August 31, 2021 • 33 mins
Special guest having this week Brian does… that's right, Oscar-nominated Amy Ryan aka Holly Flax, the one who stole Michael Scott’s heart joins us on the podcast. They talk about going from serious drama to an off-the-wall comedy role, acting while drenched, how Holly broke the chain of Michael’s bad relationships, and the “special” relationship between Holly and Kevin.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
I'm Amy Ryan and I played Holly Flax on The Office. Hello, Hello, everyone,
welcome to another installment of the Office Deep Dive. I
am your host, Brian bond Gardner. I hope you're doing
(00:27):
very well today, and if you're not well, I think
I'm about to change that because my guest on the
podcast today is the truly extraordinary Amy Ryan. Now I
have to come clean about something here, Okay. When Amy
(00:47):
Ryan showed up on the set of the Office for
the first time, I freaked out a little bit because
I am a huge Amy Ryan fan. If you have
not seen her work prior to the Office, you should
Season two of The Wire Genius. Her Oscar nominated performance
(01:07):
in Gone, Baby Gone is so heartbreaking and amazing. Now,
I interviewed Amy in New York right after my interview
with Paul Feig, and partly because we live on opposite coasts,
I had not seen Amy in such a long time,
many years in fact, and immediately boom, I'm just so
(01:31):
happy to see her again. I have this special place
in my heart for Amy, and what's amazing to me
is that so many people have a special place in
their heart for Amy, even though she only appeared in
fifteen of our two hundred plus episodes. I mean, I
(01:52):
could imagine a world where people were not so fond
of Amy and the character she played, because basically she's
the reason that Michael left the office. Right. But Amy
was so undeniably perfect and wonderful as Holly that you
just couldn't help falling in love with her. Plus she
(02:12):
and I, for better or worse, we are linked together
forever because of the very special Kevin Holly storyline, which
well you'll hear us get into shortly. Anyway, am I am?
I gushing? I'm gushing. I can't help it, Ladies and gentlemen,
Here she is Amy, Ryan, Bubble and Squeak. I love it,
(02:40):
Bubble and squeak, Bubble and Squeaker, cooking every month, lift
over from the night before. So I was here and
(03:02):
we were thank you anything else. I'm okay, thank yousus.
What's on the list. There's nothing but beverages on this table.
I don't know, Hidrake, I'm caffeinating. I was here very briefly.
I saw John Um, they let me get rid of
(03:27):
these Paul things, just get rid of it. And then yeah,
Paul was I think he's doing a pilot and then
a movie back to back. So he was like, you
can come to New York or else you in May
or something like that. I'll come back. That's great. Yes,
(03:49):
how are you good? Really good? Yeah? Um? Alright, So
before you were cast, did you watch the show? My
My History The Office started with my neighbor Noline Burke,
who came home from Ireland visiting her family with the
(04:10):
British series. She said, this is a really funny show.
You have to watch it, and she had, you know,
like the DVD pal or whatever. So I was full
on in convert from the Ricky Gervais series. Then I
heard they were making an American version and I thought
that was just blasphemous. Why why can't they just import
(04:31):
the show? Why do we import our shows or export
our shows there? But we Americans need to remake something
that's perfect, And I thought it was the worst idea ever.
And then I started seeing the cast assembled. I was like, oh,
this is going to be funny, and it was. And
(04:52):
I watched the American version happily. Um, and then I thought,
like I I enjoy comedy. I never I'm not good
at the four cameras sitcom thing. I can't land the
boom boom, the whatever. But I when I saw The Office,
I was like, oh, this is character based comedy. This
(05:15):
is not rhythm. I mean, there are some rhythms and
of course, but like it's not so dependent on that joke.
And then the alternative punchline for that joke that all
the writers stand around writing and let me get it.
That is like too stressful for me. So anyway the Office,
I felt like, Okay, here's the world I could fit
(05:35):
into in terms of building a character. And there, you know,
everything is life for death for them. So what was
the process of you being cast on the show? Did
they approached you to come in? That was the year
I was nominated for an Oscar for Gone, Baby Gone,
and I remember saying to my agent, half joking but
(05:56):
not really, I was like, you know, if we have
any role right now, I want to cash it in
on the Office. I had not heard that, yeah, and
he's like okay. And apparently simultaneously, Paul Lieberstein, who I
had known from sitcom many many years earlier, called the
(06:17):
Naked Truth that he was writing on knew of me
but also as a fan of the Wire, And so
I think I'm not sure who called first, but I
think both were, Like there was a coincidence of timing
that in that case. So so I showed up, like
what are you doing here? Why? Anyway? I I felt
(06:42):
very very confident in my decision that this is where
I wanted to be next because a lot of all,
you know, a lot of the opportunities as well, Like
there's not much imagination once you maybe poked through with
a role. You know, as you may know from your
own experience, like people like, great, we have this new
role for you, and she's a drug addicted mother. You're like,
(07:03):
you mean, like the one I just played. Okay, that
doesn't sound like so much fun. For a while, playing
someone intelligent was not coming to me surprisingly, isn't that frustrating?
It so so? But making those hard right turns and
giving other people whiplash is what I was after, Like
(07:24):
it's so certainly like going to a comedy and just
being well groomed in a role, you know, So I
was I was really grateful for that that they thought
it was a good idea too. So when you were cast,
did you at that moment have any idea of where
it was going to go? No, but I I understood
(07:48):
that I was there on a trial basis. I think
it was the last episode like Goodbye Toby. I came in,
and I think it was a pretty fancy addition, basically
like having not read for the role, like okay, if
this doesn't work out, because they said, like, you know,
maybe might might be love interest from Michael Scott. We're
(08:11):
not sure, but you know, we still have some ideas.
But yet again, there was the British version to kind
of go By, and there was that character I forget
her name, but where he finally found someone that the
affection was mutual. But then I believe that about that
part is I think where it stopped, like the comparison,
So I knew it was a little up in the
air and depended on how well I did. I mean,
(08:32):
it felt very welcome by all you guys. But there
is a weird thing about being a fan of a
show and then being employed by that show. I remember
doing it, like one episode of e Er back in
the day, like shocked that the hallway was so little
that they did all that choreography of like running through
with gurneys and such, and you know, the wire was
(08:53):
the same thing like being a big fan of the
show and then joining the company in the second season,
it was it's it takes a minute. You're just like
calm down right, No, No, Well, being a guest star
is a very difficult thing. You're the transfer student from
another school. Totally. Yeah, well, who's going to sit with
me at lunch? Were you were? You? Were you nervous
(09:17):
when you walked onto set the first time? I was nervous.
I can tell because my head is tilted down like this,
and because because my daughter just watched that episode, and
so having the hindsight, like I was like, oh, yeah, look,
you're not like standing up straight. Yeah, just that little
till to the head, like maybe no one will notice
(09:40):
if I mess up. And then I was, And then
you know, a lot of that quickly subsided because the
nature of being on the offices, you are a main
character and an extra all in one. Right. You are
in the background every scene if you don't have spoken lines.
And I remember were being positioned by one of the
(10:02):
low file cabinets and pretending to go through papers, and
kind of shock is all that those papers were like
old medical records. Yeah, I thought, oh my god, this
is somebody's it's also security number, this is somebody's medical history.
This is just shocked anyway, Yeah, they recycle. That was
(10:26):
Kate flannering I talked about, which I had forgotten. Get
a shredder, people shred your stuff. You might end up
a prop on the office exactly. Your chemistry with Steve
(10:59):
from the beginning thing is amazing. Did you guys have
a discussion. I mean, you were a fan of the show,
so you knew his character very well. But how much
of that was a discussion about you know, potentially Holly
being the female version of him or is that how
it was described or no, Um, it wasn't described that way,
(11:22):
but you know, just in the writing, I mean, it
was so generous of the writers too offer me those tidbits,
whether it was like rapping with him or you know,
the Yoda saying clearly they're saying she is of like kinfolk.
And then just as an actors like, well, I can't
(11:44):
do you know Steve's bit like I can't and even
if I tried, I couldn't. But like, how do you
make it the same but different? You know? Um? And
I just I just love that idea that there's a
lid for every pot. You know, I was, I don't
know my really want to admit this. But after however,
many years playing different parts and theater and other TV
(12:07):
and film, I get a call from my high school boyfriend.
He's like, well, I'm so glad you're finally playing yourself.
Really Yeah, and I can't really deny that. Yeah, yeah,
(12:27):
that's amazing. My my like nerdy, geeky side was on
the rise. Yeah. So drug adult single mother. Oh no,
that's part of that's that's the other side of my personality.
I like to keep it balanced, don't pigeonhole me. You
(12:49):
had worked with Steve before, very briefly, yeah or um. So,
Steve started a film called Dan in real life, and PETERR.
Hedges wrote and directed. Peter's an old friend of mine
and I have really teeny tiny part in there, playing
his sister in law. It's a big extended family and
Peter got together a bunch of his New York actor friends.
(13:09):
We all were up in Rhode Island for I don't know,
six eight weeks or so. Anyway, the whole company was
very close and that's where that's where I met Steve Um.
You know, just chit chatting. We really didn't have any
scenes together and stuff like that, but I don't I
don't know. I got asked that a lot about what's
the chemistry with Steve, and I have to say, I
have to give him credit for being the most grounded,
(13:31):
down to earth creative genius that um you can dream of,
because he's got a really good thing going on, and
he he isn't subliminally subliminally like I can. I want
to change that work as who can say subliminally. He
(13:53):
is in no way saying back up, let me do
my thing. I've experienced that on sets with other actors,
like they're they're not even really looking at you or
you know, they can do it all. They don't even
need you off camera for their close up. But Steve,
and I guess that's his early days, you know, improv
being with a group. He's so generous, and I always
(14:17):
thought it was weird. He'd be like the first one
to be like, that's so funny. He'd tell everyone like
how funny they were, you know, and you just like
just your shoulders dropped a little bit. You're like a
little more relaxed each time. But I don't know. I
did say to him one time, I said, I know
this sounds really flaky, but um, I really feel like
I've known you before in my life, and he said
I feel the same. So I think it was just
(14:37):
about trust and just having fun. Like so you were
there and then you left. And it's interesting because you know,
you talk about Jim and Pam, their relationship played just
very purely, and then all of Michael's relationships played essentially
(14:57):
totally for comedy, at least until Holly, you know, like
the Carol, the real estate agents and Jan that was
like so preposterous and terrible. But I think for me,
even though you guys were so close and that chemistry
was there in my head, you left and it went away,
(15:19):
like it went away. And for some reason the Herpies
episode where he calls you, I suddenly went, oh, this
is it, Like this is this is where they're going.
Where were you in terms of discussion about you coming
back or did you say no? Where? No? We left
it open and I'd love to come. But for me,
(15:40):
it was also about location. I live in New York
and I love being in New York, so I didn't
want to relocate to Los Angeles. But I was happy
to come and go. And then also in that time
then I was pregnant and had my daughter Georgia, So
so there was a big chunk off while that was happening. Yeah,
(16:00):
where do you feel like Michael's search for the American dream?
You know, happiness, success, family? You know that that that's
all he's looking for and nobody will give it to
him except d whit that he doesn't want anything but
that it becomes the people that are in this office
(16:23):
until until you come along. How do you feel like
that transition for him his character happened or how did
you see it? Well? I don't know if I can
speak so clearly about Michael in that way, but um,
I just feel like, maybe you know, Michael just became
(16:43):
just a happier person, and you know, he's still crazy,
That's what I still like, Like he still makes really
bad choices along the way and things that make other
people cringe. Like it's not like suddenly Holly comes and
spreads this magic pixie dust on him and he's like
a normal person. But she got a little of that too,
so it's it's permissible in their world. Um I I
(17:06):
think you know, when I'm stopped or asked questions. You know,
if it's someone on the street or I just I'm
always amazed at how much like they root for a
guy they don't like and they're so glad he met me,
you know that, or you home and I love that.
That's all in conflict with each other. Um So what
(17:27):
does what does Holly mean? From Michael? I mean, it's
a guy who's just so so desperate to have a
win somewhere in his life or to be that guy.
You know, he poses at that for so long and
then here's someone he doesn't have to work that hard
with for the I think the first time we see him,
(17:49):
or that we've known him rather and I don't know,
maybe that it's it's all gonna be okay, like if
there's one phrase to it, like, you know, we all
matter the end of the day, we all matter. There's
there is someone for you and if you don't feel
good along the way, then you you're just with the
wrong person. And maybe that sounds easier said than done.
(18:09):
There's someone single alone being Yeah, you know, thanks thanks
for that advice, sing me Ryan, you suck like I
think I think there's um, I guess progress. It's the
word he's gotten out of his own way. Yeah, but
I think that in the show. On the show, all
of the characters, you bring up a really interesting point
(18:31):
that people haven't talked to you so much, but so
much is about just wanting to win one just having
that one success, be it in work or in life
or in love or whatever. And Holly really is that
for him? Yeah? Yeah, and he didn't have to work
(18:52):
that hard for it. I mean she was in as
fast as he was pretty much. So you know that's
that's also on to see him get knocked back a bit, right,
He can more be himself. Isn't to stalk a woman
to date her. He doesn't have to pose. Yeah, And
then of course we all feared his viewers if you say, like,
(19:13):
what does this mean for the show? Is he leaving
the show with what? No? No? What? Back up? Back up?
Back up? You know that proposal? When I had to
walk down the line of everybody holding candles, I couldn't
stop crying. I thought it was one of those things
where it's like I had to tell meself, like this
isn't real. But there's something about everybody's face, like looking
(19:36):
so lovingly and they can't like it. Was such a
beautiful setting. But I had to I had to tell myself, like,
these are actors, you're not getting married, but it's like
any wedding, Like, oh, it makes me cry. I've often
I've often said there was something about that that seen
(20:01):
that water comes, you know, the sprinklers coming down, that um,
I don't know, what's so sort of beautiful and moving
to me. I Steve directed that episode and I remember,
you know, the water being such a big effect and
that first take, which is what's in the show because
it was shocking and it was cold and it was
(20:21):
goofy and it wasn't cinematic. And I don't know who,
but you know, on the other side of the monitors
like we have to go again. And Steve got up
and he remember he fought for it. He's like, no,
this is better. It's not it's not slick, it's not cool.
It's they look terrible, but it's funny, you know. And
(20:43):
I was so glad too reasons because I agreed with
him and the others, like I really didn't want to
get wet again because that water was so cold. It
was such a shock when it opened up. Yeah, well,
and I just remember that um that the it's how
life is right, like everything is not. It's not the
(21:04):
perfect moment that you that you assume that it's going
to be. And even though it is this beautiful moment
with the candles, like there's something that's going to screw
it up of course. Yeah, but that's the life I
prefer to live in. Like weird is good to me.
Odd is really good to me. You know, that's what
makes me laugh through life that just things slightly off kilter. Yeah. Well,
(21:30):
I think the moment that always like anytime I see it,
and I felt it as a human being in the
moment that it happened when he says I'm going to
Colorado and Kevin says all of us right because with Michael,
we all must go right because that's how to us.
(21:51):
Michael is the office that Yeah, but because of you
there there's that transition there, you know. I think when
you've find true love and nothing else matters, so like
his old in ways aren't necessary, but you know, eventually
he finds his true family, which is you. Yeah, that's me. Yeah, you. Um,
(22:34):
there's a question that I've been asking everybody, Um, not everyone.
I didn't think about it until halfway through. But um,
when Michael Scott left to go be with you, there
was obviously a hole on the show. And the question
is what do you feel like was the bigger loss,
(22:55):
Steve Correll or Michael Scott? Well, what do you may
be your question? If there you mean if Michael, Well,
that Steve was you know, as you mentioned before, he
is just such a good and loving person and really
was the head of the ship. Oh yeah, right in
(23:18):
terms of the whole cast, Like when he left, don't
I don't know if you know this. We retired his
jersey like literally number one on the call sheet did
not exist he left. He certainly set the right energy
of being the lead of the show. I feel like
he brought out the best in everybody because he's so
(23:38):
kind and he's so generous, and I feel like, um,
I'll use myself an example. One morning because we had
those early morning makeup sessions like four report in the
morning and uh, Steve said, he's like, how are you?
I said, tired? You know, got up like minutes before
(24:00):
the alarm and I drove over the hill and I
think a Starbucks wasn't open. He goes, oh, poor, you
like being paid a lot of money. They come beyond
a hit show. I was like, oh, yeah, right, you guys,
don't complain out in l a in New York. This
is our good morning check. But you know, he was
(24:26):
being playful obviously, but it was like a reminder of
like this tube will pass, and you know remember that
because you might not have it so good one day. Right.
Well you you came in ultimately to be a love
interest for Michael. But I have to tell you the
storyline between you and I on the show. Um gets
(24:48):
talked about a lot, and I think in the history
of table reads that we had on the show, it
was never more laughed because of how long that Joe
used to set up. And you know when I get
asked now about moments in the entire show where I
(25:09):
could not stop laughing, was Hugh and the button is
literally if you with the change Nickel, this is this
is a button. And there was something about the sweetness
on your face and you just very genuinely explaining to
Kevin that this was a button made me smile every
(25:31):
single time. And I was like, I can't do it,
and they're right there with the cam like I can't
do it, And basically then just turned it into a
grin to say I'm gonna I'm gonna bang you, but
that Yeah, do you think that story could play now?
I mean, there's so much of the Office that I
(25:52):
don't know if it could play now. Um, it's interesting.
So I just happened to watch that episode because my
ten year old he and all her friends at school
are really into the Office and my daughter is a
little behind the rest of her friends because I think
it's weird for her. But but anyway, so watching my
husband Eric and I like we're just out of her eyeline.
(26:14):
But here comes your line like I'm totally going to
bang her, and you know, I'm like, we look at
each other, like then you look over at her face.
Does she registered that, you know? No, because somehow it's
going right over their head, I think, or she maybe
she doesn't, you know? Um, I mean I don't know.
I think I hope a lot of it still plays
(26:37):
because I think it's well intentioned. I don't think we
were cruel statistic people on this show. I mean, but
the stuff that doesn't play, it's interesting to think about
as we all think we're like well intentioned, liberal minded,
caring people, and the stuff that we didn't pay attention to.
(26:58):
And so you know, you're asking me, is it okay
to make fun of a person who we think is
mentally handicapped? Probably not, but it was really funny. Then
so what do we do with it? Like, you know,
I don't know where that lives. Um, I certainly don't
want to offend anybody. I mean, I think the joke
(27:21):
is upon the person who made the mistake, you know
what I mean, Like, it's how could Holly be that
thick or or that well, you know white? Really, I
mean that it's really that it's Dwight who But I'm
I'm in the middle there of not using my own
good judgment or maybe asking for a second opinion or
(27:42):
you know, I mean, we all we're all judgmental. We
say we don't, but we judge everybody that walks down
the block, you know, in our heads, in a little
private tapes in our head. Um, why do you think,
I mean, part of why we're doing this exploration is
we haven't owned anything in six years, and essentially, by
(28:05):
almost any measure, now, The Office is the most watched
show on television. Why well, I think I think these
are relatable characters and First of all, it's funny, so
that's what's holding up through time. The writing is funny,
and it's a really great uh ensemble of actors and
(28:29):
uh what you know, you look back at what what
old show like I love Lucy's Still Hands holds up
you know. Um, it's funny and it's not about like,
um pop culture, you know, which obviously fades away. We
don't understand the references over time, we forget them and such.
(28:50):
I think also the culture of binge watching. It's you know,
it's written well for that. It's written well for that,
you know. Um, you know, I have friends who tell
me their kids watch it as really like also a
soothing effect if they're having a bad day, they go
and they pop in the office and it lifts them. Right.
(29:10):
Why do you think that is? It's about paper salesman? Right? Well,
I don't know. Maybe there's that you know joy we
get in knowing like, well, at least my life isn't that.
It's interesting though, the fact that we are employees at
(29:31):
a paper company that actually make a living doing one
job with a specific small Because now if you're selling paper,
you're working at staples or you're just getting it from
Amazon or whatever like that. That that sort of like
office community, that that group. Whether you like the people
(29:52):
or don't like the people, it's still a community. Well
maybe that's it's also community is the key word. Maybe
not so much like I could be in a job
for the next three years and get my pension. I
don't know if people are really dreaming about that, but
I think you're right. A community and this is such
a world where everyone is expressing their emogens, emogens, emotion
(30:13):
emotions with emojis and um, you know, connecting with people,
even misconnecting, you know, like the conflict is probably interesting
and fun and enviewable. Yeah, well you I mean you
talked about Paul being a fan of yours on the Wire.
I mean, it cannot come as a surprise that everyone
(30:36):
who was on set was such a huge fan of
yours and the Wire and the fact that it seems
like the whole ensemble for the Wire and going on
to it's one point or other. It was like, how
can we think of a way to go? Do we do? We? Do?
We need to go to the docks? Is there docks
(30:57):
near Scraping? Yeah? Um, but anyway, I uh, yeah, thanks
for coming and talking to me. My pleasure. It's so
good to see you again. It's so good to see you. Yeah,
I will tell you. You know, I go to college
campuses and I'll talk and and I know that all
(31:19):
people want if they want, they want to hear it.
They want to hear Kevin. Yes. And just so you know,
it almost always comes out as I'm totally going to
bang Holly. That's it. That's it. Two hundred and six episodes,
two hundred and six episodes. No, but I'm saying that's
(31:41):
the line. Maybe maybe you'll update it for this generation
and you'll say, with her permission, yes, but it's funny
that that is, uh, that's always the line. Oh, thank
you so much. Well, there you have it. Thank you
(32:13):
Amy so much for coming in to sit down with me. Luckily,
I am pretty sure I do not need Amy's permission
to say that was one of the most delightful half
hours of my life. That's what she said. Anyway, I
hope you all feel the same way. Thank you all
for listening, have a wonderful week, and I will see
(32:35):
you next time for another episode of the Office Deep Dive.
The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by
me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior
producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias, our
(33:00):
associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is
Die goo Topia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by seth Olansky
I'm Amy Ryan and I played Holly Flax on The Office. Hello, Hello, everyone,
welcome to another installment of the Office Deep Dive. I
am your host, Brian bond Gardner. I hope you're doing
(00:27):
very well today, and if you're not well, I think
I'm about to change that because my guest on the
podcast today is the truly extraordinary Amy Ryan. Now I
have to come clean about something here, Okay. When Amy
(00:47):
Ryan showed up on the set of the Office for
the first time, I freaked out a little bit because
I am a huge Amy Ryan fan. If you have
not seen her work prior to the Office, you should
Season two of The Wire Genius. Her Oscar nominated performance
(01:07):
in Gone, Baby Gone is so heartbreaking and amazing. Now,
I interviewed Amy in New York right after my interview
with Paul Feig, and partly because we live on opposite coasts,
I had not seen Amy in such a long time,
many years in fact, and immediately boom, I'm just so
(01:31):
happy to see her again. I have this special place
in my heart for Amy, and what's amazing to me
is that so many people have a special place in
their heart for Amy, even though she only appeared in
fifteen of our two hundred plus episodes. I mean, I
(01:52):
could imagine a world where people were not so fond
of Amy and the character she played, because basically she's
the reason that Michael left the office. Right. But Amy
was so undeniably perfect and wonderful as Holly that you
just couldn't help falling in love with her. Plus she
(02:12):
and I, for better or worse, we are linked together
forever because of the very special Kevin Holly storyline, which
well you'll hear us get into shortly. Anyway, am I am?
I gushing? I'm gushing. I can't help it, Ladies and gentlemen,
Here she is Amy, Ryan, Bubble and Squeak. I love it,
(02:40):
Bubble and squeak, Bubble and Squeaker, cooking every month, lift
over from the night before. So I was here and
(03:02):
we were thank you anything else. I'm okay, thank yousus.
What's on the list. There's nothing but beverages on this table.
I don't know, Hidrake, I'm caffeinating. I was here very briefly.
I saw John Um, they let me get rid of
(03:27):
these Paul things, just get rid of it. And then yeah,
Paul was I think he's doing a pilot and then
a movie back to back. So he was like, you
can come to New York or else you in May
or something like that. I'll come back. That's great. Yes,
(03:49):
how are you good? Really good? Yeah? Um? Alright, So
before you were cast, did you watch the show? My
My History The Office started with my neighbor Noline Burke,
who came home from Ireland visiting her family with the
(04:10):
British series. She said, this is a really funny show.
You have to watch it, and she had, you know,
like the DVD pal or whatever. So I was full
on in convert from the Ricky Gervais series. Then I
heard they were making an American version and I thought
that was just blasphemous. Why why can't they just import
(04:31):
the show? Why do we import our shows or export
our shows there? But we Americans need to remake something
that's perfect, And I thought it was the worst idea ever.
And then I started seeing the cast assembled. I was like, oh,
this is going to be funny, and it was. And
(04:52):
I watched the American version happily. Um, and then I thought,
like I I enjoy comedy. I never I'm not good
at the four cameras sitcom thing. I can't land the
boom boom, the whatever. But I when I saw The Office,
I was like, oh, this is character based comedy. This
(05:15):
is not rhythm. I mean, there are some rhythms and
of course, but like it's not so dependent on that joke.
And then the alternative punchline for that joke that all
the writers stand around writing and let me get it.
That is like too stressful for me. So anyway the Office,
I felt like, Okay, here's the world I could fit
(05:35):
into in terms of building a character. And there, you know,
everything is life for death for them. So what was
the process of you being cast on the show? Did
they approached you to come in? That was the year
I was nominated for an Oscar for Gone, Baby Gone,
and I remember saying to my agent, half joking but
(05:56):
not really, I was like, you know, if we have
any role right now, I want to cash it in
on the Office. I had not heard that, yeah, and
he's like okay. And apparently simultaneously, Paul Lieberstein, who I
had known from sitcom many many years earlier, called the
(06:17):
Naked Truth that he was writing on knew of me
but also as a fan of the Wire, And so
I think I'm not sure who called first, but I
think both were, Like there was a coincidence of timing
that in that case. So so I showed up, like
what are you doing here? Why? Anyway? I I felt
(06:42):
very very confident in my decision that this is where
I wanted to be next because a lot of all,
you know, a lot of the opportunities as well, Like
there's not much imagination once you maybe poked through with
a role. You know, as you may know from your
own experience, like people like, great, we have this new
role for you, and she's a drug addicted mother. You're like,
(07:03):
you mean, like the one I just played. Okay, that
doesn't sound like so much fun. For a while, playing
someone intelligent was not coming to me surprisingly, isn't that frustrating?
It so so? But making those hard right turns and
giving other people whiplash is what I was after, Like
(07:24):
it's so certainly like going to a comedy and just
being well groomed in a role, you know, So I
was I was really grateful for that that they thought
it was a good idea too. So when you were cast,
did you at that moment have any idea of where
it was going to go? No, but I I understood
(07:48):
that I was there on a trial basis. I think
it was the last episode like Goodbye Toby. I came in,
and I think it was a pretty fancy addition, basically
like having not read for the role, like okay, if
this doesn't work out, because they said, like, you know,
maybe might might be love interest from Michael Scott. We're
(08:11):
not sure, but you know, we still have some ideas.
But yet again, there was the British version to kind
of go By, and there was that character I forget
her name, but where he finally found someone that the
affection was mutual. But then I believe that about that
part is I think where it stopped, like the comparison,
So I knew it was a little up in the
air and depended on how well I did. I mean,
(08:32):
it felt very welcome by all you guys. But there
is a weird thing about being a fan of a
show and then being employed by that show. I remember
doing it, like one episode of e Er back in
the day, like shocked that the hallway was so little
that they did all that choreography of like running through
with gurneys and such, and you know, the wire was
(08:53):
the same thing like being a big fan of the
show and then joining the company in the second season,
it was it's it takes a minute. You're just like
calm down right, No, No, Well, being a guest star
is a very difficult thing. You're the transfer student from
another school. Totally. Yeah, well, who's going to sit with
me at lunch? Were you were? You? Were you nervous
(09:17):
when you walked onto set the first time? I was nervous.
I can tell because my head is tilted down like this,
and because because my daughter just watched that episode, and
so having the hindsight, like I was like, oh, yeah, look,
you're not like standing up straight. Yeah, just that little
till to the head, like maybe no one will notice
(09:40):
if I mess up. And then I was, And then
you know, a lot of that quickly subsided because the
nature of being on the offices, you are a main
character and an extra all in one. Right. You are
in the background every scene if you don't have spoken lines.
And I remember were being positioned by one of the
(10:02):
low file cabinets and pretending to go through papers, and
kind of shock is all that those papers were like
old medical records. Yeah, I thought, oh my god, this
is somebody's it's also security number, this is somebody's medical history.
This is just shocked anyway, Yeah, they recycle. That was
(10:26):
Kate flannering I talked about, which I had forgotten. Get
a shredder, people shred your stuff. You might end up
a prop on the office exactly. Your chemistry with Steve
(10:59):
from the beginning thing is amazing. Did you guys have
a discussion. I mean, you were a fan of the show,
so you knew his character very well. But how much
of that was a discussion about you know, potentially Holly
being the female version of him or is that how
it was described or no, Um, it wasn't described that way,
(11:22):
but you know, just in the writing, I mean, it
was so generous of the writers too offer me those tidbits,
whether it was like rapping with him or you know,
the Yoda saying clearly they're saying she is of like kinfolk.
And then just as an actors like, well, I can't
(11:44):
do you know Steve's bit like I can't and even
if I tried, I couldn't. But like, how do you
make it the same but different? You know? Um? And
I just I just love that idea that there's a
lid for every pot. You know, I was, I don't
know my really want to admit this. But after however,
many years playing different parts and theater and other TV
(12:07):
and film, I get a call from my high school boyfriend.
He's like, well, I'm so glad you're finally playing yourself.
Really Yeah, and I can't really deny that. Yeah, yeah,
(12:27):
that's amazing. My my like nerdy, geeky side was on
the rise. Yeah. So drug adult single mother. Oh no,
that's part of that's that's the other side of my personality.
I like to keep it balanced, don't pigeonhole me. You
(12:49):
had worked with Steve before, very briefly, yeah or um. So,
Steve started a film called Dan in real life, and PETERR.
Hedges wrote and directed. Peter's an old friend of mine
and I have really teeny tiny part in there, playing
his sister in law. It's a big extended family and
Peter got together a bunch of his New York actor friends.
(13:09):
We all were up in Rhode Island for I don't know,
six eight weeks or so. Anyway, the whole company was
very close and that's where that's where I met Steve Um.
You know, just chit chatting. We really didn't have any
scenes together and stuff like that, but I don't I
don't know. I got asked that a lot about what's
the chemistry with Steve, and I have to say, I
have to give him credit for being the most grounded,
(13:31):
down to earth creative genius that um you can dream of,
because he's got a really good thing going on, and
he he isn't subliminally subliminally like I can. I want
to change that work as who can say subliminally. He
(13:53):
is in no way saying back up, let me do
my thing. I've experienced that on sets with other actors,
like they're they're not even really looking at you or
you know, they can do it all. They don't even
need you off camera for their close up. But Steve,
and I guess that's his early days, you know, improv
being with a group. He's so generous, and I always
(14:17):
thought it was weird. He'd be like the first one
to be like, that's so funny. He'd tell everyone like
how funny they were, you know, and you just like
just your shoulders dropped a little bit. You're like a
little more relaxed each time. But I don't know. I
did say to him one time, I said, I know
this sounds really flaky, but um, I really feel like
I've known you before in my life, and he said
I feel the same. So I think it was just
(14:37):
about trust and just having fun. Like so you were
there and then you left. And it's interesting because you know,
you talk about Jim and Pam, their relationship played just
very purely, and then all of Michael's relationships played essentially
(14:57):
totally for comedy, at least until Holly, you know, like
the Carol, the real estate agents and Jan that was
like so preposterous and terrible. But I think for me,
even though you guys were so close and that chemistry
was there in my head, you left and it went away,
(15:19):
like it went away. And for some reason the Herpies
episode where he calls you, I suddenly went, oh, this
is it, Like this is this is where they're going.
Where were you in terms of discussion about you coming
back or did you say no? Where? No? We left
it open and I'd love to come. But for me,
(15:40):
it was also about location. I live in New York
and I love being in New York, so I didn't
want to relocate to Los Angeles. But I was happy
to come and go. And then also in that time
then I was pregnant and had my daughter Georgia, So
so there was a big chunk off while that was happening. Yeah,
(16:00):
where do you feel like Michael's search for the American dream?
You know, happiness, success, family? You know that that that's
all he's looking for and nobody will give it to
him except d whit that he doesn't want anything but
that it becomes the people that are in this office
(16:23):
until until you come along. How do you feel like
that transition for him his character happened or how did
you see it? Well? I don't know if I can
speak so clearly about Michael in that way, but um,
I just feel like, maybe you know, Michael just became
(16:43):
just a happier person, and you know, he's still crazy,
That's what I still like, Like he still makes really
bad choices along the way and things that make other
people cringe. Like it's not like suddenly Holly comes and
spreads this magic pixie dust on him and he's like
a normal person. But she got a little of that too,
so it's it's permissible in their world. Um I I
(17:06):
think you know, when I'm stopped or asked questions. You know,
if it's someone on the street or I just I'm
always amazed at how much like they root for a
guy they don't like and they're so glad he met me,
you know that, or you home and I love that.
That's all in conflict with each other. Um So what
(17:27):
does what does Holly mean? From Michael? I mean, it's
a guy who's just so so desperate to have a
win somewhere in his life or to be that guy.
You know, he poses at that for so long and
then here's someone he doesn't have to work that hard
with for the I think the first time we see him,
(17:49):
or that we've known him rather and I don't know,
maybe that it's it's all gonna be okay, like if
there's one phrase to it, like, you know, we all
matter the end of the day, we all matter. There's
there is someone for you and if you don't feel
good along the way, then you you're just with the
wrong person. And maybe that sounds easier said than done.
(18:09):
There's someone single alone being Yeah, you know, thanks thanks
for that advice, sing me Ryan, you suck like I
think I think there's um, I guess progress. It's the
word he's gotten out of his own way. Yeah, but
I think that in the show. On the show, all
of the characters, you bring up a really interesting point
(18:31):
that people haven't talked to you so much, but so
much is about just wanting to win one just having
that one success, be it in work or in life
or in love or whatever. And Holly really is that
for him? Yeah? Yeah, and he didn't have to work
(18:52):
that hard for it. I mean she was in as
fast as he was pretty much. So you know that's
that's also on to see him get knocked back a bit, right,
He can more be himself. Isn't to stalk a woman
to date her. He doesn't have to pose. Yeah, And
then of course we all feared his viewers if you say, like,
(19:13):
what does this mean for the show? Is he leaving
the show with what? No? No? What? Back up? Back up?
Back up? You know that proposal? When I had to
walk down the line of everybody holding candles, I couldn't
stop crying. I thought it was one of those things
where it's like I had to tell meself, like this
isn't real. But there's something about everybody's face, like looking
(19:36):
so lovingly and they can't like it. Was such a
beautiful setting. But I had to I had to tell myself, like,
these are actors, you're not getting married, but it's like
any wedding, Like, oh, it makes me cry. I've often
I've often said there was something about that that seen
(20:01):
that water comes, you know, the sprinklers coming down, that um,
I don't know, what's so sort of beautiful and moving
to me. I Steve directed that episode and I remember,
you know, the water being such a big effect and
that first take, which is what's in the show because
it was shocking and it was cold and it was
(20:21):
goofy and it wasn't cinematic. And I don't know who,
but you know, on the other side of the monitors
like we have to go again. And Steve got up
and he remember he fought for it. He's like, no,
this is better. It's not it's not slick, it's not cool.
It's they look terrible, but it's funny, you know. And
(20:43):
I was so glad too reasons because I agreed with
him and the others, like I really didn't want to
get wet again because that water was so cold. It
was such a shock when it opened up. Yeah, well,
and I just remember that um that the it's how
life is right, like everything is not. It's not the
(21:04):
perfect moment that you that you assume that it's going
to be. And even though it is this beautiful moment
with the candles, like there's something that's going to screw
it up of course. Yeah, but that's the life I
prefer to live in. Like weird is good to me.
Odd is really good to me. You know, that's what
makes me laugh through life that just things slightly off kilter. Yeah. Well,
(21:30):
I think the moment that always like anytime I see it,
and I felt it as a human being in the
moment that it happened when he says I'm going to
Colorado and Kevin says all of us right because with Michael,
we all must go right because that's how to us.
(21:51):
Michael is the office that Yeah, but because of you
there there's that transition there, you know. I think when
you've find true love and nothing else matters, so like
his old in ways aren't necessary, but you know, eventually
he finds his true family, which is you. Yeah, that's me. Yeah, you. Um,
(22:34):
there's a question that I've been asking everybody, Um, not everyone.
I didn't think about it until halfway through. But um,
when Michael Scott left to go be with you, there
was obviously a hole on the show. And the question
is what do you feel like was the bigger loss,
(22:55):
Steve Correll or Michael Scott? Well, what do you may
be your question? If there you mean if Michael, Well,
that Steve was you know, as you mentioned before, he
is just such a good and loving person and really
was the head of the ship. Oh yeah, right in
(23:18):
terms of the whole cast, Like when he left, don't
I don't know if you know this. We retired his
jersey like literally number one on the call sheet did
not exist he left. He certainly set the right energy
of being the lead of the show. I feel like
he brought out the best in everybody because he's so
(23:38):
kind and he's so generous, and I feel like, um,
I'll use myself an example. One morning because we had
those early morning makeup sessions like four report in the
morning and uh, Steve said, he's like, how are you?
I said, tired? You know, got up like minutes before
(24:00):
the alarm and I drove over the hill and I
think a Starbucks wasn't open. He goes, oh, poor, you
like being paid a lot of money. They come beyond
a hit show. I was like, oh, yeah, right, you guys,
don't complain out in l a in New York. This
is our good morning check. But you know, he was
(24:26):
being playful obviously, but it was like a reminder of
like this tube will pass, and you know remember that
because you might not have it so good one day. Right.
Well you you came in ultimately to be a love
interest for Michael. But I have to tell you the
storyline between you and I on the show. Um gets
(24:48):
talked about a lot, and I think in the history
of table reads that we had on the show, it
was never more laughed because of how long that Joe
used to set up. And you know when I get
asked now about moments in the entire show where I
(25:09):
could not stop laughing, was Hugh and the button is
literally if you with the change Nickel, this is this
is a button. And there was something about the sweetness
on your face and you just very genuinely explaining to
Kevin that this was a button made me smile every
(25:31):
single time. And I was like, I can't do it,
and they're right there with the cam like I can't
do it, And basically then just turned it into a
grin to say I'm gonna I'm gonna bang you, but
that Yeah, do you think that story could play now?
I mean, there's so much of the Office that I
(25:52):
don't know if it could play now. Um, it's interesting.
So I just happened to watch that episode because my
ten year old he and all her friends at school
are really into the Office and my daughter is a
little behind the rest of her friends because I think
it's weird for her. But but anyway, so watching my
husband Eric and I like we're just out of her eyeline.
(26:14):
But here comes your line like I'm totally going to
bang her, and you know, I'm like, we look at
each other, like then you look over at her face.
Does she registered that, you know? No, because somehow it's
going right over their head, I think, or she maybe
she doesn't, you know? Um, I mean I don't know.
I think I hope a lot of it still plays
(26:37):
because I think it's well intentioned. I don't think we
were cruel statistic people on this show. I mean, but
the stuff that doesn't play, it's interesting to think about
as we all think we're like well intentioned, liberal minded,
caring people, and the stuff that we didn't pay attention to.
(26:58):
And so you know, you're asking me, is it okay
to make fun of a person who we think is
mentally handicapped? Probably not, but it was really funny. Then
so what do we do with it? Like, you know,
I don't know where that lives. Um, I certainly don't
want to offend anybody. I mean, I think the joke
(27:21):
is upon the person who made the mistake, you know
what I mean, Like, it's how could Holly be that
thick or or that well, you know white? Really, I
mean that it's really that it's Dwight who But I'm
I'm in the middle there of not using my own
good judgment or maybe asking for a second opinion or
(27:42):
you know, I mean, we all we're all judgmental. We
say we don't, but we judge everybody that walks down
the block, you know, in our heads, in a little
private tapes in our head. Um, why do you think,
I mean, part of why we're doing this exploration is
we haven't owned anything in six years, and essentially, by
(28:05):
almost any measure, now, The Office is the most watched
show on television. Why well, I think I think these
are relatable characters and First of all, it's funny, so
that's what's holding up through time. The writing is funny,
and it's a really great uh ensemble of actors and
(28:29):
uh what you know, you look back at what what
old show like I love Lucy's Still Hands holds up
you know. Um, it's funny and it's not about like,
um pop culture, you know, which obviously fades away. We
don't understand the references over time, we forget them and such.
(28:50):
I think also the culture of binge watching. It's you know,
it's written well for that. It's written well for that,
you know. Um, you know, I have friends who tell
me their kids watch it as really like also a
soothing effect if they're having a bad day, they go
and they pop in the office and it lifts them. Right.
(29:10):
Why do you think that is? It's about paper salesman? Right? Well,
I don't know. Maybe there's that you know joy we
get in knowing like, well, at least my life isn't that.
It's interesting though, the fact that we are employees at
(29:31):
a paper company that actually make a living doing one
job with a specific small Because now if you're selling paper,
you're working at staples or you're just getting it from
Amazon or whatever like that. That that sort of like
office community, that that group. Whether you like the people
(29:52):
or don't like the people, it's still a community. Well
maybe that's it's also community is the key word. Maybe
not so much like I could be in a job
for the next three years and get my pension. I
don't know if people are really dreaming about that, but
I think you're right. A community and this is such
a world where everyone is expressing their emogens, emogens, emotion
(30:13):
emotions with emojis and um, you know, connecting with people,
even misconnecting, you know, like the conflict is probably interesting
and fun and enviewable. Yeah, well you I mean you
talked about Paul being a fan of yours on the Wire.
I mean, it cannot come as a surprise that everyone
(30:36):
who was on set was such a huge fan of
yours and the Wire and the fact that it seems
like the whole ensemble for the Wire and going on
to it's one point or other. It was like, how
can we think of a way to go? Do we do? We? Do?
We need to go to the docks? Is there docks
(30:57):
near Scraping? Yeah? Um, but anyway, I uh, yeah, thanks
for coming and talking to me. My pleasure. It's so
good to see you again. It's so good to see you. Yeah,
I will tell you. You know, I go to college
campuses and I'll talk and and I know that all
(31:19):
people want if they want, they want to hear it.
They want to hear Kevin. Yes. And just so you know,
it almost always comes out as I'm totally going to
bang Holly. That's it. That's it. Two hundred and six episodes,
two hundred and six episodes. No, but I'm saying that's
(31:41):
the line. Maybe maybe you'll update it for this generation
and you'll say, with her permission, yes, but it's funny
that that is, uh, that's always the line. Oh, thank
you so much. Well, there you have it. Thank you
(32:13):
Amy so much for coming in to sit down with me. Luckily,
I am pretty sure I do not need Amy's permission
to say that was one of the most delightful half
hours of my life. That's what she said. Anyway, I
hope you all feel the same way. Thank you all
for listening, have a wonderful week, and I will see
(32:35):
you next time for another episode of the Office Deep Dive.
The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by
me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior
producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias, our
(33:00):
associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is
Die goo Topia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by seth Olansky
Host
Brian Baumgartner
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