September 23, 2020 • 41 mins
With the Wagner family awaiting their day in court, the residents of Piketon are left to wonder how the largest criminal investigation in Ohio’s history will end.
In episode nine, we explore unheard topics such as how the community reacted to the newfound attention and how our team began producing the podcast. We’ll also answer questions submitted by listeners that pertain to the case.
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piked In Massacre, Episode nine. We're going to do something
a little bit different for this episode and go into
(02:10):
the process of producing the podcast and also answer some
questions we've been getting over social media. I'm Courtney Armstrong.
I work at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane.
We're finally together again, distance but together. Yeah, because of
COVID we've all been recording separately, but we're actually in
the same socially distanced space today for the first time
(02:33):
in many months, and we are sitting outside to keep safe.
One of the things a bunch of people have asked
about is how we came upon this case, and Jeff,
do you want to speak to that, because you really
were the impetus for it. Yeah. At Katie Studios, we
(02:55):
do a lot of true crime programming, and so we're
always kind of on the lookout for interesting cases that
are layered and complex that could make for you know,
compelling television documentaries. And you know, when it first happened,
when the Rodents were first murdered, it got a fair
amount of attention at the beginning, and as we've talked about,
pretty quickly, the media kind of backed off when there
(03:16):
weren't arrests, and that was kind of all there was
to it in terms of our knowledge. And then in
June of twenty eighteen, I read an article by Jeff Winkler,
who you've all heard during this podcast, that he wrote
for The Outline, a long form article about the crime
that really he did such a good job of laying
out the story and what happened and the people involved,
(03:38):
and it immediately struck a chord with me, just the
human element of it all and how tragic it was.
And so reached out to Jeff Winkler and started the
conversation about figuring out how we could make this some
sort of long form documentary. Yeah. So here's an excerpt
of him talking about piked in and part of what
drew us all in. So I remember that very specifically.
(04:00):
It was a big media story for about two weeks,
and you know, everybody from all overcame to cover it,
all over the world, and then they left and the
murder was still insolved. How did you end up writing
because you wrote a pretty big piece. What was told
me about that? I wrote a piece about a year later.
This was, after all the sort of fanfare and media
(04:24):
attention went away, and I went to Piketon a year later,
almost to the day, about a year or two the
day of the killings, and I wanted to see how
the town was doing, both the community and the people
who were directly involved in it, because at that point
there was still no suspects, no one was really arrested
(04:48):
or being prosecuted for the crime, and it was the
largest unsolved murder in Ohio's history, and the second largest
mass murder that year in the United States, after the
Poles shoot being in Florida. We'd been tracking this case
since it happened, and when we first got involved, the
(05:08):
Wagners hadn't been arrested or weren't even being looked at
as suspects by detectives. So we pitched the idea of
this documentary to Rod Asa and Corey Abraham, who are
executives at NBC Universal's Oxygen Network, And really the spirit
of that was that this huge crime had occurred to
the poor road In family and the killer was at
(05:28):
large and they were still out there. Cut to the
Wagners get arrested, and our executives at Oxygen call us
and put us on a plane to piked In. Yeah,
I mean, let's talk about we've spent I mean, I
think between the three of us weeks in piked In
over the course of many trips, and yeah, you guys
spent more time there than I did. So I'd be
curious what your take on it is. My first time
(05:50):
was when we were going to do the doc and
I flew by myself, I think on Thanksgiving and met
Jeff Winkler, who of course wrote this an article, who
we were you know, just talking to and brainstorming with.
You know, initially, this trip, Stephanie that you're talking about
was literally nine days after the arrest. You know, the
Wagoners were arrested on November thirteen, twenty eighteen. She's on
(06:12):
a plane on November twenty second, and so it was
really soon after that the team was there, and I
mean the town wasn't I think a form of shell
shock at that point. I think the mood in the
town was really palpable. There were something very big about
what was happening around us. You know, we've said this before.
It is a very small town, two thousand people, so
(06:34):
to have eight people murdered out of those two thousand.
Every single person in the town is affected to some
degree or knows somebody six degrees of separation who was
either on the Wagoner side or on the road And side.
So everyone was very affected, and asking questions about this
huge crime at that time, you know, can be hard
(06:57):
because it's a sensitive topic. And it seems as though
the time of Piked, and specifically in many of the
family members of victims or on the Wagner side that
in previous incarnations had been treated very poorly by the press,
So we wanted to be very sensitive about that. Yeah.
Another thing Jeff Winkler talked to us about was his
visit in twenty seventeen. I think this thing that stood
(07:18):
up for me when I went in to visit was
just how human everyone was. And I know that sounds
a little tripe, but I mean I grew up in
the Ozarks in Arkansas, So coming up from the Ozarks
and then spend time in Texas and Tennessee, this is
where I think the stories are and the coverage needs
to be done more. And you know, when an initial
(07:39):
coverage happened, you know, it was just these sort of
footage and quotes from sad sort of backwoods people is
how they're perceived. But everyone there is full of faith
and humor, and you know, real sort of American mentality.
People I met there who had family members still had
(08:01):
a sort of a grim humor about things. So it
was a way of coping. And people found faith in
the local church. And you find these sort of avenues
that people from anywhere find to grieve and to sort
of move on. And that was I think that was
the biggest thing when I went there. Jeff Wickler ended
up becoming the greatest. We popped in a car and
(08:24):
drove I don't know, probably fifteen hours a day door
to door to various people's homes between Kentucky and Ohio.
You know, Jeff Winkler, he knew this area. He'd been
to piked in many times prior, so he had already
been there and had the lay of the land. I hadn't.
And you know, we've been tracking this case from far
(08:45):
far away. It's articles, it's newspapers, it's news clippings. You know,
you develop this relationship with the victims and the victims families,
and now they accused simply by staring at their photos
excessively and obsessively so for me getting there was fascinating,
even just getting off the plane and renting a car
(09:06):
to drive to piked In and seeing the water tower
as I had seen in so many photos, and wanting
to kind of understand better where the high school was,
and you know, where everybody lived, and I just remember
being emotional, and it's hard. You know, we make prime
shows for a living, but then sometimes when you're submerged
in the place and you know what the grief is
(09:28):
that everybody is experiencing on the victim's side and on
the accused side, it's a town ripped apart. And to
Jeff's point, there's not a single person at the gas
station or at the walmart or at the local restaurant
that isn't either a thought, you know, isn't talking about
it or thinking about it. To your point about showing
(09:49):
up and just knocking on doors. As TV producers were
used to being able to call people and book some
of these shows over the phone, piked In, I think
is a little bit of an outlier. You know, there's
no a lot of cell service there. People live in
the hills and it's hard to get someone on the phone,
and so really the only way to do it was
to show up, knock on the door, you know, with
(10:09):
a smart hill and a box of cookies or a pie,
and just hope that people would a answer the door
and be let us in, which luckily the town of
piked In was really, for the most part, very kind
and receptive to us as complete outsiders being there. Yeah,
the first place I went was Rita Newcome's home and
knocked on her door, and she was lovely invited me
(10:34):
right in. You know, she was in fact wearing an
ankle bracelet because she had recently been released, and to
be truthful, at the moment, I didn't realize how embedded
she potentially was in this investigation. The first morning I
was there was the arrangement of Jake Wagner, and there's
an interesting experience. The courtroom was packed and completely silent.
(10:58):
It was delayed by almost forty minutes. It was supposed
to be nine o'clock start, and I've never sat in
a more silent room filled with people. And it was
a very interesting experience seeing Jake walk in and hearing
his plea and sitting near members of the Rodent family.
(11:19):
Were people on both sides where people on his side
where people on the road and side, Like, what was
your experience like, Yeah, people were definitely on both sides,
and the Rodents was absolutely filled and the Wagner side
was much more sparsely filled. Do you think that speaks
to what we've been hearing and what we've been trying
(11:39):
to convey with this podcast, which is that the road
and family was so incredibly close and as we were told,
family over everything. Yeah. Absolutely, and just the devastation that
ripped through that family is a little hard to comprehend.
So people were definitely there, people who were definitely very sad.
It was very tragic, and but they were there showing
(12:02):
their support. I remember when Courtney was at that arrayment
like calling you just to see what was it like.
You know, again, we have these visions in our head
based solely on photographs of the Wagner family, Jake Wagner
being the youngest, just to kind of be able to
see him face to face air quotes, or at least
kind of look in his eyes to see, you know,
(12:23):
does that look like a person who could actually commit
something so heinous? And the truth is it's really an
unanswerable question. A lot of people understandably, a lot of
listeners have asked about where the children are now. Kylie,
who is Hannah Roden's newborn baby, is with her father,
(12:44):
Charlie Gilly. She was the infant that was just born
five days prior to Hannah Roden. I would say for
all of us too, and this probably would apply to
listeners too. The fact that there were such small infants
and young children left alive at the scene just kind
of puts a dagger in your heart. So unfortunately, Sophia Wagner,
who is the child of Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin,
(13:06):
is in the care of Child Protective Services, and that's
something I know the Rodin family is unhappy about, and
I know specifically in the Wagner side of it, Deray
is unhappy about. I think the feeling is that there
are people who are blood related to Sophia who could
give her a really good home right now. So here's
a little bit from Deray about that. So you were
(13:27):
actually hoping to like take Sophia in and give her,
you know, a safe and comfortable home while all this
is happening. Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm a I'm a professional.
I mean I take in children with trauma that's my profession,
that's what I like to do. I have two boys
with me now who have autism. They're excellent children, they
(13:52):
are well loved, their proof in the pudding, and we
would have had a really good time, so they couldn't
even like you couldn't even see so Fia if you
wanted to, I could not. All I want her to
know is she's loved. I don't want her to think
anything's wrong. So something yeah, that we've been asked about
(14:13):
by a fair amount of listeners was how the podcast
has affected the people that we interviewed and the people
that have spoken out about it. And I think for
the most part, it's been pretty positive in terms of
who we've talked to in their experience in piked It
Living and piked In Barb for example, told us that
she felt like the podcast represented the town well and
(14:35):
the story in a fair way. Angie Montgomery, who we
talked about her cousin Curtis and Jenny's case, felt happy
that we were finally shedding a light on something that
people haven't really been talking about. That was a really
important piece of this for us, because we care deeply
about piked In first and foremost we've been there many,
many times. The town has been extremely kind to us
(14:56):
at a time that not everyone has been that kind
to them, and making sure that we weren't coming across
in any universe as being insensitive to the victims and
the victims families, understanding that there's a gag order, understanding
that anything somebody says could have impacts on upcoming trials.
(15:17):
It's important. The stakes are actually extremely high, and we're
wildly aware of that, but it's hard not to be
emotional about it, or to get emotionally attached to an answer,
or you know, want to really understand who the boogeyman is,
who's responsible for something so horrible, And as a result,
I think every time we get involved deeper into this case,
we want to know more. Is it possible that, hopefully
(15:40):
the mom isn't involved, This couldn't be if Angela Wagner
was at the center of it. Is it because she
was being forced to be so by her husband or
is that just a lie? Or was Angela wildly manipulative
and coerced her boys in the spirit of defending her
family and defending her Sophia. And if that's the case,
(16:00):
what a silly plan because now you're never going to
see your boys again. You've all been separated. If convicted,
you'll never cross paths unless one of you folds on
the other in court. And with four people, you know,
if indeed they are deemed guilty, there's the question that
we raised a few episodes ago about the informant and
who that is. There is an informant who's been written about,
(16:23):
and if it is one of the four, you know,
if they've turned on the rest of their family, how
that would bear out, because it would be hard to
manage that guilt for years and years. Let's stop here
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just over four years, people, in my opinion, packed mentality
would suggest that at some point the night of the murders,
(20:06):
if the Wagners did in fact do it, that there
was a heavy there was somebody who was the real leader, right,
and that the real leader reminds everybody, this is why
we have to do this. We're protecting our own or
we're protecting our family, or we're protecting Sophia, and to
some degree everybody follows along. Again, at four different times,
somebody could have changed their vote. Who knows what the
(20:27):
circumstances of were that night. Although we're desperate too now
add four years, four years separated, there's zero chance that
all four of them will stick to the exact same story,
not have the exact same amount of guilt, like somebody's
going to crack. If that's the informant, it makes a
ton of sense. And if that's the informant, who is
(20:48):
either trying to spare themselves or spare their family somehow.
That to me would make a lot of sense. The
fact that George Wagner is requesting of Bible and requesting
solitary confinement for lengthy periods of time, to me, has
always been a bit of a tell you know, Jake, Yes,
(21:08):
you're caught up. If in fact this is true, that
you need to have custody of your child and you're
heartbroken and the love of your life is dating somebody
else and just had a baby with somebody else, and
it's filled with passion. It's a passion kill. We make
crime shows for a living. Oftentimes it's love or money
or revenge. Defending your family. This checks all of those boxes.
(21:30):
But that was then. Now add four years realizing you're
not around your daughter any longer, you've committed mass murder
from which you can never go back. Somebody has to crack,
is my point. Just as a legal reminder, Angela, Billy Jake,
and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's
(21:52):
mother Rita Joe Nukam and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were
both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was
also charge with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty,
and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt has proven.
Can we talk about one thing that has always I'm
going to speak for all of us, but is the
thing in my head that I can never get out
(22:14):
of it in terms of whether or not we believe,
which frankly matters for nothing if the Wagoners are in
fact guilty or not. It's the hacking. Why were they
hacking the Rodent family for as long as they were?
And according to the official documents that we have seen,
it has been reported about also that in fact they
(22:37):
were busting into all of their social media Why in
such a mass in such a big way too, It's
not as though it was. It doesn't appear to be
jump in if I'm incorrect. It doesn't appear that, say,
for example, Jake was hacking Hannah Rodin's Facebook because he
was wildly jealous about her new relationship, or that she
had moved on in a new relationship. That is terrible
(22:59):
to do under any circumstance. But that seems like a
young person's effort. But it doesn't seem like that was
the case. It was a fairly high level surveillance operation
happening to all of them. And why. What has been
brought up in court is that it was deeply organized.
I mean, they were Excel spreadsheets, done, hundreds and hundreds
(23:21):
of entries about child custody. They put up cameras, and
they were in all of their computers and phones. It
was really elaborate. It was elaborate, and they were the
Wagoners were often together. So was this an activity just
because they wanted to track Hannah's relationship or like, where
(23:42):
were they tracking? You know? What makes the most sense
on the surface, and again allegedly, is that they were
tracking the coming and goings and tracking the property and
understanding the dogs. It did seem as though big dogs
were common, and we know for a fact that the
road in said attack dogs. Why didn't the dogs attack?
(24:05):
That really does make no sense. Still, However, if you
knew the dogs, and you had been to the home
many times, as certainly Jake would have been many times,
and you had an understanding of kind of how that
home worked and what their habits were, it does feel
like an indicant that the Wagners were up to no good.
If they were legitimately cyberstalking an entire family just months
(24:29):
prior to that family's tragic death. Clinton from Ganado, Texas
asked us why Sophia wasn't with her mom the night
of the murders and was it under unusual circumstances that
she was picked up by Jake Wagner And yeah, it's
it's up for debate why Sophia wasn't with Hannah. Jake
(24:50):
Wagner has admitted that he did pick Sophia up a
day earlier than he originally planned, and that so she
wasn't with her mom that fateful Friday evening. Jake Wagner
said on the record, I reckon we missed it by
just a few hours, and by it he means the murders.
And so we don't know what happened between Jake Wagner
and Hannah wrote in the night of the murders, or
why he told her he was picking her up early,
(25:11):
or why he did pick her up early, but we
do know she was supposed to be with her mom
that night, and for reasons we don't know, Jake Wagner
did take her home early. And my expectation would be
if we have texts exchanges, just based on the fact
that we know that people text so frequently because the
reception between phones can be spotty in these rural places,
there has to be some sort of a message saying
(25:32):
I will pick her up early or requesting to pick
her up early. I think that is another huge smoking gun,
the fact that Sophia wasn't there that day and was
picked up by Jake off of schedule. He's changed his
story on this a couple of times, and I think
this was a key place where there wasn't inconsistency about
this topic. But regardless, it is suspicious and we disagree
(25:53):
on that. I think things happen, and what seems the
simplest explanation to me is that Hannah had just had
a baby days before, and maybe she wanted a break
with just her infant and not a toddler. But something
we don't know. Jay from Storm like Iowa, asked us
(26:15):
what happens if the Wagners get off, will they get
custody of Sophia. I can only imagine that if the
Wagoners do get off, they will attempt to get back
to their normal life, and it's possible they would want
custody of Sophia, But former prosecutor Mike Allen told me
that because they were so closely linked to the murders,
it may be difficult for Jake Wagner's to obtain custody, which,
(26:39):
if he's innocent, is tragic to think that because he
was mixed up in this, he wouldn't be able to
get to raise his daughter. Here's an excerpt of that
conversation with Mike Allen. So let's say Jake Wagner does
get off and has proven not guilty. So do you
think he doesn't he doesn't have a chance of getting
Sophia back. It probably has a chance of getting her
(26:59):
back by I think a judge would be hard pressed
to grant custody for someone who was named as a
defendant in a multiple homicide case, even if he is acquitted.
You just don't know. But I'll tell you what, that's
not going to be decided, I don't think for for
many years to come. Even if he let's say he
(27:19):
really didn't do it and he's being held, you know,
wrongly accused, that he never gets to see his daughter,
against never see her. Dabt like that even alone is
such a tragedy. If well if there's no evidence or
no strong evidence against him and he's acquitted and people
are scratching her head thinking well, why was he even indicted.
I suppose he would have a chance then, but you
(27:40):
never know, I mean, you never know what happens in
a criminal trial. The custody battle is one that will
probably outlive the criminal case. That will probably go on
for years and years and years. I mean, obviously it
was a contentious subject before the murders. Again many believe
(28:01):
that that was the primary motive, but that will continue
to go on. They'll probably be numerous court hearings for
years until that's finally settled. And that's a shame because
the children, if they're not already hurt, which of course
they are, they're going to continue to be victimized, probably
for a long time to come. Susan from nu Vienna,
(28:30):
Ohio asked us when the trials are supposed to begin,
and that's an interesting question. Obviously the Wagners did waive
their right to a speedy trial, but now because of COVID,
it seems that the trials have been delayed. Billy Wagner's attorney,
Mark Collins, said that the trials have been put on hold. Angela,
(28:51):
Wagner's attorney said something different. He said the trials were
supposed to begin this fall, which would be very soon,
if not imminent. So it's unclear about what is exactly
is happening, but we do know that right now the
pre trial hearings are happening. George Wagner just had his
last week, so things are starting to move in the
right direction. There was an attempt to be made to
(29:12):
get him released on bond. Seems very different than somebody
being held in solitary confinement with a Bible waiting for
their last days. These are death penalty trials, you know,
that's not to be underestimated. For separate capital punishment trials
are a big deal, and one surely affects the other,
and any inconsistency from one to the next has to
(29:33):
be a paramount to all I would imagine, you know,
I don't know the answer to that. That's a good question,
because they are four separate trials, so I don't know
actually if one has bearing on the other. I mean,
you know, you'd assume the evidence some of it will
be similar, but it's all going to be dependent. For example,
(29:54):
I remember reading that DNA. There is confirmed that the
prosecution has DNA evidence. What that evidence is, we don't know,
but there's been made mention of it. So you know,
the fact that there's differences in DNA is going to
change the course of those four trials completely. I was
just suggesting that those four trials, I guess the narrative
(30:17):
from each of the Wagner members family members has to
be pretty buttoned up. If there's one inconsistency between Jake's
story and his mom's story or their dad's story, that's
a big deal. Let's stop here for another quick break.
We'll be back in a moment. You will fail. So
(30:43):
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call from Belfast, Ohio, who asked us if something happens
(34:25):
and the Wagners are found not guilty, how do we
think the town would react to them being back in
piked In and would they be able to stay in
the town. It's a it's a good question, and based
on what we've heard and the reaction to the Wagners,
I personally think it would be really hard for them
to stay and piked In. You know, we talked to
a Wagner family member who wished to remain anonymous, who
(34:47):
gave us some pretty horrible details about what happened to
them before the arrests. That being said, you know, Frederica
does have a lot of land in piked In, and
they have a lot of ties to the community, so
they might that might be where they would call home.
Fred Rika Wagner is also an interesting piece to this puzzle.
By all accounts, she's the great matriarch of the Wagner Empire.
(35:07):
And you know, she looks like such a beautiful grandmother,
like you would conjure up in your head or if
you were casting a movie, that you wouldn't believe somebody
could look so perfect. She was this little black lace,
not a veil over her face. It's sort of like
an overlay, but it's really a look that makes you think, oh,
(35:29):
she could never be involved. And she's so beloved by
the town and has done so many charitable things. That's
a real cross section of opinion by so many. Some
people say that she is a pure saint, the kindest,
the nicest, the most genuine, the most charitable human that
has ever walked the earth, and others say she's downright wicked.
(35:51):
I mean, listen, there's two sides to every coin, and
I think both of what you said bears out. It
really depends on what your perspective is. If you are
one of the people who Frederica Wagner has helped along
the way and provided food and assistance. You are going
to see the godly woman that so many people speak of.
(36:12):
And if you are one of the people who were
renting land that you were supposed to be buying at
the end of it, and then you allegedly had that
land pulled out from under you and revert back to Frederica,
then you're going to feel very very differently. Both things
are true, both things are true. That's I guess what's
(36:33):
so complicated about this. So you know, discovery continues, and
these trials I think would be set sooner than later.
I would imagine the hope the defense of the Wagners
was trying to move the trial outside of Piketon because
(36:55):
getting twelve unbiased jurors might be challenging, and they were
ultimately to that privilege. That's kind of a strike against
the defense. What we have heard from the prosecution is
that they are accumulating a lot of evidence at this point,
and much of it we can't get our hands on,
So they've been pretty tight lipped outside of the silencers,
(37:15):
the vests, the shoes that were bought at Walmart, DNA
evidence that's you said to be found at one, if
not multiple crime scenes, but outside of that, they've kept
a lot of things to themselves, understandably so, and that
I think we're going to hear about sooner than later.
Because who goes first, I think is very interesting. Who
(37:37):
do you guys think will be up first? You know,
I'll go just by the arraignment, and I believe I'm
correct that Jake Wagner was the first of the Wagners
to be arraigned, So I would bet Jake. And a
lot of the thought is that, you know, since custody
allegedly is at the center, so I say, Jake Wagner.
(38:01):
I was going to say that the eldest son, George Wagner,
would be up first, but wow, what a shocker if
Jake Wagner is up first, because then, to me, there's
no question that his involvement with the Rodents is at
the center of these trials at the bare minimum, whether
he did or did not do it, That one piece
would follow all of the trials, I would imagine. Reach
(38:31):
out to us on our social media outlets with questions.
We're on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at pikedon Massacre. We
look forward to answering your questions and upcoming episodes Pikedon
Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie Laidecker and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional
(38:51):
producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The Pikedon Massacre
is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more
podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. So you
(39:12):
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terms and conditions at unest dot COO. Welcome to the
piked In Massacre, Episode nine. We're going to do something
a little bit different for this episode and go into
(02:10):
the process of producing the podcast and also answer some
questions we've been getting over social media. I'm Courtney Armstrong.
I work at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane.
We're finally together again, distance but together. Yeah, because of
COVID we've all been recording separately, but we're actually in
the same socially distanced space today for the first time
(02:33):
in many months, and we are sitting outside to keep safe.
One of the things a bunch of people have asked
about is how we came upon this case, and Jeff,
do you want to speak to that, because you really
were the impetus for it. Yeah. At Katie Studios, we
(02:55):
do a lot of true crime programming, and so we're
always kind of on the lookout for interesting cases that
are layered and complex that could make for you know,
compelling television documentaries. And you know, when it first happened,
when the Rodents were first murdered, it got a fair
amount of attention at the beginning, and as we've talked about,
pretty quickly, the media kind of backed off when there
(03:16):
weren't arrests, and that was kind of all there was
to it in terms of our knowledge. And then in
June of twenty eighteen, I read an article by Jeff Winkler,
who you've all heard during this podcast, that he wrote
for The Outline, a long form article about the crime
that really he did such a good job of laying
out the story and what happened and the people involved,
(03:38):
and it immediately struck a chord with me, just the
human element of it all and how tragic it was.
And so reached out to Jeff Winkler and started the
conversation about figuring out how we could make this some
sort of long form documentary. Yeah. So here's an excerpt
of him talking about piked in and part of what
drew us all in. So I remember that very specifically.
(04:00):
It was a big media story for about two weeks,
and you know, everybody from all overcame to cover it,
all over the world, and then they left and the
murder was still insolved. How did you end up writing
because you wrote a pretty big piece. What was told
me about that? I wrote a piece about a year later.
This was, after all the sort of fanfare and media
(04:24):
attention went away, and I went to Piketon a year later,
almost to the day, about a year or two the
day of the killings, and I wanted to see how
the town was doing, both the community and the people
who were directly involved in it, because at that point
there was still no suspects, no one was really arrested
(04:48):
or being prosecuted for the crime, and it was the
largest unsolved murder in Ohio's history, and the second largest
mass murder that year in the United States, after the
Poles shoot being in Florida. We'd been tracking this case
since it happened, and when we first got involved, the
(05:08):
Wagners hadn't been arrested or weren't even being looked at
as suspects by detectives. So we pitched the idea of
this documentary to Rod Asa and Corey Abraham, who are
executives at NBC Universal's Oxygen Network, And really the spirit
of that was that this huge crime had occurred to
the poor road In family and the killer was at
(05:28):
large and they were still out there. Cut to the
Wagners get arrested, and our executives at Oxygen call us
and put us on a plane to piked In. Yeah,
I mean, let's talk about we've spent I mean, I
think between the three of us weeks in piked In
over the course of many trips, and yeah, you guys
spent more time there than I did. So I'd be
curious what your take on it is. My first time
(05:50):
was when we were going to do the doc and
I flew by myself, I think on Thanksgiving and met
Jeff Winkler, who of course wrote this an article, who
we were you know, just talking to and brainstorming with.
You know, initially, this trip, Stephanie that you're talking about
was literally nine days after the arrest. You know, the
Wagoners were arrested on November thirteen, twenty eighteen. She's on
(06:12):
a plane on November twenty second, and so it was
really soon after that the team was there, and I
mean the town wasn't I think a form of shell
shock at that point. I think the mood in the
town was really palpable. There were something very big about
what was happening around us. You know, we've said this before.
It is a very small town, two thousand people, so
(06:34):
to have eight people murdered out of those two thousand.
Every single person in the town is affected to some
degree or knows somebody six degrees of separation who was
either on the Wagoner side or on the road And side.
So everyone was very affected, and asking questions about this
huge crime at that time, you know, can be hard
(06:57):
because it's a sensitive topic. And it seems as though
the time of Piked, and specifically in many of the
family members of victims or on the Wagner side that
in previous incarnations had been treated very poorly by the press,
So we wanted to be very sensitive about that. Yeah.
Another thing Jeff Winkler talked to us about was his
visit in twenty seventeen. I think this thing that stood
(07:18):
up for me when I went in to visit was
just how human everyone was. And I know that sounds
a little tripe, but I mean I grew up in
the Ozarks in Arkansas, So coming up from the Ozarks
and then spend time in Texas and Tennessee, this is
where I think the stories are and the coverage needs
to be done more. And you know, when an initial
(07:39):
coverage happened, you know, it was just these sort of
footage and quotes from sad sort of backwoods people is
how they're perceived. But everyone there is full of faith
and humor, and you know, real sort of American mentality.
People I met there who had family members still had
(08:01):
a sort of a grim humor about things. So it
was a way of coping. And people found faith in
the local church. And you find these sort of avenues
that people from anywhere find to grieve and to sort
of move on. And that was I think that was
the biggest thing when I went there. Jeff Wickler ended
up becoming the greatest. We popped in a car and
(08:24):
drove I don't know, probably fifteen hours a day door
to door to various people's homes between Kentucky and Ohio.
You know, Jeff Winkler, he knew this area. He'd been
to piked in many times prior, so he had already
been there and had the lay of the land. I hadn't.
And you know, we've been tracking this case from far
(08:45):
far away. It's articles, it's newspapers, it's news clippings. You know,
you develop this relationship with the victims and the victims families,
and now they accused simply by staring at their photos
excessively and obsessively so for me getting there was fascinating,
even just getting off the plane and renting a car
(09:06):
to drive to piked In and seeing the water tower
as I had seen in so many photos, and wanting
to kind of understand better where the high school was,
and you know, where everybody lived, and I just remember
being emotional, and it's hard. You know, we make prime
shows for a living, but then sometimes when you're submerged
in the place and you know what the grief is
(09:28):
that everybody is experiencing on the victim's side and on
the accused side, it's a town ripped apart. And to
Jeff's point, there's not a single person at the gas
station or at the walmart or at the local restaurant
that isn't either a thought, you know, isn't talking about
it or thinking about it. To your point about showing
(09:49):
up and just knocking on doors. As TV producers were
used to being able to call people and book some
of these shows over the phone, piked In, I think
is a little bit of an outlier. You know, there's
no a lot of cell service there. People live in
the hills and it's hard to get someone on the phone,
and so really the only way to do it was
to show up, knock on the door, you know, with
(10:09):
a smart hill and a box of cookies or a pie,
and just hope that people would a answer the door
and be let us in, which luckily the town of
piked In was really, for the most part, very kind
and receptive to us as complete outsiders being there. Yeah,
the first place I went was Rita Newcome's home and
knocked on her door, and she was lovely invited me
(10:34):
right in. You know, she was in fact wearing an
ankle bracelet because she had recently been released, and to
be truthful, at the moment, I didn't realize how embedded
she potentially was in this investigation. The first morning I
was there was the arrangement of Jake Wagner, and there's
an interesting experience. The courtroom was packed and completely silent.
(10:58):
It was delayed by almost forty minutes. It was supposed
to be nine o'clock start, and I've never sat in
a more silent room filled with people. And it was
a very interesting experience seeing Jake walk in and hearing
his plea and sitting near members of the Rodent family.
(11:19):
Were people on both sides where people on his side
where people on the road and side, Like, what was
your experience like, Yeah, people were definitely on both sides,
and the Rodents was absolutely filled and the Wagner side
was much more sparsely filled. Do you think that speaks
to what we've been hearing and what we've been trying
(11:39):
to convey with this podcast, which is that the road
and family was so incredibly close and as we were told,
family over everything. Yeah. Absolutely, and just the devastation that
ripped through that family is a little hard to comprehend.
So people were definitely there, people who were definitely very sad.
It was very tragic, and but they were there showing
(12:02):
their support. I remember when Courtney was at that arrayment
like calling you just to see what was it like.
You know, again, we have these visions in our head
based solely on photographs of the Wagner family, Jake Wagner
being the youngest, just to kind of be able to
see him face to face air quotes, or at least
kind of look in his eyes to see, you know,
(12:23):
does that look like a person who could actually commit
something so heinous? And the truth is it's really an
unanswerable question. A lot of people understandably, a lot of
listeners have asked about where the children are now. Kylie,
who is Hannah Roden's newborn baby, is with her father,
(12:44):
Charlie Gilly. She was the infant that was just born
five days prior to Hannah Roden. I would say for
all of us too, and this probably would apply to
listeners too. The fact that there were such small infants
and young children left alive at the scene just kind
of puts a dagger in your heart. So unfortunately, Sophia Wagner,
who is the child of Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin,
(13:06):
is in the care of Child Protective Services, and that's
something I know the Rodin family is unhappy about, and
I know specifically in the Wagner side of it, Deray
is unhappy about. I think the feeling is that there
are people who are blood related to Sophia who could
give her a really good home right now. So here's
a little bit from Deray about that. So you were
(13:27):
actually hoping to like take Sophia in and give her,
you know, a safe and comfortable home while all this
is happening. Yeah, absolutely, I mean I'm a I'm a professional.
I mean I take in children with trauma that's my profession,
that's what I like to do. I have two boys
with me now who have autism. They're excellent children, they
(13:52):
are well loved, their proof in the pudding, and we
would have had a really good time, so they couldn't
even like you couldn't even see so Fia if you
wanted to, I could not. All I want her to
know is she's loved. I don't want her to think
anything's wrong. So something yeah, that we've been asked about
(14:13):
by a fair amount of listeners was how the podcast
has affected the people that we interviewed and the people
that have spoken out about it. And I think for
the most part, it's been pretty positive in terms of
who we've talked to in their experience in piked It
Living and piked In Barb for example, told us that
she felt like the podcast represented the town well and
(14:35):
the story in a fair way. Angie Montgomery, who we
talked about her cousin Curtis and Jenny's case, felt happy
that we were finally shedding a light on something that
people haven't really been talking about. That was a really
important piece of this for us, because we care deeply
about piked In first and foremost we've been there many,
many times. The town has been extremely kind to us
(14:56):
at a time that not everyone has been that kind
to them, and making sure that we weren't coming across
in any universe as being insensitive to the victims and
the victims families, understanding that there's a gag order, understanding
that anything somebody says could have impacts on upcoming trials.
(15:17):
It's important. The stakes are actually extremely high, and we're
wildly aware of that, but it's hard not to be
emotional about it, or to get emotionally attached to an answer,
or you know, want to really understand who the boogeyman is,
who's responsible for something so horrible, And as a result,
I think every time we get involved deeper into this case,
we want to know more. Is it possible that, hopefully
(15:40):
the mom isn't involved, This couldn't be if Angela Wagner
was at the center of it. Is it because she
was being forced to be so by her husband or
is that just a lie? Or was Angela wildly manipulative
and coerced her boys in the spirit of defending her
family and defending her Sophia. And if that's the case,
(16:00):
what a silly plan because now you're never going to
see your boys again. You've all been separated. If convicted,
you'll never cross paths unless one of you folds on
the other in court. And with four people, you know,
if indeed they are deemed guilty, there's the question that
we raised a few episodes ago about the informant and
who that is. There is an informant who's been written about,
(16:23):
and if it is one of the four, you know,
if they've turned on the rest of their family, how
that would bear out, because it would be hard to
manage that guilt for years and years. Let's stop here
for a quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment.
(16:44):
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underscore dot com to find your perfect match today. So
just over four years, people, in my opinion, packed mentality
would suggest that at some point the night of the murders,
(20:06):
if the Wagners did in fact do it, that there
was a heavy there was somebody who was the real leader, right,
and that the real leader reminds everybody, this is why
we have to do this. We're protecting our own or
we're protecting our family, or we're protecting Sophia, and to
some degree everybody follows along. Again, at four different times,
somebody could have changed their vote. Who knows what the
(20:27):
circumstances of were that night. Although we're desperate too now
add four years, four years separated, there's zero chance that
all four of them will stick to the exact same story,
not have the exact same amount of guilt, like somebody's
going to crack. If that's the informant, it makes a
ton of sense. And if that's the informant, who is
(20:48):
either trying to spare themselves or spare their family somehow.
That to me would make a lot of sense. The
fact that George Wagner is requesting of Bible and requesting
solitary confinement for lengthy periods of time, to me, has
always been a bit of a tell you know, Jake, Yes,
(21:08):
you're caught up. If in fact this is true, that
you need to have custody of your child and you're
heartbroken and the love of your life is dating somebody
else and just had a baby with somebody else, and
it's filled with passion. It's a passion kill. We make
crime shows for a living. Oftentimes it's love or money
or revenge. Defending your family. This checks all of those boxes.
(21:30):
But that was then. Now add four years realizing you're
not around your daughter any longer, you've committed mass murder
from which you can never go back. Somebody has to crack,
is my point. Just as a legal reminder, Angela, Billy Jake,
and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's
(21:52):
mother Rita Joe Nukam and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were
both charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was
also charge with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty,
and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt has proven.
Can we talk about one thing that has always I'm
going to speak for all of us, but is the
thing in my head that I can never get out
(22:14):
of it in terms of whether or not we believe,
which frankly matters for nothing if the Wagoners are in
fact guilty or not. It's the hacking. Why were they
hacking the Rodent family for as long as they were?
And according to the official documents that we have seen,
it has been reported about also that in fact they
(22:37):
were busting into all of their social media Why in
such a mass in such a big way too, It's
not as though it was. It doesn't appear to be
jump in if I'm incorrect. It doesn't appear that, say,
for example, Jake was hacking Hannah Rodin's Facebook because he
was wildly jealous about her new relationship, or that she
had moved on in a new relationship. That is terrible
(22:59):
to do under any circumstance. But that seems like a
young person's effort. But it doesn't seem like that was
the case. It was a fairly high level surveillance operation
happening to all of them. And why. What has been
brought up in court is that it was deeply organized.
I mean, they were Excel spreadsheets, done, hundreds and hundreds
(23:21):
of entries about child custody. They put up cameras, and
they were in all of their computers and phones. It
was really elaborate. It was elaborate, and they were the
Wagoners were often together. So was this an activity just
because they wanted to track Hannah's relationship or like, where
(23:42):
were they tracking? You know? What makes the most sense
on the surface, and again allegedly, is that they were
tracking the coming and goings and tracking the property and
understanding the dogs. It did seem as though big dogs
were common, and we know for a fact that the
road in said attack dogs. Why didn't the dogs attack?
(24:05):
That really does make no sense. Still, However, if you
knew the dogs, and you had been to the home
many times, as certainly Jake would have been many times,
and you had an understanding of kind of how that
home worked and what their habits were, it does feel
like an indicant that the Wagners were up to no good.
If they were legitimately cyberstalking an entire family just months
(24:29):
prior to that family's tragic death. Clinton from Ganado, Texas
asked us why Sophia wasn't with her mom the night
of the murders and was it under unusual circumstances that
she was picked up by Jake Wagner And yeah, it's
it's up for debate why Sophia wasn't with Hannah. Jake
(24:50):
Wagner has admitted that he did pick Sophia up a
day earlier than he originally planned, and that so she
wasn't with her mom that fateful Friday evening. Jake Wagner
said on the record, I reckon we missed it by
just a few hours, and by it he means the murders.
And so we don't know what happened between Jake Wagner
and Hannah wrote in the night of the murders, or
why he told her he was picking her up early,
(25:11):
or why he did pick her up early, but we
do know she was supposed to be with her mom
that night, and for reasons we don't know, Jake Wagner
did take her home early. And my expectation would be
if we have texts exchanges, just based on the fact
that we know that people text so frequently because the
reception between phones can be spotty in these rural places,
there has to be some sort of a message saying
(25:32):
I will pick her up early or requesting to pick
her up early. I think that is another huge smoking gun,
the fact that Sophia wasn't there that day and was
picked up by Jake off of schedule. He's changed his
story on this a couple of times, and I think
this was a key place where there wasn't inconsistency about
this topic. But regardless, it is suspicious and we disagree
(25:53):
on that. I think things happen, and what seems the
simplest explanation to me is that Hannah had just had
a baby days before, and maybe she wanted a break
with just her infant and not a toddler. But something
we don't know. Jay from Storm like Iowa, asked us
(26:15):
what happens if the Wagners get off, will they get
custody of Sophia. I can only imagine that if the
Wagoners do get off, they will attempt to get back
to their normal life, and it's possible they would want
custody of Sophia, But former prosecutor Mike Allen told me
that because they were so closely linked to the murders,
it may be difficult for Jake Wagner's to obtain custody, which,
(26:39):
if he's innocent, is tragic to think that because he
was mixed up in this, he wouldn't be able to
get to raise his daughter. Here's an excerpt of that
conversation with Mike Allen. So let's say Jake Wagner does
get off and has proven not guilty. So do you
think he doesn't he doesn't have a chance of getting
Sophia back. It probably has a chance of getting her
(26:59):
back by I think a judge would be hard pressed
to grant custody for someone who was named as a
defendant in a multiple homicide case, even if he is acquitted.
You just don't know. But I'll tell you what, that's
not going to be decided, I don't think for for
many years to come. Even if he let's say he
(27:19):
really didn't do it and he's being held, you know,
wrongly accused, that he never gets to see his daughter,
against never see her. Dabt like that even alone is
such a tragedy. If well if there's no evidence or
no strong evidence against him and he's acquitted and people
are scratching her head thinking well, why was he even indicted.
I suppose he would have a chance then, but you
(27:40):
never know, I mean, you never know what happens in
a criminal trial. The custody battle is one that will
probably outlive the criminal case. That will probably go on
for years and years and years. I mean, obviously it
was a contentious subject before the murders. Again many believe
(28:01):
that that was the primary motive, but that will continue
to go on. They'll probably be numerous court hearings for
years until that's finally settled. And that's a shame because
the children, if they're not already hurt, which of course
they are, they're going to continue to be victimized, probably
for a long time to come. Susan from nu Vienna,
(28:30):
Ohio asked us when the trials are supposed to begin,
and that's an interesting question. Obviously the Wagners did waive
their right to a speedy trial, but now because of COVID,
it seems that the trials have been delayed. Billy Wagner's attorney,
Mark Collins, said that the trials have been put on hold. Angela,
(28:51):
Wagner's attorney said something different. He said the trials were
supposed to begin this fall, which would be very soon,
if not imminent. So it's unclear about what is exactly
is happening, but we do know that right now the
pre trial hearings are happening. George Wagner just had his
last week, so things are starting to move in the
right direction. There was an attempt to be made to
(29:12):
get him released on bond. Seems very different than somebody
being held in solitary confinement with a Bible waiting for
their last days. These are death penalty trials, you know,
that's not to be underestimated. For separate capital punishment trials
are a big deal, and one surely affects the other,
and any inconsistency from one to the next has to
(29:33):
be a paramount to all I would imagine, you know,
I don't know the answer to that. That's a good question,
because they are four separate trials, so I don't know
actually if one has bearing on the other. I mean,
you know, you'd assume the evidence some of it will
be similar, but it's all going to be dependent. For example,
(29:54):
I remember reading that DNA. There is confirmed that the
prosecution has DNA evidence. What that evidence is, we don't know,
but there's been made mention of it. So you know,
the fact that there's differences in DNA is going to
change the course of those four trials completely. I was
just suggesting that those four trials, I guess the narrative
(30:17):
from each of the Wagner members family members has to
be pretty buttoned up. If there's one inconsistency between Jake's
story and his mom's story or their dad's story, that's
a big deal. Let's stop here for another quick break.
We'll be back in a moment. You will fail. So
(30:43):
what everybody does, but your jim, your watch, your yoga pants,
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(31:29):
we're not going to let that be the end. Now,
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call from Belfast, Ohio, who asked us if something happens
(34:25):
and the Wagners are found not guilty, how do we
think the town would react to them being back in
piked In and would they be able to stay in
the town. It's a it's a good question, and based
on what we've heard and the reaction to the Wagners,
I personally think it would be really hard for them
to stay and piked In. You know, we talked to
a Wagner family member who wished to remain anonymous, who
(34:47):
gave us some pretty horrible details about what happened to
them before the arrests. That being said, you know, Frederica
does have a lot of land in piked In, and
they have a lot of ties to the community, so
they might that might be where they would call home.
Fred Rika Wagner is also an interesting piece to this puzzle.
By all accounts, she's the great matriarch of the Wagner Empire.
(35:07):
And you know, she looks like such a beautiful grandmother,
like you would conjure up in your head or if
you were casting a movie, that you wouldn't believe somebody
could look so perfect. She was this little black lace,
not a veil over her face. It's sort of like
an overlay, but it's really a look that makes you think, oh,
(35:29):
she could never be involved. And she's so beloved by
the town and has done so many charitable things. That's
a real cross section of opinion by so many. Some
people say that she is a pure saint, the kindest,
the nicest, the most genuine, the most charitable human that
has ever walked the earth, and others say she's downright wicked.
(35:51):
I mean, listen, there's two sides to every coin, and
I think both of what you said bears out. It
really depends on what your perspective is. If you are
one of the people who Frederica Wagner has helped along
the way and provided food and assistance. You are going
to see the godly woman that so many people speak of.
(36:12):
And if you are one of the people who were
renting land that you were supposed to be buying at
the end of it, and then you allegedly had that
land pulled out from under you and revert back to Frederica,
then you're going to feel very very differently. Both things
are true, both things are true. That's I guess what's
(36:33):
so complicated about this. So you know, discovery continues, and
these trials I think would be set sooner than later.
I would imagine the hope the defense of the Wagners
was trying to move the trial outside of Piketon because
(36:55):
getting twelve unbiased jurors might be challenging, and they were
ultimately to that privilege. That's kind of a strike against
the defense. What we have heard from the prosecution is
that they are accumulating a lot of evidence at this point,
and much of it we can't get our hands on,
So they've been pretty tight lipped outside of the silencers,
(37:15):
the vests, the shoes that were bought at Walmart, DNA
evidence that's you said to be found at one, if
not multiple crime scenes, but outside of that, they've kept
a lot of things to themselves, understandably so, and that
I think we're going to hear about sooner than later.
Because who goes first, I think is very interesting. Who
(37:37):
do you guys think will be up first? You know,
I'll go just by the arraignment, and I believe I'm
correct that Jake Wagner was the first of the Wagners
to be arraigned, So I would bet Jake. And a
lot of the thought is that, you know, since custody
allegedly is at the center, so I say, Jake Wagner.
(38:01):
I was going to say that the eldest son, George Wagner,
would be up first, but wow, what a shocker if
Jake Wagner is up first, because then, to me, there's
no question that his involvement with the Rodents is at
the center of these trials at the bare minimum, whether
he did or did not do it, That one piece
would follow all of the trials, I would imagine. Reach
(38:31):
out to us on our social media outlets with questions.
We're on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter at pikedon Massacre. We
look forward to answering your questions and upcoming episodes Pikedon
Massacre is executive produced by Stephanie Laidecker and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional
(38:51):
producing by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The Pikedon Massacre
is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more
podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. So you
(39:12):
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