June 16, 2021 • 47 mins
At the time of the Rhoden murders, Chris Graves was working as a reporter for the Cincinnati Enquirer. As she began covering the story she had no idea what would transpire in Pike County. In episode six, we sit down exclusively with her as she recounts her experience being the only journalist to interview not only the surviving family members, but also the accused. Her perspective gives us a one of a kind insight into the massacre.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters
because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
He just walked around shot all the black people. The
cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
out how to go on and how to compete. I
(00:21):
wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
(00:44):
to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
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this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
I would call him and I would say, I know
you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl
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get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story
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Remus is the biggest man in the business, but George
Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading
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(02:11):
Welcome to the piked in Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio
and Katie Studios. A lot of what I do is
I kind of tiptoe into people's tragedy, but I get
to pull my toes out as opposed to the families
who their entire lives are you know, shattered in some cases,
destroyed and decimated, which certainly happened in this case. But
as the story unfolded, and as we started piecing together
(02:35):
things and talking with family members and law enforcement and
people in the community, it just became clear to me,
I guess that this was a special place. This is
the piked In massacre. Returned to Pike County Season two,
episode six, The Victims Need a Voice. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and
(02:57):
Jeff Shane. Day that eight members of the Roden family
were found murdered, journalist Chris Graves began covering the story
for the Cincinnati Enquirer. Her insight is crucial, as she
spoke with members of the victims families, the Rodens, Manlies,
and Gillies in the immediate aftermath of the killings. She's
the only journalist to conduct an exclusive interview with the
(03:19):
Wagner family. Just weeks after the Rodents were found dead,
Graves sat down with Jake Wagner, who has now pled guilty,
and his accused mother Angela. We finally got Chris Graves
to sit down for an interview after many tries. She's
speaking out now because she feels it's imperative that the
victims have a voice in this story. This is highly
significant due to the current gag orders. Here she is
(03:41):
speaking to our producer, also named Chris Graves. When did
you first hear about the Roden murders? So? I first
heard about the crime the friday in which it broke.
I saw a tweet, as I recall, and the first
news of this was that there were people dead in
Pike County and that the police were beginning to investigate.
(04:05):
So my news instincts kicked in, and then I texted
our editors and said, this is our story, this is
what I was thinking. Multiple people found Daddy in more
than one location along Union Hill Road and piked in
this morning. My two PM investigators say they found eight
people dead, seven adult victims and a sixteen year old boy,
(04:25):
all from the road and family. There is a shooter
or shooters out there somewhere. No one is in custody
right now. Whoever they are, they were trying to possibly
wipe out this entire family. I was trying to get
somebody who's on the ground, who has eyes, who can
help you as a reporter, because when stories like this
begin to on full, there's just so much you don't know.
(04:47):
You don't know anything. There was a church right across
from Union Hill Road, and I managed to get Reverend
Phil Fulton on the phone, and I, you know, I
just started interviewing him. And in the course of that conversation,
I could hear the Reverend Fulton talking with what appeared
to be a family member who turned out to be
(05:07):
Leonard Manley. Leonard is the father of Dana Manley Rowden,
also the grandfather of Hannah Roden, Chris Junior and all
of the kids. So I asked him if he could
put Leonard Manley on the phone, and he did, and
that was the first time I talked with a family member.
(05:28):
He was able to tell me in that conversation who
they believed had been killed. And it was his daughter
who found the first four victims, who made the first
nine one one call, which we've all heard. I was
trying to on the phone pieced together who all these people,
(05:49):
what their relationships were, Who were they, what were the relationships.
It was certainly horrific and tragic. Pykedon is a small
community where everyone knows everyone in his youth. Imagine the
town is just stunned, cunshock thinking about the whole family. Really,
it is hard to believe. It's such a useless strategy.
I just don't understand why it happened here. A lot
(06:11):
of the things pinched me. Wake me up. The times
I'll wake up, but they'll just be like a dream.
On April twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, Chris Graves made her
way to Pike County. That church became a place for
both law enforcement and the family to gather, and I
(06:32):
asked the Reverend Fulton if I could attend his church
service on Sunday, which is what I did. I went
down into church and listened to his sermon. What was
that sermon like on that Sunday. It's a small church,
it's not a big church. Pastor Fulton sort of lives
in the community, has lived in the community, sort of
(06:53):
grew up there. He preached there for forty three years.
He talked a lot about this is what a church does.
It's you know, it's a shelter, a refuge, a safe
haven in a dark storm. He talked about the need
for the community to come together and support a family.
(07:14):
There was a lot of singing. He turned to the
scriptures or inspiration and solace. He talked a lot about
evil and what evil would descend to do this small
country church just up the way north of U thirty
two helping some of the family and friends as they
come to grips with an unspeakable event. Can you describe
the evil community is? I don't think you can really describe.
(07:36):
It is just unbelievable these things it's happening and going on,
and such tragedies like this we should not have them.
You were faced with this giant puzzle, a very tragic
puzzle that you were trying to put together so that
others could learn what it possibly happened. Right, You're trying
to find the truth. You're trying to figure out who
(07:56):
is in a relationship with whom and how were these
people connected and what could have happened, where did they work,
what's all the you know, prior criminal history of everybody.
And you're sort of left as a reporter to, I
mean really to kind of do knock on doors, talk
to people, try to figure out, you know, talk to
(08:16):
the people who are closest to the information and begin
to sort of piece stuff together. And what was the
result of that. I think this part of America gets
a little bit of a rap that it's a very
and it is. It is insular, but it's also kind.
People were kind when they maybe shouldn't have been, you know,
(08:37):
at least to me. And I just I really just
wanted to understand the victims. I wanted to understand family.
So I spend hours, sometimes oftentimes interviewing not just family members,
but people who lived, you know, down the road and
across the way, and you know, the librarian, and I
(08:57):
mean all kinds of you know, really the sheriff and
the attorney general and all of that. People call it
and we did too the road in case of the
rod and certainly their family lost the most people, which
sounds horrific even to say. I mean, I just like,
there's no good words for any of this, But I
mean there are three family units, the Manlies, the Gillies,
(09:22):
and the Rodents. Hannah Gilly is a little often turned
into a rodent or a footnote. Right, we don't get
to explore her world nearly enough. And that's the other
thing I think about Hannah Hazel. That's what they call
Hannah Hazel Gilly to make the distinction between Hannah may Roden.
You know, she became I think, by default a rodent.
(09:45):
So when we first started writing, and I mean I
did think about that, like how we're sort of saying, well,
it's rodents, and I thought, well, she's essentially a rodent.
I mean, she was engaged to Frankie, they were going
to get married, they'd had a child together. She lived
for her son, you know, was really into nursing and
the health of him, and was trying to eat healthy.
(10:07):
She graduated from high school, was totally in love with Frankie.
They were you know, it's everything building a life. She
saw herself as a road And having said that, she's
still a Gilly. And so this amount of devastation to
essentially three families, all of whom live in close proximity
(10:29):
to each other, and their families or have been in
various stages differently intertwined, and the ripple effect of that,
and the children, which is what hit me the hardest.
I'm a mother of two, and the idea that there
were three very small children at the crime scenes and
(10:49):
they were found alive and physically unharmed. Resonated with me
Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine giving an update. Three children
did survive, a four day old, six month old, and
a three year old. I think what makes this particularly
grizzly is the fact that you have these children involved
who obviously were there when executions took place. You know,
(11:11):
it's heartbreaking. I mean, you know the one mom apparently
was killed with the four day old right there. I mean,
it's just, you know, which is hard. It's just hard
to believe. Then I went and did my first column,
and I just went driving Pike County. It's pretty rolling hills,
(11:31):
It's absolutely beautiful, and it was starting to warm up.
Things were beginning to bloom. There were fields of yellow
and purple, and I mean, it's just it was just
absolutely beautiful, all of the things that someone who looks
for ways in which to tell stories you look for, right,
I mean, as this county was going through it's spring rebirth,
(11:54):
it struck me that this tragedy was rippling across sort
of these beautiful fields of yellow flowers. And I just
could not get those three children out of my head.
And I just started looking out and I started to cry, truthfully,
and sort of became, I don't know, overwhelmed, but I
(12:19):
I came around or down a hill and I saw
a house just sort of out on its own, with,
you know, a couple of rocking chairs on the porch,
and you know, they were just rocking, but nobody was
in them. And I sort of started thinking about this
lullaby It's called the Appalachian Lullaby, and it just it
just started going through my head and I was remembering
(12:41):
pieces of it, and I just couldn't help but think
about those children and who would rock them to sleep,
and who would hold them tight, and who, you know,
who would sing them lullabys to sleep. And I thought,
that's what this is about. This was more than just
(13:03):
a homicide or a multiple homicide or a mask killing.
It's about who takes care of those babies and what
in the world happened here, And those children's lives will
never be the same. These are families, so many lives affected,
and the ripple effects of that which will go on
for decades and generations. They now are and will forever
(13:27):
be bound by this horrible tragedy, but both their strength
and their resilience and their resolve and their pain. I mean,
it's incredible to me. I don't, I don't. I'm struggling
with words because I don't know the right words. Truthfully,
it's it's heartbreaking and and just awe inspiring. Somehow they're survivors.
(13:57):
So that's what I wrote about. Nobody can imagine what
this family has been through. Only the other families, the Manlies,
the Gillies, those families are suffering as much as we are.
They only know what we are all going through every
(14:22):
day we live with this. It never goes away. I
can tell you that even though it's been extremely hard,
that I know our family will never stop. We will
never give up. We will never give up trying to
(14:45):
find and bring the people whoever did this to justice.
We will not give up. Can you describe your first
impressions of the Wagner's My first interview with Jake Wagner
and his mom, Angela was on May thirty first, twenty sixteen.
(15:09):
You know, so, what is that six weeks after the homicides.
I had talked with other people who said, oh, they
probably aren't going to talk to you, they're pretty to themselves.
But I knew that Jake and Hannah had been in
a relationship and had had shared a child. Said well, well,
you know, we'll go try. I showed up, and he
and his mom agreed to the interview. He and Angela
(15:31):
outside their home, which was searched two years later. We
sat outside on a patio area and talked for I
don't know, two and a half hours. Maybe there were
children's toys everywhere, like those little pretend little cars that
they drive that are motorized, or little tikes, you know,
(15:52):
the slides and all of that. It seemed like, Wow,
here's a family who really digs their kids and or
grandkids in Angela's case, And I was trying to establish
who were the Wagoners? Who are the Wagoners? When did
you start dating Hannah? What was that relationship? You know?
(16:12):
He didn't dodge questions, looked me in the eye when
I interviewed him, really nice. It seemed to me as
if when we had talked that very first time, that
he was truly in love with Hannah, whatever that means.
But he thought that they were going to be that
it would all that there would be a reconciliation and
(16:33):
they would all come together. And he had this idea
in his head about what that would look like. And
I told him this, like, Wow, for a young man,
you seem to have everything lined up, you know. I mean,
he was saying, well, we were going to do this.
He and Hannah, we were going to do this. We're
going to do this. My plan was this. And I
was like, wow, that's a lot of you are really linear,
(16:55):
I think, is what I said. Everything's has to line up.
And I was sort of taken by that. I didn't
quite know what to think of it. But again, I
try to keep my mind as open as possible when
I'm interviewing people. If in fact what Jake Wagner said
is true. And he committed five of eight murders and
then went to sleep that night, took a shower, and
(17:15):
then had the nerve to sit down with you straight
faced and said, I'm good, you know, like a regular person.
That's so unfathomable to me. Humans are multifaceted. I've said
for years that being a reporter didn't get easier. It
gets harder the longer you do it, because the world,
you begin to understand the world is multidimensional and things
(17:39):
are very it just there's not sometimes these clear things,
they're not I have a lot of questions. As someone
who's talked to Jake before, I have tons of questions,
as you can only imagine. But yeah, I mean it
seemed to me as if, as I just painted, you know,
there were toys everywhere. He talked about his daughter all
(18:02):
the time. He talked about you know, for instance, he
could name movies they all watched together, the books he
would read her before they went to bed, what he
told her about where her mom was. You know that
mom's with Jesus now, he said, You know, I don't
(18:22):
know how to explain to her that mom isn't coming back.
Did you ask where his daughter was that night? I mean,
it was my understanding that this was his week to
have the child, and he had gotten the child a
day earlier than he would normally have done that. Fast
(18:44):
forward five years. If Jake Wagner is to be believed
by what he said in court, what we still don't
know is where all four of the Wagners were the
night and early morning of the twenty some twenty second.
So there's an assumption, I think that all four of
(19:05):
the Wagners participated physically in the crimes. I don't know
if that's true. I simply don't know that. What Jake
said and as you all know, what Jake said in
court is that he was quote unquote personally responsible for
five of the eight victims. So I don't know where
(19:25):
his brother was, his dad or his mom. What was
Angela Wagner? Like, Jake talked a lot more than Angela,
but Angela would add on things as Jake talked. But
any in person interview I did with Jake, Angela was
(19:46):
there and didn't leave. I mean she was a mom.
I mean that's how I saw it. You know, she's
a mom. Here her Again, this is six weeks after
these homicides, and when I you know, and again I'm
not trying to be sympathetic to the Aagner's right now,
I'm not. But again, dialing back five years, I show
up on your doorstep, and if I'm the mom and
(20:09):
my son has just lost the mother of his child,
I guess I thought she was just being a protective mom,
I'm here for my kid kind of thing. Again, this
all looks different today than it did five years ago.
At the time, did you feel like they might have
been guilty or did you believe what they were saying
or do you not put yourself in that position to
(20:30):
even have an opinion? I had somebody asked me, I
don't even know a couple of years ago, what's it
like to look into the eyes of pure evil? I said,
I don't know. Sometimes I think that people think it
would you would just automatically. I don't know that. Some
like I have some kind of radar that go off,
we're you know, home. But they weren't suspects, so I
(20:53):
wasn't approaching them with that in the back of my mind, like, oh,
now you're suspects in this. It was more information gathering.
They didn't seem nervous. I don't think they ever asked me,
because sometimes in interviews people will say, oh, don't use that,
or don't use that, or that makes me really nervous,
or I mean, I don't recall any of that. You know.
(21:15):
It wasn't any like, well you can't use that, or
what are you doing or any of that. But I don't.
You know, again, you don't know what you don't know.
And to be completely honest, I did ask them Angela
and Jake Wants via email, just straight out did you
kill them? And they never responded, we're going to take
(21:39):
a quick break. Here, we'll be back in a moment. Oh.
I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends.
Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few
of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
(22:04):
he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't.
He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she
went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes
the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob,
us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him
(22:25):
to pay for his crime. He needed to be put
to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw
him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call
him and I would say, I know you killed my sister.
I will always hound you and haunt you. You can
listen to The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you get your podcasts. In our twenty two
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Our podcast. My Vagina said, what is a podcast? Where
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said What podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or
wherever you get your podcasts. What. This is the unbelievable
but true story of George Ramus. You might know him
as a character from Boardwalk Empire or as the inspiration
(23:56):
for Jay Gatsby. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer
who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition.
Remus is in the whiskey business, and Remus is the
biggest man in the business while living the life of
luxury with his clamorous and ambitious wife Imogene Daddy. I
am so glad you are here. But George Remus's wild
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She had Remus just exactly where she wanted him revenge.
Feel this muscle. I got this for Remus. I could
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the defendant, Join me Abbot kaylor As we traced George
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Remus's transformation from bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to
Remus the Mad Bootleg King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Afghanistan twenty twelve,
One Quiet Night, Staffs Are Robert Bales left his I'm
at outpost alone. He walked into two villages and started shooting,
(25:05):
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(25:59):
In seventeen, the investigation ramped up. More than two dozen
investigators are focused on solving one of Ohio's largest mass
murders in history. As of today, we've received eight hundred
and eighty three tips, we have conducted four hundred and
sixty five interviews, thirty eight search warrants have been issued,
and sixty cyber extractions have been done. They say they
(26:20):
made significant progress in the investigation, believe more than one
person committed the crimes, but to day, the killers are
still on the loose. When did you hear that the
Wagners were suspects? All of a sudden, I got a
tipped from somebody. They said, hey, have you heard about
the search at the Wagners. And it became really clear
(26:43):
to me that they must have had something, because you'd
have to have probable cause. So whatever it was that
got them probable cause to do the search, I thought, well,
they found something, because it isn't just going to be
a fishing expedition, right. So I got in my car
and I drove there, and the helicopters up and there
were law enforcement, like on four wheelers. I was sitting
(27:05):
there at the search and someone said, well, you know
the house is sold. I said, no, I don't know that.
And then I sat in my car and looked up
the property records and saw that it was on the market.
And then you start connecting the dots in your own head, right,
And I was like, whoa wait a minute, wait a minute.
(27:27):
And then I found out they were in Alaska. The
Wagners were in Alaska. And then I went to the
editor and said, I need to go to Alaska. I
need to talk to them. We have major developments tonight
in a bazaar and tragic murder case with ties between
Ohio and Alaska. Investigators want any information the public has
about the Wagner family. That someone has information, it really
(27:50):
is in their best interest to come forth voluntarily thank
you of us that information. They're not messing around. We're
going to laugh for people if they're building average from
much so it's you, Marri interst to come forward. They
went somewhere where you had to really want to find
them to find them, right, They did seem like they
were trying to get lost in a way. They lived
(28:13):
in a rural part that's a Kenai peninsula, and Alaska
is expansive, but I mean everything is so far from
everything else. I talked with people and you know, a
little like a little cafe. People knew that they were there,
but it wasn't any big deal. They were like, oh,
you mean the people who are wanted in Ohio for
killing all those people. Attorney General Dwine you know, said
(28:36):
they were, you know, while not calling them suspects, said,
you know, they were laser focus of the investigation. And
I'm like, well, actually they're not really wanted, you know.
I mean that was the thing that was really interesting.
By the time the news got there, most people thought
they were wanted, but that didn't seem to bother people.
(28:56):
I remember quoting a guy saying, well, this is where
people come to get lost. You know, it's no surprise.
I remember being struck when we drove there that, well,
of course they live here. It looks just like Pike County.
You know, it's wooded, it's beautiful. When I knocked on
the door, she came to the door and I said, Angela,
(29:17):
I'm here, let's talk. And she was sort of startled,
I think, to see me. And then Jake came to
the door, and the little girl came and Jake Wagner says, oh,
my gosh, Chris, it's so great to see you. It's
so great to see somebody. I mean, there was no trepidation.
But Billie did yell. I never saw him, but he
yelled from the living room, Hey, Angela, what are you doing?
(29:39):
You know, get back in here. And she's like, oh,
don't mind him. You know, his barks hours in his bite.
I mean, they were like, well, I don't know about this.
We've got a lawyer back in Ohio. I don't think
we should say anything until we talked to him. I
was like, well, i'd really like to do a sit
down interview. I'd really like to record it. Then it
became a back and forth about well, who's your lawyer,
(30:01):
how do I talk to him? Where do I get him?
What we do I need to talk to him? And
then I had a long conversation with him on the phone,
but he was in Ohio, So I go all the
way to Alaska to talk to somebody in Ohio. And
he was the one who made it sound like Dwine
was harassing them. This is all harassment. They've done nothing
(30:23):
but be cooperative. They've cooperated one hundred and ten percent.
They've given over their laptops, their phones, they've provided DNA,
they've agreed to any number of interviews with a BCI,
which is the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation. They've told
(30:45):
authorities that they were going to Alaska. The state is
making them look like suspects when they haven't called them suspects.
And then he said that it probably wouldn't be a
good idea to give the interview like they basically agreed
to it, and then said nope, never mind, we've changed
our mind, which is really unfortunate. It was the last
(31:06):
time Chris Graves would ever speak with the Wagner family. However,
she recently returned to Pike County for the first time
in years after hearing some shocking news. Exactly five years
after the road and murders in Pike County, one of
the four defendants, Jake Wagner, is pleading guilty to all
counts In exchange, he avoids the death penalty and will
serve multiple life sentences with no chance at parole. His father, mother,
(31:30):
and brother are similarly charged, and they've pleaded not guilty.
Prosecutors say that Jake will testify against them. Hearing the
prosecutor sort of described that he, you know who's going
to change his plea and outlining the terms of the
plea arrangement, and then when she shared some details of
the crime, it just was like, oh my gosh, this
(31:52):
is really happening right now. I mean, I'm a journalist,
so I just sort of think about, what are the facts,
what's happening, what are they saying. I don't even know
if I really believe he personally killed five people? I thought,
is he trying to get his mom off? Is he
trying to pay the picture that his mom wasn't there
(32:15):
or his dad somebody wasn't there, So he's gonna like
hop the majority of them all four were involved, But
what does that mean? Does that mean two were involved
in the planning? Other people did something? You know, somebody
went in and pulled all the trail cameras, but weren't
involved in the actual shooting. I don't. Again, we don't really,
(32:38):
and I know I'm saying this all the time, but
we really don't know. A ton of these details. A
lot of it, even with his guilty plea, is speculation.
So I don't know. I'm like, well, is he trying
to spare as he trying to lie about? Who is there?
(32:59):
I mean, he's lie before, so why would he tell
the complete truth? Now let's stop here for another quick break.
We'll be back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher,
and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. Back in
(33:22):
the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us
dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke
several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish.
He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't.
He shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could
(33:46):
lie about anything, but only takes the one time when
somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for bob, Us girlfriends know
how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for
his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll
be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
(34:06):
always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts. In our twenty two years of friendship, Andy,
this has to be the most bizarre thing we've ever done.
I know, I love it. Our podcast My Vagina said,
what is a podcast where we ask our everyday Vagina
(34:27):
listeners to pull up a seat at the best Friend's
table as we share our most personal and humiliating stories
and ask questions about women's bodies. We are going to
discuss all body things, like what exactly are we supposed
to do with our pubs? Oh my gosh, if you
could have a heart shaped pube that were bedazzled in
(34:47):
pink rubies or perrymenopause, I feel right now justified. I'm
going to start my own personal movement. I'm going to
start blaming anything that goes wrong in my life on perrymenopause,
us leg hair too long, Harry don't have the will
to clean, Harry Minipade exactly, are whacked periods, boob issues,
(35:09):
and so much more. Listen to my Vagina said. What
podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you
get your podcasts. What. This is the unbelievable but true
story of George Remus. You might know him as a
character from Boardwalk Empire or as the inspiration for Jay Gatsby.
He was an eccentric and genius lawyer who figured out
(35:31):
how to game the system during Prohibition. Remus is in
the whiskey business, and Remus is the biggest man in
the business, while living the life of luxury with his
clamorous and ambitious wife Imogene. Daddy, I am so glad
you are here. But George Remus's wild existence took a
dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal. She had Remus
(35:52):
just exactly where she wanted him revenge. Feel this muscle.
I got this for Remus. I could crush him like
an egg. And one of the most sensational murder trials
in American history, we the jury find the defendant, Join
me Abbot Kaylor as we traced George Remus's transformation from
bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to Remus The Mad
(36:16):
Bootleg King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Afghanistan twenty twelve, One
Quiet Night, Staffs Aren't Robert Bales left his combat outpost alone.
He walked into two villages and started shooting, killing sixteen civilians,
(36:38):
many of them children. Maybe I made a mistake, maybe
I am wrong, but you have to understand the way
it went down. We've conducted a series of interviews with
one of America's most notorious war criminals. They paint a
complex portrait of a man changed by the global War
on Terror. The idea of hurting a kid killing a
kid Come on. The War Within the Robert Bayle Story
(37:00):
is an investigating podcast revealing explosive information on one of
the most controversial events in American military history. Bale's actions
are merely a symptom of a broken army. Listen to
the War Within the Robert Bale Story on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Like everybody.
(37:30):
I want to know the answers. I want to know
the details. I want to know, like how you come
up with this? How do you do you? Are you
all just sitting around the kitchen table like plotting this?
And at some point, why is it that out of
four people, somebody doesn't say, uh no, no, it's one
thing to talk about it. But now we're doing it,
(37:53):
and we're building silencers and we're plotting things as I mean,
as it's been described. Some mental way, you're imagining you're
doing something good for the benefit of your kin, your grandchild,
But why would you put your own kids in the
heart of murder? And again the idea that of four people,
(38:15):
of four people who were supposedly religious people, not one
of you said thou shalt not kill. Not one of you, really,
not one of you had a moment where you said
this is wrong. This is fundamentally catastrophically wrong. I honestly
(38:44):
don't I cannot understand that, Like, was that a surprise
to you that it was that it was them? No.
The thing that startled me, or continues to I guess
that I've hard time wrapping my brain around, is that
you would annihilate eight people or an entire family over
(39:07):
the custody of your of the youngest member of that
mine could joined family. But I can't think it's got
to be about more than that. My gosh, I mean,
who does this or custody? You know, who destroys a family,
decimates a family and in essence then destroying that child's
(39:34):
life to protect that. It just doesn't it doesn't reconcile
with me. I remember interviewing Tony Rowden. He's the brother
of the victims and uncle and all of that. I
remember Tony just saying Chris, and I can't, I mean, please,
don't let that be true. I hope that isn't true,
because that little girl does not deserve this, you know,
(39:55):
for her sake. I just I hope this isn't true.
An he meant it, I mean, came from a very
deep and meaningful place. But I guess we're all always
looking for logical explanations to a logical acts. What has
been your experience being back in Pike County now five
(40:16):
years later? The question I've asked people here is do
people still think about this case? Do people still talk
about this? And the response that I've got is yes,
and I guess. I talked to a couple of people
the other day in a public setting, and they talked
in the terms of how tragic it is and how
(40:40):
it's inconceivable. But yeah, I think it's a ballacy, and
not just in this case but in all cases to
think that there's like a closure thing. I don't think
that exists. I drove past the crime scenes and they,
you know, interestingly, a couple buildings that remain there a
(41:03):
little bit more weathered I noticed. But it feels like
time sort of a standing still there, you know, waiting
for an end to this. So I don't think this
brings anybody closure. I think that's some Hollywood nice version
of well, now you get to move on with your life.
(41:24):
I think that's frankly bs. I think the amount of
loss and the ripple effects of that loss will be
felt for generations. But truthfully has become the most important
and meaningful story of my career. At the end of
(41:48):
the day, I was doing my work, and I try
to do that with compassion and empathy and understanding, as
well as trying to find facts and being hard when
I need to. But it's but then I get to leave,
you know, I get to leave, and certainly they stay
with me, and they will always stay with me. But
(42:11):
I don't, you know, I don't wake up every morning
without a mother, without a son, without my grandchildren, without
you know, I don't wake up having to figure out
how to tell those children what happened to their mothers
and fathers and cousins and uncles and that or I mean,
(42:38):
my goodness, you know, the conversations that are going to
have to be had with Jake and Hannah's daughter. I mean,
I don't have to do that. And that that's what
I want people to think about when they think about
this crime. I think sometimes we become fascinated with the
inner workings of how would one family do this to
(42:59):
the their family. These are people's lives, and I cannot
say that enough. And that's what should not be forgotten
in all of this is that through all of the
horrificness of the crime these there are so many people
left behind in this wake. The family was decimated. So
(43:25):
I guess that's what that I hope people take away
from this, as opposed to it's a salacious story. On
June twenty one, twenty twenty one, accused brother George Wagner
will head back to court for a hearing, one that
could change the landscape of the case moving forward. But
(43:47):
as we wait, we turn our attention to another story
that has had a lasting effect on a different community,
just miles away from Pike County. It centers around a
notorious lawyer named Michael Moran. He was arrested in twenty
twenty eight in charges related to running a prostitution ring.
He's pleaded not guilty to all of them and is
currently awaiting trial. He's accused of trafficking women all over
(44:09):
the country, from New York and New Jersey to Florida.
A lot of these women are part of marginalized society
right Nobody was listening to their stories before or seeing
them as even human. They were seeing them as criminals,
people who would rob them, people who were going to
break into their house, but nobody was really hearing from them.
(44:31):
I wanted to continue to investigate these stories, but I
didn't know at that time how big this was. More
on that next time. For more information on the case
and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
(44:56):
The piked In massacre returned to Pike County is Executive
produced by Steph Knee, Lie Decker and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional
producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. We'd
like to thank the maud Hammond Flaying Faculty Research Fellowship Grant,
which supports faculty research at the University of Nebraska Lincoln,
(45:17):
where Chris Graves teaches journalism. The Piked and Massacre Returned
to Pike County is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Carol
Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's
(45:40):
Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time
to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who
were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them was
the spot Barrenbout. On paper, he was perfect, but in reality,
this guy's a wacko out and to the point she
(46:01):
went unconscious. I would call him and I would say,
I know you killed my sister. You can listen to
the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or
wherever you get your podcasts. These days, more often than not,
the success of a company is attributed to its founder.
But that's only part of this story. My name is
Noah Callahan Bever and I'm brought to present Idea Generations
(46:22):
All Angles, a Willpacker Media podcast. We'll be talking to
all the key players from all your favorite brains like
Loud Records, Ghetto, Gastro and Earn your Leisure. So join
me each week as we dissect the most dynamic companies
and culture, because the only way to truly understand success
is to look at it from all angles. Listen new
Idea Generations All Angles on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast
or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable
(46:45):
but true story of George Remus. He was an eccentric
and genius lawyer who figured out how to game the
system during Prohibition. Remus is the biggest man in the business,
but George Ramis's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn,
leading to trial, revenge, and one of the most sensational
murder trials in American history. Listen to Remus, the mad
(47:08):
bootleg King, every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, are you
ready for a brand new podcast that you had no
idea existed. I'm Rory Scoville and I'm Daniel van Kirk
and it's the pen Pals Podcast. Maybe you've had a
pen pal before, where you have two of them right now.
You send us your letters about anything going on in
(47:29):
your life. Gotta mean Grandma, need a new haircut, whatever
it is, send it to us and we have guests
like Will Ferrell, Andy Samberg, Rose Burne, Brett Goldstein, and
Mandy Moore. Listen to the pen Pals Podcast on Will
Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts,
The cheerleaders at a gym in Buffalo have been recording
themselves to make a new documentary where the news reporters
because one year ago a mass shooting changed their lives.
He just walked around shot all the black people. The
cheer squad, most of whom are black, had to figure
out how to go on and how to compete. I
(00:21):
wanted to win for them more than anything this season.
Listen to the embedded podcast from NPR within the iHeartRadio app,
or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Carol Fisher and
I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's Las Vegas,
it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time to find
a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who were felt
(00:44):
to be eligible bachelors. One of them was of the
Baron bat On paper he was perfect, but in reality,
this guy's a wacko. He shouted to the point went unconscious.
I would call him and I would say, I know
you killed my sister. You can listen to The girl
Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
(01:07):
get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable but true story
of George Remus. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer
who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition.
Remus is the biggest man in the business, but George
Remus's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading
to betrayal, revenge, and one of the most sensational murder
(01:30):
trials in American history. Listen to Remus the Mad Bootleg
King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or
wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Delia Wild and
I want to invite you to listen to my newest
podcasts to make up Appy existed to the two style.
(01:51):
It's called The Oh My God Particle Show or OMGPS
for short. How you like me? Always wondering about the universe,
Like what the universe has made all of how it's
going to evolve? So I went to get some answers.
Listen to The Oh My God Particle Show on the
iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(02:11):
Welcome to the piked in Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio
and Katie Studios. A lot of what I do is
I kind of tiptoe into people's tragedy, but I get
to pull my toes out as opposed to the families
who their entire lives are you know, shattered in some cases,
destroyed and decimated, which certainly happened in this case. But
as the story unfolded, and as we started piecing together
(02:35):
things and talking with family members and law enforcement and
people in the community, it just became clear to me,
I guess that this was a special place. This is
the piked In massacre. Returned to Pike County Season two,
episode six, The Victims Need a Voice. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and
(02:57):
Jeff Shane. Day that eight members of the Roden family
were found murdered, journalist Chris Graves began covering the story
for the Cincinnati Enquirer. Her insight is crucial, as she
spoke with members of the victims families, the Rodens, Manlies,
and Gillies in the immediate aftermath of the killings. She's
the only journalist to conduct an exclusive interview with the
(03:19):
Wagner family. Just weeks after the Rodents were found dead,
Graves sat down with Jake Wagner, who has now pled guilty,
and his accused mother Angela. We finally got Chris Graves
to sit down for an interview after many tries. She's
speaking out now because she feels it's imperative that the
victims have a voice in this story. This is highly
significant due to the current gag orders. Here she is
(03:41):
speaking to our producer, also named Chris Graves. When did
you first hear about the Roden murders? So? I first
heard about the crime the friday in which it broke.
I saw a tweet, as I recall, and the first
news of this was that there were people dead in
Pike County and that the police were beginning to investigate.
(04:05):
So my news instincts kicked in, and then I texted
our editors and said, this is our story, this is
what I was thinking. Multiple people found Daddy in more
than one location along Union Hill Road and piked in
this morning. My two PM investigators say they found eight
people dead, seven adult victims and a sixteen year old boy,
(04:25):
all from the road and family. There is a shooter
or shooters out there somewhere. No one is in custody
right now. Whoever they are, they were trying to possibly
wipe out this entire family. I was trying to get
somebody who's on the ground, who has eyes, who can
help you as a reporter, because when stories like this
begin to on full, there's just so much you don't know.
(04:47):
You don't know anything. There was a church right across
from Union Hill Road, and I managed to get Reverend
Phil Fulton on the phone, and I, you know, I
just started interviewing him. And in the course of that conversation,
I could hear the Reverend Fulton talking with what appeared
to be a family member who turned out to be
(05:07):
Leonard Manley. Leonard is the father of Dana Manley Rowden,
also the grandfather of Hannah Roden, Chris Junior and all
of the kids. So I asked him if he could
put Leonard Manley on the phone, and he did, and
that was the first time I talked with a family member.
(05:28):
He was able to tell me in that conversation who
they believed had been killed. And it was his daughter
who found the first four victims, who made the first
nine one one call, which we've all heard. I was
trying to on the phone pieced together who all these people,
(05:49):
what their relationships were, Who were they, what were the relationships.
It was certainly horrific and tragic. Pykedon is a small
community where everyone knows everyone in his youth. Imagine the
town is just stunned, cunshock thinking about the whole family. Really,
it is hard to believe. It's such a useless strategy.
I just don't understand why it happened here. A lot
(06:11):
of the things pinched me. Wake me up. The times
I'll wake up, but they'll just be like a dream.
On April twenty fourth, twenty sixteen, Chris Graves made her
way to Pike County. That church became a place for
both law enforcement and the family to gather, and I
(06:32):
asked the Reverend Fulton if I could attend his church
service on Sunday, which is what I did. I went
down into church and listened to his sermon. What was
that sermon like on that Sunday. It's a small church,
it's not a big church. Pastor Fulton sort of lives
in the community, has lived in the community, sort of
(06:53):
grew up there. He preached there for forty three years.
He talked a lot about this is what a church does.
It's you know, it's a shelter, a refuge, a safe
haven in a dark storm. He talked about the need
for the community to come together and support a family.
(07:14):
There was a lot of singing. He turned to the
scriptures or inspiration and solace. He talked a lot about
evil and what evil would descend to do this small
country church just up the way north of U thirty
two helping some of the family and friends as they
come to grips with an unspeakable event. Can you describe
the evil community is? I don't think you can really describe.
(07:36):
It is just unbelievable these things it's happening and going on,
and such tragedies like this we should not have them.
You were faced with this giant puzzle, a very tragic
puzzle that you were trying to put together so that
others could learn what it possibly happened. Right, You're trying
to find the truth. You're trying to figure out who
(07:56):
is in a relationship with whom and how were these
people connected and what could have happened, where did they work,
what's all the you know, prior criminal history of everybody.
And you're sort of left as a reporter to, I
mean really to kind of do knock on doors, talk
to people, try to figure out, you know, talk to
(08:16):
the people who are closest to the information and begin
to sort of piece stuff together. And what was the
result of that. I think this part of America gets
a little bit of a rap that it's a very
and it is. It is insular, but it's also kind.
People were kind when they maybe shouldn't have been, you know,
(08:37):
at least to me. And I just I really just
wanted to understand the victims. I wanted to understand family.
So I spend hours, sometimes oftentimes interviewing not just family members,
but people who lived, you know, down the road and
across the way, and you know, the librarian, and I
(08:57):
mean all kinds of you know, really the sheriff and
the attorney general and all of that. People call it
and we did too the road in case of the
rod and certainly their family lost the most people, which
sounds horrific even to say. I mean, I just like,
there's no good words for any of this, But I
mean there are three family units, the Manlies, the Gillies,
(09:22):
and the Rodents. Hannah Gilly is a little often turned
into a rodent or a footnote. Right, we don't get
to explore her world nearly enough. And that's the other
thing I think about Hannah Hazel. That's what they call
Hannah Hazel Gilly to make the distinction between Hannah may Roden.
You know, she became I think, by default a rodent.
(09:45):
So when we first started writing, and I mean I
did think about that, like how we're sort of saying, well,
it's rodents, and I thought, well, she's essentially a rodent.
I mean, she was engaged to Frankie, they were going
to get married, they'd had a child together. She lived
for her son, you know, was really into nursing and
the health of him, and was trying to eat healthy.
(10:07):
She graduated from high school, was totally in love with Frankie.
They were you know, it's everything building a life. She
saw herself as a road And having said that, she's
still a Gilly. And so this amount of devastation to
essentially three families, all of whom live in close proximity
(10:29):
to each other, and their families or have been in
various stages differently intertwined, and the ripple effect of that,
and the children, which is what hit me the hardest.
I'm a mother of two, and the idea that there
were three very small children at the crime scenes and
(10:49):
they were found alive and physically unharmed. Resonated with me
Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine giving an update. Three children
did survive, a four day old, six month old, and
a three year old. I think what makes this particularly
grizzly is the fact that you have these children involved
who obviously were there when executions took place. You know,
(11:11):
it's heartbreaking. I mean, you know the one mom apparently
was killed with the four day old right there. I mean,
it's just, you know, which is hard. It's just hard
to believe. Then I went and did my first column,
and I just went driving Pike County. It's pretty rolling hills,
(11:31):
It's absolutely beautiful, and it was starting to warm up.
Things were beginning to bloom. There were fields of yellow
and purple, and I mean, it's just it was just
absolutely beautiful, all of the things that someone who looks
for ways in which to tell stories you look for, right,
I mean, as this county was going through it's spring rebirth,
(11:54):
it struck me that this tragedy was rippling across sort
of these beautiful fields of yellow flowers. And I just
could not get those three children out of my head.
And I just started looking out and I started to cry, truthfully,
and sort of became, I don't know, overwhelmed, but I
(12:19):
I came around or down a hill and I saw
a house just sort of out on its own, with,
you know, a couple of rocking chairs on the porch,
and you know, they were just rocking, but nobody was
in them. And I sort of started thinking about this
lullaby It's called the Appalachian Lullaby, and it just it
just started going through my head and I was remembering
(12:41):
pieces of it, and I just couldn't help but think
about those children and who would rock them to sleep,
and who would hold them tight, and who, you know,
who would sing them lullabys to sleep. And I thought,
that's what this is about. This was more than just
(13:03):
a homicide or a multiple homicide or a mask killing.
It's about who takes care of those babies and what
in the world happened here, And those children's lives will
never be the same. These are families, so many lives affected,
and the ripple effects of that which will go on
for decades and generations. They now are and will forever
(13:27):
be bound by this horrible tragedy, but both their strength
and their resilience and their resolve and their pain. I mean,
it's incredible to me. I don't, I don't. I'm struggling
with words because I don't know the right words. Truthfully,
it's it's heartbreaking and and just awe inspiring. Somehow they're survivors.
(13:57):
So that's what I wrote about. Nobody can imagine what
this family has been through. Only the other families, the Manlies,
the Gillies, those families are suffering as much as we are.
They only know what we are all going through every
(14:22):
day we live with this. It never goes away. I
can tell you that even though it's been extremely hard,
that I know our family will never stop. We will
never give up. We will never give up trying to
(14:45):
find and bring the people whoever did this to justice.
We will not give up. Can you describe your first
impressions of the Wagner's My first interview with Jake Wagner
and his mom, Angela was on May thirty first, twenty sixteen.
(15:09):
You know, so, what is that six weeks after the homicides.
I had talked with other people who said, oh, they
probably aren't going to talk to you, they're pretty to themselves.
But I knew that Jake and Hannah had been in
a relationship and had had shared a child. Said well, well,
you know, we'll go try. I showed up, and he
and his mom agreed to the interview. He and Angela
(15:31):
outside their home, which was searched two years later. We
sat outside on a patio area and talked for I
don't know, two and a half hours. Maybe there were
children's toys everywhere, like those little pretend little cars that
they drive that are motorized, or little tikes, you know,
(15:52):
the slides and all of that. It seemed like, Wow,
here's a family who really digs their kids and or
grandkids in Angela's case, And I was trying to establish
who were the Wagoners? Who are the Wagoners? When did
you start dating Hannah? What was that relationship? You know?
(16:12):
He didn't dodge questions, looked me in the eye when
I interviewed him, really nice. It seemed to me as
if when we had talked that very first time, that
he was truly in love with Hannah, whatever that means.
But he thought that they were going to be that
it would all that there would be a reconciliation and
(16:33):
they would all come together. And he had this idea
in his head about what that would look like. And
I told him this, like, Wow, for a young man,
you seem to have everything lined up, you know. I mean,
he was saying, well, we were going to do this.
He and Hannah, we were going to do this. We're
going to do this. My plan was this. And I
was like, wow, that's a lot of you are really linear,
(16:55):
I think, is what I said. Everything's has to line up.
And I was sort of taken by that. I didn't
quite know what to think of it. But again, I
try to keep my mind as open as possible when
I'm interviewing people. If in fact what Jake Wagner said
is true. And he committed five of eight murders and
then went to sleep that night, took a shower, and
(17:15):
then had the nerve to sit down with you straight
faced and said, I'm good, you know, like a regular person.
That's so unfathomable to me. Humans are multifaceted. I've said
for years that being a reporter didn't get easier. It
gets harder the longer you do it, because the world,
you begin to understand the world is multidimensional and things
(17:39):
are very it just there's not sometimes these clear things,
they're not I have a lot of questions. As someone
who's talked to Jake before, I have tons of questions,
as you can only imagine. But yeah, I mean it
seemed to me as if, as I just painted, you know,
there were toys everywhere. He talked about his daughter all
(18:02):
the time. He talked about you know, for instance, he
could name movies they all watched together, the books he
would read her before they went to bed, what he
told her about where her mom was. You know that
mom's with Jesus now, he said, You know, I don't
(18:22):
know how to explain to her that mom isn't coming back.
Did you ask where his daughter was that night? I mean,
it was my understanding that this was his week to
have the child, and he had gotten the child a
day earlier than he would normally have done that. Fast
(18:44):
forward five years. If Jake Wagner is to be believed
by what he said in court, what we still don't
know is where all four of the Wagners were the
night and early morning of the twenty some twenty second.
So there's an assumption, I think that all four of
(19:05):
the Wagners participated physically in the crimes. I don't know
if that's true. I simply don't know that. What Jake
said and as you all know, what Jake said in
court is that he was quote unquote personally responsible for
five of the eight victims. So I don't know where
(19:25):
his brother was, his dad or his mom. What was
Angela Wagner? Like, Jake talked a lot more than Angela,
but Angela would add on things as Jake talked. But
any in person interview I did with Jake, Angela was
(19:46):
there and didn't leave. I mean she was a mom.
I mean that's how I saw it. You know, she's
a mom. Here her Again, this is six weeks after
these homicides, and when I you know, and again I'm
not trying to be sympathetic to the Aagner's right now,
I'm not. But again, dialing back five years, I show
up on your doorstep, and if I'm the mom and
(20:09):
my son has just lost the mother of his child,
I guess I thought she was just being a protective mom,
I'm here for my kid kind of thing. Again, this
all looks different today than it did five years ago.
At the time, did you feel like they might have
been guilty or did you believe what they were saying
or do you not put yourself in that position to
(20:30):
even have an opinion? I had somebody asked me, I
don't even know a couple of years ago, what's it
like to look into the eyes of pure evil? I said,
I don't know. Sometimes I think that people think it
would you would just automatically. I don't know that. Some
like I have some kind of radar that go off,
we're you know, home. But they weren't suspects, so I
(20:53):
wasn't approaching them with that in the back of my mind, like, oh,
now you're suspects in this. It was more information gathering.
They didn't seem nervous. I don't think they ever asked me,
because sometimes in interviews people will say, oh, don't use that,
or don't use that, or that makes me really nervous,
or I mean, I don't recall any of that. You know.
(21:15):
It wasn't any like, well you can't use that, or
what are you doing or any of that. But I don't.
You know, again, you don't know what you don't know.
And to be completely honest, I did ask them Angela
and Jake Wants via email, just straight out did you
kill them? And they never responded, we're going to take
(21:39):
a quick break. Here, we'll be back in a moment. Oh.
I'm Carol Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends.
Back in the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few
of us dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob.
He spoke several languages, he did medical missionary work, and
(22:04):
he was Jewish. He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't.
He really wasn't. He shouted and to the point she
went unconscious. Bob could lie about anything, but only takes
the one time when somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for Bob,
us girlfriends know how to fight back. I wanted him
(22:25):
to pay for his crime. He needed to be put
to justice. I'll be honest with you. If I saw
him right now, I'd spit on him. I would call
him and I would say, I know you killed my sister.
I will always hound you and haunt you. You can
listen to The Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you get your podcasts. In our twenty two
(22:46):
years of friendship, Andy, this has to be the most
bizarre thing we've ever done. I know, I love it.
Our podcast. My Vagina said, what is a podcast? Where
we ask our everyday Vagina listeners to pull up a
seat at the best Friend's table as were our most
personal and humiliating stories and ask questions about women's bodies.
We are going to discuss all body things like what
(23:07):
exactly are we supposed to do with our pubs? Oh
my gosh, if you could have a heart shaped pube
that were bedazzled in pink rubies or perrymenopause, I feel
right now justified. I'm going to start my own personal movement.
I'm going to start blaming anything that goes wrong in
my life on perrymenopause, leg hair too long, haruse, don't
(23:33):
have the will to clean, perrymopause exactly? Are whack periods?
Boob issues and so much more. Listen to My Vagina
said What podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or
wherever you get your podcasts. What. This is the unbelievable
but true story of George Ramus. You might know him
as a character from Boardwalk Empire or as the inspiration
(23:56):
for Jay Gatsby. He was an eccentric and genius lawyer
who figured out how to game the system during Prohibition.
Remus is in the whiskey business, and Remus is the
biggest man in the business while living the life of
luxury with his clamorous and ambitious wife Imogene Daddy. I
am so glad you are here. But George Remus's wild
(24:17):
existence took a dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal.
She had Remus just exactly where she wanted him revenge.
Feel this muscle. I got this for Remus. I could
crush him like an egg. And one of the most
sensational murder trials in American history, we the jury, find
the defendant, Join me Abbot kaylor As we traced George
(24:40):
Remus's transformation from bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to
Remus the Mad Bootleg King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Afghanistan twenty twelve,
One Quiet Night, Staffs Are Robert Bales left his I'm
at outpost alone. He walked into two villages and started shooting,
(25:05):
killing sixteen civilians, many of them children. Maybe I made
a mistake, maybe I am wrong, but you have to
understand the way it went down. We've conducted a series
of interviews with one of America's most notorious war criminals.
They paint a complex portrait of a man changed by
the global War on terror, the idea of hurting a
kid killing a kid Come on. The War Within the
(25:28):
Robert Bales Story is an investigative podcast revealing explosive information
on one of the most controversial events in American military history.
Bale's actions are merely a symptom of a broken army.
Listen to The War Within the Robert Bale Story on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
(25:59):
In seventeen, the investigation ramped up. More than two dozen
investigators are focused on solving one of Ohio's largest mass
murders in history. As of today, we've received eight hundred
and eighty three tips, we have conducted four hundred and
sixty five interviews, thirty eight search warrants have been issued,
and sixty cyber extractions have been done. They say they
(26:20):
made significant progress in the investigation, believe more than one
person committed the crimes, but to day, the killers are
still on the loose. When did you hear that the
Wagners were suspects? All of a sudden, I got a
tipped from somebody. They said, hey, have you heard about
the search at the Wagners. And it became really clear
(26:43):
to me that they must have had something, because you'd
have to have probable cause. So whatever it was that
got them probable cause to do the search, I thought, well,
they found something, because it isn't just going to be
a fishing expedition, right. So I got in my car
and I drove there, and the helicopters up and there
were law enforcement, like on four wheelers. I was sitting
(27:05):
there at the search and someone said, well, you know
the house is sold. I said, no, I don't know that.
And then I sat in my car and looked up
the property records and saw that it was on the market.
And then you start connecting the dots in your own head, right,
And I was like, whoa wait a minute, wait a minute.
(27:27):
And then I found out they were in Alaska. The
Wagners were in Alaska. And then I went to the
editor and said, I need to go to Alaska. I
need to talk to them. We have major developments tonight
in a bazaar and tragic murder case with ties between
Ohio and Alaska. Investigators want any information the public has
about the Wagner family. That someone has information, it really
(27:50):
is in their best interest to come forth voluntarily thank
you of us that information. They're not messing around. We're
going to laugh for people if they're building average from
much so it's you, Marri interst to come forward. They
went somewhere where you had to really want to find
them to find them, right, They did seem like they
were trying to get lost in a way. They lived
(28:13):
in a rural part that's a Kenai peninsula, and Alaska
is expansive, but I mean everything is so far from
everything else. I talked with people and you know, a
little like a little cafe. People knew that they were there,
but it wasn't any big deal. They were like, oh,
you mean the people who are wanted in Ohio for
killing all those people. Attorney General Dwine you know, said
(28:36):
they were, you know, while not calling them suspects, said,
you know, they were laser focus of the investigation. And
I'm like, well, actually they're not really wanted, you know.
I mean that was the thing that was really interesting.
By the time the news got there, most people thought
they were wanted, but that didn't seem to bother people.
(28:56):
I remember quoting a guy saying, well, this is where
people come to get lost. You know, it's no surprise.
I remember being struck when we drove there that, well,
of course they live here. It looks just like Pike County.
You know, it's wooded, it's beautiful. When I knocked on
the door, she came to the door and I said, Angela,
(29:17):
I'm here, let's talk. And she was sort of startled,
I think, to see me. And then Jake came to
the door, and the little girl came and Jake Wagner says, oh,
my gosh, Chris, it's so great to see you. It's
so great to see somebody. I mean, there was no trepidation.
But Billie did yell. I never saw him, but he
yelled from the living room, Hey, Angela, what are you doing?
(29:39):
You know, get back in here. And she's like, oh,
don't mind him. You know, his barks hours in his bite.
I mean, they were like, well, I don't know about this.
We've got a lawyer back in Ohio. I don't think
we should say anything until we talked to him. I
was like, well, i'd really like to do a sit
down interview. I'd really like to record it. Then it
became a back and forth about well, who's your lawyer,
(30:01):
how do I talk to him? Where do I get him?
What we do I need to talk to him? And
then I had a long conversation with him on the phone,
but he was in Ohio, So I go all the
way to Alaska to talk to somebody in Ohio. And
he was the one who made it sound like Dwine
was harassing them. This is all harassment. They've done nothing
(30:23):
but be cooperative. They've cooperated one hundred and ten percent.
They've given over their laptops, their phones, they've provided DNA,
they've agreed to any number of interviews with a BCI,
which is the Ohio Bureau of Criminal Investigation. They've told
(30:45):
authorities that they were going to Alaska. The state is
making them look like suspects when they haven't called them suspects.
And then he said that it probably wouldn't be a
good idea to give the interview like they basically agreed
to it, and then said nope, never mind, we've changed
our mind, which is really unfortunate. It was the last
(31:06):
time Chris Graves would ever speak with the Wagner family. However,
she recently returned to Pike County for the first time
in years after hearing some shocking news. Exactly five years
after the road and murders in Pike County, one of
the four defendants, Jake Wagner, is pleading guilty to all
counts In exchange, he avoids the death penalty and will
serve multiple life sentences with no chance at parole. His father, mother,
(31:30):
and brother are similarly charged, and they've pleaded not guilty.
Prosecutors say that Jake will testify against them. Hearing the
prosecutor sort of described that he, you know who's going
to change his plea and outlining the terms of the
plea arrangement, and then when she shared some details of
the crime, it just was like, oh my gosh, this
(31:52):
is really happening right now. I mean, I'm a journalist,
so I just sort of think about, what are the facts,
what's happening, what are they saying. I don't even know
if I really believe he personally killed five people? I thought,
is he trying to get his mom off? Is he
trying to pay the picture that his mom wasn't there
(32:15):
or his dad somebody wasn't there, So he's gonna like
hop the majority of them all four were involved, But
what does that mean? Does that mean two were involved
in the planning? Other people did something? You know, somebody
went in and pulled all the trail cameras, but weren't
involved in the actual shooting. I don't. Again, we don't really,
(32:38):
and I know I'm saying this all the time, but
we really don't know. A ton of these details. A
lot of it, even with his guilty plea, is speculation.
So I don't know. I'm like, well, is he trying
to spare as he trying to lie about? Who is there?
(32:59):
I mean, he's lie before, so why would he tell
the complete truth? Now let's stop here for another quick break.
We'll be back in a moment. Oh. I'm Carol Fisher,
and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. Back in
(33:22):
the nineteen nineties in Las Vegas, a few of us
dated the most eligible bachelor in town, Bob. He spoke
several languages, he did medical missionary work, and he was Jewish.
He was perfect on paper, but he wasn't. He really wasn't.
He shouted into the point she went unconscious. Bob could
(33:46):
lie about anything, but only takes the one time when
somebody ends up dead. Unfortunately for bob, Us girlfriends know
how to fight back. I wanted him to pay for
his crime. He needed to be put to justice. I'll
be honest with you. If I saw him right now,
I'd spit on him. I would call him and I
would say, I know you killed my sister. I will
(34:06):
always hound you and haunt you. You can listen to
the Girlfriends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts. In our twenty two years of friendship, Andy,
this has to be the most bizarre thing we've ever done.
I know, I love it. Our podcast My Vagina said,
what is a podcast where we ask our everyday Vagina
(34:27):
listeners to pull up a seat at the best Friend's
table as we share our most personal and humiliating stories
and ask questions about women's bodies. We are going to
discuss all body things, like what exactly are we supposed
to do with our pubs? Oh my gosh, if you
could have a heart shaped pube that were bedazzled in
(34:47):
pink rubies or perrymenopause, I feel right now justified. I'm
going to start my own personal movement. I'm going to
start blaming anything that goes wrong in my life on perrymenopause,
us leg hair too long, Harry don't have the will
to clean, Harry Minipade exactly, are whacked periods, boob issues,
(35:09):
and so much more. Listen to my Vagina said. What
podcasts on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast or wherever you
get your podcasts. What. This is the unbelievable but true
story of George Remus. You might know him as a
character from Boardwalk Empire or as the inspiration for Jay Gatsby.
He was an eccentric and genius lawyer who figured out
(35:31):
how to game the system during Prohibition. Remus is in
the whiskey business, and Remus is the biggest man in
the business, while living the life of luxury with his
clamorous and ambitious wife Imogene. Daddy, I am so glad
you are here. But George Remus's wild existence took a
dark and shocking turn, leading to betrayal. She had Remus
(35:52):
just exactly where she wanted him revenge. Feel this muscle.
I got this for Remus. I could crush him like
an egg. And one of the most sensational murder trials
in American history, we the jury find the defendant, Join
me Abbot Kaylor as we traced George Remus's transformation from
bootleg King to alleged madman. Listen to Remus The Mad
(36:16):
Bootleg King every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Afghanistan twenty twelve, One
Quiet Night, Staffs Aren't Robert Bales left his combat outpost alone.
He walked into two villages and started shooting, killing sixteen civilians,
(36:38):
many of them children. Maybe I made a mistake, maybe
I am wrong, but you have to understand the way
it went down. We've conducted a series of interviews with
one of America's most notorious war criminals. They paint a
complex portrait of a man changed by the global War
on Terror. The idea of hurting a kid killing a
kid Come on. The War Within the Robert Bayle Story
(37:00):
is an investigating podcast revealing explosive information on one of
the most controversial events in American military history. Bale's actions
are merely a symptom of a broken army. Listen to
the War Within the Robert Bale Story on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Like everybody.
(37:30):
I want to know the answers. I want to know
the details. I want to know, like how you come
up with this? How do you do you? Are you
all just sitting around the kitchen table like plotting this?
And at some point, why is it that out of
four people, somebody doesn't say, uh no, no, it's one
thing to talk about it. But now we're doing it,
(37:53):
and we're building silencers and we're plotting things as I mean,
as it's been described. Some mental way, you're imagining you're
doing something good for the benefit of your kin, your grandchild,
But why would you put your own kids in the
heart of murder? And again the idea that of four people,
(38:15):
of four people who were supposedly religious people, not one
of you said thou shalt not kill. Not one of you, really,
not one of you had a moment where you said
this is wrong. This is fundamentally catastrophically wrong. I honestly
(38:44):
don't I cannot understand that, Like, was that a surprise
to you that it was that it was them? No.
The thing that startled me, or continues to I guess
that I've hard time wrapping my brain around, is that
you would annihilate eight people or an entire family over
(39:07):
the custody of your of the youngest member of that
mine could joined family. But I can't think it's got
to be about more than that. My gosh, I mean,
who does this or custody? You know, who destroys a family,
decimates a family and in essence then destroying that child's
(39:34):
life to protect that. It just doesn't it doesn't reconcile
with me. I remember interviewing Tony Rowden. He's the brother
of the victims and uncle and all of that. I
remember Tony just saying Chris, and I can't, I mean, please,
don't let that be true. I hope that isn't true,
because that little girl does not deserve this, you know,
(39:55):
for her sake. I just I hope this isn't true.
An he meant it, I mean, came from a very
deep and meaningful place. But I guess we're all always
looking for logical explanations to a logical acts. What has
been your experience being back in Pike County now five
(40:16):
years later? The question I've asked people here is do
people still think about this case? Do people still talk
about this? And the response that I've got is yes,
and I guess. I talked to a couple of people
the other day in a public setting, and they talked
in the terms of how tragic it is and how
(40:40):
it's inconceivable. But yeah, I think it's a ballacy, and
not just in this case but in all cases to
think that there's like a closure thing. I don't think
that exists. I drove past the crime scenes and they,
you know, interestingly, a couple buildings that remain there a
(41:03):
little bit more weathered I noticed. But it feels like
time sort of a standing still there, you know, waiting
for an end to this. So I don't think this
brings anybody closure. I think that's some Hollywood nice version
of well, now you get to move on with your life.
(41:24):
I think that's frankly bs. I think the amount of
loss and the ripple effects of that loss will be
felt for generations. But truthfully has become the most important
and meaningful story of my career. At the end of
(41:48):
the day, I was doing my work, and I try
to do that with compassion and empathy and understanding, as
well as trying to find facts and being hard when
I need to. But it's but then I get to leave,
you know, I get to leave, and certainly they stay
with me, and they will always stay with me. But
(42:11):
I don't, you know, I don't wake up every morning
without a mother, without a son, without my grandchildren, without
you know, I don't wake up having to figure out
how to tell those children what happened to their mothers
and fathers and cousins and uncles and that or I mean,
(42:38):
my goodness, you know, the conversations that are going to
have to be had with Jake and Hannah's daughter. I mean,
I don't have to do that. And that that's what
I want people to think about when they think about
this crime. I think sometimes we become fascinated with the
inner workings of how would one family do this to
(42:59):
the their family. These are people's lives, and I cannot
say that enough. And that's what should not be forgotten
in all of this is that through all of the
horrificness of the crime these there are so many people
left behind in this wake. The family was decimated. So
(43:25):
I guess that's what that I hope people take away
from this, as opposed to it's a salacious story. On
June twenty one, twenty twenty one, accused brother George Wagner
will head back to court for a hearing, one that
could change the landscape of the case moving forward. But
(43:47):
as we wait, we turn our attention to another story
that has had a lasting effect on a different community,
just miles away from Pike County. It centers around a
notorious lawyer named Michael Moran. He was arrested in twenty
twenty eight in charges related to running a prostitution ring.
He's pleaded not guilty to all of them and is
currently awaiting trial. He's accused of trafficking women all over
(44:09):
the country, from New York and New Jersey to Florida.
A lot of these women are part of marginalized society
right Nobody was listening to their stories before or seeing
them as even human. They were seeing them as criminals,
people who would rob them, people who were going to
break into their house, but nobody was really hearing from them.
(44:31):
I wanted to continue to investigate these stories, but I
didn't know at that time how big this was. More
on that next time. For more information on the case
and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
(44:56):
The piked In massacre returned to Pike County is Executive
produced by Steph Knee, Lie Decker and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional
producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves. We'd
like to thank the maud Hammond Flaying Faculty Research Fellowship Grant,
which supports faculty research at the University of Nebraska Lincoln,
(45:17):
where Chris Graves teaches journalism. The Piked and Massacre Returned
to Pike County is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. I'm Carol
Fisher and I'm hosting a podcast called The Girlfriends. It's
(45:40):
Las Vegas, it's the nineteen nineties, and it is time
to find a husband. There were four Jewish doctors who
were felt to be eligible bachelors. One of them was
the spot Barrenbout. On paper, he was perfect, but in reality,
this guy's a wacko out and to the point she
(46:01):
went unconscious. I would call him and I would say,
I know you killed my sister. You can listen to
the girl Friends on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast or
wherever you get your podcasts. These days, more often than not,
the success of a company is attributed to its founder.
But that's only part of this story. My name is
Noah Callahan Bever and I'm brought to present Idea Generations
(46:22):
All Angles, a Willpacker Media podcast. We'll be talking to
all the key players from all your favorite brains like
Loud Records, Ghetto, Gastro and Earn your Leisure. So join
me each week as we dissect the most dynamic companies
and culture, because the only way to truly understand success
is to look at it from all angles. Listen new
Idea Generations All Angles on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast
or wherever you get your podcasts. This is the unbelievable
(46:45):
but true story of George Remus. He was an eccentric
and genius lawyer who figured out how to game the
system during Prohibition. Remus is the biggest man in the business,
but George Ramis's wild existence took a dark and shocking turn,
leading to trial, revenge, and one of the most sensational
murder trials in American history. Listen to Remus, the mad
(47:08):
bootleg King, every Tuesday on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, everybody, are you
ready for a brand new podcast that you had no
idea existed. I'm Rory Scoville and I'm Daniel van Kirk
and it's the pen Pals Podcast. Maybe you've had a
pen pal before, where you have two of them right now.
You send us your letters about anything going on in
(47:29):
your life. Gotta mean Grandma, need a new haircut, whatever
it is, send it to us and we have guests
like Will Ferrell, Andy Samberg, Rose Burne, Brett Goldstein, and
Mandy Moore. Listen to the pen Pals Podcast on Will
Ferrell's Big Money Players Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts,
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