September 16, 2020 • 46 mins
With Fredericka Wagner and Rita Jo Newcomb spared jail time in connection with the Rhoden murders, we turn our focus to the four other family members awaiting their days in court.
In episode eight, we look at what life in prison is like for Billy, Angela, George and Jake Wagner, the four accused “trigger pullers” in the Rhoden murders. George has requested solitary confinement and Angela’s phone and mail privileges have been revoked. How does this affect their upcoming trials and overall quality of life? We’ll also examine both the prosecution and defenses’ arguments, the turns the case has taken since their imprisonment and how the outcome will shape the legacy of Ohio’s largest mass murder.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
How Deep does a Mother's Love Run? Now streaming only
on Hulu. Experience a race against time by four mothers
who went undercover. My ex partner abducted our six year
old son and took him out of the country. This
was a mother's worth nightmare, and we'll stop at nothing.
I knew something bad and for the children they love.
I was so scared, and that's when all hell breaks loose.
(00:21):
Mother Undercover. I wanted him to know you mess with
the wrong mother. Now streaming only on Hulu Search Mother Undercover.
Since her role as White House correspondent, Caitlyn Collins has
never been afraid to dic deep. She's a reliable, deeply
sourced reporter and is always willing to hold the powerful accountable.
On her new CNN show The Source with Caitlyn Collins,
(00:43):
Caitlyn is bringing that tenacious spirit to prime time. She's
chasing the facts, connecting with her rolodex of sources, and
pulling the threads of a story together right up to
the minute she goes live, so viewers are getting the
very latest. The Source with Caitlyn Collins weeknights at nine
pm Eastern only on CIA. He'll forget about the video
game you gave him on his birthday. Wow, Thanks Grandpa.
(01:05):
But he'll never forget how you invested in his future
with the unstapp. Wow, Thanks Grandpa. The unstap makes it
easy for grandparents and family friends to give funds to
a child's investment account for a limited time. Download the
uns stapp and use the code I Heart fifty at
sign up to receive a fifty dollar bonus when you
find your account. That's code I Heart fifty when you
sign up at u n est dot coo for fifty
(01:28):
dollars bonus. See terms and conditions at unest dot coo.
How long was Neil Armstrong actually on the Moon? When
did Europe start speaking English? Did Marco Polo really go
to China? Curiosity Stream is the streaming service for all
things history, plus science, wildlife and more. What's the real
story behind the Mona Lisa, We've got that. What caused
the collapse of Rome? We know? Where? Did we find
(01:49):
Mankind's earliest ancestor? Come find out? From Egypt to Weinstein.
Curiosity Stream is the place for history with monthly, annual,
and bundled plans. Find one for you curiosity stream dot com.
Welcome to the piked to Massacre a production of iHeartRadio
and Katie Studios Episode eight, Truth Be Revealed. Over the
(02:12):
course of seven episodes, we have examined the details of
the murders of eight members of the Roden family, the
investigation that was launched in their wake, and what led
up to the arrests of six members of the Wagner family.
Now we're going to look at where the case stands
and what lies ahead next week's episode, Burning Questions. I'm
Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie
(02:34):
Ledecker and Jeff Shane. When we left off last week,
it was June twenty six, twenty nineteen, and Frederica Wagner
was in the defendant's chair in a Pike County courtroom.
She was facing charges of obstruction of justice and perjury
and connection with the Roden murders. Here's Frederica's niece, Derey,
defending her aunt's claims. First, the prosecutors falsely believed the
(02:57):
bulletproof best were purchased before the road and homicides. Both
sides know that it is not true. They were in
fact purchased on May the seventh, twenty and sixteen, fifteen
days after the day of the homicides. So that's proven.
We know that there's like receipts, right, yep, got receipt Scott.
(03:18):
We have everything. Second, she guessed and thought that she
bought them from Amazon. Now why they made a big
deal about what what origin? They came off the internet?
She ordered him off the internet. Whenever you go on
the Internet, a bunch of places come up. Usually Amazon
(03:40):
is the first thing that comes up. She did that
a lot, but they made a big deal about it.
So they went back through her books and they found
out that she did buy them, but it wasn't from Amazon.
It was eBay. But criminal defense attorney Mike Allen told
Jeff that Frederica State are a much bigger deal than
(04:01):
deray things. Well, obviously, when you have a situation like
this and someone involved with the people that are charged
makes a purchase of two bulletproof fast, whether it's from
eBay or Amazon, it's something that the prosecution would be
interested in. And you know, she apparently was before the
grand jury when she misrepresented, if you will, where she
(04:25):
bought these things from. And it's relevant and also too,
I think it would be fair to say that the
prosecution probably wanted this put on it, these charges put
on her to have a little bit of leverage with
her too. Do you think that her explanation of just saying, oh,
I don't remember, I got it confused as an attorney,
do you think that makes someone look more guilty? Yeah,
(04:47):
it does, especially something like this. And I know she's elderly,
but boy, she should certainly seems like she's pretty sharp.
But it's a rather big event. In most people's lives,
if they purchased bulletproof vest online or anyway you purchased them,
that you would think that you would remember where you
purchased them from. So yeah, it doesn't make her look
(05:09):
good at all. Ultimately, Frederico Wagner's lawyer filed receipts that
proved she made the purchases fifteen days after the slayings.
This led the defense team to turn over potential evidence
as required to the prosecution, too late to meet the
criteria for a speedy trial. They dismissed the charges against
(05:30):
Frederico Wagner, while reserving the right to charge her again.
Mike Allen broke down what all this means with respect
to the Ohio Speedy trial statute. It's generally you have
to bring a felony case within two hundred and seventy
days from the indictment. I think the prosecution was running
out of time, so strategically, I think they decided to
(05:51):
dismiss it with the option and the right to refile
it again if that becomes necessary, so she could get
charged with the same crimes again. Oh yeah, they were
dismissed without prejudice, which means that the state can refile
them at a later date. But it seems that Frederico
Wagner doesn't foresee that happening. Here. She is speaking to
(06:13):
the press after the hearing. Trust in the Lord with
all your heart, lean not to your own understanding, in
all your ways. Acknowledge Him and he will direct your path.
And as my attorney will tell you, it was dismissed
because I was innocent. They had no evidence against me.
I never lied about anything. Frederico Wagner's freedom validates what
(06:37):
Deray has believed all along. She has never in her
life done anything wrong. She's not capable of it. And
you know, if she thought that her kids would have
done something bad, she would have recommended that they turned
themselves in for anything. I mean she she lives by
(07:02):
what she says she lives by, which is what well.
She gives all the glory to God. Angela, Billy Jake,
and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's mother,
Rita Joe Nukam, and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were both
(07:23):
charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was also
charged with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty,
and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt is proven.
But one thing that doesn't help Frederica Wagner's case is
a revelation by the prosecution at a pre trial hearing
for her son Billy in twenty twenty, The States submitted
(07:46):
evidence showing that the night before Frederica testified before the
grand jury in twenty eighteen, she had searched the Internet
for information about penalties for perjury. Here's our anonymous Wagner
family relative. She shared her thoughts with Jeff. Do you
think that his mom, Billy's mom, Frederica, Do you think
she had any involvement? I believe that I believe she
(08:07):
could have. Yet I believe that she definitely. Uh. I
don't believe she try to stop it, you know, I
don't believe that she. I believe it's anything she probably
definitely she would have encouraged it and her story should
do what he did. Others like Roden family friend Stefane,
(08:28):
thinks that Frederico wasn't just involved in the murders, but
could possibly have orchestrated the whole thing. I don't take
her for a dumb woman at all. She's a businesswoman.
She's probably shrewd. She's the head the monarch, you know,
so the monarch is usually the one that that has
their thumb on everybody. She wanted to control over everything,
(08:51):
seems to me. Like to investigative journalist Jodi Barr, the
alleged involvement of Frederico Wagner up ends convened of who
actually could be capable of being involved in murder. I
think this case, if it ended today as it is alleged,
I don't think there is anybody on this planet that
could look at those people and say, those people look
(09:14):
like a family who could swatter eight human beings if
you ever thought you knew what a mass murderer looked like.
I think this case in Pike County is showing you
you have no idea. So here we are four years later.
Two of the six defendants are free and four others
are in prison facing death penalty charges, accused of killing
(09:36):
eight members of the Roden family. Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff.
As it stands now, the trials for Billy, Angela, Jake,
and George Wagner are slated to begin in the next
few months. Now. To really understand this case and where
it stands in what's to come, we'll have to examine
some of the most important points. In the five thousand
pages of discovery documents that list the prosecution's evidence. There
(09:58):
are more than three written thirty two thousand files of
evidence in this case. One of the exhibits in the
prosecution's arsenal is related to Billy Wagner in his copy
of the nineteen ninety nine movie The Boondock Saints. The
film is about two brothers in Boston who exact a
form of vigilanty justice by murdering mobsters and other criminals.
It's extremely violent and over the top, but the big
(10:19):
takeaway for this case is that the brothers in the
film use silencers. On their guns, a method that members
of the Wagner family are accused of using to execute
the Rodents. As we covered in the last episode, a
homemade silencer was discovered at a farm once owned by
Jake and George Wagner, but Deray thinks the connection is
tenuous at best. I read deck and I had to laugh.
(10:44):
I had to laugh so hard. Okay, so you have
to remember that this was a very organized, brilliantly done execution.
This is something that you wouldn't learn on a DVD.
(11:05):
Somebody with military background, Navy seals. I mean, whoever did
it was was brilliant. They're professional. These people are not
professional killers. Mike Gallant told Jeff that the DVD could
(11:25):
be a building block in the state's case. You can't
watch a movie and learn how to wipe out an
entire family. That seems like a stretch. What is your
take on that. Yeah, I don't think they could introduce
it for the proposition that that's how the Wagner's learned
how to do that. I think if the state introduced
it or attempted to get it introduced, it would just
(11:47):
be kind of peripheral to like, hey, you know, somebody
in that family watched that movie or ordered that movie,
or bought that movie, and it's a movie about vigilante justice.
But I would certainly cry at least because apparently in
this case, the allegation is silencers were used, and they
were used in that movie as well, So it would
(12:09):
be one piece of evidence that they could add on
to other evidence. It would be a piece of evidence
if admitted that they could talk about in closing arguments. So,
while not determinative in any way, shape or form, it
is evidence that could be helpful to the state. There's
(12:29):
a mountain of other evidence the prosecution plans on using.
One that stands out is an Excel spreadsheet that contains
five hundred and nineteen entries of messages about child custody.
I spoke with my Gallon about it. Another piece of
evidence that's been talked about are these Excel spreadsheets. Apparently
they had hundreds of entries of cataloging the messages about
(12:50):
child custody and Facebook screenshots regarding it, what does that
tell you, Well, it tells me that could be part
of the motive in this case. And it's pretty strong
evidence of motive if they're keeping all these things and screenshots,
and it seems that they were kind of obsessed with
his desire to get custody and control. That would be circumstantial,
(13:13):
but circumstantial evidence sometimes can be very strong evidence. Just
because evidence is circumstantial doesn't mean that it's not good
evidence and strong evidence. But you know, it's like you're
dropping pebbles into a pond. Every little pebble makes a ripple,
and you know, you build on those things and at
(13:34):
the end of the day, at the prosecution does it right.
Every little bit helps with respect to building a case.
The discovery documents also include information about a person that
some speculate could be an informant. Jodie Barr told us
about trying to track down this source. The name of
the informant has not been published, which is why it's
(13:55):
bleeped in his interview. The only thing I know is
that was a name given very early on who I
was told did business with Chris Rodin. I was never
able to even find that this person exists. I guess
they did. This person really does exist. But when I
was given a list of names of people who could
have potentially either been involved in this, knew about this.
(14:19):
This is one person I tried to track down and
find over in Sciota County, which is just across the
line from Pike, and I was never able to find
this person. But I was told that this person knew
Chris Senior intimately as far as you know, they were
together a lot, and they were in some business ventures together.
(14:41):
But again I was never able to find this person
or to verify anything that was ever told me about them.
Prosecutors for the case claim another confidential informant told them
of a specific meeting at Frederico Wagner's home. It occurred
with the other accused family members and allegedly include to
talk of quote taking revenge on a special agent then
(15:03):
Attorney General Mike Dawine, and Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader.
The revenge was allegedly planned if her family was arrested.
Jodie Barr dissected these claims with Jeff. It just seems
so careless that the people accused of this would be
bringing outsiders into a home, although we don't know who
(15:25):
the confidential informant is, but that they would risk getting
caught if they were so skillful in pulling this off
that they would bring outsiders in to have discussions like
this where they're number one admitting it essentially, but secularly,
you're talking about taking hits out on the chief law
enforcer in Pike County and the chief law enforce for
(15:46):
the state of Ohio. But that's an interesting point that
it doesn't really compute that if they were like ninjas
and they could do this of elaborate crime, why would
they be so sloppy then to have these conversations with
other people. When I see confidential informant in this sentence
meant a part of he goes. I wonder if one
of the Wagoners has rolled over and is helping this
(16:07):
investigation still something I know there have been some plea
deals already made here, some charges dismissed. But you've got
to wonder who is this informant because if it's a
member of the Wagner family, and I think that's a
twist no one saw coming. Let's stop here for a
(16:31):
quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. Like
many of us, you might think identity theft will never
happen to you, but consider this. There's a new identity
theft victim every three seconds in the US. That's over
fifteen million people by the end of this year equal
to the populations of New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago combined.
(16:53):
Even worse, identity theft victims often don't even know they're victims.
That's why LifeLock Identity theft protection help to identify threats,
even the ones that don't show up on a credit report,
like data breaches, fraudulent bank transactions, loan in credit card applications,
and crimes committed in your name. If your identity is stolen,
your own dedicated LifeLock US based restoration specialist will work
(17:17):
to fix it. No one can prevent all identity theft,
but LifeLock protects you in ways that you simply can't
on your own. Save up to twenty five percent your
first year at LifeLock dot com slash iHeart. That's LifeLock
dot com slash iHeart to save up to twenty five percent.
Identity theft protection starts here. You will fail, so what
(17:39):
everybody does, but your jim your watch, your yoga pants.
They pretend you won't. So when you miss a day,
eat the pancakes, give up on a workout, you failed. Seriously,
what the hell we're body? We've been a part of
that too, but not anymore at Body or rejecting perfection
(18:01):
and embracing reality, not in a Pizza Monday kind of way,
in a loving your whole life kind of way, in
a this workout is fun and it's okay if I
take a week off kind of way, in an I'm
eating healthy and it's okay if I indulge kind of way,
in a I like myself. No matter what kind of way. Yeah,
(18:22):
you will fail, we all will. But we're not going
to let that be the end and see that we're
already making progress. So let's keep going. We are Body.
Start your free trial at Body dot com. That's Bodi
dot com. Only on CNN. See It Loud The History
of Black Television of five part docuseries celebrating the achievements
(18:45):
of black actors and creators, examining the historical impacts black
culture has on all culture. See It Loud explores the
best history of black television through iconic performances and sitcoms,
comedy drama, Unscared, Did Variety, and sci fi, premiering Sunday
to Lie nine at nine pm. He'll forget about the
(19:08):
video game you gave him on his birthday. Wow. Thanks Grandpa,
but he'll never forget how you invested in his future
with the un stapp. Wow, thanks, Grandpa. Don't just give
them any gift, give them a gift that can grow
with them. Invite grandparents and family friends to contribute to
(19:30):
your child's future with the un stapp. Unst is an
investment account for kids that makes it easy to gift
funds that can be used for college tuition, their first home,
and more. Just by sharing the link or include a
UNSQR code on party invitations for birthdays and holidays. For
a limited time, download the uns stapp and use the
(19:50):
code I Heart fifty at sign up to receive a
fifty dollar bonus when you fund your account. That's code
I Heart fifty when you sign up at une st
dot zo for fifty dollars bonus. See terms and conditions
at uns dot coo. The discovery documents also have two thousand,
(20:16):
nine hundred and eighteen pages related to DNA evidence. Mike
Allen spoke to us about the role DNA could play
in the case. I can tell you from dealing with
DNA evidence both as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney.
That's not good news for the defense If they've got
almost three thousand pages of DNA evidence, evidence that would
(20:38):
have been sent to the lab and comes back, they've
got to have something. I mean, I would be shocked
if they didn't have some credible DNA evidence against at
least one of these defendants, probably more of them. That's
bad news for the defense. There's just no way of
getting around it. Because DNA evidence, if extracted proper and
(21:00):
analyze properly, it's pretty much lights out if they did
it correctly. So I think that's problematic for the defense.
Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. In addition, the report also
lists one thousand, one hundred and seventy crime scene photos,
cyber forensic reports of the Wagners, their cell phones and
(21:22):
their computers, and hundreds of pages citing reference to the
recovery of firearms and ballistic testing. In fact, at the
pre trial hearing for George Wagner just a few weeks ago,
we got a glimpse into some of the evidence they have.
So this hearing was for emotion. The defense was making
to get George Wagner, the eldest son, released from prison
on bond. In response, the prosecution laid out some of
(21:45):
the evidence they have against George Wagner, basically as an
argument to keep George behind bars. One of the lead
detectives on the case testified that he and his team
have real ballistic evidence connecting firearms used in the homicides
with guns believed to be owned by the Wagners, including
a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty caliber handgun,
(22:06):
and a thirty caliber gun. Prosecutors also pointed to evidence
that shoeprints from the exact same shoes purchased at Walmart
by the Wagners to allegedly frame Dana Rodin's brother, you remember,
James Manley, were found in dried blood at two of
the crime scenes, and yet this in fact receipts for
those exact same shoes. There are a very specific Walmart
(22:29):
athletic shoe were found during a search of the Wagner
property in twenty sixteen. There are also over eight thousand
recorded statements from interviews with George Wagner who claimed there
really was no issue regarding custody between Jake Wagner and
Hannah Rowdin over their daughter Sophia, and that we know
is just not true. Right, So, with all of this
(22:51):
the Wagners still continue to declare their innocence. Is it
really possible that they did? In facts have nothing to
do with it. Well. Recently, one of the Wagner's lawyers
made statements to the US saying that a loose custody
arrangement between Jake Wagner and Hannah further daughter Sophia was
being formalized by another attorney in Ohio at the time
of the killings, but due to the fact that Hannah
was murdered, the agreement was never formalized, so it's not
(23:13):
permissible in court. I spoke with Deray about her second cousin,
Jake Wagner, to see if we could get any more
information on the custody arrangement between him and Hannah Rodan,
do you know anything about like they were trying to
get custody of Sophia before the murders. I don't know
anything about that, Okay, Yeah, I was just curious, Yeah,
because you hear a lot about that. Yeah, I never heard,
(23:34):
you know, I talked to my aunt a lot that
was never mentioned. So do you think that that is
fabricated as well? If I'm hearing you right, I don't
believe that it has anything to do with it. I
don't believe there was a custody battle. I think that's
another made up lie. What makes you say that because
(23:55):
I never heard anything about it. I mean, somebody did it,
but we don't know who, and we are for sure
it wasn't the Wagner family. It's a tragedy. And most
of the people that I talked to, they're all thinking
it's drug related, something that had to do with drug trafficking.
(24:15):
We don't know. It's who knows. It's a mystery. We
found it strange for a woman who covers her family's
case closely not to know anything about the custody issues
that other family relatives disclose to us before. Even stranger
is something else that was presented at George Wagner's most
(24:36):
recent pre trial hearing Again He's the eldest son. Prosecutors
pointed to a screenshot of a message from Hannah Rodin
to one of her friends. In this message, she's discussing
the Wagner's attempt to force her to sign forged custody documents,
the ones that we've talked about in previous episodes. Now
get this. The screenshot was found on the Wagner family
(24:57):
computer seized during the investigation, and again allegedly the Wagner's
got it by hacking into Hannah wrote In's Facebook account,
the message is nothing short of chilling. It reads and
I quote, I won't sign papers. Ever, it won't happen.
They'll have to kill me first. It does seem clear
(25:23):
that the Wagners were sort of obsessed with custody and
control of Sophia, and in speaking with people close to
the family, this actually wasn't the first time custody became
an issue. Christina Howard's sister, Tabby, was married to George
Wagner for several years. The two had a son together,
but eventually split up. According to Christina, following their divorce,
(25:43):
the Wagner family tried to force Tabby into handing over
custody of their son. This is Christina's recollection of events.
She spoke to Jeff about it. Somehow or another angela
like manipulated her with different papers to sign and stuff,
and they had Tabby finding over the rights and custody
(26:05):
to George. You know, they had money for expensive lawyer,
and Tabby did in and so they had custody plumb
up until you know, they got caught and stuff for
the crimes. Do you think that she was obsessed with
having custody of all of her grandkids? Oh? Yeah, definitely.
(26:25):
Why do you say that? Tabby Like whenever she would
try to reach out to George, like hey, can I
come visit my son? And Angela would get on there
and be like, oh, he's not your son anymore. Would
tell Tabby like, oh, you mighty gave virtul him, but
I'm his real mother because I take care of em,
(26:46):
and all these just nasty things. And Christina told us
that in the aftermath of Tabby and George's custody battle,
Hannah rode In contacted Tabby for advice and how to
deal with their own custody issues with the Wagner's. I
knew that Hannah was struggling to keep custody of Sophia
(27:06):
because she went to her and my sister were pretty close,
and you know, Tabby straight up told her, like, a,
if they present you with papers, do not sign them.
Give them to a lawyer first. Let the lawyer read
it over and proceed from there, because they will try
(27:26):
to steal custody of Sophia. Even if they're trying to
act like they're understanding and all of the swords. Do
not listen to them because they will strew you over.
Christina's account of George Wagner and Tabby's dispute, in addition
to everything we've heard about Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin,
(27:49):
clearly lays out a pattern of deceit and control when
it comes to custody. But when Jeff asked de Ray
about George and Tabby's custody battle, she soundly refuted Christina's claims.
I want your side of this. People say that, like
George had a custody situation where he tried to get
custody of his son Jake, maybe a similar situation. People
(28:09):
are saying that, like Angela was just obsessed with getting
the kids and wanted all the control of the children. Yeah.
I don't believe that. I don't believe that. I know
she loved him, but I don't believe she was obsessed.
I think she was a normal grandmother and then she
was an excellent role model. Well, we don't know all
(28:34):
the details of George Wagner and Tabby's custody case. There
is evidence that the Wagners did deceive Hannah Rodin by
trying to convince her to sign fake custody documents. Here's Stephanie,
followed by Jeff. It seems being locked up in prison
hasn't even stopped the Wagners for one second from trying
to manipulate those closest to them. As we discussed earlier
(28:54):
in September of twenty nineteen, Angela Wagner tried to discuss
case strategy even influences testimony from prison. Prosecutors also claim
that Angela Wagner called her mother Rita Newcome. She's the
one that's accused of forging those custody documents. She called
her several times and basically asked her not to testify
against the family, and also told her how to explain
(29:17):
away the custody documents that she's accused of forging. As
a punishment, a judge suspended Angela Wagner's in jail phone
and mail privileges. Mike Allen told us that this is
just another blow for the defense. Any criminal defense attorney
that is doing their job, and I'm sure every one
of these criminal defense attorneys are doing their job, they
(29:38):
tell their client from day one, do not under any
circumstances discuss the case on the phone. Because you can
guarantee that the conversations are being taped, Prosecutors can use
those conversations if the person is talking about strategy, make
(30:00):
some kind of admission, intimidates witnesses, the recording doesn't lie,
and that could end up to be some pretty strong
evidence against her at the end of the day. George
Wagner has also raised eyebrows for an odd request he
made after five months in prison, he has to be
transferred from general population to solitary confinement. Usually, solitary confinement
(30:24):
is given to a prisoner who either is a threat
to other prisoners or who may be in danger in
the general population. Mike Allen told us that George had
a different reason. His stated reason was that he wanted
to be able to study the Bible in peace. That's
a little unusual when inmates ask for solitary A lot
of times, although they may not say it, they're asking
(30:47):
for that because they've been threatened, and you know, they
want to make sure that they're as safe as they
can be in jail. But when I read that, I
kind of wondered, is that the real reason? I mean,
you know, you just have to wonder what the motivation is.
So how does all this evidence end up? How strong
is the state's case against Billy, Angela Jake and George Wagner.
(31:11):
I'm a criminal defense attorney. I used to be a prosecutor,
and as a criminal defense attorney, you know you never
say never as far as you know your chances in
front of a jury. Having said that, the evidence sure
seems strong, and we don't know all the evidence. All
we know is what's public. So the old adage that
a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich is true. But
(31:35):
smart prosecutors don't indict cases that they don't think they
can win beyond a reasonable doubt. And I think Mike Dwine,
who was in the driver's seat in this thing, there's
no way he would have indicted this if he didn't
think he could prove it, or ultimately someone could prove it.
At the end of the day, let's stop here for
(31:58):
a quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment.
You will fail, So what everybody does, but your jim,
your watch, your yoga pants, they pretend you won't. So
when you miss a day, eat the pancakes, give up
on a workout. You failed. Seriously, what the hell We're Body.
(32:23):
We've been a part of that too, but not anymore
at Body or rejecting perfection and embracing reality, not in
a Pizza Monday kind of way, in a loving your
whole life kind of way. In this workout is fun
and it's okay if I take a week off kind
of way, in an I'm eating healthy and it's okay
if I indulge kind of way, in a I like myself.
(32:46):
No matter what kind of way. Yeah, you will fail,
we all will. But we're not going to let that
be the end. Now. See that we're already making progress.
So let's keep going. We are Body. Start your free
trial at Body dot com. That's Bodi dot com, Only
on CNN. See It Loud The History of Black Television
(33:10):
of five part docuseries celebrating the achievements of black actors
and creators, examining the historical impacts black culture has on
all culture. See It Loud explores the best history of
black television through iconic performances and sitcoms, comedy, drama, unscripted, variety,
and sci fi. Premiering Sunday, July nine at nine pm,
(33:35):
He'll forget about the video game you gave him on
his birthday. Wow, Thanks Grandpa. But he'll never forget how
you invested in his future. What the unst app Wow,
thanks Grandpa. Don't just give them any gift, give them
a gift that can grow with them. Invite grandparents and
(33:56):
family friends to contribute to your child's future. What the
unst app uns is an investment account for kids that
makes it easy to gift funds that can be used
for college tuition, their first home, and more. Just by
sharing the link or include a UNSQR code on party
invitations for birthdays and holidays. For a limited time, download
(34:16):
the unstaff and use the code I Heart fifty at
sign up to receive a fifty dollars bonus when you
fund your account. That's code I Heart fifty when you
sign up at uneest dot coo for a fifty dollars bonus.
See terms and conditions at UNEs dot coo. Curiosity Stream
is the streaming service for people who want to know
(34:38):
more more about our world and beyond. Curiosity Stream has
the best collection of documentary films and TV shows and
now check out Curiosity's new series The Real Wild West.
Rowan Stone magazine says, it's the history of the West.
They usually don't teach you the mythology of the West
left out a lot of the people. The American West
(34:58):
is far more different, far more diverse. He would say,
they've never seen a black cowboy. Well, we've been there,
we've been doing it. I never really learned about these
Hispanic Mexican aspect of the story. This is the history book,
But did you know about these other facts? Watch The
Real Wild West now on Curiosity Stream. Just go to
curiosity stream dot com to sign up or download the
(35:19):
app now. With new titles dropping every week, you'll never
run out of things to watch, and with monthly, annual,
and bundled pricing plans, it's easy to find one that
works for you and your budget. Go to curiosity stream
dot com to satisfy your curiosity and sign up today.
(35:43):
We've been covering this case for over two years, and
in that time we've examined not only the details of
the eight murders themselves, but the multiple theories that have
surrounded them. We looked into the speculation of a drug connection.
Discoveries of the murder scenes are now advancing the theory
killings could be related to a drug cartel. The Rodents
had a pretty sizable crop of marijuana plants on their property,
(36:05):
so you know, there were indications that they were involved
in some drug deals and drug trade with marijuana. We
explored the rumors of smalltown revenge. There had been reports
of scuple with other people in public in his message
and he's talking about I'm going to break his fucking
legs and curb stop his ass. We also investigated a
(36:26):
series of eerily similar killings. We have had a double homicide,
four children left alive. This is very similar to the
Rodent case. And we had heard that there were other
people who were shot Nolan I execution style in their homes.
And when you're looking at the Rodent case and then
you see these other cases in a county that small,
you start asking yourself, what the hell is going on.
(36:48):
It doesn't make sense that this is happening there unless
there is some sort of common denominator. But in the end,
it was some of the people who were closest to
the Rodents that were arrested for orchestrating the brutal, cold
plotted massacre at the center of this case, or members
the Wagner family whom we believe the avalanche will show,
conspired together to kill these ape As we struggled to
(37:13):
make sense of the crimes, we've listened to the impassioned
arguments of family members who insist that their relatives are innocent.
Our family joke is that there's no way that Betty
Crocker and the Dobe Boys could ever go to an
extreme of murder. Somebody did it, but it wasn't. Now
we've heard first person accounts from relatives that support the
(37:36):
primary motive in this case, Hannah and Jake with the
little girl. There was a custody battle and Hannah wasn't
allowing Jake to see her, and it just set him
off to the point where Jake he had made the comments,
you know that he was going to kill her. But
(37:57):
there are some who are simply torn. Ers were arrested,
You had your fifty fifty. You had people that said, yes,
I knew that they did that, and then you've got
people that say, there's no way those people did that.
I don't think anybody would believe that, you know, a
family could have put together such a tactical hit on
(38:18):
another family that they had created life with. It's still
too difficult to accept and too hard to believe. Many
in the Pikedon area believe there is no doubt that
the Wagoners plotted this horrific killing spree. People wanted to
paint the sort of few between the Rodents and Wagoners,
and something like the hatfields of McCoys. Doesn't make sense
(38:39):
to me if they are innocent, because who else would
do that. Whether the Wagoners are innocent or guilty doesn't
change the fact that the lives of eight members of
a revered local family, the Rodents, were taken on April
twenty second, twenty sixteen. Dana Roden, thirty seven year old mother,
(38:59):
a grandmother and nurse living in her brand new home.
Chris Rodin, forty year old, loving father and grandfather. Dana
and Chris's oldest son, twenty year old Frankie Roden, Frankie's fiance,
twenty year old Hannah Gilly, who was in bed with
their six month old baby, Frankie Roden's three year old son,
(39:20):
both of whom were spared. Hannahme Roden, nineteen year old
mother to two year old Sophia and her five day
old newborn Kylie, also spared. Dana and Chris's youngest child,
sixteen year old Chris Junior, who had just gotten his
driver's license, Chris Senior's older brother, forty four year old
Kenneth Roden, father of three, and his cousin, thirty eight
(39:42):
year old Gary Roden, who was staying with Chris Senior
that night. It is horrible to this day and Dana
and her family will never never get to celebrate birthdays,
you know, and have parties and get togethers and barbecues
(40:04):
and stuff like that. It's it's terrible. It just really
hurts my heart. In all this, it's sometimes easy to
forget those whose lives were spared that faithful night, but
who lost everything in the process. The road in children,
it's two families really have been destroyed, and at the
center of that tragedy is you know, are these kids
(40:27):
whose families are torn apart and lost. Sofia is the
one that is losing the most at this point in
her life because she's lost her mom's side of the family,
she's lost her father's side of the family, and she
is in child protective custody where no one knows where
(40:47):
she is. She has lost on both sides. She's lost
both of her families. Because it's supposed to be happy
for her. This is her childhood. The tragic legacy of
the road and murders continues to loom over the town
of Pyton, Ohio. You know, whatever happened that morning on
(41:09):
Union Hill Road, you know it impacted a lot more
than just those people who were killed. I mean, you've
got their family members, and you've got people in that
area are going to remember this forever. This has never
going away. My family was a part of this horrible,
I mean just absolutely awful act. You know that they
(41:33):
destroying this other family completely. They have changed the family's
life for the rest of their life. So but then
you know, I'm like, well, you know ours has changed
as well. You know, we get tortured daily with the
thought of how our family could have done something like this,
(41:54):
and we still have love for them. I do feel
so terrible for the Dents, and I've always wanted to
be able to express how sorry I am. And just
because we still love Angela and Jake doesn't mean that
we aren't sorry for what take done. I get with
(42:18):
trials for Billy, Angela, Jake, and George Wagner potentially just
months away, the residents of the Piketon area sit in anticipation,
awaiting an end to the most gruesome chapter in the
town's history and a conclusion to Ohio's most notorious murder case.
I've been in the system for over fifty years, and
that is extremely rare that you got for people, for
(42:39):
defendants facing the death penalty. What will happen is anyone's
guests if they walk out of that courtroom without any convictions.
I just can't imagine how the rodents go on in
the public too. I mean, how do you go on
not knowing for sure exactly who did this? Oh, it's
going to be broken hearted, It's gonna be broken hearts.
(43:01):
I honestly think that that the wagoners. It's going to
a mistrial. It's searched for the truth, and you know
that old proverb from Shakespeare the truth will out in
the end. I believe that as it applies to this case,
the mystery will be solved. The truth will eventually and
(43:23):
inevitably be discovered, And it looks like that's the way
they're heading. I, like everybody else, want to know. I
want to know how the story is. Reach out to
(43:45):
us on our social media outlets with questions We're on Instagram, Facebook,
and Twitter at piked and Massacre. We look forward to
answering our questions and upcoming episodes. Piked and Massacre is
executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing
and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing
(44:06):
by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The pikedon Massacre is
a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. Since her role as
White House correspondent, Caitlyn Collins has never been afraid to dicty.
(44:29):
She's a reliable, deeply sourced reporter and is always willing
to hold the powerful accountable. On her new CNN show,
The Source with Caitlyn Collins, Caitlin is bringing that tenacious
spirit to primetime. She's chasing the facts, connecting with her
rolodex of sources, and pulling the threads of a story
together right up to the minute she goes live, so
viewers are getting the very latest. The Source with Caitlyn
(44:50):
Collins weeknights at nine pm Eastern only on Sianna. How
long was Neil Armstrong actually on the move? When did
Europe start speaking English? Didn't Marco Polo really go to China?
Curiosity Stream is the streaming service for all things history,
plus science, wildlife and more. What's the real story behind
the Mona, Lisa, We've got that? What caused the collapse
of Rome? We know? Where did we find Mankind's earliest ancestor?
(45:14):
Come find out? From Egypt to Weinstein. Curiosity Stream is
the place for history with monthly, annual, and bundled plans.
Find one for you at curiosity stream dot com. How
Deep does a Mother's Love Run? Now streaming only on Hulu.
Experience a race against time by four mothers who went undercover.
My ex partner abducted our six year old son and
(45:36):
took him out of the country. This was a mother's
worst nightmare, and we'll stop at nothing. I knew something
bad at for the children they love. I was so scared,
and that's when all hell breaks loose. Mother Undercover. I
wanted him to know you mess with the wrong mother.
Now streaming only on Hulu. Search Mother Undercover, Hey California,
(45:58):
listen up, Hey mom My, Papa, my daddy, or extra
Colchians on the freeway right next to speeding cars. Why
are you driving so fast? Please be careful. I my
um ale out there. Slow down, pay attention. How would
you feel follows your family? Be Alert works on an
(46:19):
alert brought to you by Here's a Colchians
How Deep does a Mother's Love Run? Now streaming only
on Hulu. Experience a race against time by four mothers
who went undercover. My ex partner abducted our six year
old son and took him out of the country. This
was a mother's worth nightmare, and we'll stop at nothing.
I knew something bad and for the children they love.
I was so scared, and that's when all hell breaks loose.
(00:21):
Mother Undercover. I wanted him to know you mess with
the wrong mother. Now streaming only on Hulu Search Mother Undercover.
Since her role as White House correspondent, Caitlyn Collins has
never been afraid to dic deep. She's a reliable, deeply
sourced reporter and is always willing to hold the powerful accountable.
On her new CNN show The Source with Caitlyn Collins,
(00:43):
Caitlyn is bringing that tenacious spirit to prime time. She's
chasing the facts, connecting with her rolodex of sources, and
pulling the threads of a story together right up to
the minute she goes live, so viewers are getting the
very latest. The Source with Caitlyn Collins weeknights at nine
pm Eastern only on CIA. He'll forget about the video
game you gave him on his birthday. Wow, Thanks Grandpa.
(01:05):
But he'll never forget how you invested in his future
with the unstapp. Wow, Thanks Grandpa. The unstap makes it
easy for grandparents and family friends to give funds to
a child's investment account for a limited time. Download the
uns stapp and use the code I Heart fifty at
sign up to receive a fifty dollar bonus when you
find your account. That's code I Heart fifty when you
sign up at u n est dot coo for fifty
(01:28):
dollars bonus. See terms and conditions at unest dot coo.
How long was Neil Armstrong actually on the Moon? When
did Europe start speaking English? Did Marco Polo really go
to China? Curiosity Stream is the streaming service for all
things history, plus science, wildlife and more. What's the real
story behind the Mona Lisa, We've got that. What caused
the collapse of Rome? We know? Where? Did we find
(01:49):
Mankind's earliest ancestor? Come find out? From Egypt to Weinstein.
Curiosity Stream is the place for history with monthly, annual,
and bundled plans. Find one for you curiosity stream dot com.
Welcome to the piked to Massacre a production of iHeartRadio
and Katie Studios Episode eight, Truth Be Revealed. Over the
(02:12):
course of seven episodes, we have examined the details of
the murders of eight members of the Roden family, the
investigation that was launched in their wake, and what led
up to the arrests of six members of the Wagner family.
Now we're going to look at where the case stands
and what lies ahead next week's episode, Burning Questions. I'm
Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie
(02:34):
Ledecker and Jeff Shane. When we left off last week,
it was June twenty six, twenty nineteen, and Frederica Wagner
was in the defendant's chair in a Pike County courtroom.
She was facing charges of obstruction of justice and perjury
and connection with the Roden murders. Here's Frederica's niece, Derey,
defending her aunt's claims. First, the prosecutors falsely believed the
(02:57):
bulletproof best were purchased before the road and homicides. Both
sides know that it is not true. They were in
fact purchased on May the seventh, twenty and sixteen, fifteen
days after the day of the homicides. So that's proven.
We know that there's like receipts, right, yep, got receipt Scott.
(03:18):
We have everything. Second, she guessed and thought that she
bought them from Amazon. Now why they made a big
deal about what what origin? They came off the internet?
She ordered him off the internet. Whenever you go on
the Internet, a bunch of places come up. Usually Amazon
(03:40):
is the first thing that comes up. She did that
a lot, but they made a big deal about it.
So they went back through her books and they found
out that she did buy them, but it wasn't from Amazon.
It was eBay. But criminal defense attorney Mike Allen told
Jeff that Frederica State are a much bigger deal than
(04:01):
deray things. Well, obviously, when you have a situation like
this and someone involved with the people that are charged
makes a purchase of two bulletproof fast, whether it's from
eBay or Amazon, it's something that the prosecution would be
interested in. And you know, she apparently was before the
grand jury when she misrepresented, if you will, where she
(04:25):
bought these things from. And it's relevant and also too,
I think it would be fair to say that the
prosecution probably wanted this put on it, these charges put
on her to have a little bit of leverage with
her too. Do you think that her explanation of just saying, oh,
I don't remember, I got it confused as an attorney,
do you think that makes someone look more guilty? Yeah,
(04:47):
it does, especially something like this. And I know she's elderly,
but boy, she should certainly seems like she's pretty sharp.
But it's a rather big event. In most people's lives,
if they purchased bulletproof vest online or anyway you purchased them,
that you would think that you would remember where you
purchased them from. So yeah, it doesn't make her look
(05:09):
good at all. Ultimately, Frederico Wagner's lawyer filed receipts that
proved she made the purchases fifteen days after the slayings.
This led the defense team to turn over potential evidence
as required to the prosecution, too late to meet the
criteria for a speedy trial. They dismissed the charges against
(05:30):
Frederico Wagner, while reserving the right to charge her again.
Mike Allen broke down what all this means with respect
to the Ohio Speedy trial statute. It's generally you have
to bring a felony case within two hundred and seventy
days from the indictment. I think the prosecution was running
out of time, so strategically, I think they decided to
(05:51):
dismiss it with the option and the right to refile
it again if that becomes necessary, so she could get
charged with the same crimes again. Oh yeah, they were
dismissed without prejudice, which means that the state can refile
them at a later date. But it seems that Frederico
Wagner doesn't foresee that happening. Here. She is speaking to
(06:13):
the press after the hearing. Trust in the Lord with
all your heart, lean not to your own understanding, in
all your ways. Acknowledge Him and he will direct your path.
And as my attorney will tell you, it was dismissed
because I was innocent. They had no evidence against me.
I never lied about anything. Frederico Wagner's freedom validates what
(06:37):
Deray has believed all along. She has never in her
life done anything wrong. She's not capable of it. And
you know, if she thought that her kids would have
done something bad, she would have recommended that they turned
themselves in for anything. I mean she she lives by
(07:02):
what she says she lives by, which is what well.
She gives all the glory to God. Angela, Billy Jake,
and George Wagner were charged with aggravated murder. Angela Wagner's mother,
Rita Joe Nukam, and Billy Wagner's mother, Frederica were both
(07:23):
charged with obstruction of justice and perjury. Nucombe was also
charged with forgery. All six of them pled not guilty,
and our justice system presumes innocence until guilt is proven.
But one thing that doesn't help Frederica Wagner's case is
a revelation by the prosecution at a pre trial hearing
for her son Billy in twenty twenty, The States submitted
(07:46):
evidence showing that the night before Frederica testified before the
grand jury in twenty eighteen, she had searched the Internet
for information about penalties for perjury. Here's our anonymous Wagner
family relative. She shared her thoughts with Jeff. Do you
think that his mom, Billy's mom, Frederica, Do you think
she had any involvement? I believe that I believe she
(08:07):
could have. Yet I believe that she definitely. Uh. I
don't believe she try to stop it, you know, I
don't believe that she. I believe it's anything she probably
definitely she would have encouraged it and her story should
do what he did. Others like Roden family friend Stefane,
(08:28):
thinks that Frederico wasn't just involved in the murders, but
could possibly have orchestrated the whole thing. I don't take
her for a dumb woman at all. She's a businesswoman.
She's probably shrewd. She's the head the monarch, you know,
so the monarch is usually the one that that has
their thumb on everybody. She wanted to control over everything,
(08:51):
seems to me. Like to investigative journalist Jodi Barr, the
alleged involvement of Frederico Wagner up ends convened of who
actually could be capable of being involved in murder. I
think this case, if it ended today as it is alleged,
I don't think there is anybody on this planet that
could look at those people and say, those people look
(09:14):
like a family who could swatter eight human beings if
you ever thought you knew what a mass murderer looked like.
I think this case in Pike County is showing you
you have no idea. So here we are four years later.
Two of the six defendants are free and four others
are in prison facing death penalty charges, accused of killing
(09:36):
eight members of the Roden family. Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff.
As it stands now, the trials for Billy, Angela, Jake,
and George Wagner are slated to begin in the next
few months. Now. To really understand this case and where
it stands in what's to come, we'll have to examine
some of the most important points. In the five thousand
pages of discovery documents that list the prosecution's evidence. There
(09:58):
are more than three written thirty two thousand files of
evidence in this case. One of the exhibits in the
prosecution's arsenal is related to Billy Wagner in his copy
of the nineteen ninety nine movie The Boondock Saints. The
film is about two brothers in Boston who exact a
form of vigilanty justice by murdering mobsters and other criminals.
It's extremely violent and over the top, but the big
(10:19):
takeaway for this case is that the brothers in the
film use silencers. On their guns, a method that members
of the Wagner family are accused of using to execute
the Rodents. As we covered in the last episode, a
homemade silencer was discovered at a farm once owned by
Jake and George Wagner, but Deray thinks the connection is
tenuous at best. I read deck and I had to laugh.
(10:44):
I had to laugh so hard. Okay, so you have
to remember that this was a very organized, brilliantly done execution.
This is something that you wouldn't learn on a DVD.
(11:05):
Somebody with military background, Navy seals. I mean, whoever did
it was was brilliant. They're professional. These people are not
professional killers. Mike Gallant told Jeff that the DVD could
(11:25):
be a building block in the state's case. You can't
watch a movie and learn how to wipe out an
entire family. That seems like a stretch. What is your
take on that. Yeah, I don't think they could introduce
it for the proposition that that's how the Wagner's learned
how to do that. I think if the state introduced
it or attempted to get it introduced, it would just
(11:47):
be kind of peripheral to like, hey, you know, somebody
in that family watched that movie or ordered that movie,
or bought that movie, and it's a movie about vigilante justice.
But I would certainly cry at least because apparently in
this case, the allegation is silencers were used, and they
were used in that movie as well, So it would
(12:09):
be one piece of evidence that they could add on
to other evidence. It would be a piece of evidence
if admitted that they could talk about in closing arguments. So,
while not determinative in any way, shape or form, it
is evidence that could be helpful to the state. There's
(12:29):
a mountain of other evidence the prosecution plans on using.
One that stands out is an Excel spreadsheet that contains
five hundred and nineteen entries of messages about child custody.
I spoke with my Gallon about it. Another piece of
evidence that's been talked about are these Excel spreadsheets. Apparently
they had hundreds of entries of cataloging the messages about
(12:50):
child custody and Facebook screenshots regarding it, what does that
tell you, Well, it tells me that could be part
of the motive in this case. And it's pretty strong
evidence of motive if they're keeping all these things and screenshots,
and it seems that they were kind of obsessed with
his desire to get custody and control. That would be circumstantial,
(13:13):
but circumstantial evidence sometimes can be very strong evidence. Just
because evidence is circumstantial doesn't mean that it's not good
evidence and strong evidence. But you know, it's like you're
dropping pebbles into a pond. Every little pebble makes a ripple,
and you know, you build on those things and at
(13:34):
the end of the day, at the prosecution does it right.
Every little bit helps with respect to building a case.
The discovery documents also include information about a person that
some speculate could be an informant. Jodie Barr told us
about trying to track down this source. The name of
the informant has not been published, which is why it's
(13:55):
bleeped in his interview. The only thing I know is
that was a name given very early on who I
was told did business with Chris Rodin. I was never
able to even find that this person exists. I guess
they did. This person really does exist. But when I
was given a list of names of people who could
have potentially either been involved in this, knew about this.
(14:19):
This is one person I tried to track down and
find over in Sciota County, which is just across the
line from Pike, and I was never able to find
this person. But I was told that this person knew
Chris Senior intimately as far as you know, they were
together a lot, and they were in some business ventures together.
(14:41):
But again I was never able to find this person
or to verify anything that was ever told me about them.
Prosecutors for the case claim another confidential informant told them
of a specific meeting at Frederico Wagner's home. It occurred
with the other accused family members and allegedly include to
talk of quote taking revenge on a special agent then
(15:03):
Attorney General Mike Dawine, and Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader.
The revenge was allegedly planned if her family was arrested.
Jodie Barr dissected these claims with Jeff. It just seems
so careless that the people accused of this would be
bringing outsiders into a home, although we don't know who
(15:25):
the confidential informant is, but that they would risk getting
caught if they were so skillful in pulling this off
that they would bring outsiders in to have discussions like
this where they're number one admitting it essentially, but secularly,
you're talking about taking hits out on the chief law
enforcer in Pike County and the chief law enforce for
(15:46):
the state of Ohio. But that's an interesting point that
it doesn't really compute that if they were like ninjas
and they could do this of elaborate crime, why would
they be so sloppy then to have these conversations with
other people. When I see confidential informant in this sentence
meant a part of he goes. I wonder if one
of the Wagoners has rolled over and is helping this
(16:07):
investigation still something I know there have been some plea
deals already made here, some charges dismissed. But you've got
to wonder who is this informant because if it's a
member of the Wagner family, and I think that's a
twist no one saw coming. Let's stop here for a
(16:31):
quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment. Like
many of us, you might think identity theft will never
happen to you, but consider this. There's a new identity
theft victim every three seconds in the US. That's over
fifteen million people by the end of this year equal
to the populations of New York, Los Angeles, and Chicago combined.
(16:53):
Even worse, identity theft victims often don't even know they're victims.
That's why LifeLock Identity theft protection help to identify threats,
even the ones that don't show up on a credit report,
like data breaches, fraudulent bank transactions, loan in credit card applications,
and crimes committed in your name. If your identity is stolen,
your own dedicated LifeLock US based restoration specialist will work
(17:17):
to fix it. No one can prevent all identity theft,
but LifeLock protects you in ways that you simply can't
on your own. Save up to twenty five percent your
first year at LifeLock dot com slash iHeart. That's LifeLock
dot com slash iHeart to save up to twenty five percent.
Identity theft protection starts here. You will fail, so what
(17:39):
everybody does, but your jim your watch, your yoga pants.
They pretend you won't. So when you miss a day,
eat the pancakes, give up on a workout, you failed. Seriously,
what the hell we're body? We've been a part of
that too, but not anymore at Body or rejecting perfection
(18:01):
and embracing reality, not in a Pizza Monday kind of way,
in a loving your whole life kind of way, in
a this workout is fun and it's okay if I
take a week off kind of way, in an I'm
eating healthy and it's okay if I indulge kind of way,
in a I like myself. No matter what kind of way. Yeah,
(18:22):
you will fail, we all will. But we're not going
to let that be the end and see that we're
already making progress. So let's keep going. We are Body.
Start your free trial at Body dot com. That's Bodi
dot com. Only on CNN. See It Loud The History
of Black Television of five part docuseries celebrating the achievements
(18:45):
of black actors and creators, examining the historical impacts black
culture has on all culture. See It Loud explores the
best history of black television through iconic performances and sitcoms,
comedy drama, Unscared, Did Variety, and sci fi, premiering Sunday
to Lie nine at nine pm. He'll forget about the
(19:08):
video game you gave him on his birthday. Wow. Thanks Grandpa,
but he'll never forget how you invested in his future
with the un stapp. Wow, thanks, Grandpa. Don't just give
them any gift, give them a gift that can grow
with them. Invite grandparents and family friends to contribute to
(19:30):
your child's future with the un stapp. Unst is an
investment account for kids that makes it easy to gift
funds that can be used for college tuition, their first home,
and more. Just by sharing the link or include a
UNSQR code on party invitations for birthdays and holidays. For
a limited time, download the uns stapp and use the
(19:50):
code I Heart fifty at sign up to receive a
fifty dollar bonus when you fund your account. That's code
I Heart fifty when you sign up at une st
dot zo for fifty dollars bonus. See terms and conditions
at uns dot coo. The discovery documents also have two thousand,
(20:16):
nine hundred and eighteen pages related to DNA evidence. Mike
Allen spoke to us about the role DNA could play
in the case. I can tell you from dealing with
DNA evidence both as a prosecutor and as a defense attorney.
That's not good news for the defense If they've got
almost three thousand pages of DNA evidence, evidence that would
(20:38):
have been sent to the lab and comes back, they've
got to have something. I mean, I would be shocked
if they didn't have some credible DNA evidence against at
least one of these defendants, probably more of them. That's
bad news for the defense. There's just no way of
getting around it. Because DNA evidence, if extracted proper and
(21:00):
analyze properly, it's pretty much lights out if they did
it correctly. So I think that's problematic for the defense.
Here's Stephanie, followed by Jeff. In addition, the report also
lists one thousand, one hundred and seventy crime scene photos,
cyber forensic reports of the Wagners, their cell phones and
(21:22):
their computers, and hundreds of pages citing reference to the
recovery of firearms and ballistic testing. In fact, at the
pre trial hearing for George Wagner just a few weeks ago,
we got a glimpse into some of the evidence they have.
So this hearing was for emotion. The defense was making
to get George Wagner, the eldest son, released from prison
on bond. In response, the prosecution laid out some of
(21:45):
the evidence they have against George Wagner, basically as an
argument to keep George behind bars. One of the lead
detectives on the case testified that he and his team
have real ballistic evidence connecting firearms used in the homicides
with guns believed to be owned by the Wagners, including
a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty caliber handgun,
(22:06):
and a thirty caliber gun. Prosecutors also pointed to evidence
that shoeprints from the exact same shoes purchased at Walmart
by the Wagners to allegedly frame Dana Rodin's brother, you remember,
James Manley, were found in dried blood at two of
the crime scenes, and yet this in fact receipts for
those exact same shoes. There are a very specific Walmart
(22:29):
athletic shoe were found during a search of the Wagner
property in twenty sixteen. There are also over eight thousand
recorded statements from interviews with George Wagner who claimed there
really was no issue regarding custody between Jake Wagner and
Hannah Rowdin over their daughter Sophia, and that we know
is just not true. Right, So, with all of this
(22:51):
the Wagners still continue to declare their innocence. Is it
really possible that they did? In facts have nothing to
do with it. Well. Recently, one of the Wagner's lawyers
made statements to the US saying that a loose custody
arrangement between Jake Wagner and Hannah further daughter Sophia was
being formalized by another attorney in Ohio at the time
of the killings, but due to the fact that Hannah
was murdered, the agreement was never formalized, so it's not
(23:13):
permissible in court. I spoke with Deray about her second cousin,
Jake Wagner, to see if we could get any more
information on the custody arrangement between him and Hannah Rodan,
do you know anything about like they were trying to
get custody of Sophia before the murders. I don't know
anything about that, Okay, Yeah, I was just curious, Yeah,
because you hear a lot about that. Yeah, I never heard,
(23:34):
you know, I talked to my aunt a lot that
was never mentioned. So do you think that that is
fabricated as well? If I'm hearing you right, I don't
believe that it has anything to do with it. I
don't believe there was a custody battle. I think that's
another made up lie. What makes you say that because
(23:55):
I never heard anything about it. I mean, somebody did it,
but we don't know who, and we are for sure
it wasn't the Wagner family. It's a tragedy. And most
of the people that I talked to, they're all thinking
it's drug related, something that had to do with drug trafficking.
(24:15):
We don't know. It's who knows. It's a mystery. We
found it strange for a woman who covers her family's
case closely not to know anything about the custody issues
that other family relatives disclose to us before. Even stranger
is something else that was presented at George Wagner's most
(24:36):
recent pre trial hearing Again He's the eldest son. Prosecutors
pointed to a screenshot of a message from Hannah Rodin
to one of her friends. In this message, she's discussing
the Wagner's attempt to force her to sign forged custody documents,
the ones that we've talked about in previous episodes. Now
get this. The screenshot was found on the Wagner family
(24:57):
computer seized during the investigation, and again allegedly the Wagner's
got it by hacking into Hannah wrote In's Facebook account,
the message is nothing short of chilling. It reads and
I quote, I won't sign papers. Ever, it won't happen.
They'll have to kill me first. It does seem clear
(25:23):
that the Wagners were sort of obsessed with custody and
control of Sophia, and in speaking with people close to
the family, this actually wasn't the first time custody became
an issue. Christina Howard's sister, Tabby, was married to George
Wagner for several years. The two had a son together,
but eventually split up. According to Christina, following their divorce,
(25:43):
the Wagner family tried to force Tabby into handing over
custody of their son. This is Christina's recollection of events.
She spoke to Jeff about it. Somehow or another angela
like manipulated her with different papers to sign and stuff,
and they had Tabby finding over the rights and custody
(26:05):
to George. You know, they had money for expensive lawyer,
and Tabby did in and so they had custody plumb
up until you know, they got caught and stuff for
the crimes. Do you think that she was obsessed with
having custody of all of her grandkids? Oh? Yeah, definitely.
(26:25):
Why do you say that? Tabby Like whenever she would
try to reach out to George, like hey, can I
come visit my son? And Angela would get on there
and be like, oh, he's not your son anymore. Would
tell Tabby like, oh, you mighty gave virtul him, but
I'm his real mother because I take care of em,
(26:46):
and all these just nasty things. And Christina told us
that in the aftermath of Tabby and George's custody battle,
Hannah rode In contacted Tabby for advice and how to
deal with their own custody issues with the Wagner's. I
knew that Hannah was struggling to keep custody of Sophia
(27:06):
because she went to her and my sister were pretty close,
and you know, Tabby straight up told her, like, a,
if they present you with papers, do not sign them.
Give them to a lawyer first. Let the lawyer read
it over and proceed from there, because they will try
(27:26):
to steal custody of Sophia. Even if they're trying to
act like they're understanding and all of the swords. Do
not listen to them because they will strew you over.
Christina's account of George Wagner and Tabby's dispute, in addition
to everything we've heard about Jake Wagner and Hannah Rodin,
(27:49):
clearly lays out a pattern of deceit and control when
it comes to custody. But when Jeff asked de Ray
about George and Tabby's custody battle, she soundly refuted Christina's claims.
I want your side of this. People say that, like
George had a custody situation where he tried to get
custody of his son Jake, maybe a similar situation. People
(28:09):
are saying that, like Angela was just obsessed with getting
the kids and wanted all the control of the children. Yeah.
I don't believe that. I don't believe that. I know
she loved him, but I don't believe she was obsessed.
I think she was a normal grandmother and then she
was an excellent role model. Well, we don't know all
(28:34):
the details of George Wagner and Tabby's custody case. There
is evidence that the Wagners did deceive Hannah Rodin by
trying to convince her to sign fake custody documents. Here's Stephanie,
followed by Jeff. It seems being locked up in prison
hasn't even stopped the Wagners for one second from trying
to manipulate those closest to them. As we discussed earlier
(28:54):
in September of twenty nineteen, Angela Wagner tried to discuss
case strategy even influences testimony from prison. Prosecutors also claim
that Angela Wagner called her mother Rita Newcome. She's the
one that's accused of forging those custody documents. She called
her several times and basically asked her not to testify
against the family, and also told her how to explain
(29:17):
away the custody documents that she's accused of forging. As
a punishment, a judge suspended Angela Wagner's in jail phone
and mail privileges. Mike Allen told us that this is
just another blow for the defense. Any criminal defense attorney
that is doing their job, and I'm sure every one
of these criminal defense attorneys are doing their job, they
(29:38):
tell their client from day one, do not under any
circumstances discuss the case on the phone. Because you can
guarantee that the conversations are being taped, Prosecutors can use
those conversations if the person is talking about strategy, make
(30:00):
some kind of admission, intimidates witnesses, the recording doesn't lie,
and that could end up to be some pretty strong
evidence against her at the end of the day. George
Wagner has also raised eyebrows for an odd request he
made after five months in prison, he has to be
transferred from general population to solitary confinement. Usually, solitary confinement
(30:24):
is given to a prisoner who either is a threat
to other prisoners or who may be in danger in
the general population. Mike Allen told us that George had
a different reason. His stated reason was that he wanted
to be able to study the Bible in peace. That's
a little unusual when inmates ask for solitary A lot
of times, although they may not say it, they're asking
(30:47):
for that because they've been threatened, and you know, they
want to make sure that they're as safe as they
can be in jail. But when I read that, I
kind of wondered, is that the real reason? I mean,
you know, you just have to wonder what the motivation is.
So how does all this evidence end up? How strong
is the state's case against Billy, Angela Jake and George Wagner.
(31:11):
I'm a criminal defense attorney. I used to be a prosecutor,
and as a criminal defense attorney, you know you never
say never as far as you know your chances in
front of a jury. Having said that, the evidence sure
seems strong, and we don't know all the evidence. All
we know is what's public. So the old adage that
a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich is true. But
(31:35):
smart prosecutors don't indict cases that they don't think they
can win beyond a reasonable doubt. And I think Mike Dwine,
who was in the driver's seat in this thing, there's
no way he would have indicted this if he didn't
think he could prove it, or ultimately someone could prove it.
At the end of the day, let's stop here for
(31:58):
a quick commercial break. We'll be back in a moment.
You will fail, So what everybody does, but your jim,
your watch, your yoga pants, they pretend you won't. So
when you miss a day, eat the pancakes, give up
on a workout. You failed. Seriously, what the hell We're Body.
(32:23):
We've been a part of that too, but not anymore
at Body or rejecting perfection and embracing reality, not in
a Pizza Monday kind of way, in a loving your
whole life kind of way. In this workout is fun
and it's okay if I take a week off kind
of way, in an I'm eating healthy and it's okay
if I indulge kind of way, in a I like myself.
(32:46):
No matter what kind of way. Yeah, you will fail,
we all will. But we're not going to let that
be the end. Now. See that we're already making progress.
So let's keep going. We are Body. Start your free
trial at Body dot com. That's Bodi dot com, Only
on CNN. See It Loud The History of Black Television
(33:10):
of five part docuseries celebrating the achievements of black actors
and creators, examining the historical impacts black culture has on
all culture. See It Loud explores the best history of
black television through iconic performances and sitcoms, comedy, drama, unscripted, variety,
and sci fi. Premiering Sunday, July nine at nine pm,
(33:35):
He'll forget about the video game you gave him on
his birthday. Wow, Thanks Grandpa. But he'll never forget how
you invested in his future. What the unst app Wow,
thanks Grandpa. Don't just give them any gift, give them
a gift that can grow with them. Invite grandparents and
(33:56):
family friends to contribute to your child's future. What the
unst app uns is an investment account for kids that
makes it easy to gift funds that can be used
for college tuition, their first home, and more. Just by
sharing the link or include a UNSQR code on party
invitations for birthdays and holidays. For a limited time, download
(34:16):
the unstaff and use the code I Heart fifty at
sign up to receive a fifty dollars bonus when you
fund your account. That's code I Heart fifty when you
sign up at uneest dot coo for a fifty dollars bonus.
See terms and conditions at UNEs dot coo. Curiosity Stream
is the streaming service for people who want to know
(34:38):
more more about our world and beyond. Curiosity Stream has
the best collection of documentary films and TV shows and
now check out Curiosity's new series The Real Wild West.
Rowan Stone magazine says, it's the history of the West.
They usually don't teach you the mythology of the West
left out a lot of the people. The American West
(34:58):
is far more different, far more diverse. He would say,
they've never seen a black cowboy. Well, we've been there,
we've been doing it. I never really learned about these
Hispanic Mexican aspect of the story. This is the history book,
But did you know about these other facts? Watch The
Real Wild West now on Curiosity Stream. Just go to
curiosity stream dot com to sign up or download the
(35:19):
app now. With new titles dropping every week, you'll never
run out of things to watch, and with monthly, annual,
and bundled pricing plans, it's easy to find one that
works for you and your budget. Go to curiosity stream
dot com to satisfy your curiosity and sign up today.
(35:43):
We've been covering this case for over two years, and
in that time we've examined not only the details of
the eight murders themselves, but the multiple theories that have
surrounded them. We looked into the speculation of a drug connection.
Discoveries of the murder scenes are now advancing the theory
killings could be related to a drug cartel. The Rodents
had a pretty sizable crop of marijuana plants on their property,
(36:05):
so you know, there were indications that they were involved
in some drug deals and drug trade with marijuana. We
explored the rumors of smalltown revenge. There had been reports
of scuple with other people in public in his message
and he's talking about I'm going to break his fucking
legs and curb stop his ass. We also investigated a
(36:26):
series of eerily similar killings. We have had a double homicide,
four children left alive. This is very similar to the
Rodent case. And we had heard that there were other
people who were shot Nolan I execution style in their homes.
And when you're looking at the Rodent case and then
you see these other cases in a county that small,
you start asking yourself, what the hell is going on.
(36:48):
It doesn't make sense that this is happening there unless
there is some sort of common denominator. But in the end,
it was some of the people who were closest to
the Rodents that were arrested for orchestrating the brutal, cold
plotted massacre at the center of this case, or members
the Wagner family whom we believe the avalanche will show,
conspired together to kill these ape As we struggled to
(37:13):
make sense of the crimes, we've listened to the impassioned
arguments of family members who insist that their relatives are innocent.
Our family joke is that there's no way that Betty
Crocker and the Dobe Boys could ever go to an
extreme of murder. Somebody did it, but it wasn't. Now
we've heard first person accounts from relatives that support the
(37:36):
primary motive in this case, Hannah and Jake with the
little girl. There was a custody battle and Hannah wasn't
allowing Jake to see her, and it just set him
off to the point where Jake he had made the comments,
you know that he was going to kill her. But
(37:57):
there are some who are simply torn. Ers were arrested,
You had your fifty fifty. You had people that said, yes,
I knew that they did that, and then you've got
people that say, there's no way those people did that.
I don't think anybody would believe that, you know, a
family could have put together such a tactical hit on
(38:18):
another family that they had created life with. It's still
too difficult to accept and too hard to believe. Many
in the Pikedon area believe there is no doubt that
the Wagoners plotted this horrific killing spree. People wanted to
paint the sort of few between the Rodents and Wagoners,
and something like the hatfields of McCoys. Doesn't make sense
(38:39):
to me if they are innocent, because who else would
do that. Whether the Wagoners are innocent or guilty doesn't
change the fact that the lives of eight members of
a revered local family, the Rodents, were taken on April
twenty second, twenty sixteen. Dana Roden, thirty seven year old mother,
(38:59):
a grandmother and nurse living in her brand new home.
Chris Rodin, forty year old, loving father and grandfather. Dana
and Chris's oldest son, twenty year old Frankie Roden, Frankie's fiance,
twenty year old Hannah Gilly, who was in bed with
their six month old baby, Frankie Roden's three year old son,
(39:20):
both of whom were spared. Hannahme Roden, nineteen year old
mother to two year old Sophia and her five day
old newborn Kylie, also spared. Dana and Chris's youngest child,
sixteen year old Chris Junior, who had just gotten his
driver's license, Chris Senior's older brother, forty four year old
Kenneth Roden, father of three, and his cousin, thirty eight
(39:42):
year old Gary Roden, who was staying with Chris Senior
that night. It is horrible to this day and Dana
and her family will never never get to celebrate birthdays,
you know, and have parties and get togethers and barbecues
(40:04):
and stuff like that. It's it's terrible. It just really
hurts my heart. In all this, it's sometimes easy to
forget those whose lives were spared that faithful night, but
who lost everything in the process. The road in children,
it's two families really have been destroyed, and at the
center of that tragedy is you know, are these kids
(40:27):
whose families are torn apart and lost. Sofia is the
one that is losing the most at this point in
her life because she's lost her mom's side of the family,
she's lost her father's side of the family, and she
is in child protective custody where no one knows where
(40:47):
she is. She has lost on both sides. She's lost
both of her families. Because it's supposed to be happy
for her. This is her childhood. The tragic legacy of
the road and murders continues to loom over the town
of Pyton, Ohio. You know, whatever happened that morning on
(41:09):
Union Hill Road, you know it impacted a lot more
than just those people who were killed. I mean, you've
got their family members, and you've got people in that
area are going to remember this forever. This has never
going away. My family was a part of this horrible,
I mean just absolutely awful act. You know that they
(41:33):
destroying this other family completely. They have changed the family's
life for the rest of their life. So but then
you know, I'm like, well, you know ours has changed
as well. You know, we get tortured daily with the
thought of how our family could have done something like this,
(41:54):
and we still have love for them. I do feel
so terrible for the Dents, and I've always wanted to
be able to express how sorry I am. And just
because we still love Angela and Jake doesn't mean that
we aren't sorry for what take done. I get with
(42:18):
trials for Billy, Angela, Jake, and George Wagner potentially just
months away, the residents of the Piketon area sit in anticipation,
awaiting an end to the most gruesome chapter in the
town's history and a conclusion to Ohio's most notorious murder case.
I've been in the system for over fifty years, and
that is extremely rare that you got for people, for
(42:39):
defendants facing the death penalty. What will happen is anyone's
guests if they walk out of that courtroom without any convictions.
I just can't imagine how the rodents go on in
the public too. I mean, how do you go on
not knowing for sure exactly who did this? Oh, it's
going to be broken hearted, It's gonna be broken hearts.
(43:01):
I honestly think that that the wagoners. It's going to
a mistrial. It's searched for the truth, and you know
that old proverb from Shakespeare the truth will out in
the end. I believe that as it applies to this case,
the mystery will be solved. The truth will eventually and
(43:23):
inevitably be discovered, And it looks like that's the way
they're heading. I, like everybody else, want to know. I
want to know how the story is. Reach out to
(43:45):
us on our social media outlets with questions We're on Instagram, Facebook,
and Twitter at piked and Massacre. We look forward to
answering our questions and upcoming episodes. Piked and Massacre is
executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing
and sound designed by executive producer Jared Aston. Additional producing
(44:06):
by Jeff Shane and Andrew Becker. The pikedon Massacre is
a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows. Since her role as
White House correspondent, Caitlyn Collins has never been afraid to dicty.
(44:29):
She's a reliable, deeply sourced reporter and is always willing
to hold the powerful accountable. On her new CNN show,
The Source with Caitlyn Collins, Caitlin is bringing that tenacious
spirit to primetime. She's chasing the facts, connecting with her
rolodex of sources, and pulling the threads of a story
together right up to the minute she goes live, so
viewers are getting the very latest. The Source with Caitlyn
(44:50):
Collins weeknights at nine pm Eastern only on Sianna. How
long was Neil Armstrong actually on the move? When did
Europe start speaking English? Didn't Marco Polo really go to China?
Curiosity Stream is the streaming service for all things history,
plus science, wildlife and more. What's the real story behind
the Mona, Lisa, We've got that? What caused the collapse
of Rome? We know? Where did we find Mankind's earliest ancestor?
(45:14):
Come find out? From Egypt to Weinstein. Curiosity Stream is
the place for history with monthly, annual, and bundled plans.
Find one for you at curiosity stream dot com. How
Deep does a Mother's Love Run? Now streaming only on Hulu.
Experience a race against time by four mothers who went undercover.
My ex partner abducted our six year old son and
(45:36):
took him out of the country. This was a mother's
worst nightmare, and we'll stop at nothing. I knew something
bad at for the children they love. I was so scared,
and that's when all hell breaks loose. Mother Undercover. I
wanted him to know you mess with the wrong mother.
Now streaming only on Hulu. Search Mother Undercover, Hey California,
(45:58):
listen up, Hey mom My, Papa, my daddy, or extra
Colchians on the freeway right next to speeding cars. Why
are you driving so fast? Please be careful. I my
um ale out there. Slow down, pay attention. How would
you feel follows your family? Be Alert works on an
(46:19):
alert brought to you by Here's a Colchians
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.