September 14, 2021 • 57 mins
Continuing our celebration of women of The Office, Brian talks to editor-turned director extraordinaire Claire Scanlon. She explains what it was like working with a room full of comedy giants, reveals the scene that was cut from the Finale, and discusses her illustrious television alma mater - a Master’s from the University of Greg Daniels.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
We can say whatever you want. Your name and what
you are on the Office. My name is Claire Scanlon
and I was an editor on the Office from season
five for five years through the finale. That was so
long I can see. Okay, my name is Claire Scanlon
and I was an editor on the Office. Hello everyone,
(00:36):
that just made me laugh. Welcome back to the Office
deep Dive where we dive deep into the Office. As
the title indicates, I am your host, Brian Bonm Gartner.
Today I have the absolute pleasure and privilege of bringing
you my conversation with the one and only Claire ski
(01:00):
end Lyn. Oh she's just great. Just wait, um. Claire
was an editor on our show, a great one. In fact,
she won an Emmy for editing the final episode. But
one thing that was so special about the Office, and
I know I've talked about this, but but you really
you need to understand just how rare it is. There
(01:22):
was a synergy, a real synergy between all of the
members of the cast and of the crew. Everyone talked
to everyone, everyone had input and value. Everyone could try
on a new hat if they wanted. Even I a
lowly actor, I could walk right up to the writer's
(01:44):
room and tell them what I thought about something, or
the editors area, the editing bay as we call it,
and I have real conversations with Claire or with our
other amazing editor, Dave Rodgers about the show. So ideas
came from all different people, all of the time, right
up until the very end. So the fact that Claire
(02:04):
and I even have a relationship, her as an editor
and me as an actor, that speaks to the extra
special specialness of our set. And speaking of people taking
on different roles, well, Claire also directed a couple of
episodes of The Office, Yes, her first ever directing job,
(02:25):
which of course has launched her into a full blown
directing career. Yeah, Claire is kind of a big deal.
If you watch television, there is no doubt you have
seen something she has done, maybe The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt
or Brooklyn nine nine, or The Mindy Project or her
recent film Set It Up. Oh, and did I mention
(02:48):
that she won an Emmy for editing the finale of
the Office. She's just too good. She's too good at
at everything. Anyway, you will understand how stoked I was
to get to see her and to talk to her.
It was truly my pleasure. Here is my friend, the
incredibly multi talented and impossibly brilliant Claire Scandling. Bubble and Squeak.
(03:19):
I love it, Bubble and squeak on Bubble and Squeaker
cookie every moment left over from the nubb before. How
(03:44):
are you good? God? Golfing? What's going on? Why is
it always about golfing? Working card outside? We can That's
what I was, right, well, um, oh my gosh, how
(04:06):
are you good? Good? Really good? I was like teasing.
I was like this because in the emails, like conveniently located,
I'm like Greg, and I brought a ton of pictures too,
and yeah, yeah, it was really actually fun going to
I haven't weirdly, I have a lot of pictures of you. Really.
(04:26):
I was just like, I was, it's time to tell
you the truth that I was totally obsessed with you
and stopped you. You just didn't know what I did
it very surreptitiously. Really. Yeah, see your pictures. I know
I'm pulling pulling them up right now. The office. Um,
there's one just that's like a rap some and you
(04:49):
in the middle. This is like one of our story boards,
you know, just like classic office storyboard. That's the very
last next session, that's for the finality. Yeah, that's Matt,
So in case you couldn't recognize him, he was Colonel Sanders,
which having had just worked on I'm trying to be
(05:13):
trying to be very diplomatic about this, but having just
worked on another handheld show, it makes you really appreciate
Matt and Sarah's work because it's such a skill, it's
such an art, and so few people can do it well.
So few. Well, it's crazy because they came from reality. Yes,
(05:34):
but they knew how to construct the story. They knew
not to go to you guys until you started speaking,
which is such a palletic, artful thing that they never
got credit for her because no one appreciates the storytelling
they were doing and understanding the level of difficulty except
other camera operators that would come and work on the
show and fail. The editors really knew it, and the
(05:56):
other people who tried and couldn't do it would like
cut to you and be like, no, he Kevin hasn't
spoken yet. You can't cut to Kevin because how do
these the documentary filmmaker know that Kevin's going to speak? Right?
I talked with Matt about this also, and I'd kind
of forgotten about this. Really. The only way they cheated
was they would have us do handles occasionally, right, So
(06:16):
like Michael, yes, just to give them a reason to
get over there, always looking for the reason right right
that he knew to do. That was awesome. Do you
feel like was editing on the Office more or less
difficult because of the way that it was. Because it
(06:38):
was incredibly difficult. It was not easier than a more
studio style Hollywood typical Hollywood sitcom or single camp show,
much much more difficult. But that said, you had so
much creativity and so much leeway. I think because Greg
and Paul Engen really respected the editor, the act of editing,
(07:04):
the storytelling of editing, they gave so much leeway. So
and they and especially Greg was not reverential with his
scripts and himself as well, like when he would come
into post, like take that talking head from act one
and put it in three. And I remember doing casual
Fridays and it was kind of too many storylines, way
too long, and I was like, you know, this one
(07:28):
needs how I was like, I don't know, you know,
I had cut this behemoth, you know, towards the end,
they were all getting to be like forty minute long
episodes and you're cutting a show out of the show.
But this one in particular, I felt like, I don't
know what we're going to do. And he was just genius,
Like there was one Kelly Poor story that just became
like almost like two shots and it was just like
(07:48):
a little pop and it was so good as a
result of it, and he just moved stuff every which way.
Once he sees that your boss is doing that, it
kind of gives you a freer hand to do it yourself,
right Because I came on season five, so that's a
great point. So before you started you were editing documentaries.
(08:10):
This was the very first scripted television show I ever edited, period,
So I like literally went from no scripted to the
number one company. It was just like, wow, try by
fire first, one go for it. I knew that if
I didn't do a good job, I wouldn't get as back.
Like it was that simple. And Dave Rogers was amazing
(08:32):
and he always would watch my cuts, but initially especially
with me, like this is what we do. Stays, don't
cut away, don't pre lab stay on the joke, till
the end, you know, like that was just something it
would take kind of just like a more seasoned person
to know. But then in other ways, I think because
of my background, I was very comfortable with all of
the shooting style, whereas I think other editors that would
(08:53):
come on would be like, WHOA, what the heck? Um?
I remember my job interview with Gen Sila out of
Mike Sure, Paul Eversen, and Greg Daniel, so not an
intimidating group at all to be interviewing me. I literally
like almost knew too little to be intimidated, Like I
should have been shaking that group, like, but I almost was.
(09:15):
Just like I knew Paul socially from in our twenties.
I knew him when he was writing. Clarissa explains it
all personally. So what happened was a good friend of mine,
Grady Cooper, who ended up editing quipond Um. He said, Hey, Claire,
I heard there's a spinoff of the Office. Would you
mind putting my name in the hat and giving it
to Paul? And I called Paul and said, hey, my
(09:37):
friend wants to put his name in the hat for
the new show. And he's like, well, what about you.
I was like what and he's like, what about you
don't want to put your name in the hat? You're
an editor too, And I said, okay, I never It
just didn't even cross my mind that I would even
have a chance. So Paul was conspicuously quiet in that
meaning because I knew him, you know, socially. And I
met Greg and Suzanne at Paul's birthday party one year.
(10:00):
I think, um, and to me, they were like the
grown ups, which is so funny. They were like the
perhaps they had a kid already like I was in
my twenties, and they were just so mature. They were
so mature, and I remember thinking like, oh, that's the
dad when I went into the interview, like that, he's
a dad. And so I met with them. I said,
(10:21):
I don't have any narrative editing background. I don't have
I'm not this isn't my forte and I come from documentary.
In fact, I've worked with a lot of your camera
operators because we were all under the same roof at
Mark Burnett Productions, and um, guys like that's a plus
that you've never done narrative. And I do come from documentary.
I don't really come as much from reality. I've done
(10:42):
tons of docs before and weirdly docks on comedians. Um,
I gravitated towards like Carol Burnett, a woman of character,
carry grant a class apart Bob new Harden button and
it didn't. I didn't set out with comedy in mind
when I was I just kind of veered that way,
like just like I don't know, it's kind of follow
my lap that way. So Greg was very keen on
the fact that I hadn't come up through the system,
(11:05):
and I can see now in retrospect why that wasn't
attractive quality, just and that you do thwart the script structure,
which is like the script is Bible, and no other
show runner lets you do that, Like can you imagine
being on another show saying, oh, I put that three
even though you wrote it in act one. But Greg
two was also very reverential to the script on set.
(11:28):
You know, if a director didn't shoot the words, he
was pissed. But all fund runs. Improv is great, but
you better have gotten at least one or two takes
with the scripted. And then in post he didn't care
like and post he's like, let me see it the
way it was written, Okay, now let's throw everything up
in the air and start over again, which was so liberating,
(11:49):
and I think that's also what led to just a
whole level of another layer of comedy that other shows
didn't have that opportunity for. Like, you couldn't have done
what we did with the b roll and the talking
I mean, you could take a show that was way
too long, if it was too much exposition, you just
had someone do a talking head, and then you could
(12:10):
delve right into the scene mid scene. You could just
get rid of so much of the shoe leather. So
it was just such an unusual show that way. I
think obviously that mockumentary style worked because it worked for
Parks and rec and Modern Family quite well. You know,
other shows really were able to take that on and
move forward with it. Yes, I mean, I don't know
(12:34):
that I would say better than The Office, but I
would just say it was clearly a format that worked
in comedy, and other comedies stemmed from that. I think
that for me, what's interesting is that we had rules
in terms of how the camera worked, things that we
were not allowed to break. Randall's talked about like, no,
(12:57):
I'm not going to do a shot if I can't
physically get it. If we have two cameras and one
cameras shooting from right behind Steve, then we can't shoot
Steve front on, or we would see the camera right
And he talked about one of Greg's sort of adages
early on was everything that makes it harder makes it better.
You know, if the angle wasn't perfect and you didn't
(13:19):
have everybody's face, that led led to the voyeurism and
the realness of it. And I think the show's after
the Office that emulated. Yeah, no Parkinson MC didn't quite
do it the same, which is fine. No, No, they
didn't do it. And I think Modern Family they did
a monitored family. I directed one, and I remember going
in and you know, it's essentially construct that very heavily
(13:44):
borrowed some you know, from the Office. I think they
would all be very comfortable saying that. And I remember
being like, well, let's get an over of cam doing this,
and then we don't do overs. It's basically a percinium.
It's a multi cam just with no audience, and that
you have two cameras only just shooting us on my circle.
It's just it was a very different way of shooting
very percent like being on stage, but they also don't
(14:06):
acknowledge that the cameras there except in the talk yeah yeah,
and the talking heads. I feel like Phil Dumpy sometimes
just stairs in the camera, but not like Guilty. I
feel like he's done that a couple of times. But
I'm no expert on modern family. I did one, but
I do think that well, I think there were so
many special things about the office that are unlike other
(14:28):
ones that have used that, you know, I think there
was a willingness to be ugly. I think that's why
the camera operators and the dps never got acknowledged, and
nobody was going out of their way to be not
under fluorescent lights. I mean, it was not a pretty set,
and if it was, it would have been weird. So
do you think they didn't get appreciated because I feel
(14:49):
like so. I worked with director of photographies all the time,
and you always want them on your side. Yet at
the same time it's a constant battle with comedy. When
I come onto a project, my goals, my objectives are
almost diametrically opposed to what the dp's job is. The
dp's job, especially if there's a woman in the scene
is to make her beautiful. Nothing else matters. Nothing. Whereas
(15:13):
when you said you had Randle in here and you
were talking about soon they understood and accepted the world
of the Office and the goal was comedy. Whereas I
find myself having to say, I need this scene cross covered.
I've got two comedy giants. Fill in the blank. On
the Office, it was everybody was a comedy giant. So
(15:34):
I have two comedy giants and I need I can't
anticipate what they're gonna do and say, like, I need
that coverage. What if one does something and there's an
electricity in the take and you cannot recreate that. I
don't care. When cutting the Mindy Project pilot, it was
Ed and Mindy in a scene and they did all
this beautiful studio style, but Ed and Mindy were griffing
and doing great fun runs and I was screwed. You know,
(15:57):
I was screwed. So I'm always pushing, especially when there's
such strong comedy people to cross cover, and a DP
will always fight. A typical DP that doesn't buy into
the comedy and the joy of what it is to
shoot comedy will always fight. But she's got to look beautiful.
She's got to be lit this way, and it's always
she for the most part. It's like I don't know
(16:19):
where it's taught in cinematography school, but all women must
be beautiful always at all times, like it's evil. Like
Carol Burnett never adhered to that, and she was the
number one person on television throughout the seventies, like think
about Unice Unite was hideous, and she was the first
to like make fun of her aesthetics. And yet she
(16:40):
could come out every evening and do her Q and
A and be gorgeous in a Bob mackiegown, you know.
So like you know, she could bring it if she
wanted to be beautiful, But where's the fun and that
I don't know. It's a struggle, it's and it's truly
a conversation I have to have every time, you know.
So I I just you caught me on a terror
(17:00):
on something that I feel very passionately about. And I
think coming up through the office where it was a given, Oh,
this doesn't look like right? Who cares? They're hilarious, Like
I don't care. You know, well, that's something that I think, well,
quite obviously, the face of television in a way began
to change with our show. Yeah, And I also think
(17:22):
the egalitarian nature of the Office was something wonderful and
desperately needed. And I think what was so wonderful is
how all the characters just very slightly and almost it
just seemed like so organically like it just seemed that
you sort of just started to fall in love with
the regular guy and the regular girl, you know, so
(17:44):
like and on the Office, the regular guy of the
regular girl could be Stanley and it could be Oscar.
And I think this was a time when you weren't
seeing that much diversity in primetime television, especially in comedy.
But see, it's interesting what you're saying right now. It
never felt intention No, that's what I'm saying. I think
it was like, well, I said slyly, but I don't
(18:05):
know that it was Greg or your intentions, the writer's
intention to be like, let's make America love the everyman.
This wasn't like Willie Lohman time. You know, I don't
think that that was their agenda. I do know, and
I'm sure Greg's talked about the differences between season one
and season two and the mandate, because I think that
was huge, you know, humanizing Michael in a way that
(18:26):
you needed to from season one, and I think even
though the mandate was specifically directed at Michael, this humanitarianism
kind of slipped down to all of the character. Yes
when yours with Holly of course is a famous one,
but like even someone is arch as Angela once in
a while, just seeing that glimpse of vulnerability and you
(18:48):
show me vulnerability, I'm on board with that character for life.
And I think the opposite that was every single person
practically on the show. Like I remember, I remember when
Ellie came on. She came on just a little after me,
and so we were kind of like the new girls.
And I didn't know how you guys introduced new characters.
I didn't know, like the writers just let them flounder
(19:09):
and they waited for the actor to show them who
they were. And it either worked her didn't. Obviously with
Ellie Kemper it worked. But I remember cutting Secretary's Day
and she had a scene where Michael took her like
Michael was very resistant but was told you gotta take
your secretary out to launch hot Secretary's Day, it's the rule.
And then she has a meltdown and I remember thinking like, oh,
(19:30):
she's going to make it because I didn't know, Like
I didn't hadn't seen much of her work before that.
She was given like, hi, I'm Aren. You know. It
was a great scene and she was definitely driving it,
and he was the reactor to everything that she was doing,
and she gave him great stuff to work with. And
in this I was like, she's got the chops. She
can play with Michael. I mean, she can play with
(19:51):
Steve Carrell, so she's gonna make it. So I think
that it was a very intimidate. I remember when Kathy
Bates came on, she was I hope this is okay
to say, but like we were cutting her first few
takes and her voice was a little warbly. She was
so nervous and she told you guys like and everyone
was like, you're freaking Oscar Winner, How are you nervous
(20:12):
to come play with us? You know this is a low,
this is a nice She's like, you don't get it,
you don't get it. And I think I feel like
even I don't know that any of us got it.
Because it was popular and I knew it was good.
I knew it made me feel something in my heart.
But just this whole like kids watching it now, and
I mean, it can only imagine what it's like to
be in your shoes, like not being able to watch
(20:35):
down the street. I don't even more so than when
it was on the air. Weird. It is weird, yeah,
And I think by the way, of course, it's she's
cant it's it wore off. You know, she's not the
when did you see on TV? The episodes don't have that,
but I just remember being bowled over by that and
how it seems so easy from the inside and then
(20:57):
coming in from the outside, How was it for you
when you came in? I mean, you know, I can
speak to this. There were two hires. You probably don't
know this, but season five they hired two editors, me
and another one. And without me really getting it because
it was so new to me, I just saw, oh, well,
if we're all good, we'll all just stay and we'll
(21:18):
go in the next season. I'm so dumb, like not
realizing like they're just gonna go with one. This is
a test, it's a survivor. It was awful, Like I'm
so glad I was ignorant of it. And my very
first season season five um. The episode I did with
Paul Feig was nominated for an Emmy for Best Editing,
(21:38):
So like, boom, I've never done a narrative before and
I get my first narrative. I mean, like, it's so
unfair because I feel like I came into the most
popular comedy and then I got nominated for Best Editing,
but like I did not even I was like when
I realized that it was kind of it was going
to be one or the other. I was so grateful
that I got nominated for an Emmy because I felt
like if I hadn't the other one had, then how
(22:01):
do you not, Like I still think they would have
hired me, but like that would have been harder to explain,
Like wait, how do you not go with the person
that cut you a Emy nomination? It was just like
very all good luck happened that year. It was kind
of bounders, so you learned to edit scripted shows on
(22:36):
the office, but really coming from you know, documentary, specifically
comedy documentaries, this felt comfortable. Yeah, and also, by the way,
like that same camaraderie that led to such a strong ensemble,
it extended through I remember talking to John about this
one time and we were just sitting I think he
directed an episode. You know, I was ahead, so I
(22:57):
would come to stick John, I think you need to
get this shot, you know, like you need to get
this because otherwise how do we It was the bulldozer
Rain was taking a bulldozer in the warehouse and smashing
it to the wall, and you needed the reverse and
and I was like, I think you need that reverse,
and we were in there and he's like, oh yeah,
no ego, Like it was fine for me to tell
John and he needed this shot. Like I would come
(23:17):
to set a lot, Dave would come to set a
lot and there was like that's not normal, like that
you always are inviting that. By the way, I always
asked the editor to come to set. Why wouldn't I
want an extra pair of eyes that might be catching something?
Because I'm in the thick of it with five other questions,
like why wouldn't I want someone having my back. It's
just a lovely thing to have. It's not about ego
or power. Being a no tour, there's no such thing.
(23:40):
First of all. But with John, we were cutting his
episode and I remember just being like, this is such
a cool place to work, like being just truly grateful,
and I was like, I am happy to come in
here every day. And I was like He's like yeah,
He's like, there's not one person like that you want
to like put your head down when you see them
walking down the hall. He's like, there's not one person
(24:01):
that I'm like avoid, like where you're like in high
school or your first job or something, or like that
person sucks. He's like, there's not one. There were over
a hundred people there and he couldn't come. And we,
by the way, we were totally gossiping, like he could
have told me that there was no reason. There's no
I mean, I wouldn't tell this story if he actually
named somebody, like but like we were like, come on,
(24:22):
there's gotta be somebody. Like everyone had their charm, you know,
like everyone had the quirks, their piccadillos. Greg could drive
me crazy and I would talk to him about it.
But like that's crazy right there, Like the show runner
could drive me crazy, and then I could say, Greg,
you're driving me crazy. Like I remember on the finale,
there was this whole tangent and I'm sure you'll remember
(24:45):
this about planting a tree. Andy sees the tree in
the office and says that tree Planty. Yes, exactly, Planty
has been in here all its life. We've got to
set Planty free. And you guys go out to the
parking lot, you plant Planty, and then you go all
the way back up to the office and then the
ending and you hug, and then you go to the
(25:05):
parking lot and you go to your respective cars, And
that's truly the end of leaving dunder Mifflin and UM.
I was writing notes down and we were over time
for the finale, and we were all Greg was incredibly emotional,
but doing that guy thing where you don't let on
that you're emotional, so you're just kind of weird, you know,
like where you're just like heretic and sometimes irrational, but
(25:26):
like what you really want to say is I'm really sad,
but you're not going to say those words because you're
a guy. So I was just taking out notes. We
were too long, and I had already pitched to cut Planty,
and I truly believed he said, okay, while we tried
cutting Planty, and I wrote it down and I did
it and it was better because not because that whole
(25:47):
styling wasn't interesting, but it was just almost just the
physicality of being in the office, having Creed play the
song and then taking Planting down to the parking lot,
and it was like a hiccup to something wonderful. You
didn't need that hiccup. It's it was just an unnecessary
extra beat. As sweet and poignant as it was, there
were already like ten sweet and poignant moments that were
happening with Creed song, and too much poignancy diluted what
(26:11):
was there. So I cut planting and Howard happened to
be walking by and I showed it to Howard, and
Greg's assistant Alyssa was also walking by, and I showed
it to her, and they both separately went to Greg
and said, oh my god, it's so much better without planting.
And he came storming into my bay and he said,
(26:32):
you you put that back in? How dare you? I
never did. You're sabotaging me. You're trying to get and
I was like what he was at a hundred? I
was like, bring it down. I said, first of all,
I would never intentionally do something to sabotage you that.
I was like, if you don't know that about me
by now, I am just I am not that person.
I'm just I don't even think I could sabotage someone
(26:52):
if I tried, Like if that was my goal, I said,
you created this show. I am here, whose service what
you created? And help you realize what you want. And
he calmed down, like he was like, so first let's
get this paranoia out. Is that they happened to be
walking by, which was true on both counts. They have
(27:13):
maybe and that would happen all the time. By the way,
we would just be wide by whether doors open, because
it would get in sufferably hot and interesting things that
I would walk by a people's bays and poke my
head And it was just a very inclusive environment. When
people are waiting for their next scene and they were
born to being in their trailer, they'd come and show
me something and it wasn't show me myself. It was like, hey,
what you got this funny show me a funny scene,
(27:33):
Like I just want to see what's going on in
the show, Like actors would come in all the time.
So he said, okay, we'll show me, and then I
showed it to him and he's like, okay, leave it out.
But like it was like I had to talk him
off alledge. I think that's what makes him so interesting
is he does clearly have and I think it was
for the better ultimately for the show. This I don't
(27:54):
want to say inferiority complex, but this like someone's always
going to try to get one over on me kind
of and going on like and you're just you almost
have to, Like like with every coworker and or boss,
I think you kind of have to just to really
get to know their psychology. And you're working with this,
you know, pound gorilla, Greg Daniels, who's so so so
smart and so funny that like to stand up to
(28:17):
him require some hotspun your own, and it's kind of empowering.
And I always did it. I didn't always, you know,
I had confidence in what he had created, so I
wanted to make sure it was the best version of
what was written and acted, and I'd make good arguments
and then he'd make great counter argument. We have a
really good discourse to get to lock and I think
(28:38):
that was also very unique and special. You know, I
always have Greg in my head when I'm directing, because
I heard his opinion on everybody else's, you know, as
an editor, I heard what he thought of every director,
and he thought the world of many and then like
sometimes he'd be like, how could they not have gotten that?
Like and I always in my mind like let's just
do one more, like thinking like what didn't I get?
(28:59):
What would? I'd be like, how can they gotten that?
You know? I always want to have that showrunner in
the back of my head saying and that show runner's voice,
because Greg was my first is always Greg. Right, did
you feel anything? Um, I mean, you were the only
woman editor. Was that a thing for you? Did you
feel no? If anything? Like I remember like so much
(29:23):
personal stuff going now for me, Jenna coming into my office,
shutting the door and be like this is what you
need to do, like just giving it to me, no nonsense.
I mean, if anything, I feel like, um, gender was
just not even an issue. And you know when people
saw that there was a problem, it was such a
close knit group that people actually did something about it.
(29:46):
Like they didn't just like sit and let you like
kind of fester in a corner, and they were like, hey,
let me poke you, let me help you. I think
in any I wish more women directors had been there.
I wish it wasn't just me Mindy and Jen. There
were three women directors and we were all in house, right,
Denny came, there was one woman director. But before before
(30:08):
your time, I will say, and I mean, this is
not to besmirch anybody, and I'm not trying to be controversial.
And you've heard like how wonderful. Of course, I will say,
I just don't think in two thousand and four people
were thinking like this, like I just don't think it was.
It was like here's your here's your stable, here's the
people they do comedy. Go. But that said, I will
(30:32):
speak to the writer's room. The writer's room was conspicuously
lack of diversity, homogeneous white guys from Harvard, Like, that's
just a And when I got there, Ellie said, Hey,
my sister is a writer. I feel weird. Would you
give her worked? Paul, who's the show owner then? And
I said, Paul, your male to female ratio in the
(30:54):
writer's room is abysmal. And this is really I read this.
It's a one. It's about a Doug committing suicide in
it was really funny and I was like, this is
Carrie Kemper, it's all sister, but it's good, Like don't
let that you know, don't let that nepotism scare you off.
And here we had no nepotism issues on our show. Really,
(31:15):
that said he interviewed her, It was good because that
would have been a hard thing if she hadn't been
able to write. But it got better, and I do
think that it was just like, I don't think there
was malice. I think that's the way it happens in
every writer's room and every and it's like, hey, I
got a show. The people I trust came out of
school with me. Oh, I just happened to go to
Harvard and write for lampoo. I don't think it's malicious,
(31:36):
like Conan O'Brien's like, hey, Greg, come out. I'm working
on this great show called The Simpsons. You should really
check it out. Thanking of the Hill. Then, you know,
I don't think it's an agenda. I'm just glad that. Um,
it got better over the course of the years. Yeah,
what we talked about this a little bit, but I
don't want to miss it. If there's something what specifically
(31:58):
made editing the Office harder than a traditional show, um,
I think it was the volume. Let's start with the volume.
The scripts were long, so I think you were, I
think you'd have like seven days to complete your cut,
so you figure, if it's a forty page script, which
more and more often they were, you were cutting a
(32:20):
forty minute assembly or editor's cut, and then from that
there were just so many steps to get it to time,
and cutting twenty minutes out of a forty minute show
is it's kind of bonkers. I mean, that's why I
think the NBC dot Com came up, The Accountants and
all of those great spinoffs, which at the time webisodes
(32:41):
were great. I mean we do webisodes and deleted scenes.
I mean it was you could use the word overshooting.
I mean I liked it because I remember Ed was
once saying like, this is crazy that we're shooting. This
is crazy. That's what we're doing. This is not fair.
We were working as to the book, like it's not
it's not normal. But it made the show better because
(33:02):
we had so many different Like I remember, there was
a storyline it was Jim and Pam had a silent fight,
and it was established you track it throughout the day.
It was really well done, well directed, well acted, and
at the end of the day, Jim or Pam I
can't even remember at this point says I'm really sorry,
and they hold hands in the parking lot as they
(33:23):
walked to their car, and it's resolved. Or I don't
even know that anyone apologizes. I think it just looks
and no one will ever know that storyline, you know,
like all these and that when that one didn't even
make it to deleted scenes, and now it was really good,
Like there were so many good C D e F
storylines never got to see, right, Yeah, they're somewhere buried
(33:46):
in avid Um archives. So you did an interview with
on the Ringer and you said, when you do documentaries,
you have to be comprehensive and watch everything that the
subject has ever done. And you said, subliminably, subliminably, Oh
my god, it's Michael Scott, subliminably through osmosis. I was
(34:07):
getting my comedy doctorate watching the best of the best,
comprehensively seeing everything they've ever done. So as a result,
I kept working towards comedy. Um. Was there anything in
terms of comedy that you learned from the office. I
remember I had a quote board, and I don't see
if I can find it on my quote board. I don't.
(34:29):
It was like a white board, and um, I had
one quest and I never put who said what? But um,
I'll tell you who was. There was one I heard
is I do have it. I'll say it directly. I
compulled some of that air out and then it says
there's a lot of comedy in that air. And it
(34:49):
was me trying to get a show to time, and
I said, I could, you know, rather than cut stuff,
I can pull some are out. And it was Paul
Eberstine who's like, there's a lot of comedy in that air,
and I think it's letting things breathe. It's just such
a pacing issue. It's a dance. It's a rhythm. They say,
if you know, if if you're a good dancer, you'll
be a good editor, or you can't be a good
(35:09):
editor unless you can dance, because it's all pacing in rhythm.
And that's so true, and that's why those reaction passes
was like kind of gold for us, you know, just
when a scene wasn't working, just anyone. I mean, there's
the famous gym. Every two seconds is like commenting for
you and you're saying, but I also liked it when
it was coming from someone else's point Jim was the
(35:31):
great entree in the first few seasons, but I feel
like everyone had their own particular take on the comedy,
which would make that reaction that much more powerful. Like
going to create oblivious, you know, that's just as funny,
like not like everyone's like, what's going on in there?
And he's just like, you're not even paying a dungeon,
Like that's funny too. I just found another picture of
you and me. This is I like this picture so
(35:53):
much because this picture is us eating lunch together. Like
that's like it was like high school, right, Like we're
just sitting and we all, like you just sat down
and ate with people. You know, that's not the norm
on other shows. It just doesn't. And you know, we
were there long enough that people went through big life stuff.
Like not to get into too much detail, but I
(36:14):
got divorced on the office, and I can tell you
there's no other job I would have wanted to have
been on during that hard time. You know. I remember
going to a table read once and being like, Paul,
I have to go to my therapists and he was like, oh,
co go, you know, you know, like just a given,
like just such a warm, welcoming just a really really
I think from the top down, you know, you had
(36:35):
Ken koppas Greg Daniels, Steve Carrell, So which one of
those guys is a jackass? It's going to make your
life a living out? And I'm just think those are
I mean I barely worked with Ken and after the
office he kind of took me under his wing when
I was starting to direct more and was just like, Okay,
(36:55):
you can do this, you know, and he would just
like I remember the first show, one of the first
shows I got was a show called um oh my gosh,
I can't remember what it was called something men in
the title. Anyway, it was canceled, but he was helping
me prep. He was just like, Okay, what's your biggest scene.
Let's talk it through, Like just really just kind kind
kind and like saying with Greg Daniels. I did a
(37:15):
movie called Set it Up. He came in the first
person I wanted to show it too was Greg Daniels, Like,
come into post, what's good, what's bad. There's this moment
where these two are having this conversation and it's like
she the girl, is holding the guy to task for
his bad acts, and Greg's like, you need to be
in a close up here. You need to see the
(37:36):
moment where she changes her mind and she's letting him
back him he's so good, Like he's just so good.
He's like, you need to see her opening the door
and he was dead right. No one touched that scene
after Greg, which is really neat. You know. So you start,
(38:10):
much like Matt Soon Randall them as camera people. In reality,
you're editing documentaries. You come on the office and then
you start directing. You've talked about it a little bit
up to now. It was something that occurred to me.
You know, you become a director from a very particular background,
(38:34):
right like editing, assembling and post and Matt Soon and
Randall like from a really from a camera perspective. But
the thing that I remember is people on your side
wanting to have conversations with actors about like how because
that was something that was new. Did you feel that
as well? I remember Ken quab Is giving me some
(38:59):
great advice. He said, everyone there has a job to do.
Sound Guys got to do so and make sure it
sounds good. Actors have to be true to their characters.
Writers have to make sure the jokes are told correctly
and the story is told dps to make sure everyone
is on camera that should be and it's blocked correctly
along with the director. But he said, but the director's
most important job is to represent the audience. And if
the director doesn't get it, the director has to raise
(39:20):
their hand and be the pain in the ass and
say this isn't working, and that nobody wants to do that.
Nobody wants. Everyone's gonna look at you and be like,
oh the funk. I want to go home to my family.
I don't want to do this. We're just and I've
had to like be you have to be unpopular sometimes
to do that, and I it was such helpful advice,
(39:41):
you know. And I remember I was I was setting
up a scene and here comes trouble in the conference room.
It was a party, and um Greene came in and
he was like, oh no, no, no, I don't think
I would be here, and we'd already we'd rehearsed it,
and he's like, this is working. So he's like, I
think I should do this. This isn't He gave his
opinion and I was like, okay, let's do that, and
(40:02):
we started and it didn't work at all, and we
had to come back to the way I had it done,
and it was like, oh, I had done my homework.
I had a reason for I'd really worked, like I
take prep very seriously. And I understand why Rain came
at me because he didn't I didn't. He didn't have
confidence in me, Like why should he. It was my
(40:24):
second episode of Dragon TV ever, and so just learning
that dance of like when to speak up, when to
stand back, and then slowly gain trust. I mean that's
everything is gaining trust and then proving myself. Like so,
I remember there was a scene with John and he
was walking out with Jenna and and he's like, I
think we should have You know, John, a lot of
(40:46):
the times had really good ideas. I wish he came
up with them before we lit. He'd always come up
with such he was like he would dial in when
it was actually the cameras up and at Jim would
never do this, and we would always say, you're absolutely
right Brown University. Why didn't you come back and bring
that Brown University education to the rehearsal? Where was your
(41:08):
head in? So um, He's like, I think it worked
better this way, and he said, let's let's try that
and and let's do John's way, and then he did
it a couple of times he like your way was better.
So like it was just like finding that like dance
of like working with people gaining trust. And then after
that I felt like, Okay, I could do this. But
I remember the first day was like starting with talking heads.
It was a very gentle entree into directing, and Paul
(41:32):
would come for every rehearsal and there were lots of
safety nuts for me that first week. But I remember
halfway through the day of my first day ever directing,
already two questions or lobbed your way that morning and
I was like I can do this, I can do this.
It was lunch. I was like collecting myself and I
was like, why would anyone want to do this? Like
I was literally and then by the end of the
(41:53):
day I turned the corner and I was like I
want to do this, like but it was that halfway
mark was like brutal kind of Okay, I can I
can do this. I can do this, and then coming
around and be like, oh, not only can, I want
to and that's what you do now, And that's what
I mean. I never stopped loving editing. I love directing,
but I really there's something there's your building a world
(42:16):
in an edit bay, and um writers create out of
the blue sky. But I feel like editors are like
sculptors that work with negative space and they shave it
away and it's a different kind of writing. And I
think there's something wonderful about seeing what something can be
and realizing it. Like I felt that way so strongly.
(42:37):
I was so proud of the finale of the series.
There's this one pam talking head that like, I can't
wait to show my daughter when she's older, where she says,
you know, this has been such an amazing experience and
the documentary has been so invaluable. If I could talk
to my younger self, I wish I could have told
her to seize the moment sooner and just stand up
(42:57):
for yourself and go for it. Like it was so powerful.
I just even thinking about it makes me like misty
because it's just like, as a woman, you were just
not seeing that on TV, you know, and it was
such a powerful message. So it was a really that
was a really special just the whole ending was sad
and special, and it's all a blur because we were
also pulling all nighters when we were doing it, but
(43:18):
it was so worth it, and I think we all
knew when it came to an end that one it
was the right time, and to that we've all been
part of something extraordinary. You're proud of how we ended?
Oh my god, yeah, are you? I mean the last
two I mean ARM could have been a a RM
could have been the finale as well. I feel like
(43:39):
both episodes are so strong, but like having Steve come
back was great. That was such a special day too,
you know when he came for the wedding and you
guys didn't know. You guys know some some some people
knew obviously, the studio didn't know. The network and studio,
we're piss We hit the dailies, we went to another
we outsourced thumb. They never knew and it aired. They
(44:01):
saw the morning it aired. They were so pissed, really,
they were piste. Well what we didn't want them to
promo it and it would have you know, he would
have been in the promo. And Greg had such a
guilty conscience and he's like, all these people are asking
if he's coming back, and we have to lie and
say no. And he's like Ken don't you feel like
an awful person for lying to everybody and kids like
(44:21):
not at all. I feel I feel nothing. I don't care.
He didn't want them to ruin it. So what we
did was, yeah, it was great, and you won for
that episode, yeah, Dave and I. So I was cutting
the first half and Dave was cutting the second half,
and then Greg swapped us halfway through and he said, Claire,
(44:42):
you finish, and Dave you start with the beginning. And
it was like a mind fun because that's the air.
You don't I've seen all the dailies. I've seen every
inch of it, and then you're just swapping it out
and it was crushing. But then it was great, you know,
like fresh eyes and everything. So I think that is
really great. And Dave and I hit at that point,
we're just like Ying and Yang. We were very very new,
(45:05):
very much what each other's strengths were. And he just
he'd been there since season one, so I mean, he
just was such a He's an encyclopedia. He's so much
better at me. Like people will throw out a certain
episode like okay, what season, Like he just knows that said.
I also haven't gone back and watched them in a
long time like form for me, someone bring up some
(45:26):
serious emotions like Niagara or something like. That was such
a great episode to edit. It was wonderful because there
was music like I also cut the scene in arm
even though Dave and I would share like so if
I was ahead, I would just take some scenes from him,
and I was. I was good at doing I've done
all these like documentaries where you had to do these
opening montages. So for the Jim and Pam, the video
(45:48):
that Jim gives Pam, I cut that to snow Patrol
in Dave's episode because I like doing those things and
he hates doing those things. And um and I got
to do the Niagara a dancing thing to the Chris
Brown song and that was really fun. And I remember
getting to use Randall's footage that he shot I feel
like Super eight and Niarea. They went to Niagara Falls,
(46:12):
and I think he I know he shot film. I
don't think it was Super sixteen, but it could have
been Super sixteen. Yeah, you know, it was probably Super sixteen.
It was not shitty enough to be Super and I
remember seeing and so this was very much like cutting
a documentary because they didn't speak so Um, there's the
last scene of Niagara where Jim and Pam are on
the bow of the boat and he puts his arm
around her and he looks right into the camera and
(46:34):
he just like it's not even like cocky, it's just
like sweet, like I got her, you know. And Jim,
John and Jenna came into my bay to see it.
They were like, we need to see this show. We
need to sign off on this big, big one. And
after that, I'd like turned around and they're bawling, and
I was like, yes, because that's all you want to
(46:55):
do is make people cry, like you were in comment
but like for the poignant moments, all you want is
to make people gray. It was awesome. It was awesome
then coming in there and seeing we kind of shared
this and no one else will know that, you know,
but it was really a sweet moment to be a
part of in their journey, you know, and just almost
be just a witness to it. Um, put on the headphones.
(47:34):
I just want to play one thing for you here.
This is from the finale that you cut. I thought
it was weird when you picked us to make a documentary,
but all in all, I think an ordinary paper company
like dunder Mifflin was a great subject for a documentary.
(47:55):
There's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. Isn't that
kind of the point? So Greg having written that, clearly
he thinks that's what the point was. What did you
think I was of the office? I don't know if
(48:17):
he talked about this, but he told me that whenever
he was stimied or stuck, the moral compass of the
show was was Pam. And whenever he was stuck and
what would what would Pam do? Here? He would actually
say what would Suzanne do here? Did he tell you this? Oh?
It's it's like the best love letter. I don't think
I'm speaking out of school here. I thought that was
(48:38):
like the most romantic thing to say. You know, he
loves his wife so much he put her in Pam.
He basically created this whole series. You think it's Michael Scott,
but it's also Pam. She is the moral compass of
the show, and she is the person that you you
want to aspire to be as good as and be
(48:59):
it good enough to be with if you're a Jim.
For me, the whole series is all about growing up,
and when a character grows up, they don't need to
be in the office. I also think that Michael Scott
from me, I was nostalgic for because his story, his
arc is a beautiful one. You know. He is a
(49:21):
person whose mom is screening out his phone calls at
night when he's all alone in his office with no
friends or anyone to hang out in, no family to
go home to, and you see his pain. And then
the next morning he comes in and he asks like
a blow hard buffoon, and he tries to force his
entire workforce into being his family and friends. And I
forgive him every moment of it because I was led
(49:42):
into his vulnerability and I saw his cracks, and I
understand why he's doing what he's doing, and I'm rooting
for him, and so over the course of it, you
see each season he grows a little more, and by
season seven he is finally worthy of Holly, worthy of
a family. He's grown, He's become the best version of himself,
(50:05):
and I'm rooting for him and Holly. So for me,
it was such a clean exit, you know, it was
so well deserved, so well told, so that I wanted
to see that journey in others, you know, And and
it was nice that there was more space for other
people to have those same goals, and it was nice
to see Jim and Pam go beyond the fairy tale
and see like, whoa, there's bumps in marriage? Like that
(50:25):
was really that was great. I liked being able to
service more of the characters as a result. But I
do think that that's kind of what I was alluding
to earlier. It is giving equal time to lots of
people who don't normally get I mean, like just the
very fact that I said the moral compass as a woman,
I didn't want to beat a dead horse. But there's
not parody yet, you know, So it's nice that she
(50:49):
got that part in the show. And then it was
nice that everyone got their stories told, like what what
what primetime show had some of the heartfelt moments that
Phillis Scott. You know how many assistant casting directors get
to go on become on a network comedy start Like
I mean, it's just crazy, like the trajectory and the
(51:09):
impact and the humanity. I keep coming back to that
word humanity, but it really is a utopic society, and
I think that it's not shocking that kids are gravitating
towards that today because I think we see just the
opposite every day in the news, and it's it's so disheartening,
you know, and I want to go live in scranted
(51:30):
in the world of the office, that's the appeal now,
I think. So. I mean, it's not about getting rich,
it's not about being popular. It's about being happy and
being kind to others. I mean, on very few other
shows do you see people being so kind to each other.
I mean, I'm not a religious person, but I can
(51:52):
see why people kind of go to the church of
the office. Um, when Pam is having a vulnerable moment
with Dwight and then he says, you're on your period,
you know, it's undercuts. It's like you're getting to all
those like feelings. And then of course it's a comedy,
so it's but like he's really trying. He's a jackass,
really trying right, right, the intention is there, Yeah, and
(52:16):
you're kind of route like, oh, he can almost do
this right, almost almost not quite. Yeah, it wouldn't be
a comedy if you could. Right. I'll just tell you
this weird thing that I've settled on here in terms
of that that your brain would tell you that the
(52:37):
more general would be the more universal. But with the Office,
the characters were drawn so specifically, and that ultimately that
is the thing that I think has made it more universal,
that it's actually so specific. Yeah, instead of pleasing all
the people, you're just being true to a character building
and telling a story, which ultimately does make it appeal
(52:59):
to more people. It's counterintuitive, yeah, but I mean I
always get so frustrated and just been working on anything
new where you are underestimating the sophistication of the audience.
They are smart and they can sniff out phoniness so quickly,
especially now and like peak TV. You know, people are
(53:20):
just so smart. And I think The Office was ahead.
It was ten years ahead of its time. You just
was the American officer, I mean in the British Office. Well,
and now we're maybe that's it. Maybe it was ten
years ahead of its time. And now because as you
said before, the show is bigger now. It is like
people will be like, I watched ever episode I see
(53:42):
your name. I felt like their kids, they're watching it
with their kids. My peers are watching They never watched
my peers didn't watch it when I worked on it,
but they're watching it now with their children. Right, Well,
thank you so much for coming to talk to me. Sure,
this has been great. I am so happy for you
and your success. Thank you. And you're so smart and
(54:04):
thoughtful and I just so appreciate and care for you.
And oh, thank you. Right, that's awfully right back at you.
Thank you for thinking of me. One thing I didn't
mention is that, you know, we still work. We still
work in this town and I see people once in
a blue moon, I'll bump into um, Greg the p
(54:24):
A or um you know. I worked with Danny Chun
from time to time, or a writer that we've worked with.
But a lot of times on sets, you know, you'll
see someone I've worked with, Kelly, and you go up
and you're like, Okay, who's the so and so, Like
who's like MAT's own over here? And like who you know,
who's the no nonsense and who can I talk to
about this? And it's just like a shorthand. I call
(54:45):
it going to the University of Greg Daniels because we
all went to school with under him. He was our master, professor, principal,
and then we all shot out and went elsewhere but
remembered each other, and oh that's my school. Made over there,
so I that's the person I have a shorthand with
and when I see that familiar face, it's like coming home.
And I just never i'd never, never, never take the
(55:06):
office for granted. I don't take any of those years
for granted. Every day I walked into that office, I
was aware of how good I had it, how good
the people, how protected we were, how wonderful it was
to be on that stage away from everything, and how
kind everybody was to everybody, even when they were in
a mood. People were not jackasses. They just weren't. It
(55:28):
just wasn't tolerated, which is wonderful. Yeah, oh my god,
thank you so much. Like you're I mean, I forget
that you're a real smart I know I'm not. Yeah, Oh,
(55:57):
how amazing is she? Thank you, Claire for your wisdom
and for everything you brought to the show. I am
so happy to be an alumni of the University of
Greg Daniels, and I love that we got to have
this this little class reunion together from all of us
(56:17):
here at the office Deep Dive, especially me since I'm talking.
Have a great week and we will be back next
Tuesday with another brilliant woman from the office, but this time, oh,
she is someone who was in front of the camera.
See you next week the Office. Deep Dive is hosted
(56:46):
an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner alongside our executive
producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producers
are Emily Carr and Diego Tapia, and our intern is
Hannah Harris. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore.
Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great
(57:07):
friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky.
We can say whatever you want. Your name and what
you are on the Office. My name is Claire Scanlon
and I was an editor on the Office from season
five for five years through the finale. That was so
long I can see. Okay, my name is Claire Scanlon
and I was an editor on the Office. Hello everyone,
(00:36):
that just made me laugh. Welcome back to the Office
deep Dive where we dive deep into the Office. As
the title indicates, I am your host, Brian Bonm Gartner.
Today I have the absolute pleasure and privilege of bringing
you my conversation with the one and only Claire ski
(01:00):
end Lyn. Oh she's just great. Just wait, um. Claire
was an editor on our show, a great one. In fact,
she won an Emmy for editing the final episode. But
one thing that was so special about the Office, and
I know I've talked about this, but but you really
you need to understand just how rare it is. There
(01:22):
was a synergy, a real synergy between all of the
members of the cast and of the crew. Everyone talked
to everyone, everyone had input and value. Everyone could try
on a new hat if they wanted. Even I a
lowly actor, I could walk right up to the writer's
(01:44):
room and tell them what I thought about something, or
the editors area, the editing bay as we call it,
and I have real conversations with Claire or with our
other amazing editor, Dave Rodgers about the show. So ideas
came from all different people, all of the time, right
up until the very end. So the fact that Claire
(02:04):
and I even have a relationship, her as an editor
and me as an actor, that speaks to the extra
special specialness of our set. And speaking of people taking
on different roles, well, Claire also directed a couple of
episodes of The Office, Yes, her first ever directing job,
(02:25):
which of course has launched her into a full blown
directing career. Yeah, Claire is kind of a big deal.
If you watch television, there is no doubt you have
seen something she has done, maybe The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt
or Brooklyn nine nine, or The Mindy Project or her
recent film Set It Up. Oh, and did I mention
(02:48):
that she won an Emmy for editing the finale of
the Office. She's just too good. She's too good at
at everything. Anyway, you will understand how stoked I was
to get to see her and to talk to her.
It was truly my pleasure. Here is my friend, the
incredibly multi talented and impossibly brilliant Claire Scandling. Bubble and Squeak.
(03:19):
I love it, Bubble and squeak on Bubble and Squeaker
cookie every moment left over from the nubb before. How
(03:44):
are you good? God? Golfing? What's going on? Why is
it always about golfing? Working card outside? We can That's
what I was, right, well, um, oh my gosh, how
(04:06):
are you good? Good? Really good? I was like teasing.
I was like this because in the emails, like conveniently located,
I'm like Greg, and I brought a ton of pictures too,
and yeah, yeah, it was really actually fun going to
I haven't weirdly, I have a lot of pictures of you. Really.
(04:26):
I was just like, I was, it's time to tell
you the truth that I was totally obsessed with you
and stopped you. You just didn't know what I did
it very surreptitiously. Really. Yeah, see your pictures. I know
I'm pulling pulling them up right now. The office. Um,
there's one just that's like a rap some and you
(04:49):
in the middle. This is like one of our story boards,
you know, just like classic office storyboard. That's the very
last next session, that's for the finality. Yeah, that's Matt,
So in case you couldn't recognize him, he was Colonel Sanders,
which having had just worked on I'm trying to be
(05:13):
trying to be very diplomatic about this, but having just
worked on another handheld show, it makes you really appreciate
Matt and Sarah's work because it's such a skill, it's
such an art, and so few people can do it well.
So few. Well, it's crazy because they came from reality. Yes,
(05:34):
but they knew how to construct the story. They knew
not to go to you guys until you started speaking,
which is such a palletic, artful thing that they never
got credit for her because no one appreciates the storytelling
they were doing and understanding the level of difficulty except
other camera operators that would come and work on the
show and fail. The editors really knew it, and the
(05:56):
other people who tried and couldn't do it would like
cut to you and be like, no, he Kevin hasn't
spoken yet. You can't cut to Kevin because how do
these the documentary filmmaker know that Kevin's going to speak? Right?
I talked with Matt about this also, and I'd kind
of forgotten about this. Really. The only way they cheated
was they would have us do handles occasionally, right, So
(06:16):
like Michael, yes, just to give them a reason to
get over there, always looking for the reason right right
that he knew to do. That was awesome. Do you
feel like was editing on the Office more or less
difficult because of the way that it was. Because it
(06:38):
was incredibly difficult. It was not easier than a more
studio style Hollywood typical Hollywood sitcom or single camp show,
much much more difficult. But that said, you had so
much creativity and so much leeway. I think because Greg
and Paul Engen really respected the editor, the act of editing,
(07:04):
the storytelling of editing, they gave so much leeway. So
and they and especially Greg was not reverential with his
scripts and himself as well, like when he would come
into post, like take that talking head from act one
and put it in three. And I remember doing casual
Fridays and it was kind of too many storylines, way
too long, and I was like, you know, this one
(07:28):
needs how I was like, I don't know, you know,
I had cut this behemoth, you know, towards the end,
they were all getting to be like forty minute long
episodes and you're cutting a show out of the show.
But this one in particular, I felt like, I don't
know what we're going to do. And he was just genius,
Like there was one Kelly Poor story that just became
like almost like two shots and it was just like
(07:48):
a little pop and it was so good as a
result of it, and he just moved stuff every which way.
Once he sees that your boss is doing that, it
kind of gives you a freer hand to do it yourself,
right Because I came on season five, so that's a
great point. So before you started you were editing documentaries.
(08:10):
This was the very first scripted television show I ever edited, period,
So I like literally went from no scripted to the
number one company. It was just like, wow, try by
fire first, one go for it. I knew that if
I didn't do a good job, I wouldn't get as back.
Like it was that simple. And Dave Rogers was amazing
(08:32):
and he always would watch my cuts, but initially especially
with me, like this is what we do. Stays, don't
cut away, don't pre lab stay on the joke, till
the end, you know, like that was just something it
would take kind of just like a more seasoned person
to know. But then in other ways, I think because
of my background, I was very comfortable with all of
the shooting style, whereas I think other editors that would
(08:53):
come on would be like, WHOA, what the heck? Um?
I remember my job interview with Gen Sila out of
Mike Sure, Paul Eversen, and Greg Daniel, so not an
intimidating group at all to be interviewing me. I literally
like almost knew too little to be intimidated, Like I
should have been shaking that group, like, but I almost was.
(09:15):
Just like I knew Paul socially from in our twenties.
I knew him when he was writing. Clarissa explains it
all personally. So what happened was a good friend of mine,
Grady Cooper, who ended up editing quipond Um. He said, Hey, Claire,
I heard there's a spinoff of the Office. Would you
mind putting my name in the hat and giving it
to Paul? And I called Paul and said, hey, my
(09:37):
friend wants to put his name in the hat for
the new show. And he's like, well, what about you.
I was like what and he's like, what about you
don't want to put your name in the hat? You're
an editor too, And I said, okay, I never It
just didn't even cross my mind that I would even
have a chance. So Paul was conspicuously quiet in that
meaning because I knew him, you know, socially. And I
met Greg and Suzanne at Paul's birthday party one year.
(10:00):
I think, um, and to me, they were like the
grown ups, which is so funny. They were like the
perhaps they had a kid already like I was in
my twenties, and they were just so mature. They were
so mature, and I remember thinking like, oh, that's the
dad when I went into the interview, like that, he's
a dad. And so I met with them. I said,
(10:21):
I don't have any narrative editing background. I don't have
I'm not this isn't my forte and I come from documentary.
In fact, I've worked with a lot of your camera
operators because we were all under the same roof at
Mark Burnett Productions, and um, guys like that's a plus
that you've never done narrative. And I do come from documentary.
I don't really come as much from reality. I've done
(10:42):
tons of docs before and weirdly docks on comedians. Um,
I gravitated towards like Carol Burnett, a woman of character,
carry grant a class apart Bob new Harden button and
it didn't. I didn't set out with comedy in mind
when I was I just kind of veered that way,
like just like I don't know, it's kind of follow
my lap that way. So Greg was very keen on
the fact that I hadn't come up through the system,
(11:05):
and I can see now in retrospect why that wasn't
attractive quality, just and that you do thwart the script structure,
which is like the script is Bible, and no other
show runner lets you do that, Like can you imagine
being on another show saying, oh, I put that three
even though you wrote it in act one. But Greg
two was also very reverential to the script on set.
(11:28):
You know, if a director didn't shoot the words, he
was pissed. But all fund runs. Improv is great, but
you better have gotten at least one or two takes
with the scripted. And then in post he didn't care
like and post he's like, let me see it the
way it was written, Okay, now let's throw everything up
in the air and start over again, which was so liberating,
(11:49):
and I think that's also what led to just a
whole level of another layer of comedy that other shows
didn't have that opportunity for. Like, you couldn't have done
what we did with the b roll and the talking
I mean, you could take a show that was way
too long, if it was too much exposition, you just
had someone do a talking head, and then you could
(12:10):
delve right into the scene mid scene. You could just
get rid of so much of the shoe leather. So
it was just such an unusual show that way. I
think obviously that mockumentary style worked because it worked for
Parks and rec and Modern Family quite well. You know,
other shows really were able to take that on and
move forward with it. Yes, I mean, I don't know
(12:34):
that I would say better than The Office, but I
would just say it was clearly a format that worked
in comedy, and other comedies stemmed from that. I think
that for me, what's interesting is that we had rules
in terms of how the camera worked, things that we
were not allowed to break. Randall's talked about like, no,
(12:57):
I'm not going to do a shot if I can't
physically get it. If we have two cameras and one
cameras shooting from right behind Steve, then we can't shoot
Steve front on, or we would see the camera right
And he talked about one of Greg's sort of adages
early on was everything that makes it harder makes it better.
You know, if the angle wasn't perfect and you didn't
(13:19):
have everybody's face, that led led to the voyeurism and
the realness of it. And I think the show's after
the Office that emulated. Yeah, no Parkinson MC didn't quite
do it the same, which is fine. No, No, they
didn't do it. And I think Modern Family they did
a monitored family. I directed one, and I remember going
in and you know, it's essentially construct that very heavily
(13:44):
borrowed some you know, from the Office. I think they
would all be very comfortable saying that. And I remember
being like, well, let's get an over of cam doing this,
and then we don't do overs. It's basically a percinium.
It's a multi cam just with no audience, and that
you have two cameras only just shooting us on my circle.
It's just it was a very different way of shooting
very percent like being on stage, but they also don't
(14:06):
acknowledge that the cameras there except in the talk yeah yeah,
and the talking heads. I feel like Phil Dumpy sometimes
just stairs in the camera, but not like Guilty. I
feel like he's done that a couple of times. But
I'm no expert on modern family. I did one, but
I do think that well, I think there were so
many special things about the office that are unlike other
(14:28):
ones that have used that, you know, I think there
was a willingness to be ugly. I think that's why
the camera operators and the dps never got acknowledged, and
nobody was going out of their way to be not
under fluorescent lights. I mean, it was not a pretty set,
and if it was, it would have been weird. So
do you think they didn't get appreciated because I feel
(14:49):
like so. I worked with director of photographies all the time,
and you always want them on your side. Yet at
the same time it's a constant battle with comedy. When
I come onto a project, my goals, my objectives are
almost diametrically opposed to what the dp's job is. The
dp's job, especially if there's a woman in the scene
is to make her beautiful. Nothing else matters. Nothing. Whereas
(15:13):
when you said you had Randle in here and you
were talking about soon they understood and accepted the world
of the Office and the goal was comedy. Whereas I
find myself having to say, I need this scene cross covered.
I've got two comedy giants. Fill in the blank. On
the Office, it was everybody was a comedy giant. So
(15:34):
I have two comedy giants and I need I can't
anticipate what they're gonna do and say, like, I need
that coverage. What if one does something and there's an
electricity in the take and you cannot recreate that. I
don't care. When cutting the Mindy Project pilot, it was
Ed and Mindy in a scene and they did all
this beautiful studio style, but Ed and Mindy were griffing
and doing great fun runs and I was screwed. You know,
(15:57):
I was screwed. So I'm always pushing, especially when there's
such strong comedy people to cross cover, and a DP
will always fight. A typical DP that doesn't buy into
the comedy and the joy of what it is to
shoot comedy will always fight. But she's got to look beautiful.
She's got to be lit this way, and it's always
she for the most part. It's like I don't know
(16:19):
where it's taught in cinematography school, but all women must
be beautiful always at all times, like it's evil. Like
Carol Burnett never adhered to that, and she was the
number one person on television throughout the seventies, like think
about Unice Unite was hideous, and she was the first
to like make fun of her aesthetics. And yet she
(16:40):
could come out every evening and do her Q and
A and be gorgeous in a Bob mackiegown, you know.
So like you know, she could bring it if she
wanted to be beautiful, But where's the fun and that
I don't know. It's a struggle, it's and it's truly
a conversation I have to have every time, you know.
So I I just you caught me on a terror
(17:00):
on something that I feel very passionately about. And I
think coming up through the office where it was a given, Oh,
this doesn't look like right? Who cares? They're hilarious, Like
I don't care. You know, well, that's something that I think, well,
quite obviously, the face of television in a way began
to change with our show. Yeah, And I also think
(17:22):
the egalitarian nature of the Office was something wonderful and
desperately needed. And I think what was so wonderful is
how all the characters just very slightly and almost it
just seemed like so organically like it just seemed that
you sort of just started to fall in love with
the regular guy and the regular girl, you know, so
(17:44):
like and on the Office, the regular guy of the
regular girl could be Stanley and it could be Oscar.
And I think this was a time when you weren't
seeing that much diversity in primetime television, especially in comedy.
But see, it's interesting what you're saying right now. It
never felt intention No, that's what I'm saying. I think
it was like, well, I said slyly, but I don't
(18:05):
know that it was Greg or your intentions, the writer's
intention to be like, let's make America love the everyman.
This wasn't like Willie Lohman time. You know, I don't
think that that was their agenda. I do know, and
I'm sure Greg's talked about the differences between season one
and season two and the mandate, because I think that
was huge, you know, humanizing Michael in a way that
(18:26):
you needed to from season one, and I think even
though the mandate was specifically directed at Michael, this humanitarianism
kind of slipped down to all of the character. Yes
when yours with Holly of course is a famous one,
but like even someone is arch as Angela once in
a while, just seeing that glimpse of vulnerability and you
(18:48):
show me vulnerability, I'm on board with that character for life.
And I think the opposite that was every single person
practically on the show. Like I remember, I remember when
Ellie came on. She came on just a little after me,
and so we were kind of like the new girls.
And I didn't know how you guys introduced new characters.
I didn't know, like the writers just let them flounder
(19:09):
and they waited for the actor to show them who
they were. And it either worked her didn't. Obviously with
Ellie Kemper it worked. But I remember cutting Secretary's Day
and she had a scene where Michael took her like
Michael was very resistant but was told you gotta take
your secretary out to launch hot Secretary's Day, it's the rule.
And then she has a meltdown and I remember thinking like, oh,
(19:30):
she's going to make it because I didn't know, Like
I didn't hadn't seen much of her work before that.
She was given like, hi, I'm Aren. You know. It
was a great scene and she was definitely driving it,
and he was the reactor to everything that she was doing,
and she gave him great stuff to work with. And
in this I was like, she's got the chops. She
can play with Michael. I mean, she can play with
(19:51):
Steve Carrell, so she's gonna make it. So I think
that it was a very intimidate. I remember when Kathy
Bates came on, she was I hope this is okay
to say, but like we were cutting her first few
takes and her voice was a little warbly. She was
so nervous and she told you guys like and everyone
was like, you're freaking Oscar Winner, How are you nervous
(20:12):
to come play with us? You know this is a low,
this is a nice She's like, you don't get it,
you don't get it. And I think I feel like
even I don't know that any of us got it.
Because it was popular and I knew it was good.
I knew it made me feel something in my heart.
But just this whole like kids watching it now, and
I mean, it can only imagine what it's like to
be in your shoes, like not being able to watch
(20:35):
down the street. I don't even more so than when
it was on the air. Weird. It is weird, yeah,
And I think by the way, of course, it's she's
cant it's it wore off. You know, she's not the
when did you see on TV? The episodes don't have that,
but I just remember being bowled over by that and
how it seems so easy from the inside and then
(20:57):
coming in from the outside, How was it for you
when you came in? I mean, you know, I can
speak to this. There were two hires. You probably don't
know this, but season five they hired two editors, me
and another one. And without me really getting it because
it was so new to me, I just saw, oh, well,
if we're all good, we'll all just stay and we'll
(21:18):
go in the next season. I'm so dumb, like not
realizing like they're just gonna go with one. This is
a test, it's a survivor. It was awful, Like I'm
so glad I was ignorant of it. And my very
first season season five um. The episode I did with
Paul Feig was nominated for an Emmy for Best Editing,
(21:38):
So like, boom, I've never done a narrative before and
I get my first narrative. I mean, like, it's so
unfair because I feel like I came into the most
popular comedy and then I got nominated for Best Editing,
but like I did not even I was like when
I realized that it was kind of it was going
to be one or the other. I was so grateful
that I got nominated for an Emmy because I felt
like if I hadn't the other one had, then how
(22:01):
do you not, Like I still think they would have
hired me, but like that would have been harder to explain,
Like wait, how do you not go with the person
that cut you a Emy nomination? It was just like
very all good luck happened that year. It was kind
of bounders, so you learned to edit scripted shows on
(22:36):
the office, but really coming from you know, documentary, specifically
comedy documentaries, this felt comfortable. Yeah, and also, by the way,
like that same camaraderie that led to such a strong ensemble,
it extended through I remember talking to John about this
one time and we were just sitting I think he
directed an episode. You know, I was ahead, so I
(22:57):
would come to stick John, I think you need to
get this shot, you know, like you need to get
this because otherwise how do we It was the bulldozer
Rain was taking a bulldozer in the warehouse and smashing
it to the wall, and you needed the reverse and
and I was like, I think you need that reverse,
and we were in there and he's like, oh yeah,
no ego, Like it was fine for me to tell
John and he needed this shot. Like I would come
(23:17):
to set a lot, Dave would come to set a
lot and there was like that's not normal, like that
you always are inviting that. By the way, I always
asked the editor to come to set. Why wouldn't I
want an extra pair of eyes that might be catching something?
Because I'm in the thick of it with five other questions,
like why wouldn't I want someone having my back. It's
just a lovely thing to have. It's not about ego
or power. Being a no tour, there's no such thing.
(23:40):
First of all. But with John, we were cutting his
episode and I remember just being like, this is such
a cool place to work, like being just truly grateful,
and I was like, I am happy to come in
here every day. And I was like He's like yeah,
He's like, there's not one person like that you want
to like put your head down when you see them
walking down the hall. He's like, there's not one person
(24:01):
that I'm like avoid, like where you're like in high
school or your first job or something, or like that
person sucks. He's like, there's not one. There were over
a hundred people there and he couldn't come. And we,
by the way, we were totally gossiping, like he could
have told me that there was no reason. There's no
I mean, I wouldn't tell this story if he actually
named somebody, like but like we were like, come on,
(24:22):
there's gotta be somebody. Like everyone had their charm, you know,
like everyone had the quirks, their piccadillos. Greg could drive
me crazy and I would talk to him about it.
But like that's crazy right there, Like the show runner
could drive me crazy, and then I could say, Greg,
you're driving me crazy. Like I remember on the finale,
there was this whole tangent and I'm sure you'll remember
(24:45):
this about planting a tree. Andy sees the tree in
the office and says that tree Planty. Yes, exactly, Planty
has been in here all its life. We've got to
set Planty free. And you guys go out to the
parking lot, you plant Planty, and then you go all
the way back up to the office and then the
ending and you hug, and then you go to the
(25:05):
parking lot and you go to your respective cars, And
that's truly the end of leaving dunder Mifflin and UM.
I was writing notes down and we were over time
for the finale, and we were all Greg was incredibly emotional,
but doing that guy thing where you don't let on
that you're emotional, so you're just kind of weird, you know,
like where you're just like heretic and sometimes irrational, but
(25:26):
like what you really want to say is I'm really sad,
but you're not going to say those words because you're
a guy. So I was just taking out notes. We
were too long, and I had already pitched to cut Planty,
and I truly believed he said, okay, while we tried
cutting Planty, and I wrote it down and I did
it and it was better because not because that whole
(25:47):
styling wasn't interesting, but it was just almost just the
physicality of being in the office, having Creed play the
song and then taking Planting down to the parking lot,
and it was like a hiccup to something wonderful. You
didn't need that hiccup. It's it was just an unnecessary
extra beat. As sweet and poignant as it was, there
were already like ten sweet and poignant moments that were
happening with Creed song, and too much poignancy diluted what
(26:11):
was there. So I cut planting and Howard happened to
be walking by and I showed it to Howard, and
Greg's assistant Alyssa was also walking by, and I showed
it to her, and they both separately went to Greg
and said, oh my god, it's so much better without planting.
And he came storming into my bay and he said,
(26:32):
you you put that back in? How dare you? I
never did. You're sabotaging me. You're trying to get and
I was like what he was at a hundred? I
was like, bring it down. I said, first of all,
I would never intentionally do something to sabotage you that.
I was like, if you don't know that about me
by now, I am just I am not that person.
I'm just I don't even think I could sabotage someone
(26:52):
if I tried, Like if that was my goal, I said,
you created this show. I am here, whose service what
you created? And help you realize what you want. And
he calmed down, like he was like, so first let's
get this paranoia out. Is that they happened to be
walking by, which was true on both counts. They have
(27:13):
maybe and that would happen all the time. By the way,
we would just be wide by whether doors open, because
it would get in sufferably hot and interesting things that
I would walk by a people's bays and poke my
head And it was just a very inclusive environment. When
people are waiting for their next scene and they were
born to being in their trailer, they'd come and show
me something and it wasn't show me myself. It was like, hey,
what you got this funny show me a funny scene,
(27:33):
Like I just want to see what's going on in
the show, Like actors would come in all the time.
So he said, okay, we'll show me, and then I
showed it to him and he's like, okay, leave it out.
But like it was like I had to talk him
off alledge. I think that's what makes him so interesting
is he does clearly have and I think it was
for the better ultimately for the show. This I don't
(27:54):
want to say inferiority complex, but this like someone's always
going to try to get one over on me kind
of and going on like and you're just you almost
have to, Like like with every coworker and or boss,
I think you kind of have to just to really
get to know their psychology. And you're working with this,
you know, pound gorilla, Greg Daniels, who's so so so
smart and so funny that like to stand up to
(28:17):
him require some hotspun your own, and it's kind of empowering.
And I always did it. I didn't always, you know,
I had confidence in what he had created, so I
wanted to make sure it was the best version of
what was written and acted, and I'd make good arguments
and then he'd make great counter argument. We have a
really good discourse to get to lock and I think
(28:38):
that was also very unique and special. You know, I
always have Greg in my head when I'm directing, because
I heard his opinion on everybody else's, you know, as
an editor, I heard what he thought of every director,
and he thought the world of many and then like
sometimes he'd be like, how could they not have gotten that?
Like and I always in my mind like let's just
do one more, like thinking like what didn't I get?
(28:59):
What would? I'd be like, how can they gotten that?
You know? I always want to have that showrunner in
the back of my head saying and that show runner's voice,
because Greg was my first is always Greg. Right, did
you feel anything? Um, I mean, you were the only
woman editor. Was that a thing for you? Did you
feel no? If anything? Like I remember like so much
(29:23):
personal stuff going now for me, Jenna coming into my office,
shutting the door and be like this is what you
need to do, like just giving it to me, no nonsense.
I mean, if anything, I feel like, um, gender was
just not even an issue. And you know when people
saw that there was a problem, it was such a
close knit group that people actually did something about it.
(29:46):
Like they didn't just like sit and let you like
kind of fester in a corner, and they were like, hey,
let me poke you, let me help you. I think
in any I wish more women directors had been there.
I wish it wasn't just me Mindy and Jen. There
were three women directors and we were all in house, right,
Denny came, there was one woman director. But before before
(30:08):
your time, I will say, and I mean, this is
not to besmirch anybody, and I'm not trying to be controversial.
And you've heard like how wonderful. Of course, I will say,
I just don't think in two thousand and four people
were thinking like this, like I just don't think it was.
It was like here's your here's your stable, here's the
people they do comedy. Go. But that said, I will
(30:32):
speak to the writer's room. The writer's room was conspicuously
lack of diversity, homogeneous white guys from Harvard, Like, that's
just a And when I got there, Ellie said, Hey,
my sister is a writer. I feel weird. Would you
give her worked? Paul, who's the show owner then? And
I said, Paul, your male to female ratio in the
(30:54):
writer's room is abysmal. And this is really I read this.
It's a one. It's about a Doug committing suicide in
it was really funny and I was like, this is
Carrie Kemper, it's all sister, but it's good, Like don't
let that you know, don't let that nepotism scare you off.
And here we had no nepotism issues on our show. Really,
(31:15):
that said he interviewed her, It was good because that
would have been a hard thing if she hadn't been
able to write. But it got better, and I do
think that it was just like, I don't think there
was malice. I think that's the way it happens in
every writer's room and every and it's like, hey, I
got a show. The people I trust came out of
school with me. Oh, I just happened to go to
Harvard and write for lampoo. I don't think it's malicious,
(31:36):
like Conan O'Brien's like, hey, Greg, come out. I'm working
on this great show called The Simpsons. You should really
check it out. Thanking of the Hill. Then, you know,
I don't think it's an agenda. I'm just glad that. Um,
it got better over the course of the years. Yeah,
what we talked about this a little bit, but I
don't want to miss it. If there's something what specifically
(31:58):
made editing the Office harder than a traditional show, um,
I think it was the volume. Let's start with the volume.
The scripts were long, so I think you were, I
think you'd have like seven days to complete your cut,
so you figure, if it's a forty page script, which
more and more often they were, you were cutting a
(32:20):
forty minute assembly or editor's cut, and then from that
there were just so many steps to get it to time,
and cutting twenty minutes out of a forty minute show
is it's kind of bonkers. I mean, that's why I
think the NBC dot Com came up, The Accountants and
all of those great spinoffs, which at the time webisodes
(32:41):
were great. I mean we do webisodes and deleted scenes.
I mean it was you could use the word overshooting.
I mean I liked it because I remember Ed was
once saying like, this is crazy that we're shooting. This
is crazy. That's what we're doing. This is not fair.
We were working as to the book, like it's not
it's not normal. But it made the show better because
(33:02):
we had so many different Like I remember, there was
a storyline it was Jim and Pam had a silent fight,
and it was established you track it throughout the day.
It was really well done, well directed, well acted, and
at the end of the day, Jim or Pam I
can't even remember at this point says I'm really sorry,
and they hold hands in the parking lot as they
(33:23):
walked to their car, and it's resolved. Or I don't
even know that anyone apologizes. I think it just looks
and no one will ever know that storyline, you know,
like all these and that when that one didn't even
make it to deleted scenes, and now it was really good,
Like there were so many good C D e F
storylines never got to see, right, Yeah, they're somewhere buried
(33:46):
in avid Um archives. So you did an interview with
on the Ringer and you said, when you do documentaries,
you have to be comprehensive and watch everything that the
subject has ever done. And you said, subliminably, subliminably, Oh
my god, it's Michael Scott, subliminably through osmosis. I was
(34:07):
getting my comedy doctorate watching the best of the best,
comprehensively seeing everything they've ever done. So as a result,
I kept working towards comedy. Um. Was there anything in
terms of comedy that you learned from the office. I
remember I had a quote board, and I don't see
if I can find it on my quote board. I don't.
(34:29):
It was like a white board, and um, I had
one quest and I never put who said what? But um,
I'll tell you who was. There was one I heard
is I do have it. I'll say it directly. I
compulled some of that air out and then it says
there's a lot of comedy in that air. And it
(34:49):
was me trying to get a show to time, and
I said, I could, you know, rather than cut stuff,
I can pull some are out. And it was Paul
Eberstine who's like, there's a lot of comedy in that air,
and I think it's letting things breathe. It's just such
a pacing issue. It's a dance. It's a rhythm. They say,
if you know, if if you're a good dancer, you'll
be a good editor, or you can't be a good
(35:09):
editor unless you can dance, because it's all pacing in rhythm.
And that's so true, and that's why those reaction passes
was like kind of gold for us, you know, just
when a scene wasn't working, just anyone. I mean, there's
the famous gym. Every two seconds is like commenting for
you and you're saying, but I also liked it when
it was coming from someone else's point Jim was the
(35:31):
great entree in the first few seasons, but I feel
like everyone had their own particular take on the comedy,
which would make that reaction that much more powerful. Like
going to create oblivious, you know, that's just as funny,
like not like everyone's like, what's going on in there?
And he's just like, you're not even paying a dungeon,
Like that's funny too. I just found another picture of
you and me. This is I like this picture so
(35:53):
much because this picture is us eating lunch together. Like
that's like it was like high school, right, Like we're
just sitting and we all, like you just sat down
and ate with people. You know, that's not the norm
on other shows. It just doesn't. And you know, we
were there long enough that people went through big life stuff.
Like not to get into too much detail, but I
(36:14):
got divorced on the office, and I can tell you
there's no other job I would have wanted to have
been on during that hard time. You know. I remember
going to a table read once and being like, Paul,
I have to go to my therapists and he was like, oh,
co go, you know, you know, like just a given,
like just such a warm, welcoming just a really really
I think from the top down, you know, you had
(36:35):
Ken koppas Greg Daniels, Steve Carrell, So which one of
those guys is a jackass? It's going to make your
life a living out? And I'm just think those are
I mean I barely worked with Ken and after the
office he kind of took me under his wing when
I was starting to direct more and was just like, Okay,
(36:55):
you can do this, you know, and he would just
like I remember the first show, one of the first
shows I got was a show called um oh my gosh,
I can't remember what it was called something men in
the title. Anyway, it was canceled, but he was helping
me prep. He was just like, Okay, what's your biggest scene.
Let's talk it through, Like just really just kind kind
kind and like saying with Greg Daniels. I did a
(37:15):
movie called Set it Up. He came in the first
person I wanted to show it too was Greg Daniels, Like,
come into post, what's good, what's bad. There's this moment
where these two are having this conversation and it's like
she the girl, is holding the guy to task for
his bad acts, and Greg's like, you need to be
in a close up here. You need to see the
(37:36):
moment where she changes her mind and she's letting him
back him he's so good, Like he's just so good.
He's like, you need to see her opening the door
and he was dead right. No one touched that scene
after Greg, which is really neat. You know. So you start,
(38:10):
much like Matt Soon Randall them as camera people. In reality,
you're editing documentaries. You come on the office and then
you start directing. You've talked about it a little bit
up to now. It was something that occurred to me.
You know, you become a director from a very particular background,
(38:34):
right like editing, assembling and post and Matt Soon and
Randall like from a really from a camera perspective. But
the thing that I remember is people on your side
wanting to have conversations with actors about like how because
that was something that was new. Did you feel that
as well? I remember Ken quab Is giving me some
(38:59):
great advice. He said, everyone there has a job to do.
Sound Guys got to do so and make sure it
sounds good. Actors have to be true to their characters.
Writers have to make sure the jokes are told correctly
and the story is told dps to make sure everyone
is on camera that should be and it's blocked correctly
along with the director. But he said, but the director's
most important job is to represent the audience. And if
the director doesn't get it, the director has to raise
(39:20):
their hand and be the pain in the ass and
say this isn't working, and that nobody wants to do that.
Nobody wants. Everyone's gonna look at you and be like,
oh the funk. I want to go home to my family.
I don't want to do this. We're just and I've
had to like be you have to be unpopular sometimes
to do that, and I it was such helpful advice,
(39:41):
you know. And I remember I was I was setting
up a scene and here comes trouble in the conference room.
It was a party, and um Greene came in and
he was like, oh no, no, no, I don't think
I would be here, and we'd already we'd rehearsed it,
and he's like, this is working. So he's like, I
think I should do this. This isn't He gave his
opinion and I was like, okay, let's do that, and
(40:02):
we started and it didn't work at all, and we
had to come back to the way I had it done,
and it was like, oh, I had done my homework.
I had a reason for I'd really worked, like I
take prep very seriously. And I understand why Rain came
at me because he didn't I didn't. He didn't have
confidence in me, Like why should he. It was my
(40:24):
second episode of Dragon TV ever, and so just learning
that dance of like when to speak up, when to
stand back, and then slowly gain trust. I mean that's
everything is gaining trust and then proving myself. Like so,
I remember there was a scene with John and he
was walking out with Jenna and and he's like, I
think we should have You know, John, a lot of
(40:46):
the times had really good ideas. I wish he came
up with them before we lit. He'd always come up
with such he was like he would dial in when
it was actually the cameras up and at Jim would
never do this, and we would always say, you're absolutely
right Brown University. Why didn't you come back and bring
that Brown University education to the rehearsal? Where was your
(41:08):
head in? So um, He's like, I think it worked
better this way, and he said, let's let's try that
and and let's do John's way, and then he did
it a couple of times he like your way was better.
So like it was just like finding that like dance
of like working with people gaining trust. And then after
that I felt like, Okay, I could do this. But
I remember the first day was like starting with talking heads.
It was a very gentle entree into directing, and Paul
(41:32):
would come for every rehearsal and there were lots of
safety nuts for me that first week. But I remember
halfway through the day of my first day ever directing,
already two questions or lobbed your way that morning and
I was like I can do this, I can do this.
It was lunch. I was like collecting myself and I
was like, why would anyone want to do this? Like
I was literally and then by the end of the
(41:53):
day I turned the corner and I was like I
want to do this, like but it was that halfway
mark was like brutal kind of Okay, I can I
can do this. I can do this, and then coming
around and be like, oh, not only can, I want
to and that's what you do now, And that's what
I mean. I never stopped loving editing. I love directing,
but I really there's something there's your building a world
(42:16):
in an edit bay, and um writers create out of
the blue sky. But I feel like editors are like
sculptors that work with negative space and they shave it
away and it's a different kind of writing. And I
think there's something wonderful about seeing what something can be
and realizing it. Like I felt that way so strongly.
(42:37):
I was so proud of the finale of the series.
There's this one pam talking head that like, I can't
wait to show my daughter when she's older, where she says,
you know, this has been such an amazing experience and
the documentary has been so invaluable. If I could talk
to my younger self, I wish I could have told
her to seize the moment sooner and just stand up
(42:57):
for yourself and go for it. Like it was so powerful.
I just even thinking about it makes me like misty
because it's just like, as a woman, you were just
not seeing that on TV, you know, and it was
such a powerful message. So it was a really that
was a really special just the whole ending was sad
and special, and it's all a blur because we were
also pulling all nighters when we were doing it, but
(43:18):
it was so worth it, and I think we all
knew when it came to an end that one it
was the right time, and to that we've all been
part of something extraordinary. You're proud of how we ended?
Oh my god, yeah, are you? I mean the last
two I mean ARM could have been a a RM
could have been the finale as well. I feel like
(43:39):
both episodes are so strong, but like having Steve come
back was great. That was such a special day too,
you know when he came for the wedding and you
guys didn't know. You guys know some some some people
knew obviously, the studio didn't know. The network and studio,
we're piss We hit the dailies, we went to another
we outsourced thumb. They never knew and it aired. They
(44:01):
saw the morning it aired. They were so pissed, really,
they were piste. Well what we didn't want them to
promo it and it would have you know, he would
have been in the promo. And Greg had such a
guilty conscience and he's like, all these people are asking
if he's coming back, and we have to lie and
say no. And he's like Ken don't you feel like
an awful person for lying to everybody and kids like
(44:21):
not at all. I feel I feel nothing. I don't care.
He didn't want them to ruin it. So what we
did was, yeah, it was great, and you won for
that episode, yeah, Dave and I. So I was cutting
the first half and Dave was cutting the second half,
and then Greg swapped us halfway through and he said, Claire,
(44:42):
you finish, and Dave you start with the beginning. And
it was like a mind fun because that's the air.
You don't I've seen all the dailies. I've seen every
inch of it, and then you're just swapping it out
and it was crushing. But then it was great, you know,
like fresh eyes and everything. So I think that is
really great. And Dave and I hit at that point,
we're just like Ying and Yang. We were very very new,
(45:05):
very much what each other's strengths were. And he just
he'd been there since season one, so I mean, he
just was such a He's an encyclopedia. He's so much
better at me. Like people will throw out a certain
episode like okay, what season, Like he just knows that said.
I also haven't gone back and watched them in a
long time like form for me, someone bring up some
(45:26):
serious emotions like Niagara or something like. That was such
a great episode to edit. It was wonderful because there
was music like I also cut the scene in arm
even though Dave and I would share like so if
I was ahead, I would just take some scenes from him,
and I was. I was good at doing I've done
all these like documentaries where you had to do these
opening montages. So for the Jim and Pam, the video
(45:48):
that Jim gives Pam, I cut that to snow Patrol
in Dave's episode because I like doing those things and
he hates doing those things. And um and I got
to do the Niagara a dancing thing to the Chris
Brown song and that was really fun. And I remember
getting to use Randall's footage that he shot I feel
like Super eight and Niarea. They went to Niagara Falls,
(46:12):
and I think he I know he shot film. I
don't think it was Super sixteen, but it could have
been Super sixteen. Yeah, you know, it was probably Super sixteen.
It was not shitty enough to be Super and I
remember seeing and so this was very much like cutting
a documentary because they didn't speak so Um, there's the
last scene of Niagara where Jim and Pam are on
the bow of the boat and he puts his arm
around her and he looks right into the camera and
(46:34):
he just like it's not even like cocky, it's just
like sweet, like I got her, you know. And Jim,
John and Jenna came into my bay to see it.
They were like, we need to see this show. We
need to sign off on this big, big one. And
after that, I'd like turned around and they're bawling, and
I was like, yes, because that's all you want to
(46:55):
do is make people cry, like you were in comment
but like for the poignant moments, all you want is
to make people gray. It was awesome. It was awesome
then coming in there and seeing we kind of shared
this and no one else will know that, you know,
but it was really a sweet moment to be a
part of in their journey, you know, and just almost
be just a witness to it. Um, put on the headphones.
(47:34):
I just want to play one thing for you here.
This is from the finale that you cut. I thought
it was weird when you picked us to make a documentary,
but all in all, I think an ordinary paper company
like dunder Mifflin was a great subject for a documentary.
(47:55):
There's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. Isn't that
kind of the point? So Greg having written that, clearly
he thinks that's what the point was. What did you
think I was of the office? I don't know if
(48:17):
he talked about this, but he told me that whenever
he was stimied or stuck, the moral compass of the
show was was Pam. And whenever he was stuck and
what would what would Pam do? Here? He would actually
say what would Suzanne do here? Did he tell you this? Oh?
It's it's like the best love letter. I don't think
I'm speaking out of school here. I thought that was
(48:38):
like the most romantic thing to say. You know, he
loves his wife so much he put her in Pam.
He basically created this whole series. You think it's Michael Scott,
but it's also Pam. She is the moral compass of
the show, and she is the person that you you
want to aspire to be as good as and be
(48:59):
it good enough to be with if you're a Jim.
For me, the whole series is all about growing up,
and when a character grows up, they don't need to
be in the office. I also think that Michael Scott
from me, I was nostalgic for because his story, his
arc is a beautiful one. You know. He is a
(49:21):
person whose mom is screening out his phone calls at
night when he's all alone in his office with no
friends or anyone to hang out in, no family to
go home to, and you see his pain. And then
the next morning he comes in and he asks like
a blow hard buffoon, and he tries to force his
entire workforce into being his family and friends. And I
forgive him every moment of it because I was led
(49:42):
into his vulnerability and I saw his cracks, and I
understand why he's doing what he's doing, and I'm rooting
for him, and so over the course of it, you
see each season he grows a little more, and by
season seven he is finally worthy of Holly, worthy of
a family. He's grown, He's become the best version of himself,
(50:05):
and I'm rooting for him and Holly. So for me,
it was such a clean exit, you know, it was
so well deserved, so well told, so that I wanted
to see that journey in others, you know, And and
it was nice that there was more space for other
people to have those same goals, and it was nice
to see Jim and Pam go beyond the fairy tale
and see like, whoa, there's bumps in marriage? Like that
(50:25):
was really that was great. I liked being able to
service more of the characters as a result. But I
do think that that's kind of what I was alluding
to earlier. It is giving equal time to lots of
people who don't normally get I mean, like just the
very fact that I said the moral compass as a woman,
I didn't want to beat a dead horse. But there's
not parody yet, you know, So it's nice that she
(50:49):
got that part in the show. And then it was
nice that everyone got their stories told, like what what
what primetime show had some of the heartfelt moments that
Phillis Scott. You know how many assistant casting directors get
to go on become on a network comedy start Like
I mean, it's just crazy, like the trajectory and the
(51:09):
impact and the humanity. I keep coming back to that
word humanity, but it really is a utopic society, and
I think that it's not shocking that kids are gravitating
towards that today because I think we see just the
opposite every day in the news, and it's it's so disheartening,
you know, and I want to go live in scranted
(51:30):
in the world of the office, that's the appeal now,
I think. So. I mean, it's not about getting rich,
it's not about being popular. It's about being happy and
being kind to others. I mean, on very few other
shows do you see people being so kind to each other.
I mean, I'm not a religious person, but I can
(51:52):
see why people kind of go to the church of
the office. Um, when Pam is having a vulnerable moment
with Dwight and then he says, you're on your period,
you know, it's undercuts. It's like you're getting to all
those like feelings. And then of course it's a comedy,
so it's but like he's really trying. He's a jackass,
really trying right, right, the intention is there, Yeah, and
(52:16):
you're kind of route like, oh, he can almost do
this right, almost almost not quite. Yeah, it wouldn't be
a comedy if you could. Right. I'll just tell you
this weird thing that I've settled on here in terms
of that that your brain would tell you that the
(52:37):
more general would be the more universal. But with the Office,
the characters were drawn so specifically, and that ultimately that
is the thing that I think has made it more universal,
that it's actually so specific. Yeah, instead of pleasing all
the people, you're just being true to a character building
and telling a story, which ultimately does make it appeal
(52:59):
to more people. It's counterintuitive, yeah, but I mean I
always get so frustrated and just been working on anything
new where you are underestimating the sophistication of the audience.
They are smart and they can sniff out phoniness so quickly,
especially now and like peak TV. You know, people are
(53:20):
just so smart. And I think The Office was ahead.
It was ten years ahead of its time. You just
was the American officer, I mean in the British Office. Well,
and now we're maybe that's it. Maybe it was ten
years ahead of its time. And now because as you
said before, the show is bigger now. It is like
people will be like, I watched ever episode I see
(53:42):
your name. I felt like their kids, they're watching it
with their kids. My peers are watching They never watched
my peers didn't watch it when I worked on it,
but they're watching it now with their children. Right, Well,
thank you so much for coming to talk to me. Sure,
this has been great. I am so happy for you
and your success. Thank you. And you're so smart and
(54:04):
thoughtful and I just so appreciate and care for you.
And oh, thank you. Right, that's awfully right back at you.
Thank you for thinking of me. One thing I didn't
mention is that, you know, we still work. We still
work in this town and I see people once in
a blue moon, I'll bump into um, Greg the p
(54:24):
A or um you know. I worked with Danny Chun
from time to time, or a writer that we've worked with.
But a lot of times on sets, you know, you'll
see someone I've worked with, Kelly, and you go up
and you're like, Okay, who's the so and so, Like
who's like MAT's own over here? And like who you know,
who's the no nonsense and who can I talk to
about this? And it's just like a shorthand. I call
(54:45):
it going to the University of Greg Daniels because we
all went to school with under him. He was our master, professor, principal,
and then we all shot out and went elsewhere but
remembered each other, and oh that's my school. Made over there,
so I that's the person I have a shorthand with
and when I see that familiar face, it's like coming home.
And I just never i'd never, never, never take the
(55:06):
office for granted. I don't take any of those years
for granted. Every day I walked into that office, I
was aware of how good I had it, how good
the people, how protected we were, how wonderful it was
to be on that stage away from everything, and how
kind everybody was to everybody, even when they were in
a mood. People were not jackasses. They just weren't. It
(55:28):
just wasn't tolerated, which is wonderful. Yeah, oh my god,
thank you so much. Like you're I mean, I forget
that you're a real smart I know I'm not. Yeah, Oh,
(55:57):
how amazing is she? Thank you, Claire for your wisdom
and for everything you brought to the show. I am
so happy to be an alumni of the University of
Greg Daniels, and I love that we got to have
this this little class reunion together from all of us
(56:17):
here at the office Deep Dive, especially me since I'm talking.
Have a great week and we will be back next
Tuesday with another brilliant woman from the office, but this time, oh,
she is someone who was in front of the camera.
See you next week the Office. Deep Dive is hosted
(56:46):
an executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner alongside our executive
producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producers
are Emily Carr and Diego Tapia, and our intern is
Hannah Harris. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore.
Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great
(57:07):
friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky.
Host
Brian Baumgartner
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