How to Nurture Creativity in a Noisy World with Maggie Smith

In this episode, Maggie Smith explores how to nurture creativity in a noisy world. A lot of people think creativity is something you do with a paintbrush or a poem but Maggie challenges us to think differently about creativity. It isn’t about what you make, but how you live. She dives into what it really means to be creative, even when you’re overwhelmed, unsure, and not feeling particularly inspired. And we tackle a bigger question: How do we keep creating when the world is so loud and we’re so tired?

Key Takeaways:

• Insights on creativity and the challenges of staying inspired in a chaotic world.
• The role of intuition in the creative process and the significance of listening to one’s inner voice.
• Balancing the need to stay informed with personal well-being and mental health.
• The concept of hope in creativity and the idea of being a “possibilist.”
• Practical advice for overcoming creative blocks and finding inspiration.
• The value of feedback and community in the creative process.
• The relationship between restlessness and creativity, and how it can drive artistic growth.
• Embracing playfulness and curiosity in creative endeavors.

f you enjoyed this conversation with Maggie Smith, check out these other episodes:

The Lost Art of Living Creatively with Austin Kleon

Creativity as a Cure with Jacob Nordby

Writing for Healing with Maggie Smith (2021)

For full show notes, click here!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey friends, Eric here with some exciting news. I've been
writing a book and it's about to be out in
the world in April of twenty twenty six. The working
title is How a Little Becomes a Lot, and it's
all about how small, consistent actions, the kind that we
talk about all the time on this show can lead
to real meaningful change. Right now, the book is in

(00:21):
the editing process and there's still some shaping to do,
which is where you come in. I'd love your input
on what to focus on, how to talk about the book,
even what it should be called. If you've got a
few minutes and a couple thoughts on what would make
this book most helpful for you, I'd be really grateful
to hear them. Just head to oneufeed dot net slash

(00:43):
book survey. You'll also get early updates, fun giveaways, and
to behind the scenes look at what it actually takes
to make a book. Editing marathons, title debates, existential spirals,
and me questioning all of my life choices at two
am over one stubborn sentence. Again, that's one you feed
dot net slash book survey. Thank you so much for

(01:06):
being part of this. Your feedback really means a lot
to me. Truly.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
It's funny to me how many people think they're not
creative because they don't make art, which I find sad.
We're all creative, anyone who does a job doing anything.
Anytime you brainstorm something, anytime you try to solve a problem, creative.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers
have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think,
ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts
don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy,

(01:52):
or fear. We see what we don't have instead of
what we do. We think things that hold us back
and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort
to make a life worth living. This podcast is about
how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction,

(02:13):
how they feed their good wolf.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
A lot of people think creativity is something you do
with a paintbrush or a poem or a perfectly arranged
Instagram grid. But what if creativity isn't about what you
make but how you live. In this episode, I talk
with Maggie Smith, poet, author and champion of the messy,
meaningful creative life. We dig into what it really means

(02:38):
to be creative even when you're overwhelmed, unsure, and not
feeling particularly inspired, and we ask a bigger question, how
do we keep creating when the world is so loud
and we're so tired. This is one of those conversations
that doesn't just give you advice, it gives you permission.
I'm Eric Zimmer, and this is the one you feed. Hi, Maggie,

(03:01):
welcome to the show.

Speaker 4 (03:02):
That's good to be back, it sure is.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
It's nice to see you again. We're here to discuss
your latest book, which is called Dear Writer, Pep Talks
and practical advice for the creative life. And we're going
to get into all of that in a moment, but
we will start in the way that we always do,
which is with the parable. And in the Parable, there's
a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say,
in life, there are two wolves inside of us that

(03:26):
are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and
hatred and fear, and the grandchild stops, thinks about it
for a second, looks up at their grandparent and says,
which one wins, and the grandparent says, the one you feed.

(03:47):
So I'd like to start off by asking you what
that parable means to you and your life and in
the work that you do.

Speaker 2 (03:54):
I love that I've gotten to answer this question more
than once, and I have to keep coming up with
a different response for what it means to me. Eric,
I've been thinking a lot lately about intuition, which is
maybe like sort of a woo woo concept, but I've
been thinking a lot more about it, and like the
way that we can listen to that sort of voice

(04:16):
inside ourselves that tells us what is true and good
that we should be perhaps pursuing, and then there's probably
another little voice inside of ourselves that says, yeah, but
this might be more lucrative, or this might be an
easier path, or this would be less of a hassle.
And so I've been thinking about those two wolves in

(04:37):
a kind of intuitive sense these days, which is, how
do I tune into that inner voice inside me and
ask it, like, what is true and good that I
should be pursuing right now and what can I let
fall away? Because as we get busier and as the
news cycle gets more insane, yeah right, I mean, there

(04:58):
are just so many little hooks in the world that
are grabbing at us and competing for our time and attention,
and so being able to kind of, I don't know,
tune in to that kinder, clearer frequency and just know
what to do with oneself on a daily basis seems
essential right now. So that's what it kind of brings

(05:19):
up in me at this particular time.

Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah. I think about that question of intuition a lot,
and about the inner voices and knowing which ones you
want to listen to and trust and follow and which
ones you want to let go. And I think that
in many ways, this path of becoming more in touch

(05:43):
with who we are and living a better and more
meaningful life is just primarily about hearing those things and
sorting them out. And for me, sort of say, the beginning,
like when I got sober, as a beginning, right, I
couldn't trust any of those in hear your voices, they
were all bad wolves.

Speaker 4 (06:02):
Ye.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Now, there's a lot of good wolves in there too,
and I can trust it a whole lot more. But
I do need to be a little bit more quiet.
And I've been thinking about what you're talking about, like
just the clamor like, I'm a big fan of substack.
I know you're on substack. I love substack, and even
substack feels so noisy to me. Now there's so many

(06:24):
great writers. I'm feeling in a way i've never felt before,
like a full retreat from online anything, because it just
seems to be in some way ratcheting up something that
I felt like I had some sort of grip on.
I feel like now I'm back in the midst of

(06:44):
the real struggle. Yeah, and I don't do any social
media even well, then.

Speaker 2 (06:49):
Don't add that to your repertoire, because that's a whole
other wolf.

Speaker 4 (06:53):
Yes, you're right, it's a whole pack. You're right.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
I think we could talk for a long time about
all of the sort of negative stuff that's coming at
us constantly that we're having to weed through because you
have to pay attention to it and be informed in
the world and not bury your head in the sand.
But in order to sort of survive and thrive and
make things and be useful to yourself and others. You
can't be completely consumed by the news cycle. But it's

(07:20):
not just that it's even good stuff is overwhelming, right,
Like if you wake up in the morning and you
have fifty substack notifications in your email of things that
you really would like to read, yeah, and engage with,
but you actually just don't even have the bandwidth for
the incoming, good, worthwhile stuff. I've been thinking a lot

(07:41):
about that lately, like how do we pair down because
that seems really essential right now to just get to
a place where, Okay, here are the things that really
matter to me, and how do I kind of like
weed through the rest of that static, even if it's
good static.

Speaker 1 (07:57):
Yeah, yeah, I heard some writer I don't remember who
it is who said, you know, it's not a problem
of like trying to find the needle in the haystack anymore.
It's basically a haystack full of needles at this point, right,
And that is so true. Let's jump to the book
for a second, because in the book you have I
don't know, you could tell me how many what do
you call them? Capacities? You've got attension wonder, what do

(08:20):
you call it.

Speaker 4 (08:21):
Yes, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (08:22):
I think I call them elements of creativity, or if
I were coming up with a recipe for creativity. I
think of them as like the ingredients in the secret Sauce.

Speaker 1 (08:31):
Great, Okay, So in the ingredients one of them, I
believe the last one is hope. Yeah, And I thought
we could go there because you just referenced the news cycle.
You reference this idea of needing to be informed, And
I'm struggling with this right now. I don't think I'm
alone right because I'm having a desire to tune out
in a way I never have because I feel so

(08:55):
thoroughly overwhelmed, and that overwhelmingness leads to nothing, Whereas when
I withdraw myself to a certain degree, then I can
at least do what I feel like I can do
in the world. And I've been questioning that statement of like,
it's good to be informed, you need to know what's happening,
And I've been wrestling with the idea of is that true?

(09:17):
Is it moral to be informed? Is there actually virtue
in that? Or is there only virtue in what you
do as a result of being informed. I'm struggling with
this question personally right now.

Speaker 2 (09:30):
That's a really interesting question, because what good is the
information if it doesn't impact your behavior or the way
you move through the world. I mean, knowing bad things
are happening is one thing. But if you just know
that the bad thing is happening, and then you just
go make yourself a sandwich, how is that useful?

Speaker 1 (09:48):
Or you just read more and more and more and
more bad things that are happening, right and you never
get to good. I've been wanting to go back and
read Candide because I don't really remember all of it.
Do remember this core idea of like ten year garden. Yeah,
and I've been feeling a deeper need to like tend
my garden. I guess anyway, you know what I'm trying

(10:09):
to say, I do.

Speaker 2 (10:09):
But I also think part of that is that our
garden is in our control, yeah, or at least is
more in our control.

Speaker 4 (10:15):
It's not fully in our control, right.

Speaker 2 (10:16):
But when the world feels like it's complete chaos, which
at least to me it does right now, the thing
that I can do is take care of my family,
make decisions for myself, donate my time and money to
causes that matter to me, write my poems.

Speaker 4 (10:34):
Or essays or novels or whatever those things are.

Speaker 2 (10:37):
And so bringing it back to self is a way
of feeling like you're in control in a world that
feels like it's completely out of control.

Speaker 4 (10:47):
And yet I think it is a sort.

Speaker 2 (10:48):
Of moral imperative to be informed, because even voting comes
from that, right, even protesting comes from that. If we
all bury our heads in the sand because we're also
over whelmed and we're not aware of the sort of imaginations,
then they continue.

Speaker 4 (11:05):
But it's a balance.

Speaker 2 (11:06):
If I spend too much time in that world, I'll
stop making things because my nervous system will be so
overwhelmed I won't be able to write.

Speaker 1 (11:15):
Ye.

Speaker 4 (11:16):
So, like, what is that balance between.

Speaker 2 (11:18):
Tending my garden, which is important and necessary and that's
my work, but also not tending my garden as a
way to escape the world.

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Yep, Yeah, it's an ongoing balance. You say though in
the book, if hope is imaginative, then pessimism is a
failure of imagination. You still feel that, Talk to me
about where you are with that today.

Speaker 2 (11:40):
I still feel that way, even with things happening now.
And honestly, we could copy paste that sentence into any
time in.

Speaker 1 (11:47):
History exactly or the future exactly right.

Speaker 4 (11:51):
I mean, like one of.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
The questions that people ask of poets forever is like,
how is poetry important in these harrowing times?

Speaker 4 (12:00):
And I'm like, well, in.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
These harrowing times could also be copy pasted into any yes,
time and history, Like if ten years ago wasn't harrowing
for me, it's because of my like location or.

Speaker 1 (12:14):
Privilege, precisely because the world is always harrowing to some
people somewhere.

Speaker 4 (12:19):
Always, one hundred percent of the time.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
There's this Buddhist story that I love about a woman
who's chased by a tiger and she comes to an
end of the cliff and she sees a sturdy vine
and she climbs part way down, and it describes she says,
there's tigers above, there's tigers below. Mice come out and starts,
you know, gnawing at the and I'm like, that's life
in perpetuity always.

Speaker 2 (12:42):
Yeah, tiger's above, tiger's below. Yeah, that's the shorthand for that.
So it's no different now, really, I mean, does it
feel a little different, sure, But we've always lived through
difficult times. We are going to live through difficult times,
and we keep making art, and if that's not a
hopeful endeavor, I don't know what is. And yes, I

(13:06):
can't make things, nor can I parent as a pessimist.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
I mean it's actually like irresponsible. I think for me
to be doing either of those things, like someone would
have to take the keys from me if I say
I'm driving the car like this, that's not okay. So
that doesn't mean saying, don't worry, guys, Everything's going to
be fine. I'm sure this is all going to like
the pendulum's going to swing back and everything's going to

(13:33):
be cool, and this is all going to be erase. No,
like some of the things that are happening, particularly in
the United States now, will be feeling the repercussions of
this for centuries. Like none of this is small time stuff.
But that doesn't mean we give up. Like what's the alternative, right,
I don't get it.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
There was a book that was written I don't know
how long ago now by a guy named Hans Roslin.
It's called Factfulness, and basically what he's trying to do
in the book is show that the world is getting
better on a lot of measures. Right, we've all heard
this by now, right, like childhood literacy rising, worldwide poverty following,
you know, all these sort of things.

Speaker 4 (14:10):
But like expectancy. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (14:12):
The thing that he says in that book, though, that
I love is he's talking about optimism and pessimism, and
he refuses to be considered either. He's like, people call
me an optimist because I show them all this progress.
He said, I'm not an optimist. I'm a possibilist. And
I love that idea because that's what you're getting to
with hope, being imaginative, being a possibilist. You know, there's

(14:33):
a way that we can make things better. We don't
know how much better. We don't know what the scope
of that is, but we can't. We do have that ability.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Yeah, And what is the point of the future if
we think that it's already written?

Speaker 1 (14:46):
Right?

Speaker 2 (14:47):
I mean, if we actually think we can do nothing
to impact what happens in the next five minutes or
in the next day or the next year.

Speaker 4 (14:55):
Yep, I mean we're just playing with blocks.

Speaker 2 (14:57):
I mean we have to believe that our action and
even our thoughts have an impact in the world.

Speaker 4 (15:03):
That feels hopeful to.

Speaker 2 (15:05):
Me, and I like the idea of being a possiblist.
Maybe I'll use that from now. I used to say I.

Speaker 4 (15:12):
Was a recovering pessimist.

Speaker 2 (15:14):
I don't say that anymore because I actually feel like
I'm pretty optimistic, but from a like a realistic standpoint.

Speaker 1 (15:22):
So in the book, you have these different ingredients. We
talked about them, one of them being hope. I want
to talk for a minute about the role of creativity
in the average person's life. Right this book is written,
it's got a lot about how to be a better
writer in it. I was saying to you before we started.

(15:42):
My book is due to the publisher in ten days.
I wish i'd read this book like three months ago
because I would have been like, oh, I can do that,
and I should try this, and you know, so now
I've got all kinds of things because I've been a
little bit like, well, the draft's done, I'm not quite
sure how to make it better. So as a book
about it's outstanding in that and I know that's a

(16:02):
big thing to you teaching writing, teaching craft. Some of
our listeners are going to be writers, and so they're
hearing this, and I'm hoping they will go get the
book because it's great in that way, but I want
to broaden creativity out from just people who would be
considering themselves a writer or artist. Talk to me about
the role of creativity in just life.

Speaker 4 (16:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (16:27):
It's funny to me how many people think they're not
creative because they don't make art, which I find sad.
We're all creative. Anyone who does a job doing anything.
Anytime you brainstorm something, ye, anytime you try to solve
a problem creative. Anytime my son has soccer practice on
one side of town and my daughter has work on
the other side of town, it requires creativity.

Speaker 4 (16:50):
I'm not even being facetious like I think.

Speaker 2 (16:52):
In our daily lives, every relationship we start end, every
time we change our minds about something, every conversation we
have with someone that is unscripted like this one. I
don't know what you're going to offer me, and you
don't know what I'm going to offer you back.

Speaker 4 (17:06):
This is creative time that we're spending together.

Speaker 2 (17:09):
It's something that I feel kind of evangelical about, frankly,
that we are all creative people and even if you
think you're not, you're just wrong actually, and that it
has something to offer all of us and the other
thing I would say is that even if you're not
making art, I hate this as a verb, but you're
consuming it right, You're engaging with it. Is a perhaps warmer,

(17:34):
less capitalistic way to say it. Even if you're not
making art, you're engaging with art. You are listening to music,
you are watching films or television. You have probably art
in your home, and so what does it mean to
you to be engaging with that piece of art on
a daily basis? Perhaps for me, I feel like we

(17:57):
can't engage with art, whether we're making it or looking
at it listening to it, without being different on the
other side of it.

Speaker 4 (18:07):
And so part of what we want as.

Speaker 2 (18:09):
Humans is to grow, which I think it is for
me why I make art, and part of why I
listen to music as often as I do, and why
I want to go see bands as often as I do,
and why I want to see the movies that people
say are making them cry or scream or whatever, is
because I know that on the other side of that

(18:31):
record or concert experience or film, I will not be
exactly the person I was before.

Speaker 1 (18:39):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
And we can argue that that's true of anything, right,
Like you go on a hike.

Speaker 4 (18:43):
You're not the same person after the hike.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
But I think there's something sort of built into like
the DNA of art made by human beings, which I
have to say because AI is making me crazy. But
when a human being makes a piece of art and
then we spend time with it, that's a kind of
creative connection that we're making, and it transforms us and

(19:05):
we exit that a little different on the other side.
And I think we're all kind of craving that, whether
we're consciously craving it or not.

Speaker 1 (19:13):
There was something you talk about in the book. It
was under the element of vision that I wanted to
talk about because I found it kind of inspiring. And
you talked about a way to get unstuck when it
comes to a poem, and you say, when I pack
my bag to go somewhere to do writing, I'm paraphrasing here.
I always take a notebook with me and at least
one book, and I begin my writing time by reading

(19:35):
pen in hand, because I know what is likely to happen.
A word, phrase, sentence, or idea will open a door
for me. And then you talk about just like making
a list of words that you pull out of the
text how might you combine those words in unexpected ways.
I just love this idea because it talks about how
to actually go from reading something that feels inspiring in

(19:56):
some way, but I don't know how to engage with
it differently, how to give it my own thing. And
I just love this idea of just like writing out
words or a sentence and then trying to follow a sentence.
You talk about making something. I'd never heard of this before.
A cento. Tell me what a cento is.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
I joke that a cento is the laziest poem you
can write. It's actually not. But a cento requires no writing.
That's the secret of the cento. So it's an Italian form.
It's a collage poem. So basically a cento is a
poem in which each line has been pulled from another writer,
and so your job is basically assembling these lines to

(20:35):
make a new hole. So if you find a line
in a poem you love and it ends with a preposition,
then you find a line in some other person's poem
that begins with a noun phrase and kind of makes
a new, weird, interesting sentence, and you build that way.
And so it really is like cutting images and making
a collagh from someone else's art.

Speaker 1 (20:56):
Yeah, I just think that's such an approachable thing to do.
If I sit down to write a poem and I
know I'm creative, I play guitar, I'm writing a book,
even though it's sort of a certain type of nonfiction book.
But when I sit down to try and create, you know,
at the capitol C, I often just feel flow mixed.
But the idea of this is a way in. Yeah, really,

(21:18):
Like I was like, oh, that's easy. I've tried to
find other ways in. Like my friend Chris and I
we did it religiously for a while and now we
don't do it so often, but we would do a
daily Hiku together in the morning via text. I'd send
the first line, he'd be responsible.

Speaker 4 (21:30):
For the next I remember that, you guys.

Speaker 1 (21:32):
Yeah yeah, And then the next day he'd have to
send the first line. And it was just like a
way of creating that was easy in comparison to what
it feels like for a lot of people when they
stare at a blank page.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
Eric, that's what staring at a blank page feels like
to me. If you told me go write a poem
right now, I couldn't do it, and I'm a poet, Like,
that's not how it works. I don't create on demand,
Like it's not something you can just order up, like
going through the drive through at a fast food restaurant.
I have to give myself starters to get myself.

Speaker 4 (22:05):
Going, too.

Speaker 2 (22:06):
I Mean, the other thing I do is go back
to something I've already written that isn't working, and I'll
just kind of like noodle around in an old draft
if I don't have an idea for something new, right, Like,
that's always a good way to get started, because you
might end up in some direction you never expected. But
if I have time to write, I have to give
myself a way in, and often it's with someone else's work, right,

(22:30):
Like pulling a line from a poem and using it
as the epigraph at the top, and then maybe mimicking
the sentence structure, or pulling a sentence from a novel
or an essay and rewriting that sentence exactly syntactically but
using my own words, but using the container of their
sentence structure. Or yeah, I have done word banks before,

(22:51):
or I will read through particularly a collection of poems,
but like a science article would be really interesting for
something like this too, you know, pulling vocabular larry from
something that you might not have in your repertoire and
making a word bank list and then thinking, Okay, how
can I combine these words in unique ways to make

(23:11):
images or metaphors or a cento, Like going to my bookshelf,
pulling off a bunch of poems and trying to cobble
something together that way that I get to call mine,
even though I'm using other people's words. I think one
of the most pernicious myths about creating anything is that

(23:31):
it just like the muse visits you and it just
comes through you and comes out fully formed, and it's
fast and easy.

Speaker 4 (23:38):
I hope we're like doing.

Speaker 2 (23:40):
A good enough job of dispelling that over time, but
it's usually incremental. It's more of a trickle than a rush,
and it takes a lot of work.

Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, I think that we do have these two sort
of extreme ideas sometimes of art. One is, like you said,
the muse just descends and something just come out. The
other is this extraordinarily laborious you sit down at the
same place at the same time and you just grind
right like that is what's been used to counter that

(24:12):
other myth, and I think what you're doing is you're
striking sort of a middle ground between those. I love
this line. You can't force a poem, but I think
you can prepare for one. I think that's a great
line for poems and just for a whole lot of
life in general. Right, there's a lot of things in
life you cannot force, but you can prepare, you can
set the stage four, you can influence.

Speaker 4 (24:32):
Absolutely. Yeah. I do not consider my writing life a grind.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
But I also don't sit down at the same time
every day and stare at a page until something happens.
I try to live my life and move through the day,
and as things come to me, I'm like a little
magpie looking for the shiny bits. I collect them as
I can, and then eventually they accrue into.

Speaker 4 (24:53):
Something if I'm lucky.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
But that's that kind of like setting the table, right,
Like if I haven't set the table, there's a less
likely chance that the thing's going to show up ready
to go. And so preparing the table for me can
look like a lot of different things, but it certainly
doesn't look like it doesn't look like work.

Speaker 4 (25:13):
Ye in the way that we think.

Speaker 2 (25:15):
And it also doesn't look like being struck by lightning
and having something come through me. It looks like getting
an idea, writing it down, and then maybe coming back
to it in a week when some other idea wants
to belcrow itself to the side of that idea.

Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, you're very realistic though in the book, because you
mentioned like, as a working writer, sometimes you're on deadline.
Right when you do, you sit down and you just
kind of That's how I felt with this book, right.
It's like I got the book deal and I had
a year, and I was like, okay, you know, if
I don't want to end up in a mad rush
at the end, which apparently always happens no matter what

(25:49):
you do. It just kind of made myself sort of
write and follow a schedule, but in another creative endeavor
for me, like guitar, it follows no like that, right,
it's far more able to be what it is. But
I also do give myself. I set the stage often
enough by sitting down with the guitar.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
Yeah. Well, this is why I was saying.

Speaker 2 (26:11):
I like to go away and kind of give myself
retreats when I really have to write, whether I'm on
deadline or not. There's something for me about getting out
of my home office, out of the place where my
laundry and dishes need to be done, right out of
the place where my kids are asking for a ride someplace.
If I can get out of my daily life, sometimes

(26:34):
that even just means going to a coffee shop for
a few hours where I'm not reachable and I can't
do chores, frankly, but if I can go to a
cabin in the woods for four days, something happens and
it almost feels like turning on a faucet and things
just happen, and it's like, I think I've been doing
that long enough that sort of intuitively my mind knows

(26:55):
that when I get into that environment it's writing time.
It's like if you have good sleep hygiene and you
go to bed, if you're doing it right, your body
is like, oh, this is it's sleep time, right, Like
this is what we do before sleep, and now I'm
prepared for it. I actually don't think that writing or
making things is is that different. You can kind of

(27:16):
give yourself cues, and for me, being among trees happens
to be one of my mental cues for time to
get some stuff done.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
We've talked about this before, I believe when you were
on the show, but we talked about this idea of
seeing the world as a poet, and I mentioned I
love to read good poetry because I feel like it
teaches me how to look differently than I normally look.
You call it poets eyes and say that you know
we all have them, particularly as children. But you also

(28:13):
talk about how there's both a loss and a gift
in being a writer. Share more about that because I
resonate with that a lot.

Speaker 4 (28:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
I mean, I think when you're mining your lived experience
for art, and maybe it's not that different from a
photographer who, whether they're walking through the world with a
camera or not, is framing things with their eyes yep.

Speaker 1 (28:40):
Or a musician. When I go see a band play,
I'm watching what they're doing with the chords and I'm
thinking about like, there's a part of me that's processing
it as a fan, as a lover of it, but
there's a part of me that's processing it as a musician,
and it causes a little bit of a split.

Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, I think that's true, and I think as a
writer it's funny, like can I take a walk and
have it just be a walk or is it a
walk in which I'm also mining that walk for imagery,
sensory detail, metaphor. And it's sort of I mean, I
say in the book, it's sort of a loss and

(29:15):
a gift. There's a part of me that is always
standing a little bit outside of the present moment because
I'm grasping for language, a framework, a container away in
like I'm looking for the door into the piece of
writing about the thing that I'm experiencing in the moment.

(29:36):
So it's like when you hear people say, oh, I
have like present tense nostalgia, you know, like I'm kind
of like missing this moment as it's happening because it's
so good.

Speaker 4 (29:44):
I'm already sad.

Speaker 2 (29:47):
About this beautiful experience because I know it's going to end.
I feel like there's a kind of a bit of
that where if i'm kind of meta processing as a writer,
I'm not able to just fully surrender YEP to the
lived experience in the moment.

Speaker 4 (30:04):
And sounds like you have that happen too.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
I do, certainly with music, but in general, I think
I have to work on it within myself that I
don't constantly think as you're saying that every moment is
supposed to produce something out of it.

Speaker 4 (30:22):
That's so important.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
Because then all of a sudden, life becomes all about instrumentality,
right like versus life. I just think, like you said,
it's a loss and a gift, and so for me,
anything that's that sort of double edged sword, and lots
of things in life are I just have to kind
of pay attention to how I'm holding the sword a
lot in order to not, you know, slice myself into
a thousand pieces.

Speaker 4 (30:44):
I think that's really smart. I love the way you
put that.

Speaker 2 (30:47):
I remember my mom asking me once I told her
about some great day I'd had with the kids, like
just at Hawking Hills or at the zoo, or just
you know, some just really joyful day I'm just spending
the day together. And she said, oh, you should write
about that, because she was thinking, all of your poems
are so melancholy, right like, that's so uncomplicated and accessible.

Speaker 4 (31:07):
You should write about that.

Speaker 2 (31:08):
And I remember being on the phone with her and saying,
I don't need to write about it.

Speaker 4 (31:12):
I just enjoyed living it. So I know, I know
the difference. I can go to like.

Speaker 2 (31:18):
An amusement park with my kids, and I'm not, like,
what's the rollercoaster a metaphor for like, I know I'm
able to pull myself out of that. It's like a
trap I can fall into, and I'm very susceptible, Like
my kid says something interesting and I'm like ooh, and
I think they can see it happening, like when I
kind of leave the present moment and they can kind

(31:39):
of see this like, oh, she's an art mode right now.
Mom just left the chat and the writer has entered
the chat.

Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah. They probably also really like it too, though, because
they feel like they've helped create something or they've said
something interesting. I hope, So yeah.

Speaker 4 (31:55):
Yeah, I mean I don't know. I guess we'll see.

Speaker 2 (31:58):
Like who knows what one's legacy will be with their children,
but yeah, we'll see.

Speaker 1 (32:02):
One of the other things that happens when it comes
to creativity for people on any level, is that you
are able to see how you may not be quote
unquote very good at it right And again I don't
think this ever actually goes away for anyone now. But
you talk about being an amateur and I did not
know this until I read it, that the root of

(32:23):
amateur in Latin means to love, and that is so beautiful.

Speaker 2 (32:29):
I'm a total word nerd, So my kids get really
annoyed when they say something and like, do you know
the Latin root of that is this?

Speaker 4 (32:35):
And it means this? They hate it.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
But I look up words and I want to know
their origins all the time because it actually changes the
way I think about the concept. So to know that
the root of amateur is to love, I think we
use that word as we either use it as a
self deprecating term or we use it as a criticism
of others. If we're being unkind, that's amateurish, right, yeah.

(33:01):
But if we think of it, about it as like
an amateur is not somebody who's not good at something,
which is I think how we use it a lot,
But an amateur is someone who's doing something out of
the love for the thing, rather than trying to professionalize
perhaps the thing.

Speaker 4 (33:17):
It actually speaks.

Speaker 2 (33:18):
To what we were just talking about, like experiencing versus
mining everything is material. I would like to be more
of an amateur in that way.

Speaker 4 (33:27):
I mean courage too.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
The root of courage is core, which if you think
of Spanish core zone, it's heart.

Speaker 4 (33:33):
So it makes me think.

Speaker 2 (33:34):
Of bravery differently to think about courage. In that way,
we should all be brave amateurs.

Speaker 1 (33:42):
Yes, yes, right, just like.

Speaker 2 (33:45):
Boldly trying things, failing a lot of the time, picking
ourselves back up because it's fun to try, not because
we are expecting to get some guaranteed.

Speaker 4 (33:57):
Result from it.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
Before we dive back into the conversation, let me ask
you something. What's one thing that has been holding you
back lately? You know that it's there, You've tried to
push past it, but somehow it keeps getting in the way.
You're not alone in this, and I've identified six major
saboteurs of self control, things like autopilot behavior, self doubt,

(34:20):
emotional escapism that quietly derail our best intentions. But here's
the good news. You can outsmart them. And I put
together a free guide to help you spot these hidden
obstacles and give you simple, actionable strategies that you can
use to regain control. Download the free guide now at
oneufeed dot net slash ebook and take the first step

(34:43):
towards getting back on track. This is another one of
those things that I have to wrestle with myself, which
is not turning things I love into a job or
or something that I have to get good at. Now
I've gotten much better at this. I've aged, thankfully. I
just need to watch for that tendency. But it's true

(35:05):
at the same time that improving does feel good. Yeah, right,
Like there's something in it that feels good. So I'm
trying to sort of do both those things. I'm like,
all right, I don't want to turn this into a chore,
but yet I do know that I want to improve
because that just feels good. And trying to hold all

(35:27):
of that for me with the things that I do,
Like with guitar, I firmly embrace amateur. I do because
I love it. I don't do it for any reason
anymore except that I enjoy doing it. I have no
expectation of anything coming out of it at all, you know,

(35:48):
not getting the girl, not getting in a band, not
getting paid, none of it. Yeah, I feel like after
years of that, I was given the instrument back in
a way.

Speaker 4 (35:58):
I love that. Honestly. It's when people ask about my work,
I'm like, oh.

Speaker 2 (36:03):
I'm a poet and i'd be doing it for free.
I'm not anymore, but I would be, yes, because it's
the thing I love. To do, and sometimes I'm like,
don't tell anyone, I would be doing this for free.
But this is the thing I love to do. And
even if nobody else wanted to read anything I was writing,
I would still be doing it for myself, and yes,

(36:24):
improving and working on my craft. I feel like I'm
competing against myself. That's all I'm doing. I'm competing against
the writer I was yesterday, not other writers. It's just
me be me, And for some reason, I find that
really invigorating. And it makes me wonder if some of
these people who were like, oh, I'm not creative and

(36:45):
they sort of like shake that off. Maybe they feel
that way because they're not professionals at something. Maybe it's
this sort of like, well, I'm just an amate like oh, yeah,
I play guitar, but I'm not that good, or yeah, yeah,
like I can paint, but it's just for me and
I don't really show it to anybody, Like it doesn't count.

Speaker 4 (37:05):
It absolutely counts.

Speaker 1 (37:07):
Yeah, And I think a big part of it is
just being like, it doesn't matter if I'm good or not.
That's not the point of the thing, right, That's not
the measure. But that's what most of us do, And
it kind of goes back to what you were saying
in the beginning. We've got these multiple voices inside of us,
and one of those voices is just naturally, you should

(37:27):
be good at this. If you're not good at it,
don't do it. There's a lot of places that comes from.
We don't need to deconstruct all the various places it
comes from, but I think it's pretty deeply embedded in
a lot of people. I agree, But that willingness to
just say.

Speaker 4 (37:40):
Doesn't matter, No, it doesn't matter.

Speaker 2 (37:43):
I think part of what aging is helping me do
is crave experience instead of perfection or even mastery. Like
I'm just so excited at my age to get to
do new things that it matters less what the output

(38:04):
is or the outcome.

Speaker 4 (38:05):
It's just like, oh, I get to do that.

Speaker 2 (38:07):
Great Like I feel a lot more playful now than
I did even about what I consider my work in
air quotes twenty years ago. Because the stakes don't need
to be that high. We can actually do things because
we enjoy them, and that they don't need to be
side hustles. They don't need to be things that we're
doing for recognition. Maybe no one else even knows that

(38:30):
we do them. I won't even mention it because I
sworn myself to secrecy. But I started learning how to
do something new this year, and like three people know
about it, and I don't want.

Speaker 4 (38:41):
My kids don't even know.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
I'm learning in complete privacy and secrecy because it's just
for me, and I want no one to ask me, Oh,
what are you going to do with that?

Speaker 3 (38:52):
Oh?

Speaker 4 (38:52):
Are you going to do this with that? Or what's
your goal.

Speaker 2 (38:55):
It's like when I started like running that people are like,
are you going to do a half marathon? No, I'm
not doing this for any reason, And the fact that
you have expectations for this makes me want to not
tell anybody. When I want to learn how to do
something new, like it can just be because I crave
a new experience.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
First off, Now I'm dying to know.

Speaker 4 (39:15):
But I'm not gonna tell. I'm not going to tell you.

Speaker 1 (39:20):
I get it. I'm just letting you know.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
I like that you're curious.

Speaker 1 (39:23):
You're trying to peak my curiosity. You did, okay, I
like you have found myself really in the last five
years craving new experience. And I'm going to use that
to segue to one of the elements or ingredients that
you have in the book. Most of them you look
at and you're like, Okay, that makes sense, Yes, play,

(39:43):
that's important, and I can see why. Vision and wonder
and attention and tenacity. But one of them was restlessness.

Speaker 4 (39:50):
I knew that was the one you were going to say.

Speaker 1 (39:52):
Of course, it's so strange because that is a word
I have a negative connotation too, yep. I think generally
I had that, and then in twelve step Programs in
the AA Big Book, there's a line that actually says,
you know, the alcoholic who's not drinking but not in
recovery will feel restless, irritable, and discontent. And I was like, well,

(40:13):
that pretty much sums up me when I just let
myself kind of go yeah. So I loved this idea
of restlessness reframed in a positive way. Tell me about that.

Speaker 2 (40:25):
I think I had this long list of words, and
then I was winnowing it down. I realized that of
all of the ten ingredients, that was the one that
was going to be the one that people would be like, wait,
how is this, yep an element of creativity? Because that
sounds incredibly problematic, Like why would anyone want that, But

(40:45):
to me, it's the opposite of first thought. Best thought
is restlessness. It's the feeling of when you've made something,
you aren't immediately satisfied with it. You have this sort
of needling, slightly uncomfortable feeling. And that's restlessness, right, like
that little bit of a sort of like it's you
can't scratch jittery feeling that you know there's something else,

(41:10):
the potential of that thing that you've just drafted or
made or built or thought up, you have not realized
it yet. I think of when you're on the tube
and they say, mind the gap. I think there's the
version of the thing that you've made, and then there's
the version of the thing you think it can eventually
be in your mind, the shining example of where.

Speaker 4 (41:32):
You think that thing could go.

Speaker 2 (41:34):
And there's a gap between the thing you've built right
the book you're working on, and the book you hope
it will be when it's done and published, the painting
you've been toiling over, and the painting you can see
in your mind's eye. And you need to have a
way to use your skills and techniques and imagination to

(41:57):
narrow that gap as much as possible. I don't think
it ever closes. At least in my experience, it never closes.
I have never made anything that I was like, well,
that's perfect, that's the shining example that I thought it
would be.

Speaker 4 (42:12):
But I have.

Speaker 2 (42:13):
Worked really hard to narrow the gap to a livable
kind of step over able. No one's going to fall
into that crevice down and just be like lost forever
space and restlessness, that kind of goading on of the
self to do better, try harder, push yourself a little further,

(42:35):
take a bigger risk, get weirder with something.

Speaker 4 (42:41):
That's what helps you narrow that gap.

Speaker 2 (42:45):
I think is not being complacent. It's the opposite of complacency.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
And how do you work with that in a way
that doesn't turn into perfectionism or constantly believing that what
you do isn't good. Again, we've been talking about double
edged swords, right, I feel like this could be another one.

Speaker 4 (43:06):
Yeah, it can be.

Speaker 2 (43:08):
I think there's less a risk of creating terrible things
if you push yourself a little harder than if you
think that your first draft is great.

Speaker 4 (43:18):
I mean, I think you know.

Speaker 2 (43:20):
I tell my students all the time time never made
anything worse a lack of time definitely has. Like I
have rushed and done things that I know if I
had more time, it would have been a better fill
in the blank whatever that thing was, you know, And
I think, can you over do it? Can you over
revise something? Yes, you absolutely can. Like it's a balance.

(43:44):
I mean I say all the time, if I had
known my poem good Bones would go viral, I never
would have finished it because it wouldn't have ever in
my mind been ready for millions of eyeballs. And so yes,
part of this is, like it's a very delicate dance.
We have to know our potential, push ourselves as much
as we can, have fun with it, but stops being fun,

(44:07):
stop doing it. I mean I believe that wholeheartedly. If
I'm really pushing myself in a piece of writing and
it stops being fun and interesting to me, I put
it away.

Speaker 4 (44:16):
I don't abandon it. I put it away. I like,
give it a time out and I'll come back to
it later.

Speaker 2 (44:22):
But I think, you know, we have to be careful
not to worry so much about making a thing perfect
that we never actually get it out the door, because
that's that's a problem, right, But also not just being
so self satisfied with our first attempt that we end
up sending a bunch of half baked stuff into the

(44:44):
world and then can't figure out why it's not doing
the work in the world that we thought it might do.
And I think there's a lot of sort of.

Speaker 4 (44:51):
Growing in the art and maturing in the art.

Speaker 2 (44:54):
I don't know that I knew this when I was twenty, right,
but I think we find the balance between doing our
best and also understanding that we're just human beings, and
that if I gave the same materials to a different writer,
they would come up with a totally different poem than
the one that I had written, and maybe one I

(45:15):
would even enjoy more than the one I had written,
or that readers might enjoy more than the one I
had written.

Speaker 4 (45:22):
But that's not my poem.

Speaker 2 (45:24):
So it's like a little bit like, well, I got
to stay in my lane, and again like tend my
own garden.

Speaker 4 (45:30):
That's my territory.

Speaker 1 (46:03):
I am right in the thorns of this because I'm
in revising the book now. When listeners hear this, I'll
probably already have turned the book into the publisher, which
again is not the end, but it's a big milestone.
I'm ten days away from that, so I'm fully in
revision restlessness. And I already made one part of the
book worse by my insistence that I'm going to improve it.

Speaker 4 (46:27):
But how do you know that, I'm so curious?

Speaker 1 (46:30):
Well, because the two people that I let read it,
I was trying to infuse a little more emotionality, and
I think I infused a certain degree of melodrama instead
got it, And so a couple people said, I'm not sure,
And when I went back and looked at it, I
was like, I think you're probably right. However, what I
will say is that I shouldn't say I made it worse,

(46:50):
because I actually made it better. It was better than
where it started. Yeah, so I was here and then
I shot way over here.

Speaker 2 (46:57):
Past the target, past the targets all the time, and
then I.

Speaker 1 (47:00):
Cut a few of those things out, and then then
I had a better target. So I guess that statement
was inaccurate because I did improve it well.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
And you brought up something important too, which is having
outside counsel. Ye, And I think you know the sort
of myth of the artist who works alone is another thing, right.
I mean, I still send my poems to the same
person I've been sending my poems to since I was
twenty two years old, and she sends her poems to me,
and I don't take every bit of advice she gives.

(47:29):
She doesn't take every bit of advice that I give.
But I think it's another sort of important thing, is
that we don't live in a vacuum, we don't create
in a vacuum, and so inviting other people in as
we're comfortable to our process, like those trusted people, we
can just like, hey, would you take a look at
this and tell me like, am I way off base?

Speaker 4 (47:49):
Or do you understand? Or do you have questions? Are
you curious about things? Are there other things you would
like to know? If you have people who you can
do that with, I think that's what a gift.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
Yeah. I always read the acknowledgments in books, and the
reason I read them is because it does shatter that
myth of the individual artist you just read. I mean
sometimes I end up being like, how do people have
this many great people in their life? And then I
end up feeling bad about myself Exactly. I couldn't get
anybody to read this damn thing. But seriously, you just

(48:24):
realize like even a book that at least parts of
it are a solitary endeavor by yourself, writing is ultimately
a collaborative process. And I think that's beautiful to see.
And that's why I do it, because it reminds me
of that, and it reminds me that what I sit
down and come up with because I can look at

(48:44):
it objectively and be like, this is not yet good.

Speaker 4 (48:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (48:48):
I don't think that's being hard on myself. I think
that's just objective and I don't quite yet know how
to make it better. But I can get other people
involved who can help me with that. Of yours is
about connection, and so this is one way of thinking
about connection, the other people in our communities that can
support us. But you talk about connecting in some other ways,

(49:10):
some other aspects of connection. You want to talk about
that for a second.

Speaker 2 (49:14):
Well, I mean, speaking of a solitary artist, I don't
think any of us create alone, do we. I mean
everything that you have written in your book is because
of experiences you have had, conversations you have had with
other people, other books you've read, teachers and mentors who
have guided you, and the same for me. It's like

(49:35):
when I sit down to write. Even if I'm writing
about my own experience literally by myself, I'm not yes,
because I'm having a conversation with me five years ago.
I'm having a conversation with me as a child. I'm
having a conversation with the books that I read that
kind of pave the way or gave me permission to

(49:55):
structure my book in this way, or to tell this
kind of vulnerable story. Worry, I have my mentors and
my teachers sitting on my shoulders whispering like no, don't
say it like that, say it like this in my ear,
And if I'm lucky, I have other people to bounce
things off of. So I think, whenever we're making things,

(50:16):
even if those things aren't art, even if those things
are relationships or opportunities or whatever it is in our lives,
none of that is happening in a disconnected way. I
know you enough to know you absolutely agree with that.

Speaker 1 (50:30):
Yeah. Yeah, I think it's great to remember it though, Yeah,
and consciously call it to mind, because even as you
were just describing that, it made sitting down in front
of the page and working on it feel less lonely. Yes,
it's absolutely true. You know, none of us in anything
we do are not infinitely woven into the fabric of

(50:51):
everything that is right. That's just the way things are, ye,
And it's comforting to remember that. I also love how
you talk about it different type of connection, which is
that in creation you are connecting things. Yeah, you're building bridges,
you're creating metaphors. But it's a connective process.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
Yeah, especially for people who are like, oh gosh, metaphor,
Like I think, other than line breaks, that's the part
of poetry that makes people uncomfortable. They're like, oh, how
am I supposed to know how to build a metaphor?
That seems like such an odd thing to do. First
of all, it's so baked into our language. We're doing
it all the time. If you're giving a talk in
front of an office full of people and you think

(51:32):
of a sea of faces, that's a metaphor.

Speaker 4 (51:35):
So we're doing it constantly.

Speaker 2 (51:37):
But I'm always telling students, like pretty much writing anything
that has to do with building bridges or making connections,
it's a two step process, and it's incredibly basic, and
breaking it down like this I think takes some of
the fear.

Speaker 4 (51:49):
Out of it.

Speaker 2 (51:49):
It's a sensory experience b comparison.

Speaker 4 (51:54):
That's all it is.

Speaker 2 (51:55):
Like if you could boil down like the magic of
metaphor in a poem to that that's what it is.
You go outside and you look at a sycamore and
you notice that the bark of the side of a
sycamore tree looks like little blobs of different colors. You know,
it's kind of modeled a little green and a little
white and a little gray. So you're making a visual connection.
You describe it for yourself, and then you make the

(52:17):
leap to a simple question, which is what does that
remind me of? That's it, what does that remind me of?
For me, it reminds me of a paint by number
painting where every one is green and every two is gray,
and every three is ivory and every four is yellow.
And so I have a poem that describes sycamore bark
is paint by number bark.

Speaker 4 (52:37):
It's not rocket science.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
It's looking at something, describing it, and then taking it
the extra step to ask yourself.

Speaker 4 (52:44):
What does that remind me of?

Speaker 2 (52:46):
Like?

Speaker 4 (52:46):
What does that look like? Sound like?

Speaker 2 (52:48):
Oh, that bird's making a weird noise, what does that
remind me of? Oh, it sounds like someone striking the
key of a manual typewriter.

Speaker 4 (52:56):
Oh, there's that.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
So it's not the muse coming down and a lightning strike.
It's noticing things, which we all have the capacity to do,
noticing things, having a sensory experience in the world, and
then just asking yourself the question, how can I connect
this to a prior experience or another image or another sound,

(53:19):
and then just tying those little two things together and
maybe that makes it seem a little less I don't know,
tricky or academic.

Speaker 1 (53:28):
I want to explore that, but my brain just got
stuck on something. So let's just clear it out. And
this is a total only for me question. You and
I both love sycamore trees. We've discussed this in the past,
and you told me one time on a walk that
it's not only sycamore trees I'm seeing, it's something else
that is like a sycamore. And every time I see

(53:49):
a sycamore, this question comes in my mind, like what
was that other tree? So I have to know now,
can just please solve my problem?

Speaker 4 (53:57):
It's called a London plane plane.

Speaker 1 (54:00):
I knew it had something to do with Europe.

Speaker 2 (54:02):
They're cousins, Okay, I think they have slightly different seed pods,
but their bark looks the same. One is typically found
in parks and forest one is typically found along city streets.
If you call with a sycamore and as a London plane,
probably no one's going to call you out.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
I get it. It's just been eating at me for
like a year and a half.

Speaker 4 (54:22):
Now, I love that, but I've been rent free.

Speaker 1 (54:28):
Yeah, exactly, exactly, all right. So we were talking about
connection metaphor. You also another connection that you talk about
making in the book, and I thought this was another
beautiful one and you sort of said it, but you're
having a conversation with your own mind. That's a type
of connection too, right, a connection to ourselves. And that's
one of the great things I think that art can

(54:50):
help us do, both other people's art and our own,
is make that internal connection to ourselves.

Speaker 4 (54:56):
Oh totally.

Speaker 2 (54:57):
I mean again, when I'm writing, I'm you ually technically alone,
but I don't feel alone. I feel like I'm kind
of catching up with an old friend, and that old
friend is me, And if I haven't had quality time
with myself in a while, I can find my way
to that person by picking up a pen and sitting

(55:18):
down with a piece of paper because I know she's
there kind of waiting for me to have my hangout
session with her. So yeah, I mean, I I don't
feel alone when I'm writing. I feel like I'm having
a conversation with my mind on paper. I feel like
I'm having a conversation that is contextualized by all of

(55:40):
the other art that I have engaged with.

Speaker 4 (55:43):
That is like kind of.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Informing what I'm making I feel the other people who
have informed the way that I do things with me.
I mean, the way that I describe it is writing
for me is like coming home to myself. That's the
best way that I can describe it in like the
quickest hand. If I'm feeling stressed, if I feel just
like a little self estranged, it's like a weird way

(56:08):
to say it, but.

Speaker 1 (56:09):
You know what I mean, it's a beautiful turn of phrase.
I get it.

Speaker 2 (56:12):
Yeah, when I'm feeling a little self estranged, or maybe
the circumstances of my life feel very busy and hectic
and there's a lot of clamor and I can't kind
of find that person I know is there. Writing brings
me home to the sort of core me of me

(56:32):
and even if I'm working really hard and I'm frustrated
and it's not coming out the way that I want,
It's still a really pleasurable experience for me because it
is that kind of homecoming.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
That's beautiful, and a wise person might end on that
really high note, but I am not. But I am not,
because well, I think this is going to take it
to a higher note. But I could be wrong, because
you pressure, you share, not on you. You share a word.
Apparently we both love sycamores and London planes and several

(57:09):
musical acts, but we both also love the word shenanigans.
Oh I've never met another shenanigan lover. Well, Chris is
we both love that word? Why is that a great word?
And what about shenanigans do you love?

Speaker 4 (57:22):
Okay?

Speaker 2 (57:22):
I love that you and Chris both love shenanigans, and
knowing you both, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah,
just frankly, that makes a lot of sense. I have
no idea, like why I love that word so much
is probably why I like the word bamboozled. Like there
are some words that are just like they feel good
in the mouth, They're texturally interesting, and there's a kind

(57:45):
of playfulness to the word itself, like it's almost like
autumn on apea, Like shenanigans sounds.

Speaker 4 (57:52):
Like what it is?

Speaker 2 (57:53):
Yes, doesn't it sound like a little mischievous trouble but
like yeah, but fun mischievous trouble.

Speaker 4 (57:59):
Yes, Like it sounds like what.

Speaker 2 (58:01):
It is, like like buzz for a bee shenanigans.

Speaker 4 (58:06):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Maybe it's like growing up in a family that was,
you know, mostly Irish and full of shenanigans. But yeah,
I just love that word. But I mean, eric, I
love words.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
So before we wrap up, I want you to think
about this. Have you ever ended the day feeling like
your choices didn't quite match the person you wanted to be?
Maybe it was autopilot mode or self doubt that made
it harder to stick to your goals. And that's exactly
why I created The Six Saboteurs of Self Control. It's

(58:39):
a free guide to help you recognize the hidden patterns
that hold you back and give you simple, effective strategies
to break through them. If you're ready to take back
control and start making lasting changes, download your copy now
at oneufeed dot net. Slash ebook Let's make those shifts
happen starting today, net slash ebook. Yes, it's a great word,

(59:04):
but talk to me about why this is important in
what we've been discussing, both the creative life and life
in general.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Yeah, play right, I mean, just loosening your white knuckled
grip on what you're doing. I know a lot of
people who love to read, and I know a lot
of people who love to write, and even some of.

Speaker 4 (59:23):
Those people are scared of poems.

Speaker 2 (59:27):
And I think it's because they seem like, oh, I
don't know if I'm like, I don't understand what's going
on in there.

Speaker 4 (59:33):
It feels like a riddle. It feels like something I
have to solve.

Speaker 2 (59:35):
I don't know what the author quote unquote really means,
Like there's like a trapdoor under the poem and the
meaning is hidden, but I don't.

Speaker 4 (59:42):
Have the code.

Speaker 2 (59:44):
And I think approaching writing and particularly poetry with more
of a sense of fun and play and sort of
creative mischief, it helps make the act more fun. But
I think from the outside, I think it helps readers
and gain age with the work in a different way,
Like if you come to a poem the way you

(01:00:05):
come to a song, wouldn't that be better? Like when
we're listening to the records we love or seeing a
band that we love. You're not thinking, oh, what does
that Deep Sea Diver song mean?

Speaker 4 (01:00:19):
What does that MJ. Linderman song mean?

Speaker 2 (01:00:23):
What you're thinking is like, oh my gosh, I love
that or those I love the words, or I love
the melody, or that reminds me of writing in the
car with the windows down when I was sixteen and X,
Y and Z.

Speaker 4 (01:00:35):
I mean we're.

Speaker 2 (01:00:36):
Able to kind of let it wash over us and
we have an experience that is emotional and intuitive and
like visceral, bodily and has nothing to do with being
tested on what it means or having to explicate it right, Like, yeah,
we can have all kinds of shenanigans with songs, but

(01:00:59):
I would advocate that we should be engaging with particularly poetry,
because I think that's the genre that has the image problem.
I think we should be engaging with poetry at the
same level that we're engaging with music, which is letting
it wash over us, having a sensory experience, asking ourselves
what it makes us, remember, think about want to do,

(01:01:22):
who you might want to share it with, and know
that you don't have to get it. Yep, you don't
have to know what it means. I don't even know
what some of my poems quote unquote mean. I wrote them.
I know what they're grappling with. I know what their
concerns are. No, I could not summarize them for you
and cliff notes style, and nor is that required. So

(01:01:46):
why can't we just, you know, have some shenanigans when
it comes to poetry.

Speaker 1 (01:01:51):
That's my infomercial, Eric, it's a good infomercial. You talk
about coming to the page, to the canvas, to the stage,
to the studio. I would say, to life with trickster
energy and a sense of daring, and again back to
where I started. I wish I had read this book
a while ago, because that is a great frame to
come to something that I'm working on like this, right,

(01:02:13):
It's a there's a mindset to it. It's why I
love the word shenanigans, because it does give me just
that sort of trickster energy and a sense of daring.

Speaker 2 (01:02:22):
You're wrestling with something alive, but it's not your adversary. Yep,
that's not an adversarial relationship. You and the thing that
you're making. You are co creating this thing with this
idea and so it's like a beautiful wrestling with this
other thing, and it should feel good. And if it
doesn't feel good, something's wrong.

Speaker 1 (01:02:42):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (01:02:43):
I think that and hard work can feel good. I
don't mean it should feel easy. That's not at all
what I mean. Yes, it doesn't necessarily have to feel easy,
but it should feel invigorating.

Speaker 1 (01:02:55):
Yep. Well, that is a beautiful place to wrap up.
Thank you, Maggie. I love talking with you on the show,
and I'm happy that you were able to come back
in much success with the new book.

Speaker 4 (01:03:03):
Thank you so much.

Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Thank you so much for listening to the show. If
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(01:03:26):
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