June 15, 2021 • 44 mins
What do pantsuits, candlemaking, and Sandals, Jamaica have in common? The one and only, Jan Levinson (Gould), of course. Actress Melora Hardin joins Brian to talk about her time on the Office, from portraying Jan’s struggle with femininity to keeping a straight face while throwing Dundies during the Dinner Party episode.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi everybody. I'm l Laura Harden and I played Jan
Levinson on the Office. Well, welcome back everyone, Thank you
so much for joining me again here on the Office
(00:22):
Deep Dive. I am your host, as always, Brian Baumgartner
on the podcast today, as you just heard, we have
the insanely talented Laura Harden. Me. Laura is an incredible
actor and probably more than anyone else in the cast.
(00:42):
Acting and show biz was in her blood. Both of
her parents worked as actors, and she herself started out
as a child actor. She starred, She didn't just appear.
She starred in a TV show called Thunder when she
was ten years old. So by the time we filmed
(01:03):
the pilot, me Laura was definitely the most established performer
on set. And now me Laura played a kind of
unique role in the ensemble, right, I mean, she was
the big wig boss who rolls in from New York
every once in a while. She's not there in every episode,
but she brought so much to the show in that role,
(01:26):
especially in terms of her dynamic with Steve Carrell, which
was so hilarious and well obviously something we discussed at
length during this conversation. Unfortunately, because of COVID. I couldn't
sit down with me Laura in the studio, but even
just talking to her by phone was an absolute treat
(01:48):
for me, and so therefore now a treat for you.
So here she is, Laura Harden. Bubble and squeak. I
love it. Bubble and squeak, Bubble and squeaker, cookie, every
(02:10):
moment left over from the nut before. You know, I've
tried to As I told you before, I tried to
do all these in person. I did Ricky and Stephen uh,
(02:30):
Stephen Merchant and Ricky Gervais the other day. You sound
so much better than they do. I don't know what's
wrong with that, just because better than they are. Well, yes,
obviously I'm gonna actually i'll send you later a picture.
I am in a room totally by myself. I'm standing
(02:50):
so that I don't catch coronavirus in this thing. I'm
about three feet staring directly into a wall. It's very concerting,
but you know, um, all right, Laura, thank you so much,
um for coming to talk to me here. Well, you
didn't really go anywhere, You didn't really go anywhere, but
(03:11):
so I want to talk a little bit about you
before the Office. You started as a child actor, right, Yeah.
I started acting professionally when I was six years old.
So I was doing tons of you know, guest starring
roles I had done. I think The Office was like
my eleventh pilot that I had done. I had done
many short lived series. I've done some movies and yeah
(03:32):
that's and I've done a little feater too. So I
had heard fourteen. But but you just said so the
The Office was the eleventh pilot that you had shot.
What happened to the ten before? It could have been?
It could have been the fourteenth. I don't know, you know,
to be honest, I've done so many. I mean a
lot of them were like short lives some of some
(03:53):
of them were just pilots and then they would get canceled. Um.
Some of them were short lived series. I was on
quite a few series that lived for you know, six episodes,
ten episodes. Uh, well, I did. I did some shows
when I was a really kid, Like I did a
Shaturday morning show for kids when I was ten about
a black stallion that came when I whistled, and together
(04:14):
we would save the day, and and that one ran
for a series that was like twenty two episodes, and
then and then I did another one called Cliffwood Avenue Kids,
which was a syndicated show at the time when shows
were syndicated, and I was nine when I did that,
and that one, I think was like twenty five episodes.
But other than that, most of the shows I did
(04:34):
were like six episodes, you know, five episodes, or just
pilots that then were that were never picked up. When
did you first hear about the American version of the Office?
Had you seen the British version. I had never seen
the British version. I'm not a big TV watcher in general. Um,
and I I remember it was I remember it weird,
(04:57):
And it's weird that I do remember it, because I don't,
you know, the we was so many auditions at that
time in my life that it's weird that I remember it.
But I remember going over there, and I remember it
was sort of a last minute thing. You know. Usually
actors are, you know, supposed to be told the night
before so that they have at least a night with
the material. But it was sort of one of those
things where I think my agent called and said, oh,
(05:19):
you know, we have this thing for you. They want
you there at like a two o'clock today. It was
like an afternoon thing. I had already been on a
couple other auditions or something. I remember walking in, picking
up the material, standing outside and working on it um
and basically going in pretty cold and just doing it
but liking it like right away. And what was funny
(05:39):
was that Allison are our casting director. She had been
I get Shell was also casting a pilot at the
time that I had been in on the day before,
and probably this is how this last minute audition happened,
was probably through Allison, because I had been in for
that and they were making a deal for me to
(05:59):
come in to do a test for this other pilot.
And so I went in. I read hold for the
office pretty much pretty cold. But I also could, you know,
just because I've been doing this as long as I
as I have, you can really feel when the room
is like buzzing with what you're doing, Like everybody was
kind of riveted. It was ten Koppie and it was
(06:20):
you know, Greg Daniels and um, I'm pretty sure Phillis
was maybe there, but anyway, Allison for sure. And so yeah,
I did it, and I remember everybody just kind of
being I could tell they were just kind of like, hump,
they were they were really liking, you know, liking what
I did. And anyway, so the next I think it
(06:40):
was like a couple of days later or the next
day even, I went into test for this pilot and
Allison came out you know where I was the waiting
room and it was just me and she came out
and she said hi, and I said hi, and she goes,
you were fantastic in you know, in that audition for
the Office. Now, remember the Office was a guest star
possible reach character. That's not like just for people that
(07:03):
don't know. That's a nice thing to get, but that's
not like getting a series, like a starring role on
a pilot that could turn into a series, because that's
more money and that's you know, better for us as actors. Anyway,
so I was, like I said to Alison, I was like, yeah,
I said that was fun. I said, well, you don't
I really liked it, Like maybe I'll get both, and
she goes, uh, I really want you to get that one.
(07:23):
I really want you to get the Office. And I
thought to myself, hump, Okay, you know that's interesting. You know,
she's a she's a she's a pro. She's been around
a long time, and she knows something, you know, she
knows like she could tell that. I think that the
office was special, and so I basically just went in.
I read for the other thing. I didn't end up
(07:44):
getting it. The pilot did get made, it did not
get picked up, and I ended up getting the office,
and here we are. That's that is crazy. And when
you were originally cast, you didn't think it was a
big thing like it was. Maybe it was going to
come back. Maybe, I mean, maybe the role would come back,
but but you had no expectation for anything long term.
(08:07):
I didn't. I mean, you know, as I said, I've
been doing it so long that you just you get
to where you kind of have a pretty fixed skin
and you're pretty wary about things. And I mean I
always tell everybody that I didn't even believe we were
a hit. Um, even after we'd won the Emmy. I
didn't believe we were a hit until we won the
sag Award. And I had to walk around with that
(08:28):
like fifty pound, you know, statue all night and the
next morning I woke up and my bicep was so
sore that I couldn't lift my arm. It was like,
literally I needed physical proof. And then I was like, oh,
maybe we are a hit. And it was I just
think it's like hit me a lot later than anybody
else in the cast, because I just was I had
done so many things that were like semi successes or
(08:53):
you know, I just didn't believe it, like I just
didn't believe it right well. And and you know, you were,
you know, you were the most experienced film and television
actor certainly in the pilot. And so when you showed up,
did you have any sort of first impression of the
other people in the cast. I remember thinking that it
(09:16):
was just really well cast. I remember just feeling like,
oh my god, these are just great characters, you know,
and I and I loved immediately. I loved working with Steve.
I mean, I would say, because of my experience, you
can really get a sense very very quickly of the
actors that can that can play with you, and the
(09:36):
actors that can't. And um, because all my stuff was
with Steve in that first season, I really didn't work
with you guys at all. Really, I mean I had
no interaction with you, really decides just glancing at you
and you're glancing at me. But but it was like
it was like I was so relieved and so grateful
and excited that whenever the cameras would roll, I felt
(10:00):
Steve was very playful with me on camera as far
as just his ability to you know, give and take
and just kind of be really in the moment and
not get thrown by any little new thing I might
throw his way, Whereas sometimes you work with more inexperienced
actors and you'll do it one way and they'll go, oh,
(10:21):
you didn't do it like that, or they'll be like, oh,
I wasn't expecting that because the last time you did
it more like this, you know, And that always just
kisses me off so much, because I'm always like, oh
my god, like, really, are you kidding me? We can't
do it like, we can't do it different and have
fun and all and try a new thing, you know.
But Steve was always just like, you know, just so
ready with the bat, you know, to hit the ball
(10:43):
however it came, and I think we both had a
lot of fun with that. I mean, I would hope
he would say that he did. I certainly had a
great time working with him, right, I mean, It's funny
because I just started thinking about how so much, yes,
as you said, especially early on, but really throughout the show,
how connected you were with Steve, and how so much
(11:04):
almost unlike most of the rest of the show, you
guys played one on one quite a bit, so most
of your experience wasn't really with the entire ensemble, again,
particularly early on, but really with Steve. Yeah, yeah, I
really was, And that was very interesting. Yeah, that was
very interesting, I felt, you know, and I felt that
I think even as time went on, there was sort
(11:26):
of a sense of not belonging there for a long
long time. Really, I don't think I ever felt like
I belonged really, but I think that's probably by virtue
of the of the way that it was written. But
I that's not to say that I didn't enjoy everybody
and love everybody and feel like everybody you know, enjoyed me.
I did. I don't know. I just felt like the
(11:47):
little like the team, the clan, like you guys were
in the office every day together, um, you know, and
I wasn't. I would pop in and out, and when
I did, it was always it was mostly that kind
of more private things, which was maybe by design because
Yan is kind of an outsider, right. I Mean the
other thing that that occurred to me is, you know,
we've done a lot of conversation about you know, the
(12:10):
cast of this show and how different it was at
this time and place specifically that our show started, you know,
to break the mold, and they really sort of leaned
into these are real, ordinary people who are working in
an office specifically in Scranton, Pennsylvania. And it felt like
to me that you, you and your character though like
(12:32):
maybe it was you being like a New York person,
right like you always seemed and looked felt a little
more put together, a little more you know, which really
contrasted in a way with with everyone else who was
who was in the office, right right, Yeah, I think
that's true. And I and I remember that that was
even somewhat of a of a of a struggle with Greg.
(12:56):
I remember Greg Daniels Um talking a little bit about that,
even with me and and and with the costume designer
and um, with the makeup and hair people. You know,
he used to say a lot, you know, like make
sure she's not too pretty, make sure she's not you know,
like don't dress her too holid you know, take you know,
(13:17):
take the makeup down a little or or he sort
of and he grappled with, you know, why would why
would Michael be with someone that looked like and felt
like jan Like, how would he get someone like her?
And that was like, that was I just think a
thing on his radar all the time, because he really
wanted it to feel you know, really real and really
(13:40):
documentary and really like we were really peeking in on
this um these people's lives. And I think I think
that was just always a thing for him, and he
was always tracking that, and he would talk to me
about that, and you always wanted to know what I
thought about that? Why would she be attracted to someone
like that? And and I had lots of reasons, you know,
I I it for me, it was the need to
(14:00):
figure that out. But but that's my job, you know,
that's part of my job as an actor and certainly
as a working actor for as long as I was.
You have to find a way to win your mind,
justify kind of anything that that's thrown at you. So
I had gotten very good at at knowing how to
how to make something that seems almost unfathomable, you know, real,
(14:42):
what do you think Jan did see and Michael. I
feel like Jan was um. You know, she was really
brought up in a Mann's world. I think she became
more masculine in her affects and her behavior than she
actually was inside and I out like, you know, some
part of her was really sort of sad about the
(15:04):
loss of her femininity. And I feel like that that
Michael's kind of puppy like adoration of her um made
her feel more feminine and more womanly and more more
like she could just be, you know, softened softer with him.
And I think she wasn't. I don't think she was
(15:26):
softer with him on the outside. I just think inside
his sort of like he just wouldn't stop coming after her,
even when she was a total, you know, bitch to him.
I think that I think that just made her feel
loved and like she could let down a little bit
(15:48):
of that masculine guard that she had learned, you know,
that learned behavior. Right. Do you think that there was
real love there between Michael and Jan, Yeah, I do.
I think it was completely dysfunctional, but I do, Yeah,
I do. I think she I think she didn't even
know that she was in love with him. I think
(16:09):
she was right. Yeah, there's um, it's interesting. We I've
been doing a lot of talking about sort of michael
search for family and his need and desire to be
loved and you know, for him, his landing the boss,
right Jan, the sophisticate from New York, right like that
(16:33):
for him is a huge win. And I think, you know,
raises himself up in his own mind. Um, but I
think it was really well said, like that she was searching,
you know, she was she was coming from a specific
culture and maybe wanting something different for herself. Yeah. I
mean I think she just was really focused on climbing
(16:53):
that corporate ladder and forgot about her her need for
you know, companionship. And I think he was all wrong
in every way and there was something that was like
und undeniably attractive about that for her. I think she
just needed a little bit of shaking up and sort
of that that adoration that he had of her, Like
(17:14):
just he just was so proud of of having sex
with her, He was so proud of having a relationship
with her, and she was just like, you are so stupid.
But but I like that he kind of liked being
his trophy, even though you know she found him ridiculous.
I think do you think do you think that she
(17:36):
had gotten to a point where she was lowering her standards? Yeah,
I don't think she had standards. I think she would have.
I just don't literally, I literally don't think she was thinking.
I think she forgot about her love life. I think
she probably you know, had had sort of sex, very
disconnected sex with like, you know, different executives that she'd
(17:56):
worked with. But I don't feel like she really had
a real relationship with anybody that was really meaningful until Michael.
And I think that my instinct is that, like, her
relationship with her father was probably pretty um like disconnected.
I mean, I think that Greg would say that that
(18:17):
she had lowered her standards. I don't think it was
really about standards. I think she just was taken with
his um you know, Let's say Steve's you know, description
of that would be that it was more like an
ego phil. I don't know. I don't know what Steve
would say as far as if that was Michael's ego
phill to be with Jan or if he really was
crazy for her. But I think the way that Jan
(18:39):
read it was like Jesus I can like keep you know,
beating this dead horse and it keeps fun like it
makes her feel loved, it makes her feel worthy. It's
just a weird phenomenon, right. I think Jan definitely, you know,
liked it that she could curl up in his arms
and you know, on the on the bench on the
bottom of the bed where she put him. She could
(19:01):
cry and she could be like, I'm sorry, and he
probably could be like, oh it was it was nothing.
I don't even know what you're saying sorry for, you
know what I mean. What do you think that their relationship,
What do you think that it added or gave to
the to the show overall? Well, I think it gave.
It gave him a kind of, um like a sexual
(19:25):
play that I don't think he would have had, uh
necessarily without it. And you know, it was really something
that Steve and and I and and Greg Daniels noticed
in the pilot. I remember being at lunch with with
all of us, the three of us were having lunch together,
and I remember Steve and I and Greg all kind
(19:46):
of saying, you know, there's some kind of an interesting
spark between Michael and Jan, like there's something about them,
and we were all like, Yeah, if we get an opportunity,
if we get picked up, we should really have them
hook up sometime at a convention or something. And we
were all laughing about this idea that maybe we'd get
to have them, you know, have some kind of an affair.
(20:07):
So I think there was just the titilation that it
added to the show in the same way that you know,
the Pam and Jim love story had a little bit
of tittilation to it, and you know, and there were
other stories that you know, Dwight and Angela, you know,
there were things that all happened over time, and I
think that created at fun sort of titulation. And and
(20:27):
also because because the Michael and Jan's story was like
there was something really right about it, but also something
so wrong. It's just it's just, you know, it's just
it's kind of delicious, right. How much input did you
have on Jan with Greg or the writers? Um? I mean,
I think I do think it was a dance. I mean,
(20:48):
Larry Wilmore early on really loved to write Jan, and
he and I became friends, were still friends. Um, So
we used to talk about Jam a lot over lunch
and stuff. Greg and I talked about Jan a lot,
especially as seasons went on. You know, Um, Greg was
always curious about what I thought about you know what,
(21:11):
I how I felt she might react to this or that. Um,
that was really nice. And I would say for me again,
you know, just referring back to how long I've been
in the business, that was my first experience where writers
were really interested and collaborative in television. Uh, And so
(21:31):
Greg really like that really changed for me just sort
of everything that came after that, you know, just the
feeling of that. And I I'm not sure I think
Greg was a big, big part of changing the way
writers really are on sets, on television sets. I really
(21:53):
do think he was kind of a maverick and a
leader in that, certainly for for my experience, which was
you know, he the at that time. I've had a
lot of experience, and I just never had writers interacting
on such an intimate way with the actors and just
being on set as much as they were being, you know,
being so involved and so hands on and really wanting
(22:15):
to hear from all of us. I loved that. Gosh,
that was just a revelation for me, right, I mean,
often on other shows, like writers are on set to
really oversee and make sure that the words are being
said right or said correctly right. But you know, I
I agree, I think here it was really about a
(22:36):
collaboration and finding the best answers that we could to,
you know, to make something funny or you know, to
make it work better than it really was collaborative. So
that was different for you. Greg was different for you. Yeah. Yeah,
and all the writers and and um, I mean Mindy
Mindy Kaley wrote that, you know, wrote that episode of
(22:57):
me singing the baby to the baby because I had
just done Lame is on on at the Hollywood Bowl
and she was so blown away that I had done
that and that you know that I had a voice
like that, and she was like, we've got to get
you singing on the show, and I got to find
a way to do it, and you know, and that
it was just kind of neat that they were wanting
to really use like what we had to give, and
(23:19):
they were, you know, finding ways to do it. I mean,
you know, and they would take things that we would
say and turn them into jokes. I mean, the whole um,
the whole breastfeeding the baby at the office thing. For
me happened, I think really because I was breastfeeding my
daughter at a brunch that we had with Gregg and
his wife and Steve and his wife that Greg's house,
(23:42):
and I think it made it made Steve in particular uncomfortable,
and I think that Greg was sort of I don't
think he was uncomfortable, but I think, you know, I
also felt really like very feminist about that, you know, like,
you know, we can carry guns in this country, but
you can't breastfeed a baby, and that's like what our
boots are for, you know, like I felt. And I
think I even said that at the brunch, and I
(24:03):
think Greg just took that and was like, oh my god,
this is amazing. We're doing this on the show. And
I think the war Hal thing also came, I think
similarly because of that, because they came over to my
house for dinner with Paul Fieg and his wife one night.
And I have a record cover that I you know,
(24:25):
I have a few CDs and that I've made, and
one of the record covers of my record called Her
is a painting that one of my closest friends who
I've known since I was twelve years old, painted for
me and it's a giant painting of me with a
whole bunch of kittens, and it's basically a kind of
inspired by a gil elve Grin pin Ups painting. And
(24:47):
we had that hanging over my couch in our old house,
and I remember when they came in, um Greg saying
something about it, and me saying, you know, what's interesting
about that is that is that I wonder sometimes if
people think that I think that that's like serious, you
know what I mean, Like if people think that, like
(25:09):
I have a painting of myself over my couch, like
I have to see myself every day at a giant painting,
you know. And I was we were joking about how,
you know, I think it's funny that that For me,
it's like a total ton of tongue in cheek thing.
But it's also reverence of my second CD and this
sort of like you know, all these very funny tongue
(25:31):
in cheek songs that are you know, that are that
I wrote. And so for me, it's like it's a
part of a celebration of something I achieved in my life.
That's part of my like passion and you know, but
it also is to me a joke like I don't.
I don't think of it as like, you know, like
the Queen's portrait. But I think he loved that so
(25:53):
much and we had such a long talk about it
that then it showed up in the dinner party and
I just remember loving it so much, like, oh my god,
this is genius. Like Greg is just so good at
spotting where there is an opportunity to just you know,
make a great joke about something. How much of Malla
do you think there isn't? Oh my god, of course,
(26:15):
I mean, isn't there. I mean, I think everybody. I
think all my characters have me and them for sure.
I mean, I'm I'm them there me. Um, I'm a
lot different than her, of course, um you know, but
I think for sure, like the sexuality piece of her is,
like you know, I I brought that for sure. I
don't think they would have necessarily known that jan was
(26:36):
that kind of I don't think they would have gotten
that she was that sexual had I not been playing her.
I just felt that about her and brought that to her.
And I think I'm way warmer than her, and I
certainly you know, way more way more conscious and she is.
I've done like you know, way over ten thous hours
of therapy. Like, I know myself a lot better than
(26:58):
jan those person um, you know, but I think certainly
there's elements of her that are me and neither are her.
That would be weird if there were. You know. One
(27:31):
of the other things I think that the show explores
is this idea of the American dream, both with you know,
with love or bettering themselves, like with Jim and Pam
or Michael um. And you know, specifically the Dinner Party episode,
which is I mean maybe maybe the best episode that
we ever did. UM to me, it it talked very
(27:53):
specifically about the financial strain that we as Americans were
really in on at the time. So it was played
for comedy, but there were there was real stuff going
on there. Yeah, totally, Yeah, And that was an interesting
time just even the making of that episode was you know,
was was right during the writers strike, so it was
(28:14):
a very weird. It was a weird time to be
making that episode. Anyway, we had to stop, we stopped
and started again, I seem to recall, Um, Yeah, and
we were very it was very, very very hot. We
were in a little condo over in the valley and
it was like, oh my god, it was just horribly,
horribly hot. It was like a hundred and three degrees
(28:37):
or something. So we had to keep turning the air
conditioning off so that we would you know, for sound.
So we were all in there, just wedding, and we
couldn't really go anywhere. We literally couldn't really get away
from anybody. So whatever issues you were having, we were
all having them together. Right. You talked a little bit
about this before, But what do you think Jan's dream was?
(29:02):
I mean, some would say she she had the American
dream at that moment, right, Like she's the CEO of
her own candle company and she's singing and she has
a man at home that's taking care of her, right, Like,
do you think that that was her dream? Um? Yes,
well I think it was sort of what she thought
her dream was. Um. But obviously, you know, it obviously
(29:25):
wasn't because she was so tortured in pursuing maybe pursuing
you know, this idea of an ideal that she thought
was going to make her happy and but she was,
but it wasn't. It wasn't making her happy because she
had more to give than that, um. And also because
she just wasn't with the right partner. I mean, ultimately,
Michael is definitely not you know, he definitely couldn't match her,
(29:50):
he couldn't need her. He's not as intelligent as she is.
He's not as worldly as she is. You know, he's
probably not as sexual as she is. Like, like, I
remember one a friend of mine telling me before I
got married that there's like four things people need to
look at with whoever they're potentially going to marry before
they marry them. Basically, it's like physical activity, like if
(30:11):
you know, one's a couch potato and one likes to
hike all the time, that's not going to work out
so well. And the other is religion or spirituality you
have to be kind of on the same page there,
and then sexually you have to be kind of have
the same you know, similar appetite, and then intellectually right,
so it's like all those things. If you look at
any of those things with jan and Michael, they're probably
(30:34):
pretty much missing every single target. That's so good well,
her like Journey, I mean, on the outside, you could
say that she had it all right. She's a super
successful businesswoman in New York City, and then she gets
(30:58):
fired for that and falls apart art and moves into
a condo with her boyfriend. Right, but then she kind
of builds herself up again and she has this candle business,
and then she has a baby, and then she eventually
becomes like a big executive again for White Pages. Like,
I don't know, there's just something about her searching, uh
(31:18):
that is just so interesting to me. Yeah, I think
it's sort of it's the wonderful it's the wonderful element
of not enough that she's constantly he's constantly trying to
fill that void of um, nothing is ever enough, you know, Um,
Michael's not enough, and then the job is not enough,
(31:40):
and then the next job is not enough, not enough.
And I think that I think I really infused her
with that. That's just the thing I understand super well.
And and I think it's a it's a it's a
fascinating and very funny thing to to sort of wrap
a character in sort of that cloak of just nothing
ever ever being satisfy factory. And I think it's also
(32:01):
just I think, to me, jan is a great example
of what a lot of women go through. I think
people identify with her because she struggles with I think
a common problem just in modern day society amongst women,
which is this this idea of not enough of what
(32:22):
that is, you know, that what what are we supposed
to be? You know, we're supposed to be able to
be moms and successful businesswomen and great sexy partners and
money earners and soft and beautiful. And it's a real thing.
And I think that Jen encapsulated that in a way
(32:43):
that no other character on the Office did. I agree,
her search the entire time was an active search for
something better. Yeah, for sure, um, other than it being
super freaking hot. But other than that, is there any
other specific memory race that you have from Dinner Party episode? Well,
first of all, I mean one of the greatest moments
(33:04):
of the Dinner Party was just a purely improvised moment
where you know, where, um, I say, I'm the devil,
and I put my hands up and just did that
little devil a little devil horns on my head. And
that was just something that just literally came to me
in the moment and out of the moment. I didn't
plan on that. I just that was just what I
(33:24):
was feeling like at the moment. And and you know,
Steve just took it and ran with it, and then
he was doing horns, and I think it's like literally
one of the funniest and I remember that we were
that we were like even in the moment, we were
like mad at each other and almost cracking each other
up simultaneously, which I think is such an incredible line
to walk that I think probably is where a lot
(33:48):
of the sexual tension lies with Michael and Chance. It's
the sort of fighting and fucking thing, you know, um,
And I just I just think that that was just
to me captured in that moment, and it was a
real moment, like the audience is seeing that exactly what
happened is exactly what happened, you know, and that's sort
(34:08):
of so so so fun and so special when you
get that on television, because that's like pretty rare that
you get any moments like that on television. That's more
of like a theater experience. So that was pretty cool.
And then I think just the amount of times that
we just all couldn't hold it together, I mean, how
much we cracked each other up, and and I think
that we were all just the discomfort of being in
(34:31):
such a small space, it being it's so hot, were
like all on top of each other. I mean, my god,
we just couldn't stop laughing at like Steve, I think
must have said a hundred different versions of you know,
getting his tubes tied, like I don't. I mean, we
just tried so many different ridiculous versions. It was great
(34:54):
and so fun and again so collaborative, and you know,
the writers sort of throwing things in and see throwing
things out, just you know, and me throwing some things out.
I don't. It was just so fun. It was to me,
it's just like playing in a sandbox that whole episode.
And I remember Jenna and I having we had some
scene where I just remember we couldn't literally was the
(35:16):
only time on the show that I that I couldn't
stop laughing. I don't remember. I think we were just
so tired and hot, and it was sort of the
end of the night and I think everybody was sent
home and it was just she and I and where
she's like in the bathroom or something, and I don't
remember exactly what the scene was, but it's upstairs and
I'm like, and I have to knock, and like every
(35:38):
time I opened the door, she opened the door. We
both were just burst into laughter. And it's like, and
that's a very unusual thing for me where I can't
get myself together. But I think it took like I
think it took like ten to twelve takes before I could.
It was it was not good. It was like it
got to a point where I was like, come on
the Laura, Like I had to slap myself. Well, I
(36:01):
think you know, a lot of people mentioned it as
their favorite episode, as you you said before it you know,
it came out of a really really difficult time in
our industry and the writer strike. But another thing that
comes up a lot is just how how incredibly cringe
e it is. It's that and Scott's taughts. Kind of
(36:22):
the two episodes on our show that was the most cringing,
And I think the moment that that represents that to
me at least, I don't know, maybe it's as a man,
but the snip snap, snip snap. Oh god, yeah, and
the idea of being forced to get a vasectomy and
then get it reversed and then get another one and
(36:42):
then it plays out in public, Um, I know, it's
so bad. And then I mean also the the Aso
Buco that's like not even in yet, right, and that
everyone's been through that, like, oh no, didn't you really
have to do this? All right, I'm gonna wrap it
(37:03):
up soon. I do want to go back. And there
was one thing that last night, just I don't know
what fascinated me. A lot of the times that you appeared,
as we talked about before, you were one on one
with Steve, but then a lot of times you were
one on one with Steve, but you were on the phone.
Can you tell me a little bit about how those
scenes were actually produced? Yeah, So I would come in
(37:26):
to set and I would go in the other room
and we would actually record me on the phone two
rooms away, so that we could really have a real
scene that was in the moment um, and I would
actually be on the phone in the other room and
he would be on the phone on camera, and we
would play the scene like that. That's so rare, right,
(37:48):
I mean that, you you know, right, I mean because
normally you would shoot the scene with a person on camera,
and then you if you weren't on camera, then you
would be in a recording studio somewhere recording your side
of it, or you know, show up at some time.
But the the humor and comedy of those scenes that
we're playing out, you know, really played out almost as
(38:10):
though you were looking at each other in the room. Um,
I remember you over in the annex right, like where
Toby used to sit. You would call in from there
and then you guys would get together and have notes,
and then you would walk back into the other room, right, Yes, exactly.
I don't know. I thought that was so great. It is,
it is, and it is honoring the real um benefit
(38:33):
of like having two actors there to to discuss and
to be you know, we're with the writers and like
with the director, and you know, we're all kind of
a team, and it's it's kind of honoring that human
that human thing that I think we're all really missing
right now, that human interaction that that none of us
(38:55):
can have at the moment with the whole COVID nineteen things.
But that is one of the great you know, one
of the great things about our work is that it
is so human. It's so it needs humans, and it
needs our human input and it and it needs to
be done by humans. I mean, you really can't. You know,
everyone's like, oh, you know, someday it's just gonna be robots.
(39:15):
They're not gonna need actors anymore. And I'm like, I
don't I don't think so, you know, I think humans
connect to other humans, and you know, you can make
them as real as you want, but there's still not humans.
And um and he and we're the ones that come
up with the surprising proof of of the moment that
makes it so much more hilarious or so much more
poignant because of what the writers wrote and because of
(39:39):
how the actors, you know, find the truth in there.
So I don't know, I've just been thinking about that
a lot, I guess, just just the human nous of
of what we do and how we really rely on connectedness,
human connectivity and and you know, we need each other
like you need another actor across from you, you know,
(39:59):
swinging the ba at and hitting the ball back to
you and like playing tennis, it's like you've got to
have got to have that to make a scene fly.
So um, I'm so grateful for for that on this show,
just the you know, I would say that Steve, he
played the game really really well on camera. I loved
I just loved when when they would say role camera.
(40:22):
I loved how we played together. I loved how free
he was hitting the ball back to me and and
receiving whatever ball I threw him, even if it was
a curveball here and there, he would sort of receive
it with glee and hit it back with real fun.
And I think that's just because we both have had
a lot of improv in our background, and when you
improvised really well, you know, you're good at like making
(40:44):
those surprises work for you. So yeah, I think that
for me, it was probably the greatest joy looking back
on the office, the times of the office, just being
able to play ball with everybody. You know, what do
you see as the show's legacy? Gosh, I mean, I
don't know, it's it's like such a phenomenon um. I mean,
(41:06):
I think sort of like any great comedy that's just
really memorable, you know, like the Andy Griffith Show and Seinfeld,
and you know, they were kind of doing something that
hadn't really been done successfully yet, and they did it
in a way that was just right, was just right,
(41:27):
and everything about the show, you know, from the writing
to the acting, to the cast of the directors to
the producing, you know, it just was right. It just
clicked and you know, who can ever say why, Like,
I don't know why because I think because it's so
it's really trying to be what it is. It's never
(41:47):
not trying to be what it is, you know what
I mean. It's just so unlike anything else that was
on television or had ever been on television. And I
think that is the magic of it. That's the thing
that made it be able to withstand this many years
and this much success and this much love. Yeah, I um,
(42:11):
I mean, you're just so talented and you were so
awesome as jan and your thoughtfulness and incisiveness, and I
just appreciate you so much. So thank you so much
for coming to talk to me. I appreciate you so much, Brian,
and I and I love that you're doing this. And
you know, I'm not really one too. It's funny, I
(42:33):
don't really I really wouldn't have thought of talking about
this stuff unless you've brought up the questions. So I
appreciate you're also you're very thoughtful questions and I appreciate
you including me. Well, there you have it. Thank you
(42:59):
so much to me Laura for joining me that conversation.
Now it gave me a whole new appreciation for the
complexity of Jan Levinson. I just love diving deep into
the psychology of our characters. I just love it. And
also snip snap, snip snap. Speaking of diving deep, next week,
(43:23):
we are kicking off another mini deep dive, this time
into perhaps the most important character on the office, the camera.
That's right, We're going to discuss the camera as a
character now. This is one of my absolute favorite things
about our show, and I'm so excited to get into
(43:43):
it even more with you guys. Until then, thank you
all for listening, and well, have a great week. The
of As Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by
me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our
(44:07):
senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias,
our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by seth Olansky.
Hi everybody. I'm l Laura Harden and I played Jan
Levinson on the Office. Well, welcome back everyone, Thank you
so much for joining me again here on the Office
(00:22):
Deep Dive. I am your host, as always, Brian Baumgartner
on the podcast today, as you just heard, we have
the insanely talented Laura Harden. Me. Laura is an incredible
actor and probably more than anyone else in the cast.
(00:42):
Acting and show biz was in her blood. Both of
her parents worked as actors, and she herself started out
as a child actor. She starred, She didn't just appear.
She starred in a TV show called Thunder when she
was ten years old. So by the time we filmed
(01:03):
the pilot, me Laura was definitely the most established performer
on set. And now me Laura played a kind of
unique role in the ensemble, right, I mean, she was
the big wig boss who rolls in from New York
every once in a while. She's not there in every episode,
but she brought so much to the show in that role,
(01:26):
especially in terms of her dynamic with Steve Carrell, which
was so hilarious and well obviously something we discussed at
length during this conversation. Unfortunately, because of COVID. I couldn't
sit down with me Laura in the studio, but even
just talking to her by phone was an absolute treat
(01:48):
for me, and so therefore now a treat for you.
So here she is, Laura Harden. Bubble and squeak. I
love it. Bubble and squeak, Bubble and squeaker, cookie, every
(02:10):
moment left over from the nut before. You know, I've
tried to As I told you before, I tried to
do all these in person. I did Ricky and Stephen uh,
(02:30):
Stephen Merchant and Ricky Gervais the other day. You sound
so much better than they do. I don't know what's
wrong with that, just because better than they are. Well, yes,
obviously I'm gonna actually i'll send you later a picture.
I am in a room totally by myself. I'm standing
(02:50):
so that I don't catch coronavirus in this thing. I'm
about three feet staring directly into a wall. It's very concerting,
but you know, um, all right, Laura, thank you so much,
um for coming to talk to me here. Well, you
didn't really go anywhere, You didn't really go anywhere, but
(03:11):
so I want to talk a little bit about you
before the Office. You started as a child actor, right, Yeah.
I started acting professionally when I was six years old.
So I was doing tons of you know, guest starring
roles I had done. I think The Office was like
my eleventh pilot that I had done. I had done
many short lived series. I've done some movies and yeah
(03:32):
that's and I've done a little feater too. So I
had heard fourteen. But but you just said so the
The Office was the eleventh pilot that you had shot.
What happened to the ten before? It could have been?
It could have been the fourteenth. I don't know, you know,
to be honest, I've done so many. I mean a
lot of them were like short lives some of some
(03:53):
of them were just pilots and then they would get canceled. Um.
Some of them were short lived series. I was on
quite a few series that lived for you know, six episodes,
ten episodes. Uh, well, I did. I did some shows
when I was a really kid, Like I did a
Shaturday morning show for kids when I was ten about
a black stallion that came when I whistled, and together
(04:14):
we would save the day, and and that one ran
for a series that was like twenty two episodes, and
then and then I did another one called Cliffwood Avenue Kids,
which was a syndicated show at the time when shows
were syndicated, and I was nine when I did that,
and that one, I think was like twenty five episodes.
But other than that, most of the shows I did
(04:34):
were like six episodes, you know, five episodes, or just
pilots that then were that were never picked up. When
did you first hear about the American version of the Office?
Had you seen the British version. I had never seen
the British version. I'm not a big TV watcher in general. Um,
and I I remember it was I remember it weird,
(04:57):
And it's weird that I do remember it, because I don't,
you know, the we was so many auditions at that
time in my life that it's weird that I remember it.
But I remember going over there, and I remember it
was sort of a last minute thing. You know. Usually
actors are, you know, supposed to be told the night
before so that they have at least a night with
the material. But it was sort of one of those
things where I think my agent called and said, oh,
(05:19):
you know, we have this thing for you. They want
you there at like a two o'clock today. It was
like an afternoon thing. I had already been on a
couple other auditions or something. I remember walking in, picking
up the material, standing outside and working on it um
and basically going in pretty cold and just doing it
but liking it like right away. And what was funny
(05:39):
was that Allison are our casting director. She had been
I get Shell was also casting a pilot at the
time that I had been in on the day before,
and probably this is how this last minute audition happened,
was probably through Allison, because I had been in for
that and they were making a deal for me to
(05:59):
come in to do a test for this other pilot.
And so I went in. I read hold for the
office pretty much pretty cold. But I also could, you know,
just because I've been doing this as long as I
as I have, you can really feel when the room
is like buzzing with what you're doing, Like everybody was
kind of riveted. It was ten Koppie and it was
(06:20):
you know, Greg Daniels and um, I'm pretty sure Phillis
was maybe there, but anyway, Allison for sure. And so yeah,
I did it, and I remember everybody just kind of
being I could tell they were just kind of like, hump,
they were they were really liking, you know, liking what
I did. And anyway, so the next I think it
(06:40):
was like a couple of days later or the next
day even, I went into test for this pilot and
Allison came out you know where I was the waiting
room and it was just me and she came out
and she said hi, and I said hi, and she goes,
you were fantastic in you know, in that audition for
the Office. Now, remember the Office was a guest star
possible reach character. That's not like just for people that
(07:03):
don't know. That's a nice thing to get, but that's
not like getting a series, like a starring role on
a pilot that could turn into a series, because that's
more money and that's you know, better for us as actors. Anyway,
so I was, like I said to Alison, I was like, yeah,
I said that was fun. I said, well, you don't
I really liked it, Like maybe I'll get both, and
she goes, uh, I really want you to get that one.
(07:23):
I really want you to get the Office. And I
thought to myself, hump, Okay, you know that's interesting. You know,
she's a she's a she's a pro. She's been around
a long time, and she knows something, you know, she
knows like she could tell that. I think that the
office was special, and so I basically just went in.
I read for the other thing. I didn't end up
(07:44):
getting it. The pilot did get made, it did not
get picked up, and I ended up getting the office,
and here we are. That's that is crazy. And when
you were originally cast, you didn't think it was a
big thing like it was. Maybe it was going to
come back. Maybe, I mean, maybe the role would come back,
but but you had no expectation for anything long term.
(08:07):
I didn't. I mean, you know, as I said, I've
been doing it so long that you just you get
to where you kind of have a pretty fixed skin
and you're pretty wary about things. And I mean I
always tell everybody that I didn't even believe we were
a hit. Um, even after we'd won the Emmy. I
didn't believe we were a hit until we won the
sag Award. And I had to walk around with that
(08:28):
like fifty pound, you know, statue all night and the
next morning I woke up and my bicep was so
sore that I couldn't lift my arm. It was like,
literally I needed physical proof. And then I was like, oh,
maybe we are a hit. And it was I just
think it's like hit me a lot later than anybody
else in the cast, because I just was I had
done so many things that were like semi successes or
(08:53):
you know, I just didn't believe it, like I just
didn't believe it right well. And and you know, you were,
you know, you were the most experienced film and television
actor certainly in the pilot. And so when you showed up,
did you have any sort of first impression of the
other people in the cast. I remember thinking that it
(09:16):
was just really well cast. I remember just feeling like,
oh my god, these are just great characters, you know,
and I and I loved immediately. I loved working with Steve.
I mean, I would say, because of my experience, you
can really get a sense very very quickly of the
actors that can that can play with you, and the
(09:36):
actors that can't. And um, because all my stuff was
with Steve in that first season, I really didn't work
with you guys at all. Really, I mean I had
no interaction with you, really decides just glancing at you
and you're glancing at me. But but it was like
it was like I was so relieved and so grateful
and excited that whenever the cameras would roll, I felt
(10:00):
Steve was very playful with me on camera as far
as just his ability to you know, give and take
and just kind of be really in the moment and
not get thrown by any little new thing I might
throw his way, Whereas sometimes you work with more inexperienced
actors and you'll do it one way and they'll go, oh,
(10:21):
you didn't do it like that, or they'll be like, oh,
I wasn't expecting that because the last time you did
it more like this, you know, And that always just
kisses me off so much, because I'm always like, oh
my god, like, really, are you kidding me? We can't
do it like, we can't do it different and have
fun and all and try a new thing, you know.
But Steve was always just like, you know, just so
ready with the bat, you know, to hit the ball
(10:43):
however it came, and I think we both had a
lot of fun with that. I mean, I would hope
he would say that he did. I certainly had a
great time working with him, right, I mean, It's funny
because I just started thinking about how so much, yes,
as you said, especially early on, but really throughout the show,
how connected you were with Steve, and how so much
(11:04):
almost unlike most of the rest of the show, you
guys played one on one quite a bit, so most
of your experience wasn't really with the entire ensemble, again,
particularly early on, but really with Steve. Yeah, yeah, I
really was, And that was very interesting. Yeah, that was
very interesting, I felt, you know, and I felt that
I think even as time went on, there was sort
(11:26):
of a sense of not belonging there for a long
long time. Really, I don't think I ever felt like
I belonged really, but I think that's probably by virtue
of the of the way that it was written. But
I that's not to say that I didn't enjoy everybody
and love everybody and feel like everybody you know, enjoyed me.
I did. I don't know. I just felt like the
(11:47):
little like the team, the clan, like you guys were
in the office every day together, um, you know, and
I wasn't. I would pop in and out, and when
I did, it was always it was mostly that kind
of more private things, which was maybe by design because
Yan is kind of an outsider, right. I Mean the
other thing that that occurred to me is, you know,
we've done a lot of conversation about you know, the
(12:10):
cast of this show and how different it was at
this time and place specifically that our show started, you know,
to break the mold, and they really sort of leaned
into these are real, ordinary people who are working in
an office specifically in Scranton, Pennsylvania. And it felt like
to me that you, you and your character though like
(12:32):
maybe it was you being like a New York person,
right like you always seemed and looked felt a little
more put together, a little more you know, which really
contrasted in a way with with everyone else who was
who was in the office, right right, Yeah, I think
that's true. And I and I remember that that was
even somewhat of a of a of a struggle with Greg.
(12:56):
I remember Greg Daniels Um talking a little bit about that,
even with me and and and with the costume designer
and um, with the makeup and hair people. You know,
he used to say a lot, you know, like make
sure she's not too pretty, make sure she's not you know,
like don't dress her too holid you know, take you know,
(13:17):
take the makeup down a little or or he sort
of and he grappled with, you know, why would why
would Michael be with someone that looked like and felt
like jan Like, how would he get someone like her?
And that was like, that was I just think a
thing on his radar all the time, because he really
wanted it to feel you know, really real and really
(13:40):
documentary and really like we were really peeking in on
this um these people's lives. And I think I think
that was just always a thing for him, and he
was always tracking that, and he would talk to me
about that, and you always wanted to know what I
thought about that? Why would she be attracted to someone
like that? And and I had lots of reasons, you know,
I I it for me, it was the need to
(14:00):
figure that out. But but that's my job, you know,
that's part of my job as an actor and certainly
as a working actor for as long as I was.
You have to find a way to win your mind,
justify kind of anything that that's thrown at you. So
I had gotten very good at at knowing how to
how to make something that seems almost unfathomable, you know, real,
(14:42):
what do you think Jan did see and Michael. I
feel like Jan was um. You know, she was really
brought up in a Mann's world. I think she became
more masculine in her affects and her behavior than she
actually was inside and I out like, you know, some
part of her was really sort of sad about the
(15:04):
loss of her femininity. And I feel like that that
Michael's kind of puppy like adoration of her um made
her feel more feminine and more womanly and more more
like she could just be, you know, softened softer with him.
And I think she wasn't. I don't think she was
(15:26):
softer with him on the outside. I just think inside
his sort of like he just wouldn't stop coming after her,
even when she was a total, you know, bitch to him.
I think that I think that just made her feel
loved and like she could let down a little bit
(15:48):
of that masculine guard that she had learned, you know,
that learned behavior. Right. Do you think that there was
real love there between Michael and Jan, Yeah, I do.
I think it was completely dysfunctional, but I do, Yeah,
I do. I think she I think she didn't even
know that she was in love with him. I think
(16:09):
she was right. Yeah, there's um, it's interesting. We I've
been doing a lot of talking about sort of michael
search for family and his need and desire to be
loved and you know, for him, his landing the boss,
right Jan, the sophisticate from New York, right like that
(16:33):
for him is a huge win. And I think, you know,
raises himself up in his own mind. Um, but I
think it was really well said, like that she was searching,
you know, she was she was coming from a specific
culture and maybe wanting something different for herself. Yeah. I
mean I think she just was really focused on climbing
(16:53):
that corporate ladder and forgot about her her need for
you know, companionship. And I think he was all wrong
in every way and there was something that was like
und undeniably attractive about that for her. I think she
just needed a little bit of shaking up and sort
of that that adoration that he had of her, Like
(17:14):
just he just was so proud of of having sex
with her, He was so proud of having a relationship
with her, and she was just like, you are so stupid.
But but I like that he kind of liked being
his trophy, even though you know she found him ridiculous.
I think do you think do you think that she
(17:36):
had gotten to a point where she was lowering her standards? Yeah,
I don't think she had standards. I think she would have.
I just don't literally, I literally don't think she was thinking.
I think she forgot about her love life. I think
she probably you know, had had sort of sex, very
disconnected sex with like, you know, different executives that she'd
(17:56):
worked with. But I don't feel like she really had
a real relationship with anybody that was really meaningful until Michael.
And I think that my instinct is that, like, her
relationship with her father was probably pretty um like disconnected.
I mean, I think that Greg would say that that
(18:17):
she had lowered her standards. I don't think it was
really about standards. I think she just was taken with
his um you know, Let's say Steve's you know, description
of that would be that it was more like an
ego phil. I don't know. I don't know what Steve
would say as far as if that was Michael's ego
phill to be with Jan or if he really was
crazy for her. But I think the way that Jan
(18:39):
read it was like Jesus I can like keep you know,
beating this dead horse and it keeps fun like it
makes her feel loved, it makes her feel worthy. It's
just a weird phenomenon, right. I think Jan definitely, you know,
liked it that she could curl up in his arms
and you know, on the on the bench on the
bottom of the bed where she put him. She could
(19:01):
cry and she could be like, I'm sorry, and he
probably could be like, oh it was it was nothing.
I don't even know what you're saying sorry for, you
know what I mean. What do you think that their relationship,
What do you think that it added or gave to
the to the show overall? Well, I think it gave.
It gave him a kind of, um like a sexual
(19:25):
play that I don't think he would have had, uh
necessarily without it. And you know, it was really something
that Steve and and I and and Greg Daniels noticed
in the pilot. I remember being at lunch with with
all of us, the three of us were having lunch together,
and I remember Steve and I and Greg all kind
(19:46):
of saying, you know, there's some kind of an interesting
spark between Michael and Jan, like there's something about them,
and we were all like, Yeah, if we get an opportunity,
if we get picked up, we should really have them
hook up sometime at a convention or something. And we
were all laughing about this idea that maybe we'd get
to have them, you know, have some kind of an affair.
(20:07):
So I think there was just the titilation that it
added to the show in the same way that you know,
the Pam and Jim love story had a little bit
of tittilation to it, and you know, and there were
other stories that you know, Dwight and Angela, you know,
there were things that all happened over time, and I
think that created at fun sort of titulation. And and
(20:27):
also because because the Michael and Jan's story was like
there was something really right about it, but also something
so wrong. It's just it's just, you know, it's just
it's kind of delicious, right. How much input did you
have on Jan with Greg or the writers? Um? I mean,
I think I do think it was a dance. I mean,
(20:48):
Larry Wilmore early on really loved to write Jan, and
he and I became friends, were still friends. Um, So
we used to talk about Jam a lot over lunch
and stuff. Greg and I talked about Jan a lot,
especially as seasons went on. You know, Um, Greg was
always curious about what I thought about you know what,
(21:11):
I how I felt she might react to this or that. Um,
that was really nice. And I would say for me again,
you know, just referring back to how long I've been
in the business, that was my first experience where writers
were really interested and collaborative in television. Uh, And so
(21:31):
Greg really like that really changed for me just sort
of everything that came after that, you know, just the
feeling of that. And I I'm not sure I think
Greg was a big, big part of changing the way
writers really are on sets, on television sets. I really
(21:53):
do think he was kind of a maverick and a
leader in that, certainly for for my experience, which was
you know, he the at that time. I've had a
lot of experience, and I just never had writers interacting
on such an intimate way with the actors and just
being on set as much as they were being, you know,
being so involved and so hands on and really wanting
(22:15):
to hear from all of us. I loved that. Gosh,
that was just a revelation for me, right, I mean,
often on other shows, like writers are on set to
really oversee and make sure that the words are being
said right or said correctly right. But you know, I
I agree, I think here it was really about a
(22:36):
collaboration and finding the best answers that we could to,
you know, to make something funny or you know, to
make it work better than it really was collaborative. So
that was different for you. Greg was different for you. Yeah. Yeah,
and all the writers and and um, I mean Mindy
Mindy Kaley wrote that, you know, wrote that episode of
(22:57):
me singing the baby to the baby because I had
just done Lame is on on at the Hollywood Bowl
and she was so blown away that I had done
that and that you know that I had a voice
like that, and she was like, we've got to get
you singing on the show, and I got to find
a way to do it, and you know, and that
it was just kind of neat that they were wanting
to really use like what we had to give, and
(23:19):
they were, you know, finding ways to do it. I mean,
you know, and they would take things that we would
say and turn them into jokes. I mean, the whole um,
the whole breastfeeding the baby at the office thing. For
me happened, I think really because I was breastfeeding my
daughter at a brunch that we had with Gregg and
his wife and Steve and his wife that Greg's house,
(23:42):
and I think it made it made Steve in particular uncomfortable,
and I think that Greg was sort of I don't
think he was uncomfortable, but I think, you know, I
also felt really like very feminist about that, you know, like,
you know, we can carry guns in this country, but
you can't breastfeed a baby, and that's like what our
boots are for, you know, like I felt. And I
think I even said that at the brunch, and I
(24:03):
think Greg just took that and was like, oh my god,
this is amazing. We're doing this on the show. And
I think the war Hal thing also came, I think
similarly because of that, because they came over to my
house for dinner with Paul Fieg and his wife one night.
And I have a record cover that I you know,
(24:25):
I have a few CDs and that I've made, and
one of the record covers of my record called Her
is a painting that one of my closest friends who
I've known since I was twelve years old, painted for
me and it's a giant painting of me with a
whole bunch of kittens, and it's basically a kind of
inspired by a gil elve Grin pin Ups painting. And
(24:47):
we had that hanging over my couch in our old house,
and I remember when they came in, um Greg saying
something about it, and me saying, you know, what's interesting
about that is that is that I wonder sometimes if
people think that I think that that's like serious, you
know what I mean, Like if people think that, like
(25:09):
I have a painting of myself over my couch, like
I have to see myself every day at a giant painting,
you know. And I was we were joking about how,
you know, I think it's funny that that For me,
it's like a total ton of tongue in cheek thing.
But it's also reverence of my second CD and this
sort of like you know, all these very funny tongue
(25:31):
in cheek songs that are you know, that are that
I wrote. And so for me, it's like it's a
part of a celebration of something I achieved in my life.
That's part of my like passion and you know, but
it also is to me a joke like I don't.
I don't think of it as like, you know, like
the Queen's portrait. But I think he loved that so
(25:53):
much and we had such a long talk about it
that then it showed up in the dinner party and
I just remember loving it so much, like, oh my god,
this is genius. Like Greg is just so good at
spotting where there is an opportunity to just you know,
make a great joke about something. How much of Malla
do you think there isn't? Oh my god, of course,
(26:15):
I mean, isn't there. I mean, I think everybody. I
think all my characters have me and them for sure.
I mean, I'm I'm them there me. Um, I'm a
lot different than her, of course, um you know, but
I think for sure, like the sexuality piece of her is,
like you know, I I brought that for sure. I
don't think they would have necessarily known that jan was
(26:36):
that kind of I don't think they would have gotten
that she was that sexual had I not been playing her.
I just felt that about her and brought that to her.
And I think I'm way warmer than her, and I
certainly you know, way more way more conscious and she is.
I've done like you know, way over ten thous hours
of therapy. Like, I know myself a lot better than
(26:58):
jan those person um, you know, but I think certainly
there's elements of her that are me and neither are her.
That would be weird if there were. You know. One
(27:31):
of the other things I think that the show explores
is this idea of the American dream, both with you know,
with love or bettering themselves, like with Jim and Pam
or Michael um. And you know, specifically the Dinner Party episode,
which is I mean maybe maybe the best episode that
we ever did. UM to me, it it talked very
(27:53):
specifically about the financial strain that we as Americans were
really in on at the time. So it was played
for comedy, but there were there was real stuff going
on there. Yeah, totally, Yeah, And that was an interesting
time just even the making of that episode was you know,
was was right during the writers strike, so it was
(28:14):
a very weird. It was a weird time to be
making that episode. Anyway, we had to stop, we stopped
and started again, I seem to recall, Um, Yeah, and
we were very it was very, very very hot. We
were in a little condo over in the valley and
it was like, oh my god, it was just horribly,
horribly hot. It was like a hundred and three degrees
(28:37):
or something. So we had to keep turning the air
conditioning off so that we would you know, for sound.
So we were all in there, just wedding, and we
couldn't really go anywhere. We literally couldn't really get away
from anybody. So whatever issues you were having, we were
all having them together. Right. You talked a little bit
about this before, But what do you think Jan's dream was?
(29:02):
I mean, some would say she she had the American
dream at that moment, right, Like she's the CEO of
her own candle company and she's singing and she has
a man at home that's taking care of her, right, Like,
do you think that that was her dream? Um? Yes,
well I think it was sort of what she thought
her dream was. Um. But obviously, you know, it obviously
(29:25):
wasn't because she was so tortured in pursuing maybe pursuing
you know, this idea of an ideal that she thought
was going to make her happy and but she was,
but it wasn't. It wasn't making her happy because she
had more to give than that, um. And also because
she just wasn't with the right partner. I mean, ultimately,
Michael is definitely not you know, he definitely couldn't match her,
(29:50):
he couldn't need her. He's not as intelligent as she is.
He's not as worldly as she is. You know, he's
probably not as sexual as she is. Like, like, I
remember one a friend of mine telling me before I
got married that there's like four things people need to
look at with whoever they're potentially going to marry before
they marry them. Basically, it's like physical activity, like if
(30:11):
you know, one's a couch potato and one likes to
hike all the time, that's not going to work out
so well. And the other is religion or spirituality you
have to be kind of on the same page there,
and then sexually you have to be kind of have
the same you know, similar appetite, and then intellectually right,
so it's like all those things. If you look at
any of those things with jan and Michael, they're probably
(30:34):
pretty much missing every single target. That's so good well,
her like Journey, I mean, on the outside, you could
say that she had it all right. She's a super
successful businesswoman in New York City, and then she gets
(30:58):
fired for that and falls apart art and moves into
a condo with her boyfriend. Right, but then she kind
of builds herself up again and she has this candle business,
and then she has a baby, and then she eventually
becomes like a big executive again for White Pages. Like,
I don't know, there's just something about her searching, uh
(31:18):
that is just so interesting to me. Yeah, I think
it's sort of it's the wonderful it's the wonderful element
of not enough that she's constantly he's constantly trying to
fill that void of um, nothing is ever enough, you know, Um,
Michael's not enough, and then the job is not enough,
(31:40):
and then the next job is not enough, not enough.
And I think that I think I really infused her
with that. That's just the thing I understand super well.
And and I think it's a it's a it's a
fascinating and very funny thing to to sort of wrap
a character in sort of that cloak of just nothing
ever ever being satisfy factory. And I think it's also
(32:01):
just I think, to me, jan is a great example
of what a lot of women go through. I think
people identify with her because she struggles with I think
a common problem just in modern day society amongst women,
which is this this idea of not enough of what
(32:22):
that is, you know, that what what are we supposed
to be? You know, we're supposed to be able to
be moms and successful businesswomen and great sexy partners and
money earners and soft and beautiful. And it's a real thing.
And I think that Jen encapsulated that in a way
(32:43):
that no other character on the Office did. I agree,
her search the entire time was an active search for
something better. Yeah, for sure, um, other than it being
super freaking hot. But other than that, is there any
other specific memory race that you have from Dinner Party episode? Well,
first of all, I mean one of the greatest moments
(33:04):
of the Dinner Party was just a purely improvised moment
where you know, where, um, I say, I'm the devil,
and I put my hands up and just did that
little devil a little devil horns on my head. And
that was just something that just literally came to me
in the moment and out of the moment. I didn't
plan on that. I just that was just what I
(33:24):
was feeling like at the moment. And and you know,
Steve just took it and ran with it, and then
he was doing horns, and I think it's like literally
one of the funniest and I remember that we were
that we were like even in the moment, we were
like mad at each other and almost cracking each other
up simultaneously, which I think is such an incredible line
to walk that I think probably is where a lot
(33:48):
of the sexual tension lies with Michael and Chance. It's
the sort of fighting and fucking thing, you know, um,
And I just I just think that that was just
to me captured in that moment, and it was a
real moment, like the audience is seeing that exactly what
happened is exactly what happened, you know, and that's sort
(34:08):
of so so so fun and so special when you
get that on television, because that's like pretty rare that
you get any moments like that on television. That's more
of like a theater experience. So that was pretty cool.
And then I think just the amount of times that
we just all couldn't hold it together, I mean, how
much we cracked each other up, and and I think
that we were all just the discomfort of being in
(34:31):
such a small space, it being it's so hot, were
like all on top of each other. I mean, my god,
we just couldn't stop laughing at like Steve, I think
must have said a hundred different versions of you know,
getting his tubes tied, like I don't. I mean, we
just tried so many different ridiculous versions. It was great
(34:54):
and so fun and again so collaborative, and you know,
the writers sort of throwing things in and see throwing
things out, just you know, and me throwing some things out.
I don't. It was just so fun. It was to me,
it's just like playing in a sandbox that whole episode.
And I remember Jenna and I having we had some
scene where I just remember we couldn't literally was the
(35:16):
only time on the show that I that I couldn't
stop laughing. I don't remember. I think we were just
so tired and hot, and it was sort of the
end of the night and I think everybody was sent
home and it was just she and I and where
she's like in the bathroom or something, and I don't
remember exactly what the scene was, but it's upstairs and
I'm like, and I have to knock, and like every
(35:38):
time I opened the door, she opened the door. We
both were just burst into laughter. And it's like, and
that's a very unusual thing for me where I can't
get myself together. But I think it took like I
think it took like ten to twelve takes before I could.
It was it was not good. It was like it
got to a point where I was like, come on
the Laura, Like I had to slap myself. Well, I
(36:01):
think you know, a lot of people mentioned it as
their favorite episode, as you you said before it you know,
it came out of a really really difficult time in
our industry and the writer strike. But another thing that
comes up a lot is just how how incredibly cringe
e it is. It's that and Scott's taughts. Kind of
(36:22):
the two episodes on our show that was the most cringing,
And I think the moment that that represents that to
me at least, I don't know, maybe it's as a man,
but the snip snap, snip snap. Oh god, yeah, and
the idea of being forced to get a vasectomy and
then get it reversed and then get another one and
(36:42):
then it plays out in public, Um, I know, it's
so bad. And then I mean also the the Aso
Buco that's like not even in yet, right, and that
everyone's been through that, like, oh no, didn't you really
have to do this? All right, I'm gonna wrap it
(37:03):
up soon. I do want to go back. And there
was one thing that last night, just I don't know
what fascinated me. A lot of the times that you appeared,
as we talked about before, you were one on one
with Steve, but then a lot of times you were
one on one with Steve, but you were on the phone.
Can you tell me a little bit about how those
scenes were actually produced? Yeah, So I would come in
(37:26):
to set and I would go in the other room
and we would actually record me on the phone two
rooms away, so that we could really have a real
scene that was in the moment um, and I would
actually be on the phone in the other room and
he would be on the phone on camera, and we
would play the scene like that. That's so rare, right,
(37:48):
I mean that, you you know, right, I mean because
normally you would shoot the scene with a person on camera,
and then you if you weren't on camera, then you
would be in a recording studio somewhere recording your side
of it, or you know, show up at some time.
But the the humor and comedy of those scenes that
we're playing out, you know, really played out almost as
(38:10):
though you were looking at each other in the room. Um,
I remember you over in the annex right, like where
Toby used to sit. You would call in from there
and then you guys would get together and have notes,
and then you would walk back into the other room, right, Yes, exactly.
I don't know. I thought that was so great. It is,
it is, and it is honoring the real um benefit
(38:33):
of like having two actors there to to discuss and
to be you know, we're with the writers and like
with the director, and you know, we're all kind of
a team, and it's it's kind of honoring that human
that human thing that I think we're all really missing
right now, that human interaction that that none of us
(38:55):
can have at the moment with the whole COVID nineteen things.
But that is one of the great you know, one
of the great things about our work is that it
is so human. It's so it needs humans, and it
needs our human input and it and it needs to
be done by humans. I mean, you really can't. You know,
everyone's like, oh, you know, someday it's just gonna be robots.
(39:15):
They're not gonna need actors anymore. And I'm like, I
don't I don't think so, you know, I think humans
connect to other humans, and you know, you can make
them as real as you want, but there's still not humans.
And um and he and we're the ones that come
up with the surprising proof of of the moment that
makes it so much more hilarious or so much more
poignant because of what the writers wrote and because of
(39:39):
how the actors, you know, find the truth in there.
So I don't know, I've just been thinking about that
a lot, I guess, just just the human nous of
of what we do and how we really rely on connectedness,
human connectivity and and you know, we need each other
like you need another actor across from you, you know,
(39:59):
swinging the ba at and hitting the ball back to
you and like playing tennis, it's like you've got to
have got to have that to make a scene fly.
So um, I'm so grateful for for that on this show,
just the you know, I would say that Steve, he
played the game really really well on camera. I loved
I just loved when when they would say role camera.
(40:22):
I loved how we played together. I loved how free
he was hitting the ball back to me and and
receiving whatever ball I threw him, even if it was
a curveball here and there, he would sort of receive
it with glee and hit it back with real fun.
And I think that's just because we both have had
a lot of improv in our background, and when you
improvised really well, you know, you're good at like making
(40:44):
those surprises work for you. So yeah, I think that
for me, it was probably the greatest joy looking back
on the office, the times of the office, just being
able to play ball with everybody. You know, what do
you see as the show's legacy? Gosh, I mean, I
don't know, it's it's like such a phenomenon um. I mean,
(41:06):
I think sort of like any great comedy that's just
really memorable, you know, like the Andy Griffith Show and Seinfeld,
and you know, they were kind of doing something that
hadn't really been done successfully yet, and they did it
in a way that was just right, was just right,
(41:27):
and everything about the show, you know, from the writing
to the acting, to the cast of the directors to
the producing, you know, it just was right. It just
clicked and you know, who can ever say why, Like,
I don't know why because I think because it's so
it's really trying to be what it is. It's never
(41:47):
not trying to be what it is, you know what
I mean. It's just so unlike anything else that was
on television or had ever been on television. And I
think that is the magic of it. That's the thing
that made it be able to withstand this many years
and this much success and this much love. Yeah, I um,
(42:11):
I mean, you're just so talented and you were so
awesome as jan and your thoughtfulness and incisiveness, and I
just appreciate you so much. So thank you so much
for coming to talk to me. I appreciate you so much, Brian,
and I and I love that you're doing this. And
you know, I'm not really one too. It's funny, I
(42:33):
don't really I really wouldn't have thought of talking about
this stuff unless you've brought up the questions. So I
appreciate you're also you're very thoughtful questions and I appreciate
you including me. Well, there you have it. Thank you
(42:59):
so much to me Laura for joining me that conversation.
Now it gave me a whole new appreciation for the
complexity of Jan Levinson. I just love diving deep into
the psychology of our characters. I just love it. And
also snip snap, snip snap. Speaking of diving deep, next week,
(43:23):
we are kicking off another mini deep dive, this time
into perhaps the most important character on the office, the camera.
That's right, We're going to discuss the camera as a
character now. This is one of my absolute favorite things
about our show, and I'm so excited to get into
(43:43):
it even more with you guys. Until then, thank you
all for listening, and well, have a great week. The
of As Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by
me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our
(44:07):
senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias,
our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor
is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is
Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by
my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed
by seth Olansky.
Host
Brian Baumgartner
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com