September 12, 2017 • 38 mins
Danielle LaPorte is all about being honest when it comes to her experiences on the path to self-improvement, self-growth, and self-empowerment. In this interview, she shares so much of herself that you will remark how brave, vulnerable and real she is and how much you can relate to what she's felt, thought and been through. If you've ever struggled with feeling overwhelmed by the obligations in your life or if walking on a spiritual path has felt like another item on an ever-growing checklist, then this episode is a must listen for you. This week we talk to Danielle Laporte Danielle LaPorte is an invited member of Oprah’s inaugural SuperSoul 100, a group who, in Oprah Winfrey’s words, “is uniquely connecting the world together with a spiritual energy that matters.” She is also the author of The Fire Starters Sessions: A Guide to Creating Success On Your Own Terms, and The Desire Map: A Guide to Creating Goals With Soul. Her latest book is White Hot Truth: Clarity for keeping it Real On Your Spiritual Path— From One Seeker To Another. Millions of visitors go to DanielleLaPorte.com every month for her daily #Truthbombs. It has been named one of the “Top 100 Websites for Women” by Forbes, and called “the best place online for kick-ass spirituality.” Danielle’s multi-million dollar company is made up of nine women and one lucky guy, working virtually from five countries. A powerful speaker and poet, and a former business strategist and Washington, DC think-tank exec, Entrepreneur magazine calls Danielle “equal parts poet and entrepreneurial badass…edgy, contrarian…loving and inspired. In This Interview, Danielle Laporte and I Discuss... The Wolf Parable Her book,White Hot Truth: Clarity for keeping it Real On Your Spiritual Path— From One Seeker To Another Reframing your obligations into conscious choices Bringing our artistic or creative spirit into everything we do Loosening up under the weight of obligation Spiritual path as yet another thing to achieve, another obligation The practice itself having some delight to it Pain as a motivator, laziness as an obstacle That devotion isn't easy but it's worth it The distinction between pain and suffering That the world is not comprehensible but it is embraceable by embracing the things that are in it Transformation begins with the acceptance of what is Short circuiting the healing process That what's repressed finds a way to sneak out How we have more in common than we have differences Please Support The Show with a Donation
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I think we do have more common than we have differences,
and when we realize that there's significantly less conflict, Welcome
to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have
recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like
(00:22):
garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think
ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
what we do. We think things that hold us back
and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
(00:44):
Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us.
(01:12):
Our guest on this episode is Danielle Laporte, a speaker, poet, painter,
and former business strategist and Washington d C Think tank executive.
Danielle is also an invited member of Oprah Winfrey's Super
Soul One. She is the author of many books, including
her new one White Hot Truth Clarity for Keeping It
Real on your spiritual path from one seeker to another.
(01:35):
If you're getting value out of the show, please go
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(01:56):
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(02:17):
And finally, one you feed dot net slash Facebook, which
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feeding your Good Wolf. Thanks again for listening, and here's
the interview with Danielle Report. Hi Danielle, Welcome to the show.
Hi everybody. I'm very happy to have you on. As
(02:38):
we were talking about before we got started, I recorded
an interview with you. It was quite some time ago,
and it it was the first time I ever tried to
record an interview without Chris, my partner with me, and
I blew it and so we've never been able to
air it. So I'm very excited to have you back
and get to have this conversation again. I didn't know
it was the first time you tried to record it solo.
(03:00):
Here we are. Yeah, I happened to be out of
town and I've got it all down now. I've got
to figured out, but I didn't then. So what you
learn learn as you go. So um, your latest book
is called White Hot Truth Clarity for Keeping it Real
on your spiritual Path from one seeker to another. And
we'll get into that book in just a minute, but
let's start like we normally do, with a parable. There's
(03:22):
a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life,
there are two wolves inside of us that are always
at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about
it for a second, and he looks up at his
grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And
(03:46):
the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like
to start off by asking you what that parable means
to you in your life and in the work that
you do. That parable Always choose I think you know,
the most important word in all of this is truth.
But always choose generosity. I feed my capacity to be generous. Yeah,
(04:10):
there's a line that's in your book, and it was
in one of your previous books too. You've got this
idea of in the latest book. You call it reframing
your obligations into conscious choices. Can you talk about that
because that is so important to me in my life. Well,
I think you know, this is part of getting in
the driver's seat of your life and really being an
(04:32):
intentional creator and completely washing out any victim mentality out
of your consciousness. You know, the worst extreme is that
that kind of robotic, unconscious way of living. I have
a really long list of obligations, all these things that
we think we need to do, and in that approach,
(04:55):
there's a lack of choice, there's a woo. So what
was me there? There's a you know, life is happening
to you and I don't think it happens that way
at all. Or you can choose. You can choose that
other that positive wealth doesn't happen to happen the way.
So to push most people's thinking on this, the push
back would be, well, what about feeding my kids? That's
(05:18):
an obligation. What about taking care of my ailing aging
parents that's an obligation. What about my mortgage? I gotta
pay my mortgage. You actually don't have to do any
of those things. You could choose to be unethical, you
could choose to be careless, you could you choose to
be lawless, but you're still making a conscious choice to
be a good son or daughter and a loving parent
(05:42):
and uh, you know, a responsible mortgage holder. So you know,
when you frame everything as a choice, you're empowered. It's
a completely different energetic approach to things. Yeah, I agree.
I have that aim kind of conversation with myself and
with other people, which is like, no, you don't have
(06:04):
to do that thing that you just said you have
to do. I mean you you don't. You could get
on a bus tomorrow and hide in California and live
on the streets if you wanted to, Like, you've got
lots of options. And whenever I remember that, it is
so helpful to me to get me out of that
like you said, the woe is me, or I have
to do this, I have to do that. It just
it opens me up so much to realizing that I am,
(06:28):
you know, the author of my own life to some degree.
And I heard you somewhere recently, and I don't know
where I heard it, but you were making this list
of all the things in our lives. We choose. We
choose what we eat for dinner, we choose what dishes
we put in our cabinet, we choose what you know,
what art goes on our walls or on our desk,
and and that how we are making so many choices
in life, and that being artistic and creative is really
(06:50):
about making choices, and we can bring that artistic or
creative spirit into everything that we do. You know, what
I think is really key about what you said about
the choices and the obligations is there's a lot of
different choices that we can make. So when you move
out of that the weight I mean even saying the
word obligation. It's just such a heavy crap word. You know.
(07:12):
When you move out of the weight of that and
you're still feeling resentment, I mean, there's lots of stuff
to resent. There's lots of stuff that is not fun
to do in life that you're still choosing to do.
You can start to make different choices under that commitment
you're making. So it's like, yeah, I'm taking care of
my aging parents and it's heavy duty. But you know,
(07:34):
if I move more into the power of choice, and
maybe I could get someone to take a shift for me.
Maybe I could ask for some of my inheritance money
now to cover the bills. Maybe you know what, maybe
they don't need as much attention and care as I thought.
And I'm just doing this at a guilt and I
can lay off and I can have a vacation. So
(07:56):
there's this loosening when you loosen up on the weight
of obligation, and then your creativity starts to flow. It
gets lighter, exactly. So I want to circle back. This
leads us right into one of the topics I had,
which was, you know, a theme early in the book
and really through a lot of the book, you say
that my spiritual path had become another to do list.
(08:17):
So in this case, you know, we were just talking
about obligations, and a lot of us turn the spiritual
path into yet another obligation. Well, I think in this
case it's more about it being another thing to achieve,
So then it becomes an obligation. I'm going to be
a better person, I'm going to be more giving, I'm
going to be in better shape, I'm going to be
(08:37):
more healthy, i'm going to be more evolved, I'm going
to think more clearly. And with that achievement intention, then
there's so many things you can put on your to
do list. It's another workshop. It's having to meditate, it's
having to pray, it's a new wellness regime. It's all
sorts of two does. And I shudos are great if
(09:02):
they're getting you somewhere that's more fulfilling, if you like,
you're really feeling expanded, and ideally you know, your teats
are awesome. They go from good to great if you're
experiencing some joy on the whale to expanding. It's like
there's many times there's many parts of my quote unquote
(09:25):
spiritual practice that aren't easy and they require some discipline,
and you know, I I meditate on a regular basis,
and it's not always fun. Working my day around that.
I have to get up earlier. I gotta make my
kids lunch at night so I can have my fifteen
(09:46):
minutes to my happen or whatever it is in the
morning to sit and do my thing. I still struggle
with feeling like I'm not up to my commitment as
a planetary citizen if I didn't sit that morning and
send some light to the world, or pray for you know,
victims of the hurricane, or do whatever I think I
need to do that day. Um, I don't feel like
(10:08):
anybody's keeping score anymore. I'm free to choose the practice
that works for me. And that's what's changed for me.
It's like I am choosing joy inducing practices. The yoga
that works for me. It's not the hardcore hot yoga.
It's really chill stuff. The exercise that works for me.
(10:30):
It doesn't have to be every day a week, just
three days a week is cool. You know. The kind
of meditation that works for me. It turns out I
go out of my mind if I sit for a
long periods of time and watch my in breath and
watch my out breath and try to empty my mind.
It's not how I'm wired. I choose something that fits
my personality, that fills me up. It's a big difference,
(10:51):
way more fulfilling to be devoted when the practice itself
has some delight to it. Yeah, I agree completely. And
in the book you're talking about the striking the balance
between you say, sincere spiritual aspiration versus the compulsion to
change ourselves. One of the central themes of this show
that I'm asking all the time is that, like, how
(11:13):
do we balance that idea of you know, I'd like
to be a better person. I'd like to do this,
I'd like to do that, you know, having some ambition
and also being content right where you are with what
you have. And I'm just interested in your thoughts on
how you how you work through striking that balance. Well,
I think you have to ask yourself the question why
(11:33):
do you want to be a better person? It sounds like,
you know, ironic and a bit but now, but like
why is it to impress your God? Is it to
make more money? Is it some guilt programming that you
got from your parents or your church? Um? Is it
part of being cool and your self help in your
new age circle. Are you like to really just polishing
(11:55):
your halo? I've always loved that phrase. Or do you
feel better when you're a better person? Do you feel
more expanded and more loving and sex here and more
flexible and more intelligent and let more in touch with
life and your version of God when you're doing your
(12:16):
version of being a better person. So like two very
different motivations. Yeah, I agree, And I think for me,
all that stuff has gotten to a point where I
do most of it simply as a way to feel better.
It does make me feel better, I mean exercise. I
say this on the show all time. I'm sure people
are perhaps tired of hearing it, but it's not about
how I look anymore. That's a side benefit. It's not
(12:39):
so much that I'll die in twenty years versus fifteen.
It's really like for my day to day mental health
and meditation kind of falls into the same boat, and
eating right falls into the same boat. They're all things
that relieve suffering in my life, relieve suffering and creates
(12:59):
Joe at the same time, Like it's there's a tipping point.
It's a tipping point. I think if you do it
for the right reasons. Right, here's a question I've got
for you. Because a lot of us are driven to
spiritual practice and things like meditation and yoga and eating
well and all those different things because we are in pain.
That's where a lot of this starts. And what I've
(13:20):
seen with a lot of people is that once the
pain goes away, so does the desire to do some
of these things. How how have you worked with people
through that, you know, once they kind of have moved
from being in pain and not sort of settling back
into okay, everything's okay. Now, Well, I think everybody does
that to some degree. You're going to slip off track,
(13:41):
and getting off track is part of deepening your devotion.
It's like I didn't meditate this week. I don't feel
as useful, I'm not thinking as clearly. Okay, I'm gonna
at least get three days in this week or five
days or whatever. So I have a lot more compassion
for myself when I get off track. I think, you know,
(14:04):
what you're talking about can be laziness, you know, it
can like sometimes we just need to call ourselves on it.
Like you know, my current question right now, I'm about
to do big speaking big this weekend. Um to people
who you know they self identify as like high achievers,
and I really want to put it to them and say, like, really,
come on, how devoted are we? Because personally, I'm really
(14:26):
interested in going the distance. I think it's not enough
to kind of be on the self help path or
to kind of be kind like with the current state
of the world and psychology for for most of us,
I mean personally, as someone who considers themselves, Um, it's
not enough for me to just be a good person.
(14:47):
I have to be engaged. It's not enough for me
to just donate a little bit of money here and there.
I've got to bake philanthropy into my business model. It's
not enough for me to just quietly meditate. I need
to be vocal a about what I think is ideal,
you know, an ideal society to live in, Like I
gotta go to distance. So we take a few steps
(15:08):
forward with our practice, we eat right, and then we
go back to sleep. I think you know, commit comme in.
I think that's like were where some tough love comes in,
Like are you in or not? And let me tell you,
devotion is not easy, but it's worth it. And it's
just like you know, your relationship with spirit, it's not
(15:32):
a cakewalk, and this is part of it. It's it's
like your relationship with anything, any person. The rough parts
requires commitment and seeing it through and being flexible. And
I think this is part of the dogma, the bill
of goods that we've been getting for a long time
from the New Age, which is once you're on the
(15:54):
path and you learn how to follow your intuition and
you really really eyes that you're one with humanity, then
there's this grace and there's this flow that comes into
your life. Well, I can tell you I'm on the path.
I'm very devoted to the path. I'm devoted to teaching
by the path, and that has not been my experience.
(16:16):
There is a there is a lot of grind. I
still have extreme stuff, you know, well extreme is an
extreme way of putting. But I still suffer very deeply.
I still have intense struggles in my life. But I'm
not going to get off the path because I have
deeper love, I have deeper fulfillment. Easy, no worth it. Yes,
(17:09):
And here's the rest of the interview with Daniel Apport.
I think we are all looking for that silver bullet,
and then suddenly life will just be easy, Like I'll
find the right way to meditate, or I'll read the
right book, or I'll follow this correct practice, or I'll
find this new exercise, and suddenly life will always be easy.
And that's just not the way it works. You used
(17:32):
a word in their suffering, and in your book you
talk about making a distinction between pain and suffering. This
is a bit of an extreme statement, but it's really
worth considering for like mental clarity. I think that often
suffering as a choice. Um, you know, suffering is optional.
Pain not always optional. So it's like a physical example,
(17:56):
you break a bone, you feel pain, it's inevitable. The
suffering is what comes after, Like you know, it's it's
a drag that you can't walk, It's a drag that
you have to take, the medicine whatever you're incapacity. You
go through a breakup, the pain is the breakup itself, separation.
(18:19):
The suffering is how long are you going to hold on?
How bitter are you going to be? How long does
it take you to get over it? Um, are you
choosing to forgive or you're not choosing to forgive? I mean,
I got lots to say about not choosing to forgive
and why sometimes that's actually an enlightened approach. So yeah,
(18:40):
I think suffering is something that you have control over,
that a lot of us have control over. And I
don't want to broad brush stroke this and say, you know,
someone who's in Syria right now has no choice over
their suffering. That's an extreme situation. And no, you know,
self help, how to is gonna help you get through that? Necessarily.
(19:04):
I agree with the pain is happens. Life delivers pain.
It's just it's a it's a very effective pain delivery mechanism,
I suppose you could say, but it is skign of
what are the stories we tell ourselves? And a lot
of times for me, I've started just thinking about it
from a perspective of how do I just not make
it worse? Like life has given me this thing? How
(19:26):
can I just not pile on more pain? With everything
I'm telling myself? You know, I tell the parable of
the second arrow all the time, you know how the
first arrow is kind of that life you get shot,
the pain you get, and then the second arrow is
everything we add on top of it. And it's it's
so true and then you know, there comes the third arrow,
which is I'm feeling bad about myself because I'm not
(19:48):
able to not suffer over it, and and on and
on it goes. Lightening up can help a lot. Yeah, yeah, not.
Alan Watts says, there will always be suffering. The trick
is to not suffer over the suffering, to stay out
of that. Why me, It's just like, this is what's happening.
Sometimes you don't even need to solve it. It doesn't
(20:09):
need to be your karma. You don't even have to
look at why you created it. Just do what you
have to do to not make it worse and get
through it. Yeah. Speaking of other great minds, you quote
Martin Bouber in the book with I'm assuming I think
that's how you say it. Um. Yeah, but I love
this phrase and it says the world is not comprehensible,
(20:30):
but it is embraceable. Yeah. Isn't that great? He's so lovely? Yeah? Yeah,
what's that mean to you? You got to leave lots
of room for mystery, you know, our human capacities, And
I kind of I put that in quotes because you know,
I think we're spiritual beings who have crammed ourselves into
these little suitcases called bodies and made a lot of
choices to forget our divinity in order to have these experiences.
(20:53):
So are we capable of comprehending the greatness of life
and how it all works? No? I think, you know,
when you get to a certain point of comprehension, you
don't need to You definitely do not need to be
on this dimension anymore. But you can really be intentionally
on this ride. Like you know, a lot of my
(21:14):
friends and I this past week had been talking about
all the suffering that's happening on the planet, and you know,
we're really having practical conversations. I'm about to have some
friends over for dinner in the next couple of weeks
talk about earthquake preparedness. We're really feeling heartbroken over what's
happening politically with immigration and children in the US, and like,
(21:35):
what can we do? And can I produce more meditations
that go up on my website? How would I raise
my mind? And when I really go down that rabbit
hole of where the world is at at least you
know the dark side of it. You know, I worry
about my grandchildren, I worry about my kid. I have
a son, and is he going to be able to
(21:56):
breathe clean air. I mean, there's so many different directions
that could go. And in terms of like bad directions,
here's what's getting my friends and I through right now.
We just go We signed up for this, We chose
to be born to incarnate at this time. I've got
something to learn. And if I don't have much to learn,
(22:17):
which I think you know is unlikely, at least I've
got a lot to offer. And I'm here. I'm here
now in this time of history, human history for a reason.
So I'm going to embrace it. I'm gonna embrace it.
And on the quote unquote spiritual path, which I think
too often is about ascension, I'm going to embrace being human.
(22:40):
I'm going to love food. I'm going to love all
the sensual things that come with being human, from food
to rock and roll to like, you know, great holidays
and a man. And I'm going to do my esoteric
work at the same time. I mean, I'm really interested
in heaven on earth. You know. Well, I looked up
(23:01):
that quote after I read it in your book, and
it goes on to say it's embrace able by embracing
the things that are in it. You know, by embracing
the things in the world is how it becomes embraceable
to us. And I just I loved that when I
read it, and I think it gets to what you
were just saying. It's about being here to to what's
actually in the world. Trying to figure it out is
(23:23):
nearly impossible, but we can certainly engage with it in
a real and meaningful way. Well, you went deeper with
it than I did. Thank you. One of your favorite
quotes I've ever seen of years, and I won't get
it right, but it's has something to say, something along
the lines of line on the floor and listening to
loud rock and roll maybe the only therapy you need
and usually is. And you know, my recommendation is to
(23:49):
listen to UM Jim Morrison's American Prayer. That was like
the first time I just use music as they're like
just like in the dark and he's in a studio
totally wasted, just reciting his poetry UM shortly before he died,
(24:10):
and then the remaining doors the band it took those
tracks and put it to music. Anyway you gotta do it. Yeah, Well,
my partner Chris here is giving you the thumbs up
sign for that one for sure, for sure. So yeah, no,
I'm I am a strong believer that music is definitely
healing in so many different ways. I would be lost
(24:32):
without it. I think, yeah, me too, me too. You
call something the sacred paradox, and you say transformation begins
with the radical acceptance of what is, yes, and you
know what that is some of Christian Marty's thinking and
and mine. I'll give myself a little bit of credit
for that, where you can't really see something until you
(24:53):
fully accept it. And I think what a lot of
us do to try and get out of pain, like
completely understandable response to pay is we go into nile
that it's not happening, like this job doesn't suck, this
marriage isn't shitty, and we just keep trucking along. Or
we go into solution mode of you know, we see
(25:17):
that something stucking, like how are we going to get
out of this? How can I come up with the money.
I don't see a way through. We can't solve it.
Just stop, just stop and accept that it's happening as
awful as whatever it is is. And then usually with
that presence and that absence of being frantic. Then you
(25:39):
can take a really clear next step you can make
you know the next right decision. As Oprah puts it,
that's my favorite favorite of hers. Right now the next
or the next best decision. And it's really hard to
do because you have to suspend wanting to fix it
and you have to just be in it, not knowing
(25:59):
how you're going to get out of it, Like you know,
this marriage is brutal. Pause and then you figure out
what you're gonna do about it. Yeah, I love that
that Oprah phrase. I've been in in twelve Step Recovery,
and I think the phrase I heard was very early
on was just do the next right thing, And that
was so helpful in just like one foot in front
of the other, what's the next right thing to do
(26:21):
right now? And you keep doing enough of those and
you end up with good things happening. Also in the book,
you talk about painting over pain with premature positivity and
short circuiting the healing process, which is what you were
just talking about. And you've got a phrase that I love.
I think a lot of people have heard the phrase
spiritual bypass, but you've got a got a great phrase
where you talk about putting spiritual sweetener on it, well,
(26:44):
spiritual bypassing. You know, I hope, I hope that this
concept like really rises to the front of the self
help space. I mean, this is really what the White
Hot Shooth book is about. It's things like something negative
happened to me, the shitty thing went down. But you
know what, I'm so grateful that has happened, because I
(27:07):
should be grateful. Shouldn't be grateful. That's a spiritual New
Age enlightened thing to do. And I learned so much
from this. Oh that may be true, but before we
get there, it would be a really good idea if
we felt maybe angry, if we felt disappointed, despair, um,
(27:28):
piste off, you know, just all of those really human,
justifiable things, because that's what's real. And when we skip
over those real human emotions and then move straight to
the you know, the more quote unquote spiritual approach, that
stuff just festers. And what happens is, you know, the
(27:50):
same person who piste you off a year ago, you know,
a year after you've been repressing it. Then you have
some fantastic passive, aggressive interaction with them, and they're just like,
where is this coming from? And you realize you've actually
secretly been holding your your grudge against them for quite
a long time, or it comes out in other ways.
(28:10):
I mean, what's repressed, we'll find a way to sneak out. Also,
if we're not feeling our anger, it disables us from
creating justice and creating change. It's like, there's a lot
of reasons to be very angry about things that are
happening in our political system, and that anger is clarifying.
(28:30):
That anger, you know, helps you stand up straight and
use your voice and create change. And there are many
occasions where it's just not the time to say, well,
you know, this is karma unfolding. We're all learning something
that's that's bullshit passivity. H I agree with you that
(29:19):
what we repress ends up showing up. And it's funny
you were mentioning anger and passive aggressiveness, and I was
just thinking about that earlier today. I was looking at
a situation and in some of the other work that
I do, and I was like, I'm being passive aggressive
to that person because I've not said what I'm frustrated about.
And it was I was all of a sudden like,
oh yeah, and that's not that's not a good that's
(29:41):
not being a good leader. Anger is the one that
I struggled with. I've gotten pretty good at being sad
and allowing sadness to occur and and flow through me
and not afraid of that. But I think anger is
the one for me. How about you? Is there one
that you still are more inclined to run from? That's
a great question. I think mine is disappointment. And instead
(30:03):
of just like being with the disappointment, like I got
let down, I let myself down. That's that's where I'll
spiritual bypassing on just be like, well, everybody's trying their
best and I'm so capable. I can do it. I'll
take care of it. And I shouldn't have asked for
that much or I should have tried harder, and it's
(30:24):
really not cool as a leader. I mean, just to
like get deeper into this. For me, it's a personality thing.
It's an angiogram thing, So like on the innogram, I'm
for you don't even need to know how the anagram works.
But what I'll tell you is that my weakness is
that I'll just do it myself. It's actually not a strength.
(30:46):
And so when I'm disappointed. That's the default I go into,
I'll just do it myself, and that that's not it's
not cool because then I get well, I get overworked,
and it also doesn't allow people to rise to to
improve rise to the occasion. Then this is part of
the spiritual bypass. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings
as much of a take no ship kind of person
(31:08):
that I am, and just like, well, you know, and
I'm way better, way better in the last two years
at it than I used to be. I used to
let things just go completely, and now I'm just like,
you know what, Sorry, you gotta redo it. Yep. Well,
I'm in nine on the indiogram, so I think that's peacemaker.
(31:29):
So I wrestled with the same same challenge and I
get better at it when I'm really focused on it.
And I guess this goes back to what I was
saying earlier. I get I focus on it, I get better,
and then I sort of slide back into my old
habits again, and and then I, like I was saying today,
I was realizing, like, Okay, I need to re engage
with this as be more conscious about what I'm doing here.
(31:52):
Because listen, you nines would rut, you would do anything
other than express anger. You might, you might evolved at
the point whe're like, it's I'm okay feeling it, but
to actually confront somebody, it's really I feel your pain.
I have a friend, one of my best friends, is
in nine, and I'm just like, you know, sweetheart, you
(32:13):
just tell me, tell me what you would tell him.
She's like God, and she gets it. I'm like, okay, now,
just give him ten percent of that and you will
be making progress forward. Yet, Chris just said, should I
send her a picture of the black eye I gave
him last week? As if I got mad enough to
hit him? No that I can't imagine what he could
possibly ever do that would provoke me to to that.
(32:35):
But yeah, and is a nine. As a peacemaker. I
keep trying to remind myself that not saying what's going
on and just stuffing it is not making peace. It
seems like it, but in a deeper sense, it's just not.
And and I've learned that often enough in life that
you'd think i'd have it by now, but I keep
learning it. Yeah. Well, I mean, we're all just it's
(32:57):
all a big repeat, but you know one thing that
might be helpful. Can I just give you some therapy
for a second, please. It's more creative to speak it.
I mean, I think you can totally identify, like you
want to create your reality. You want to be an intentional,
a deliberate creator. And if you can express your anger,
you're you're you're making an awesome life. You're creating more precisely, Yeah, yeah,
(33:22):
I think that is is great feedback a lot of
what I wrestle with. And you had a line in
your book about this, which was, you know, if your
heart is just genuinely you're sort of that easy going
and good natured um, that's great versus if you're repressing
all that stuff or you're not saying all that stuff
because if you're afraid or you don't want to cause conflict.
And and I sometimes don't know that I can tell,
(33:45):
right because I am fairly laid back about stuff, like
I'm kind of like, okay, whatever, But I don't know
how much of that is sort of the unconscious habit
over all these years of being that way. And so
I'm really trying to look more closely at like what's
going on underneath the surface. My initial reaction is to say, Oh,
everything's fine, but what's really happening underneath that? And and recognize.
(34:09):
And I usually can tell, like I said, because I
start to become slightly passive aggressive without really even knowing it.
I just noticed that I'm irritated with the person, and
then I'm like, why am I irritated with the person?
I'm like, oh, because that thing that they did that
I didn't think mattered two weeks ago, you know, blah
blah blah. So for me, my body always knows when
I'm angry. I mean, there's lots of reasons I could
(34:31):
get angry, but when I'm in that mode of like, okay,
that's healthy. But if I feel that fire and I
don't express it somehow, then I pay I pay for it. Yep. Well,
it's that idea of how for most of us are
best trait can also be our biggest weakness if we
don't deal with it. Right. So, another idea that you
(34:54):
had in the book, and I really liked it, was
you said that the more you can expose yourself to
conflicting dogmas, the better off you are. And that seems
to be something that a lot of people in the
world today are simply not willing to do um is
to explore anyone else's perspective on things. So why does
(35:14):
that help us? Because I think we do have more
common than we have differences, and when we realize that,
there's significantly less conflict, because that's how you become a
more loving person. Being able to entertain other perspectives helps
I mean, it helps you see what you're dealing. Was like,
it's good to know who else is on the planet
(35:36):
and to know, you know, the extent of there's a
lot of density, and there's a lot of darkness, and
there's a lot of hatred. It's good to know that.
And also to know that the light and the love
and the humanity that is living next door to you
and teaching your kids um and and running your communities.
(35:57):
So there's that, There's just like general awareness and just
expand expanding your perspective. Expansion is always better than constriction.
I think the healing is there in that dialogue. I've
been talking a bit about thinking a lot about this
of the last you know, the summer, basically the last
(36:20):
couple of months. I don't know when this is going
to air, but you know, with a lot of strife
that's happening in terms of racism and immigration, and I
mean mostly in the US, but we certainly have a
problems in Canada as well. And I'm thinking about what
would the effect be if I had some one on
one conversations with people who identified as being racist, and
(36:43):
what would happen if we had town hall meetings and
really sought to understand each other. And I think we'd
find out that a lot of people who um spew
hatred are deeply wounded. Doesn't mean there shouldn't be justice,
doesn't doesn't astify it at all, right, but it helps
(37:03):
us understand because what I'm seeing is, you know, I'm
not quite comfortable with the kind of protesting that's happening
right now. Like I'm about to go to the Women's March,
I'm not going to be comfortable marching and screaming. It's
about who I am. So my way of protesting is, well,
(37:25):
it's more peaceful. Yeah, I agree. I am very concerned
about a lot of the politics that we see and
what's happening. I'm almost equally as concerned by how we
are treating each other. Um. You you reference Parker J.
Palmer in your book, and he's got so many wise
things to stay on this topic that that I just
(37:46):
think he's he's got so many great ideas. Yeah, he's
brilliant and he I mean, I mean talk about somebody
who's face they're suffering. He's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, Well, Danielle,
thank you so much for taking the time to come on.
The book, as I said, was called hot Truth, and
I really enjoyed reading it. I like reading all of
your stuff, and I appreciate you being willing to come
on yet another time. Eric. Thank you for being so
(38:11):
thorough and for really I have to say, you know,
I've done a lot of I've had a lot of
conversations about this book, and you really got to subtle stuff.
So this was like a total pleasure. I'm really grateful.
Thank you, Thank you, take care to okay bye. If
(38:44):
what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider
making a donation to the one you Feed podcast. Head
over to one you Feed dot net slash support
I think we do have more common than we have differences,
and when we realize that there's significantly less conflict, Welcome
to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have
recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like
(00:22):
garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think
ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,
or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
what we do. We think things that hold us back
and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
(00:44):
Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,
how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us.
(01:12):
Our guest on this episode is Danielle Laporte, a speaker, poet, painter,
and former business strategist and Washington d C Think tank executive.
Danielle is also an invited member of Oprah Winfrey's Super
Soul One. She is the author of many books, including
her new one White Hot Truth Clarity for Keeping It
Real on your spiritual path from one seeker to another.
(01:35):
If you're getting value out of the show, please go
to one you feed dot Net slash Support and make
a donation. This will ensure that all five episodes that
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(01:56):
go to one you feed dot net and find the
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(02:17):
And finally, one you feed dot net slash Facebook, which
is where our Facebook group is and you can interact
with other listeners of the show and get support in
feeding your Good Wolf. Thanks again for listening, and here's
the interview with Danielle Report. Hi Danielle, Welcome to the show.
Hi everybody. I'm very happy to have you on. As
(02:38):
we were talking about before we got started, I recorded
an interview with you. It was quite some time ago,
and it it was the first time I ever tried to
record an interview without Chris, my partner with me, and
I blew it and so we've never been able to
air it. So I'm very excited to have you back
and get to have this conversation again. I didn't know
it was the first time you tried to record it solo.
(03:00):
Here we are. Yeah, I happened to be out of
town and I've got it all down now. I've got
to figured out, but I didn't then. So what you
learn learn as you go. So um, your latest book
is called White Hot Truth Clarity for Keeping it Real
on your spiritual Path from one seeker to another. And
we'll get into that book in just a minute, but
let's start like we normally do, with a parable. There's
(03:22):
a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life,
there are two wolves inside of us that are always
at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things
like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is
a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred
and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about
it for a second, and he looks up at his
grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And
(03:46):
the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like
to start off by asking you what that parable means
to you in your life and in the work that
you do. That parable Always choose I think you know,
the most important word in all of this is truth.
But always choose generosity. I feed my capacity to be generous. Yeah,
(04:10):
there's a line that's in your book, and it was
in one of your previous books too. You've got this
idea of in the latest book. You call it reframing
your obligations into conscious choices. Can you talk about that
because that is so important to me in my life. Well,
I think you know, this is part of getting in
the driver's seat of your life and really being an
(04:32):
intentional creator and completely washing out any victim mentality out
of your consciousness. You know, the worst extreme is that
that kind of robotic, unconscious way of living. I have
a really long list of obligations, all these things that
we think we need to do, and in that approach,
(04:55):
there's a lack of choice, there's a woo. So what
was me there? There's a you know, life is happening
to you and I don't think it happens that way
at all. Or you can choose. You can choose that
other that positive wealth doesn't happen to happen the way.
So to push most people's thinking on this, the push
back would be, well, what about feeding my kids? That's
(05:18):
an obligation. What about taking care of my ailing aging
parents that's an obligation. What about my mortgage? I gotta
pay my mortgage. You actually don't have to do any
of those things. You could choose to be unethical, you
could choose to be careless, you could you choose to
be lawless, but you're still making a conscious choice to
be a good son or daughter and a loving parent
(05:42):
and uh, you know, a responsible mortgage holder. So you know,
when you frame everything as a choice, you're empowered. It's
a completely different energetic approach to things. Yeah, I agree.
I have that aim kind of conversation with myself and
with other people, which is like, no, you don't have
(06:04):
to do that thing that you just said you have
to do. I mean you you don't. You could get
on a bus tomorrow and hide in California and live
on the streets if you wanted to, Like, you've got
lots of options. And whenever I remember that, it is
so helpful to me to get me out of that
like you said, the woe is me, or I have
to do this, I have to do that. It just
it opens me up so much to realizing that I am,
(06:28):
you know, the author of my own life to some degree.
And I heard you somewhere recently, and I don't know
where I heard it, but you were making this list
of all the things in our lives. We choose. We
choose what we eat for dinner, we choose what dishes
we put in our cabinet, we choose what you know,
what art goes on our walls or on our desk,
and and that how we are making so many choices
in life, and that being artistic and creative is really
(06:50):
about making choices, and we can bring that artistic or
creative spirit into everything that we do. You know, what
I think is really key about what you said about
the choices and the obligations is there's a lot of
different choices that we can make. So when you move
out of that the weight I mean even saying the
word obligation. It's just such a heavy crap word. You know.
(07:12):
When you move out of the weight of that and
you're still feeling resentment, I mean, there's lots of stuff
to resent. There's lots of stuff that is not fun
to do in life that you're still choosing to do.
You can start to make different choices under that commitment
you're making. So it's like, yeah, I'm taking care of
my aging parents and it's heavy duty. But you know,
(07:34):
if I move more into the power of choice, and
maybe I could get someone to take a shift for me.
Maybe I could ask for some of my inheritance money
now to cover the bills. Maybe you know what, maybe
they don't need as much attention and care as I thought.
And I'm just doing this at a guilt and I
can lay off and I can have a vacation. So
(07:56):
there's this loosening when you loosen up on the weight
of obligation, and then your creativity starts to flow. It
gets lighter, exactly. So I want to circle back. This
leads us right into one of the topics I had,
which was, you know, a theme early in the book
and really through a lot of the book, you say
that my spiritual path had become another to do list.
(08:17):
So in this case, you know, we were just talking
about obligations, and a lot of us turn the spiritual
path into yet another obligation. Well, I think in this
case it's more about it being another thing to achieve,
So then it becomes an obligation. I'm going to be
a better person, I'm going to be more giving, I'm
going to be in better shape, I'm going to be
(08:37):
more healthy, i'm going to be more evolved, I'm going
to think more clearly. And with that achievement intention, then
there's so many things you can put on your to
do list. It's another workshop. It's having to meditate, it's
having to pray, it's a new wellness regime. It's all
sorts of two does. And I shudos are great if
(09:02):
they're getting you somewhere that's more fulfilling, if you like,
you're really feeling expanded, and ideally you know, your teats
are awesome. They go from good to great if you're
experiencing some joy on the whale to expanding. It's like
there's many times there's many parts of my quote unquote
(09:25):
spiritual practice that aren't easy and they require some discipline,
and you know, I I meditate on a regular basis,
and it's not always fun. Working my day around that.
I have to get up earlier. I gotta make my
kids lunch at night so I can have my fifteen
(09:46):
minutes to my happen or whatever it is in the
morning to sit and do my thing. I still struggle
with feeling like I'm not up to my commitment as
a planetary citizen if I didn't sit that morning and
send some light to the world, or pray for you know,
victims of the hurricane, or do whatever I think I
need to do that day. Um, I don't feel like
(10:08):
anybody's keeping score anymore. I'm free to choose the practice
that works for me. And that's what's changed for me.
It's like I am choosing joy inducing practices. The yoga
that works for me. It's not the hardcore hot yoga.
It's really chill stuff. The exercise that works for me.
(10:30):
It doesn't have to be every day a week, just
three days a week is cool. You know. The kind
of meditation that works for me. It turns out I
go out of my mind if I sit for a
long periods of time and watch my in breath and
watch my out breath and try to empty my mind.
It's not how I'm wired. I choose something that fits
my personality, that fills me up. It's a big difference,
(10:51):
way more fulfilling to be devoted when the practice itself
has some delight to it. Yeah, I agree completely. And
in the book you're talking about the striking the balance
between you say, sincere spiritual aspiration versus the compulsion to
change ourselves. One of the central themes of this show
that I'm asking all the time is that, like, how
(11:13):
do we balance that idea of you know, I'd like
to be a better person. I'd like to do this,
I'd like to do that, you know, having some ambition
and also being content right where you are with what
you have. And I'm just interested in your thoughts on
how you how you work through striking that balance. Well,
I think you have to ask yourself the question why
(11:33):
do you want to be a better person? It sounds like,
you know, ironic and a bit but now, but like
why is it to impress your God? Is it to
make more money? Is it some guilt programming that you
got from your parents or your church? Um? Is it
part of being cool and your self help in your
new age circle. Are you like to really just polishing
(11:55):
your halo? I've always loved that phrase. Or do you
feel better when you're a better person? Do you feel
more expanded and more loving and sex here and more
flexible and more intelligent and let more in touch with
life and your version of God when you're doing your
(12:16):
version of being a better person. So like two very
different motivations. Yeah, I agree, And I think for me,
all that stuff has gotten to a point where I
do most of it simply as a way to feel better.
It does make me feel better, I mean exercise. I
say this on the show all time. I'm sure people
are perhaps tired of hearing it, but it's not about
how I look anymore. That's a side benefit. It's not
(12:39):
so much that I'll die in twenty years versus fifteen.
It's really like for my day to day mental health
and meditation kind of falls into the same boat, and
eating right falls into the same boat. They're all things
that relieve suffering in my life, relieve suffering and creates
(12:59):
Joe at the same time, Like it's there's a tipping point.
It's a tipping point. I think if you do it
for the right reasons. Right, here's a question I've got
for you. Because a lot of us are driven to
spiritual practice and things like meditation and yoga and eating
well and all those different things because we are in pain.
That's where a lot of this starts. And what I've
(13:20):
seen with a lot of people is that once the
pain goes away, so does the desire to do some
of these things. How how have you worked with people
through that, you know, once they kind of have moved
from being in pain and not sort of settling back
into okay, everything's okay. Now, Well, I think everybody does
that to some degree. You're going to slip off track,
(13:41):
and getting off track is part of deepening your devotion.
It's like I didn't meditate this week. I don't feel
as useful, I'm not thinking as clearly. Okay, I'm gonna
at least get three days in this week or five
days or whatever. So I have a lot more compassion
for myself when I get off track. I think, you know,
(14:04):
what you're talking about can be laziness, you know, it
can like sometimes we just need to call ourselves on it.
Like you know, my current question right now, I'm about
to do big speaking big this weekend. Um to people
who you know they self identify as like high achievers,
and I really want to put it to them and say, like, really,
come on, how devoted are we? Because personally, I'm really
(14:26):
interested in going the distance. I think it's not enough
to kind of be on the self help path or
to kind of be kind like with the current state
of the world and psychology for for most of us,
I mean personally, as someone who considers themselves, Um, it's
not enough for me to just be a good person.
(14:47):
I have to be engaged. It's not enough for me
to just donate a little bit of money here and there.
I've got to bake philanthropy into my business model. It's
not enough for me to just quietly meditate. I need
to be vocal a about what I think is ideal,
you know, an ideal society to live in, Like I
gotta go to distance. So we take a few steps
(15:08):
forward with our practice, we eat right, and then we
go back to sleep. I think you know, commit comme in.
I think that's like were where some tough love comes in,
Like are you in or not? And let me tell you,
devotion is not easy, but it's worth it. And it's
just like you know, your relationship with spirit, it's not
(15:32):
a cakewalk, and this is part of it. It's it's
like your relationship with anything, any person. The rough parts
requires commitment and seeing it through and being flexible. And
I think this is part of the dogma, the bill
of goods that we've been getting for a long time
from the New Age, which is once you're on the
(15:54):
path and you learn how to follow your intuition and
you really really eyes that you're one with humanity, then
there's this grace and there's this flow that comes into
your life. Well, I can tell you I'm on the path.
I'm very devoted to the path. I'm devoted to teaching
by the path, and that has not been my experience.
(16:16):
There is a there is a lot of grind. I
still have extreme stuff, you know, well extreme is an
extreme way of putting. But I still suffer very deeply.
I still have intense struggles in my life. But I'm
not going to get off the path because I have
deeper love, I have deeper fulfillment. Easy, no worth it. Yes,
(17:09):
And here's the rest of the interview with Daniel Apport.
I think we are all looking for that silver bullet,
and then suddenly life will just be easy, Like I'll
find the right way to meditate, or I'll read the
right book, or I'll follow this correct practice, or I'll
find this new exercise, and suddenly life will always be easy.
And that's just not the way it works. You used
(17:32):
a word in their suffering, and in your book you
talk about making a distinction between pain and suffering. This
is a bit of an extreme statement, but it's really
worth considering for like mental clarity. I think that often
suffering as a choice. Um, you know, suffering is optional.
Pain not always optional. So it's like a physical example,
(17:56):
you break a bone, you feel pain, it's inevitable. The
suffering is what comes after, Like you know, it's it's
a drag that you can't walk, It's a drag that
you have to take, the medicine whatever you're incapacity. You
go through a breakup, the pain is the breakup itself, separation.
(18:19):
The suffering is how long are you going to hold on?
How bitter are you going to be? How long does
it take you to get over it? Um, are you
choosing to forgive or you're not choosing to forgive? I mean,
I got lots to say about not choosing to forgive
and why sometimes that's actually an enlightened approach. So yeah,
(18:40):
I think suffering is something that you have control over,
that a lot of us have control over. And I
don't want to broad brush stroke this and say, you know,
someone who's in Syria right now has no choice over
their suffering. That's an extreme situation. And no, you know,
self help, how to is gonna help you get through that? Necessarily.
(19:04):
I agree with the pain is happens. Life delivers pain.
It's just it's a it's a very effective pain delivery mechanism,
I suppose you could say, but it is skign of
what are the stories we tell ourselves? And a lot
of times for me, I've started just thinking about it
from a perspective of how do I just not make
it worse? Like life has given me this thing? How
(19:26):
can I just not pile on more pain? With everything
I'm telling myself? You know, I tell the parable of
the second arrow all the time, you know how the
first arrow is kind of that life you get shot,
the pain you get, and then the second arrow is
everything we add on top of it. And it's it's
so true and then you know, there comes the third arrow,
which is I'm feeling bad about myself because I'm not
(19:48):
able to not suffer over it, and and on and
on it goes. Lightening up can help a lot. Yeah, yeah, not.
Alan Watts says, there will always be suffering. The trick
is to not suffer over the suffering, to stay out
of that. Why me, It's just like, this is what's happening.
Sometimes you don't even need to solve it. It doesn't
(20:09):
need to be your karma. You don't even have to
look at why you created it. Just do what you
have to do to not make it worse and get
through it. Yeah. Speaking of other great minds, you quote
Martin Bouber in the book with I'm assuming I think
that's how you say it. Um. Yeah, but I love
this phrase and it says the world is not comprehensible,
(20:30):
but it is embraceable. Yeah. Isn't that great? He's so lovely? Yeah? Yeah,
what's that mean to you? You got to leave lots
of room for mystery, you know, our human capacities, And
I kind of I put that in quotes because you know,
I think we're spiritual beings who have crammed ourselves into
these little suitcases called bodies and made a lot of
choices to forget our divinity in order to have these experiences.
(20:53):
So are we capable of comprehending the greatness of life
and how it all works? No? I think, you know,
when you get to a certain point of comprehension, you
don't need to You definitely do not need to be
on this dimension anymore. But you can really be intentionally
on this ride. Like you know, a lot of my
(21:14):
friends and I this past week had been talking about
all the suffering that's happening on the planet, and you know,
we're really having practical conversations. I'm about to have some
friends over for dinner in the next couple of weeks
talk about earthquake preparedness. We're really feeling heartbroken over what's
happening politically with immigration and children in the US, and like,
(21:35):
what can we do? And can I produce more meditations
that go up on my website? How would I raise
my mind? And when I really go down that rabbit
hole of where the world is at at least you
know the dark side of it. You know, I worry
about my grandchildren, I worry about my kid. I have
a son, and is he going to be able to
(21:56):
breathe clean air. I mean, there's so many different directions
that could go. And in terms of like bad directions,
here's what's getting my friends and I through right now.
We just go We signed up for this, We chose
to be born to incarnate at this time. I've got
something to learn. And if I don't have much to learn,
(22:17):
which I think you know is unlikely, at least I've
got a lot to offer. And I'm here. I'm here
now in this time of history, human history for a reason.
So I'm going to embrace it. I'm gonna embrace it.
And on the quote unquote spiritual path, which I think
too often is about ascension, I'm going to embrace being human.
(22:40):
I'm going to love food. I'm going to love all
the sensual things that come with being human, from food
to rock and roll to like, you know, great holidays
and a man. And I'm going to do my esoteric
work at the same time. I mean, I'm really interested
in heaven on earth. You know. Well, I looked up
(23:01):
that quote after I read it in your book, and
it goes on to say it's embrace able by embracing
the things that are in it. You know, by embracing
the things in the world is how it becomes embraceable
to us. And I just I loved that when I
read it, and I think it gets to what you
were just saying. It's about being here to to what's
actually in the world. Trying to figure it out is
(23:23):
nearly impossible, but we can certainly engage with it in
a real and meaningful way. Well, you went deeper with
it than I did. Thank you. One of your favorite
quotes I've ever seen of years, and I won't get
it right, but it's has something to say, something along
the lines of line on the floor and listening to
loud rock and roll maybe the only therapy you need
and usually is. And you know, my recommendation is to
(23:49):
listen to UM Jim Morrison's American Prayer. That was like
the first time I just use music as they're like
just like in the dark and he's in a studio
totally wasted, just reciting his poetry UM shortly before he died,
(24:10):
and then the remaining doors the band it took those
tracks and put it to music. Anyway you gotta do it. Yeah, Well,
my partner Chris here is giving you the thumbs up
sign for that one for sure, for sure. So yeah, no,
I'm I am a strong believer that music is definitely
healing in so many different ways. I would be lost
(24:32):
without it. I think, yeah, me too, me too. You
call something the sacred paradox, and you say transformation begins
with the radical acceptance of what is, yes, and you
know what that is some of Christian Marty's thinking and
and mine. I'll give myself a little bit of credit
for that, where you can't really see something until you
(24:53):
fully accept it. And I think what a lot of
us do to try and get out of pain, like
completely understandable response to pay is we go into nile
that it's not happening, like this job doesn't suck, this
marriage isn't shitty, and we just keep trucking along. Or
we go into solution mode of you know, we see
(25:17):
that something stucking, like how are we going to get
out of this? How can I come up with the money.
I don't see a way through. We can't solve it.
Just stop, just stop and accept that it's happening as
awful as whatever it is is. And then usually with
that presence and that absence of being frantic. Then you
(25:39):
can take a really clear next step you can make
you know the next right decision. As Oprah puts it,
that's my favorite favorite of hers. Right now the next
or the next best decision. And it's really hard to
do because you have to suspend wanting to fix it
and you have to just be in it, not knowing
(25:59):
how you're going to get out of it, Like you know,
this marriage is brutal. Pause and then you figure out
what you're gonna do about it. Yeah, I love that
that Oprah phrase. I've been in in twelve Step Recovery,
and I think the phrase I heard was very early
on was just do the next right thing, And that
was so helpful in just like one foot in front
of the other, what's the next right thing to do
(26:21):
right now? And you keep doing enough of those and
you end up with good things happening. Also in the book,
you talk about painting over pain with premature positivity and
short circuiting the healing process, which is what you were
just talking about. And you've got a phrase that I love.
I think a lot of people have heard the phrase
spiritual bypass, but you've got a got a great phrase
where you talk about putting spiritual sweetener on it, well,
(26:44):
spiritual bypassing. You know, I hope, I hope that this
concept like really rises to the front of the self
help space. I mean, this is really what the White
Hot Shooth book is about. It's things like something negative
happened to me, the shitty thing went down. But you
know what, I'm so grateful that has happened, because I
(27:07):
should be grateful. Shouldn't be grateful. That's a spiritual New
Age enlightened thing to do. And I learned so much
from this. Oh that may be true, but before we
get there, it would be a really good idea if
we felt maybe angry, if we felt disappointed, despair, um,
(27:28):
piste off, you know, just all of those really human,
justifiable things, because that's what's real. And when we skip
over those real human emotions and then move straight to
the you know, the more quote unquote spiritual approach, that
stuff just festers. And what happens is, you know, the
(27:50):
same person who piste you off a year ago, you know,
a year after you've been repressing it. Then you have
some fantastic passive, aggressive interaction with them, and they're just like,
where is this coming from? And you realize you've actually
secretly been holding your your grudge against them for quite
a long time, or it comes out in other ways.
(28:10):
I mean, what's repressed, we'll find a way to sneak out. Also,
if we're not feeling our anger, it disables us from
creating justice and creating change. It's like, there's a lot
of reasons to be very angry about things that are
happening in our political system, and that anger is clarifying.
(28:30):
That anger, you know, helps you stand up straight and
use your voice and create change. And there are many
occasions where it's just not the time to say, well,
you know, this is karma unfolding. We're all learning something
that's that's bullshit passivity. H I agree with you that
(29:19):
what we repress ends up showing up. And it's funny
you were mentioning anger and passive aggressiveness, and I was
just thinking about that earlier today. I was looking at
a situation and in some of the other work that
I do, and I was like, I'm being passive aggressive
to that person because I've not said what I'm frustrated about.
And it was I was all of a sudden like,
oh yeah, and that's not that's not a good that's
(29:41):
not being a good leader. Anger is the one that
I struggled with. I've gotten pretty good at being sad
and allowing sadness to occur and and flow through me
and not afraid of that. But I think anger is
the one for me. How about you? Is there one
that you still are more inclined to run from? That's
a great question. I think mine is disappointment. And instead
(30:03):
of just like being with the disappointment, like I got
let down, I let myself down. That's that's where I'll
spiritual bypassing on just be like, well, everybody's trying their
best and I'm so capable. I can do it. I'll
take care of it. And I shouldn't have asked for
that much or I should have tried harder, and it's
(30:24):
really not cool as a leader. I mean, just to
like get deeper into this. For me, it's a personality thing.
It's an angiogram thing, So like on the innogram, I'm
for you don't even need to know how the anagram works.
But what I'll tell you is that my weakness is
that I'll just do it myself. It's actually not a strength.
(30:46):
And so when I'm disappointed. That's the default I go into,
I'll just do it myself, and that that's not it's
not cool because then I get well, I get overworked,
and it also doesn't allow people to rise to to
improve rise to the occasion. Then this is part of
the spiritual bypass. I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings
as much of a take no ship kind of person
(31:08):
that I am, and just like, well, you know, and
I'm way better, way better in the last two years
at it than I used to be. I used to
let things just go completely, and now I'm just like,
you know what, Sorry, you gotta redo it. Yep. Well,
I'm in nine on the indiogram, so I think that's peacemaker.
(31:29):
So I wrestled with the same same challenge and I
get better at it when I'm really focused on it.
And I guess this goes back to what I was
saying earlier. I get I focus on it, I get better,
and then I sort of slide back into my old
habits again, and and then I, like I was saying today,
I was realizing, like, Okay, I need to re engage
with this as be more conscious about what I'm doing here.
(31:52):
Because listen, you nines would rut, you would do anything
other than express anger. You might, you might evolved at
the point whe're like, it's I'm okay feeling it, but
to actually confront somebody, it's really I feel your pain.
I have a friend, one of my best friends, is
in nine, and I'm just like, you know, sweetheart, you
(32:13):
just tell me, tell me what you would tell him.
She's like God, and she gets it. I'm like, okay, now,
just give him ten percent of that and you will
be making progress forward. Yet, Chris just said, should I
send her a picture of the black eye I gave
him last week? As if I got mad enough to
hit him? No that I can't imagine what he could
possibly ever do that would provoke me to to that.
(32:35):
But yeah, and is a nine. As a peacemaker. I
keep trying to remind myself that not saying what's going
on and just stuffing it is not making peace. It
seems like it, but in a deeper sense, it's just not.
And and I've learned that often enough in life that
you'd think i'd have it by now, but I keep
learning it. Yeah. Well, I mean, we're all just it's
(32:57):
all a big repeat, but you know one thing that
might be helpful. Can I just give you some therapy
for a second, please. It's more creative to speak it.
I mean, I think you can totally identify, like you
want to create your reality. You want to be an intentional,
a deliberate creator. And if you can express your anger,
you're you're you're making an awesome life. You're creating more precisely, Yeah, yeah,
(33:22):
I think that is is great feedback a lot of
what I wrestle with. And you had a line in
your book about this, which was, you know, if your
heart is just genuinely you're sort of that easy going
and good natured um, that's great versus if you're repressing
all that stuff or you're not saying all that stuff
because if you're afraid or you don't want to cause conflict.
And and I sometimes don't know that I can tell,
(33:45):
right because I am fairly laid back about stuff, like
I'm kind of like, okay, whatever, But I don't know
how much of that is sort of the unconscious habit
over all these years of being that way. And so
I'm really trying to look more closely at like what's
going on underneath the surface. My initial reaction is to say, Oh,
everything's fine, but what's really happening underneath that? And and recognize.
(34:09):
And I usually can tell, like I said, because I
start to become slightly passive aggressive without really even knowing it.
I just noticed that I'm irritated with the person, and
then I'm like, why am I irritated with the person?
I'm like, oh, because that thing that they did that
I didn't think mattered two weeks ago, you know, blah
blah blah. So for me, my body always knows when
I'm angry. I mean, there's lots of reasons I could
(34:31):
get angry, but when I'm in that mode of like, okay,
that's healthy. But if I feel that fire and I
don't express it somehow, then I pay I pay for it. Yep. Well,
it's that idea of how for most of us are
best trait can also be our biggest weakness if we
don't deal with it. Right. So, another idea that you
(34:54):
had in the book, and I really liked it, was
you said that the more you can expose yourself to
conflicting dogmas, the better off you are. And that seems
to be something that a lot of people in the
world today are simply not willing to do um is
to explore anyone else's perspective on things. So why does
(35:14):
that help us? Because I think we do have more
common than we have differences, and when we realize that,
there's significantly less conflict, because that's how you become a
more loving person. Being able to entertain other perspectives helps
I mean, it helps you see what you're dealing. Was like,
it's good to know who else is on the planet
(35:36):
and to know, you know, the extent of there's a
lot of density, and there's a lot of darkness, and
there's a lot of hatred. It's good to know that.
And also to know that the light and the love
and the humanity that is living next door to you
and teaching your kids um and and running your communities.
(35:57):
So there's that, There's just like general awareness and just
expand expanding your perspective. Expansion is always better than constriction.
I think the healing is there in that dialogue. I've
been talking a bit about thinking a lot about this
of the last you know, the summer, basically the last
(36:20):
couple of months. I don't know when this is going
to air, but you know, with a lot of strife
that's happening in terms of racism and immigration, and I
mean mostly in the US, but we certainly have a
problems in Canada as well. And I'm thinking about what
would the effect be if I had some one on
one conversations with people who identified as being racist, and
(36:43):
what would happen if we had town hall meetings and
really sought to understand each other. And I think we'd
find out that a lot of people who um spew
hatred are deeply wounded. Doesn't mean there shouldn't be justice,
doesn't doesn't astify it at all, right, but it helps
(37:03):
us understand because what I'm seeing is, you know, I'm
not quite comfortable with the kind of protesting that's happening
right now. Like I'm about to go to the Women's March,
I'm not going to be comfortable marching and screaming. It's
about who I am. So my way of protesting is, well,
(37:25):
it's more peaceful. Yeah, I agree. I am very concerned
about a lot of the politics that we see and
what's happening. I'm almost equally as concerned by how we
are treating each other. Um. You you reference Parker J.
Palmer in your book, and he's got so many wise
things to stay on this topic that that I just
(37:46):
think he's he's got so many great ideas. Yeah, he's
brilliant and he I mean, I mean talk about somebody
who's face they're suffering. He's amazing. Yeah. Yeah, Well, Danielle,
thank you so much for taking the time to come on.
The book, as I said, was called hot Truth, and
I really enjoyed reading it. I like reading all of
your stuff, and I appreciate you being willing to come
on yet another time. Eric. Thank you for being so
(38:11):
thorough and for really I have to say, you know,
I've done a lot of I've had a lot of
conversations about this book, and you really got to subtle stuff.
So this was like a total pleasure. I'm really grateful.
Thank you, Thank you, take care to okay bye. If
(38:44):
what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider
making a donation to the one you Feed podcast. Head
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Host
Eric Zimmer
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