Paul Feig

He directed Dinner Party, Niagara, and Office Olympics, among many others. And since then, the man, the legend, and everyone’s favorite “bundle of joy” has completely rocked the comedy genre. Director and producer Paul Feig joins Brian this week to jump head first into the big questions: why did the real documentary crew make us relate to the show? How did Paul end up directing Dinner Party? And the most important of all - was Michael *really* the bad guy?

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm Paul fig I directed about nineteen episodes of
the Office. I was a co exact producer for one season,
season five, and uh, it was probably my favorite job
I've ever done working on this show. Hello everyone, and

(00:24):
welcome to this week's episode of The Office. Deep Dive.
Probably my favorite job I've ever done. I am your host,
Brian Baumgartner, my guest today. Is the absolutely the only
way to describe him. A bundle of joy Paul Feig. Now,
Paul was a director and a producer on the Office.

(00:48):
That's true, but those titles don't quite do him justice.
Paul was a core member of the team starting in
season two, so much so that when Greg starts did
working more and more on Parks and Wreck in season five,
Paul became our number one go to in house person

(01:09):
on set for any questions or issues that came up.
Paul was like the consigliari of the Office, you could say,
and he had a huge influence on the show, as
all good consigliaries do. But it wasn't just our show.

(01:29):
Paul also created Freaks and Geeks and has made tons
of fantastic comedy movies, Bridesmaids, Spy, The New Ghostbusters, so
many more. And here's the thing. Paul once said that
our casting director Alison Jones changed the face of comedy,

(01:50):
which is true, but Allison says that Paul, along with
Judd Apatow, changed the genre of comedy itself. Plus, Paul
is hilarious. Just check out his Instagram you'll know what
I mean. He's a super nice guy. And to top
it off, he is the most dapper man in Hollywood.

(02:14):
Definitely the only person who showed up for our conversation
in a three piece suit. So on that note, here
he is Paul fig Bubble and Squeak. I love it,
Bubble and squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cookie every month

(02:40):
left over from the NABB before. How are you? I'm good?
Are you look amazing always? Yeah? You don't make yours like?

(03:00):
Great to see you? Oh my god. Yes, it has
been amazingly fun. Yeah, I mean, it's thank you so much.
Oh no, this worked. Sitting down? Um, what are you
about that? You're working on something shooting pot It was
going to shoot a pilot in North Carolina, so ready

(03:21):
for that, and then we're gonna do a movie after that.
So very nice and busy which is nice. Yeah, what
what we're in North Carolina is a pilots Wilmington's. I
was there. I mean it's been now, Oh my gosh,
maybe it's been a little bit of time. This show,
which you probably never heard of. It was one of
those weird things. It was a drama that I was

(03:43):
a fan of and they called and I was like, yeah,
it was um good behavior. Oh yeah, oh that's a
cool show. Oh my gosh. It was so much fun.
And Wilmington's was great. Oh good, Yeah, that's my first
time when I was an actor at it. Back in
ninety four war I shot a movie there, Heavyweights. We
shot that, but it was that was more Asheville Henderson Bills.

(04:06):
It's more Blue Ridge Mountains. But I loved North Carolina.
It was one of those cases. We have this every
time I shoot anywhere. It's what we call I want
to live there. Iteas you start looking for houses, I
got to live here. Yeah, let's just start looking. Huh.
I wonder what this model money will get me here
on the ocean, and I always solve it by going, okay, now,

(04:26):
flash forward. It's the final day of production and the
trucks are pulling out of town and you're they're waving
like all right here I am, and it's like, all right,
what have I done? Lovely towns? But what the hell
are we show biz people are gonna do? I know? Um, okay,
So what we're talking about is The Office. And now,

(04:48):
six years after we've stopped film management six years, it's
by basically any measure, the most watch show on television.
Totally insane, and people come to me all the time
about it and kids, Well, that was the thing that
always blew my mind. I wrote a couple of y
A books, um, and so did these like middle school tours,

(05:10):
and so when I would be promoting the book, it
was kind of like, the kids are like whatever. So
I just learned to pandor completely like I work on
the Office, and they would go crazy. All they wanted
to do was talk about The Office and they loved it. So, yeah,
it's got such a relevance. How did you get involved
originally in the show. Did you watch the British version
of the show. Yeah, I watched the British version of

(05:31):
the show, and actually at the time the agency I
was at came to me and a million other people
who had you know, had shows and said you want
to do this, and I was immediately like, no, why
would I possibly want to do that, Like, I can't
take that on. You can only fail like as a showrunner,
right totally. It's just like it's so iconic, you're like that,
you can't you can't do it, just get away from it.
So um So then yeah, a few years later I

(05:52):
had heard that they were, you know, doing it. And
actually the irony was I was shooting a pilot with
Rodney Rothman called Early Bird back then, and so when
we were shooting this scene writer's room scene, it was
at the same studio where Greg Daniels was was editing
the pilot, and I remember him going like, hey, guys,
come in, come in. I'm gonna get your opinion on something.

(06:12):
We're trying to figure out what the theme music is
gonna be. And so he played a couple of different
songs and then the piano one came up and we
were like, yeah, that, I think that's the one that's
really good. So I kind of like, wow, I was
there at the beginning for the piano thing. That's amazing
and then wild and then and then what happened was
when he came on you know, you know, the whole
thing about how it had to be the exact script

(06:33):
from the British version. Remember watching it and just kind
of going like, oh, I was hoping it would be
something else. I was such a big Corral fan, and
so I kind of had this thing in my head of, oh,
I guess maybe it's not gonna you know, go, even
though it was great in it. And then and I
didn't watch the rest of the six, and then my
agent called me up next year and said, oh, you
know that shows coming back and it's you know, it's
gonna be this hot show. And I was like, well,

(06:54):
I don't know, you know, but I like everybody involved
so much. So then I went and watched the other
five and went like, holy smokes, this is so funny.
When I got a diversity day, I was like, this
is one of the funniest things I've ever seen. So
then I came on board for for the first full
season and um, yeah, but I was at that first
table read where they read the Dundees and all that,
and then mine was Office Olympics was my first one. Yeah,

(07:15):
Office Olympics pretty early and in season two I think
that's the fourth third or fourth episode. I think. Yeah.
So Greg told me something interesting that he on the
pilot decided that if they stayed faithful to the British script,
the network couldn't give any notes. I buy that because

(07:36):
they were like, well they worked over there, like how
could you? And so what what he viewed his job
on on the pilot was to create the world. It
was really brilliant what he did. I mean the fact
that you know, it was partly some of you guys
got cast. Other people were writers. He said, why don't
you be on the show, And it created that great
world for the for the docuse style, you know, the

(07:57):
big thing that you know, we've kind of all figured
out going into season two. You know, the first six
were trying to be very much like the British Office
in the sense that Steve Correll's character was really unlikable.
And it was when the forty year old virgin came
out on that break that everybody goes like, wait, what's up,
and it's like, oh, no, he's lovable. He can be

(08:18):
a lovable loser, you know, and kind of be insufferable,
but he has to have victories, and so you know
that was getting seated in but it was really that
moment I think we all felt in Office Olympics when
when Steve made the decision to start crying, you know,
or yet Terry when the Metal ceremony, Remember we were
all kind of like that's it, Oh my god, and
it was just um and it felt like it just

(08:38):
you could feel that shift. Well, speaking of that, that
moment and the Halloween moment, both directed by you, people
have talked about the softening of him and the showing
of his humanity. Yeah. Well remember in the in the
stage directions for the Metal Ceremony, it was like everybody's
kind of laughing at him, so it was gonna it
was supposed to be this big burn on him. But
I mean it's all Steve. I mean, Steve made this

(08:59):
this vision to get emotional, and I remember we're just
we're else standing there like oh my good. So I'm
just rightening up, going like, go go further with it,
Go further with it. Um. It's this thing that I've
just discovered over the years because I love British comedy
so much, and Britt's really love unlikable lead characters because
then they just get to see them torn apart and
there's some sort of a come upance with that, much

(09:20):
like the British press to take people down. But American
audiences can't get behind it. It makes them very frustrated.
They want American audiences just want to invest in the
lead character. It's it's our the beauty of how lovely.
But a teenage country we are. We still have optimism
and all that, and so I think it's great, but
it's it's just this lesson I've learned over and over again,
but I never learned it as fully as I did

(09:43):
from my experience on the Office. Yeah, it's interesting because
if you look at sort of the iconic dramas that
were happening around the time that The Office was going,
they're unlikable characters that found humanity. Like if you think
of Tony Soprano or um Walter White or you know,
you have these bad bad men that find a humanity

(10:07):
that people somehow root for it. Did that was that
a shift or was it sort of okay in terms
of drama but not comedy here? I think it was.
I think it's the difference between more niche cable stuff
and mainstream network stuff. You know, because this is back
when you know, well you guys started before networks ruled
the roost, which is just not that way anymore. And

(10:27):
so I think, you know, to have that broad appeal,
you have to have this formula, right. Part of what
we've talked about is that kind of this revolution in
terms of changing the face of network television really started
with you and Freaking Geeks. Um, what I know, I'll

(10:50):
think full credit. I don't know if it's thank you,
Brian no, I think. I mean, you know, we talked
to Alison Jones, and Alison talked about like her affinity
from Misfits and you know, she cast Golden Girls and
Family Ties and all of these traditional network shows, and
then she talked about Freaks and Geeks being the first
cool show that she did, and that she had an

(11:11):
affinity you know, for people who were sort of different.
You do as well, Yeah, well, I mean, you know,
Freaks and Gigs was really my reaction to all the
years of stuff I'd watched about cool kids and cool
people in high schools, about all of the you know,
it's like soap operas. I was just like, I can't
take this anymore. Just it has no relevance to my past.
What's and it makes me feel like a weirdo, like

(11:32):
what group was I in? So I really just kind
of wrote it as you know, as a reaction to that.
Um no, I mean, you know there was things like
Ally McBeal and stuff that we're kind of playing in
that world. There was also the movie Welcome to the
Dollhouse that came out was was really influential for a
lot of people. And what it influenced at the networks
was they were all kind of like, we need to
get a show like that. So I had kind of

(11:55):
on the side written this spec pilot and it just
happened to kind of match into that, and so, um
we we chopped it around and NBC just jumped on
it in a great way. And we had one of
these amazing meetings where you come into go like we
have no notes, just go shoot it. And it's like
it was, you know, going like you you know, I
was all set for a fight of like you gotta
let us cast you know, nerdy kids. I don't want
to cast like models, and then you know, and they

(12:17):
were like, no, we agree. So yeah, so it was
really great and um yeah, I mean, you know, the
thing we brought that wasn't a lot of is just
the idea of like a bitter sweet comedy that's like
not a comedy and not a drama that's sort of both.
It's like real life, you know. But that's why we
got canceled. We you know, we only aired twelve episodes,
and the people at the network, we're in love with

(12:39):
the show, but the heads of the network just couldn't
figure it out because it just didn't It didn't do
what a normal TV show does. It wasn't it wasn't
wish fulfillment, you know. I remember them always going like,
why can't he why can't you get with the cheerleaders, Like,
we don't have a show because of the cheerleader. Wouldn't
be real life. None of our expers that were writers.
You want to bring a bunch of cool guys in, right, right, Yeah,

(13:02):
And then it just kind of yeah, we just you know,
did it as long as we could not. You know,
I always credit NBC for letting us do what we
did right well. And I think it's why everybody who
worked on the office has a huge soft spot for
Kevin Riley because he stuck his neck out. You know,
he wasn't there when Freaks and Geeks was there, but

(13:23):
by the time the Office came around and he fought
for it. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he was the champion
the toll because I know that thing was I mean,
any other person would have canceled that show after the
first six just because of the ratings. Because of the ratings,
you know, was we were in the basement of the
ratings every week ironically with seven million viewers per week,
which now we would be with the biggest show into

(13:44):
you totally. Um. Gregg talked about that he was sure
that the show would fail, and he talked about that
he felt like his contribution would that it would be
all worth it if somehow, in the smallest of way,
he could nudge the ship of comedy in just a

(14:06):
different direction, coming out of a friend's will and gret
you know, just that's something that just he found funnier.
He was like, it would have been worth it, Like
if I had just done that, well, I mean, you know,
I always say in comedy there are these moments that
everything jumps ahead, and he definitely did that. But you know,
one of the many things that was in the way
of the Office taking off in the beginning was that style,

(14:28):
was that docu style with the zooming camera. Now we're
so used to it and nobody talks about it. But
I don't know, you've probably heard this too. You know,
I can't watch it. It It makes me sick. I want
to throw up. It's the things go moving around. But
I always credit YouTube kind of created a world in
which we could do this because, you know, comedy before
that was very over lit, very you know, three camera looking,

(14:49):
or it was a movie just very you know, here's
the shots to get the shots, and it was very
joke oriented to everything was setup, jokes out of jokebody's
really snappy and all this. And because of YouTube, people
started needs so much humor in captured moments and things
just happening on the fly and that's real, and that
comedy became completely behavioral. And I felt over the last

(15:09):
ten years, people have no patience for jokes at all.
If it sounds like a joke, and they're still jokes,
but they can't be like, you know, snappy, snappy, clever
dialogue it has, you know, on Freaks Engage, our biggest
laughs would be you know, Martin stars going you know that,
but they see them script and back in the old days,
like you need a joke here need a punchlines and no, no,
that's the joke. And you know, one of my best

(15:31):
friends is is Matt Reeves who did clover Field, you know,
and people were like, oh, oh my god, I'm throwing
up and all this stuff. You know, now it looks
we see it all the time, so it looks great.
You don't have a problem with that. Yeah, Greg and

(16:03):
Ken kappas Matt and Randall. You know, one of the
things that they talked about was the idea that everything
is harder makes it better. Well, I mean it was
absolutely brilliant that he decided to get a real documentary
crew to shoot this. I mean, it's honestly, I'm doing
a pilot right now that I'm just completely copying what
he did because somebody like Randall and Matt, who were

(16:26):
so brilliant, they are writers, they are actors, they are
producers in the way that they do this because they
have the ability coming from that world to see the
scene like they've never seen it before every time they
shoot it. And as a director, it's my absolute favorite
way to work because it's all about performance and it's
also all about kind of we're the audience, the cameras,

(16:46):
the audience going wait what he said that, and like
and kind of zooming in, and their ability to know
when to zoom in on somebody is just you know,
people go, oh, do you direct? That's like no, I
don't like occasionally going oh wait, hold off, or like
maybe pull wider here, but in general, just like you guys,
do what you're gonna do, and then we'll kind of
see if we want to change it. But cent of

(17:08):
the time you're just like, man, they don't nailed it right,
so smart. And you know, I've said before this and
through this process that every shot there was always a
discussion about where the camera was, not in terms of
getting the shot, but in terms of intention behavior character.

(17:31):
Is the camera in the same room, Are the character
is aware that it's in the room. How does that
change their behavior knowing that it's there? Yeah, totally. I
Mean That's why I've always had a hard time watching
reality TV real reality quote unquote, because I just go,
everyone's on camera. They know they're on cameras, So I'm
not watching normal behavior. I'm watching them playing to the cameras.

(17:51):
And so the fact that they harness that it makes
the comedy so much better because you know, and we
always you know, they scripted it out a lot of
the time, but it was always like, when's the spy shot?
When do we want to catch people where they have
no idea they're on camera. We're seeing the real person
versus people that are very aware of the camera. And
it's such a part of the writing, it's such a
part of the storytelling that, you know, the fact that

(18:14):
they used that and and really played into it is great,
even down to things like, you know, the the idea
that on the Talking Heads, anybody who had kind of
a bright future got to be against the window that
looked out to the streets, and everybody who was stuck
in the place got you know, the office behind them. Yes,
John Krasinski, are sorry, Jim being towards the women, Pam

(18:35):
exactly being toward the window. You know, remember coming in
the first time. You know, the first thing I ever
did when I was directing was the Talking Heads. You
just started the day with the Talking Heads, and you know,
I came in and got all this whole thing, like
really interview people, and I did, and you guys were
so nice you put up with that. I asked all
these questions before I get to the scripted thing, but
it was just it was fun. I mean, for me,
it was just this. You know, I played with improv

(18:57):
on camera before, but not to this Dan, you know,
because I worked on the Arrested development, which was so
much fun. Those scripts are so dense that even though
we would do let improv, it just wouldn't get used because,
you know, because of the way they wanted to cut
the show. So you know the fact that Greg I
can never say enough stuff about Greg Daniels. He's just
so brilliant and I learned more from him and I
think anybody in the business. You know, the fact that

(19:20):
he had the confidence to let us throw out storylines
because we would stumble upon an improv. You know, in
Halloween is is the classic one with that thing which
is Dwight, you know, looking like the you know, the
the Emperor, and we were just like, this is so funny,
and that he went for it, you know, that's so great. Yeah,
that's a great example. Yeah, of just a story that

(19:44):
is funny and let's let it play out as long
as it's a moment. You know, like I recognize that
he oh god, he looks like he's from Star Wars
and then then you will do it, Michael or whatever
you're saying. I said, yeah, totally. Um, I can't remember
if we were if we did this. By the time
you were there, it started to peter out because the
shoots got more complicated. But one of the things that

(20:05):
Ken Kappas did and we did, I know, through the
first season was the thirty minutes of busy work. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
so coming in and ultimately he wanted and you know,
Greg wanted it to feel like we had been there,
that we had been sitting there. So even us being

(20:25):
there for thirty minutes, it's like your chair feels different
than if you just sit down, which I just I
think is so interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. I Mean, one
of the things I love about Ken is like he
doesn't even say action. He just goes go ahead, And
which is great because there is that thing and I
when I do my movies and all that I've I've
purged it out of what I do. Even i'd still
call action, but there is something about it leads up

(20:47):
to this like okay, but yeah and go and it's
it's a big event. That's why I always just go
like go again. Go again, go again, to get people
out of that thing of like here it comes, they've
just redone your makeup that never is rolling and go.
And so the thing on the office was always that
the cameras never turned off until we finished a scene.
So we just kept rolling, just kept going, moving around. Also,

(21:08):
the thing that that they were doing, and I think
Ken started this too, is just saying, like all day,
everybody has to be here all day just because we're
in the office. Who don't know who we're going to
see in the background because the camera is gonna be
moving around, you know. And that carried on for a
couple of seasons, and people well started getting more successful.
I mean, I mean, but to a certain degree. It
was there throughout I mean, you know, even later and

(21:30):
there were scenes that were taking place at the reception
area and Steve Carroll was sitting in you know, I mean,
as Michael Scott was sitting in his office there in
the background. No, I mean, it definitely happened. But but
who drew the short straw in that whole series? It
was poor. He was the only when we saw through
the window. He was the only person that we saw

(21:51):
when we do the talking heads that looked into the office,
so he had Felis somehow escaped rememby asking for some
Phillis to come in a couple of times, I might
see your hand right. Just one other questions sort of
on this topic is, you know, basically, how do you
feel like the fact that there were ordinary looking people,

(22:13):
um that that and the fact that we were all
essentially unknown, how did that contribute to you think to
creating that world. Well, I made it much more relatable.
It's funny because I always say, like, you know, we
always try to go you know, like, let's just cast
really normal people. The minisome he gets on camera, they
do become appealing. It's just a natural thing that happens.
So again it goes back to this docu style. I

(22:36):
think that is just the key to everything because it
takes all the grandiosity out of the filmmaking process. You know,
when you get your close up and you're in a
movie or TV show and you get a close up,
we're tracking around you. It just becomes an event. It
just eventizes little moments in life. And the fact that
if everybody's sitting there and we're kind of at this

(22:57):
sort of high angle because all the cameramen stand up
generally unless Randall's on his pootie scooty what you called it,
sitting on this little thing with wheels. Um, we're seeing
it the way if we would just walk through the office,
that's how we we'd be watching it. And that's why
I think with the zooming in on people, it's just
like you as an audience, go oh, I would focus
on that person, and somehow in my brain I would
actually zoom in on them because your eye kind of

(23:19):
does weird things that you don't realize as you're taking
in details. And I think that's all contributed to making
it feel just normal. And what then you can do
when you have this thing of everything feels very real
and everybody's under playing because also nobody on the show
is playing big. But if something big does happen, it

(23:40):
is in a real world context, so you can get
away with it. So you know, there's some pretty absurd
stuff that happened on the office, but you just go like, oh,
that's funny. You don't go if it had been shot
in a standard movie way with like you zoom in
and a wide lens you did this, and that you'd
go like, no, that's dumb, you know, or that's too much,
but in this real life context that makes it all

(24:00):
feel real and and so um yeah, you know, but
you guys were all very very appealing. Yes in our
own specific way, yes exactly. You know. I've always said
this about especially it's more about like three camera kind
of stuff, but it really applies to the best TV shows,
the most popular comedies ever, which is it's generally in

(24:20):
one place. That's why cheers work so well, you go, oh,
I'm gonna go visit my friends in this place that
I feel very comfortable. And so that's what the office had.
And it's funny as the seasons went on, they were
always trying to get out of the office more and
I was always kind of like, let's not go too
much because I love being in this place now. It's
my happy place. So that you know, that's what you

(24:40):
had going for you. But then with this new style,
which the funny thing was at that time sitcoms were
trying to break out of their three camera thing. And
so if you watch there was occasionally watch a sitcom
and they kind of put some shot in or they
do something. But let's be tracking down the hall and
you're like, wait, what's happening? You know this is not
normal and it would distance you from it, but you

(25:03):
guys have the ability to just have this freedom with
the cameras. Right. Backing up slightly, you mentioned Diversity Day. Um,

(25:30):
you know, I think that we've talked a lot about
I don't know what you want to call them, but
issue episodes. That sounds so like very special episode. That
wasn't the intention, but you know, talking about really from
our second episode and Diversity Day, beginning to talk about
difficult social issues in a way that some would say

(25:51):
hadn't been done on television since All in the Family,
in terms of looking at race, but looking at it
in a different way with a protagonist who was the
one kind of stirring the pot. Yeah, a lot of
people have said it, and Steve himself said he wasn't
a bad guy. It was it was just he wasn't
woken off. Yeah, he's not savvy enough and he The

(26:13):
great thing about Steve's character, you know, I also think
Archie Bunker is like one of the greatest characters, possibly
the greatest character I've ever been in comedy. But there
are people who are just convinced they're right Also when
they say something terrible, it's like, what what did I say?
What did I say that's so terrible? It's that weird
innocence of thinking get away with it that that really
makes the difference. You know, there's no malice in that person.

(26:35):
But you talked about unlikable leading men um, you know,
being a very British thing. But it's funny like when
you look at a television history and you bring up
Archie Bunker again, another sort of unlikable leading man. Yeah,
very much so. I mean, you know, that's one of
the most challenging characters to be on TV. I think,
you know, people try to replicate that so many times,

(26:56):
and it just that was so specific to the time. Ironically,
I almost like, I think almost we're even more divided now.
I don't even think you think you can pull it
off because everybody's so self defensive. But back then there
was ability to even though everybody passions were high. You
needed that that steam relief for whatever, to to get
these ideas out there. And also, you know, surrounding that

(27:18):
shows just brilliant because it's the wife who's just a saint,
and then the overbearing son in law who's too far
the other way, you know, and then the daughter is
kind of caught in the middle. So if you kind
of present a fair and balanced mixture of opinions, then
you can have fun with it. And then if you
again take the malice out of it, unless you need
a villain, then everybody's just kind of misguided. Then it

(27:42):
becomes about the appealing nous of the people playing those roles.
And I don't mean looks or anything. I just mean
do you inherently like them? And you you inherently like
Steve because he is just he's so funny and also
just you know, he thinks he's doing the doing the
right thing, and you can't. It's hard for Americans at

(28:02):
least to get mad at that. Right. Where do you
think that he fits in Michael Scott sort of in
the history of comedy leading man in television. I mean, honestly,
it's a real close race between Carol O'Connor and Steve Carrell.
For me, I've I've lamented this before, and whenever I
say it, sometimes it turned the press remembers that this

(28:25):
didn't happen, that Steve Carrell never won an Emmy, never
wanted and it makes me mental and you know Alc Balden.
I love him. He's the funniest guy in the world.
He's he's great. But you know that was a showy
part and Steve's part. I mean people would say it
to me, you like, well, but he just shows up
and he just it's crazy, and it's like, are you
fucking kidding me? You know, first of all, if you

(28:46):
know Steve, he's not crazy at all. He's one of
the most even tempered, smart guys I've ever met in
my life. But for comedy be good, it's gotta look easy.
If it looks sweaty and it looks like people are
trying too hard, it's terrible. But then when you do
so great that you make it so real, people like,
well you're not doing anything. So at some point you
just go awards mean nothing and screw it, let's just
throw it out. But the fact that there's a comedy

(29:08):
Leading Man category and he can never win it is
it's crazy. And I really think Academy, do you you like
the President's Award or whatever where you give somebody who's
been not taken care of give him that Emmy and
should be like five ft high. Yeah? Yeah, Um. When
I was talking to Rain, I said to him, the

(29:29):
comedy duo of the two of them together, you reference
the Halloween episode two. They're just so fine, They're just
so funny, and there's just it's these two archetypal characters
in the way that they fit together was just brilliant. Yeah,
and there's not I mean, there's not really a parallel
to them, because it's not Laurel and Hardy, you know,

(29:51):
and it's not abbonic Ostello. Because of that exactly what
you're saying. It's this weird they need each other, but
Michael doesn't want white acceptance, and it's it's really I mean,
but you know, such credit to Rain. I mean, what
an amazing character he pulled in to be a character

(30:11):
that could have been so over the top arch but
there is a humanity in him because he's just that
guy that we all know who's just like striving and
wants it and wants it so much and tries to
kind of throw everybody else out of the way, but
he's still sensitive. And Yeah, it's really I mean, you know,
in Rain, it's the greatest guy too well, and part

(30:31):
of why the show is so popular. I think that
Dwight shrewd, this character full of contradictions that don't make
any like heavy metal, dungeon and drag it like all
of these weird things. But they're so specific that that
is actually what makes it universal that people like like

(30:52):
see that it's a real character, a real person. Yeah,
I mean, because characters are all specifics. You know, when
you get in trouble, when you're writing something as you
just kind of have this general kind of feeling of
what your character does, and you know it's really going
through that laos agree list of like specifics. What is
their religion, what do they believe in? What are the
are they afraid? You know? What's their favorite food? Those

(31:12):
things make up who we are if you think about it.
I mean, you know that that's It's like how many
times you meet somebody you really like them, then you'll
find out one thing and you're like, wait, what you know,
either suddenly you don't like them because of it, or
you feel really bad for them, or you know. So
it is that that attention to detail, and that's a
great thing about the television series is that you have
week after week to keep establishing these things and to

(31:35):
surprise people with you know, oh, I thought I knew
exactly who that person was, and you go like, oh
you think, you know, check this out. And that's what's
brilliant about it. I've gone to movies because I get
more of a stomach gig thinking about having to do
stuff week after week, because I'm a little more of
a singular task person. So that's why I when a
show is consistently great week after week, year after year,

(31:57):
it's like a magic trick or something, and you know,
in and just you know, hats off to those those writers.
I remember just standing watching them from the other side
of the room going like that is the most brilliant
group of writers. Like you'd be hard pressed to put
together a gang like that again, you know, and and
everything they came up with was brilliant. And I would

(32:17):
just sit in that writer's room and just going, wow,
you know, it's marvel. You know, it's the case. I
try to pitch a joke and they kind to look
at me like okay, you know, like suddenly dad in
the room like pitching some shitty, old hackey joke and
they're like, okay, well I heard um, as it's been
explained to me. Like in a writer's room, you really

(32:38):
have the people who start and they're really good at story,
and then you know they're the senior there. Then you
hire in the joke people, and then eventually the story
people leave, and then you just have the joke people
kind of running the ship, but they're not as good
as story. But I mean, when you think of a
Gen Silata and Paul Lieberstein and Mike Shure and Mindy

(33:00):
and Gene and mend and b J and yeah, uh no,
I mean that that's really that's smart. I never thought
about it that way, but it's completely true. People didn't
have a specific thing they did that they were known for,
and I think that is really smart because then everybody
brought a depth of story and funny to everything they

(33:21):
were pitching, you know, and again sitting around that table
and hearing the pitches, you know, when they were going
through and punching up a script or whatever. That's why
when I would pitch like a joke, it just like
hit like a lead balloon. I'm just pitching like a
funny word or a funny word play. It's like, oh god,
but I learned so much on that, Like, you know,
it came kind of came out of that whole experience
of my years. They're going like, oh, you know, behavioral comedy,

(33:42):
this is how it works. It was weird. That's what
we used to do on freaks and gigs. But I
would get in this setting of a half hour thing
go like, oh, you gotta be more jokey and and
so you know, they what a brilliant group. Many people

(34:13):
believe the greatest episode of the Office is Dinner Party, Uh,
that you directed and you were not supposed to direct it.
Somebody else is supposed to direct it. And then the
writer's strike happened. But I remember I had been given
the script to Survivor Man, I think was the one,
and I remember going like, oh, I like the script,

(34:34):
Oh my god, can I please have dinner Party? And
it's like, well, it's already been promised that somebody else.
It's like oh no, So I mean I've literally try
to figure out like how I could subvert it or whatever.
And then the writer's strike dropped into our laps in
a horrible way, and that was what a terrible time
that was. But it just happened to work out that
when it came back, it was available for me to
do because I think he was busy, and um, it

(34:57):
was one of those things you just read and go like,
oh my god, this is the funniest thing I've ever read.
But it's also what I love because it's so cringe e.
This is just going to be like excruciating, but that's
my favorite kind of comedy. But if you remember, I
think it was probably when it aired, probably our most
hated episode. I mean, people did not like it because
it made them so uncomfortable, and I remember being very

(35:20):
surprised by that. But the feedback was coming out, you know,
on the website, and we were just getting really bad
feedback from it. So I'm so happy that now it
sorted itself out and it really taught me something I
didn't realize before that, which is the hardest part about
just you know, when you have a movie out or anything,
if you have any kind of track record, people know
what you do, you've got a voice, or they're used
to stuff that you've done. That the biggest impediment to

(35:44):
people enjoying something is the fact that it exists, and
they have to get used to it existing, and so
you know, they they're used to the feel of the office,
which is fun and definitely has cringe e stuff in it.
But so then when this thing comes up and you're like,
we're just gonna dangle you in the wind and make
you feel so uncomfortable that they're like, well, I can't,

(36:04):
how dare you do this to me? But then when
they watched and then they've gotten that out of their
head and now they know it exists and they go
back and watch it again, then you go like, oh
my god, this is the funniest thing I've ever seen.
And that episode is so obviously driven by that cast,
and um, how funny they are, and this is one
time we're putting them in a setting outside of the office.

(36:26):
Worked so great because it was a setting that meant
so much to one person. I mean, I think I
still I don't think I ever laugh as hard as
when we did the thing of Michael giving the tour
of that living room with that little TV and then
the then the shitty table, and it just it was
that was just such a team effort between Steve as
a performer, in between Randall and I and Matt figuring

(36:49):
out like you think you're on a big TV and
you pull out in this tiny thing, and then how
do we whip over to that hitty table. Oh my god,
it's just so funny. But the thing I take away
most from that episode was, and again the genius of
Steve Correll, the big breakdown they have about having a baby.
You know, it happens at the door, and it got
very dramatic, and you know, it's really like I was like,

(37:11):
oh my god, like Steve's really killing this and it's
so dramatic. But then we all kind of went, Okay,
it's gotta be funny. So I just remember going to
Steve going like, it's so good, what can you do
to just kind of make it funny? And that's when
he did the whole snip snap, snip snap that thing.
Do you know how many times v sector he has
in that just like falling apart, And then they be

(37:32):
punching in on Krazinski, who just found the funniest moment
to when he reveals the thing and just John it
just takes that little look to the camera and Randall
crashes in on him and it's the funniest. I think
that's possibly the funniest reaction shot in the whole history
of the Office. Um oh, I'm just I'm so proud
of that episode. And and it was it was just

(37:53):
so fun to put together. It was also fun just
to go in and figure out because I I was
the first person to shooting Michael's condo when he bought it,
So then going in and going like what did Jan
do to this place? And that was just a blast
that they just let us completely, you know, go wild
with kimonos on the wall and in the big the
big Andy warhol of Jan, which we never we never

(38:15):
feature it just there and you go like, oh my god, yeah,
yeah exactly. Um So in season five, you came on
as a co executive producer, right, and that was really
about I mean, it came out a function of well, one,
how great you are and two that Greg was sort
of stepping away and beginning to go work on Yeah, yeah,

(38:37):
how why did you decide to do that? I loved
you guys so much? And it was really that when
the opportunity was presented to me, I remember thinking like,
this is gonna be like the greatest schooling I've ever had,
you know, And that was I said. One of the
things was I want to be I'd like to be
in the writer's room too, which they definitely wanted. Um,
you know, it allowed me to go into helpful I was,

(38:59):
but I was in there. Um yeah, I just really
wanted to be more and more part of that show.
I knew that how great it was, and obviously by
that point it was a hit too. But you know,
I couldn't get movies made, which was all I really
wanted to do. But since I couldn't do that, I
was like, I'm sitting with this amazing gift. I really

(39:21):
want to just be a part of it. And and
you know what what happened with you know, when Gregg
brought me on too, just like a lot of people
had in their contracts that they were going to get
to direct an episode, and so he really wanted to
be there to help people. And I love that, you know.
It was so I got to you know, be with
Steve Carell when he directed his first episode, and I
also got to be with you know, you know, some
of our editors when they were doing it too, and

(39:42):
it was it was fun, and I also got to
spend more and more time on the set, which I love.
Like I will fully admit, the one thing that I'm
really sad about is I was not allowed to direct
the Super Bowl episode because I think the network wasn't
thrilled with the Christmas episode, the Meredith's um Moroccan Christmas. Yeah, exactly.

(40:05):
I think that they had some issues. So I remember
being kind of penalized because I was kind of like, well,
of course I'm the in house director, I get to
do the hour long one, and then you know, I didn't,
and I remember just being very upset, and then it
won the Emmy for the Directors. But he did a
great job, I mean, amazing job. Um you also directed

(40:28):
um Niagara. Um, how how did you find out ultimately
how that the wedding actually played out with the other
wedding in Niagara, etcetera. Well, I mean it was you know,
first I was so excited to get to do that one,
and you know, the first time we ever think we
ever went on location to do anything on the show,
even though all the stuff we shot at you know
that's supposed to be there was actually in uh the

(40:50):
smokehouse right right block away from my house. My actual um,
you know, I mean one of the greatest honors for
me was also getting to do the Proposal, which which
was the most expensive shot we ever did in the
show's history. That was the very first episode of that
that season, and we basically blew the entire budget for

(41:11):
the rest of the season on that shot, which costs
I mean like a half a million dollars because it
filled a CG and and all this anyway, Um, but
so yes, when we got to the wedding, it was
very emotional. It was weird because we're gonna shoot on this,
you know, the Lady of the Mist or made of
the Mist thing, So that just brought so many logistical
things that you're kind of like, it was hard to

(41:31):
kind of invest in the emotion of it at first
because I was so worried, like, are we gonna get soaked?
Are we gonna you know, it's a camera gonna screw up.
But it wasn't until we got in the editing room.
It was Claire, you know, Claire edited, and I was
there with her when we decided we were going to
intermix the dance number with the wedding, and we just
burst into tears. I mean, I just got I still

(41:52):
get I get so emotional watching that because it's so beautiful,
the way that it goes back and forth between the two.
But it's all so I'm jumping all around, but there
was so many things in my head when we put
that episode together, that dance number, which came out of
the blue. I mean, do you know the whole backstory
on you know what was originally Originally Greg had this

(42:12):
insane idea that was hilarious that the Dwight was gonna
d ride a horse over the Niagara false and we
were just like, I don't know, I don't we want
to kill a horse on Pam and Jim's wedding. And
he kind of fought for it and fought for it
and then finally gave in. And so it was a
very last minute thing. We had like like a day
or two, and that wedding video was all over the internet.

(42:35):
It was kind of the perfect setup. And then when
we were shooting in that church all day, I mean,
it was so much to shoot that we were running
out of time and I was like, literally had like
a half hour left. I was like, I'm not, I
don't have time to get this dance number. So like
we're gonna be like maybe two takes at it, and
the first time you guys did it, it was gold,
and it's just like that didn't dropped the mic. We

(42:56):
did it one more time but we didn't need it
because the second time, but it was really having all
those elements to work with that it just gave us
enough cards to really juffle A beautiful day. Yeah. By
the way, that I don't know if you remember this.
The people walking behind Jim and Pam onto the Maid
of the mist my parents. Oh that's right, who were vacationing.

(43:17):
And I I do remember that. I do remember that there.
Oh my god, we'll see. And I think you had
met them on Company Picnic the hundredth episode. They had
come there and I think you had actually remember that.
I didn't direct that one, but I was there supervising. Yes,
you're gonna parents. Um. One other question I have to ask,
because you just brought it up. You directed the proposal episode. Um.

(43:40):
Sound or no sound? Oh, I was very I was
a no sound guy, very much. So yeah. Oh wait, no, no, no, no,
I was a sound guy. Oh my god. No, that
was That was the most contentious moment we all ever had. No.
I was very nervous about it was so emotionally with
the sound. And I'm glad we did it because I
think it made you know, flash forward to Michael's last

(44:01):
episode much more powerful if we had done that gag
a couple of times, but we did. Their performance was
so good and hearing her and going like oh my
god and all that. It just we're already dealing with
so much, with all the across the you know, the
highway and zooming in all these cars and all that that.
I just yeah, I remember fighting really really hard for that,
and I think Greg was always kind of on the

(44:23):
fence of whether we should have done it. Um talk
about one word, literally, Hey, guy who fixes the cars
for the show, come on in. What do you think
Someone told the story that he brought in a security
guard and came in to watch it. He was like,
he was like, who are these guys talking? Like he
had no idea, Like I've never watched the show. It
was just like, yes, Um. You also directed Steve Carrell's

(44:48):
last episode, Goodbye Michael. What do you remember about shooting that? Well,
the biggest thing I remember, first of all, it was
just so emotional, But that was what was interesting about it.
You probably remember this too. Every time we were going
into a scene, especially towards the second half of the week,
it was that feeling of like this is our last

(45:09):
scene with with Steve this group actors, and we would
do the first few takes and it would the would
be a real sadness about it, and I had to
constantly go like, remember, we love Steve, we don't necessarily
like Michael, you know, and it would change the dynamic.
But I completely got it because I was so emotional too.

(45:29):
I would kind of falling into that and then going like, wait,
this can't be everybody's weeping because it's not going to
track with the whole rest of the show. And that
also made me very sad for Michael Scott, like they
like him, but they don't love him, you know what
I mean. But that's very real. You know. You know
how many times you've got people you work with other

(45:49):
than you go, oh I'll miss them. You're not like,
oh my god, I can't live without, you know, the boss,
or I can't live with that that manager, you know.
But that was really really hard because everybody wanted to
break down. Um. I also remember, and I have a picture.
I've got to find it somewhere. I when we were
the last day and we're shooting something, I looked over

(46:11):
and Greg, you know that that the couch when you
come in the front door there's a couch next to reception.
I looked and Greg was just literally laying flat out,
face down on the couch, just with this kind of
his hands under his head, and it just some everything
up of just like, we can't believe Steve is going,
we can't imagine life without Steve Carrell on the set. Um,

(46:32):
it was tough. Um. The weird thing for me was
that we shot the very last thing, probably three days
before the end of the episode, which was the thing
at the airport with Jenna and Steve, and that got
me more than I kind of thought. I mean, the
last day got me, but I was so on task
doing that airport scene. That was when I was just like,

(46:52):
you know, and so it takes off the mic and
just you know, I'm actually getting choked up when I
talked about it, just seeing them, yeah, Herry going off
and you don't know what they say, and just her
hugging him, and it was just it was really it
was really something. Um, but it really landed for me
just what the show was and just you felt like

(47:14):
you were kind of part of history in that moment,
and I I loved everybody, but I remember saying like
I'm now I'm not going to direct any more episodes
because and I love all the episodes after Steve laugh.
But to me, it's just like that was the group.
You know. I almost felt like I almost had to
leave with Michael Scott in a weird not that anybody
could care, but it was just it. It put us

(47:35):
such a completion to everything for me that that was
kind of like that was it? Weirdly, yeah, because you
didn't come back and direct after No, and I didn't.
It was not any reason like how dare you? It
just kind of it was just this really weird natural
feeling of like, oh there's something, it's over. We're all
we're all we're all going. I don't know, I don't know,

(47:56):
I quite know how to say it. It It just felt
like there was closure for me when that happened. Yeah,
that said, I wish I kind of kind of wish
I would have done some of them after because I
missed you guys so much. I'll tell you one interesting
thing about about that episode, when she goes to see
the King's speech. We Bridesmaids it was going to come out,
but it was coming out in a few months, and

(48:16):
we almost put Bridesmaids up on the Marquee, but we
all decided, well, what if a bombs so, so we
didn't do it. Really yeah, yeah, that's so funny. So
she almost snuck in to see bridesmace Um well, and
obviously Bridesmaids was huge and brought Ellie to a whole

(48:38):
new level. And really then from changing the face of
television comedy, you literally changed the gender of no of
American movie comedy with that movie as well. I mean
that was groundbreaking in its own way right now. I
mean it was it was what I had always wanted
to do. I I love, you know, female lead comedy,

(48:59):
and you know, I would just for years, after Freaks
and Geeks and before it even pitch ideas that were
female centric, and it just you know, oh, you can't
do that, you know. Okay, I guess they know more
than I do about in show biz and ifinally go like,
well wait, why can't you you know? But it was
really you know, Judd doing Knocked Up and saying to Kristen,
you're great, write your own script, and then they came
up with that that idea because I was at that

(49:21):
table read back in two thousand seven when it was
just you know, untitled wedding movie and uh, you know,
and then three years later we actually got to do
it right well the final um very quickly. What do
you feel like the legacy of the show is gosh,
you know, it's a show that you just want to

(49:45):
watch over and over again. I mean there's a few
shows like that in my life. Taxi was always that way. Um,
all in the Family is always that way. But the
Office is always gonna be that because it's just comfort food,
you know, and it's a very it's so funny, but
it's so relaxing to sit with these people. The tone

(50:06):
of the show is very relaxed. I love the fact
that we didn't have any score, no music on the show.
You know, our sound mixes always about like where do
we put the phone ringing? Like we're just always placing
phones ringing in the background and it just becomes this
really low key, relaxing, happy place that you can go to.
And every episode there's something several things in it you're like,

(50:29):
oh my god, this is my favorite thing. Is my
favorite thing? You know, there's always you know, money part
pytheon the Holy Grails one of my favorite movies, because
every scene that comes up, you're like, oh wait, this
is my favorite scene. Oh wait, this is my favorite thing, right,
And that's what this show is, everything that comes up
because you go, like, you love these characters and you
remember these moments and you can watch them over and
over again because they're not sweaty and they're not trying
too hard, and they're not joke joke, joke, They're just

(50:51):
behavioral and beautiful and relatable, not intimidating, and it just
makes you feel good about your life, and it makes
you feel good about other people, you know, it really
makes you so like, this makes you tolerant of other
people in a weird way because you're watching such a
such different group of folks that have no reason to
be together other than the fact that they are trapped

(51:12):
within this building in this situation much like school. You know,
the only reason you're there because you all live in
the same area and that's why you're there. You don't
choose to be there, and so there's just something very
lovely about that. And I think that you know, people
will be watching the show for you know, as long
as the planet exists. Well, Paul, you're I mean, seriously,

(51:34):
I know this sounds so crazy, but you really are
one of the greatest comedic geniuses that I have ever met.
Your contribution not only on this show, but in all
the work that you've done is such high quality. You're
such a good caring person as well, so you're as
smart as you are kind. So thank you one, thank

(51:56):
you coming in and sitting down with me and um
it's always always my pleasure to see you and YouTube. Brian,
You're the greatest. Remember where we first met Arrested Development exactly,
you were so funny and then Mitch wouldn't let you
do your bit because you literally like like really lecherous guy,
and so I was felt bad. So when I finally

(52:18):
got to work with you again on The Office, was like,
oh yeah, And let me just say also, everything you've
done is so brilliant. I still laugh every time I
think of Michael's a genius. That makes me laugh so hard.
From that episode that's one of our most undersung episodes
to the Surplus. So anyway, I can't stop talking about

(52:38):
the Office. I'm going to get out of here, right,
Thank you. Thanks all right, folks, That is it for today.
Thank you so much to Paul for join me. I

(53:01):
know how busy you are. It is such an honor
and a delight to chat with you, so thank you,
and to all my listeners, thank you for tuning in.
As always, please let me know what you thought of
the episode from today in the reviews. It means so
much to hear from you and that is absolutely the
best way to reach me and my team. We will

(53:23):
be back, same bad time, same bad place next week
and have a great one everybody. The office. Deep Dive

(53:44):
is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside
our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer,
our producer is Adam Massias, our associate producer is Emily Carr,
and our assistant editor is diego Topia. My main man
in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble

(54:05):
and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and
the episode was mixed by seth Olandscape