The Happiness Formula: Using Your Body to Transform Your Mind with Janice Kaplan

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Go to a farmer's market and buy a fruit that
you've never tasted, and taste that. I think there are
so many ways that we can awaken our experiences. Our
brains again great as they are. As we've been saying,
like to let things go, and it's much easier for
our brains if everything is the same. They don't have
to pay attention.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers
have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't

(00:49):
have instead of what we do. We think things that
hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
and createive effort to make a life worth living. This
podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.

Speaker 3 (01:11):
There's a common idea out in the self help psychology
world that our thoughts create our reality, and while that
is true, some of the time, it's not the full story.

Speaker 1 (01:22):
Because what about those.

Speaker 3 (01:23):
Mornings where you wake up feeling off before you've even
had a thought, or the days when your mood shifts
just because you stood up a little straighter. Those are
certainly experiences I've had that have made me wonder well,
are my thoughts the whole thing? And that's where today's guest,
Janis Kaplan comes In her latest book, What Your Body
Knows About Happiness, reveals something surprising. Your body is also

(01:46):
shaping your emotions, often before your brain even catches up.
We dig into why posture and movement and even the
weight of a clipboard can influence how you feel. For me,
this conversation put words to something I've sensed for years.
Bodies aren't just reacting to our emotions, they're helping create them.
It gives credence to one of my favorite phrases, which

(02:07):
is sometimes you can't think your way into right action.
You have to act your way into right thinking. And
once we understand that, we can start using our bodies
to change our minds. H'm Eric Zimmer and this is
the one you feed.

Speaker 4 (02:23):
Hi.

Speaker 3 (02:23):
Janis, Welcome to the show.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Thanks Eric, it's a pleasure to be here.

Speaker 3 (02:26):
We are in our studio in Columbus, Ohio, and you
are with me, So that is always a pleasure when
we get to do these in person. So I appreciate
you coming over to do this. You're in town to
give a talk for your latest book, which is called
What Your Body Knows About Happiness, How do you use
your body to change your mind? And you'll be talking
tonight at the library about that. And that's what we're

(02:47):
going to be talking about right now. But before we do,
let's start, like we always do, with the parable. In
the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild
and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside
of us that are always One is a good wolf,
which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and
the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed

(03:09):
and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops. They think
about it for a second. They look up at their grandparents.
They say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says,
the one you feed. So I'd like to start off
by asking you how that parable applies to you your
life and the work that you do.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
I absolutely love that parable and It's one of the
reasons I wanted to talk to you. It's such a
perfect way of talking about so many things that matter,
and I had not heard it, frankly, before I discovered
it through you, But I realized that it's very much
what I've been talking about and writing about for years,
because the book I did, the Gratitude Diaries, was really

(03:47):
about that idea that it's how we look at events,
it's what we bring to the world. It's what we
bring to the experiences that we have that matters, and
we spend so much time thinking that it's the events
that are shaping us, and in truth, there are always
different ways to look at them, and always different things

(04:07):
that you can get from them. And as your parable suggests,
it's really up to you whether it's going to be
the good or the bad, whether you're going to look
back on a day and say, what a great day
I had or what a terrible day I had. And
I think once you realize that you have that control
and that you have that power over your life, it
makes a big difference.

Speaker 4 (04:25):
Right.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
I always like to think of it is it's not
the events themselves exclusively. It's not only how we think
about them. It's a co creation. The things that happened
to us matter in life, and how we respond to
them matters often far more absolutely.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
And when you think about there are certain people who
you know that if they're going to get sick, they're
going to tell you how horrible it is. They're going
to be sick for a week, They're going to be
complaining endlessly. And there are other people who are just
going to say, yeah, I'm okay, and who are just
going to move on. And of course there are terrible
things that happen, and of course there are terrible circumstances

(05:05):
that people go through, and I certainly never ever would
undermine that. But I was so struck when I wrote
and get to my new book soon. But when I
wrote The Gratitude Diaries, and I toured extensively and talked
extensively with that book, and I knew that when I
wrote that book, it was about bringing my life from
good to better. I've had a good life, and I
don't pretend otherwise. But I spoke to so many people

(05:28):
who would come up and thank me and tell me
how the book or the sense of gratitude had helped
them through. And they would tell me these dreadful situations,
health issues, suicide, family tragedies, and I was always so
moved by that to realize that, yeah, you got to
wake up the next morning, you have to put your
feet out of head the next morning, and you get

(05:50):
to figure out how you're going to feel when you
do that.

Speaker 3 (05:52):
Yeah, it's interesting because mindset stuff like this or self
help or however we want to categorize it. In the
political dialogue of the last few years and I'm not
going to go into politics, is presented as something that
is for the privileged. And I understand what people are
saying by that, right, like if you're going to meditate
an hour a day, it's a privilege to have the

(06:14):
time to be able to meditate for an hour a day,
et cetera. But I think if we look back at
and it's the reason why I am and I think
a lot of people are inspired by people like Victor Frankel,
who is showing these same ideas were helpful in the
furthest thing from privilege you could possibly have in a
concentration camp, right, These things were useful and valuable there,

(06:36):
and so they are ways of looking at and thinking
about the world that serve us regardless of where we are,
and I think that painting these things out to be
things that are only for the privileged is the wrong
way to look at it. Again, I understand what's being said,
but I think it sends a message that people who
aren't don't have time for this stuff, and I think
we all have time to at least reflect on how

(06:58):
we view the world and respond to it.

Speaker 1 (07:01):
I completely agree, And some years ago I co authored
a book with a woman who had had a truly
terrible tragedy in her life in New York. It was
known as the Wrong Way on the Taconic Accident. It
was a pretty famous accident that there were documentaries about it,
and the woman's three children had been in the backseat
of a car driven by her sister in law. The

(07:22):
woman went the wrong way on a highway in New
York and the three children were killed. Can you imagine
anything more horrible? Somebody connected us together. We met and
the first time we met, she was suicidal, as you
can imagine, her three small children had just been killed.
She was a very religious woman and frankly, she wanted
to go join them in heaven. And as we were talking,

(07:43):
she was so frail and so fragile. And then at
some point she said, and I'm so grateful to my
friends because after this happened, they came over every single
day and I'm so filled with gratitude to them. And
I couldn't have gotten through if not for them. And
she was going on and on about her gratitude to
her friend friends. And this was well before I wrote
the Gratitude Diaries, but I think it was one of

(08:03):
the things that stuck with me and then inspired me afterwards,
because I thought, if somebody in this position can use
the word gratitude, then who can't.

Speaker 3 (08:13):
And I think that speaks to like a really important truth,
which is that you can be in a huge amount
of pain and you can also be grateful for certain things,
Like we can have multiple coexisting emotions or feelings about things. Right,
she was on one hand despairing, on another hand starting

(08:34):
to see like, oh, well, this part of it is okay,
this part of it's good.

Speaker 1 (08:38):
Yes, And being grateful doesn't mean accepting things as they are.

Speaker 3 (08:43):
Right.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
If there are things that you can go out and change,
if there are events that you can change in your
life or in the world, or in any way, go
out and do them. But if not, we have to
take stock and see where we are. And appreciating where
you are at the moment doesn't mean you don't want
things to be better going forward. And what you were
saying about happiness being an advantage of the privileged, we're

(09:06):
always looking at people who have more than us, and
we don't do a very good job at looking at
the people who have less than us. And think about
all the people who were looking at you, or any
of your listeners, or any of the people who think
that they don't have enough and are saying, boy, I
wish I were in your position. So turn it around
that way and it gives you a different perspective.

Speaker 3 (09:24):
So let's now turn our attention to your latest book.
And you tell a story early on about how gratitude
was useful to you in a situation, but you realized
it wasn't the whole story. Maybe walk us through that story,
which sort of is the origin of where this book
came from.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Right, Well, I had written the Gratitude Diaries, and I
do believe the things about reframing situations looking at things
from a different perspective actually do work. And I'm not
going to have anybody's sympathy. As I tell this story,
because I was going on a vacation one day, but
it was one of those days where you feel like
everything is going wrong. You know, you lose your luggage

(10:02):
and the everything feels like it's going wrong. And I
was standing in a very small airport and I was
trying to do those gratitude games that I had taught myself, like, well,
my luggage is lost, but I'm grateful because I have
a bathing suit in my carry on, so it's going
to be okay. And you know, my husband was teasing
me about it, but I was trying really hard. We're

(10:22):
on vacation. I don't want to be negative. And cut
to we get to we were actually going to an island.
As I said, nobody's going to have sympathy for me
on this story. And so I'm on a boat and
all of a sudden, I felt differently. All of a sudden,
the sun was shining, the water was drifting by, and
I suddenly felt happy, and I realized I didn't have

(10:43):
to do any of those reframing, rethinking gratitude games. I
suddenly felt different, and I thought, what just happened? And
how can I put myself in situations where that happens again,
and the epiphany, if you want to call it, was
that our bodies are constantly sending information to our brains,

(11:04):
and we don't realize the power that our bodies have
to change how we feel, to change the happiness we feel,
to change the joy or despair that we feel in
a moment.

Speaker 3 (11:13):
Yeah, I've thought about this ever since we started the show,
and it's a question that I've asked in a thousand
different permeations over time, because it's the question of one
view of emotion is that thoughts cause emotion. And we
all know what that's like. If you told me right
now that our podcast had just been canceled from iHeart,

(11:34):
I would feel terrible. Right, my thought would cause a feeling,
you know, the information. But it seemed to me that
it also went the other way, Like there were days
that I would wake up and before I'd had a
conscious thought, it was like the weather just inside fell off,
and then my thoughts all took on the color of

(11:54):
whatever that internal feeling was. And so I was like,
so it's clearly not a one way thoughts to emotion
or thoughts to body sensation. There's clearly feedback going on
back and forth, and so you sort of talk about
you have a line early on that I think is great.
You say, the connections between body and brain are thrillingly complex.
You have a lot of great both personal stories and

(12:17):
studies throughout the book that show, wow, you know there
really is this connection that goes both ways. Tell me
one or two that feel thrilling to you. The thrillingly
complex aspect.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Of this, Well, there are so many into just first
to pick up on what you just said about how
you feel, and which comes first. It goes back one
hundred years ago to William James, the psychologist and philosopher
who gave the example of your walking down the street
or I guess you're walking through the woods in his case,
and you see a bear, or I like to tell
that story if you live in you know I live
in New York. You're walking down the street and you

(12:51):
get to a dark alley and all of a sudden,
your heart is pounding, your hands are sweaty, and you
feel scared. So the question is do you feel scared
because your heart is pounding or is your heart pounding
because you feel scared? Well, most of us are brain centric,
and we think, I see the bear, or I see
the dark alley. I get scared. It makes my heart

(13:11):
start pounding. Now we're talking about obviously split milliseconds here,
but the newest research seems to suggest that it works
the opposite way. That your body responds first, and your
brain is constantly scanning your body, and your brain is
going ooh, chest pounding, hand sweaty. I think we're scared.
We better do something and run away from that year. Now,

(13:33):
obviously it happens a lot faster than that, but people
get very dubious about that because they want to think
their brains are in control. But we know that the
body has a lot of power. If you touch a
hot stove, you're going to pull your hand back well
before you can think about it. If you run into
the street and a car is coming at you, you're
gonna be happy that your body knows to leave that

(13:54):
scene well before your brain can even register that the
car is coming. You really don't want your brain to
have to tell your eyes to blink nine thousand times
a day, and what would happen while you were asleep
to your breathing. So we implicitly understand that things like
that occur, But on a bigger level, we forget that
our brain, brilliant as it is, is just a three

(14:17):
pound blob sitting in a very dark skull, and it
is completely reliant on the sensations, on the environment, on
the information that it's being fed.

Speaker 3 (14:27):
Yep. I think that it's important to talk about the
role the body plays in comparison to the brain, because,
as you said, we're so brain centric. More and more
as I think about this, I start to think we're
dividing these things into two things and they're not. Our
brain is a part of our body. It's all wired up,

(14:49):
like we keep dividing them. Again, I think there are
useful ways of you know, for making that distinction, But
I also think it makes a lot of sense to
just think of this as a unified system. I mean,
we'll get to some of this in the book. When
you start to realize, like how pain both comes from
a sensation in your body but is also process and
amplified in your brain, you realize that you can't separate

(15:10):
these two things from each other.

Speaker 1 (15:12):
It's a body brain partnership, and you're right, it's a
very tight partnership. Let me give you a couple of
examples of stories that really surprised me. That was kind
of fun research. There's one that was done out of
Yale by a professor named John Barge, and he gave
people either a cup of hot coffee to cold or
an iced coffee to hold, and they didn't realize that

(15:33):
this was even part of the experiment. It was while
they were in the elevator on the way up to
his lab, and then they were asked to evaluate how
they felt about certain people. And the people who were
given the hot coffee to hold describe the people as
being kinder and warmer than the people who were given
the iced coffee to hold. Now this seems crazy, right,

(15:53):
But what's happening is that somehow the sensation of warmth
is sending a message to your brain of warmth, and
your brain is misinterpreting that or holding onto that as
it's evaluating the person. There was a similar study that
was done with resumes, where people were given resumes to evaluate.
Now that's a kind of standard psychological test, and if

(16:14):
I gave you a resume to look at FAD, you
knew this was an experiment. You'd think as she's testing
for unconscious bias, and I'm not going to get tricked
by the name or where the person lives or anything
like that. What you might not think of would be
the weight of the clipboard on which the resume was sitting.
And it turned out that the people who were given

(16:35):
the resumes on heavy clipboards found the people as being
more serious and better potential candidates than the people who
got them on light clipboards. What is it? Maybe the
body metaphor was heavyweight versus lightweight. And you know, there
are stories like that that go on and on, and
the research is actually really good and really impressive.

Speaker 3 (16:54):
Yeah, things like that are just amazing because we think
we are these creatures of a great deal of rationality,
and we are influenced by so many things we just
don't understand, and we don't understand how they go together.
We don't understand how the way to the clipboard interacts
with how I feel this morning. And so when I

(17:16):
think about all that, I learned to take my mental
perceptions hold them a little bit more loosely, you know, like,
how did I arrive at this conclusion? It's probably not
as straightforward as I thought.

Speaker 1 (17:26):
Well, it's great that you think that, and you're aware
of it because we're not usually aware of it. There
was another study that intrigued me. It was out of
a business school, a professor who is now at the
University of Michigan, and he was looking at negotiations. He
was having people negotiate for a car, and I was
theoretically of course, but during these car negotiations, he found
that when people were sitting on hard chairs, they negotiated

(17:50):
harder than when they were sitting on soft chairs. So
what's going on there? Well, maybe when you're sitting on
a hard chair, you're feeling edgy, there's some message that's
coming from your body and your life a little bit tenser,
and maybe you're a little more on edge physically, and
so you respond by negotiating harder. When you're sitting back
in the soft chair, you're comfortable, soft chair, soft hard
Who knows? And so if you ask the people when

(18:13):
they were negotiating, what influenced you, nowhere on.

Speaker 3 (18:16):
The list would a chair, right, Yeah, you'd never think
of it, And if you realized it, you initially might
be appalled. Right. I think about these fundamental things that
affect us that we don't think about. Now. One that
I do know affects us. But I was just talking
with my partner about it last night, and I've used
this on the show a number of times, but it
is how easily even the smallest amount of friction causes

(18:43):
you to do or not do something. The classic example
I give is my guitar. If my guitar is on
the stand, I'm going to play it like ten times
more than if it's in the same spot in a
case right next to it. That's ridiculous. It takes three
seconds to open the case. I mean, like, what kind
of weird animal am I that that's the case. But

(19:04):
I've learned not to fight it because it's unquestionably true.
And so I think the point of learning some of
these and I think we're going to get into a
lot of them as we go into your book, is
we can learn these little things that we can do
with our bodies that are going to change how we
feel overall.

Speaker 4 (19:19):
Right.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
You know, it's a very cold day here in Columbus,
it is, and if we had not had this lovely
session scheduled, I would not have left my hotel room
this morning.

Speaker 3 (19:31):
Right.

Speaker 1 (19:32):
You know, friction, certainly, weather influences how we behave, how
we feel sure. I think that one we're usually a
little more aware of at least.

Speaker 3 (20:02):
So let's talk about how your body can make you happier.
What are things we can do with our body that
can improve our moods.

Speaker 1 (20:14):
Well, some of the things are really small, and we
can do it right now. Everybody who's listening. Sit up
a little bit straighter. Our stand up a little bit straighter.
There's really good research showing that when you sit up straight,
you are able to access positive emotions much more easily.
When you're depressed, you naturally slouch. And so if you're slouched,
just because that's how you're sitting, as your brain, as

(20:36):
we said before, is scanning your body, it's going ooh, slouched,
we must not be feeling so good today, And it
becomes very easy to access negative emotions when you're in
that position. And simply sit up a little straighter and
it'll give you more access to positive feelings. There's been
great research about smiling, and it goes way back to

(20:57):
an early study that I'm sure you're familiar with, where
people were told to put a wooden pencil in their mouth,
and some of them held it in such a way
that it made their facial muscles in a smiling position
and some in this bounding position, and the people who
were smiling ended up being happier and finding things funnier.
And that research has challenged a lot. It's been done

(21:18):
over and over again, but I think there are now
one hundred and twenty eight studies around the world that
have been looked at and it really holds up to
be true. Now, you would like to think that your
brain is smart enough to know the difference between a
real smile and a wooden pencil in your mouth, but
in fact it's kind of not. There's something called the
facial feedback hypothesis, which says that the muscles in our

(21:41):
face are constantly sending information and that's one of the
ways our brains are figuring out how we feel. Well.

Speaker 3 (21:47):
It's one of the reasons that I'm not going to
get this exactly right, but that botox can be used
as an antidepressant because you can't frown with it right.
It takes away your ability to make the frown, which
somehow makes you better. And I'm always amazed by that
smile one and again we're not talking about like I
smile and my problems melt away. Right, we're talking about

(22:09):
it's just a subtle thing. But I'm a big believer
in feedback loops. I'm a big believer in upward and
downward spirals, And if I feel a little bit better
from a smile, then I might just feel good enough
to do the next thing that I need to do
that's going to be good for me, which is going
to then amplify that. One of my mantras is little

(22:31):
by little, a little becomes a lot. And so this
idea of yeah, sure, a smile that makes you feel
a little bit better, so what But it can be
the beginning and you do that often enough and it
turns into something really different.

Speaker 1 (22:43):
I think that's a really good point to make, which
is that we're not talking about dramatic changes in feeling
or behavior by any of this, but it's really for
most of us, it's those small changes on the edges
that do make a difference. And I love that idea
that you're suggesting that it all builds on itself, and
that's absolutely true. I just mentioned the cold, but one
of the other things that does make a difference that

(23:05):
we can do with our bodies is to go outside.
One of the big findings is that people feel better
in nature. Your well being improves very dramatically when you're outside,
and it happens to be that when you're near water.
One study found that people who were near water two
hours a week felt better and improve their well being.
And it doesn't have to be by the ocean, if

(23:27):
you're by a pond or a lake or a stream,
or if you're somewhere inland and there's no such thing
yet work. I was going to suggest just get one
of those little electric windmills, you know waterfalls, those waterfalls
that you can put in your living room and plug in.
I try that. I actually think it's very calming. There's
something about water that has a very calming effect.

Speaker 3 (23:48):
Yeah. You reference in this chapter about you know how
our body can make us happy. I always say her
name wrong, but marvelous miss masl myself.

Speaker 1 (23:59):
I think it's missus me Basil.

Speaker 4 (24:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (24:01):
You know they have a line in there tits up
because what her manager says to her before she goes
out on stage. But it's really true, like you kind
of perk up a little bit, and you know, stand
in a certain way makes a difference.

Speaker 1 (24:13):
Right, Yeah, standing up straight, presenting yourself that you feel
good tells your brain that you do feel good. It's
very interesting that we are able to change how we feel,
but we can't necessarily change the best at our body
is sending. So let me give you an example about that.
If you're like missus Masel and you're going out to

(24:33):
do a stand up act and you're suddenly nervous about it,
and you're again we're back to the chest pounding. If
you tell yourself, oh, I'm actually calm, everything is fine,
your brain is not going to buy that, right, brain
is just not buying it. It's going excuse me, chest bounding, hand, sweaty.
I don't think you're calm. But you can turn it around.
You can take those symptoms and you say, well, what

(24:55):
else do those symptoms mean? Those symptoms also mean excitement,
So so hey, I'm really excited to go out on
this stage. And so if you're interpreting those symptoms as
anxiety and you're slouched over and you're scared and you're tense,
that's going to be one presentation as you get on stage.
But if you use body and brain and let your
brain say okay, no, this is excitement and excitement means

(25:19):
stand up, be ready, strut out on stage. Then that's
going to be a completely different presentation.

Speaker 3 (25:25):
Yeah, And I think that's the thing that I come
back to as I go through your book again and again,
is this dance between the two because what you just
described there as a cognitive approach to a feeling that's
coming up. Right, the feeling is generating something, but I'm
choosing to think about that feeling in a particular way.
And yet there's plenty of other cases where we've talked

(25:46):
about where there's a signal coming that never even becomes conscious,
that is affecting us. And so it's how do we
use our body and our brain? And I think it
brings together your two books to make ourselves feel beat.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Yes, And I think so often we just don't have
that awareness. For most people, we live entirely in our brains,
and so we're not aware of those signals that are coming.
And so, yeah, some of them are so subtle that
it's really hard to understand, like the hot coffee we
were talking about before, for the hard chair, but being
able to put yourself in a position where you do say, okay,

(26:21):
this is how I'm feeling, But how can I give
that a little twist that's going to make this situation better.
And you know that works. If you're going in to
ask your boss for a raise, or if you're giving
a toast at a friend's wedding, think of it a
little bit differently. Think, no, I'm not worried that I'm
going to blow this toast and be embarrassed and everybody'll
laugh at me. I'm feeling this way because I care

(26:42):
about these people and I want to do my best,
and I want to let them know how much I
love them.

Speaker 3 (26:46):
And my body's preparing me for action. Right. This body
piece is why I've dealt with depression on and off
throughout my adult life. It's been largely well managed once
I kind of got out of my twenties. I use
a lot of different things to work with it. But
if you forced me to say you only get one, Eric,
you can only have one, the one I would choose

(27:06):
would be exercise, which is a body thing. But it's
that because when I exercise, my body feels better, which
then the signal that's going to my brain is a
more positive signal. And we can see the exact opposite
that when you're sick, My brain turns particularly dark when
I'm sick, right, I just have to tell myself, like,

(27:28):
just don't believe your brain today, you're sick. No time
for existential crisis, no big decisions, just And it's all because,
to use the term that you use in your book,
the entoception, my internal sense of how my body feels
feels lousy, and that translates to lousy in the brain.

Speaker 1 (27:46):
Absolutely. And I so agree with you about the exercise
of depression. And there's been a lot of studies on
that and it is very, very powerful. And of course
when you're feeling depressed getting yourself up to exercise, it's
a it's a I agree and even I find it,
you know, even when I'm not in a bad mood,

(28:07):
just making myself exercise is sometimes hard, and I always
wonder why, because as soon as I do it, as
soon as I get in from a walk or get
off the treadmill or the elliptical or the exercise bike
or whatever I've used that day, I feel great.

Speaker 3 (28:20):
I asked that question for years on the podcast because
I was like, every time I do it, I feel better.
Every single time, I'm like, I'm glad I did that.
You would think if you understand reward learning theory, that
I would run to exercise. I think that what I've
gotten from evolutionary psychologists is sort of even more important

(28:41):
than reward learning theory. Is basic like law of leased effort.
Like as an animal, your job is to conserve energy,
and anything that takes a big amount of energy is
going to face some degree of resistance.

Speaker 1 (28:55):
Right, And I talk about that in the book too.
There's a wonderful book called Exercised by a professor at
Harvard who is an anthropologist, and he looks at that
and you know, he explains that any hunter gatherer worth
his salt would not run a marathon. You know, that's
just a crazy thing to do.

Speaker 3 (29:13):
Precisely, you've got to be balancing reward versus effort. You know,
You've got a great story in the book that shows
how our physical response often precedes our brain. And it
has to do with you and your husband in a
car together. Would you share that story with us?

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yeah, my husband hates that story, but he's not here,
but it's absolutely true because he is usually the driver
when we're in the car, and he's a good driver.
But you know, when you're driving a lot or I
guess when you're a guy driving, you tend to sometimes
drive a little too faster, get a little too close
to a car, and I will always gasp when he's

(29:53):
too close or he puts on the break, I'll go
and it really annoys him. Sure, it just annoys him.
And as I was doing this book, I realized that
what I have always known, but I now had the
research to show it. I'm not gasping on purpose. I'm
not thinking first, oh my goodness, you're going too fast,
or you know, got a little close to that car,

(30:14):
and then gasping to give him the information. My body
is responding. My body is responding in a moment of fear. Now,
if I could actually stop that gasp before it happened,
I would because it's not worth the argument that follows
in the car. Right, But yes, that is an example.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
That's a great example. Like if I'm in the passenger
seat and somebody's driving in a particular way, there are
times I cannot help my foot like mimicking it's on
the brake, pedal, right, it just does it because it's
just you know, that's the habitual response.

Speaker 4 (30:46):
Right.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
The other funny thing with driving is the opposite of
that or sort of what you're describing that physical response
where I talk about I think I tell the story
in the Book of Driving and there was a small
child in the back seat with me and he was saying,
which is the break? Is it on the right or
the left? And I'm trying to drive and uh, okay,
I guess it's uh And now are you putting your

(31:07):
foot on the brake? Are you putting it on the
left foot of the right foot? And you completely cannot
drive when somebody is making you think about it that way,
because it's just not how you think your body is
responding to that. So that's a little bit different than
what we're talking about, but it is. It is those
physical responses.

Speaker 3 (31:26):
So listener, consider this. You're halfway through the episode Integration reminder.
Remember knowledge is power, but only if combined with action
and integration. It can be transformative. To take a minute
to synthesize information rather than just ingesting it in a
detached way. So let's collectively take a moment to pause
and reflect what's your one big insight so far and

(31:46):
how can you put it into practice in your life? Seriously,
just take a second, pause the audio and reflect it.
Can be so powerful to have these reminders to stop
and be present, can't it. If you want to keep
this momentum going that you built with this little exercise,
i'd encourage you to get on our Good Wolf Reminders
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(32:07):
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So far, there are over one and seventy two others

(32:30):
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we'd love to welcome you as well. So head on
over to oneufeed dot net slash sms and let's feed
our good Wolves together. That story about you and your
husband comes from the chapter about senses. What are some
other ways that we can use our senses to improve

(32:50):
our mood or our happiness?

Speaker 1 (32:53):
I think we don't always realize the power of touch.
You and I have the pleasure of being in the
same studio right now. So much of our lives lately
is on zoom and is remote, and because for very
good reasons, we've you know, become fearful of touching people.
And touch is a very powerful mood changer and a
very powerful we need touch as human beings. And a

(33:16):
positive story about my husband and he's a wonderful man.

Speaker 3 (33:20):
I adore him, but don't I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
We had some silly argument one night and not terribly
long ago, and we got into bed and I could,
you know, if you can feel that tension with your
partner sometimes, and and I thought we can have the
twenty minute discussion of what just happened, and nobody was
right or wrong, it was just something silly, and instead

(33:45):
I just reached over and touched his arm and just
rubbed his arm for a moment, and I could feel
all the tension just disappear from the room and we
just you know, we were able to Then it was gone.
There was nothing further that needed to be discussed. We
both fell asleep very happy, and and I think that
power of touch and of letting somebody know how you

(34:05):
feel that way is really important.

Speaker 3 (34:08):
Yeah. I love that story. When I read it. So
senses play a role. Our environment plays a role also.
And you talk about places, and you reference a quote
in the book that people often say, which is some
variation of like wherever you go, there you are, meaning
wherever you go, you take yourself with you. I was
a drug addict in my early twenties, and I tried

(34:31):
to move different places to try and suddenly I thought,
if I just am somewhere else, it'll be different. And
it didn't turn out to be different. And yet environment
and where we are does play a role. Share a
little bit more about that.

Speaker 1 (34:45):
It does play a role. And I think what you
said earlier about nothing is as dramatic as we like
it to seem. So I can understand why drug addiction
did not end by moving to a different place nicely.
But maybe it had a smaller effect. Maybe in some
places you felt or maybe in some places you were
able to take a step forward that you might not
have been able to.

Speaker 3 (35:05):
And with other support. What I will say for sure
was avoiding certain places was really important. As I was
getting sober and I had other support, it was really
important that I not go to where I used to
buy drugs. So place does play a role. Right, you know,
so even in the same story I'm telling, and I
can give you the flip side of it, where yeah, place.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
Matter, yeah, in less dramatic circumstances. The idea of wherever
you go, you take yourself with you, I think is
not true because you feel differently. If you're sitting in
a dark room looking at a back alley, or you're
sitting out on a beach looking at a vast horizon,
you feel differently, and you're a different person and you
have different experiences. There were some things that fascinated me

(35:48):
on that score, in terms of how our senses are
always working together with each other. And so there was
that fascinating study out of the UK where a searcher
set up three different rooms and he had them as
dramatically different environments. One was meant to feel like the
outdoors and one was meant to be like a jazz

(36:10):
club and so forth. And he gave people glasses of whisky,
and they were holding the glasses of whiskey as they
moved from room to room, and after they had spent
a certain amount of time in that room, they were
asked to take a sip of the whisky and describe
right down how they felt about the whisky, and the
people described the whisky differently in each room that they

(36:30):
were in. So when they were in the outdoorsy room,
they described the whisky as tasting grassy, and when they
were in the jazz room, they described it as tasting brassy.
And they were picking up different subtleties in the whisky.
And he pointed out that they were holding the whisky
glass the entire time, so at the end of it,
they knew nobody had been tricking them. They had been

(36:51):
tricking themselves that how you experience something is affected by
where you are. Now, we would think how something tastes
shouldn't change depending on where you're drinking it or tasting it,
but it does, and it tastes different depending on what
the lighting is in the room. It tastes different depending
on the color of the plate. I talk about another

(37:15):
researcher who wrote a paper called the provencal Rose paradox,
which is that wine always tastes betterse wine always tastes
better in the south of France than it does anyplace else.
And I've certainly discovered that with Paris. You know, you
have a meal in Paris and it just is wonderful.

(37:36):
Everything tastes good. Try to have the same meal at
home not gonna taste as good. Because when you're in Paris,
you're not just eating the food. You're eating the environment,
you're taking in the beautiful cafe, the experience, the sense
that you're in Paris, and so being aware that, yes,
place does make a difference, and it does change how

(37:56):
you experience things and how you feel about things is
really important.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Yeah, you tell a story about being in Paris and
going to the doctor.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Right, I had an eye infection and we needed medicine.
It was a very complicated story, and the pharmacy won't
let you do it. You have to go to this
doctor and we climb up these stairs and it was
this ancient room and this ancient doctor, and we ended
up spending half a day doing that. And at the
end of the day I said, to again my beloved husband,
that was so much fun, What a fun day that was.

(38:26):
And he said, what are you talking about. You had
to spend half the day dealing with medicine, And I said,
it was such a great experience, wasn't it fascinating and
fascinating to see that doctor and to go into that
house and yes, so having a different experience, being in
a different place can have such a different resonance than
you would expect.

Speaker 3 (38:47):
Yep. Yeah, my partner, Jinny loves Loves, loves France, and
I've been able to observe very clearly in her. And
I'm not saying like I don't have the same things
happening with me. It's just sometimes easier to see with
some one else the things that I don't think she
would like in the US. She likes in Paris or
in France because it's French, like she has this association

(39:08):
with it. She sees through a different lens because it's
a place she has really good feelings about.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
Absolutely, And I bet everybody who is listening has something
somewhere in their house or apartment that they bought on
a vacation that seemed like such a great idea and
so charming and delightful and adorable when they saw it
on vacation, and it is now way in the back
of a closet somewhere because when you got it home,
you went what Yeah. Because yes, when we're excited about something,

(39:38):
and part of it is also just the idea of
having a new experience, because it is very powerful. New
experiences wake up our bodies, wake up our brains. We
feel alive. And when you feel alive, you feel better.
And that's probably what your partner is experiencing in France
in part, and also the joy of being somewhere new,
seeing new things, and yes, it does make everything you touch,

(40:00):
se smeller, taste feel better.

Speaker 4 (40:02):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (40:24):
Something I've realized about myself over the last few years
is that I am in the personality tests they talk
about different traits of personality. There's openness to new experience
is a personality trait, right, I think I'm very high
on that and the combination of both the pandemic and
I'm a long time Zen Buddhism student, and Zen Buddhism

(40:45):
is kind of focused on like, just pay closer attention
to what's right here and it will become special. And
I believe that that is true, and I believe that
I need new experiences. I mean, I just do better
with them, so I have to really sort of consciously
court them. And I think it's easy to understand why
we would feel better in Paris. And most of our

(41:08):
life is not a vacation, right, most of our life,
you know, we can't just be like, well, I'd like
to feel better, so I'm going to fly to Paris.
So it's more subtle than that. What are some of
the subtle things that we can do to use place
as a way of improving how we feel well.

Speaker 1 (41:24):
I don't think you need to fly to Paris to
have a new experience, right, You can drive on a
different route to the grocery store than you usually take,
and you're going to see things a little bit differently.
I live in New York and I took a subway
to a part of the city that I had never
been to, and I explored it for an hour or two,
and I felt like I had been to Berlin. I mean,

(41:44):
it was like I had been to some exotic place
that i'd never visited before. You know, go to a
farmer's market and buy a fruit that you've never tasted
and taste that. I think there are so many ways
that we can awaken our experiences. Our brains again, you know,
great as they are, as we been saying, like to
let things go, and it's much easier for our brains

(42:05):
if everything is the same. They don't have to pay attention.
And again you've mentioned evolutionary biology, and it makes sense.
Right when everything is the same, you don't have to worry.
As soon as something changes, you better pay attention because
it may be a danger. And so in a bad way.
I was at a one person show off Broadway the
other night, a wonderful comedian by the way named Gary Gullman.

(42:27):
He was in the middle of one of his very
touching pieces, by the way, and there was a siren outside.
It's New York, and he got distracted, and you could
almost see him get distracted. He's smart and quick enough
that he was able to make a joke about it.
He then did some improv about the siren for a
couple of minutes, and then he went back to what
he was doing. But he got distracted because a change

(42:49):
in the environment distracts you, and that can be a
bad thing if you're trying to do a one person show.
But in most of our lives, it's a good thing
to have that distraction, to have something new, to have
something that tells your brain wake up and pay attention.

Speaker 3 (43:03):
Yeah, And I think that term distraction is a term
that we often associate negatively, like it's not good to
be distracted. And I'm going to use that to segue
to where I wanted to go next, which is talking
about the complex relationship between our body and our brain
when it comes to pain, and we'll get to how
to work with it more. But the spoiler alert is

(43:26):
distraction is part of that. So there's my fancy segue.
But let's talk about that relationship between our body and
our brain and how it relates to pain.

Speaker 1 (43:35):
Well, it's important that you said it that way, because
it is our body and brain that relates to pain,
and we don't usually think of it that way. We
think of pain as being very localized and physical, and
we should make the distinction between two kinds of pain,
between acute pain and chronic pain. Most of the research
that we're going to be talking about has to do

(43:56):
with chronic pain and acute injury. If you fall down
and break you leg, if you cut your hand, your
body is crying out in pain, and it is for
a reason because something has happened, and it's saying, emergency,
do something. But what tends to happen is let's say
you're out shoveling snow, or you pick up a child
and you rent your back. There's an immediate pain it
lasts maybe for a couple of weeks with a lot

(44:19):
of people, and in fact, something like eighty percent of
Americans have chronic back, shoulder, or knee pain. The pain
never goes away. You just continue to have that back pain,
and you go, boy, it's ever since that day I
shovel the snow. Well, physically, you've recovered. Physically, whatever injury
was done is gone. And if the pain has lasted

(44:42):
more than I think they say three months, it's now
considered chronic pain. And what happens is that the pain
signal is going from that localized area in your body
up to your brain, and your brain is interpreting it
and sending it back out and telling you you're in pain.
What happens is that long after where the physical pain
is over, it is continuing and your brain is continuing

(45:05):
to send the message. And so most of the research
into chronic pain now is focused on how do we
change the signal that's coming from the brain. Now, this
is a really hard thing for people to accept because
people will say, hey, I'm sorry, you don't understand my
back hurts. Ye don't tell me otherwise my back is

(45:27):
all on my head, and you know, there's a wonderful
doctor at Stanford said to me, it's not all in
your head. I understand it is not all in your head.
It is in your brain, but it is not in
your head. And I said, wait a minute, isn't your
brain in your head? And he said yes. But there's
there's a very different nuance to that. When you tell

(45:48):
somebody it's in their head, it means they're making it up.
When you tell them it's in their brain, you say,
of course you're feeling pain. I have no question but
that you're feeling pain. Nobody is suggesting that you're making
up this pain. But understand that the pain signal is
coming from your brain and not from your back.

Speaker 2 (46:07):
You know.

Speaker 1 (46:07):
One way I like to think of it is remember
those electrical circuits that you did as a science project
when you were a kid or for your kid, and
the goal was to get a little light bulb to
light up. And if you break that circuit anywhere, the
light bulb goes off. Well, I think of that as
being a pain circuit, and the light bulb is the pain.
And what you're trying to do is turn off the
light bulb. And it doesn't matter if you turn off

(46:30):
the circuit at your back or in your brain. You're
still turning off the circuit.

Speaker 3 (46:35):
Yeah, my mother has suffered chronic pain for years. I
feel like I live in this nexus, and I've interviewed
people about this idea, and I think it's another one
of those things that gets to be a little bit
tricky and nuanced, because sometimes it is physical signals from
the body. Sometimes it's the brain stuck in this on position.

(46:57):
Sometimes it's a combination of these things. So it gets
it's very difficult to sort out. But I want to
break this down into two separate areas. I think one
is what actually happens in our brain when that pain
circuit gets locked on. The second pieces, I also want
to explore what happens to our perception of pain depending
on how we relate to that pain. You talk about

(47:18):
both these things in the book, So let's stay first
with the one we've been covering, which is this pain
circuit sort of getting locked on. I interviewed somebody, Yoni
Ashar I believe is the name, a doctor about this,
and one of the studies they've done that showed this
was they were able to see that as pain moves,

(47:38):
and you may have talked about this a little bit.
As pain becomes chronic, they start to notice where it
is in. The brain starts to move and it moves
to areas that are much more memory related, meaning there's
a memory of the pain. And again, none of us
are saying you're not feeling immense amounts of real pain.
It's just like you said, where kind of is it

(47:59):
coming from? Now, let's also talk about though you call
it the cycle of rumination, magnification, helplessness. Right, this is
an amplifier of even perhaps legitimate pain that's still coming
from our back. This is a way I think we amplify, right.

Speaker 1 (48:14):
And the more we worry about pain, the worse it gets.
And the less we move, which makes our pain worse,
and the tensor we make our muscles which makes our
pain worse. And yes, it was one study that was
looking at I believe it was post surgical pain, and
it found that the number one correlation to what caused

(48:37):
post surgical pain was not the skill of the surgeon,
and it was not where the surgery was done. It
was how much the person worried about being in pain beforehand.
And so how you feel about your experience makes a
huge difference. And the reason that some of the studies
that I'm sure you've seen and that I talk about

(48:58):
in the book on Behavioral theory for pain work is
because it gives you a different way of thinking about
the pain. And pain is scary. When you're in pain,
wherever it's coming from, whether it's your back or your brain,
it's scary. And to get a new way of thinking
about the pain to be told, Okay, well let's laugh
at this pain. It's coming from your brain. Your brain

(49:21):
is tricking you. Don't worry about it. You're not going
to hurt your back by going out and walking. You're
not going to hurt yourself no matter what you do.
We've got to figure out a way to stop your
brain from sending these signals. But stop worrying about your
back changes how you think about it, and changes how
you feel about it, and changes how you move. And

(49:42):
so I think that's one of the reasons that kind
of behavioral approach has been so effective in so many clinics.

Speaker 3 (49:48):
Yeah, I think with post surgical pain the other thing.
And I was just reflecting with another guest recently about
this because we've been through it, and a friend of
mine went through it recently, which is people come out
of cir and they're in pain and they think there's
something wrong, whereas if that they'd just been told by
the way, you know, we just did back surgery. Don't

(50:09):
expect that when you come out your back's going to
feel immediately better. You're going to be in some degree
of pain, because post surgical pain is a real thing.
But what happens is people get themselves all amped up like,
what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong? The surgery didn't work,
that all of that, when what you're dealing with is
the very normal acute pain that comes from having your

(50:30):
body sliced open and something done in it. It's that rumination, magnification,
helplessness loop that somebody's in in that case, Whereas if
they understood what was happening, they could turn down that rumination,
they could turn down that magnification. That's a great example.
You're right, because if you come out of surgery and
you know that it's going to be painful, and you

(50:51):
were told you're going to have a miserable three days
and then by the end of the week you'll probably
start feeling better, you're going to deal with that. So
much different, and it's going to give you a very
different experience.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
My dear husband, who we've mentioned a couple of times,
is a doctor, and I have the advantage of that.
You know, I'll get a cold or the flu or whatever,
and he'll say, yeah, you're going to feel lousy for
two days. But I'm seeing this all over. Everybody's got it,
and after a couple of days, everybody gets better, and
then you're going to be fine. Yeah, fine, no problem anymore.
Two days. I can deal with it right precisely.

Speaker 3 (51:24):
Yep, yep. You know. You talk about your own back
pain in the book, and I've talked about my back
pain before, which has really been managed largely by a
How I think about it is a big piece and
how I talk to myself about it, you know, instead
of saying my back is killing me, I'll be like, oh,
there's some tightness in my back. But the other thing
that you talked about is you start doing core exercises,

(51:45):
and the core exercises may have helped with the back
pain because your core is taking weight off of your back,
so yes, it may be helpful, but you talked about
how it was also helpful because you felt like you
were able to do something about your pain from helplessness
to a position where you had some agency.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
I think that is so important and I use that
even now. And I don't have particularly bad back pain
by any means, but you know, we all get those
twinges or those moments we feel a little stiff, and
I do find that as soon as I feel that way,
I go, oh, I'm just going to go do a
few you know, tummy tightening exercises or this or that
or the you know, the four exercises that I've learned
to do. And it does give you that sense of

(52:27):
I'm doing something and I'm able to make this better,
I'm able to make this go away. I think I
suggested in the book that I think my back pain
improved much faster than my core. Did you know. There
was no way that my core had gotten stronger when
my back pain went away, But it was that sense
of Okay, I'm back in control.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
It's funny you say that, though, because I recently was
having some low back pain. So I did my like, Okay,
what did I used to do? What exercises did I
used to do and look them up and started doing
And you're right, they probably couldn't have helped as quickly
as suddenly I started feeling a little bit better. I
think they do help, of course, Right, it's both and
the body is sending real signals that are important, and

(53:07):
our brains are amplifying and modifying and choosing how we
perceive those signals.

Speaker 1 (53:14):
You know, we get embarrassed when we talk about something
like that and you say, like, oh, that's just the
placebo effect. The placebo effect is a good thing we
should be We should see that as a wonderful positive,
not something to be embarrassed about. It's your body making
you better. It's your brain making you better and able
to take over instead of drugs or other things having

(53:35):
the same effect. So it's wonderful if you're able to
enact the placebo effect.

Speaker 3 (53:40):
Yeah, the amazing thing about the placebo effect is that
sometimes it doesn't just change your perception, it's changing actual
biomarkers that people can measure. Right, it's crazy that that
is happening because it's easy to see how the placebo
effect might make me think I feel better, But when
you're actually able to measure things that show that people
indeed do feel differently, you're like, Wow, this is really

(54:03):
kind of a remarkable thing, and.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
It's a great thing if our bodies can manufacture the
chemicals that we need. Bravo's that's what we need.

Speaker 3 (54:14):
Yep So listener and thinking about all that and the
other great wisdom from today's episode. If you're going to
isolate just one top insight that you're taking away, what
would it be? Not your top ten, not the top five,
just one? What is it? Think about it? Got it? Now?
I ask you, what's one tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny little
thing you can do today to put it in practice?

(54:36):
Or maybe just take a baby step towards it. Remember,
little by little, a little becomes a lot. Profound change
happens as a result of aggregated tiny actions, not massive
heroic effort. If you're not already on our Good Wolf
Reminder SMS list, I'd highly recommend it as a tool
you can leverage to remind you to take those vital
baby steps forward. You can get on there at oneufeed

(54:58):
dot net slash sm It's totally free, and once you're
on there, I'll send you a couple text messages a
week with little reminders and nudges. Here's what I recently
shared to give you an idea of the type of
stuff I send. Keep practicing even if it seems hopeless.
Don't strive for perfection, aim for consistency, and no matter what,
keep showing up for yourself. That was a great gem

(55:21):
from recent guests Light Watkins. And if you're on the
fence about joining, remember it's totally free and easy to unsubscribe.
If you want to get in, I'd love to have
you there. Just go to one ufeed dot net slash
sms all right back to it. So I'd like to
end with kind of where you end the book, which
is with what you call the Body Mind Happiness Plan,

(55:42):
and in it you have us walk through a different
aspect of body mind connection each day. I'm going to
just read what they are, so listeners kind of get
the pick, and then I'm just going to ask you
to comment on one or two of them. So Monday
is creating a cozy environment, so we sort of talked
about how our environments matter. Tuesday is whole body happiness.

(56:05):
Wednesday is time outdoors. Thursday is reinterpreting body signals, which
is what we were just talking about. Friday's movement and exercise.
Saturday is eating for pleasure and Sunday is walking and creativity.
So if you would just pick one or two of
those to leave listeners with a couple practical strategies they
can use based on your plan.

Speaker 1 (56:24):
Here, well, let's go to the last one, the walking
for creativity, because we haven't talked about that, and it
was fascinating to me to discover that. You know, most
of the time when we're dealing with a problem or
a work problem, we hunch over our laptop more and more,
and you know, we just I'm going to sit here
till I figure this out, and you should do the opposite.
Get up, take a walk, go outside, because the fluidity

(56:47):
of your body encourages the fluidity of your mind. Creativity
in your body. Movement in your body causes creativity. And
to realize that you can almost feel it. And so
put yourself, I think in the positions where good things
can happen to you. Allow yourself to be in those
places that are beautiful, Allow yourself to be outdoors. Allow

(57:09):
yourself when you're unhappy to say, I just want to
taste something that's going to make me happy, and just
a tiny taste that will awaken my senses and make
me feel good. So I think that pleasure of letting
your body move, letting your senses experience things is really
very helpful in any situation that you have.

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Wonderful well, I think that is a great place to
wrap up. Thank you so much for joining us, thank
you for coming here to sit down with me in person.
And the book is called What Your Body Knows About Happiness,
How to Use your Body to Change Your Mind. And
we'll have links in the show notes to where people
can get the book and where do they can find
you online. So thank you, thank you.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
If what you just heard was helpful to you, please
consider making a monthly donation to support the One You
Feed podcast. When you join our membership community. With this
monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits.
It's our way of saying thank you for your support.

Speaker 4 (58:20):
Now.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
We are so grateful for the members of our community.
We wouldn't be able to do what we do without
their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted.
To learn more, make a donation at any level and
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Eric Zimmer

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