March 8, 2023 • 44 mins
What sort of mother would help her family plan the murder of 8 people? We’ve spent years speculating on Angela Wagner’s role in the Rhoden murders, but as she takes the stand, her story leaves us all shocked.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters,
because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
He just walked around shot all the black people. The
cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
out how to go on and how to compete. I
(00:21):
wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
(00:44):
to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Baron bat On paper, he was perfect, but in reality,
this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
I would call him and I would say, I know
you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl
Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
(01:07):
get your podcasts. LA is expansive. There's nearly ten million
people living here and it comes with a lot of noise,
but if you tune those sounds out and listen close,
you'll hear the real LA. What a be marggim I'm
(01:27):
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fiction podcast mixtape about love. Listen to it on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast
This is the unbelievable but true story of George Ramis.
He was an eccentric and genius lawyer who figured out
how to game the system during Prohibition. Ramis is the
(01:49):
biggest man in the business, but George Ramis's wild existence
took a dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal, revenge,
and one of the most sensational murder trials in American history.
Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg King every Tuesday on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(02:14):
After spending for days listening to Jake Wagner testify against
his older brother George Jurors, today heard from both boys mother,
Angela Wagner. She speaks of her husband and her son's
in a very loving manner. She's really presenting today as
a sweet, loving mother. She's there to save her life,
(02:39):
but also the lives of her family. Lord knows how
many people that had actually stolen from it. Sounds like
the Old West because they had even gotten involvement poaching
and cattle rustling. You can have sympathy for somebody, but
when you take part in killing eight people, sorry, that
all goes out the window. This is the piked to massacre.
(03:06):
Returned to Pike County season four, episode nineteen, Angela takes
the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie
Studios with Stephanie Laidicker and Jeff Shane. It's important to
note that George Wagner, the fourth has pleaded not guilty
and maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner,
(03:27):
whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to
all charges. We've heard testimony from Jake Wagner about his
role in the crimes against the Rodin, Manly and Gilly families.
Today we're hearing from another pivotal witness for the prosecution,
and accu's killer comes face to face with his mother
for the first time since both were arrested four years ago.
(03:49):
Jurors today heard from both boys mother Angela Wagner, looking
somewhat frail and wearing a drab jail uniform. The fifty
two year old Wagner took the stand around ten fifteen
this morning. Wearing a drab black and white jail uniform.
Angela Wagner walks into the courtroom. James Pilcher, longtime investigative
reporter from Cincinnati now at Local twelve, was there when
(04:11):
Angela arrived at court. So one thing that her appearance
was much different than in the past. Her hair was
much longer. One of the other interesting details is that
she was shackled, much like her son was, but the
change were much lighter, so they made a much different
noise on the floor and she walked by, it was
more like a clank clank, clink rather than clank clank clank.
(04:33):
Here's Stephanie, who was also in the courtroom during Angela
Wagner's testimony. You can literally hear her with her shackles
coming down the hallway, which was such an eerie sound.
James Pilcher describes the atmosphere in the courtroom that day.
The courtroom, you could have heard a pin drop jak.
It wasn't like that. But when we're waiting for Angela,
for the mother of the suspect who's on trial. It
(04:56):
was definitely quiet because everybody has always thought that she
was the mastermind behind all of this, and I think
that was one thing that they were anticipating coming out.
And there was also the tension of knowing a mother
and her son were going to see each other for
the first time with her testifying against him. So there
was a lot of tension and very very quiet in
(05:17):
that courtroom when we're waiting for her to take the stand.
When she sat down, she didn't even look at George,
and George pretty much looked like he had his eyes
down the entire time. Angela Wagner chose to opt out
of having her testimony recorded. Therefore, the only people who
heard her testimony were the jury, the judge, the respective attorneys,
and the family and media that were present in the courtroom.
(05:40):
Here's Jeff speaking with Angeanette Levy, investigative reporter and host
for Law and Crime. They opted out because they could.
I thought it was completely ridiculous. You're a cooperating witness,
you're convicted, you should be forced to get up there
and face the music on camera. Did all of these
(06:01):
Rodent family members got up there and buried their souls
and were recorded. And you know, why shouldn't he and
Angela have to do the same. Does the journy know
who opts in and opts out? No, I don't believe so,
because the bailiff would go over and tell the photographer
or tell members of the media who opted and who
(06:22):
opted out. Here's forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. It's
so very easy to forget the Rodents, and I guess
on a spiritual level of since this all kind of
kicked off, I've always imagined every single member of that
family in a spiritual form, sitting on the front row
(06:43):
watching seeing if everyone to receive any level of justice,
and this is part of that justice. These people whose poor,
poor victims. They deserve to have each individual story told
when it comes to their deaths. This is a mass murder.
You know, their lives ended it at the end of
(07:05):
the musleable weapon and cut short, every single one of them,
every sing they still be here with us today, I
have no doubt, you know, and they deserved their due.
Prosecutor Angie Kneppa begins her opening remarks for the day,
we said that if anyone else came forward and could
tell us something that was consistent with what we had
(07:27):
just heard, that would do two things for us, and
it would just be stronger corroborating evidence that another member
of the Wagner family was giving us the same information
without knowing exactly what Jake had said. Right, And that
person that came forward was Angela Wagner. Kneppa comes right
(07:47):
out of the gate with the question everyone has been
wondering about. One thing that really stuck out to me
was they approached her much differently than they ended ying.
At the very very beginning, at the very open of
her testimony, they ask a point blank, are you guilty
of taking part in these murders? Yes? Did you help
plan them? Yes? Did you help prepare for it? Yes?
(08:12):
Did you aid in a bet? Yes? Who else is
took part? My husband, Billy, my son is George, and Jake.
So suffice it to say, all four of you were
involved in these homicides that night, Yes, she was. At
the point blank, are you guilty of aggravated murder? She said, yes,
we all are. That was a really key moment. Here's
(08:36):
Mike Allen, attorney and legal analyst who's been following the
case from the beginning. I think the fact that Angie
Kaneppa asked the question are you guilty and the answer
from Angela was yes. That's a big part of her testimony,
and I think just getting that out up front, let's
the jury know that, you know, she's not messing around here,
(08:59):
and she's admitting to her involvement in it. Not necessarily
fire any weapons, but she was in it up to
her neck, and that was established early on in her testimony.
Special Prosecutor Kneppa asked Angela Wagner about her childhood. Here
again Stephanie Angela said, this is the first time I
(09:19):
had heard this. She has sort of this messy relationship
with her own father because she was feuding with him
a bit about having sex. Then she goes to the
military and is sexually assaulted, leaves there and gets married
very quickly with Billy, And she speaks of frankly Billy
(09:41):
and her grand babies and her son's in a very
loving manner. You know, she's really presenting today as a sweet,
loving mother. On the stand, Angela isn't quite what we expected.
She's soft spoken and as a bit of a baby talker,
and instantly I was expecting a much bigger presence. Here's
(10:05):
Jeff and Angeanette. What do you make of that? Do
you think that's an act or do you think that
she's kind of changed in jail. I think she was
probably a nervous b doesn't want to be there. She
may be feeling badly about throwing her son under the bus,
implicating him in these homicides. But at the same time,
I think that she's a master manipulator. I think she's
(10:28):
good at playing a role when she has to. So
you don't really buy it. I mean I don't buy
the meat mild mannered part of it. I think maybe
in that instance that was her, But she's just quiet
and soft spoken. Obviously, that's not what we've heard from
Angela Wagner on the wire taps, or what we heard
about Angela Wagner from Tabitha's testimony or Elizabeth Armer's testimony.
(10:54):
As we've talked about incessantly, she's been this monster in
our minds in certainly in mind this is the big
bad wolf, right, this is her day in court, and
this is the monster we've been talking about, and we
know that is true. She's admitted it. We've heard countless
stories about it. I'm told it's coming. We're going to
(11:15):
see the crack in her very soon. But right now,
it's kind of like watching a movie in a way.
It's almost as though, what's that movie? Primal Fear? And
Edward Norton has sort of an interesting dialect and he
has mannerisms that are very specific. And then at the
very end when he's proven to be innocent and you
(11:37):
find out that he's, ah, I was lying the whole time,
and he doesn't have an accent. He was just pretending
to be this completely different person. And it feels like
she's that right now, And I have to be honest
with you, it's very believable. You know, we've been tracking
this case so closely, and then you look at jurors
and you have to hope they're not buying it. Here again,
(12:00):
James Felcher, the tuxtaposition between what she heard on tape
and what she presented in person was much much different,
much more low key, much calmer, much more meek. As
for her demeanor, again, she's there to save her life,
but also the lives of her family as part of
(12:21):
her plea deal. So she obviously is going to be
on her best behavior, so I think that was part
of it. But I also think part of it she
was probably on her meds and she admitted that. During
cross examination, Prosecutor Kneppa asked Angela Wagner about when Jake
and George were children. Wagner testifies that she didn't think
(12:44):
George and Jake were getting the one on one attention
they needed at public school, so she and Billy decided
to homeschool them, and they began by interrogating her about
how she raised Jake and George, explaining that she homeschooled
them both until high school while their father, Billy Wagner,
allegedly taught them how to steal from trucks and trailers.
There's obviously a lack of socialization there. I mean, these
(13:06):
kids were raised and when I say kids, Jake and
George and this kind of insular upbringing where they were
homeschooled and didn't really have a lot of exposure to
the outside world. Of course, they knew people outside of
their family, but not many. They didn't really have a
lot of friends outside of you know, people who worked
(13:26):
at the Flying w and things like that. So they
didn't have a quote unquote normal childhood, and there's questions
about the curriculum. They were taught that they needed to
be there a deferential and polite, not to act up
things like that. But it was almost in a way
that they were taught these things so that they could
get away with crimes and not necessarily so they could
(13:49):
be good human beings. We heard about some of this
education in Jake's testimony. Angela Wagner's testimony expands it on
the family dynamic. She speaks about how the only would
set fires to their properties and file insurance claims. That
was one thing that the prosecution did too, and they
did it with Jake, but they did it more with Angela,
(14:11):
and that is they clearly laid out how Angela was
involved and planned several criminal acts leading up to all
of this, including the arsons. They rebuilt the house again
up there on Frederica's property, and Fredrika said, well, I'm
going to sell the property and you're not going to
(14:32):
really be compensated for the house. And at that point
Angela said, I don't want anybody living this dream house
that we built with our own bare hands. So they
burned it down for the insurance money, and they walked
through all of that. It's interesting because the way Knappa
did this was chronological, and Angela's towards the end of
this trial, and so it's almost like she's confirming all
the things that we've heard. They talked about the insurance
(14:55):
for the fires, all of these pieces that we've heard about.
Angela's like, yes, that happened, Yes, that happened, Yes, that happened.
What do you make of that? I think miss Kneppa
was doing that on purpose to show that the testimony,
Angela's testimony died with the physical evidence in the case.
And I think it was a good strategy because it
(15:15):
did line up in her testimony, I mean pretty solidly.
So I think that was a good strategy. And again,
as I said, I think Angela came off as pretty credible.
The defense lean did on these planned arsons during cross examination.
Here's James Pilcher followed by Stephanie. The defense started its
(15:35):
cross examination by leaning into Angela's previous criminal acts, including
Arson's for insurance money, shoplifting, and helping steal diesel fuel
and truckloads of goods. I think it is going to
prove to be very relevant they're painting a picture of her.
Although she was very sweet and cute all day. At
the very end cross examination happened, and that was a
(15:56):
jaw dropper because George's defense attorney, if it's on a
a pretty good display and kind of talked us through
Angela's early years and then they start getting into where
she lives and how they ended up at the house
in the end that she lived, which was pugs. What
he was painting the picture for was that, Yeah, she
has in fact burned down by arson. Three houses. She
(16:21):
had to admit to that today in the court of law.
He was like, this house was very expensive. How did
you get the money for this house? Oh? Wait, didn't
the house before this house? What happened to that house? Oh,
it burnt down, But how did you get the money
for that house? Oh? The house before that, Oh that
one burned down. So three houses and I think a
(16:42):
garage all burnt down. You got insurance money for all
of them. On cross examination, the defense asks Angela Wagner
if Jake and George were involved in the arsons. Angela's response, yes,
but who gives a damn? By the way, when all
these arsons were happening George was. One time he was sixteen,
(17:06):
one time George was fifteen. Like George was in the
home during these shenanigans. Angela also testified about other crimes
she's committed with Billy in front of the boys, including
pill running. Prosecutor Kneppa asks Angela Wagner if she's ever
stolen fuel, before Angela responds yes, she was the lookout.
(17:26):
Angela also testified that Billy taught the boys had a
siphon fuel. I think that they see themselves as engaging
in and just fibble outlawry if you if you will
that you know the government is all bad. We're really
representative of the working people you know here in this community.
(17:46):
You know it's cliche, but you know our family has
been here for generations. We know we don't know what
the real story is here. We know that you're not
going to get ahead in this world and this hardscrab
a life that we're leading. You're not going to ahead
in this world unless you you still going to some
hard working families home or the farm and robbing them,
(18:07):
are burglarizing and taking what is not theirs and being
able to justify it that it's you know, it's a
real Lord of the Flies moment and its survival of
of fittists. And they'd done that. You know, Lord knows
how many people that had actually stolen from in that community.
You know, you you think about things just uh, you know,
(18:28):
two by fours and wood paneling and you know, going
out to job sites and essentially robbing hard working people
of the things that they need to get by on.
It sounds like the Old West because they had even
gotten involved in poaching and cattle rustling of all things,
you know, student livestock. So that's an operation. That's that's
not a one man operation, is it. That's that's that's
(18:53):
a lot of work. It's not like little Jake is
just running around doing all of this stuff with this
crazy fall you gotta have multiple hands on the wheel here.
And I think that you know, this goes to George
and this this thievery, this you know, nefarious behavior. Is
it's like a virus. I think that just it spreads
like wildfire through a family because you know it's the
(19:15):
children bear witnessed it when they're growing up in the
home and they know that this is just part of
the life that they're involved in it. And you know,
what it was probably normal for them to go and
take food out of people's mouths. There's a question of
whether this kind of testimony about Jake and George's upbringing
is making them sympathetic to the jury. Here again Joseph Morgan,
(19:37):
followed by Angelinette Levy for George appoint in his life
that he was at he was still going to be
bullied by Billy and potentially by Angela as well. I
think Angela is probably chief amongst centers here. He just
couldn't get out of his own way. And so I
guess if if the jury can take away some bit
of sympathy for George as he's you know, he was
(20:00):
his own trial and the chore else, I guess that's
that's probably where it would come from. There may have
been a little bit of sympathy, but I don't think
there was a whole lot. I mean, you can have
sympathy for somebody, but when you take part in killing
eight people, sorry, that all goes out the window. It
might be an explanation, but it doesn't excuse it. We're
(20:23):
going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh,
I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends.
Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few
of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
(20:47):
he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't.
He really wasn't. He shouted into the point she went unconscious.
Bob could lie about anything, only takes the one time
when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends
know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay
(21:08):
for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
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(21:31):
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A hell of a lot of juicy stuff. Take Abe
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Like our ongoing obsessive campaign to blow up the world's
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You're gonna pull the trigger with this finger here. Okay,
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(24:35):
The prosecution asks Angela about her relationship with her daughter
in laws. We've heard in previous testimony how George's ex wife,
Tabitha was essentially cut off from her child by the
Wagner family. We've also heard about how Angela claimed to
love Hannah may Roden like a daughter, but there was
friction over custody of the child she shared with Jake.
We've spoken before about how Angela wanted to spy on
(24:58):
Hannah Rodin's Facebook A Ativity prosecutor Kneppa asked how she
got access to her passwords to monitor Facebook. According to Angela,
she asked Jake and he gave it to her. Joseph
Scott Morgan. She controlled everything, and he controlled everything, even
down to the relationships that you know that she had,
(25:19):
that her sons had, you know, outside the home. You know,
with these women that came into their lives. And when
you're in a position of power where you can control
people to the point where their romantic interest is trumped
by your ability to manipulate them, where you would be
(25:40):
willing to, you know, at her direction, compel your lovers
to give over passwords and access. Just that one point
alone is really I catch it. Angela used this access
to social media to share screenshots about custody of her
granddaughter with the family. She was also trying to get
information on Tabitha, George Wagner's ex wife. This is not
(26:03):
what she said, but she's intimating that she's just protecting
her boys away from these bad girls. Essentially, he's a
reminder of what Angela Wagner said when she was recorded
by the BCI at the Canadian border. So your relationship
with him was good. Now, I thought she was a
sport wrap, but I thought she was a spool wrap
(26:25):
because she really was. I mean, no, that's that she
was her guy ever, getting away with every name. And
I thought she would give me looks and she would
Smarrow and she would tell Jacob was being mean, and
you know, but that's typical teenagers. Sometimes. Mothera was and yep.
(26:45):
Time and time again, Wagner would bring it back to
how her family was everything to her and informed everything
she did. But the prosecution brings up an incident with
Tabitha that we haven't heard about before. Here's Jeff speaking
with cris Ajeanette Levy. She also said some weird things
about Tabby. Angie Kaneppa asked her about Tabby and said,
(27:08):
you know, did Tabby ever try to poison you or
anything like that. She's like, yes, and she was just
adamant about it, just like Jake was adamant like about
certain things. She said. She described how Tabby one time
put dog hair in her coffee, and she and Jake
liked a particular type of vanilla coffee. And she said
(27:29):
she had her coffee cup one time and Tabby had
made this cup for her, and she looked at it
and she, you know, she's she said, Jake, is there
there's dog hair in this coffee, And she was serious
as could be, and she said Tabby was laughing about it.
She described another time where Tabby had made some kool
aid for George that he liked and he got really sick.
(27:50):
So she has these like things that she kind of
comes up with the dog hair in the coffee thing
was just astounding to me. She truly believed that. I
don't know if it actually happened. I can't imagine somebody
putting dog hair and somebody's coffee. It just seems like
such a strange thing. But if they believe it, it's gospel.
(28:11):
This belief in the untrue and the ability to convince
her family of it is one of Angela's strengths. According
to forensic examiner Joseph Morgan. You know, you think about Billy,
and you know Billy's they're teaching young Jake how to
hot wire car and sealing it. Well, she's doing the
same things. It's justifiable for you to betray somebody that
(28:32):
you claim to love if it's for the greater good
of the family. And so it's amazing how you can
psychologically leverage somebody with information like that, isn't it? Where
you can be the driver that you have this endwelling inertia.
You know that carries over to the family and you're
push him in the direction which you so desire. It
(28:53):
was one belief in particular that Angela held that helps
set in motion the events that led to the murder
of the road Manly and Gilly families. Angela testified she
became worried her granddaughter was being abused while staying with
the Rodent family. She said, quote, I realized something was happening,
some kind of abuse was going on that needed to
(29:15):
be stopped. Agela Wayner was asked if she loved Hannah.
She said, yes, I did at one point, but issues
made me feel like was being sexually abused. Angela said
she became concerned over signs of abuse and claims that
her grandchild would often appear reluctant to leave and return
to Hannah since they had shared custody. James Pilcher here's
her direct quote. She said, I realized something was happening,
(29:39):
some kind of abuse was going on that needed to
be stopped. And she said she didn't trust child services
or the law, our law enhorsement, and neither did her husband, Billy.
We've already established that Billy was a Doonesday or Billy
hated police. Billy paid his kids to spot police. Billy
(30:00):
his kids how to be thieves, so this all set
into it. Although Angela didn't want to kill him, it
was some of the ways she would answer she was like, well,
why did you do this? We were protecting and she
almost appeared like she was in a fog on the stand,
But then when it got to that, it was almost
like she was razor white hot when she would talk
about protecting that little girl, and then they talked about
(30:22):
Angela's passed in the Air Force and all of this
surrounding ever present fear of sexual abuse, and it became
almost a paranoia and you could see it in display
clearly when she started talking about that. So the lead
reasoning has been that she felt as though it was
(30:46):
being sexually molested or was going to be sexually molested,
not that there's ever been proof of that, but that
was the reasoning, and that at some point she noticed
that Frankie road and kissed on the lips saying goodbye,
and that felt a little strange. In fact, she actually
(31:06):
says that told her mother, Rita nukeamb who at the
time was living next door to her with her grandmother,
that she was being touched inappropriately, and then Rita Newcombe
repeated that to Angela, and then Angela repeated it to
Jake and the entire family, George and Billy. At that
(31:27):
point when Jake found out about it. Rather than talking
about it with the Rodents or anything, they just started
putting this plan together to protect her and she had
to protect the babies. But apparently Angela Wagner's assertions of
abuse were not based in reality. This fear that the
little girl would be molested. The prosecution basically says that
(31:49):
was something they kind of whipped up in their heads
to justify what they wanted to do. They are entitled
and feel that those children should be with them and
no one else. There is no doubt that this family
wanted those kids to be one hundred percent Wagner, and
that's what this is all about. They had convinced themselves
there may have been some abuse, but that was basically
(32:11):
window dressing for their their belief that these kids should
belong to them, regardless of any actual evidence of abuse.
The idea had been planted in the minds of the
Wagner family, and Angela stoked the fire. I think that
she's probably arguably the smartest one in the crew, and
the reason I think that that's it's quite ominous. I
(32:32):
think she knew what buttons to press with all three
of these men in her life, you know, She's probably
known how to control them their entire life, or at
least that portion of Billy's life that he was with her.
She knew, you know, where to press, how far she
could go to attain her goals, if you will, in
(32:53):
any of this and anything that she she set her
mind to doing. And you know, she she wanted to
be be the head hancho, you know, in the family,
and she was. She told Jeors she suspected the Rodents
were abusing, did not take her to the doctor. Said,
we didn't believe in the justice system, didn't believe in
children's services, she said. By January twenty sixteen, her husband
(33:14):
started coming up with the plan they had to be murdered.
She said. She went to her husband, Billy, with her concerns,
saying she wanted to turn in Chris Roden Senior for
growing marijuana. Billy nixed that, coming up with an alternate plan.
She said, quote the plan was they needed to be murdered. Later,
she said, her husband told the entire family, quote, this
(33:35):
was going to change everything. According to Angelo Agnes's testimony,
Billy came up with the plan for murder. Billy ultimately
decided that the only way was to kill Hannah, and
that they couldn't stop short of killing Hannah Rodin, the
mother of but they would have to kill Chris Rodin
Senior because he ultimately exercise control over Hannah and the
(33:58):
Roden family, and that other witnesses, other members of the
Rodent family would have to be killed for it to
be successful. That's essentially what Angela testified, and that really
was Billy who was a driver here. Angela wanted to
turn Chris Sinior in for his marijuana and then that
would get the family in trouble, and therefore maybe Jake
(34:21):
would get more visitation rights or more control over the
over the fate of his daughter and her granddaughter. Well,
of course that cut too close for home for Billy,
because Billy had been in business with Chris. Chris Sinior
had tried to teach Billy how to grow marijuana. And
then so she says, Billy came up with this alternate plan.
(34:43):
Here's the quote quote. The plan was they needed to
be murdered, yeah, and then it progressed from there that Okay,
we're gonna start talking about how we're going to do it.
And she said that they would actually have conversations with
the water running, or outside in the carboard with the
car running, without the TV's on, with no phones around
because they're so paranoid of being overheard. During one of
(35:07):
these meetings with George and Jake Wagner in the kitchen,
Angela asked her sons if they wanted to go through
with the murders. According to Angela, they said yes. Joseph
Morgan says that the accusation of molestation would get the
rest of the Wagner family to do what Angela wanted.
She was the person that had the thirty thousand foot
(35:27):
view of the entire family. She saw where all the
weaknesses were, she saw where the strengths were, and she
knew what the goal was in order to win, you know.
And I think that her endgame has always been to have,
you know, total control over the Wagner family. And you know,
she was going to be she's a run her own ship,
and she's she's the master of the ship as well,
(35:49):
and all of these people are there to do her bidding.
And you know, Billy may have had this thought at
a real primal level. I think that he needed to
take care of the rodents. But it was in my opinion, least,
it was an Angela that was overlording all of this
all the way along. In episode four thirteen, we saw
evidence of how Angela manipulated Billy through text messages. I
(36:11):
am moving on. You are more than welcome to come
bring babies and come on, Angela, well, they are not
our babies. And I would never do that to George
and Jake. I would have killed someone if they would
have even mentioned going away with my babies. And if
you really missed me, you would do anything or go
through anything for me. Billy. It's a fine mess, Angela.
(36:32):
Well maybe it is worth you helping me work it out. Billy.
I got a plan if you just take one damn
minute and listen. Angela. Okay, tell me, Billy when I
see you. This is the last time I am going
to try. If the three of you don't take time
to listen to me, then oh well, Angela okay. Joseph
Morgan isn't an amazing a fund, you know, and Angela
(36:54):
is certainly a fun example of this. It's very easy
for her to rationalize justify her actions. She doesn't necessarily
do in court, but the lead up to it, when
she's the driver behind all of this is that she's
looking out for the greater good of the family. You know,
it's the women. The women are all women of ill repute.
(37:16):
The kids that she does not have and her immediate
control run the risk of being sexually molested. That she
needs to be the one to provide watch care and
the family has to watch over them at all time.
The rest of the world is evil, We're the ones
that are right. And isn't that interesting how her worldview
kind of parallels that of Billy's. While Angela testified it
(37:40):
wasn't her idea to murder the Rodents, she did admit
to helping plan the crimes. Now well understand, Angela Wagner
admitted to him staying at home on the night of
the murders, but said she helped her sons and husband
prepare for them. Here's Prosecutor Angela Kaneppa laying out what
Angela Wagner bought to prepare for the murders. She admits
to buying this for her sons. We show Jake at
(38:06):
least his awards card being used to buy seven six,
nine thirty two AMMO and a magazine for an SKS.
Also in April, there was a phone jammer purchased by Angela.
A phone jammer jams signals for phones. So say you're
going to go murder eight people and you don't want
(38:28):
them to be able to call for help, then you
have a phone jammer on your person and it jams
the signals. But that was purchased, and a bug detector
was purchased by Angela. The financial records also just confirm
what we already knew, which was they function as one
unit and pretty much everything they do financially is no exception.
(38:52):
Angela said that Billy came to her with this idea
that they discussed it outside in this area of you know,
like carpoort type area, and I'm trying to like envision
where exactly that would be. But they were outside the
home on Peterson Road, and Billy came up with this
and then she said, you know that they included the boys.
(39:14):
But she said she didn't go along. She did order things.
She ordered what Billy told her to order. She said,
Jake told her to go buy the Walmart shoes, and
so she did, and you know, it was just kind
of like she was the shopper almost. This is what
it sounds like. Billy took care, I guess of everything else,
and the boys took care of everything else. So you know,
(39:36):
it sounds like she was kind of throwing it all
on Billy. Let's stop here for another break. According to
Angela's testimony, Billy said they needed a vehicle for the murders.
(39:58):
Angela told George to get five thousand dollars out of
their safe and use that to purchase the truck that
would be used the night of the murders. Here's Stephanie.
She was definitely saying it as though this was Billy
and Jake and George's plan. And yes, she was kind
of going through the paces to stick to their story.
(40:20):
And yes she went and she bought the stuff, and
the shoes were something that she actually purchased. Quite obviously.
They have her on camera doing it, so on the
one hand, she's sort of just a bystander to it
and to this day claims she doesn't know the nightly details.
(40:40):
Angela testifies that prior to the murders, Billy came over
one night and was telling everyone, quote, come on, come on,
but apparently nobody listened, and so Billy got mad and left.
Nobody was moving fast enough, but the next day, Billy
Wagner came back. He told them to get ready. Prosecutor
Kneppa asks of Angela new who was going to the killings.
(41:02):
Angela's response, No, I didn't ask and I wasn't told
about the murder. To this day, she doesn't know the
details of what happened that night because they've never told
her and Billy never told her. All she knows is
what the plan was, that she had to keep the
phones and that at a certain time she would send
(41:23):
out a text as she was supposed to kind of
place the phones at the house. When Billy, Jake, and
George left for the road and households, Angela claims she
was conflicted. Angela testified about the actual day of the murders,
saying she saw Jake, George, and Billy Wagner leave that evening.
She said she was overwhelmed with emotion after they left,
(41:46):
fearing they might not come back or even what might happen.
Angela also testified she thought about racing after them to
stop them, but realized it was too late. Jeff and
Angelinette Levy. This is according to her. She stayed home
that night. It was just really interesting to me. Because
she did her part. And then she said she had
taken an ivy prof and so she fell and then
(42:06):
she fell asleep. So you know, she fell asleep as
they went on this horrific mission to kill people, even
though she said she felt bad about it and thought, oh,
I wonder if I could stop it. But you know, oh,
but I had the kids here, so she didn't take
any steps to stop it. Do you buy that at all?
(42:27):
I mean, I think she might have had some misgivings,
but no, I find it hard to believe that. Your excuses,
Oh well, I'm home with the kids, so I can't
stop them from going and killing eight people or even
one person. I mean, come on, if she wanted to
stop it, she could have stopped it. As news coverage shows,
(42:48):
the horrific events of the night unfolded as the Wagners
had planned. The night of the homicide, she said the
three Wagner men left the house together, returned together the
next morning. She didn't know who did the shooting, did
not want the details. That night, eight members of the Rodent,
Manly and Gilly families were murdered. Angela testifies that the
(43:10):
next day she heard about the murders on the news.
George Wagner's mom did say today that while she knew
what was going to happen six years ago, the homicide
still shocked her. She remembers asking her husband Billy why
so many victims? His response quote because they were there.
During cross examination of Angela Wagner, an attorney for her
son George Keaton two themes Angela's lies and her paranoia.
(43:34):
The defense team's goal is to cast blame for the
twenty sixteen Pike County massacre on Angela, her husband Billy,
and George's brother Jake, but not the man on trial
for murderer. We've heard so much about her, you know,
we've talked about her for years, and she's been kind
of like the center of all of this, and this
is the culmination of all that. I mean, what's your
take on hearing it straight from her mouth finally, Well,
(43:55):
I mean, it's shocking to hear it really is. More
on that next time. For more information on the case
and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
The Piked and Masker is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane,
Chris Cacaro, Andrew Arnow. Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.
(44:20):
Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti, Music by Jared Aston.
The Piked and Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and
Katie Studios. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters,
because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
He just walked around shot all the black people. The
cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
out how to go on and how to compete. I
(00:21):
wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
(00:44):
to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Baron bat On paper, he was perfect, but in reality,
this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
I would call him and I would say, I know
you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl
Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
(01:07):
get your podcasts. LA is expansive. There's nearly ten million
people living here and it comes with a lot of noise,
but if you tune those sounds out and listen close,
you'll hear the real LA. What a be marggim I'm
(01:27):
going to be a father? Yes You're feeling This a
fiction podcast mixtape about love. Listen to it on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast
This is the unbelievable but true story of George Ramis.
He was an eccentric and genius lawyer who figured out
how to game the system during Prohibition. Ramis is the
(01:49):
biggest man in the business, but George Ramis's wild existence
took a dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal, revenge,
and one of the most sensational murder trials in American history.
Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg King every Tuesday on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(02:14):
After spending for days listening to Jake Wagner testify against
his older brother George Jurors, today heard from both boys mother,
Angela Wagner. She speaks of her husband and her son's
in a very loving manner. She's really presenting today as
a sweet, loving mother. She's there to save her life,
(02:39):
but also the lives of her family. Lord knows how
many people that had actually stolen from it. Sounds like
the Old West because they had even gotten involvement poaching
and cattle rustling. You can have sympathy for somebody, but
when you take part in killing eight people, sorry, that
all goes out the window. This is the piked to massacre.
(03:06):
Returned to Pike County season four, episode nineteen, Angela takes
the stand. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie
Studios with Stephanie Laidicker and Jeff Shane. It's important to
note that George Wagner, the fourth has pleaded not guilty
and maintained he did not kill anyone. His father, Billy Wagner,
(03:27):
whose trial is upcoming, has also pleaded not guilty to
all charges. We've heard testimony from Jake Wagner about his
role in the crimes against the Rodin, Manly and Gilly families.
Today we're hearing from another pivotal witness for the prosecution,
and accu's killer comes face to face with his mother
for the first time since both were arrested four years ago.
(03:49):
Jurors today heard from both boys mother Angela Wagner, looking
somewhat frail and wearing a drab jail uniform. The fifty
two year old Wagner took the stand around ten fifteen
this morning. Wearing a drab black and white jail uniform.
Angela Wagner walks into the courtroom. James Pilcher, longtime investigative
reporter from Cincinnati now at Local twelve, was there when
(04:11):
Angela arrived at court. So one thing that her appearance
was much different than in the past. Her hair was
much longer. One of the other interesting details is that
she was shackled, much like her son was, but the
change were much lighter, so they made a much different
noise on the floor and she walked by, it was
more like a clank clank, clink rather than clank clank clank.
(04:33):
Here's Stephanie, who was also in the courtroom during Angela
Wagner's testimony. You can literally hear her with her shackles
coming down the hallway, which was such an eerie sound.
James Pilcher describes the atmosphere in the courtroom that day.
The courtroom, you could have heard a pin drop jak.
It wasn't like that. But when we're waiting for Angela,
for the mother of the suspect who's on trial. It
(04:56):
was definitely quiet because everybody has always thought that she
was the mastermind behind all of this, and I think
that was one thing that they were anticipating coming out.
And there was also the tension of knowing a mother
and her son were going to see each other for
the first time with her testifying against him. So there
was a lot of tension and very very quiet in
(05:17):
that courtroom when we're waiting for her to take the stand.
When she sat down, she didn't even look at George,
and George pretty much looked like he had his eyes
down the entire time. Angela Wagner chose to opt out
of having her testimony recorded. Therefore, the only people who
heard her testimony were the jury, the judge, the respective attorneys,
and the family and media that were present in the courtroom.
(05:40):
Here's Jeff speaking with Angeanette Levy, investigative reporter and host
for Law and Crime. They opted out because they could.
I thought it was completely ridiculous. You're a cooperating witness,
you're convicted, you should be forced to get up there
and face the music on camera. Did all of these
(06:01):
Rodent family members got up there and buried their souls
and were recorded. And you know, why shouldn't he and
Angela have to do the same. Does the journy know
who opts in and opts out? No, I don't believe so,
because the bailiff would go over and tell the photographer
or tell members of the media who opted and who
(06:22):
opted out. Here's forensic medical examiner Joseph Scott Morgan. It's
so very easy to forget the Rodents, and I guess
on a spiritual level of since this all kind of
kicked off, I've always imagined every single member of that
family in a spiritual form, sitting on the front row
(06:43):
watching seeing if everyone to receive any level of justice,
and this is part of that justice. These people whose poor,
poor victims. They deserve to have each individual story told
when it comes to their deaths. This is a mass murder.
You know, their lives ended it at the end of
(07:05):
the musleable weapon and cut short, every single one of them,
every sing they still be here with us today, I
have no doubt, you know, and they deserved their due.
Prosecutor Angie Kneppa begins her opening remarks for the day,
we said that if anyone else came forward and could
tell us something that was consistent with what we had
(07:27):
just heard, that would do two things for us, and
it would just be stronger corroborating evidence that another member
of the Wagner family was giving us the same information
without knowing exactly what Jake had said. Right, And that
person that came forward was Angela Wagner. Kneppa comes right
(07:47):
out of the gate with the question everyone has been
wondering about. One thing that really stuck out to me
was they approached her much differently than they ended ying.
At the very very beginning, at the very open of
her testimony, they ask a point blank, are you guilty
of taking part in these murders? Yes? Did you help
plan them? Yes? Did you help prepare for it? Yes?
(08:12):
Did you aid in a bet? Yes? Who else is
took part? My husband, Billy, my son is George, and Jake.
So suffice it to say, all four of you were
involved in these homicides that night, Yes, she was. At
the point blank, are you guilty of aggravated murder? She said, yes,
we all are. That was a really key moment. Here's
(08:36):
Mike Allen, attorney and legal analyst who's been following the
case from the beginning. I think the fact that Angie
Kaneppa asked the question are you guilty and the answer
from Angela was yes. That's a big part of her testimony,
and I think just getting that out up front, let's
the jury know that, you know, she's not messing around here,
(08:59):
and she's admitting to her involvement in it. Not necessarily
fire any weapons, but she was in it up to
her neck, and that was established early on in her testimony.
Special Prosecutor Kneppa asked Angela Wagner about her childhood. Here
again Stephanie Angela said, this is the first time I
(09:19):
had heard this. She has sort of this messy relationship
with her own father because she was feuding with him
a bit about having sex. Then she goes to the
military and is sexually assaulted, leaves there and gets married
very quickly with Billy, And she speaks of frankly Billy
(09:41):
and her grand babies and her son's in a very
loving manner. You know, she's really presenting today as a sweet,
loving mother. On the stand, Angela isn't quite what we expected.
She's soft spoken and as a bit of a baby talker,
and instantly I was expecting a much bigger presence. Here's
(10:05):
Jeff and Angeanette. What do you make of that? Do
you think that's an act or do you think that
she's kind of changed in jail. I think she was
probably a nervous b doesn't want to be there. She
may be feeling badly about throwing her son under the bus,
implicating him in these homicides. But at the same time,
I think that she's a master manipulator. I think she's
(10:28):
good at playing a role when she has to. So
you don't really buy it. I mean I don't buy
the meat mild mannered part of it. I think maybe
in that instance that was her, But she's just quiet
and soft spoken. Obviously, that's not what we've heard from
Angela Wagner on the wire taps, or what we heard
about Angela Wagner from Tabitha's testimony or Elizabeth Armer's testimony.
(10:54):
As we've talked about incessantly, she's been this monster in
our minds in certainly in mind this is the big
bad wolf, right, this is her day in court, and
this is the monster we've been talking about, and we
know that is true. She's admitted it. We've heard countless
stories about it. I'm told it's coming. We're going to
(11:15):
see the crack in her very soon. But right now,
it's kind of like watching a movie in a way.
It's almost as though, what's that movie? Primal Fear? And
Edward Norton has sort of an interesting dialect and he
has mannerisms that are very specific. And then at the
very end when he's proven to be innocent and you
(11:37):
find out that he's, ah, I was lying the whole time,
and he doesn't have an accent. He was just pretending
to be this completely different person. And it feels like
she's that right now, And I have to be honest
with you, it's very believable. You know, we've been tracking
this case so closely, and then you look at jurors
and you have to hope they're not buying it. Here again,
(12:00):
James Felcher, the tuxtaposition between what she heard on tape
and what she presented in person was much much different,
much more low key, much calmer, much more meek. As
for her demeanor, again, she's there to save her life,
but also the lives of her family as part of
(12:21):
her plea deal. So she obviously is going to be
on her best behavior, so I think that was part
of it. But I also think part of it she
was probably on her meds and she admitted that. During
cross examination, Prosecutor Kneppa asked Angela Wagner about when Jake
and George were children. Wagner testifies that she didn't think
(12:44):
George and Jake were getting the one on one attention
they needed at public school, so she and Billy decided
to homeschool them, and they began by interrogating her about
how she raised Jake and George, explaining that she homeschooled
them both until high school while their father, Billy Wagner,
allegedly taught them how to steal from trucks and trailers.
There's obviously a lack of socialization there. I mean, these
(13:06):
kids were raised and when I say kids, Jake and
George and this kind of insular upbringing where they were
homeschooled and didn't really have a lot of exposure to
the outside world. Of course, they knew people outside of
their family, but not many. They didn't really have a
lot of friends outside of you know, people who worked
(13:26):
at the Flying w and things like that. So they
didn't have a quote unquote normal childhood, and there's questions
about the curriculum. They were taught that they needed to
be there a deferential and polite, not to act up
things like that. But it was almost in a way
that they were taught these things so that they could
get away with crimes and not necessarily so they could
(13:49):
be good human beings. We heard about some of this
education in Jake's testimony. Angela Wagner's testimony expands it on
the family dynamic. She speaks about how the only would
set fires to their properties and file insurance claims. That
was one thing that the prosecution did too, and they
did it with Jake, but they did it more with Angela,
(14:11):
and that is they clearly laid out how Angela was
involved and planned several criminal acts leading up to all
of this, including the arsons. They rebuilt the house again
up there on Frederica's property, and Fredrika said, well, I'm
going to sell the property and you're not going to
(14:32):
really be compensated for the house. And at that point
Angela said, I don't want anybody living this dream house
that we built with our own bare hands. So they
burned it down for the insurance money, and they walked
through all of that. It's interesting because the way Knappa
did this was chronological, and Angela's towards the end of
this trial, and so it's almost like she's confirming all
the things that we've heard. They talked about the insurance
(14:55):
for the fires, all of these pieces that we've heard about.
Angela's like, yes, that happened, Yes, that happened, Yes, that happened.
What do you make of that? I think miss Kneppa
was doing that on purpose to show that the testimony,
Angela's testimony died with the physical evidence in the case.
And I think it was a good strategy because it
(15:15):
did line up in her testimony, I mean pretty solidly.
So I think that was a good strategy. And again,
as I said, I think Angela came off as pretty credible.
The defense lean did on these planned arsons during cross examination.
Here's James Pilcher followed by Stephanie. The defense started its
(15:35):
cross examination by leaning into Angela's previous criminal acts, including
Arson's for insurance money, shoplifting, and helping steal diesel fuel
and truckloads of goods. I think it is going to
prove to be very relevant they're painting a picture of her.
Although she was very sweet and cute all day. At
the very end cross examination happened, and that was a
(15:56):
jaw dropper because George's defense attorney, if it's on a
a pretty good display and kind of talked us through
Angela's early years and then they start getting into where
she lives and how they ended up at the house
in the end that she lived, which was pugs. What
he was painting the picture for was that, Yeah, she
has in fact burned down by arson. Three houses. She
(16:21):
had to admit to that today in the court of law.
He was like, this house was very expensive. How did
you get the money for this house? Oh? Wait, didn't
the house before this house? What happened to that house? Oh,
it burnt down, But how did you get the money
for that house? Oh? The house before that, Oh that
one burned down. So three houses and I think a
(16:42):
garage all burnt down. You got insurance money for all
of them. On cross examination, the defense asks Angela Wagner
if Jake and George were involved in the arsons. Angela's response, yes,
but who gives a damn? By the way, when all
these arsons were happening George was. One time he was sixteen,
(17:06):
one time George was fifteen. Like George was in the
home during these shenanigans. Angela also testified about other crimes
she's committed with Billy in front of the boys, including
pill running. Prosecutor Kneppa asks Angela Wagner if she's ever
stolen fuel, before Angela responds yes, she was the lookout.
(17:26):
Angela also testified that Billy taught the boys had a
siphon fuel. I think that they see themselves as engaging
in and just fibble outlawry if you if you will
that you know the government is all bad. We're really
representative of the working people you know here in this community.
(17:46):
You know it's cliche, but you know our family has
been here for generations. We know we don't know what
the real story is here. We know that you're not
going to get ahead in this world and this hardscrab
a life that we're leading. You're not going to ahead
in this world unless you you still going to some
hard working families home or the farm and robbing them,
(18:07):
are burglarizing and taking what is not theirs and being
able to justify it that it's you know, it's a
real Lord of the Flies moment and its survival of
of fittists. And they'd done that. You know, Lord knows
how many people that had actually stolen from in that community.
You know, you you think about things just uh, you know,
(18:28):
two by fours and wood paneling and you know, going
out to job sites and essentially robbing hard working people
of the things that they need to get by on.
It sounds like the Old West because they had even
gotten involved in poaching and cattle rustling of all things,
you know, student livestock. So that's an operation. That's that's
not a one man operation, is it. That's that's that's
(18:53):
a lot of work. It's not like little Jake is
just running around doing all of this stuff with this
crazy fall you gotta have multiple hands on the wheel here.
And I think that you know, this goes to George
and this this thievery, this you know, nefarious behavior. Is
it's like a virus. I think that just it spreads
like wildfire through a family because you know it's the
(19:15):
children bear witnessed it when they're growing up in the
home and they know that this is just part of
the life that they're involved in it. And you know,
what it was probably normal for them to go and
take food out of people's mouths. There's a question of
whether this kind of testimony about Jake and George's upbringing
is making them sympathetic to the jury. Here again Joseph Morgan,
(19:37):
followed by Angelinette Levy for George appoint in his life
that he was at he was still going to be
bullied by Billy and potentially by Angela as well. I
think Angela is probably chief amongst centers here. He just
couldn't get out of his own way. And so I
guess if if the jury can take away some bit
of sympathy for George as he's you know, he was
(20:00):
his own trial and the chore else, I guess that's
that's probably where it would come from. There may have
been a little bit of sympathy, but I don't think
there was a whole lot. I mean, you can have
sympathy for somebody, but when you take part in killing
eight people, sorry, that all goes out the window. It
might be an explanation, but it doesn't excuse it. We're
(20:23):
going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment. Oh,
I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends.
Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few
of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
(20:47):
he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper. But he wasn't.
He really wasn't. He shouted into the point she went unconscious.
Bob could lie about anything, only takes the one time
when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob, us girlfriends
know how to fight back. I wanted him to pay
(21:08):
for his crime. He needed to be put to justice.
I'll be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
The girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or
wherever you get your podcasts. They say history is written
(21:31):
by the victors, but you know what they've left out
A hell of a lot of juicy stuff. Take Abe
Lincoln's assassination. Did you know a young couple was sitting
right next to him when he was shot? It haunted
the husband so much he later murdered his wife. Ah,
we all know who invented that, right, and we'll think again.
(21:53):
Truth is Alexander Graham. Bell stole the idea for the
telephone and then claimed it as his own. For every
pivotal moment in history, there's always a backstory, and it's
usually way more interesting than the big story. From mysterious
murders to the baffling sleep schedules of yesteryear to the
fascinating lives of those just outside the limelight. We're going
(22:16):
to uncover the forgotten pieces of history you didn't know
you need it to know. Listen to the Backstory with
me Patty Steeles twice a week on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hello, Hello,
Malcolm glabe here, host of Revisionist History, a show about
the overlooked and the misunderstood stories you won't hear anywhere else.
(22:38):
Like our ongoing obsessive campaign to blow up the world's
most focus college ranking system, why not throw in a
few extra zeros or witness me after years of fancy
public speaking, learning that I kind of have to start
over the toe that you had to ot. The debate
was very similar to some of the students than I
(23:00):
do work with, and that's what I teach them not
to do. We're making more revisionist history for you this
year than ever from places all across this great country
emergency rooms, huge theaters, small towns, and shooting righteous and
you want to put your thumb up like the US,
You're gonna pull the trigger with this finger here. Okay,
(23:21):
listen to Revisionist History on the iHeart Radio app, Apple
Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm your host,
Billy Man, and this is okay, let's try again, getting closer, guys,
this is my podcast. Yeah, I've set up. I've been
a Grammy nominated record producer and entrepreneur for over thirty years,
and that has put me in the room with some
(23:42):
of the most successful individuals in the world. Carman, Nale,
Scoldsberry All and a Gillies. Here. You want somebody who's
all come to the right place. What I wanted to
do was have honest conversations with them about their failures.
I wasn't just changing jobs. My life was over. I
was so close to getting fired. I was failing so bad,
(24:03):
it said Kelly Rowland is no longer a viable artist.
That really did a number on me. He said, you're boring,
so get that hell out of my club. Even the
most successful people deal with feelings of failure. But what
they do is they embrace their up and they learn
from it. Listen to Yeah, I've set up on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.
(24:35):
The prosecution asks Angela about her relationship with her daughter
in laws. We've heard in previous testimony how George's ex wife,
Tabitha was essentially cut off from her child by the
Wagner family. We've also heard about how Angela claimed to
love Hannah may Roden like a daughter, but there was
friction over custody of the child she shared with Jake.
We've spoken before about how Angela wanted to spy on
(24:58):
Hannah Rodin's Facebook A Ativity prosecutor Kneppa asked how she
got access to her passwords to monitor Facebook. According to Angela,
she asked Jake and he gave it to her. Joseph
Scott Morgan. She controlled everything, and he controlled everything, even
down to the relationships that you know that she had,
(25:19):
that her sons had, you know, outside the home. You know,
with these women that came into their lives. And when
you're in a position of power where you can control
people to the point where their romantic interest is trumped
by your ability to manipulate them, where you would be
(25:40):
willing to, you know, at her direction, compel your lovers
to give over passwords and access. Just that one point
alone is really I catch it. Angela used this access
to social media to share screenshots about custody of her
granddaughter with the family. She was also trying to get
information on Tabitha, George Wagner's ex wife. This is not
(26:03):
what she said, but she's intimating that she's just protecting
her boys away from these bad girls. Essentially, he's a
reminder of what Angela Wagner said when she was recorded
by the BCI at the Canadian border. So your relationship
with him was good. Now, I thought she was a
sport wrap, but I thought she was a spool wrap
(26:25):
because she really was. I mean, no, that's that she
was her guy ever, getting away with every name. And
I thought she would give me looks and she would
Smarrow and she would tell Jacob was being mean, and
you know, but that's typical teenagers. Sometimes. Mothera was and yep.
(26:45):
Time and time again, Wagner would bring it back to
how her family was everything to her and informed everything
she did. But the prosecution brings up an incident with
Tabitha that we haven't heard about before. Here's Jeff speaking
with cris Ajeanette Levy. She also said some weird things
about Tabby. Angie Kaneppa asked her about Tabby and said,
(27:08):
you know, did Tabby ever try to poison you or
anything like that. She's like, yes, and she was just
adamant about it, just like Jake was adamant like about
certain things. She said. She described how Tabby one time
put dog hair in her coffee, and she and Jake
liked a particular type of vanilla coffee. And she said
(27:29):
she had her coffee cup one time and Tabby had
made this cup for her, and she looked at it
and she, you know, she's she said, Jake, is there
there's dog hair in this coffee, And she was serious
as could be, and she said Tabby was laughing about it.
She described another time where Tabby had made some kool
aid for George that he liked and he got really sick.
(27:50):
So she has these like things that she kind of
comes up with the dog hair in the coffee thing
was just astounding to me. She truly believed that. I
don't know if it actually happened. I can't imagine somebody
putting dog hair and somebody's coffee. It just seems like
such a strange thing. But if they believe it, it's gospel.
(28:11):
This belief in the untrue and the ability to convince
her family of it is one of Angela's strengths. According
to forensic examiner Joseph Morgan. You know, you think about Billy,
and you know Billy's they're teaching young Jake how to
hot wire car and sealing it. Well, she's doing the
same things. It's justifiable for you to betray somebody that
(28:32):
you claim to love if it's for the greater good
of the family. And so it's amazing how you can
psychologically leverage somebody with information like that, isn't it? Where
you can be the driver that you have this endwelling inertia.
You know that carries over to the family and you're
push him in the direction which you so desire. It
(28:53):
was one belief in particular that Angela held that helps
set in motion the events that led to the murder
of the road Manly and Gilly families. Angela testified she
became worried her granddaughter was being abused while staying with
the Rodent family. She said, quote, I realized something was happening,
some kind of abuse was going on that needed to
(29:15):
be stopped. Agela Wayner was asked if she loved Hannah.
She said, yes, I did at one point, but issues
made me feel like was being sexually abused. Angela said
she became concerned over signs of abuse and claims that
her grandchild would often appear reluctant to leave and return
to Hannah since they had shared custody. James Pilcher here's
her direct quote. She said, I realized something was happening,
(29:39):
some kind of abuse was going on that needed to
be stopped. And she said she didn't trust child services
or the law, our law enhorsement, and neither did her husband, Billy.
We've already established that Billy was a Doonesday or Billy
hated police. Billy paid his kids to spot police. Billy
(30:00):
his kids how to be thieves, so this all set
into it. Although Angela didn't want to kill him, it
was some of the ways she would answer she was like, well,
why did you do this? We were protecting and she
almost appeared like she was in a fog on the stand,
But then when it got to that, it was almost
like she was razor white hot when she would talk
about protecting that little girl, and then they talked about
(30:22):
Angela's passed in the Air Force and all of this
surrounding ever present fear of sexual abuse, and it became
almost a paranoia and you could see it in display
clearly when she started talking about that. So the lead
reasoning has been that she felt as though it was
(30:46):
being sexually molested or was going to be sexually molested,
not that there's ever been proof of that, but that
was the reasoning, and that at some point she noticed
that Frankie road and kissed on the lips saying goodbye,
and that felt a little strange. In fact, she actually
(31:06):
says that told her mother, Rita nukeamb who at the
time was living next door to her with her grandmother,
that she was being touched inappropriately, and then Rita Newcombe
repeated that to Angela, and then Angela repeated it to
Jake and the entire family, George and Billy. At that
(31:27):
point when Jake found out about it. Rather than talking
about it with the Rodents or anything, they just started
putting this plan together to protect her and she had
to protect the babies. But apparently Angela Wagner's assertions of
abuse were not based in reality. This fear that the
little girl would be molested. The prosecution basically says that
(31:49):
was something they kind of whipped up in their heads
to justify what they wanted to do. They are entitled
and feel that those children should be with them and
no one else. There is no doubt that this family
wanted those kids to be one hundred percent Wagner, and
that's what this is all about. They had convinced themselves
there may have been some abuse, but that was basically
(32:11):
window dressing for their their belief that these kids should
belong to them, regardless of any actual evidence of abuse.
The idea had been planted in the minds of the
Wagner family, and Angela stoked the fire. I think that
she's probably arguably the smartest one in the crew, and
the reason I think that that's it's quite ominous. I
(32:32):
think she knew what buttons to press with all three
of these men in her life, you know, She's probably
known how to control them their entire life, or at
least that portion of Billy's life that he was with her.
She knew, you know, where to press, how far she
could go to attain her goals, if you will, in
(32:53):
any of this and anything that she she set her
mind to doing. And you know, she she wanted to
be be the head hancho, you know, in the family,
and she was. She told Jeors she suspected the Rodents
were abusing, did not take her to the doctor. Said,
we didn't believe in the justice system, didn't believe in
children's services, she said. By January twenty sixteen, her husband
(33:14):
started coming up with the plan they had to be murdered.
She said. She went to her husband, Billy, with her concerns,
saying she wanted to turn in Chris Roden Senior for
growing marijuana. Billy nixed that, coming up with an alternate plan.
She said, quote the plan was they needed to be murdered. Later,
she said, her husband told the entire family, quote, this
(33:35):
was going to change everything. According to Angelo Agnes's testimony,
Billy came up with the plan for murder. Billy ultimately
decided that the only way was to kill Hannah, and
that they couldn't stop short of killing Hannah Rodin, the
mother of but they would have to kill Chris Rodin
Senior because he ultimately exercise control over Hannah and the
(33:58):
Roden family, and that other witnesses, other members of the
Rodent family would have to be killed for it to
be successful. That's essentially what Angela testified, and that really
was Billy who was a driver here. Angela wanted to
turn Chris Sinior in for his marijuana and then that
would get the family in trouble, and therefore maybe Jake
(34:21):
would get more visitation rights or more control over the
over the fate of his daughter and her granddaughter. Well,
of course that cut too close for home for Billy,
because Billy had been in business with Chris. Chris Sinior
had tried to teach Billy how to grow marijuana. And
then so she says, Billy came up with this alternate plan.
(34:43):
Here's the quote quote. The plan was they needed to
be murdered, yeah, and then it progressed from there that Okay,
we're gonna start talking about how we're going to do it.
And she said that they would actually have conversations with
the water running, or outside in the carboard with the
car running, without the TV's on, with no phones around
because they're so paranoid of being overheard. During one of
(35:07):
these meetings with George and Jake Wagner in the kitchen,
Angela asked her sons if they wanted to go through
with the murders. According to Angela, they said yes. Joseph
Morgan says that the accusation of molestation would get the
rest of the Wagner family to do what Angela wanted.
She was the person that had the thirty thousand foot
(35:27):
view of the entire family. She saw where all the
weaknesses were, she saw where the strengths were, and she
knew what the goal was in order to win, you know.
And I think that her endgame has always been to have,
you know, total control over the Wagner family. And you know,
she was going to be she's a run her own ship,
and she's she's the master of the ship as well,
(35:49):
and all of these people are there to do her bidding.
And you know, Billy may have had this thought at
a real primal level. I think that he needed to
take care of the rodents. But it was in my opinion, least,
it was an Angela that was overlording all of this
all the way along. In episode four thirteen, we saw
evidence of how Angela manipulated Billy through text messages. I
(36:11):
am moving on. You are more than welcome to come
bring babies and come on, Angela, well, they are not
our babies. And I would never do that to George
and Jake. I would have killed someone if they would
have even mentioned going away with my babies. And if
you really missed me, you would do anything or go
through anything for me. Billy. It's a fine mess, Angela.
(36:32):
Well maybe it is worth you helping me work it out. Billy.
I got a plan if you just take one damn
minute and listen. Angela. Okay, tell me, Billy when I
see you. This is the last time I am going
to try. If the three of you don't take time
to listen to me, then oh well, Angela okay. Joseph
Morgan isn't an amazing a fund, you know, and Angela
(36:54):
is certainly a fun example of this. It's very easy
for her to rationalize justify her actions. She doesn't necessarily
do in court, but the lead up to it, when
she's the driver behind all of this is that she's
looking out for the greater good of the family. You know,
it's the women. The women are all women of ill repute.
(37:16):
The kids that she does not have and her immediate
control run the risk of being sexually molested. That she
needs to be the one to provide watch care and
the family has to watch over them at all time.
The rest of the world is evil, We're the ones
that are right. And isn't that interesting how her worldview
kind of parallels that of Billy's. While Angela testified it
(37:40):
wasn't her idea to murder the Rodents, she did admit
to helping plan the crimes. Now well understand, Angela Wagner
admitted to him staying at home on the night of
the murders, but said she helped her sons and husband
prepare for them. Here's Prosecutor Angela Kaneppa laying out what
Angela Wagner bought to prepare for the murders. She admits
to buying this for her sons. We show Jake at
(38:06):
least his awards card being used to buy seven six,
nine thirty two AMMO and a magazine for an SKS.
Also in April, there was a phone jammer purchased by Angela.
A phone jammer jams signals for phones. So say you're
going to go murder eight people and you don't want
(38:28):
them to be able to call for help, then you
have a phone jammer on your person and it jams
the signals. But that was purchased, and a bug detector
was purchased by Angela. The financial records also just confirm
what we already knew, which was they function as one
unit and pretty much everything they do financially is no exception.
(38:52):
Angela said that Billy came to her with this idea
that they discussed it outside in this area of you know,
like carpoort type area, and I'm trying to like envision
where exactly that would be. But they were outside the
home on Peterson Road, and Billy came up with this
and then she said, you know that they included the boys.
(39:14):
But she said she didn't go along. She did order things.
She ordered what Billy told her to order. She said,
Jake told her to go buy the Walmart shoes, and
so she did, and you know, it was just kind
of like she was the shopper almost. This is what
it sounds like. Billy took care, I guess of everything else,
and the boys took care of everything else. So you know,
(39:36):
it sounds like she was kind of throwing it all
on Billy. Let's stop here for another break. According to
Angela's testimony, Billy said they needed a vehicle for the murders.
(39:58):
Angela told George to get five thousand dollars out of
their safe and use that to purchase the truck that
would be used the night of the murders. Here's Stephanie.
She was definitely saying it as though this was Billy
and Jake and George's plan. And yes, she was kind
of going through the paces to stick to their story.
(40:20):
And yes she went and she bought the stuff, and
the shoes were something that she actually purchased. Quite obviously.
They have her on camera doing it, so on the
one hand, she's sort of just a bystander to it
and to this day claims she doesn't know the nightly details.
(40:40):
Angela testifies that prior to the murders, Billy came over
one night and was telling everyone, quote, come on, come on,
but apparently nobody listened, and so Billy got mad and left.
Nobody was moving fast enough, but the next day, Billy
Wagner came back. He told them to get ready. Prosecutor
Kneppa asks of Angela new who was going to the killings.
(41:02):
Angela's response, No, I didn't ask and I wasn't told
about the murder. To this day, she doesn't know the
details of what happened that night because they've never told
her and Billy never told her. All she knows is
what the plan was, that she had to keep the
phones and that at a certain time she would send
(41:23):
out a text as she was supposed to kind of
place the phones at the house. When Billy, Jake, and
George left for the road and households, Angela claims she
was conflicted. Angela testified about the actual day of the murders,
saying she saw Jake, George, and Billy Wagner leave that evening.
She said she was overwhelmed with emotion after they left,
(41:46):
fearing they might not come back or even what might happen.
Angela also testified she thought about racing after them to
stop them, but realized it was too late. Jeff and
Angelinette Levy. This is according to her. She stayed home
that night. It was just really interesting to me. Because
she did her part. And then she said she had
taken an ivy prof and so she fell and then
(42:06):
she fell asleep. So you know, she fell asleep as
they went on this horrific mission to kill people, even
though she said she felt bad about it and thought, oh,
I wonder if I could stop it. But you know, oh,
but I had the kids here, so she didn't take
any steps to stop it. Do you buy that at all?
(42:27):
I mean, I think she might have had some misgivings,
but no, I find it hard to believe that. Your excuses,
Oh well, I'm home with the kids, so I can't
stop them from going and killing eight people or even
one person. I mean, come on, if she wanted to
stop it, she could have stopped it. As news coverage shows,
(42:48):
the horrific events of the night unfolded as the Wagners
had planned. The night of the homicide, she said the
three Wagner men left the house together, returned together the
next morning. She didn't know who did the shooting, did
not want the details. That night, eight members of the Rodent,
Manly and Gilly families were murdered. Angela testifies that the
(43:10):
next day she heard about the murders on the news.
George Wagner's mom did say today that while she knew
what was going to happen six years ago, the homicide
still shocked her. She remembers asking her husband Billy why
so many victims? His response quote because they were there.
During cross examination of Angela Wagner, an attorney for her
son George Keaton two themes Angela's lies and her paranoia.
(43:34):
The defense team's goal is to cast blame for the
twenty sixteen Pike County massacre on Angela, her husband Billy,
and George's brother Jake, but not the man on trial
for murderer. We've heard so much about her, you know,
we've talked about her for years, and she's been kind
of like the center of all of this, and this
is the culmination of all that. I mean, what's your
take on hearing it straight from her mouth finally, Well,
(43:55):
I mean, it's shocking to hear it really is. More
on that next time. For more information on the case
and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
The Piked and Masker is produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Jeff Shane,
Chris Cacaro, Andrew Arnow. Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.
(44:20):
Editing and sound designed by Jeff Ti, Music by Jared Aston.
The Piked and Masker is a production of iHeartRadio and
Katie Studios. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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