May 26, 2021 • 52 mins
In episode three, we focus on the impact that Jake Wagner’s confession could have on his mother, father and older brother. Additionally, we unpack the current state of their trials and the future proceedings that will decide the fate of the family at the center of Ohio's biggest criminal investigation. Will they ultimately protect each other or will it become... Wagner vs. Wagner?
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Find one for you at curiosity stream dot com. Welcome
to the Piked and Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and
Katie Studios. I gotta tell you from kind of a
visceral standpoint, when I heard the news that this kid
had rolled over on this case, one thing that kind
(02:18):
of came to mind for me is, you know, I
kind of envisioned his mother in almost a mob Barker
kind of way, that she's kind of the puppet master
that's controlling everything. He's sitting there all along, and suddenly
(02:38):
he has this lucid moment where he's out from under
that thob and he realizes, I'm going to get the
needle for all of this. This is the Piked and
Massacre Returned to Pike County Season two, Episode three, Wagner
(03:00):
Versus Wagner. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie
Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. On April twenty second,
twenty twenty one, Jake Wagner pleaded guilty to eight aggravated
murder charges in the Rodent family massacre. As part of
his plea deal, he implicated his mother, Angela Wagner, father
Billy Wagner, and brother George Wagner as co conspirators in
(03:23):
the killings. He's also agreeing to testify against his parents
and brother, who are also charged in these murders. Here's
reporter Anteinette Levy. I don't believe anybody knew he was
going to do this, so it's it's a pretty stunning development.
To see Jake Wagner, the youngest of the entire family,
who would you would think would be, you know, maybe
(03:45):
the most pliable in some respects because he is the youngest.
But to see him just break away from his family,
I don't know, it's it's pretty interesting. The significance of
Jake Wagner folding on his family cannot be overstated. But
what does it mean moving forward? Criminal defense attorney Mike
Allen told Stephanie that it could signal an impending legal
(04:05):
chess match in terms of Jake Wagner's admission of guilt,
I'm just curious about what that means altogether. He's confessed
to killing five of the eight rodents. Personally, is he
trying to save himself or trying to save his family?
You know, obviously, you know if he did five out
of eight, you still have three left, and you know
(04:25):
it'll come out who who actually did the killing on
those other three, But it was probably a strategic move
on the prosecutor's part not to let that out yet.
And you know a prosecutor is not going to show
his cards, or in this case, she Angie when't. She's
got three other defendants to try, so they're still going
(04:46):
to hold it close to the vest I think. Stephanie
asked reporter James Pilcher if there were still moves left
for Jake to play, Is it possible that he'll say
that Jacob could say I was in a very controlling environment.
My mother, Angela Wagner, controlled us, My father was a
bully and said I had to do these things, and
(05:07):
we were coerced into it. Is there any value in
that even? I mean, that's entirely possible, and some of
the reporting that's what we've heard. Leekal. The other thing
I will say is that maybe they're going after bigger
game than Jake, and they figured we'll cut this deal. Now,
he'll give us what we want and then we can
go get the mom and the dad. But clearly they
were going after the people who plotted it. This was
(05:29):
not Jake's idea, right, or at least not according to
the prosecutors. This was the family coming together. That's what
the prosecutors are after, is that, Okay, we get Jake
to help us, we get Jake to plead out. It
shows that this really did happen. Now we can go
after the people who actually planned it. On April twenty eighth,
just six days after Jake Wagner's hearing, his accused brother
(05:52):
George Wagner, walked into the Pike County Courthouse. The first
court hearing since last week's surprise plea deal and the
Pike County murder trials took place today. This hearing for
George Wagner was supposed to center on a few defense
emotions involving discovery evidence. Annette Levy was on the scene
that day. She spoke to producer Chris Graves. He kind
of described the mood and what was going on. The
mood was a lot lighter than it had been in
(06:14):
the past. The Roden family is a little bit that
I saw of them. They just seemed happy for the
first time in a long time. And I think I
saw Hannah Gilly's mother and she actually seemed happy and
they can start to finally look fithered. So it was
just a much lighter mood, But you know George the Fourth,
obviously it wasn't a lighter mood for him. He looked
very stressed, He looked very thin. He doesn't look good.
(06:36):
You can see it on his face. In the aftermath
of Jake Wagner's shocking confession, many wondered how accused older
brother George Wagner's hearing would play out. We spoke at
length about George in the last two episodes. It was
at his wedding that the last known picture of the
Roden and Wagner families was taken. Also, George and his
ex wife dealt with eerily similar custody issues that would
(06:57):
foreshadow what would happen between victim Hannah Rowden and Jake Wagner.
His lawyer, Rick Nash, has been very assertive and maintained
that George the fourth there was no case against him,
that there was no evidence against him. But now he's
kind of having to swallow his pride a little bit.
I think and realize that there may be some really
(07:17):
good evidence tying his client to this and this emotion
hearing was for like all these boilerplate death penalty emotions,
death penalty's off the table now, people following the case,
wondered would George Wagner strike a plea deal as well.
My opinion of George the fourth is that he's kind
of is the weakest link in this family because he's
(07:40):
got the most to lose. He has a son who
he loves dearly, and he wants to be with his son.
And so I was wondering, what's George going to do?
Instead of a guilty plead, the court heard something far
less dramatic. It took us in five minutes for George
wage to the fourth to ask for more time to
(08:00):
evaluate the situation. No, Judge, I don't think so. I
think everybody's agreed that, given recent events, that everybody needs
to step back and reassess. The hearing concluded with an
agreement to reschedule the motion for June twenty first, twenty one.
(08:20):
Though there were no bombshell developments, it's clear that the
next few weeks will be pivotal. George Wagner and his
accused parents, Angela and Billy Wagner must now decide how
they will proceed. Do you think that it's possible that
now that Jake took the plea deal and admitted to
the murders that we may see Billy Angela and or
George doing this same thing. I think it's possible that
(08:41):
the others could plead out. But at the same time,
what's the point They have nothing to lose by going
to trial, because they either to plead out get life
in prison, or they roll the dice and go to
trial and maybe they can hang a jury. As Mike
g Allen points out, there's no one case that assures
a conviction. Is there any version of this where one
(09:04):
of them is found guilty and the other are found innocent.
It's possible, Yeah, I mean, it just it all depends
on what the individual juries want to do. Yeah, I mean,
that's very possible, and it's happened on trials that where
they're two defendants that have been severed, where one has
found guilty and the other one is not. You know,
(09:25):
different juries are different and it'll be a different jury
for every one of these trials. And lawyers will tell you,
especially criminal lawyers, you never know what is going to
happen with the jury. And I've been at this for
forty years and juries are becoming even more unpredictable. I
(09:46):
don't know why, but they are but in answer to
your question, yeah, that's a possibility. Last episode, we heard
Bureau of Criminal Investigation agent Ryan Scheiderer testify about the
Wagner's cult like family done Ammock. They're very close. They
lived together, they've always lived together. Their finances are intermingled,
the homeschool together, they raised their kids together. Everything is
(10:09):
done together. As well as we have an informant who
says that every decision within that family is made as
a family decision. Without any of the other Wagners coming
forward with plea deals, there are still a lot of
questions that need to be answered about the family that
is alleged to have carried out Ohio's most notorious crime.
It's worth noting that while Jake Wagner pleaded guilty, Angela
(10:32):
Billy and George Wagner have pleaded not guilty. The state
is kind of maintained that each person in this conspiracy
had their own role, They had their own kind of
part to play, and you know, it's going to be
interesting to see how strong the evidence is to support
their assertion that each person had a role in this conspiracy.
(10:54):
At this point, one thing is clear. Jake Wagner holds
the fate of his family in his hands, and the
united front the Wagner family has built is beginning to erode.
How it will all unfold is anyone's guests. Remember, we
don't know exactly what Jake said and how he said it.
We just know that he confessed and led them to evidence.
So there's still a lot we don't know based on
(11:15):
what the prosecution outlined in court. So let's take a
look at the evidence we know about based on what
we've heard through preliminary hearings over the past three years.
One of the most informative was a hearing for accused
brother George Wagner that took place on August thirty first,
twenty twenty. That day, George's attorneys requested that he be
allowed to post bail, arguing that there was no evidence
(11:38):
to tie him to the case, and natte Levy was
at the Pike County courthouse that day. It was actually
a fool's errand because in the state of Ohio, someone
charged with aggravated murder in which the death county is
sought can be held without bail automatically. There's really no
question about it. So they were kind of wanting to
I think get some more information about the evidence in
(11:59):
the case. The BCI agent on the case, the lead agent,
Ryan Scheiderer, took the stand and answered a series of
questions about the evidence in the case that they have
against George. Swear testimony. You were about gearge of its
three the whole pie. That special Agent Ryan Scheiterer of
(12:22):
the Bureau of Criminal Investigation taking his oath in court.
During the hearing, George Wagner's attorney tried to distance his
client from the crime and his accused family. His attorney
had set something to the effect of the evidence, you know,
if it tied anybody to this, it was Jake and
Angela and not George. What text or digital communications did
you find too or from him? If you think is
(12:44):
relevant specifically about text messages with George, I don't remember any.
Did you collect a cell phone from George? I don't
believe we ever collected George celler What connection does George
had to do with that Laftime? The device was registered
to Jake, but specifically Angela, who seemed to be the
primary user of that laptop. But there was some evidence
(13:08):
that implicated George Wagner along with his brother Jake in
the crimes. One of the most striking parts of Agent
Scheider's testimony had to do with the type of guns
used in the homicides. We know the three calibers of
firearms that were used to give them these murders, and
they were a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty
caliber and a thirty caliber. Scheiderer went on to make
(13:32):
a direct correlation between the twenty two caliber shell casings
found at victims Dana Roden and Frankie Roden's homes and
the property owned by the Wagner family. Here's Agent Scheiterer
being questioned by Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa. We recovered twenty two
caliber shell casings and where we recovered those which at
two sixty Peterson Road, which was a property that was
(13:53):
owned by George Wager and his brother Jake. And were
those shell casings submitted to the last for comparison to
the shell casings that have been recovered from both Frankie's
and Dana's residences. Yes, and what was the opinion of
the The weapon that fired the shell casings at two
(14:17):
sixty Pierson Road also fired the shell casings at Anna's
and Dana's residence as well. As Frankie and Hannah Gillis residence.
So the same firearm had been fired on the same properties. Okay,
so the exact same gun, not just the same type
of the same firearms, okay. Forensic expert Joseph Morgan explained
(14:41):
the intricate science involved in tying a shell casing back
to a specific gun. The inside of a handgun like
this has got rifling. That means it's got lands, which
are kind of flat plateau looking formations. And also because
these are soft metal brass casings that are being ejected
once the round is fired, you have what are referred
(15:03):
to as extraction marks this spent case, and it leaves
these little marks that are unique to the interior housing
of this particular weapon. And even you can have a
weapon that rolls off the line with fifty other weapons
that are the same same model, but they're all going
to be unique at a microscopic level, and that's how
(15:26):
they tied back the projectile to a specific weapon. Another
suspicious item was found during a different search of the
same Wagner property. The police went back and they found
what the ATF says was likely used as a homemade
silencer for a gun agent Scheierer elaborated recovered a maglite
(15:49):
flashlight turned into a suppressor. Yeah, adapter at one end
that as a solid adapter, they closed in and they
at the other end you add a thread adapter and
it's designed to catch cleaning solvent when you're cleaning your firearm,
but it can easily be converted into a suppressor. They
(16:10):
determined that it was a suppressor as defined by federal statue,
been fired at least one time because they could see
a bull of striking inside the suppressor. Thing. That was
pretty interesting because that wasn't found. That was found in
I think October of twenty eighteen, right before the indictments
came out, and that property, the Peterson Road home had
(16:31):
been searched in May of twenty seventeen. I mean, when
I hear that, it sounds like someone told them about it.
We know, but Jake led them to the guns, the
murder weapons, the car used purchased and news and so
who knows. Maybe. During cross examination by George Wagner's attorney,
Agent Scheiterer highlighted some of the other evidence the state
(16:53):
has on George, including wiretap surveillance. Could you approximate to
the nearest hundred of how many hours you have regarding
this recording of George Wagner? Hours? Not really, but I
would say over one hundred, one hundred days, over a
(17:16):
hudred days, okay, And so I want you to focus
on those hundred days, and maybe your answer is the same,
but I'm going to ask it a different way. Could
you tell us over that one hundred days of recording
George Wagner one statement he made that you recorded that
ties him into this case. I mean, he never confessed,
(17:37):
if that's what you're getting at, but he made incriminating statements.
At a different hearing, George Wagner appeared in court for
an unusual request to be put in solitary confinement. Here's
Jeff speaking with Mike Gallen. What about George Wagner asking
for solitary confinement? What do you make of that? His
stated reason was that he wanted to be able to
(17:57):
study the Bible in peace. That's a little unusual when
inmates ask for solitary A lot of times, although they
may not say it, they're asking for that because they've
been threatened, and you know, they want to make sure
that they're as safe as they can be in jail.
You know, it's hard, it's hard to know what's going
(18:18):
through his head. But I mean, either he's immersing himself
in the Holy Bible or somebody saying that they're going
to do something to him. Either way, his mental state
is probably not good. But when I read that, I
kind of wondered, is that the real reason? I mean,
you know, you just have to wonder what the motivation is.
(18:38):
Since his arrest in twenty eighteen, accused father Billy Wagner
has also staunchly maintained his innocence. Billy Wagner's attorney has
been very adamant that there's no evidence. There's no case
against Billy Wagner, but there's nothing. They have, nothing that
ties him to this. Last year, Billy Wagner made an
audacious move to separate himself from the other members of
(18:59):
his family and moved his trial forward. He took it
upon himself to file a motion in court. It had
to do with his right to what's referred to as
a speedy trial and Ohio procedural rule stipulating that anyone
charged with a felony must be brought to trial within
two hundred and seventy days of their arrest while accused
father Billy Wagner, had initially waived his right to a
speedy trial. It seems he suddenly had a change of heart.
(19:23):
The court received a handwritten motion from Billy Wagner asking
that his right to a speedy trial be invoked and
that he withdraw his waiver of a speedy trial right.
He was pretty frustrated. I guess that he's sitting in jail.
He says he's innocent and was frustrated and submitted this
or to the court. But it was actually some fairly
(19:45):
good jailhouse lawyer. I'm assuming he had somebody in the
jail can write this for him and his attorneys. They
became aware of it and talked with him and withdrew
it immediately. Mike Allen gave us his professional opinion on
Billy's spun legal strategy. I don't care how small your
jail is, you're going to have jail house lawyers and
(20:05):
criminal defense attorneys instruct their clients. Do not listen to
the jail house lawyers. They don't know what they're talking about.
If they did, they wouldn't be where they are. So
that's every criminal defense lawyer's worst nightmare. Is when your
client files a motion without consulting the attorney, it's a
(20:28):
very stupid thing to do. So Billy Wagner's lawyer, I'm sure,
probably had some strong words for him for doing that. Well,
Billy and George Wagner have been busy filing legal motions
to help their cases. The same camp be said about
accused mother Angelo Wagner. Bob Craypence is what you would call,
you know, the first chair on this case for her
(20:50):
defense team, and he's been very it's been very quiet
on that front. However, Angelo Wagner has appeared in court
for other At a hearing in twenty nineteen, Judge Randy
Deering revoked Angelo Wagner's mail and phone privileges after she
was caught trying to discuss case strategy with her family.
(21:10):
Here's her lawyer speaking in court that day, which stipulating begetage.
She was in fact instructed she was having no contact
with codefendants in this case. This team half presented this
was some information indicative of a violation of that sticulate
that she did effect violate that court or some of
Angelo Wagner's alleged orchestration was presented by agent scheiterer. At
(21:34):
George's bail hearing last year, he testified about shoe prints
that were found at a few of the crime scenes.
This evidence points directly to Angela Wagner's role in the conspiracy.
Exib eight and nine. These are the shoe impression prints
that were lifted from Chris Rodan Senior's residence and those
(21:58):
are shoe impresses that later determined to be from an
a specific shoe that is determined to be sold by Walmart. Correct?
And then did you ultimately execute a search warrant up
on State out forty one? Yes, and you described to
us what you were searching. There there were two pickup
(22:18):
trucks and three trailers that were parked at that location
that belonged to the Wagner family. Did you find a receipt? Yes,
we did. There was a Walmart receipt. Read the receipt
and Jake Wagner's okay, and specifically in a tub marked
(22:42):
important days or something correct? Okay, what was the significance
of that receipt? So this Walmart receipt is for the Waverley,
Ohio Walmart on Emma Avenue. It is dated April seventh,
twenty sixteen timestamped at sixteen fifty eight hours on there
there are if they'd purchased up two Athletic brand tennis shoes,
(23:03):
which is consistent with the shoes that we were looking for.
And you indicated that Angela told made a statement to
your fellow agents that she had purchased those shoes specifically
for Jacob George. Correct. And you were asked if you've
recovered those shoes, if you found those shoes, yes, and
(23:27):
you did not correct. Correct, And isn't it true that
Angela said that she had thrown those shoes away the
very same day that she bought them. Yes, because the
boys didn't like the shoes. Correct, but jaded George told
they denied knowledge of the shoes ever seen. Correct. We're
(23:51):
going to take a quick break here. We'll be back
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Since your role as Whitehouse correspondent, Kate and Collins has
(26:01):
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conditions at uns dot coo. Altogether, it appears the prosecution
(27:38):
has amassed an overwhelming amount of evidence against the Wagner family.
Here is Agent Scheier telling George Wagner's attorney just how
much audio evidence the state has at their disposal. What
reportings do you have that you feel are relevant or
in this sure some evidence here in these case, we
have you know, approximately eight thousand recordings primarily of the
(28:01):
Wiger individuals, the family. You know, we also have interviews
where you know, I feel there was incriminating statements made
within the interviews. They've got wire taps in this case,
they have video surveillance evidence, they have, you know, countless
interviews with people. The prosecution has said, you know, this
(28:22):
is a voluminous file. They've said it takes up terabytes
and terabytes. A terabyte is a huge amount of space
on a computer, so that it kind of gives you
an idea of what they've gathered. The sheer volume of
evidence shocked even seasoned attorney Mike Allen. Here he is
talking to Jeff you as an expert, Is that a
(28:44):
high amount? Is that a normal amount of evidence? No,
that's that's just astronomical. I would not have expected it
to be that high. It's not normal at all. According
to investigative reporter Jodi Barr, George and the other accused
Wagners could have implicated at each other without even knowing.
What we don't know is whether the Wagners gave statements
(29:06):
and what statements they made to investigators before, during, or
after the charge. We don't know what the contents of
any intercepted phone calls as they've been in jail might
being Who knows what the state of Ohio has as
far as whether you know, statements made by one Wagner
could almost assure a conviction of another. So how could
(29:28):
we see the legal battles play out in the courtroom
if the Wagners aside to go to trial. As it stands,
Billy Angela and George Wagner have all been charged with
eight counts of aggravated murder. If convicted, they, like Jake,
will spend the rest of their lives in prison. Never
have I seen anything even remotely close to this case.
I've been involved in some bad ones, but this one
(29:52):
is by far the worst. One of the many things
that's so unique about this offense is you do have
generations of family members just taken out, completely excused. Hard
to imagine a fact scenario more bizarre than this one.
It's it's so unique in so many ways. One of
(30:12):
them is the enormous burden the trials will place on
the legal teams and the Ohio criminal justice system. You're
trying the case in a small county with limited resources.
I don't know how they're going to do it. It's
just going to be a logistical nightmare. Can the Wagner
lawyers work together on the defense or does it all
have to be separate? They can work together, and that
(30:33):
happens sometimes when you have code defendants. I think at
some point you run into some strategy problems. But to
a certain extent they can. But the lawyer obviously has
to zealously represent his client. But if it's in this
client's best interest to work with the other lawyers, yeah,
they definitely would. Witness testimony could also prove to be
(30:54):
a challenge. You're going to have witness burnout because many
most problem of the witnesses in one trial will be
witnesses in the other. And you know that's a that's
a burden upon the witnesses, But the prosecution has no
choice that they have to go forward in that nature.
Another obstacle seating a jury of twelve impartial Pike County residents.
(31:18):
Here's Chris speaking to reporter James Pilcher. It's Ohio state
law that you initially have to try and see a
jury in the county the crime was committed. Correct. So
Angela Wagner has already requested that her trial be moved
out of Pike County, but under high legal procedures, you
have to try to see the jury in the county
where the crime was committed before you're allowed to move it.
(31:38):
So they've got a pull from any jury pool of
registered voters, will narrow it down to twelve plus a
couple of alternates, and that process can take anywhere from
three days to a week, depending on the complexity of
the case. I mean, that's going to be really difficult,
isn't it. I mean there's only I think what twenty
seven twenty eight thousand residents in all of Pike County.
You have to pick jurors for cases out of a
(32:01):
jury pool that small. I would not be surprised to
see them have to move some of these trials to
another county. Again, here's Mike Allen. That's probably the judge's
biggest headache in this case is to ultimately be able
to see separate juries that can be fair both to
the state and to the defense, because I think you'd
(32:23):
be hard pressed to find any county in the state
of Ohio that just was not inundated with media coverage
about this. But it's important to keep this in mind.
If a potential juror says under oath that, yes, I
have seen things in the media about this, but I
can divorce myself from those things and render a fair
(32:47):
and impartial verdict based upon the evidence that we see
from the witness stand, the testimony, and the instructions given
by the judge. That's then a good and acceptable jury.
And that's the only way that this case is going
to work. Because unless you're living in some kind of
a cave, I don't care who you are, you've heard
(33:09):
about it, and you know you're just not going to
be able to seek a jury of twelve in any
of these cases where they've not heard anything about it.
How are each of the cases likely to affect the other?
Are there things that we should be keeping an eye
on the first one that goes I think has the
tougher road, and the guy going last or next to last,
(33:31):
they're going to have an advantage by knowing which way
the judge will rule on evidentiary motions and things of
that nature. They'll have the benefit of watching the take
so to speak, like a like a football coach would.
But there could be one overlooked factor that determines the
outcome of the cases, the drive of the prosecuting attorneys.
(33:53):
When you see a case like this and see the
position these young kids have been put in, what does
that mean you feel when you see a case like this,
it's just absolutely heartbreaking. It just is because you just
know that that is going to permanently affect that child.
There's no way that it couldn't. But a prosecutor's driven
(34:16):
by justice for the victim and the victim's family. But
if you have a particularly violent and hand his crime
like you have here, it's tough. But as a prosecutor, honestly,
it makes you want to work all the harder to
get a conviction. And yeah, that's just the way it is.
(34:37):
We've heard Special Agent Ryan Scheiderer mentioned witnesses who are
close to the Wagner's and excerpts of his testimony. Since
Jake Wagner's confession, we haven't heard anything from grandmother of
the accused, Frederica Wagner. Last season, we talked about how
she was arrested on obstruction of justice and perjury charges
pretending to bulletproof est she purchased for her son, Billy Wagner.
(34:58):
Prosecutors believe she purchased the best for him to use
in the killings. Her charges were dropped after hearing in
twenty nineteen, as the prosecution feared not being able to
try the case before the two hundred and seventy days
Speedy Trial statute. But her case isn't closed yet, Frederica.
They've indicated in court documents that they may charge her
again with obstruction. Frederica Wagner has vehemently defended her family's innocence,
(35:23):
but is it possible that she knows more about what
happened the night of April twenty first, twenty sixteen than
she's let on. Depending on what Jake Wagner knows and reveals,
it's possible that grandmother Frederica Wagner could be looking at
new charges. Do you know what Jake pleading guilty, how
that will impact his grandmother, Well, they can always be
(35:45):
reindicted if there's additional new evidence. He kind of seems
to be like he's the key to this entire case.
So yeah, I suppose it's possible. To our knowledge, Frederico
Wagner has not been implicated in any other crimes, nor
has she made any plea deals with the prosecution. But
the same camp be said for the other grandmother who
(36:06):
was charged in the case. Rita Newcome. Angela Wagner's mother,
had initially told investigators that she had notarized and signed
some custody documents for the child that Jake and Hannah
shared in the event that they died. But then later
as her trial approached, on the day of trial, all
of the sudden, we were all out there ready to go,
and the trial was canceled. And then a short time
(36:29):
later she pleaded guilty, and in court the prosecution outlined
how they said that Rita admitted that she had lied
and that her daughter Angela, had asked her to lie
about signing and notarizing those custody documents. Here's a statement
Rita newcomade during her plea deal. As anyone promised you
anything at all, or threatened you in any way at
(36:50):
all in order to induce you to withdraw your former
plea of not guilty entered to the original charge of
obstructing justice I degree felly in count four, and to
enter a plea of guilty to the amended charge of
obstructing official business, a misdemeanor of the second degree. No,
(37:12):
I just feel that it's not a good Christian thank
to line, and I couldn't he put it anymore. This
is all despite Angela Wagner's repeated attempts to further manipulate
her mother. During court hearings for Angela's mother, Rita Newcomb,
it was stated that Angela Wagner was on jail calls
(37:32):
telling her mother, you don't have to testify against us.
Mike Allen told Stephanie about the challenges Rita Newcomb's testimony
could present if the trials move forward. If it's obvious
to the trial judge that she doesn't want to be
testifying to the state, the judge can and probably would,
designate her as a hostile witness. What is a hostile
(37:53):
witness if the prosecution has to call a witness to
establish or help establish one of the elements of the offense,
and that witnesses someone who's more sympathetic with the defense.
In all likelihood than the judge would designate that person
a hostile witness, giving the prosecutor the opportunity to ask
leading questions. So it's not a matter whether they get
(38:15):
up on the stand and act at crazy or act
like an idiot. It's a matter of is this person,
you know, going to cooperate with whoever is calling them.
Another possibility is hearing from one of the long rumored
informants we discussed last season. Mike Allen discussed the role
informants usually play in cases like the Wagner's. Are you
(38:35):
able to Mike just tell us what an informant is.
It usually is a situation where they go to the
police with some information. I mean police can seek out
people too and you know, just say hey, you know,
you tell us what you know about this, And I
mean it happens both ways, but more often than not,
it's it's the police know that somebody there's a good
chance somebody would know something, and they seek that person out.
(38:59):
But the thing of it is it's a confidential and
reliable informant. So it has to be someone that you
can build a case that they are reliable. At George
Wagner's bond hearing last year, Agent Ryan Scheiderer told the
court that one informant had disclosed a deadly plot that
the Wagner family was planning on carrying out. It included
(39:20):
then Attorney General Mike Dwine, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader,
and Scheiderer himself. There is a witness that testified that
she was present when George, his brother, Jake, his mom,
and his dad were basically organizing a retaliation plan should
(39:40):
they get arrested and charged, specifically targeting myself and Dwine
and share Reader. Okay, And according to the person who
gave you this information, when was that stage summer of
twenty eighteen. Anette Levy heard Scheiderer's testimony that day. I
(40:02):
think there's supposed to be a couple of informants in
this case, and one of them, which is very interesting,
happens to be a woman who married Jake Wagner when
the family went to Alaska. Let's stop here for another
quick break. We'll be back in a moment. At times,
(40:27):
it is hard to not be discouraged. Climate change, abortion vans,
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That's credomobile dot Com Code Podcast fifty. Interesting and relatable topics,
(41:29):
knowledgeable guests, highly entertaining, and informative. Words that describe CNN's
podcast Chasing Life with Doctor Sanjay Gupta. As I talked
to doctor Rich what really stood out to me was
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treatment for problematic interactive media use cannot be abstinates. This
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Listen to Chasing Life with Sanjay Gupta on the iHeartRadio app.
He'll forget about the video game you gave him on
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I am an actor, a podcast as host, a mom,
and honestly very tired most of the time. And I'm
Adam Shapiro, an actor, a pretzel maker, a dad, and
Katie's husband. And we're so excited because we're the new
hosts of Chasing Sleep, the production of Ruby Studios from
iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm. Sleep affects your physical
and mental performance, your family dynamics, and your quality of
(43:21):
life as you grow older. Sleep can even affect dreaming life.
The dreams come to us naturally, but we have to
provide the action as individuals. So the first question that
I always ask the dreamer is how are you feeling
in the dream? The maths sad, glad or afraid. If
(43:41):
we can narrow our emotions down to that, then we
can take some action. We're going to talk to the
experts who will help everyday people like us explore the
mysteries behind our own sleep. So listen to Chasing Sleep
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. Last season, we talked about the Wagner suspicious
(44:07):
move to Alaska in June of twenty seventeen, at the
height of the Roden murder investigation. They said this had
been planned for some time. The boys were looking for
good jobs up there, and then Jake met a woman
at church. They became married. And in the discovery documents
that detail what was handed over by the state to
(44:28):
the Wagner attorneys, it states that there are several interviews
between a Bureau of Criminal Investigations agent and the woman
that Jake Wagner married while he was living in Alaska,
So there are a number of interviews with her and
recorded phone calls between this woman and Jake Wagner. What
(44:49):
about the witnesses who were left alive at the scene,
the Roden children who were spared that fateful night in
twenty sixteen. One of the kids was a three year
old toddler. If that child witnessed the murder, I don't
know if he said something when the investadors came in
that pointed to possibly someone in the Wagner family, because
they would have all known each other. You know, he's
(45:12):
eight now. If he had any memory or had said
something at the time when they found him. Is there
any potential that he might be called as a witness
although eight Now in Ohio, the rule is a child
under the age of ten is presumed incompetent to testify. Now,
if a judge does what they call a bordier of
(45:34):
that potential witness and determines that the young person does
know the difference between telling the truth and telling a lie,
it's possible that the judge could permit the testimony. But boy,
any defense attorney are going to fight like crazy to
keep something like that out. It comes down to the reliability.
Is it a reliable statement? Can you rely on something
(45:56):
that a three year old saw and something that an
eight year old, years after the fact is trying to explain.
It's tough, not impossible to get a statement like that in,
but I think highly unlikely. Mike Allen points it out
a compelling entry in one of the discovery documents that
implies another piece of the evidentiary puzzle. Is there one
(46:17):
piece of evidence just based on what you've seen in
terms of the discovery list, that is the aha or
something that really surprised you. Yeah, there's definitely one thing,
says trash Poll from June eighth, twenty and seventeen, and
that can only mean one thing that DNA is involved
in this case. What a trash poll is when somebody
(46:42):
sets their trash out at the curb, they do not
have a privacy interest anymore in that trash. So it's
open season for the police if they want to go
rooting through somebody's trash. And that's how in many instances,
that's how law enforcement gets DNA evidence is from trash polls.
(47:03):
That's the thing that closes the deal, right that that
like closes the case essentially. That's the part of the
CSI thing that you know, jurors watch and that's one
thing that's accurate. I mean, if it gets into evidence,
it's it's just devastating. Another revelation we're likely to witness
at the trial is more information about the rodents autopsy reports.
(47:26):
Though the documents will released months after the murders in
twenty sixteen, they were heavily redacted due to a gag
utter imposed by the judge on the case. This is
just a situation where you know, the trial judge who
has to shepherd these trials through fairly doesn't want the
public getting this information before trial. One of the reasons
(47:46):
being you don't want a tainted jury pool, and of
course prosecution they don't want to telegraph anything from that
autopsy with respect to their strategy. Reporter James p Ulture
told us what journalists were able to glean from the
initial releases. He basically laid out where they were found,
how many times they were shot. You know where they
(48:08):
were shot, and you know they did list specifically where
the kids, the young kids were found. So what can
we expect from the full reports. A good autopsy, I'll
tell you a lot about how the victim lived and
how they died, and gets a pivotal critical piece of
the investigation and possibly reveal information that maybe only the
(48:32):
killer would know. But the most powerful part of the
state's case could come from the prosecutor's recreation of the
events of April twenty first, twenty sixteen. According to forensics
expert Joseph Morgan, this narrative helps give a voice to
each member of the slain family. It's something that we'll
be revealing in real time as the trials for Billy
(48:54):
Angela and George Wagner proceed. In the case of a
masker in Piked and every single human remain every body
that was there has an individual tale to be told.
The prosecution is trying to paint a picture here and
(49:15):
they're going to do that through these bodies there. That's
going to be the vessel they're going to travel through here.
And the more vibrant that the prosecution can make that picture,
the more perfective. It shocks the conscience of just people
that go about their normal day life. They don't expect
this type of thing to happen, and it is pure.
(49:41):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie
Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County
is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by executive producer Sir Jared Aston.
Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves.
(50:05):
The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is a
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to your favorite shows. Since her role as White House Correspondent,
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Find one for you at curiosity stream dot com. Welcome
to the Piked and Massacre, a production of iHeartRadio and
Katie Studios. I gotta tell you from kind of a
visceral standpoint, when I heard the news that this kid
had rolled over on this case, one thing that kind
(02:18):
of came to mind for me is, you know, I
kind of envisioned his mother in almost a mob Barker
kind of way, that she's kind of the puppet master
that's controlling everything. He's sitting there all along, and suddenly
(02:38):
he has this lucid moment where he's out from under
that thob and he realizes, I'm going to get the
needle for all of this. This is the Piked and
Massacre Returned to Pike County Season two, Episode three, Wagner
(03:00):
Versus Wagner. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie
Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. On April twenty second,
twenty twenty one, Jake Wagner pleaded guilty to eight aggravated
murder charges in the Rodent family massacre. As part of
his plea deal, he implicated his mother, Angela Wagner, father
Billy Wagner, and brother George Wagner as co conspirators in
(03:23):
the killings. He's also agreeing to testify against his parents
and brother, who are also charged in these murders. Here's
reporter Anteinette Levy. I don't believe anybody knew he was
going to do this, so it's it's a pretty stunning development.
To see Jake Wagner, the youngest of the entire family,
who would you would think would be, you know, maybe
(03:45):
the most pliable in some respects because he is the youngest.
But to see him just break away from his family,
I don't know, it's it's pretty interesting. The significance of
Jake Wagner folding on his family cannot be overstated. But
what does it mean moving forward? Criminal defense attorney Mike
Allen told Stephanie that it could signal an impending legal
(04:05):
chess match in terms of Jake Wagner's admission of guilt,
I'm just curious about what that means altogether. He's confessed
to killing five of the eight rodents. Personally, is he
trying to save himself or trying to save his family?
You know, obviously, you know if he did five out
of eight, you still have three left, and you know
(04:25):
it'll come out who who actually did the killing on
those other three, But it was probably a strategic move
on the prosecutor's part not to let that out yet.
And you know a prosecutor is not going to show
his cards, or in this case, she Angie when't. She's
got three other defendants to try, so they're still going
(04:46):
to hold it close to the vest I think. Stephanie
asked reporter James Pilcher if there were still moves left
for Jake to play, Is it possible that he'll say
that Jacob could say I was in a very controlling environment.
My mother, Angela Wagner, controlled us, My father was a
bully and said I had to do these things, and
(05:07):
we were coerced into it. Is there any value in
that even? I mean, that's entirely possible, and some of
the reporting that's what we've heard. Leekal. The other thing
I will say is that maybe they're going after bigger
game than Jake, and they figured we'll cut this deal. Now,
he'll give us what we want and then we can
go get the mom and the dad. But clearly they
were going after the people who plotted it. This was
(05:29):
not Jake's idea, right, or at least not according to
the prosecutors. This was the family coming together. That's what
the prosecutors are after, is that, Okay, we get Jake
to help us, we get Jake to plead out. It
shows that this really did happen. Now we can go
after the people who actually planned it. On April twenty eighth,
just six days after Jake Wagner's hearing, his accused brother
(05:52):
George Wagner, walked into the Pike County Courthouse. The first
court hearing since last week's surprise plea deal and the
Pike County murder trials took place today. This hearing for
George Wagner was supposed to center on a few defense
emotions involving discovery evidence. Annette Levy was on the scene
that day. She spoke to producer Chris Graves. He kind
of described the mood and what was going on. The
mood was a lot lighter than it had been in
(06:14):
the past. The Roden family is a little bit that
I saw of them. They just seemed happy for the
first time in a long time. And I think I
saw Hannah Gilly's mother and she actually seemed happy and
they can start to finally look fithered. So it was
just a much lighter mood, But you know George the Fourth,
obviously it wasn't a lighter mood for him. He looked
very stressed, He looked very thin. He doesn't look good.
(06:36):
You can see it on his face. In the aftermath
of Jake Wagner's shocking confession, many wondered how accused older
brother George Wagner's hearing would play out. We spoke at
length about George in the last two episodes. It was
at his wedding that the last known picture of the
Roden and Wagner families was taken. Also, George and his
ex wife dealt with eerily similar custody issues that would
(06:57):
foreshadow what would happen between victim Hannah Rowden and Jake Wagner.
His lawyer, Rick Nash, has been very assertive and maintained
that George the fourth there was no case against him,
that there was no evidence against him. But now he's
kind of having to swallow his pride a little bit.
I think and realize that there may be some really
(07:17):
good evidence tying his client to this and this emotion
hearing was for like all these boilerplate death penalty emotions,
death penalty's off the table now, people following the case,
wondered would George Wagner strike a plea deal as well.
My opinion of George the fourth is that he's kind
of is the weakest link in this family because he's
(07:40):
got the most to lose. He has a son who
he loves dearly, and he wants to be with his son.
And so I was wondering, what's George going to do?
Instead of a guilty plead, the court heard something far
less dramatic. It took us in five minutes for George
wage to the fourth to ask for more time to
(08:00):
evaluate the situation. No, Judge, I don't think so. I
think everybody's agreed that, given recent events, that everybody needs
to step back and reassess. The hearing concluded with an
agreement to reschedule the motion for June twenty first, twenty one.
(08:20):
Though there were no bombshell developments, it's clear that the
next few weeks will be pivotal. George Wagner and his
accused parents, Angela and Billy Wagner must now decide how
they will proceed. Do you think that it's possible that
now that Jake took the plea deal and admitted to
the murders that we may see Billy Angela and or
George doing this same thing. I think it's possible that
(08:41):
the others could plead out. But at the same time,
what's the point They have nothing to lose by going
to trial, because they either to plead out get life
in prison, or they roll the dice and go to
trial and maybe they can hang a jury. As Mike
g Allen points out, there's no one case that assures
a conviction. Is there any version of this where one
(09:04):
of them is found guilty and the other are found innocent.
It's possible, Yeah, I mean, it just it all depends
on what the individual juries want to do. Yeah, I mean,
that's very possible, and it's happened on trials that where
they're two defendants that have been severed, where one has
found guilty and the other one is not. You know,
(09:25):
different juries are different and it'll be a different jury
for every one of these trials. And lawyers will tell you,
especially criminal lawyers, you never know what is going to
happen with the jury. And I've been at this for
forty years and juries are becoming even more unpredictable. I
(09:46):
don't know why, but they are but in answer to
your question, yeah, that's a possibility. Last episode, we heard
Bureau of Criminal Investigation agent Ryan Scheiderer testify about the
Wagner's cult like family done Ammock. They're very close. They
lived together, they've always lived together. Their finances are intermingled,
the homeschool together, they raised their kids together. Everything is
(10:09):
done together. As well as we have an informant who
says that every decision within that family is made as
a family decision. Without any of the other Wagners coming
forward with plea deals, there are still a lot of
questions that need to be answered about the family that
is alleged to have carried out Ohio's most notorious crime.
It's worth noting that while Jake Wagner pleaded guilty, Angela
(10:32):
Billy and George Wagner have pleaded not guilty. The state
is kind of maintained that each person in this conspiracy
had their own role, They had their own kind of
part to play, and you know, it's going to be
interesting to see how strong the evidence is to support
their assertion that each person had a role in this conspiracy.
(10:54):
At this point, one thing is clear. Jake Wagner holds
the fate of his family in his hands, and the
united front the Wagner family has built is beginning to erode.
How it will all unfold is anyone's guests. Remember, we
don't know exactly what Jake said and how he said it.
We just know that he confessed and led them to evidence.
So there's still a lot we don't know based on
(11:15):
what the prosecution outlined in court. So let's take a
look at the evidence we know about based on what
we've heard through preliminary hearings over the past three years.
One of the most informative was a hearing for accused
brother George Wagner that took place on August thirty first,
twenty twenty. That day, George's attorneys requested that he be
allowed to post bail, arguing that there was no evidence
(11:38):
to tie him to the case, and natte Levy was
at the Pike County courthouse that day. It was actually
a fool's errand because in the state of Ohio, someone
charged with aggravated murder in which the death county is
sought can be held without bail automatically. There's really no
question about it. So they were kind of wanting to
I think get some more information about the evidence in
(11:59):
the case. The BCI agent on the case, the lead agent,
Ryan Scheiderer, took the stand and answered a series of
questions about the evidence in the case that they have
against George. Swear testimony. You were about gearge of its
three the whole pie. That special Agent Ryan Scheiterer of
(12:22):
the Bureau of Criminal Investigation taking his oath in court.
During the hearing, George Wagner's attorney tried to distance his
client from the crime and his accused family. His attorney
had set something to the effect of the evidence, you know,
if it tied anybody to this, it was Jake and
Angela and not George. What text or digital communications did
you find too or from him? If you think is
(12:44):
relevant specifically about text messages with George, I don't remember any.
Did you collect a cell phone from George? I don't
believe we ever collected George celler What connection does George
had to do with that Laftime? The device was registered
to Jake, but specifically Angela, who seemed to be the
primary user of that laptop. But there was some evidence
(13:08):
that implicated George Wagner along with his brother Jake in
the crimes. One of the most striking parts of Agent
Scheider's testimony had to do with the type of guns
used in the homicides. We know the three calibers of
firearms that were used to give them these murders, and
they were a twenty two caliber long rifle, a forty
caliber and a thirty caliber. Scheiderer went on to make
(13:32):
a direct correlation between the twenty two caliber shell casings
found at victims Dana Roden and Frankie Roden's homes and
the property owned by the Wagner family. Here's Agent Scheiterer
being questioned by Prosecutor Angie Kaneppa. We recovered twenty two
caliber shell casings and where we recovered those which at
two sixty Peterson Road, which was a property that was
(13:53):
owned by George Wager and his brother Jake. And were
those shell casings submitted to the last for comparison to
the shell casings that have been recovered from both Frankie's
and Dana's residences. Yes, and what was the opinion of
the The weapon that fired the shell casings at two
(14:17):
sixty Pierson Road also fired the shell casings at Anna's
and Dana's residence as well. As Frankie and Hannah Gillis residence.
So the same firearm had been fired on the same properties. Okay,
so the exact same gun, not just the same type
of the same firearms, okay. Forensic expert Joseph Morgan explained
(14:41):
the intricate science involved in tying a shell casing back
to a specific gun. The inside of a handgun like
this has got rifling. That means it's got lands, which
are kind of flat plateau looking formations. And also because
these are soft metal brass casings that are being ejected
once the round is fired, you have what are referred
(15:03):
to as extraction marks this spent case, and it leaves
these little marks that are unique to the interior housing
of this particular weapon. And even you can have a
weapon that rolls off the line with fifty other weapons
that are the same same model, but they're all going
to be unique at a microscopic level, and that's how
(15:26):
they tied back the projectile to a specific weapon. Another
suspicious item was found during a different search of the
same Wagner property. The police went back and they found
what the ATF says was likely used as a homemade
silencer for a gun agent Scheierer elaborated recovered a maglite
(15:49):
flashlight turned into a suppressor. Yeah, adapter at one end
that as a solid adapter, they closed in and they
at the other end you add a thread adapter and
it's designed to catch cleaning solvent when you're cleaning your firearm,
but it can easily be converted into a suppressor. They
(16:10):
determined that it was a suppressor as defined by federal statue,
been fired at least one time because they could see
a bull of striking inside the suppressor. Thing. That was
pretty interesting because that wasn't found. That was found in
I think October of twenty eighteen, right before the indictments
came out, and that property, the Peterson Road home had
(16:31):
been searched in May of twenty seventeen. I mean, when
I hear that, it sounds like someone told them about it.
We know, but Jake led them to the guns, the
murder weapons, the car used purchased and news and so
who knows. Maybe. During cross examination by George Wagner's attorney,
Agent Scheiterer highlighted some of the other evidence the state
(16:53):
has on George, including wiretap surveillance. Could you approximate to
the nearest hundred of how many hours you have regarding
this recording of George Wagner? Hours? Not really, but I
would say over one hundred, one hundred days, over a
(17:16):
hudred days, okay, And so I want you to focus
on those hundred days, and maybe your answer is the same,
but I'm going to ask it a different way. Could
you tell us over that one hundred days of recording
George Wagner one statement he made that you recorded that
ties him into this case. I mean, he never confessed,
(17:37):
if that's what you're getting at, but he made incriminating statements.
At a different hearing, George Wagner appeared in court for
an unusual request to be put in solitary confinement. Here's
Jeff speaking with Mike Gallen. What about George Wagner asking
for solitary confinement? What do you make of that? His
stated reason was that he wanted to be able to
(17:57):
study the Bible in peace. That's a little unusual when
inmates ask for solitary A lot of times, although they
may not say it, they're asking for that because they've
been threatened, and you know, they want to make sure
that they're as safe as they can be in jail.
You know, it's hard, it's hard to know what's going
(18:18):
through his head. But I mean, either he's immersing himself
in the Holy Bible or somebody saying that they're going
to do something to him. Either way, his mental state
is probably not good. But when I read that, I
kind of wondered, is that the real reason? I mean,
you know, you just have to wonder what the motivation is.
(18:38):
Since his arrest in twenty eighteen, accused father Billy Wagner
has also staunchly maintained his innocence. Billy Wagner's attorney has
been very adamant that there's no evidence. There's no case
against Billy Wagner, but there's nothing. They have, nothing that
ties him to this. Last year, Billy Wagner made an
audacious move to separate himself from the other members of
(18:59):
his family and moved his trial forward. He took it
upon himself to file a motion in court. It had
to do with his right to what's referred to as
a speedy trial and Ohio procedural rule stipulating that anyone
charged with a felony must be brought to trial within
two hundred and seventy days of their arrest while accused
father Billy Wagner, had initially waived his right to a
speedy trial. It seems he suddenly had a change of heart.
(19:23):
The court received a handwritten motion from Billy Wagner asking
that his right to a speedy trial be invoked and
that he withdraw his waiver of a speedy trial right.
He was pretty frustrated. I guess that he's sitting in jail.
He says he's innocent and was frustrated and submitted this
or to the court. But it was actually some fairly
(19:45):
good jailhouse lawyer. I'm assuming he had somebody in the
jail can write this for him and his attorneys. They
became aware of it and talked with him and withdrew
it immediately. Mike Allen gave us his professional opinion on
Billy's spun legal strategy. I don't care how small your
jail is, you're going to have jail house lawyers and
(20:05):
criminal defense attorneys instruct their clients. Do not listen to
the jail house lawyers. They don't know what they're talking about.
If they did, they wouldn't be where they are. So
that's every criminal defense lawyer's worst nightmare. Is when your
client files a motion without consulting the attorney, it's a
(20:28):
very stupid thing to do. So Billy Wagner's lawyer, I'm sure,
probably had some strong words for him for doing that. Well,
Billy and George Wagner have been busy filing legal motions
to help their cases. The same camp be said about
accused mother Angelo Wagner. Bob Craypence is what you would call,
you know, the first chair on this case for her
(20:50):
defense team, and he's been very it's been very quiet
on that front. However, Angelo Wagner has appeared in court
for other At a hearing in twenty nineteen, Judge Randy
Deering revoked Angelo Wagner's mail and phone privileges after she
was caught trying to discuss case strategy with her family.
(21:10):
Here's her lawyer speaking in court that day, which stipulating begetage.
She was in fact instructed she was having no contact
with codefendants in this case. This team half presented this
was some information indicative of a violation of that sticulate
that she did effect violate that court or some of
Angelo Wagner's alleged orchestration was presented by agent scheiterer. At
(21:34):
George's bail hearing last year, he testified about shoe prints
that were found at a few of the crime scenes.
This evidence points directly to Angela Wagner's role in the conspiracy.
Exib eight and nine. These are the shoe impression prints
that were lifted from Chris Rodan Senior's residence and those
(21:58):
are shoe impresses that later determined to be from an
a specific shoe that is determined to be sold by Walmart. Correct?
And then did you ultimately execute a search warrant up
on State out forty one? Yes, and you described to
us what you were searching. There there were two pickup
(22:18):
trucks and three trailers that were parked at that location
that belonged to the Wagner family. Did you find a receipt? Yes,
we did. There was a Walmart receipt. Read the receipt
and Jake Wagner's okay, and specifically in a tub marked
(22:42):
important days or something correct? Okay, what was the significance
of that receipt? So this Walmart receipt is for the Waverley,
Ohio Walmart on Emma Avenue. It is dated April seventh,
twenty sixteen timestamped at sixteen fifty eight hours on there
there are if they'd purchased up two Athletic brand tennis shoes,
(23:03):
which is consistent with the shoes that we were looking for.
And you indicated that Angela told made a statement to
your fellow agents that she had purchased those shoes specifically
for Jacob George. Correct. And you were asked if you've
recovered those shoes, if you found those shoes, yes, and
(23:27):
you did not correct. Correct, And isn't it true that
Angela said that she had thrown those shoes away the
very same day that she bought them. Yes, because the
boys didn't like the shoes. Correct, but jaded George told
they denied knowledge of the shoes ever seen. Correct. We're
(23:51):
going to take a quick break here. We'll be back
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Since your role as Whitehouse correspondent, Kate and Collins has
(26:01):
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conditions at uns dot coo. Altogether, it appears the prosecution
(27:38):
has amassed an overwhelming amount of evidence against the Wagner family.
Here is Agent Scheier telling George Wagner's attorney just how
much audio evidence the state has at their disposal. What
reportings do you have that you feel are relevant or
in this sure some evidence here in these case, we
have you know, approximately eight thousand recordings primarily of the
(28:01):
Wiger individuals, the family. You know, we also have interviews
where you know, I feel there was incriminating statements made
within the interviews. They've got wire taps in this case,
they have video surveillance evidence, they have, you know, countless
interviews with people. The prosecution has said, you know, this
(28:22):
is a voluminous file. They've said it takes up terabytes
and terabytes. A terabyte is a huge amount of space
on a computer, so that it kind of gives you
an idea of what they've gathered. The sheer volume of
evidence shocked even seasoned attorney Mike Allen. Here he is
talking to Jeff you as an expert, Is that a
(28:44):
high amount? Is that a normal amount of evidence? No,
that's that's just astronomical. I would not have expected it
to be that high. It's not normal at all. According
to investigative reporter Jodi Barr, George and the other accused
Wagners could have implicated at each other without even knowing.
What we don't know is whether the Wagners gave statements
(29:06):
and what statements they made to investigators before, during, or
after the charge. We don't know what the contents of
any intercepted phone calls as they've been in jail might
being Who knows what the state of Ohio has as
far as whether you know, statements made by one Wagner
could almost assure a conviction of another. So how could
(29:28):
we see the legal battles play out in the courtroom
if the Wagners aside to go to trial. As it stands,
Billy Angela and George Wagner have all been charged with
eight counts of aggravated murder. If convicted, they, like Jake,
will spend the rest of their lives in prison. Never
have I seen anything even remotely close to this case.
I've been involved in some bad ones, but this one
(29:52):
is by far the worst. One of the many things
that's so unique about this offense is you do have
generations of family members just taken out, completely excused. Hard
to imagine a fact scenario more bizarre than this one.
It's it's so unique in so many ways. One of
(30:12):
them is the enormous burden the trials will place on
the legal teams and the Ohio criminal justice system. You're
trying the case in a small county with limited resources.
I don't know how they're going to do it. It's
just going to be a logistical nightmare. Can the Wagner
lawyers work together on the defense or does it all
have to be separate? They can work together, and that
(30:33):
happens sometimes when you have code defendants. I think at
some point you run into some strategy problems. But to
a certain extent they can. But the lawyer obviously has
to zealously represent his client. But if it's in this
client's best interest to work with the other lawyers, yeah,
they definitely would. Witness testimony could also prove to be
(30:54):
a challenge. You're going to have witness burnout because many
most problem of the witnesses in one trial will be
witnesses in the other. And you know that's a that's
a burden upon the witnesses, But the prosecution has no
choice that they have to go forward in that nature.
Another obstacle seating a jury of twelve impartial Pike County residents.
(31:18):
Here's Chris speaking to reporter James Pilcher. It's Ohio state
law that you initially have to try and see a
jury in the county the crime was committed. Correct. So
Angela Wagner has already requested that her trial be moved
out of Pike County, but under high legal procedures, you
have to try to see the jury in the county
where the crime was committed before you're allowed to move it.
(31:38):
So they've got a pull from any jury pool of
registered voters, will narrow it down to twelve plus a
couple of alternates, and that process can take anywhere from
three days to a week, depending on the complexity of
the case. I mean, that's going to be really difficult,
isn't it. I mean there's only I think what twenty
seven twenty eight thousand residents in all of Pike County.
You have to pick jurors for cases out of a
(32:01):
jury pool that small. I would not be surprised to
see them have to move some of these trials to
another county. Again, here's Mike Allen. That's probably the judge's
biggest headache in this case is to ultimately be able
to see separate juries that can be fair both to
the state and to the defense, because I think you'd
(32:23):
be hard pressed to find any county in the state
of Ohio that just was not inundated with media coverage
about this. But it's important to keep this in mind.
If a potential juror says under oath that, yes, I
have seen things in the media about this, but I
can divorce myself from those things and render a fair
(32:47):
and impartial verdict based upon the evidence that we see
from the witness stand, the testimony, and the instructions given
by the judge. That's then a good and acceptable jury.
And that's the only way that this case is going
to work. Because unless you're living in some kind of
a cave, I don't care who you are, you've heard
(33:09):
about it, and you know you're just not going to
be able to seek a jury of twelve in any
of these cases where they've not heard anything about it.
How are each of the cases likely to affect the other?
Are there things that we should be keeping an eye
on the first one that goes I think has the
tougher road, and the guy going last or next to last,
(33:31):
they're going to have an advantage by knowing which way
the judge will rule on evidentiary motions and things of
that nature. They'll have the benefit of watching the take
so to speak, like a like a football coach would.
But there could be one overlooked factor that determines the
outcome of the cases, the drive of the prosecuting attorneys.
(33:53):
When you see a case like this and see the
position these young kids have been put in, what does
that mean you feel when you see a case like this,
it's just absolutely heartbreaking. It just is because you just
know that that is going to permanently affect that child.
There's no way that it couldn't. But a prosecutor's driven
(34:16):
by justice for the victim and the victim's family. But
if you have a particularly violent and hand his crime
like you have here, it's tough. But as a prosecutor, honestly,
it makes you want to work all the harder to
get a conviction. And yeah, that's just the way it is.
(34:37):
We've heard Special Agent Ryan Scheiderer mentioned witnesses who are
close to the Wagner's and excerpts of his testimony. Since
Jake Wagner's confession, we haven't heard anything from grandmother of
the accused, Frederica Wagner. Last season, we talked about how
she was arrested on obstruction of justice and perjury charges
pretending to bulletproof est she purchased for her son, Billy Wagner.
(34:58):
Prosecutors believe she purchased the best for him to use
in the killings. Her charges were dropped after hearing in
twenty nineteen, as the prosecution feared not being able to
try the case before the two hundred and seventy days
Speedy Trial statute. But her case isn't closed yet, Frederica.
They've indicated in court documents that they may charge her
again with obstruction. Frederica Wagner has vehemently defended her family's innocence,
(35:23):
but is it possible that she knows more about what
happened the night of April twenty first, twenty sixteen than
she's let on. Depending on what Jake Wagner knows and reveals,
it's possible that grandmother Frederica Wagner could be looking at
new charges. Do you know what Jake pleading guilty, how
that will impact his grandmother, Well, they can always be
(35:45):
reindicted if there's additional new evidence. He kind of seems
to be like he's the key to this entire case.
So yeah, I suppose it's possible. To our knowledge, Frederico
Wagner has not been implicated in any other crimes, nor
has she made any plea deals with the prosecution. But
the same camp be said for the other grandmother who
(36:06):
was charged in the case. Rita Newcome. Angela Wagner's mother,
had initially told investigators that she had notarized and signed
some custody documents for the child that Jake and Hannah
shared in the event that they died. But then later
as her trial approached, on the day of trial, all
of the sudden, we were all out there ready to go,
and the trial was canceled. And then a short time
(36:29):
later she pleaded guilty, and in court the prosecution outlined
how they said that Rita admitted that she had lied
and that her daughter Angela, had asked her to lie
about signing and notarizing those custody documents. Here's a statement
Rita newcomade during her plea deal. As anyone promised you
anything at all, or threatened you in any way at
(36:50):
all in order to induce you to withdraw your former
plea of not guilty entered to the original charge of
obstructing justice I degree felly in count four, and to
enter a plea of guilty to the amended charge of
obstructing official business, a misdemeanor of the second degree. No,
(37:12):
I just feel that it's not a good Christian thank
to line, and I couldn't he put it anymore. This
is all despite Angela Wagner's repeated attempts to further manipulate
her mother. During court hearings for Angela's mother, Rita Newcomb,
it was stated that Angela Wagner was on jail calls
(37:32):
telling her mother, you don't have to testify against us.
Mike Allen told Stephanie about the challenges Rita Newcomb's testimony
could present if the trials move forward. If it's obvious
to the trial judge that she doesn't want to be
testifying to the state, the judge can and probably would,
designate her as a hostile witness. What is a hostile
(37:53):
witness if the prosecution has to call a witness to
establish or help establish one of the elements of the offense,
and that witnesses someone who's more sympathetic with the defense.
In all likelihood than the judge would designate that person
a hostile witness, giving the prosecutor the opportunity to ask
leading questions. So it's not a matter whether they get
(38:15):
up on the stand and act at crazy or act
like an idiot. It's a matter of is this person,
you know, going to cooperate with whoever is calling them.
Another possibility is hearing from one of the long rumored
informants we discussed last season. Mike Allen discussed the role
informants usually play in cases like the Wagner's. Are you
(38:35):
able to Mike just tell us what an informant is.
It usually is a situation where they go to the
police with some information. I mean police can seek out
people too and you know, just say hey, you know,
you tell us what you know about this, And I
mean it happens both ways, but more often than not,
it's it's the police know that somebody there's a good
chance somebody would know something, and they seek that person out.
(38:59):
But the thing of it is it's a confidential and
reliable informant. So it has to be someone that you
can build a case that they are reliable. At George
Wagner's bond hearing last year, Agent Ryan Scheiderer told the
court that one informant had disclosed a deadly plot that
the Wagner family was planning on carrying out. It included
(39:20):
then Attorney General Mike Dwine, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader,
and Scheiderer himself. There is a witness that testified that
she was present when George, his brother, Jake, his mom,
and his dad were basically organizing a retaliation plan should
(39:40):
they get arrested and charged, specifically targeting myself and Dwine
and share Reader. Okay, And according to the person who
gave you this information, when was that stage summer of
twenty eighteen. Anette Levy heard Scheiderer's testimony that day. I
(40:02):
think there's supposed to be a couple of informants in
this case, and one of them, which is very interesting,
happens to be a woman who married Jake Wagner when
the family went to Alaska. Let's stop here for another
quick break. We'll be back in a moment. At times,
(40:27):
it is hard to not be discouraged. Climate change, abortion vans,
rising inequality, attacks on the LGTBQ plus community. That's why
you march vote, write your congress person and try to
do your part. One small thing you can do is
switch your mobile phone to Credo Mobile. Credo Mobile is
America's only progressive mobile phone company, and they donate a
(40:48):
portion of their proceeds to progressive nonprofit groups each month
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and so many more. When you join Credo Mobile, you're
not just getting service on the nation's best network. You're
joining the phone company that's better for all people and
the planet. Just by using your phone, you are funding
the causes you care most about at no extra cost
(41:08):
to you. Learn more at credomobile dot com. And right now,
when you switch your phone to Creto, you can get
a two hundred and fifty dollars prepaid card and they'll
donate fifty dollars to the Transgender Law Center when you
use the Code Podcast fifty. Together we can make a difference.
That's credomobile dot Com Code Podcast fifty. Interesting and relatable topics,
(41:29):
knowledgeable guests, highly entertaining, and informative. Words that describe CNN's
podcast Chasing Life with Doctor Sanjay Gupta. As I talked
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I am an actor, a podcast as host, a mom,
and honestly very tired most of the time. And I'm
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Katie's husband. And we're so excited because we're the new
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we can narrow our emotions down to that, then we
can take some action. We're going to talk to the
experts who will help everyday people like us explore the
mysteries behind our own sleep. So listen to Chasing Sleep
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts. Last season, we talked about the Wagner suspicious
(44:07):
move to Alaska in June of twenty seventeen, at the
height of the Roden murder investigation. They said this had
been planned for some time. The boys were looking for
good jobs up there, and then Jake met a woman
at church. They became married. And in the discovery documents
that detail what was handed over by the state to
(44:28):
the Wagner attorneys, it states that there are several interviews
between a Bureau of Criminal Investigations agent and the woman
that Jake Wagner married while he was living in Alaska,
So there are a number of interviews with her and
recorded phone calls between this woman and Jake Wagner. What
(44:49):
about the witnesses who were left alive at the scene,
the Roden children who were spared that fateful night in
twenty sixteen. One of the kids was a three year
old toddler. If that child witnessed the murder, I don't
know if he said something when the investadors came in
that pointed to possibly someone in the Wagner family, because
they would have all known each other. You know, he's
(45:12):
eight now. If he had any memory or had said
something at the time when they found him. Is there
any potential that he might be called as a witness
although eight Now in Ohio, the rule is a child
under the age of ten is presumed incompetent to testify. Now,
if a judge does what they call a bordier of
(45:34):
that potential witness and determines that the young person does
know the difference between telling the truth and telling a lie,
it's possible that the judge could permit the testimony. But boy,
any defense attorney are going to fight like crazy to
keep something like that out. It comes down to the reliability.
Is it a reliable statement? Can you rely on something
(45:56):
that a three year old saw and something that an
eight year old, years after the fact is trying to explain.
It's tough, not impossible to get a statement like that in,
but I think highly unlikely. Mike Allen points it out
a compelling entry in one of the discovery documents that
implies another piece of the evidentiary puzzle. Is there one
(46:17):
piece of evidence just based on what you've seen in
terms of the discovery list, that is the aha or
something that really surprised you. Yeah, there's definitely one thing,
says trash Poll from June eighth, twenty and seventeen, and
that can only mean one thing that DNA is involved
in this case. What a trash poll is when somebody
(46:42):
sets their trash out at the curb, they do not
have a privacy interest anymore in that trash. So it's
open season for the police if they want to go
rooting through somebody's trash. And that's how in many instances,
that's how law enforcement gets DNA evidence is from trash polls.
(47:03):
That's the thing that closes the deal, right that that
like closes the case essentially. That's the part of the
CSI thing that you know, jurors watch and that's one
thing that's accurate. I mean, if it gets into evidence,
it's it's just devastating. Another revelation we're likely to witness
at the trial is more information about the rodents autopsy reports.
(47:26):
Though the documents will released months after the murders in
twenty sixteen, they were heavily redacted due to a gag
utter imposed by the judge on the case. This is
just a situation where you know, the trial judge who
has to shepherd these trials through fairly doesn't want the
public getting this information before trial. One of the reasons
(47:46):
being you don't want a tainted jury pool, and of
course prosecution they don't want to telegraph anything from that
autopsy with respect to their strategy. Reporter James p Ulture
told us what journalists were able to glean from the
initial releases. He basically laid out where they were found,
how many times they were shot. You know where they
(48:08):
were shot, and you know they did list specifically where
the kids, the young kids were found. So what can
we expect from the full reports. A good autopsy, I'll
tell you a lot about how the victim lived and
how they died, and gets a pivotal critical piece of
the investigation and possibly reveal information that maybe only the
(48:32):
killer would know. But the most powerful part of the
state's case could come from the prosecutor's recreation of the
events of April twenty first, twenty sixteen. According to forensics
expert Joseph Morgan, this narrative helps give a voice to
each member of the slain family. It's something that we'll
be revealing in real time as the trials for Billy
(48:54):
Angela and George Wagner proceed. In the case of a
masker in Piked and every single human remain every body
that was there has an individual tale to be told.
The prosecution is trying to paint a picture here and
(49:15):
they're going to do that through these bodies there. That's
going to be the vessel they're going to travel through here.
And the more vibrant that the prosecution can make that picture,
the more perfective. It shocks the conscience of just people
that go about their normal day life. They don't expect
this type of thing to happen, and it is pure.
(49:41):
More on that next time. For more information on the
case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie
Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County
is executive produced by Stephanie Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong.
Editing and sound designed by executive producer Sir Jared Aston.
Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew Becker and Chris Graves.
(50:05):
The Piked and Massacre Returned to Pike County is a
production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows. Since her role as White House Correspondent,
Caitlyn Collins has never been afraid to dictie. She's a reliable,
(50:25):
deeply sourced reporter and is always willing to hold the
powerful accountable. On her new CNN show, The Source with
Caitlyn Collins, Caitlyn is bringing that tenacious spirit to primetime.
She's chasing the facts, connecting with her rolodex of sources,
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(50:48):
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