June 1, 2021 • 45 mins
Brian returns to his conversation with the “heart of The Office”, Jenna Fischer aka Pam Beasley. Jenna reveals her only regret from the show (ugh, thanks, Toby!), how Rainn is both deeply soulful and a curmudgeon, and how Steve has a really good idea for a reboot.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is Jenna Fisher, I played Pam Beasley. Hello, folks,
thank you so much for joining me here today. That's right,
she's back. Uh. This is the office Deep Dive and
(00:26):
I am your host, Brian baum Gartner. Today I am
so thrilled to be bringing you the second half of
my conversation with Jenna, and this time we are diving
right in to the good stuff. That's right, the real
reason you're all here Jim and Pam, p B and
(00:48):
freaking Jay. Now, over the years, Jenna and John have
been asked approximately eight billion questions about Jim and Pam's relationship.
So I have to say I almost didn't even want
to ask them about it, but but I did, and
I was blown away by how interesting it was to
(01:11):
talk about Jenna in particular, shared so many incredible insights
into their relationship and and what made it unique on television,
and why she and John are actually not a couple
in real life, and trust me, they are not anyway.
That is just the beginning. This conversation was so fascinating,
(01:33):
as every conversation with Jenna is. I cannot say enough
good things about her. So go ahead and welcome to
your ear holes. Miss Jenna Fisher, Bubble and Squeak. I
love it, Bubble and Squeaker, Bubble and Squeaker cooking at
(01:59):
every More lived from the I was literally laying in
bed last night thinking about this, Like if you think
about the office as like a person or a body
(02:21):
or something, Pam was the heart and your relationship with
so many different people, well, with everybody, but really those three,
you know, Jim and Dwight and Michael, obviously the relationship
with Jim. Why do you think that that relationship resonated
so much with with audiences? Oh, I think it's the
(02:43):
unrequited love. I think we've all been there. We've all
been in love with someone who either didn't love us
or couldn't love us, or because of circumstances or distance
or whatever these things were, we're keeping us from being
able to fully express our feelings. The longing. And then
(03:06):
I think additionally the clear chemistry between the characters that
you could see that they were meant to be together
and you just rooted for them absolutely. But I think
that there was also something about your performance and John's performance.
(03:26):
You showed such heart and vulnerability that I think people
were really rooting for you, whether they had found what
they wanted to or not. Well. I think both Pam
and Jim are very good people. They're polite. It's one
of the reasons why it takes them so long. And uh,
I think you always want the good guy to win,
(03:48):
so I think you did want them to find one
another and be together. It's hopeful, right. Um, Nothing throughout
the entire his tree of the show brought production to
a screeching halt, like a big Jim Pam moment. It's true,
and I say that with love and also with utter frustration.
(04:13):
It Um, Yeah, we really really cared. I mean John
and I would fight hard for what we believed and
we were usually on the same page with Jim and Pam.
We were had like a singular mind when it came
to Jim and Pam. For the most part, there was
often one Jim Pam moment per episode, and it was
either where they're going to connect in some super special
(04:35):
swoony way, or they're gonna misstep in some way where
one of them gets their feelings hurt. And there was
this very fine line that we had to walk all
the time. So, for example, shooting a scene over and
over and over again where this time they can touch hands,
but then we have to do one where they don't
touch hands because it might be too much when their
(04:56):
hand if their hands touch, that might be going to
fall are Or do we end it with a hug?
Or should he kiss her cheek? Before all of these
little ways, how much were they allowed to literally touch
one another, look at each other's eyes, swoon at each other?
I mean we would we would spend hours debating and
shooting alternates of these Jim Pam scenes and ours is
(05:19):
not an exaggeration. But what's amazing is this wasn't like
mystical producers in another land talking about it. This was
you and John who are in there in question? No, No,
not at all. No. I mean, I think it speaks
to the two of you as artists, but I think
(05:41):
that there's also the camera as a character. And what
I recall is you and John, specifically with greg Or
Ken or one of the other directors, you know, sort
of two major questions, who is seeing this moment? Is
the camera seeing this moment? And how does that change
my behavior in this moment? And those were the things
(06:03):
that I feel like well brought production to a screeching hold.
This was one of the most fun elements of working
on our show was this camera as a character, because
this idea that when you know the camera is filming you,
it affects your behavior. It certainly affects Michael's behavior. When
he knows the camera is on him, he performs for
(06:24):
the camera. He does things like makes giant declarations and
pledges of money to Oscar's nephews Walkathon in front of
the camera. But then when he doesn't know that the
camera is shooting through the blinds, he tries to talk
his way out of it. So that is so fun
to play. And similarly with Jim and Pam, how do
(06:44):
Jim and Pam behave when they know they're being watched
and observed, and then how do they behave with one
another when they can't see the camera when the camera
is deep in the kitchen shooting through the blinds. I
absolutely loved those nuances. Those were some of the most
fun things to play with on our show. Yes, well,
and when I directed, and I'm not just saying well
(07:06):
what I directed to get in the fact that I directed,
But there was a moment later on season eight, Kathy
Lindsay broad like Kathy and Jim goes away to Florida,
and Cathy's clearly trying to get the moves on him.
It's taking place in Jim's bedroom and we had to shoot.
The only way to shoot the room was through the windows,
(07:26):
because if the cameras were in the room, we would
not have gotten the interaction between Kathy and Jim that
we ultimately wanted. But then there was a phone call
with Pam. You with Pam that happened there and I
remember sitting in You weren't Invalencia, You were probably home.
Did I not come because I have a very vivid
(07:48):
memory of being there when Jim was a smug bedbug?
Was that your episode smug Bedbugs? I have a memory
of watching Rain and John crack up as John was
a smug bedbug. I think that you came for the
phone call. But we had a huge conversation about you
(08:11):
were involved in what the interaction was between Kathy and Jim,
because John wanted you involved and you wanted to be involved,
and how that interaction, what that meant for your relationship
with Jim. Anyway, I think it just speaks to everybody
wanting to get it right. Yeah, we cared on this
(08:34):
show very deeply. Everybody cared very very much, And I
think that started with Greg. Greg's heart was in this show,
and you could tell, and he delighted. He delighted in
getting it right, and and we would shoot something and
we would all look over at the monitors at Greg
(08:54):
and see if he was doing his little handclap with
his little smile, and he puts his eyes up in
the air, you know, because that's when we knew we
nailed it. And he was such a great barometer for that.
When did you When did you start realizing or noticing
that Jim and Pam's relationship was becoming so important to
(09:17):
people outside and was it infringing on your real life? Well,
realizing that my friend John and I couldn't go anywhere
in public together as friends or else people would lose
their minds. They didn't know how to deal with that.
They didn't know how. And even today people don't know
(09:41):
how John and I are not a couple in real life.
They don't understand it. And I don't know how to
explain it because it's a little bit like telling kids
there's no Santa. It's like I don't want to break
anyone's heart. So it's hard. It's it's really hard. You
should just explain that he's a real pain in the
as in real life. Why would you not just say that?
(10:03):
But that's weird. I have to. I feel like I
have to justify why John and I, which are actually
in love, And the bottom line is we were playing characters.
But I know that if people think of us as
John and Jenna, then it's destroying some of the magic
of Jim and Pam. But I'm not Pam in real
life and he's not Jim in real life, and in
(10:26):
real life we're mismatched. He is perfectly matched with Emily
and I'm perfectly matched with Lee. And you know us
all both, And in fact, I feel like if anyone
wants to marry anyone, they want to marry Emily or Lee,
they don't want to actually marry me or John. Is
(10:47):
that a good description of why John and I are
not imagined real life because you know us both. Yes,
I think that that's a great description. I also think, yeah,
you both were playing characters, and I think that you um,
and you've expressed today how different you are from Pam
and John is different from Jim. People perceive you to
(11:08):
be that even you know, if someone has a couple
of minute interaction with me, they're they're not going to
mistake me for Kevin. And I think that's so true
of like Angela as well. Angela is like a bubbly cheerleader.
She's your best friend in two minutes. She's so not
the bitchy Angela Martin that she plays on the show
(11:29):
most of the time. Oh come on, but but I
do see how John and I the Lion is a
little more blurred, Like you can have an interaction with
John and I and think maybe that we really are
just like Pam or just like Yim. Yes, yeah, um, okay.
Do you have a favorite moment or moments between the
two of you that you've got to play together? Yes.
(11:50):
One of my first favorite moments is when we are
up on the roof eating the grilled cheese sandwiches and
you and Rain are doing at the fireworks out in
the lawn. And that was super special because we had
this skeleton crew. Everyone had gone home for the day
and up until this point we had mostly only ever
(12:13):
been shooting in a big group in the office with
lots of people, and here it was just me and
John on some lawn chairs. It was a summer evening,
like a warm breeze, candlelight. Greg is up on the roof,
just a couple of crew members were up on the roof,
and it was like so peaceful up there, the five
(12:36):
of us and then watching you and Rain, who I
believe we had no way of communicating with, yeah, just
setting off fireworks. It just all felt really real and lovely.
So that moment is one of my favorite moments. And
what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna edit out you're
talking about Greg and the other two crew members up there,
(12:58):
because then you're describing city there with John. That's why
people think it's a warm summer breeze and we were
sitting in lawn chairs on the roof. But some of
it like it's true. It's like, you know, Matt Son
is up on the roof and Greg is there, and
we're all just none of us can believe we're on
the roof. And we had to take this. They had
(13:19):
this old rickety rusted ladder that was on the side
of the roof that everybody else climbed up, but since
John and I were cast members, we weren't allowed, so
they like fork lifted us up there on this wearing
a weird harness. It was very funny. Um, were you
worried when Pam and Jim got married that was gonna
(13:39):
screw things up? I wasn't because we had been together
now for a couple of seasons. So I think the
question was can they get together and be a stable
couple and will we still care? And and I remember
having a conversation with Greg where Greg was like, well,
(13:59):
you know what's going to lose people is if we
just keep manufacturing these affairs and these you know, weird
ways that we keep them apart. That's exhausting and it's
not realistic. And so what we're going to need to
do is bring them together and then give them obstacles
to overcome as a couple. So, rather than obstacles that
(14:23):
keep them from being a couple, give them obstacles to
break through as a couple, like Pam wanting to go
to art school or Jim wanting to start his own business,
or having their first kid or whatever these things were
that they were going to have to weather the storm together,
that that would be more interesting and more realistic, and
people loved it. I think that's so smart, so smart
(14:46):
because but he said, you know what's not going to
be satisfying is if they get together at the end
of season nine after multiple affairs, and like everyone's gonna
be like, Yay, I guess you know. Congrats. I hope
you enjoy your marriage with all your horrible baggage. Look
(15:07):
totally right. That's not a happy ending. I've never heard
that is so smart. Yeah, okay, so I talked again
(15:34):
about sort of that emotional core. Dwight. Talk to me
a little bit about the relationship between the two of
you and how that changed and evolved. I mean, you
were with Jim adversaries and made you crazy forever, and
then ultimately by the end, he says that you're his
best friend. Dwight, doesw does you know? I think it's
(15:59):
that first episode the Injury, when Pam has that line,
Dwight is kind of my friend. But I think there's
other things. You know, Jim and Pam spends so much
time teasing Dwight, and I think even go too far.
A few times in my rewatching of the show, I
think there's a few times when we're like, actually a
(16:20):
little cruel to him that makes me cringe and I
feel like, oh, that wasn't our best moment, but I
appreciate because we allow our characters too. We don't all
every day have perfect moments, right. But it's so hard
for me to think about Pam's relationship with Dwight without
thinking about my relationship to Rain. Rain is a deeply
(16:44):
soulful person. He's also like a curmudgeon ly old man.
He's really cranky sometimes, and on set he would be hilarious.
Do you remember the time do you remember the time
he declared, Oh my god, it was so funny. We
were getting ready to shoot and he said, hold on, wait,
just hold on, everybody, hold on for a second. I
(17:05):
have an announcement. Everyone on Monday's you do not need
to ask me how my weekend was anymore? All right,
every single person asked me how my weekend was. Just
assume it was fine. We were like, where is this
coming from? Right? And I talked to him about this,
(17:25):
and he goes, Jenna, that is not true. I said
that on a Tuesday. I said, only asked me how
my weekend was on Mondays. No more of this bleeding
into Tuesday Mondays. And he went crazy because you and
I know what he was talking about. Because it's five
o'clock in the morning, and every single person that you
passed is like, hello, good morning. How was your weekend?
(17:46):
And he what he was saying was like, you don't
have to talk to me. We just saw each other
on Friday night. We're good, We're good. Yes, it's so true.
So he would be like that guy on this set.
It was like so funny. But then at the same time,
in moments of deep crisis, I have phoned him. I
(18:07):
had a job offer that was going to take me
out of town and would uproot my family for a
period of time that I really wrestled with the decision.
I called him and he counseled me. He is he
has that in him, a type of counselor, and I
value him so deeply in my life. But then like
(18:29):
like he'll call me up and he'll be like, do
you want to go to lunch? And I'm like, yeah,
I mean because you sound like you want to go
so bad, Like is it a chore or do you
want to go? Just like no, I want to lunch
with you, Like all right, let's go to lunch. And
then you go to lunch and I was just sort
of like, are you liking our lunch. Are we having
a good lunch? How are you tell me about you?
(18:49):
And all this so funny, but then like if I
were to do you know what I mean? So it's
like very much like the Pammed White where Pam will
like be like, oh, I love Dwight. I'm gonna go
say something nice to him, and then he'll just be like, Pam,
something about knives, something about snakes or bears, and she's like, yeah, okay, right, okay,
(19:13):
But so I guess, um, I feel deeply loved by Rain,
and I think Pam fell deeply loved by Dwight as well,
Like they had a real bond, they really cared for
one another eventually eventually yeah. Um. Well, and it's similar
to your relationship with Michael, right, I mean from where
that relationship started and him fake firing you to him
(19:38):
leaving and you you having sort of that final moment
with him, Um, what did he say to you? Well,
it wasn't so much what he said to me. Um.
Paul Fie directed that episode Goodbye Michael, and Uh we
were at the airport and Paul Fiq said, Jenna, I
(19:58):
want you to just run up and just say goodbye.
To Steve. Your friend, Steve, this is your last scene
with him, so say goodbye. We're not going to use
the sound. We're just going to have a spy shot
on you. So I thought, okay. So I ran up
to Steve and I just told him all the ways
I was going to miss him and how grateful I
(20:20):
was for his friendship and the privilege of working with him.
And I'm sobbing, and he's sobbing, and we're hugging and
and I didn't want to let him go, and I
didn't want the scene to end. And then finally paulfy
you know, says cut and he was like, Jenna, that
was that was brilliant. Can you do it again? But
just a little faster because it had been like five minutes.
(20:45):
He was like, we just need to tighten it up
a little because they wanted him to actually work ahead
and they had one camera. There was only one shot
that they couldn't edit. Is so great. I was like,
just tighten it up a little, but sweetie, great job.
(21:07):
I guess he could tell. I was like sobbing. Yeah.
In thinking back, honestly, when he Steve leaving to me
was almost more emotional than the show ending. Well, the
thing is is that it wasn't just the character of
Michael that we were losing. We were losing the captain
(21:28):
of our ship, Steve Carrell. And I don't think that
I can say enough how important him as our leader was,
because just the kind of man he is, his work, ethic,
his kindness, his generosity, there was no ego, and to
(21:48):
be led with that, along with Greg's heart, it was
very frightening to me that we were losing him. He
was our compass that pointed us north and us all
in line, and I really worried what's it gonna be
like on set without him. We just all agreed he
was the most important person on set, and we always
(22:11):
wanted the day to be easy for him. He had
the most lines, he had the most work, he had
to drive the show, and we all just collectively were
there to support him. And he was so generous. I
mean I remember, I remember directors would come in who
were new and they wouldn't be able to find Steve,
(22:32):
but he'd just be sitting on the couch. By reception,
We'll be like, oh, he's right there. Because he was
so he wasn't like and I'm here, kind of guy.
You know, he was just and I and I say
this because after working on the Office, I've worked on
many projects where this is not the case, and I
see how that infects a group of people when there
(22:55):
is someone who is leading the ship, who is insecure
and needs a constant an ego boost, And it makes
me even more grateful for how Steve was and how
he is still. I also remember Will Ferrell coming in
and guesting with us, and then I've done movies with
Will Ferrell and he's the same way. And I always thought, wow,
(23:16):
they really have a competition for like greatest person to
work for work with Steve and Will just like nicest
man in Hollywood. But um so, my biggest fear was
even just what is the onset vibe going to be
like without Steve? Not to mention what stories are we
going to tell? Who are we without this leader? And
(23:40):
I'll say it here and this is the only time
I've ever really publicly said this, but it's always disappointed
me that we didn't trust in our core office group
enough to continue the show without bringing in what I
think we thought we needed, which were these big guest
(24:00):
actors to fill steve shoes. And I always felt like
fear drove some decisions two that I does that make sense?
It does make sense. Yeah, I always wondered just what
would that season have been like, like what we then
(24:23):
got with season nine, where we said, no, we're enough,
the bench is deep enough, the talent is there. We
can keep the ship afloat with what we have. Right.
I don't know how you feel about that season eight. No,
I hear what you're saying. I think that there was
fear and what would happen if we didn't have someone
(24:43):
else helming? Because being the boss changes the character. Yeah,
so Dwight as the boss is not Dwight, that's right.
Dwight is the character who wants to be the boss,
who's always angling to be the boss, but who had
does not actually have the authority. So if you make
him the boss, then who is that guy? So it
(25:04):
does make sense that they felt like they're needed to
be and that was the question who should be the boss?
This was the conversation you should be the boss? I
mean I remember being up in the writer's room and
people ask me who I thought should be the boss,
and I was like, guys, I don't know, I don't know.
They were still trying to get like anybody's opinion, Like,
(25:26):
does anyone have a perspective on this? Well? And I
think as a character it was Jim. I mean I
think Jim was the most I mean he was lazy,
he was the most well suited technical level should be
promoted to that job. Correct, Yes, in terms of his
interaction with people, his ability to lead and sort of
(25:46):
inspire people. But I think then that messes up storylines
in a way, that for sure. So I guess you
know when you when when we get back to this,
it is like, okay, well we need some other force
of nature to come in and be the boss of
these people so that they can stay being them. Right, Yeah,
(26:08):
I don't know that was that was tricky, but we
made it through and we got some great episodes that season,
and then we went into season nine where we sort
of just didn't have a boss for a while. Remember
Andy was our boss, but then he got lost on
the boat and then we just sort of we were like, oh,
here's an answer, it's an empty office. There's no regional
(26:29):
manager anymore. Um, what did you think about bringing the
sound man breaking the fourth while and bringing Brian onto
the show? Was there a conference. There was a major conference,
many conferences. So for season nine, John and I were producers.
We were given those titles because we were brought in
to really discuss the Jim Pam arc of the final season,
(26:52):
and so we spent a lot of time up in
the writer's room talking about all the beats of that
story and what it would be. I did many on
camera auditions with various brian's to be the boom operator,
and then many discussions about who exactly it should be.
There was this one actor who was just phenomenal, who
just looked so much like John Krasinski that we had
(27:14):
a whole discussion about whether or not he should look
too much like John Krasinski, if that would feel like Pam,
you know what I mean, and like all this stuff,
and so anyway, I liked that storyline. I thought it
was really interesting because another part of season nine was
that we were going to release the documentary that you
(27:35):
were going to see what how it affects these people's
lives for them to see themselves in a documentary, And
I think that's really great closure for the show as well.
Perfect I think it was an underrated ending of the show.
I felt like Greg very clearly had a story that
he wanted to tell. Yeah, And I think that when
(27:57):
you're live that you're anticipate and there's almost nothing that
can meet your expectations. But I think if you go
back and you watch it, you see just the brilliance
of how he tied it all up truly. Um, when
did you find out that Steve was coming back for
the finale? Did you know early on? I feel like
(28:19):
I almost always knew, because John and I had been
up in the writer's room talking about the finale and
we were sworn secrecy. So I feel like I knew
for a pretty long time, and I knew that there
was a lot of trickery going on that he was
not written into the final script. At the final table read,
(28:44):
there was a scene between Dwight and Steve, but it
was written between White and Creed, and Creed read the
lines at the final table read. And that was because
they did not want anyone at the network to know
that Steve was coming back. It was huge secret. They
didn't want NBCPR to like, yeah, please it and and
(29:07):
to ruin the surprise of Steve being in the finale. UM,
what's your memory from that? Were do you more laughy
or cry like in the table reads? Oh? I think
I cried a little bit every single day. I was
a crier at the table read. I was crying. That
(29:27):
was really emotional. That last table read. Chris Workman, our
camera operator assistant, took a photo of that last table
read that Angela has blown up in her house on
her wall. That is fantastic of that last moment right
after we said the last line. And then I remember
(29:47):
that Pam has the last line of the show, and
they had originally scheduled it so that that would be
the very last thing we shoot. And I think it
was John or some other people said, oh, man, well,
we don't all want to be wrapped. And then Jenna
has this talking head and and Greg said something like,
(30:10):
oh yeah, yeah, we got to have the last scene
be with everybody. And after I finished my talking head,
we shot the b roll of me taking the picture
off the wall and all of us walking out the door.
And we did it, I don't know how many times,
five or six, but we would take the thing off
the wall and all walk out and then we would
(30:32):
all stand off camera by the elevator, all of us,
many of us crammed by this elevator, and there would
be this moment where we would wait to see if
they were going to say cut going again or cut
that's a wrap. And I'm getting choked up just thinking
about that because those seconds of waiting and every time
(30:54):
I just wanted them to say cut going again, because
I knew when they said that's a wrap, that that
was a wrap up. That was it. I'd never shoot
the office again. And when they said that's a wrap,
I just burst into tears and started hugging the closest
people that I could find. And and it was it
was really, it was just really really crazy and emotional. Yeah,
(31:17):
will you play that. I thought it was weird when
you picked us to make a documentary, But all in all,
I think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was
a great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of
beauty and ordinary things, Isn't that kind of the point
(31:49):
to me? That's that's what Gregg thinks it was about
that there's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. What
do you think it was about, Oh, Greg Daniels, I
think that's what it was about. Yeah, I do. I also, um,
I always thought selfishly because it was my job to
(32:11):
view the show through my character. It's not lost on
me that when Pam was ready to break free of
dunder Mifflin, the show ended. So I always kind of
thought it was the journey of a girl becoming a woman,
finding herself going out into the world. When we meet her,
she's trapped behind this desk, and she sort of slowly
(32:31):
moves to sales and then finds the man she loves
and starts this family. And then when she's really ready,
she really fights against leaving. And then when she's ready
to go, it's all over because the documentary doesn't stop
when Michael leaves, so it's not really a documentary about
Michael Scott. You know, they decided to stop making the
(32:56):
documentary when Pam leaves. That's so interesting. Do you think
(33:19):
The Office could be made today? No, I don't think
it could. Well, I don't know if it could be
made today. It's a good question. Well, first of all,
something I want to point out our question I want
to ask you is people always ask us if we're
all really friends in real life, and I don't even
think saying that we're friends in real life accurately communicates
(33:42):
how deeply I feel for you and everybody. It's a
like a love of family, Like I can't explain it.
Do you think if we've made this show in the
age of smartphones and whatnot, that we would be as
deeply connected? Like? Don't you think? Inc like the circumstances
(34:02):
of us being trapped on that set for the first
season with no working computers, no phones, no internet, nothing,
just a troop of actors and artists trapped in a
room for twelve hours a day playing. We never absorbed
ourselves and our phones or emails or other work or anything.
(34:24):
And I think that that lent itself to part of
the magic. And I just wonder if if you try
to put us all in a room today, I don't know,
when we just have our phones and our desks. I
think that maybe I don't know, Maybe I think that
we for sure. What I think is we were a
(34:45):
collective group of people with differing backgrounds and experiences and training.
It was like we were an old time theater troupe,
yes stuck together. And we weren't all famous. No, we
came from a place of just wanting to do good work. Well.
When Lee and I got married, I had invited a
(35:08):
girlfriend of mine that I'd gone to high school with
from St. Louis, and she was so excited to come
to the wedding and she said, if they're going to
be famous people there, you know? And I said, no,
not really, We're not really friends with a lot of
famous people, you know. And then she's like, well, are
the cast members from the office going to be there?
I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, there'll be there, and she
was like, well they're famous, and I'm like, oh, yeah,
that's right. I forgot. But even now today, I don't
(35:34):
think of us that way. I still always think of
us as the people in the room before anyone cared
or anyone knew who we were, and so being on
that journey together as well, I think really bonded us.
But I don't know if we could make the show today.
It's it's really hard to say. It was such a
(35:55):
moment in time. Can you make a show today with
total unknown? I don't know, Silicon Valley kind of there's
other shows. Well, let me ask why do you think
the show is more popular now than it was when
we was on. My answer is very simple. The show
(36:15):
is excellent. It's excellent. It is absolutely brilliantly executed, and
it holds up because it's just that good. Really, But
you know it's funny. I started this podcast with Angela
where we watch an episode of the Office. We started
from the beginning. We break it down. This was not
(36:39):
my this is not a plug moment. We were about
to go there in a minute, but anyway, go ahead. Now.
What I was going to say is Angela and I
are doing this podcast and we have to watch an
episode of the Office and then we discuss it. So
I've been watching the show from the very beginning. Had
you watched the show since they aired, you had not.
I had seen a few here and there. I had
(37:01):
seen the dinner party I had. I had been in
a trailer on a job and I had a teeny
tiny television mounted to the wall of my trailer. Was
so small. She'm not joking right now. She just held
up her fingers and showed three inches. I don't think
the now, it's more like five inches. It was smaller
(37:21):
than a laptop screen. It was very tiny, and it's
so I was so that's what she said. I was
so tickled by it that I took a picture and
I sent it to Steve and John and Ed and
Angela and all of us who had been in that
scene where we were laughing so hard at Michael's tiny
(37:42):
flat screen TV. And then that made me want to
watch that episode. So then I went and watched the
dinner Party episode, and then a few examples of things
like that where you're flipping through and you an episode
comes on or something like that. But no, I have
not seen most of these episodes since they aired, so
it's been really cool for me. And I have to say,
(38:06):
I really get why people are so excited about the show. Like,
as I watch it again, I'm really watching it almost
as a fan, and it's weird that I'm on it
in some ways. When I'm watching myself, I've always thought
it was real. I is that a fact? I don't know.
(38:29):
But before I started doing that, I was on Greg
to do a reunion special or revived the office in
some way, selfishly because I just want to work with
all you all again, and because I know Steve has
a really good idea, and I thought, let's get Steve's
idea going. Come on, Greg, come on, Greg, you gotta
do it. Well, now that I've been rewatching the show,
(38:55):
I wrote Greg and email recently and I said, Greg, Um,
I don't think you should reopen the show. It's it
is so perfect just as it is. Like, I don't
think we should now. I was such a champion for
doing it for so long, and now I'm realizing maybe
it's exactly perfect just as it is, and you don't
(39:17):
want to have this weird extra seven years later episode
that we made. Um, I don't know. Well, he do have.
Here's the beauty is I have the ability to edit
out whatever I say right now. I have no interest
in it in doing it in a reunion episode. But
(39:41):
have you heard Steve's idea. It's a great idea. It
has a good idea. But if we did it in Scranton, Brian,
what if that's the thing that we come back for,
is we shoot an episode finally in Scranton. Steve's idea?
All right, Well, I'm tempting you. But at the same time,
(40:02):
I think the show is just perfect as it is.
Although we do have an unproduced episode pet Day. There's
one episode of the office called pet Day. Well it
wasn't shot that we never shot. That's right, I have
the script. I have let you do. In fact, I
signed scripts, obviously to give away to charity. I have
a gigantic box of scripts that because we would get
(40:26):
multiple per week. It was not great for the environment,
but we would get more, and they're in my garage
and boxes. And I reached in and grabbed one and
it was pet Day pet Day? And I thought, what
if I had signed that? And I mean, thank goodness,
I looked at what the title was, because that could
have been true. I could have gotten in trouble for that. Well.
I said to Greg, what if we do a special
where we just do a staged reading of pet Day
(40:49):
and we all come together and we read pet Day.
Wasn't there a reason we didn't do pet Day? Animal cruelty?
I believe it was the reason we didn't do pet
Day because there's some awful bird death in it or
something I can't remember death and a porcupine in Dwight's
desk we did, and Angela throws a cat and a
(41:12):
cat and one gets frozen. And no, there's Greg must
not like animals. Um, is there anything else anything else
that you want covered that you feel like we didn't?
I mean, obviously there's so much I know, I know,
I don't know you did. You were very good. I
(41:33):
can't think of anything, really, I think something that's really
interesting to talk about two, because you talk about how
there were like the theater people and the comedians, and
then there were the improv people, but there were also
all of these ways that we were weirdly connected like that.
Phillis and I both grew up in St. Louis, as
(41:56):
did Ken kuoppas he grew up in Belleville, Illinois, which
is basically St. Louis. And then also our a d
rusty mom mood grew up in St. Louis. So there
were four of us St Louis's. Then there were a
bunch of those Boston guys. You've got John and Steve
and b J and Mike Scher. Then the fact that
(42:18):
like b J and John went to the same high
school and high school, you and Ed went to the
same high school. And Angela and Oscar were in an
improv group together, and she walked on set and was like,
oh my god, Oscar, you got cast in this. It
was a complete shock to her. She'd done improv with Kate.
(42:38):
So there were these ways where we'd all been kind
of circling each other in this weird way, and then
all finally came together. There were so many coincidences in
how we were connected to Yes. I remember shooting a
scene for webisodes and was in the annex camera on me.
(43:00):
I was shooting a talking head and suddenly I saw
Ed Helms walking behind the I was like, Ed, what
what are you? And he was there to meet with
Greg and about joining the show. This is between season
two and three. Yeah, it's crazy. Um, thank you so much.
I love you, Brian. I appreciate you coming. I hope
(43:24):
this has been some fun. I could talk for hours
about our show. I love that you're doing this because
I want to hear what everybody says. Yeah, well there
you go. I love you, I love you. Thank you.
(43:48):
That is a rap on Jenna Fisher here at the
office deep dive Jenna, thank you so much for sharing
your time with us. I mean, look, I didn't want
to say this to your face, but I think that
we all know Kevin was the real emotional core of
the office. I mean, you can keep thinking Pam, but
(44:11):
I say it's keV Dog. But you were so great here.
I'm gonna let you have it. I'll even forgive the
fact that you're a Cardinals fan. Go Dodgers listeners. Thank
you so much for joining us, even all your Cardinals fans,
and get ready because next week. Oh it's the big one, folks,
It's the Big ConA, the big Cheese, the big guy upstairs,
(44:34):
Steve Correl. Have a great week. The Office. Deep Dive
is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside
our executive producer, Langlee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
(44:56):
our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant edit
is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by Seth Olandsky
This is Jenna Fisher, I played Pam Beasley. Hello, folks,
thank you so much for joining me here today. That's right,
she's back. Uh. This is the office Deep Dive and
(00:26):
I am your host, Brian baum Gartner. Today I am
so thrilled to be bringing you the second half of
my conversation with Jenna, and this time we are diving
right in to the good stuff. That's right, the real
reason you're all here Jim and Pam, p B and
(00:48):
freaking Jay. Now, over the years, Jenna and John have
been asked approximately eight billion questions about Jim and Pam's relationship.
So I have to say I almost didn't even want
to ask them about it, but but I did, and
I was blown away by how interesting it was to
(01:11):
talk about Jenna in particular, shared so many incredible insights
into their relationship and and what made it unique on television,
and why she and John are actually not a couple
in real life, and trust me, they are not anyway.
That is just the beginning. This conversation was so fascinating,
(01:33):
as every conversation with Jenna is. I cannot say enough
good things about her. So go ahead and welcome to
your ear holes. Miss Jenna Fisher, Bubble and Squeak. I
love it, Bubble and Squeaker, Bubble and Squeaker cooking at
(01:59):
every More lived from the I was literally laying in
bed last night thinking about this, Like if you think
about the office as like a person or a body
(02:21):
or something, Pam was the heart and your relationship with
so many different people, well, with everybody, but really those three,
you know, Jim and Dwight and Michael, obviously the relationship
with Jim. Why do you think that that relationship resonated
so much with with audiences? Oh, I think it's the
(02:43):
unrequited love. I think we've all been there. We've all
been in love with someone who either didn't love us
or couldn't love us, or because of circumstances or distance
or whatever these things were, we're keeping us from being
able to fully express our feelings. The longing. And then
(03:06):
I think additionally the clear chemistry between the characters that
you could see that they were meant to be together
and you just rooted for them absolutely. But I think
that there was also something about your performance and John's performance.
(03:26):
You showed such heart and vulnerability that I think people
were really rooting for you, whether they had found what
they wanted to or not. Well. I think both Pam
and Jim are very good people. They're polite. It's one
of the reasons why it takes them so long. And uh,
I think you always want the good guy to win,
(03:48):
so I think you did want them to find one
another and be together. It's hopeful, right. Um, Nothing throughout
the entire his tree of the show brought production to
a screeching halt, like a big Jim Pam moment. It's true,
and I say that with love and also with utter frustration.
(04:13):
It Um, Yeah, we really really cared. I mean John
and I would fight hard for what we believed and
we were usually on the same page with Jim and Pam.
We were had like a singular mind when it came
to Jim and Pam. For the most part, there was
often one Jim Pam moment per episode, and it was
either where they're going to connect in some super special
(04:35):
swoony way, or they're gonna misstep in some way where
one of them gets their feelings hurt. And there was
this very fine line that we had to walk all
the time. So, for example, shooting a scene over and
over and over again where this time they can touch hands,
but then we have to do one where they don't
touch hands because it might be too much when their
(04:56):
hand if their hands touch, that might be going to
fall are Or do we end it with a hug?
Or should he kiss her cheek? Before all of these
little ways, how much were they allowed to literally touch
one another, look at each other's eyes, swoon at each other?
I mean we would we would spend hours debating and
shooting alternates of these Jim Pam scenes and ours is
(05:19):
not an exaggeration. But what's amazing is this wasn't like
mystical producers in another land talking about it. This was
you and John who are in there in question? No, No,
not at all. No. I mean, I think it speaks
to the two of you as artists, but I think
(05:41):
that there's also the camera as a character. And what
I recall is you and John, specifically with greg Or
Ken or one of the other directors, you know, sort
of two major questions, who is seeing this moment? Is
the camera seeing this moment? And how does that change
my behavior in this moment? And those were the things
(06:03):
that I feel like well brought production to a screeching hold.
This was one of the most fun elements of working
on our show was this camera as a character, because
this idea that when you know the camera is filming you,
it affects your behavior. It certainly affects Michael's behavior. When
he knows the camera is on him, he performs for
(06:24):
the camera. He does things like makes giant declarations and
pledges of money to Oscar's nephews Walkathon in front of
the camera. But then when he doesn't know that the
camera is shooting through the blinds, he tries to talk
his way out of it. So that is so fun
to play. And similarly with Jim and Pam, how do
(06:44):
Jim and Pam behave when they know they're being watched
and observed, and then how do they behave with one
another when they can't see the camera when the camera
is deep in the kitchen shooting through the blinds. I
absolutely loved those nuances. Those were some of the most
fun things to play with on our show. Yes, well,
and when I directed, and I'm not just saying well
(07:06):
what I directed to get in the fact that I directed,
But there was a moment later on season eight, Kathy
Lindsay broad like Kathy and Jim goes away to Florida,
and Cathy's clearly trying to get the moves on him.
It's taking place in Jim's bedroom and we had to shoot.
The only way to shoot the room was through the windows,
(07:26):
because if the cameras were in the room, we would
not have gotten the interaction between Kathy and Jim that
we ultimately wanted. But then there was a phone call
with Pam. You with Pam that happened there and I
remember sitting in You weren't Invalencia, You were probably home.
Did I not come because I have a very vivid
(07:48):
memory of being there when Jim was a smug bedbug?
Was that your episode smug Bedbugs? I have a memory
of watching Rain and John crack up as John was
a smug bedbug. I think that you came for the
phone call. But we had a huge conversation about you
(08:11):
were involved in what the interaction was between Kathy and Jim,
because John wanted you involved and you wanted to be involved,
and how that interaction, what that meant for your relationship
with Jim. Anyway, I think it just speaks to everybody
wanting to get it right. Yeah, we cared on this
(08:34):
show very deeply. Everybody cared very very much, And I
think that started with Greg. Greg's heart was in this show,
and you could tell, and he delighted. He delighted in
getting it right, and and we would shoot something and
we would all look over at the monitors at Greg
(08:54):
and see if he was doing his little handclap with
his little smile, and he puts his eyes up in
the air, you know, because that's when we knew we
nailed it. And he was such a great barometer for that.
When did you When did you start realizing or noticing
that Jim and Pam's relationship was becoming so important to
(09:17):
people outside and was it infringing on your real life? Well,
realizing that my friend John and I couldn't go anywhere
in public together as friends or else people would lose
their minds. They didn't know how to deal with that.
They didn't know how. And even today people don't know
(09:41):
how John and I are not a couple in real life.
They don't understand it. And I don't know how to
explain it because it's a little bit like telling kids
there's no Santa. It's like I don't want to break
anyone's heart. So it's hard. It's it's really hard. You
should just explain that he's a real pain in the
as in real life. Why would you not just say that?
(10:03):
But that's weird. I have to. I feel like I
have to justify why John and I, which are actually
in love, And the bottom line is we were playing characters.
But I know that if people think of us as
John and Jenna, then it's destroying some of the magic
of Jim and Pam. But I'm not Pam in real
life and he's not Jim in real life, and in
(10:26):
real life we're mismatched. He is perfectly matched with Emily
and I'm perfectly matched with Lee. And you know us
all both, And in fact, I feel like if anyone
wants to marry anyone, they want to marry Emily or Lee,
they don't want to actually marry me or John. Is
(10:47):
that a good description of why John and I are
not imagined real life because you know us both. Yes,
I think that that's a great description. I also think, yeah,
you both were playing characters, and I think that you um,
and you've expressed today how different you are from Pam
and John is different from Jim. People perceive you to
(11:08):
be that even you know, if someone has a couple
of minute interaction with me, they're they're not going to
mistake me for Kevin. And I think that's so true
of like Angela as well. Angela is like a bubbly cheerleader.
She's your best friend in two minutes. She's so not
the bitchy Angela Martin that she plays on the show
(11:29):
most of the time. Oh come on, but but I
do see how John and I the Lion is a
little more blurred, Like you can have an interaction with
John and I and think maybe that we really are
just like Pam or just like Yim. Yes, yeah, um, okay.
Do you have a favorite moment or moments between the
two of you that you've got to play together? Yes.
(11:50):
One of my first favorite moments is when we are
up on the roof eating the grilled cheese sandwiches and
you and Rain are doing at the fireworks out in
the lawn. And that was super special because we had
this skeleton crew. Everyone had gone home for the day
and up until this point we had mostly only ever
(12:13):
been shooting in a big group in the office with
lots of people, and here it was just me and
John on some lawn chairs. It was a summer evening,
like a warm breeze, candlelight. Greg is up on the roof,
just a couple of crew members were up on the roof,
and it was like so peaceful up there, the five
(12:36):
of us and then watching you and Rain, who I
believe we had no way of communicating with, yeah, just
setting off fireworks. It just all felt really real and lovely.
So that moment is one of my favorite moments. And
what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna edit out you're
talking about Greg and the other two crew members up there,
(12:58):
because then you're describing city there with John. That's why
people think it's a warm summer breeze and we were
sitting in lawn chairs on the roof. But some of
it like it's true. It's like, you know, Matt Son
is up on the roof and Greg is there, and
we're all just none of us can believe we're on
the roof. And we had to take this. They had
(13:19):
this old rickety rusted ladder that was on the side
of the roof that everybody else climbed up, but since
John and I were cast members, we weren't allowed, so
they like fork lifted us up there on this wearing
a weird harness. It was very funny. Um, were you
worried when Pam and Jim got married that was gonna
(13:39):
screw things up? I wasn't because we had been together
now for a couple of seasons. So I think the
question was can they get together and be a stable
couple and will we still care? And and I remember
having a conversation with Greg where Greg was like, well,
(13:59):
you know what's going to lose people is if we
just keep manufacturing these affairs and these you know, weird
ways that we keep them apart. That's exhausting and it's
not realistic. And so what we're going to need to
do is bring them together and then give them obstacles
to overcome as a couple. So, rather than obstacles that
(14:23):
keep them from being a couple, give them obstacles to
break through as a couple, like Pam wanting to go
to art school or Jim wanting to start his own business,
or having their first kid or whatever these things were
that they were going to have to weather the storm together,
that that would be more interesting and more realistic, and
people loved it. I think that's so smart, so smart
(14:46):
because but he said, you know what's not going to
be satisfying is if they get together at the end
of season nine after multiple affairs, and like everyone's gonna
be like, Yay, I guess you know. Congrats. I hope
you enjoy your marriage with all your horrible baggage. Look
(15:07):
totally right. That's not a happy ending. I've never heard
that is so smart. Yeah, okay, so I talked again
(15:34):
about sort of that emotional core. Dwight. Talk to me
a little bit about the relationship between the two of
you and how that changed and evolved. I mean, you
were with Jim adversaries and made you crazy forever, and
then ultimately by the end, he says that you're his
best friend. Dwight, doesw does you know? I think it's
(15:59):
that first episode the Injury, when Pam has that line,
Dwight is kind of my friend. But I think there's
other things. You know, Jim and Pam spends so much
time teasing Dwight, and I think even go too far.
A few times in my rewatching of the show, I
think there's a few times when we're like, actually a
(16:20):
little cruel to him that makes me cringe and I
feel like, oh, that wasn't our best moment, but I
appreciate because we allow our characters too. We don't all
every day have perfect moments, right. But it's so hard
for me to think about Pam's relationship with Dwight without
thinking about my relationship to Rain. Rain is a deeply
(16:44):
soulful person. He's also like a curmudgeon ly old man.
He's really cranky sometimes, and on set he would be hilarious.
Do you remember the time do you remember the time
he declared, Oh my god, it was so funny. We
were getting ready to shoot and he said, hold on, wait,
just hold on, everybody, hold on for a second. I
(17:05):
have an announcement. Everyone on Monday's you do not need
to ask me how my weekend was anymore? All right,
every single person asked me how my weekend was. Just
assume it was fine. We were like, where is this
coming from? Right? And I talked to him about this,
(17:25):
and he goes, Jenna, that is not true. I said
that on a Tuesday. I said, only asked me how
my weekend was on Mondays. No more of this bleeding
into Tuesday Mondays. And he went crazy because you and
I know what he was talking about. Because it's five
o'clock in the morning, and every single person that you
passed is like, hello, good morning. How was your weekend?
(17:46):
And he what he was saying was like, you don't
have to talk to me. We just saw each other
on Friday night. We're good, We're good. Yes, it's so true.
So he would be like that guy on this set.
It was like so funny. But then at the same time,
in moments of deep crisis, I have phoned him. I
(18:07):
had a job offer that was going to take me
out of town and would uproot my family for a
period of time that I really wrestled with the decision.
I called him and he counseled me. He is he
has that in him, a type of counselor, and I
value him so deeply in my life. But then like
(18:29):
like he'll call me up and he'll be like, do
you want to go to lunch? And I'm like, yeah,
I mean because you sound like you want to go
so bad, Like is it a chore or do you
want to go? Just like no, I want to lunch
with you, Like all right, let's go to lunch. And
then you go to lunch and I was just sort
of like, are you liking our lunch. Are we having
a good lunch? How are you tell me about you?
(18:49):
And all this so funny, but then like if I
were to do you know what I mean? So it's
like very much like the Pammed White where Pam will
like be like, oh, I love Dwight. I'm gonna go
say something nice to him, and then he'll just be like, Pam,
something about knives, something about snakes or bears, and she's like, yeah, okay, right, okay,
(19:13):
But so I guess, um, I feel deeply loved by Rain,
and I think Pam fell deeply loved by Dwight as well,
Like they had a real bond, they really cared for
one another eventually eventually yeah. Um. Well, and it's similar
to your relationship with Michael, right, I mean from where
that relationship started and him fake firing you to him
(19:38):
leaving and you you having sort of that final moment
with him, Um, what did he say to you? Well,
it wasn't so much what he said to me. Um.
Paul Fie directed that episode Goodbye Michael, and Uh we
were at the airport and Paul Fiq said, Jenna, I
(19:58):
want you to just run up and just say goodbye.
To Steve. Your friend, Steve, this is your last scene
with him, so say goodbye. We're not going to use
the sound. We're just going to have a spy shot
on you. So I thought, okay. So I ran up
to Steve and I just told him all the ways
I was going to miss him and how grateful I
(20:20):
was for his friendship and the privilege of working with him.
And I'm sobbing, and he's sobbing, and we're hugging and
and I didn't want to let him go, and I
didn't want the scene to end. And then finally paulfy
you know, says cut and he was like, Jenna, that
was that was brilliant. Can you do it again? But
just a little faster because it had been like five minutes.
(20:45):
He was like, we just need to tighten it up
a little because they wanted him to actually work ahead
and they had one camera. There was only one shot
that they couldn't edit. Is so great. I was like,
just tighten it up a little, but sweetie, great job.
(21:07):
I guess he could tell. I was like sobbing. Yeah.
In thinking back, honestly, when he Steve leaving to me
was almost more emotional than the show ending. Well, the
thing is is that it wasn't just the character of
Michael that we were losing. We were losing the captain
(21:28):
of our ship, Steve Carrell. And I don't think that
I can say enough how important him as our leader was,
because just the kind of man he is, his work, ethic,
his kindness, his generosity, there was no ego, and to
(21:48):
be led with that, along with Greg's heart, it was
very frightening to me that we were losing him. He
was our compass that pointed us north and us all
in line, and I really worried what's it gonna be
like on set without him. We just all agreed he
was the most important person on set, and we always
(22:11):
wanted the day to be easy for him. He had
the most lines, he had the most work, he had
to drive the show, and we all just collectively were
there to support him. And he was so generous. I
mean I remember, I remember directors would come in who
were new and they wouldn't be able to find Steve,
(22:32):
but he'd just be sitting on the couch. By reception,
We'll be like, oh, he's right there. Because he was
so he wasn't like and I'm here, kind of guy.
You know, he was just and I and I say
this because after working on the Office, I've worked on
many projects where this is not the case, and I
see how that infects a group of people when there
(22:55):
is someone who is leading the ship, who is insecure
and needs a constant an ego boost, And it makes
me even more grateful for how Steve was and how
he is still. I also remember Will Ferrell coming in
and guesting with us, and then I've done movies with
Will Ferrell and he's the same way. And I always thought, wow,
(23:16):
they really have a competition for like greatest person to
work for work with Steve and Will just like nicest
man in Hollywood. But um so, my biggest fear was
even just what is the onset vibe going to be
like without Steve? Not to mention what stories are we
going to tell? Who are we without this leader? And
(23:40):
I'll say it here and this is the only time
I've ever really publicly said this, but it's always disappointed
me that we didn't trust in our core office group
enough to continue the show without bringing in what I
think we thought we needed, which were these big guest
(24:00):
actors to fill steve shoes. And I always felt like
fear drove some decisions two that I does that make sense?
It does make sense. Yeah, I always wondered just what
would that season have been like, like what we then
(24:23):
got with season nine, where we said, no, we're enough,
the bench is deep enough, the talent is there. We
can keep the ship afloat with what we have. Right.
I don't know how you feel about that season eight. No,
I hear what you're saying. I think that there was
fear and what would happen if we didn't have someone
(24:43):
else helming? Because being the boss changes the character. Yeah,
so Dwight as the boss is not Dwight, that's right.
Dwight is the character who wants to be the boss,
who's always angling to be the boss, but who had
does not actually have the authority. So if you make
him the boss, then who is that guy? So it
(25:04):
does make sense that they felt like they're needed to
be and that was the question who should be the boss?
This was the conversation you should be the boss? I
mean I remember being up in the writer's room and
people ask me who I thought should be the boss,
and I was like, guys, I don't know, I don't know.
They were still trying to get like anybody's opinion, Like,
(25:26):
does anyone have a perspective on this? Well? And I
think as a character it was Jim. I mean I
think Jim was the most I mean he was lazy,
he was the most well suited technical level should be
promoted to that job. Correct, Yes, in terms of his
interaction with people, his ability to lead and sort of
(25:46):
inspire people. But I think then that messes up storylines
in a way, that for sure. So I guess you
know when you when when we get back to this,
it is like, okay, well we need some other force
of nature to come in and be the boss of
these people so that they can stay being them. Right, Yeah,
(26:08):
I don't know that was that was tricky, but we
made it through and we got some great episodes that season,
and then we went into season nine where we sort
of just didn't have a boss for a while. Remember
Andy was our boss, but then he got lost on
the boat and then we just sort of we were like, oh,
here's an answer, it's an empty office. There's no regional
(26:29):
manager anymore. Um, what did you think about bringing the
sound man breaking the fourth while and bringing Brian onto
the show? Was there a conference. There was a major conference,
many conferences. So for season nine, John and I were producers.
We were given those titles because we were brought in
to really discuss the Jim Pam arc of the final season,
(26:52):
and so we spent a lot of time up in
the writer's room talking about all the beats of that
story and what it would be. I did many on
camera auditions with various brian's to be the boom operator,
and then many discussions about who exactly it should be.
There was this one actor who was just phenomenal, who
just looked so much like John Krasinski that we had
(27:14):
a whole discussion about whether or not he should look
too much like John Krasinski, if that would feel like Pam,
you know what I mean, and like all this stuff,
and so anyway, I liked that storyline. I thought it
was really interesting because another part of season nine was
that we were going to release the documentary that you
(27:35):
were going to see what how it affects these people's
lives for them to see themselves in a documentary, And
I think that's really great closure for the show as well.
Perfect I think it was an underrated ending of the show.
I felt like Greg very clearly had a story that
he wanted to tell. Yeah, And I think that when
(27:57):
you're live that you're anticipate and there's almost nothing that
can meet your expectations. But I think if you go
back and you watch it, you see just the brilliance
of how he tied it all up truly. Um, when
did you find out that Steve was coming back for
the finale? Did you know early on? I feel like
(28:19):
I almost always knew, because John and I had been
up in the writer's room talking about the finale and
we were sworn secrecy. So I feel like I knew
for a pretty long time, and I knew that there
was a lot of trickery going on that he was
not written into the final script. At the final table read,
(28:44):
there was a scene between Dwight and Steve, but it
was written between White and Creed, and Creed read the
lines at the final table read. And that was because
they did not want anyone at the network to know
that Steve was coming back. It was huge secret. They
didn't want NBCPR to like, yeah, please it and and
(29:07):
to ruin the surprise of Steve being in the finale. UM,
what's your memory from that? Were do you more laughy
or cry like in the table reads? Oh? I think
I cried a little bit every single day. I was
a crier at the table read. I was crying. That
(29:27):
was really emotional. That last table read. Chris Workman, our
camera operator assistant, took a photo of that last table
read that Angela has blown up in her house on
her wall. That is fantastic of that last moment right
after we said the last line. And then I remember
(29:47):
that Pam has the last line of the show, and
they had originally scheduled it so that that would be
the very last thing we shoot. And I think it
was John or some other people said, oh, man, well,
we don't all want to be wrapped. And then Jenna
has this talking head and and Greg said something like,
(30:10):
oh yeah, yeah, we got to have the last scene
be with everybody. And after I finished my talking head,
we shot the b roll of me taking the picture
off the wall and all of us walking out the door.
And we did it, I don't know how many times,
five or six, but we would take the thing off
the wall and all walk out and then we would
(30:32):
all stand off camera by the elevator, all of us,
many of us crammed by this elevator, and there would
be this moment where we would wait to see if
they were going to say cut going again or cut
that's a wrap. And I'm getting choked up just thinking
about that because those seconds of waiting and every time
(30:54):
I just wanted them to say cut going again, because
I knew when they said that's a wrap, that that
was a wrap up. That was it. I'd never shoot
the office again. And when they said that's a wrap,
I just burst into tears and started hugging the closest
people that I could find. And and it was it
was really, it was just really really crazy and emotional. Yeah,
(31:17):
will you play that. I thought it was weird when
you picked us to make a documentary, But all in all,
I think an ordinary paper company like dunder Mifflin was
a great subject for a documentary. There's a lot of
beauty and ordinary things, Isn't that kind of the point
(31:49):
to me? That's that's what Gregg thinks it was about
that there's a lot of beauty and ordinary things. What
do you think it was about, Oh, Greg Daniels, I
think that's what it was about. Yeah, I do. I also, um,
I always thought selfishly because it was my job to
(32:11):
view the show through my character. It's not lost on
me that when Pam was ready to break free of
dunder Mifflin, the show ended. So I always kind of
thought it was the journey of a girl becoming a woman,
finding herself going out into the world. When we meet her,
she's trapped behind this desk, and she sort of slowly
(32:31):
moves to sales and then finds the man she loves
and starts this family. And then when she's really ready,
she really fights against leaving. And then when she's ready
to go, it's all over because the documentary doesn't stop
when Michael leaves, so it's not really a documentary about
Michael Scott. You know, they decided to stop making the
(32:56):
documentary when Pam leaves. That's so interesting. Do you think
(33:19):
The Office could be made today? No, I don't think
it could. Well, I don't know if it could be
made today. It's a good question. Well, first of all,
something I want to point out our question I want
to ask you is people always ask us if we're
all really friends in real life, and I don't even
think saying that we're friends in real life accurately communicates
(33:42):
how deeply I feel for you and everybody. It's a
like a love of family, Like I can't explain it.
Do you think if we've made this show in the
age of smartphones and whatnot, that we would be as
deeply connected? Like? Don't you think? Inc like the circumstances
(34:02):
of us being trapped on that set for the first
season with no working computers, no phones, no internet, nothing,
just a troop of actors and artists trapped in a
room for twelve hours a day playing. We never absorbed
ourselves and our phones or emails or other work or anything.
(34:24):
And I think that that lent itself to part of
the magic. And I just wonder if if you try
to put us all in a room today, I don't know,
when we just have our phones and our desks. I
think that maybe I don't know, Maybe I think that
we for sure. What I think is we were a
(34:45):
collective group of people with differing backgrounds and experiences and training.
It was like we were an old time theater troupe,
yes stuck together. And we weren't all famous. No, we
came from a place of just wanting to do good work. Well.
When Lee and I got married, I had invited a
(35:08):
girlfriend of mine that I'd gone to high school with
from St. Louis, and she was so excited to come
to the wedding and she said, if they're going to
be famous people there, you know? And I said, no,
not really, We're not really friends with a lot of
famous people, you know. And then she's like, well, are
the cast members from the office going to be there?
I'm like, oh, yeah, yeah, there'll be there, and she
was like, well they're famous, and I'm like, oh, yeah,
that's right. I forgot. But even now today, I don't
(35:34):
think of us that way. I still always think of
us as the people in the room before anyone cared
or anyone knew who we were, and so being on
that journey together as well, I think really bonded us.
But I don't know if we could make the show today.
It's it's really hard to say. It was such a
(35:55):
moment in time. Can you make a show today with
total unknown? I don't know, Silicon Valley kind of there's
other shows. Well, let me ask why do you think
the show is more popular now than it was when
we was on. My answer is very simple. The show
(36:15):
is excellent. It's excellent. It is absolutely brilliantly executed, and
it holds up because it's just that good. Really, But
you know it's funny. I started this podcast with Angela
where we watch an episode of the Office. We started
from the beginning. We break it down. This was not
(36:39):
my this is not a plug moment. We were about
to go there in a minute, but anyway, go ahead. Now.
What I was going to say is Angela and I
are doing this podcast and we have to watch an
episode of the Office and then we discuss it. So
I've been watching the show from the very beginning. Had
you watched the show since they aired, you had not.
I had seen a few here and there. I had
(37:01):
seen the dinner party I had. I had been in
a trailer on a job and I had a teeny
tiny television mounted to the wall of my trailer. Was
so small. She'm not joking right now. She just held
up her fingers and showed three inches. I don't think
the now, it's more like five inches. It was smaller
(37:21):
than a laptop screen. It was very tiny, and it's
so I was so that's what she said. I was
so tickled by it that I took a picture and
I sent it to Steve and John and Ed and
Angela and all of us who had been in that
scene where we were laughing so hard at Michael's tiny
(37:42):
flat screen TV. And then that made me want to
watch that episode. So then I went and watched the
dinner Party episode, and then a few examples of things
like that where you're flipping through and you an episode
comes on or something like that. But no, I have
not seen most of these episodes since they aired, so
it's been really cool for me. And I have to say,
(38:06):
I really get why people are so excited about the show. Like,
as I watch it again, I'm really watching it almost
as a fan, and it's weird that I'm on it
in some ways. When I'm watching myself, I've always thought
it was real. I is that a fact? I don't know.
(38:29):
But before I started doing that, I was on Greg
to do a reunion special or revived the office in
some way, selfishly because I just want to work with
all you all again, and because I know Steve has
a really good idea, and I thought, let's get Steve's
idea going. Come on, Greg, come on, Greg, you gotta
do it. Well, now that I've been rewatching the show,
(38:55):
I wrote Greg and email recently and I said, Greg, Um,
I don't think you should reopen the show. It's it
is so perfect just as it is. Like, I don't
think we should now. I was such a champion for
doing it for so long, and now I'm realizing maybe
it's exactly perfect just as it is, and you don't
(39:17):
want to have this weird extra seven years later episode
that we made. Um, I don't know. Well, he do have.
Here's the beauty is I have the ability to edit
out whatever I say right now. I have no interest
in it in doing it in a reunion episode. But
(39:41):
have you heard Steve's idea. It's a great idea. It
has a good idea. But if we did it in Scranton, Brian,
what if that's the thing that we come back for,
is we shoot an episode finally in Scranton. Steve's idea?
All right, Well, I'm tempting you. But at the same time,
(40:02):
I think the show is just perfect as it is.
Although we do have an unproduced episode pet Day. There's
one episode of the office called pet Day. Well it
wasn't shot that we never shot. That's right, I have
the script. I have let you do. In fact, I
signed scripts, obviously to give away to charity. I have
a gigantic box of scripts that because we would get
(40:26):
multiple per week. It was not great for the environment,
but we would get more, and they're in my garage
and boxes. And I reached in and grabbed one and
it was pet Day pet Day? And I thought, what
if I had signed that? And I mean, thank goodness,
I looked at what the title was, because that could
have been true. I could have gotten in trouble for that. Well.
I said to Greg, what if we do a special
where we just do a staged reading of pet Day
(40:49):
and we all come together and we read pet Day.
Wasn't there a reason we didn't do pet Day? Animal cruelty?
I believe it was the reason we didn't do pet
Day because there's some awful bird death in it or
something I can't remember death and a porcupine in Dwight's
desk we did, and Angela throws a cat and a
(41:12):
cat and one gets frozen. And no, there's Greg must
not like animals. Um, is there anything else anything else
that you want covered that you feel like we didn't?
I mean, obviously there's so much I know, I know,
I don't know you did. You were very good. I
(41:33):
can't think of anything, really, I think something that's really
interesting to talk about two, because you talk about how
there were like the theater people and the comedians, and
then there were the improv people, but there were also
all of these ways that we were weirdly connected like that.
Phillis and I both grew up in St. Louis, as
(41:56):
did Ken kuoppas he grew up in Belleville, Illinois, which
is basically St. Louis. And then also our a d
rusty mom mood grew up in St. Louis. So there
were four of us St Louis's. Then there were a
bunch of those Boston guys. You've got John and Steve
and b J and Mike Scher. Then the fact that
(42:18):
like b J and John went to the same high
school and high school, you and Ed went to the
same high school. And Angela and Oscar were in an
improv group together, and she walked on set and was like,
oh my god, Oscar, you got cast in this. It
was a complete shock to her. She'd done improv with Kate.
(42:38):
So there were these ways where we'd all been kind
of circling each other in this weird way, and then
all finally came together. There were so many coincidences in
how we were connected to Yes. I remember shooting a
scene for webisodes and was in the annex camera on me.
(43:00):
I was shooting a talking head and suddenly I saw
Ed Helms walking behind the I was like, Ed, what
what are you? And he was there to meet with
Greg and about joining the show. This is between season
two and three. Yeah, it's crazy. Um, thank you so much.
I love you, Brian. I appreciate you coming. I hope
(43:24):
this has been some fun. I could talk for hours
about our show. I love that you're doing this because
I want to hear what everybody says. Yeah, well there
you go. I love you, I love you. Thank you.
(43:48):
That is a rap on Jenna Fisher here at the
office deep dive Jenna, thank you so much for sharing
your time with us. I mean, look, I didn't want
to say this to your face, but I think that
we all know Kevin was the real emotional core of
the office. I mean, you can keep thinking Pam, but
(44:11):
I say it's keV Dog. But you were so great here.
I'm gonna let you have it. I'll even forgive the
fact that you're a Cardinals fan. Go Dodgers listeners. Thank
you so much for joining us, even all your Cardinals fans,
and get ready because next week. Oh it's the big one, folks,
It's the Big ConA, the big Cheese, the big guy upstairs,
(44:34):
Steve Correl. Have a great week. The Office. Deep Dive
is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside
our executive producer, Langlee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
(44:56):
our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant edit
is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by Seth Olandsky
Host
Brian Baumgartner
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