, did you feel
like you had because of your relationship with Greg? Did

(16:50):
you feel like you had a greater accountability to him
when you started working Like, did you feel Yeah? I
think you know, there's always the this I when two
people are working together and related, there there's there's this
sense of nepotism, you know, And I felt like I
had more to prove and I wanted to, for both

(17:13):
of our sakes, defend against that by just doing more
and being better, you know. Right, Um, I just want
to talk a little bit about the form of the show.
We began over time to find elements that we felt
like worked that was going to create, you know, the

(17:34):
best half hour of television, meaning in diversity day for example,
like setting that episode in one day, having you know,
having all episodes were one days most yes, as a rule.
As a rule, yeah, yeah, and which I astally think
that's something we broke a handful of times in two
And why was that important? When we were talking about

(17:57):
the concept of the show. A documentary crew had come
there that day for some reason, and everything we shot
was contained in like their intention and the I know,
at least the first few times we broke that rule,
it was because a story lingered to the next day,
so they followed it. But it was our feeling that

(18:19):
they weren't there every day catching everything, whereas I think
towards the end of the show we we said, no,
maybe they just are there every day. I have never
heard this before. I swear to god, I've never heard
this before. Yeah, why why did they come? Because they
came because they knew, Um, this person was coming to

(18:42):
talk to Michael about you know, a problem they received,
you know, the Larry movement, diversity thing, or but there
there was always that hook. Where were they there even
if it was never stated or so like, oh today
it's the Christmas party? Yeah, exactly. You can imagine some
days were not thing happened and they just didn't come.

(19:03):
That is Oh my god, that's so awesome. Do we
have that there? I loved that so much that do
we have that? Why wouldn't we have it? Are you
just recording it's this? Sometimes they just as you feel
like something interesting happening. No, I'm making sure that it's
clear from you. Um okay, So what did the Cold

(19:26):
Opens give us done? Um? What did that allow us
to do Aside from that sort of core structure as
we as we began to do those, I guess that
it allowed us to take on something of a much
smaller scope, a pure thing like you're bringing in Chile.
It was not going to be an episode. It was

(19:47):
a small thing, simple thing. One of the office workers
brings in some food and here's our little he's fills
it and there it is, right, I mean, side note,
it is by far the thing that people talk to
me about the most. Oh, there is no question. How

(20:09):
do you feel about that? Um? I thought it was
a beautiful moment. I never thought it would be this.
It was a humongous departure from almost anything that was
ever done on the show. It was kind of controversial
at the time. They were some people who didn't want
to do it. Well, it's only one character for an

(20:29):
extended monologue, largely played in voice over. Yes, that ends
in that. And they had shower. I showered and showered
and scrubbed and just like throwing out dirty towels out
of the shower to the wardrobe people. We filmed it

(20:50):
obviously at the end of the day, and Oscar and
Angela and I had a dinner that night at Mastros.
We would do this occasionally, we would go out and
have a nice dinner and just talk and be human
beings instead of accountants. And I walked in and all
I could do is smell chili all over my hands.
Just it just it was just in my skin. Um,
all right, enough about me. It's a hard time for hiring,

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(24:01):
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So you think about the office as this place of

(24:22):
ordinary stasis. But to me, what Greg and you did
throughout the show was constantly change something which I think
created a kinetic energy that kept spinning through. Was that
something that you were thinking about at the time, like

(24:44):
trying to keep stirring that pot. Yeah? Absolutely, I mean
I always thought putting Steve in with new blood and
a new energy was like worth six episodes of just
great comedy. Just every new person that you put next
to him. So like Idris Elba, Charles Minor just so

(25:07):
yes exactly, you know, who's clearly not a comedy guy,
hasn't done comedy before or since. But that energy next
to Steve was amazing, you know, and he just it's
what happens to him, you know, and he becomes a
different pars Cathy Bates next to Steve, Holly Amy Ryan. Um,

(25:31):
how do you feel like, in addition to those things,
kind of leaning into more of the supporting cast, fleshing
out those stories. How did that help keep the dynamic? Oh? Yeah,
that was the key. I think. You know, this idea
that there's five characters on the show was this age
old idea. You know, sitcoms have been following that pattern

(25:53):
for like as long as I've been watching them sixty years,
you know. Um, but there's no recent for it. And
I'd say in the beginning, you know, it was five
plus side characters, but that didn't last long. Everyone was
a character and pretty equal. Um. And then taking turns

(26:16):
and like saying okay, and again a lot of it was,
you know, because Steve was the comedy Michael was the
comedy driver. So picking the two, picking two characters to
then create an episode around, say Okay, this is gonna
be Michael Kevin or a Michael Stanley. You know what?
Did I stutter? Or we could just move that around
and kind of take turns and we would get a

(26:37):
completely different, new, fresh dynamic going. Right. How do you
feel like the different relationships we move into kind of
the love relationships. How do you feel like that made
the show different than just a comedy because Jim and
Pam was almost always played straight. Huh yeah, well it

(26:58):
was charged, you know, so I guess it always felt
straight because that's what you were paying attention to. Um. Yeah,
something like a relationship. There's just more at stake, and
it's very relatable. So I think people are I think
they could be having a comic conversation and you don't

(27:19):
even hear it sometimes, right, interesting. I mean they had
a lot of you know, they had no shortage of
like pranks on Dwight, and that was a dynamic taken
from the British that these two are going to connect
with each other over pranking Dwight and I think there
was a ton of comedy and us. But what you

(27:42):
saw you didn't register his comedy because what you really
registerous love story. Right. There's another relationship that I think
was maybe my favorite in the show. Will you play
that clip? Why are you the way that you are? Honestly,
every time I try to do something fun or exciting,

(28:04):
you make it not that way. I hate so much
about the things that you choose to be. I mean
that when was the idea for that born It wasn't

(28:24):
born in diversity. Steve wrote that speech. Yeah, he hated
And when I was watching some of those things last night,
I mean his face anytime he is looking at you
and angry at you in a way is completely trans
He almost looks like a different person, and he's his energy.

(28:44):
And at one point he's like, I hate your lemon
head or it's just like crazy, it's like I'm a
Nazi and he thinks he's doing a service to the
world by hating me. Well that, well, that's the other
famous one, right, Like if I had two bullets and
there was Hitler, Ben Laden and Toby, I would use
both bullets and kill Toby to it. I think it

(29:08):
happened in Meredith's birthday and we all had to sign
that card. So I just had to go in and said, oh,
can I have a card and sign something really quickly
and leave, and he would just watch me do it
the whole time, take after takeing he was just standing
there watching and he told me afterwards said he felt
like the hate for me just just well up inside

(29:30):
him during these takes. So it was so from that moment.
Is that why you guys? Decided to write that story
in or to continue that. You know, a lot of
it he would come from. I think the power of
it came from Steve, you know, and he would always
do more. Even starting with Diversity Day, he was just

(29:52):
supposed to say he would, you know, get out or
something like that, but he did more. He relished the
moment and played with it. And I think he continues
to do that. And really, you know, when we had
these thirty six minute cuts and had to decide what
would stay, when Steve loved something, he the performance would
be amazing. And I think that's what helped so much

(30:14):
of the Toby Michael stuff stay right, just his pure
power and just the pure power of his like, yeah
being being there, corral genius. Right. Um, what was What's
the episode that you were most proud of writing? That's
a good question. Money was the first hour one that

(30:37):
I did and I directed it as well, and Greg
gave me total freedom. I ran the rewrite and everything.
I think that was the one where I like totally
had control every line of it and I love doing that.
I'm really I don't know, I'm really proud of I
got nominated for Directors Guild Award for or an Emmy

(30:58):
for directing one. That one was a really big deal
of me because just where in my career it fell right.
What was different about your episodes? Was there a particular
strength or interest that you had? Um? I liked setting
up very simple situations where people were in basic conflict

(31:21):
and really just letting things play with very like natural
dialogue that I don't know. I think. I think that's
probably a part of a lot of my episodes. If
I go back right in the writer's room, would you, um,
would you each have assignments based on what your strengths
are or that was irrelevant? I mean, I don't know that.

(31:45):
We would work on a story for a while before
it had a writer, and I guess in the signing
of a writer there was thought to who's going to
do this? Well? Okay, well because you ran the show
for a while. We're talking about more about that a minute,
So you were assigning the writers to the particularly when
I was yeah, right, so would you say, oh, this
is a b J episode and so b J you'd

(32:06):
write this or well I'd never say it. No, we're
not out loowed, But but is that what you would think? Yeah? Definitely,
v J. Was um, it's like one of the strongest
joke writers I've ever worked with. I mean, he does
a lot of a lot of strikes. Everyone had a
lot of overall strengths, but his his sense of the
joke was extremely sharp. And certain episodes, you know, kind

(32:29):
of require that, right. What about Mindy, You know, Mindy,
I probably wouldn't have given her like an episode that
had like it was based on lots of twists and
turns and and big plot things, because she that was
not her interest and people would excel when they're following
their interests, you know. I mean she obviously she loved

(32:50):
the romantic comedy, but it wasn't just that she loved
but she wrote the Dundee's, right, he wrote the Dundee's
she I mean, she I don't know where to begin.
She a ton of them. Yeah, And when I think
about Mindy wrote the Christmas episode where You're sitting on
Michael's lab, and I think that goes to the kind

(33:10):
of the heart of some of the things that she
did so amazingly, which was like, just find something that's
funny and really play it out. And Greg loved that too,
and that's one of the reasons today, which that's a
great team. Um So the writers strike happens season four. Um,

(33:32):
do you remember anyway specifically that the office was tied
to that strike, And you know, we were really having
a moment in season four. We were very well respected.
There was a lot to lose, and as it happened,
the fact that Greg went out with the writers and
struck set a tone for all the showrunners, you know,

(33:58):
and it was because of them, and we could read
it online and see what they were saying. The fact
that he kind of led the charge for shore runners
to stick by the writers and shut down the shows
because technically he could have worked. Um, I don't know
that it's I mean, it was such a weird murky

(34:20):
area rum. He could make an argument that he would
have been on solid ground to continue to produce the shows.
And you could also make an argument that you know,
he had he had responsibility to to as a writer,
to to stop writing, because both were possible. He had
a choice to make, you know, and a lot of
show runners were very concerned about their shows and they

(34:41):
do the best. They had to stockpile scripts and I
think you know, the fact that Greg was striking was
a big part of Steve not crossing the picket line,
and that was what brought the the office to stop.
My biggest lesson from the strike was, you know, I

(35:04):
had taken notes from a lot of directors as I
was studying to be one. So we were in the
middle of Dinner Party, we were about to shoot it,
and one director scouted it. It was as as if
like things were being presented to him and he was
figuring out how he was going to shoot it. And
and then we came back that event that director was

(35:26):
not available and Paul Fi. We got Paul Fi to
direct Dinner Party, and he came in and did the
exact same scout, but bent that place. He came in
with a vision and bent the place to to suit it.
He was like, paint these walls and you know. And
it was then that I learned what a scout was,

(35:48):
how how I needed to approach a scout as a director.
I should fully imagine this space working for me in
every possible way I can and say it. And I
need to imagine it now in the scout, because three
hours from now it's too late. I didn't tell the
people what to do. Amazing, Um, how did you feel
about when Greg decided to leave and go developed parks

(36:11):
and recreation. I know he was never gone gone, but
how did you feel And when did you find out
that you and Jen we're going to take the show over. Yeah?
He and I just kind of went on a walk
on Satici and he told me h and asked me
if I wanted to do jan. I don't thought it
was a big honor. Did you say yes right away? Yeah?
Definitely right. I thought it was pretty pretty amazing. Were

(36:36):
you didn't scare you? Definitely? Sure? No, of course. Um,
So what how did the writer's room change just pragmatically
with with Greg and Mike both leaving. Um, Jen and
I worked together so well, and we could we could

(36:58):
kind of work together or take turns, kind of covering
for each other when it thinks got really late, and
we both liked each other's writing so much that it
just made it easy. Right. I remember that it didn't
feel to me as though much had changed, because it
wasn't like he was gone gone. It wasn't goodbye Greg. Yeah,

(37:23):
And I think he really wanted to to be the
face of that too, so he was he would be
on the cause of the network. He would be at
all the table reads and the places where he would
typically interact. He kept interacting. He was definitely worried how
people would view it. But you know, at the same time,

(37:44):
like Jan and I, I loved Greg's writing and it
wasn't like you know, and I've been on a lot
of shows that you know, when someone goes there, there
could be the satage. Finally we get to do it
all the way. Now we're really gonna pick up this show.
You know people are going to see the difference here.
Um No, that wasn't it at all. We loved Gregs writing,

(38:06):
We loved what he did, and we just wanted to
keep doing that. Even though he gave me authority. I
wanted him to like the show. You know, this was
his show and after table, if he didn't like it,
I would change it. I don't think I ever just said,
well I like it, so we're doing it right. We
would always find the overlap of where we both like

(38:30):
the show. Do you feel like you have different sensibilities
are generally similar? We have a big overlap, but then
we also have harrus where we don't overlap. What what
would you say the biggest thing in the non overlap is.
I don't know. It's not super clear to me, but
I know I used to definitely feel much more comfortable

(38:52):
going a lot darker than he would. That's exactly what
I was going to say. Yeah, I could go dark.
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my Heart radio app or wherever you get your podcast.
So when did you find out that Steve was not
going to come back. Did you feel confident that the

(41:44):
show could continue or were you not sure? I'm not sure.
I thought there was a lot of good reasons why
we could keep going, and you know, we had done
so much. I mean, he was seven seasons. I just
tho there were some a lot left so the show
could either find a new direction or it wouldn't work.

(42:05):
And we talked so much about what kind of new
directions it could be. But then ultimately I wanted to
keep going because we had a great cast, and that's
the decision not to bring in somebody else huge from
the outside and try to do a big gorilla, which
we had talked about too. But we brought in James Spader,

(42:25):
we did, but he was part time and it revolved
and then we and then we did Katherine take for
a while in that job. I think we were we
were finding it. It was not easy in season eight
to figure out what the glue of the show was, right,
it had a strong core before it was there was

(42:48):
a guy who wanted more from this group than the
group could give and almost everything came out of that. Right.
I had a discussion I think it was with in a.
I think it was her. If it wasn't her, we
can change this. But I had a discussion with somebody
who talked about one of their biggest disappointments or regrets

(43:11):
in the show was that it wasn't there wasn't enough
confidence given to the people that we had, feeling like
that we had to bring somebody else in. I think
what I said, which I can sympathize with the decision,
was that at that point, nobody who was there felt
like a boss. Yeah. And the other thing was we

(43:33):
were getting a lot of pressure from the network. So
the network, who had historically been behind us so much,
just changed hands, just changed hands to Comcast just as
Steve was leaving, and they wanted a big gorilla. They
wanted a big star to come in and take it over,

(43:55):
which we fought. I how to say, like they didn't
even know all the characters names at that point, they
weren't really following the show. I think we were just
a disappointing line item at the time. And then all
of TV was losing its ratings, all of TV, right,
and we didn't know how much of a hit we
would take with Steve going um, but we took a

(44:18):
pretty big one and they wanted those numbers up. But
at the time, I mean, what we know now is
that was happening everywhere and everywhere with if he had
stayed right Um, there was no way to know. But
that was behind a lot of the pressure we were getting.

(44:40):
I was kidding. Was there a specific name that Comcast
was wanting to take over? Um. Lots of names were floated, Julia,
Louis Dreyfus, James Gandelfini, someone who actually met with to
explore it. But again, that was going to be in
the in the part time range because I really did

(45:03):
not want to put a new person in the office
in Michael's chair. I just felt like, we're never going
to get that right and we should just diffuse that
thing and focus on everyone. We had interesting what I
was doing, and you know, even when people came in,

(45:25):
they weren't the focus. No, absolutely, I'm surprised. I'm surprised. Yeah,
Jenna's kind of I can't remember who it was, but
I'll tell you so you can get mad later. I'm
not mad, just really, really really hurt. You know, Um,
any personal recollections from when Steve left. Oh yeah, it

(45:47):
was so well, we were all so tight, you know.
I remember like giving it like a little toast to
him and getting choked up after his last scene. Yeah.
I was gonna miss him a lot and did. Yeah,
we all did as a person, as a person, yeah,
and as the genius that he was. Yeah, but I

(46:08):
think it was you know, our experience of doing the
show was the people and the talent was you know,
it's a lot to do with the product. He was
a great guy who set a tone on you know,
I don't know that the first person to say this,
but he set this tone that it was really important
to treat people well and everyone was important. But he

(46:31):
was also just really fun to have her own. Yeah.
I think we all just we're said to him, go yeah. Um.
So how much were you aware of what Greg's vision
for the entire series would be? Like it was I
remember hearing early on, so I know you did that

(46:52):
there was a beginning, you know, the documentary crew comes,
there was a middle, and that Greg had a specific
idea for what the would be. How early on were
you aware of that very you know, those ideas were
out really well, you know, season one and two. You
need these ideas, especially season one and then and be like, Okay,

(47:17):
that's an idea for season eight, that's an idea for
you know that in our last season, you know, and
like breaking the fourth while in the documentary crew um
and including that, that was an idea that was early
that we just put We knew that was going to

(47:38):
be at the end put away. Yeah right, we knew
it blew up the show, right, And was there ever
any talk of not doing that but being like e
er or something where it would just keep going forever.
Was there ever any real talk of that just keep
show going forever? Yeah? Totally. Where did you fall on that?

(48:01):
I feel it was not possible to make this transition idea,
have to slowly bring people on and shift focus. Everyone
would have to really be on the same page for
to want that to happen, and not everybody wanted that
to happen, and Greg really wanted to finish the story.
And you can't finish the story with everybody gone, right,

(48:24):
I mean, you would not have had a satisfying ending
if after twenty if the show is still on now
and after another five ten years, we go, okay, well,
now we're going to break the fourth wall, the the
kind of Survivor element where we're just if we are
just in season eighteen right now or whatever it would be,

(48:45):
this show wouldn't be as regarded as well as it is,
and Survivor would probably be regarded higher than it is
if it had ended after ten, right. Was there any
noticeable change in Greg coming back full time for that
last season and your roles changing again? Well, I spent

(49:07):
that year mostly trying to get the spin off going,
writing that, casting that going, focusing on that toone, so
I really wasn't a daily part of the writer's room
season nine, season nine, Yeah, yeah, there was a part
of me that was like that I had kind of
finished in a way, but you were still writing, right,

(49:27):
We're still acting in every episode and no, uh, you know,
aside from writing the Farm, that's the only episode I
wrote that year writing and directing the Farm, I think
was the only time I directed that year too. How
disappointed were you that that that did not go forward?
Very disappointed And I think it would have been a
really big hit. Why did it not? Again, this is

(49:50):
the shift over to the the new management comcasts. I mean,
I don't see how someone could not give the farm
a chance, right, to not give the Dwight spin off
like a chance, like maybe what if it does find itself?
You know? Interesting? So for you, it was really about

(50:13):
Comcast comes in and buys and doesn't have the seven
year history with the show is essentially coming in now
as Steve is gone and the ratings are going down
and you're finding yourself creatively, and so there hasn't been
an investment or a buy in exactly. Yeah, so really

(50:35):
we needed it Kevin Riley. Yeah, we needed a Kevin
Riley to be there at the time, to be at Comcast,
someone that saw what could happen. Yeah. Um, why do
you think that the show has become now the most
watch show in television five six years after we've shot anything?

(50:58):
Is that true? The most Yeah? Fifty two point something
billion minutes watched. That's a hundred thousand people watching it
from the moment they're born until they die, living an
average life. Wow. Are they doing that to some people?

(51:22):
I think they should. It's mean, I mean, they wouldn't
have a diverse life, but potentially a happy life. Um.
Do you feel that the show in your interactions with
people that it's it's bigger today than it was definitely,
definitely yeah, and going younger. Yeah, why do you think

(51:43):
that is? Why is it connecting with people maybe even
more so now today? In a way it was built
for streaming. I don't know, there's the it's a very
hard you know, there's a phenomenon out there. It's very
hard to explain. But streaming one you kind of pay attention,
and a lot of shows you're not given any permission

(52:04):
to pay attention because they're so forced down your throat um.
Streaming is lightly serialized, like the best of streaming is
lightly serialized. And we were, you know, with no knowledge
of what streaming was. That that was just how we
thought the show would be best. We told stories over

(52:26):
years and we we really like the mini arcs. I
don't know, as a viewer, if I'm watching something streaming
and it's it's too I have to wait too long
for a conclusion, I get really angry and I'm out.
We found these six arcs and thirteen arcs. You know
that we did a lot of three six you know,

(52:49):
we had depending on what it was. But like Michael
Scott Paper Company, you know where he takes a journey
over six episode, which is perfect for streaming. It's very
satisfying to watch six episodes in the beginning something to
the end of it, and then you know, by the
end of it, we're back to We're back to where

(53:10):
we were, even though we're playing a giant dark with
Michael Scott, you know that takes seven years to go
through about him becoming kind of a whole person. So
I think I think we're built for this platform. We're
built for today really well. So in the last line
of the show, Pam says this line about there's beauty

(53:31):
and ordinary things. It being Greg's episode, who wrote it,
I have to assume that that's what he thought the
show was about, that there is beauty in ordinary things.
What did you think it was about? But yeah, I
guess that I thought there was I was probably a
little more focused on there's there's comedy and ordinary things.

(53:54):
I mean, and and I know he felt both, but um,
you know, the the commody that comes from very small,
ordinary conflicts is my favorite stuff. And uh, you know,
when we hit that, I think we were at our past.

(54:15):
You know, right, what are you most proud of? I mean,
you led almost half of the run. I'm most proud
of what we were as an aggregate. You know, it
wasn't a single moment that I'm more proud of than others,
although I'm very proud of a talking head in which
you did not know the alphabet LEMN. No. Yeah, yeah,

(54:38):
that's what I mean. That's what I mean. That little glint,
that little glinty in your eye. I go, here is
something I haven't I haven't ever revealed this before ever,
but I remember you saying to me. I mean, it
was just one of those moments about like we were
getting towards the end. We're up in your office and
you said to me, we need you because Steve is leaving.

(55:03):
That only leaves us, Dwight. We need someone to do
the really really dumb things. Sorry, we need somebody to
do the really really dumb things now that Michael was gone,
as Dwight is there, we need someone to do the
things that are bigger and or dumber than Dwight. No, okay,

(55:25):
thanks boss, Yeah, yeah, um, but you This is sort
of a side note, but I'm most thankful for all
of the relationships that I made, and I'm thankful to
you that you trusted me and gave me an opportunity

(55:47):
to direct. It was a no brainer for me. Really,
you do an awesome job because I'm smarter than everybody else. Yeah, yeah,
I play dumb but actually smart. No. You uh, you're
a highly you're highly trained actor, right, You're very skilled
and trained, and you knew a lot about acting, and

(56:08):
we were an actor's show, right, So I thought that
was a no brainer. You know, I knew you would
do an amazing job. Well, thank you. I look forward
to the phone call to come director your next show. Um, dude,
I appreciate you so much coming in. It's so fun
to talk about this. I was with Steve yesterday and

(56:32):
somehow we just started talking about Michael Scott for so
long on the office days, it's fun to do. I
didn't want it for a long time. It's like, come on,
put this shot of bed um. But it feels good
now go back and talk about it. Yeah. Well, I
think that you and I hope this doesn't sound weird.

(56:55):
I feel like you're the unsung hero of the show
that you don't get the credit that you deserve for
your vision and innovation that happened during the time that
you were there. So I want you to know that
I appreciate you. Yeah, no one said that. I do

(57:15):
think you're an idiot. Well yeah, it takes away some
of the good feelings. Okay, um, but thank you for
coming in, Thanks for having me here. Oh good, there

(57:40):
you have it. That is Paul Lieberstein. Thank you Paul
for sitting down with me. You know how much I
love you. And I don't know is it too late
to start a petition to revamp the farm. I'll ask
Rain if he's free. Uh. In any case, thank you
all for listening. I absolutely love sharing these interviews with you,

(58:03):
so I hope you're loving them. To have a great week, everybody.
The office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by
me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our

(58:23):
senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producer is Emily Carr,
and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man
in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble
and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and
the episode was mixed by seth Olansky. Hello, Hello, Hi,

(59:00):
Oh my god. I want to come through the screen
and hug you. Hey, everybody, Jessica's are here, also known
as Vanessa Abrams on Gossip Girl. I am so excited
to share my new podcast with you guys. It's called
XO XO and it's a walk down memory lane all
about Gossip Girl. I'll chat with some of the cast
crew fans of the show, and I'm just so pumped

(59:23):
for you guys to go on this journey with me.
All Right, I made Westwick, I played Chuck Bass. Is
this Michelle Tractonburg I'll never tell. Hey, I'm Taylor Mompson
and I played Jenny Humphrey. Hi, I'm sbashion Stan and
I played Carter Ason. That was one of the reasons
I liked the character Jenny so much, is that she
was very relatable. The whole thing was such a choice

(59:44):
for me to do, and I was just so thankful
that people responded the way they did to what we
were doing. This really was just like wonderful. I like
have like warm feelings inside. I'm giving you air hugs.
Listen to XO XO on the I Heart Radio app,
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(01:00:07):
does the chicken say? Uh? Draft diraffe really giraffe, Giraffe,
You're not gonna get it all right. Just make sure
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Get it Right visits n h S a dot gov

(01:00:28):
slash the Right Seat brought to you by the National
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host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a
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day when he started talking with the FBI and promised

(01:00:49):
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what he was really after. Listen to deep Cover on
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