July 6, 2022 • 32 mins
With more and more information about the Wagner trials becoming public, we examine the first DNA evidence the state has made public against the alleged killer family. How will this evidence come into play once George and Billy Wagner enter the courtroom? Plus, with Forensic Death Investigator Joseph Scott Morgan, we study parallels between the Rhoden murder and a crime from over 50 years ago.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
A member of the Wagner family, was back in the
Pike County Courthouse today. His attorneys argued, George Wagner, the
fourth did not shoot and kill any of the Rodent
family members. Judge, in our motion, we have asked the
court to Dismisscounts one through eight and or the accompanying
death specifications which make this case a death penalty. As
(00:23):
part of the pleadio Jake Wagner reached with prosecutors neither
he nor his brother or their parents will face the
death penalty as long as Jake testifies in court. George
did not shoot or kill anybody. He did not pull
a trigger once. Jake, on the other hand, has admitted
to killing at least five people personally and shooting a sixth.
(00:46):
Special Prosecutor Angie Kneppa argued the murder charges and death
penalty specifications against George Wagner should remain until Jake Wagner
testifies on the record in a courtroom. Surviving members of
the Rodent family anxiously await for a search to close
the case, but won't ever erase the heartache they feel.
(01:09):
This is the piped In Massacre season three, episode seven,
Breadcrumbs Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios, with
Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane. In this episode, we follow
the trail of breadcrumbs left behind during these hearings. Some
of them lead into very dark corners that may only
(01:31):
be fully illuminated once the trial begins. And no issue
has cast a larger shadow over the case than what
Angela and Jake's testimony may reveal about George and Billy's involvement.
The state has made a bargain with the shooter of
at least five people to kill her at at least
five people in this case, then we believe it's own
(01:52):
constitutional improper and abuse are to pursue the death tony
against George. When they admitted he didn't shoot anybody. You're
not stipulating that George did not shoot anybody because you
don't know that. We are simply stipulating, in sporting proper
George did not shoot anybody. Maybe that's supports distinction. Now,
(02:14):
Judge Deering ended up denying the defense motion filed by
George Wagner's attorney. Now, we also learned that all four
of the suspects were offered the same chance to negotiate
a deal if they agreed to tell prosecutors what happened
the night the Rodent family members were killed. These murders
in Pike County, Ohio. It's not something they just entered into,
(02:35):
you know. They're not just you know, sitting around with
a few cans of beer oup and say let's go
slaughter to Rodents. That's not what happened. This took planning.
You're talking about the murder of eight other human beings.
They're gonna go into quite graphic detail about, first off,
the kids being locked up in this house with the
deceased remains of their parents. They're going to talk about
(03:00):
the bloodstains that were on the children. They're going to
talk about how their children were weeping and crying. It's
going to be incredibly impactful. It'll be like getting hit
in the chest with a ten pound slash ner. You're
not going to have a totality of the execution of
this agreement until they get up on the stand and
they do what they say that they were going to do,
(03:23):
you know, and absent that, then it's a game changer.
Defense attorney, former prosecutor, judge and Fox nineteen Legal analyst
Mike Allen has been following the Keys closely. We asked
them about Angela and Jake's proffers and if their testimonies
need to line up closely with the prosecutions, investigative and
forensic findings. The answer to that is yes. I mean,
(03:48):
if there's what they call a proper made by a defendant,
where the defendant will say, well, this is what I
would testify to, it's got to line up, not a
resolutely perfectly, but generally it's got to line up with
what the prosecutions. They're probably meeting with Angela and Jake regularly.
(04:09):
You don't want to screw this up. You don't want
to make some kind of comment to somebody, anybody that
you're in jail with, even the prison staff, that you're
coming in contact with him in daily basis, anything that
could hamper this trial. They want to keep this thing
as pristine as they possibly can. Going into what are
the prosecution's going to do with George and Billy, here's
(04:29):
producer Chris Graves speaking with forensic death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan.
If those proffers are to be believed, it would seem
that Billy did the other three. Yeah, yeah, it would
seem that and Jake admitted to these killings if he
facilitated the deaths of five people, which he's admitted to,
(04:51):
and we still have three that are unaccounted for it,
and I think Money's own Billy at this point in time,
he's front runner. I think that the State's going to
want their pound of flesh in this case because of
everything that has happened relatively, all of the deception, all
of this horror that has come down upon this little
rural county in southern Ohio. I think the people of
(05:14):
Ohio probably are going to demand it. The Rodent family
case is going to be that case that eighty years
from now, people are going to sit around campfire and
tell stories about. Another motion, Motion seventy six, filed by
the defense, deals with the admissibility of specific evidence and
(05:34):
expert testimony that the prosecution hopes will seal the deal
for convincing the jury of Georgia's involvement. The prosecution quickly
filed a memorandum stating that their case for why the
evidence should be admissible and why Motion seventy six should
be struck down. Here's Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor
and Flan again about the shoeprint evidence. For every motion
(06:01):
at the defense file, there may be a response or
there may be another motion filed by the state that
seeks something. And in those motions at times that you
will glean some additional facts that maybe you have not
heard from other sources. It's like finding little breadcrumbs to
this puzzle we've all been trying to figure out. We
(06:24):
took this new evidence and compared it to some of
the facts already known in the case. Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
This is the relevant factual background in the memorandum. Eight
members of the Rodent family were murdered in their homes
on the night of April twenty twenty sixteen. Investigators located
shoeprints at two properties four oh seven seven Union Hill
(06:44):
Road and three one two two Union Hill Road. These
shoe prints had pools of dried blood belonging to the victims. Okay,
so let's dig into this just a little deeper. The
locations where these prints were found were at the homes
of Chris Roden Senior and then Dana Rodin. We've been
to this location and their running distance from each other.
(07:05):
When we visited piked In, we actually did the drive
of Union Hill Road to map out the different crime scenes.
Union Hill Road lies about twenty minutes west of downtown
piked In off of Route thirty two. You exit the highways,
then double back and head into a patchwork of forests
and fields, and about half a mile up the road
on the right is when you first see three one
(07:27):
two two Union Hill Road, the property that Chris road
And Senior bought for Dana and the kids just months
before the murders, and we talked about this. That's also
the location where Hannah May Roden had her baby shower
just leading up to the murders. So moving into this
home was a really happy and exciting thing for Dana.
(07:48):
Just down the road from that is four oh seven
seven Union Hill Road, and that's where Chris Roden Senior
was living and as we know, his cousin Gary was
staying with him. This was a very brutal crime scene.
Were pools of blood everywhere, and in these pools of blood,
what police found were two shoeprints, one a size ten
and a half and the other a size eleven. According
(08:11):
to the report, a size eleven Walmart Athletic Works brand
shoe left a print. Here's Joseph Scott Morgan. I went
back and I thought that brand sounded familiar. And the
reason it was familiar to me is that when my
son Noah got one of his first jobs, it was
at Chick fil A and they require you to wear
those non slip shoes. We went to Walmart to buy
(08:33):
him a pair, and that's what they were, and I
just looked that up. They're primarily Athletic Works shoes. Their
non slip souls is what they are. They're black in color,
they kind of look like athletic shoes, and visiting their website,
they go for like thirteen bucks a pair or something
like that. It's something that's easily acquired. The size eleven
(08:54):
shoe was actually found in both Christina and Data's home,
which is extremely significant because there's been so much speculation
about this. Did they divide up and each go to
a different location or did they do it together, and
that's what this evidence would imply. Yeah, to further knock
point stuff. What they also found was that the size
(09:16):
eleven shoe had a mix of multiple victims blood in it,
which again speaks to your point that whoever was wearing
that shoe went to multiple road in houses for Joseph Morgan.
It brought to mind another infamous family massacre. I urge
anybody that has never read In Cold Blood to go
(09:37):
read this book, specifically because of the forensics. Capodi did
such a fantastic job and given such a great description
of this horrible scene where this family was absolutely butchered,
not too dissimilar from what happened in Piked, and only
happened in one single home in Kansas all those years back.
They had one piece of evidence that really tied everything
together that scene. In Cold Blood is a non fiction
(10:00):
novel by author Truman Capote that was published in nineteen
sixty six. It details the nineteen fifty nine murders of
the Clutter family in small town, Kansas. And you might
have read this book in high school or have heard
of it. It's really one of the first true crime
stories that people sank their teeth into, and I would
surmise that any true crime TV series or podcast or
(10:25):
documentary really should give some credit to this one, because
without it, I don't think the genre would be what
it is. There are actually a lot of parallels between
the piked and massacre and the clutter of family murders
one the family aspect. Also to the brutality three the
victims being shot in the head, and just the sheer
(10:46):
amount of bloodshed. It's chilling. For those of you who
aren't familiar with the story, we'll give you a little
bit of a top line about it. It all started
in the fall of nineteen fifty nine when these two
x cons named Perry Smith and Richard Hiccock drove across
Kansas on a tip they had received from one of
their fellow inmates when they were in jail. While the
(11:07):
duel was still in jail, they met a man nam
Floyd Wells, who had claimed to them he had once
worked as a farmhand for a man named Herb Clutter, who,
according to Floyd, had kept thousands of dollars in a
safe in his basement. And that is all that Smith
and Hiccock needed to hear, And eventually, when they got
out of jail, they drove four hundred miles to the
Clutter residence and snuck into the house as the family
(11:30):
was sleeping. They started by tying up mister and Missus
Clutter and their two teenage children, Kenyon and Bonnie. It's
every parent's worst nightmare. I can't help being reminded of
what the Rodent family must have been feeling the night
that they were murdered, thinking about them in their homes
and having a loud, banging sound and all of a sudden,
(11:50):
there's gun in your face. And it turns out there
actually was not a safe. It was a total lie.
Or her rumor and Hiccoc, who had a very short temper,
flew into a raid. And it's so sad because they
must have decided beforehand that they wouldn't lead any witnesses alive,
so all they got away with was a radio in
maybe fifty dollars, but still they decided they had to
(12:12):
kill the entire family. Yeah, once they made this decision,
they kind of went one by one to the family
members who were in various points of the home. And
they started with mister Clutter, who was bound and gagged
on a box spring in the basement. Harry Smith slit
his throat and then shot him in the head. They
then went to the teenage son, Kenyon, who was bound
in another part of the basement and shot him to death,
(12:34):
and then they of course headed upstairs to kill mom
Nancy Clutter, and sadly, after hearing both her parents and
her brother being murdered, Bonnie Clutter was shot in the head.
Her hands were tied in front of her, she was gagged,
and get this, they actually tucked her into her bed.
It's almost like they were trying to make her comfortable
(12:56):
in the moments leading up to her murder. Another similarity
to the road in case seems to be the sheer
violence of all of this. To shoot someone and slip
their throat is the definition of overkill. In the same
way shooting members of the Rodan family multiple times in
the face is just violence for violences sake. Something else
(13:18):
that we should note that at some point in the night,
Perry Smith stepped in mister Clutter's blood in the basement
and left a partial footprint that again seems eerily similar
to this footprint that we've been discussing in the Rodent homes.
A lot of creepy stuff went on in this case. Anyway,
He was executed down there, and Perry, who was one
(13:39):
of the killers, was wearing a boot that had been
resold in this boot. When you hear this name, this
name in forensic parlance, it's a benchmark moment. It's called
the cat Paul print. When he stepped on that box,
he transferred a print to that box with his boot
(14:00):
that had transferred from blood onto the surface, and it
left that Cat Paul print. Perry Smith's boots were later recovered.
Not so, and piked In the defense has struck gold here. Really,
I think, so, what makes you think that, Well, guess
(14:20):
what they found. They had Perry's boots in this case,
they ain't got nothing and Piked and they don't have
the shoes. They don't have that to compare to in
the Clutter case they did. And I'm drawing these conclusions
because I think, in my opinion at least, that this case,
much like the Clutter case, is going to be a
blood bath. The prosecution is betting that their footprint expert,
(14:45):
William Bosniak, can tie the bloody prints back to the
Wagners without having the actual footwear for his analysis. Bosniak
bought the same Athletic Works model size and shoe at
Walmart about a thousand miles away from piked In and
his homestate of Florida. The defense is trying to raise
doubt about the process by which Bosniak determined the match,
(15:07):
as well as about Bosniak's actual qualifications as an expert.
To do this, they've requested what's called a Daubard hearing
here again and Flanagan Dalbert is just the name of
a case where some guidelines were set forth by the
US Supreme Court. And it was done with the idea
(15:30):
that we don't want junk science going to a jury
just because someone was declared an expert and said that
this was his expert opinion. And so they gave some
guidelines for attorneys and courts, and so some of the
guidelines aren't what would be called Dalbert factors. Some of
these factors include whether the theory or technique in question
(15:53):
can be and has been tested, whether it has been
subject to peer review and publication, known potential error rate,
and whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within the forensic
scientific community. Well, one of the attacks that the defense
made is that this is not the shoe. The shoe
that he compared to the print is a sample shoe
(16:16):
that he bought later. They would want to do that
because they see that as very damaging evidence. Understand, the
defense's job is to exploit these small little issues along
the way. They don't have to destroy the whole case.
You know, when you start to talk about you know, well,
they've given so much value to this piece of evidence,
(16:37):
they're going to try to paint it that way. If
this trial happens down there in southern Ohio and Appalachia,
people that inhabit those regions, their ears perk up when
they hear an accent from other places, or they see
people that don't quite fit in. And all he has
to do is say, you know, this s guy, he's
with the Feds. Why the hell are you going to
(16:57):
go outside of your own law enforcement Emily and the
crime lab there in state, in contract with an outside
expert in this particular case. Ultimately, Judge Daring ruled for
the defense that the Dobbard hearing could go forward. Joseph
Scott Morgan explains that if the judge rules in favor
of the defense, a jury would never hear any of
(17:20):
the evidence about the shoes. Defense is writtenes sing up
to state that this gentleman is going to testify to
size ten and a half and to size eleventh athletic
works shoes. He's going to testify to those items and
then he's marrying those up to the photographs of the
(17:41):
shoe prints that's seen to these individuals. They're saying that
this isn't going to hold water forensically, then we can
conclude that perhaps that bit of evidence will be excluded.
But listen, this is the defense. This is what they do.
If I hire a defense attorney, I'm assuming that's their
(18:05):
job to basically throw anything against the wall and hope
that it sticks. I would imagine it's a little bit
of an upful battle defending someone like George Wagner because
there's a lot of evidence against him, and so the
defense attorney is just trying to find ways around that
and ways to cast reasonable doubt. Because with a jury,
(18:26):
you don't need to prove that someone's innocent. All you
need to do is poke enough holes in the prosecution
story that there is a reasonable doubt that George Wagner
did not murder eight people. We think it's important to
go through the different pieces of evidence that the prosecution
is allegedly putting forward because it really does play a
huge part in this case. The first thing that we
(18:47):
think seems very relevant is these shoe receipts. Now as
a result of a search warrant executed on the vehicles
and the trailers belonging to the Wagner family. Investigators located
a Walmart receipt for a location in Waverley, Ohio. The
data on the receipt is April seventh, twenty sixteen, which,
as we know, is just a couple of weeks before
the murders. The receipt was for two pairs of gray
(19:10):
men's Walmart branded shoes with belcrow straps in sizes ten
and a half and eleven. Officials were able to obtain
and preserve surveillance photographs and receipts of all recent purchases
of that model and those sizes of the shoe in
numerous Walmart stores throughout southern Ohio. At some point, an
expert review the photographs obtained from a Walmart in Waverley, Ohio,
(19:34):
and it included still images of the customers who purchased
athletic work shoes that day, and the customer purchasing those
shoes in this particular surveillance shot is none other than
Angela Wagner. They actually show her exiting the Waverley Walmart
on April seventh, twenty sixteen, at approximately the exact same
(19:54):
time on the receipt found on the Wagner property. And
this day is so significant because, as you know, Hannah
May Roden was having her baby shower at her new
house where she lived with her mom, which we talked
about earlier. It is pretty damning evidence, to say the least.
We were told at some point that Angela Wagner chose
(20:17):
those specific shoes for her boys to wear, because they
were allegedly the exact same shoes that Dana Roden's brother
wore to work. And it's been speculated that perhaps Angela
Wagner was literally trying to set up Dana Roden's brother
for these murders. I have a question, what do you
(20:40):
think has more weight in the courtroom, the science and
the facts of the case or Jake Wagner's version of events. Well,
it all depends on what Jake has given them at
this point. And Mama, from a forensic standpoint, I can't
wait to see this. They've already shown their hand to
a certain degree. They're saying, we're going after the forensic
evidence right now. We know it's footwear. What else is
on the table, or we're gonna talk about ballistics because
(21:02):
that's the agency for bringing about death here. You know,
we're talking about firing multiple rounds into all of these people.
Reporter Angeanette Levy sees potential implications for George and Billy
Wagner if the evidence is allowed. I just know from
one of the hearings back in August of twenty twenty,
(21:24):
they were saying, you have no evidence against George the
fourth and the same with Billy. Billy's attorneys said in
court documents, you have no evidence against our guy. There's
nothing in the discovery that ties him to this. So
when you look at it, if we're looking at shoe
impression evidence, those could be things that maybe tie them
to the crime scenes because we have that whole issue
of the state saying and Angela Wagner at confirming that
(21:48):
she purchased these shoes at Walmart for them to use.
So those items could tie George and Billy to the crimes.
Because the Dabbard hearing could affect both father and son,
Judge Deerring raised the possibility that they both appear in
court at the same time. I would think that's going
to be potentially the most interesting thing to come out
(22:10):
of the Daubard hearing. So you're going to have the
singular hearing about the scientific evidence, and then it's going
to be presented at two separate capital murder trials. We're
going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
(22:34):
Judge Deerring decided to have two separate Dabbard cases for
George and Billy Wagner, avoiding a father son faced face
for the first time since their arrests almost four years ago.
Here's Joseph Morgan. What if they come to a conclusion,
let's just say it has to do with footwear, they
(22:55):
come to the conclusion X relative to the findings in
George's case and validity of the evidence and how was examined,
collected and analyzed. You've got the dynamic of a separate
legal team there. They might have a completely different view
of this. When you're accused of something, and I'm just
speaking strictly about forensics here, you have to be able
to hold forth against the entire might of the state
(23:19):
and what they bring to bear their forensic resources. George's
team is there to save George, they're not there to
save Billy. The morning of the trial, William Bosniak arrived
early and took a seat while the defense and prosecution
organized their arguments. Bosniak is fit with a head of
(23:40):
silver hair. You might guess he's ten years younger than
his actual age of seventy six. Stud call, mister Tom
the testimony. You are about the institute the truth for
whole truth and nothing about the truth? Answer? And you got?
I did? Can you tell us what your vocation is.
(24:02):
I'm a forensic consultant and examiner. I specialize in footwear
entire impression evidence. And can you tell us how abo
you see big doing that? Since nineteen seventy three, George
the Fourth avoids eye contact with Bosniak. Angie Kneppa goes
(24:23):
through the very standard procedure of having an expert describe
his resume to the court. He speaks for a full
hour and a half on his qualifications. Bosniak has done
thousands of footwear impression examinations during his career with the
FBI and in the twenty plus years of consulting since
his retirement in nineteen ninety eight. Footwear shoes of people
(24:46):
leave impressions. Some of these are on two dimensional surfaces,
where shoes acquire material like dust, dirt, mud, blood, and
so forth, and then they read deposited in subsequent steps,
typically the few step in a pool of blood. The
first few steps are pretty heavy and messy. I have
a lot of blood, and then eventually each step some
(25:09):
of that blood is transferred to the floor and consumed,
so the next step doesn't have as much. Bosniak explains
that he can identify specific brands, models, and sizes of
shoes even if they aren't recovered. He does this by
comparing or recovered prints to the molds used by manufacturers
to make the soles of any given shoe. In shoes
(25:32):
that are not popular, a manufacturer may only make one
mold for most or all sizes. The basic design will
be the same. It's computer generated has been for years,
so it's overall design and its physical size of that
design from all of those molds will virtually be indistinguishable.
(25:55):
But in some shoe designs they also add something that
is known as generically as texture. At this point, Bosniac
fires up a video he narrated. Texture is broadly defined
as a shallow pattern sometimes found on selective surfaces of
a footwear outshole. Adding texture to a mold is a
(26:18):
separate process. The video shows two workers in Southeast Asia.
They each sit at their own workbench with a small
hammer and all they're punching little divots into the shoe
molds that will later be used to cast rubber soles.
During the molding process, there are two predominant methods of
adding texture to a mold surface. One of those are
(26:40):
shown here, involves mechanically striking a pattern into the surface
using a steel dye or similar tool. This is known
as hand stiffly. Believe it or not, those little patterns
of the fine detail on the bottom of your shoes
are mostly hand carved, and no two are alike. A
size of level and mold created by one person will
(27:02):
have minute differences from a size eleven created by another person.
This goes even for the same brand and model shoe.
It creates a very specific footprint. What's great about this
evidence is that it's what we call it the monstrable
And when you have demonstrable evidence, that's a big, big
(27:23):
test of its reliability. If you live with Florida and
you're asked to do an examinations with Florida, how can
you make a comparison to a chie print impression? It
was left because manufacturers sell their shoes all over the country,
(27:44):
so if they're sold at one Walmart, you're probably sold
at the majority of them. If I know they're Walmart shoes,
then that's the obvious place that I would go to first.
Angie cannep arrests. Now it's time for defense attorney Rob
Junk to convince the judge that Bosniak is not a
(28:05):
reliable expert. So what I'm hearing from you? Then, in
doing this test, you're required to have a mold standard
from the factories, right, No, in some cases, I just
simply go to the store and buy some or get
permission to make photographs and take standards of the shoes
(28:25):
they have. And why not go to the manufact That's
not always possible, they're at other countries mostly. But unless
you have obtained all of the molds, how do you
know or how can you be certain that the impression
you have is a one particular mold or shoe that
(28:46):
you have purchased from the store. I mean, this is
just through your experience, is that right? You don't know
this to be I know this to be certain because
I've observed it. I've worked cases like this, I've interacted
with manufacturers, numerous manufacturers. I've been in factories asking questions
like this, and I've observed it over and over again
(29:07):
and used this process over and over again, and it's
a certain as anything can be. The defense works tirelessly
to see if Bosniak will slip up. The defense then
moves on to the issue of not having the actual
shoes used in the crime. Can you explain to the quarters,
if we're looking at a Walmart, how reliable it is
(29:31):
to make a comparison ring match between a Walmart store
and Florida and a shoe that a Walmart store maybe
in California d sell. Sure they came from the same hold,
they just got distributed to all over the country. And
although the impression corresponded with the shoe that you purchased
(29:53):
from Walmart, you cannot say that that impression came from
the athletic work shoe or a right. Yes, it's an
athletic workshoe that has the texture that I purchased in
that I compared and they corresponds with the crime scene.
(30:13):
After three hours of questioning, Judge Deering has heard enough.
I think I'm just going to rule an emotion. I mean,
I could include the court concludes that the footwear impression
evidence has explained and testified too, but William Budsiac satisfies
the criteria of evidence rule seven and two and Dallart
Merrill for the admissibility of expert testimony. Let's stop here
(30:40):
for another break with the Dobbard hearing over and motion
seventy six denied. It's guaranteed the jury will hear the
testimony of William Bosniac his positive identification linking the shoes
bought at Walmart by Angela Wagner and the footprints at
(31:02):
the crime scene containing the blood of multiple victims. This
may have far rich in consequences for the entire Wagner family. Regardless,
jurors will still see Jake's plea correct, and that would
have its own narrative in and of itself, and maybe
then the defense would poke holes in that. You're gonna
(31:22):
get more than that from Jake. He's gonna be on
the stand. He's got to stand and deliver. That's the
only way they made to steal him and Mama gonna
be on stand. Man, You're gonna have a five time
murderer all to stand given testimony against his daddy, against
his brother, I don't ever recall that I've ever heard
of case like this, not in my memory, not in
(31:44):
recent history, at least anywhere in America. The stakes at
this point are so incredibly high it's unimaginable. More on
that next time. If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre,
listen to our other hits series, Crazy and Love. New
episodes are every Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcasts. For
(32:07):
more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram at
Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre is produced by
Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Greaves, Scott de Graw, and
me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tui.
Music by Jared Aston. The Piked and Massacre is a
(32:30):
production of Katie Studios and I Heartradio. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
A member of the Wagner family, was back in the
Pike County Courthouse today. His attorneys argued, George Wagner, the
fourth did not shoot and kill any of the Rodent
family members. Judge, in our motion, we have asked the
court to Dismisscounts one through eight and or the accompanying
death specifications which make this case a death penalty. As
(00:23):
part of the pleadio Jake Wagner reached with prosecutors neither
he nor his brother or their parents will face the
death penalty as long as Jake testifies in court. George
did not shoot or kill anybody. He did not pull
a trigger once. Jake, on the other hand, has admitted
to killing at least five people personally and shooting a sixth.
(00:46):
Special Prosecutor Angie Kneppa argued the murder charges and death
penalty specifications against George Wagner should remain until Jake Wagner
testifies on the record in a courtroom. Surviving members of
the Rodent family anxiously await for a search to close
the case, but won't ever erase the heartache they feel.
(01:09):
This is the piped In Massacre season three, episode seven,
Breadcrumbs Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at Katie's Studios, with
Stephanie Ledecker and Jeff Shane. In this episode, we follow
the trail of breadcrumbs left behind during these hearings. Some
of them lead into very dark corners that may only
(01:31):
be fully illuminated once the trial begins. And no issue
has cast a larger shadow over the case than what
Angela and Jake's testimony may reveal about George and Billy's involvement.
The state has made a bargain with the shooter of
at least five people to kill her at at least
five people in this case, then we believe it's own
(01:52):
constitutional improper and abuse are to pursue the death tony
against George. When they admitted he didn't shoot anybody. You're
not stipulating that George did not shoot anybody because you
don't know that. We are simply stipulating, in sporting proper
George did not shoot anybody. Maybe that's supports distinction. Now,
(02:14):
Judge Deering ended up denying the defense motion filed by
George Wagner's attorney. Now, we also learned that all four
of the suspects were offered the same chance to negotiate
a deal if they agreed to tell prosecutors what happened
the night the Rodent family members were killed. These murders
in Pike County, Ohio. It's not something they just entered into,
(02:35):
you know. They're not just you know, sitting around with
a few cans of beer oup and say let's go
slaughter to Rodents. That's not what happened. This took planning.
You're talking about the murder of eight other human beings.
They're gonna go into quite graphic detail about, first off,
the kids being locked up in this house with the
deceased remains of their parents. They're going to talk about
(03:00):
the bloodstains that were on the children. They're going to
talk about how their children were weeping and crying. It's
going to be incredibly impactful. It'll be like getting hit
in the chest with a ten pound slash ner. You're
not going to have a totality of the execution of
this agreement until they get up on the stand and
they do what they say that they were going to do,
(03:23):
you know, and absent that, then it's a game changer.
Defense attorney, former prosecutor, judge and Fox nineteen Legal analyst
Mike Allen has been following the Keys closely. We asked
them about Angela and Jake's proffers and if their testimonies
need to line up closely with the prosecutions, investigative and
forensic findings. The answer to that is yes. I mean,
(03:48):
if there's what they call a proper made by a defendant,
where the defendant will say, well, this is what I
would testify to, it's got to line up, not a
resolutely perfectly, but generally it's got to line up with
what the prosecutions. They're probably meeting with Angela and Jake regularly.
(04:09):
You don't want to screw this up. You don't want
to make some kind of comment to somebody, anybody that
you're in jail with, even the prison staff, that you're
coming in contact with him in daily basis, anything that
could hamper this trial. They want to keep this thing
as pristine as they possibly can. Going into what are
the prosecution's going to do with George and Billy, here's
(04:29):
producer Chris Graves speaking with forensic death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan.
If those proffers are to be believed, it would seem
that Billy did the other three. Yeah, yeah, it would
seem that and Jake admitted to these killings if he
facilitated the deaths of five people, which he's admitted to,
(04:51):
and we still have three that are unaccounted for it,
and I think Money's own Billy at this point in time,
he's front runner. I think that the State's going to
want their pound of flesh in this case because of
everything that has happened relatively, all of the deception, all
of this horror that has come down upon this little
rural county in southern Ohio. I think the people of
(05:14):
Ohio probably are going to demand it. The Rodent family
case is going to be that case that eighty years
from now, people are going to sit around campfire and
tell stories about. Another motion, Motion seventy six, filed by
the defense, deals with the admissibility of specific evidence and
(05:34):
expert testimony that the prosecution hopes will seal the deal
for convincing the jury of Georgia's involvement. The prosecution quickly
filed a memorandum stating that their case for why the
evidence should be admissible and why Motion seventy six should
be struck down. Here's Chris Graves speaking with retired prosecutor
and Flan again about the shoeprint evidence. For every motion
(06:01):
at the defense file, there may be a response or
there may be another motion filed by the state that
seeks something. And in those motions at times that you
will glean some additional facts that maybe you have not
heard from other sources. It's like finding little breadcrumbs to
this puzzle we've all been trying to figure out. We
(06:24):
took this new evidence and compared it to some of
the facts already known in the case. Here's Stephanie and Jeff.
This is the relevant factual background in the memorandum. Eight
members of the Rodent family were murdered in their homes
on the night of April twenty twenty sixteen. Investigators located
shoeprints at two properties four oh seven seven Union Hill
(06:44):
Road and three one two two Union Hill Road. These
shoe prints had pools of dried blood belonging to the victims. Okay,
so let's dig into this just a little deeper. The
locations where these prints were found were at the homes
of Chris Roden Senior and then Dana Rodin. We've been
to this location and their running distance from each other.
(07:05):
When we visited piked In, we actually did the drive
of Union Hill Road to map out the different crime scenes.
Union Hill Road lies about twenty minutes west of downtown
piked In off of Route thirty two. You exit the highways,
then double back and head into a patchwork of forests
and fields, and about half a mile up the road
on the right is when you first see three one
(07:27):
two two Union Hill Road, the property that Chris road
And Senior bought for Dana and the kids just months
before the murders, and we talked about this. That's also
the location where Hannah May Roden had her baby shower
just leading up to the murders. So moving into this
home was a really happy and exciting thing for Dana.
(07:48):
Just down the road from that is four oh seven
seven Union Hill Road, and that's where Chris Roden Senior
was living and as we know, his cousin Gary was
staying with him. This was a very brutal crime scene.
Were pools of blood everywhere, and in these pools of blood,
what police found were two shoeprints, one a size ten
and a half and the other a size eleven. According
(08:11):
to the report, a size eleven Walmart Athletic Works brand
shoe left a print. Here's Joseph Scott Morgan. I went
back and I thought that brand sounded familiar. And the
reason it was familiar to me is that when my
son Noah got one of his first jobs, it was
at Chick fil A and they require you to wear
those non slip shoes. We went to Walmart to buy
(08:33):
him a pair, and that's what they were, and I
just looked that up. They're primarily Athletic Works shoes. Their
non slip souls is what they are. They're black in color,
they kind of look like athletic shoes, and visiting their website,
they go for like thirteen bucks a pair or something
like that. It's something that's easily acquired. The size eleven
(08:54):
shoe was actually found in both Christina and Data's home,
which is extremely significant because there's been so much speculation
about this. Did they divide up and each go to
a different location or did they do it together, and
that's what this evidence would imply. Yeah, to further knock
point stuff. What they also found was that the size
(09:16):
eleven shoe had a mix of multiple victims blood in it,
which again speaks to your point that whoever was wearing
that shoe went to multiple road in houses for Joseph Morgan.
It brought to mind another infamous family massacre. I urge
anybody that has never read In Cold Blood to go
(09:37):
read this book, specifically because of the forensics. Capodi did
such a fantastic job and given such a great description
of this horrible scene where this family was absolutely butchered,
not too dissimilar from what happened in Piked, and only
happened in one single home in Kansas all those years back.
They had one piece of evidence that really tied everything
together that scene. In Cold Blood is a non fiction
(10:00):
novel by author Truman Capote that was published in nineteen
sixty six. It details the nineteen fifty nine murders of
the Clutter family in small town, Kansas. And you might
have read this book in high school or have heard
of it. It's really one of the first true crime
stories that people sank their teeth into, and I would
surmise that any true crime TV series or podcast or
(10:25):
documentary really should give some credit to this one, because
without it, I don't think the genre would be what
it is. There are actually a lot of parallels between
the piked and massacre and the clutter of family murders
one the family aspect. Also to the brutality three the
victims being shot in the head, and just the sheer
(10:46):
amount of bloodshed. It's chilling. For those of you who
aren't familiar with the story, we'll give you a little
bit of a top line about it. It all started
in the fall of nineteen fifty nine when these two
x cons named Perry Smith and Richard Hiccock drove across
Kansas on a tip they had received from one of
their fellow inmates when they were in jail. While the
(11:07):
duel was still in jail, they met a man nam
Floyd Wells, who had claimed to them he had once
worked as a farmhand for a man named Herb Clutter, who,
according to Floyd, had kept thousands of dollars in a
safe in his basement. And that is all that Smith
and Hiccock needed to hear, And eventually, when they got
out of jail, they drove four hundred miles to the
Clutter residence and snuck into the house as the family
(11:30):
was sleeping. They started by tying up mister and Missus
Clutter and their two teenage children, Kenyon and Bonnie. It's
every parent's worst nightmare. I can't help being reminded of
what the Rodent family must have been feeling the night
that they were murdered, thinking about them in their homes
and having a loud, banging sound and all of a sudden,
(11:50):
there's gun in your face. And it turns out there
actually was not a safe. It was a total lie.
Or her rumor and Hiccoc, who had a very short temper,
flew into a raid. And it's so sad because they
must have decided beforehand that they wouldn't lead any witnesses alive,
so all they got away with was a radio in
maybe fifty dollars, but still they decided they had to
(12:12):
kill the entire family. Yeah, once they made this decision,
they kind of went one by one to the family
members who were in various points of the home. And
they started with mister Clutter, who was bound and gagged
on a box spring in the basement. Harry Smith slit
his throat and then shot him in the head. They
then went to the teenage son, Kenyon, who was bound
in another part of the basement and shot him to death,
(12:34):
and then they of course headed upstairs to kill mom
Nancy Clutter, and sadly, after hearing both her parents and
her brother being murdered, Bonnie Clutter was shot in the head.
Her hands were tied in front of her, she was gagged,
and get this, they actually tucked her into her bed.
It's almost like they were trying to make her comfortable
(12:56):
in the moments leading up to her murder. Another similarity
to the road in case seems to be the sheer
violence of all of this. To shoot someone and slip
their throat is the definition of overkill. In the same
way shooting members of the Rodan family multiple times in
the face is just violence for violences sake. Something else
(13:18):
that we should note that at some point in the night,
Perry Smith stepped in mister Clutter's blood in the basement
and left a partial footprint that again seems eerily similar
to this footprint that we've been discussing in the Rodent homes.
A lot of creepy stuff went on in this case. Anyway,
He was executed down there, and Perry, who was one
(13:39):
of the killers, was wearing a boot that had been
resold in this boot. When you hear this name, this
name in forensic parlance, it's a benchmark moment. It's called
the cat Paul print. When he stepped on that box,
he transferred a print to that box with his boot
(14:00):
that had transferred from blood onto the surface, and it
left that Cat Paul print. Perry Smith's boots were later recovered.
Not so, and piked In the defense has struck gold here. Really,
I think, so, what makes you think that, Well, guess
(14:20):
what they found. They had Perry's boots in this case,
they ain't got nothing and Piked and they don't have
the shoes. They don't have that to compare to in
the Clutter case they did. And I'm drawing these conclusions
because I think, in my opinion at least, that this case,
much like the Clutter case, is going to be a
blood bath. The prosecution is betting that their footprint expert,
(14:45):
William Bosniak, can tie the bloody prints back to the
Wagners without having the actual footwear for his analysis. Bosniak
bought the same Athletic Works model size and shoe at
Walmart about a thousand miles away from piked In and
his homestate of Florida. The defense is trying to raise
doubt about the process by which Bosniak determined the match,
(15:07):
as well as about Bosniak's actual qualifications as an expert.
To do this, they've requested what's called a Daubard hearing
here again and Flanagan Dalbert is just the name of
a case where some guidelines were set forth by the
US Supreme Court. And it was done with the idea
(15:30):
that we don't want junk science going to a jury
just because someone was declared an expert and said that
this was his expert opinion. And so they gave some
guidelines for attorneys and courts, and so some of the
guidelines aren't what would be called Dalbert factors. Some of
these factors include whether the theory or technique in question
(15:53):
can be and has been tested, whether it has been
subject to peer review and publication, known potential error rate,
and whether it has attracted widespread acceptance within the forensic
scientific community. Well, one of the attacks that the defense
made is that this is not the shoe. The shoe
that he compared to the print is a sample shoe
(16:16):
that he bought later. They would want to do that
because they see that as very damaging evidence. Understand, the
defense's job is to exploit these small little issues along
the way. They don't have to destroy the whole case.
You know, when you start to talk about you know, well,
they've given so much value to this piece of evidence,
(16:37):
they're going to try to paint it that way. If
this trial happens down there in southern Ohio and Appalachia,
people that inhabit those regions, their ears perk up when
they hear an accent from other places, or they see
people that don't quite fit in. And all he has
to do is say, you know, this s guy, he's
with the Feds. Why the hell are you going to
(16:57):
go outside of your own law enforcement Emily and the
crime lab there in state, in contract with an outside
expert in this particular case. Ultimately, Judge Daring ruled for
the defense that the Dobbard hearing could go forward. Joseph
Scott Morgan explains that if the judge rules in favor
of the defense, a jury would never hear any of
(17:20):
the evidence about the shoes. Defense is writtenes sing up
to state that this gentleman is going to testify to
size ten and a half and to size eleventh athletic
works shoes. He's going to testify to those items and
then he's marrying those up to the photographs of the
(17:41):
shoe prints that's seen to these individuals. They're saying that
this isn't going to hold water forensically, then we can
conclude that perhaps that bit of evidence will be excluded.
But listen, this is the defense. This is what they do.
If I hire a defense attorney, I'm assuming that's their
(18:05):
job to basically throw anything against the wall and hope
that it sticks. I would imagine it's a little bit
of an upful battle defending someone like George Wagner because
there's a lot of evidence against him, and so the
defense attorney is just trying to find ways around that
and ways to cast reasonable doubt. Because with a jury,
(18:26):
you don't need to prove that someone's innocent. All you
need to do is poke enough holes in the prosecution
story that there is a reasonable doubt that George Wagner
did not murder eight people. We think it's important to
go through the different pieces of evidence that the prosecution
is allegedly putting forward because it really does play a
huge part in this case. The first thing that we
(18:47):
think seems very relevant is these shoe receipts. Now as
a result of a search warrant executed on the vehicles
and the trailers belonging to the Wagner family. Investigators located
a Walmart receipt for a location in Waverley, Ohio. The
data on the receipt is April seventh, twenty sixteen, which,
as we know, is just a couple of weeks before
the murders. The receipt was for two pairs of gray
(19:10):
men's Walmart branded shoes with belcrow straps in sizes ten
and a half and eleven. Officials were able to obtain
and preserve surveillance photographs and receipts of all recent purchases
of that model and those sizes of the shoe in
numerous Walmart stores throughout southern Ohio. At some point, an
expert review the photographs obtained from a Walmart in Waverley, Ohio,
(19:34):
and it included still images of the customers who purchased
athletic work shoes that day, and the customer purchasing those
shoes in this particular surveillance shot is none other than
Angela Wagner. They actually show her exiting the Waverley Walmart
on April seventh, twenty sixteen, at approximately the exact same
(19:54):
time on the receipt found on the Wagner property. And
this day is so significant because, as you know, Hannah
May Roden was having her baby shower at her new
house where she lived with her mom, which we talked
about earlier. It is pretty damning evidence, to say the least.
We were told at some point that Angela Wagner chose
(20:17):
those specific shoes for her boys to wear, because they
were allegedly the exact same shoes that Dana Roden's brother
wore to work. And it's been speculated that perhaps Angela
Wagner was literally trying to set up Dana Roden's brother
for these murders. I have a question, what do you
(20:40):
think has more weight in the courtroom, the science and
the facts of the case or Jake Wagner's version of events. Well,
it all depends on what Jake has given them at
this point. And Mama, from a forensic standpoint, I can't
wait to see this. They've already shown their hand to
a certain degree. They're saying, we're going after the forensic
evidence right now. We know it's footwear. What else is
on the table, or we're gonna talk about ballistics because
(21:02):
that's the agency for bringing about death here. You know,
we're talking about firing multiple rounds into all of these people.
Reporter Angeanette Levy sees potential implications for George and Billy
Wagner if the evidence is allowed. I just know from
one of the hearings back in August of twenty twenty,
(21:24):
they were saying, you have no evidence against George the
fourth and the same with Billy. Billy's attorneys said in
court documents, you have no evidence against our guy. There's
nothing in the discovery that ties him to this. So
when you look at it, if we're looking at shoe
impression evidence, those could be things that maybe tie them
to the crime scenes because we have that whole issue
of the state saying and Angela Wagner at confirming that
(21:48):
she purchased these shoes at Walmart for them to use.
So those items could tie George and Billy to the crimes.
Because the Dabbard hearing could affect both father and son,
Judge Deerring raised the possibility that they both appear in
court at the same time. I would think that's going
to be potentially the most interesting thing to come out
(22:10):
of the Daubard hearing. So you're going to have the
singular hearing about the scientific evidence, and then it's going
to be presented at two separate capital murder trials. We're
going to take a break. We'll be back in a moment.
(22:34):
Judge Deerring decided to have two separate Dabbard cases for
George and Billy Wagner, avoiding a father son faced face
for the first time since their arrests almost four years ago.
Here's Joseph Morgan. What if they come to a conclusion,
let's just say it has to do with footwear, they
(22:55):
come to the conclusion X relative to the findings in
George's case and validity of the evidence and how was examined,
collected and analyzed. You've got the dynamic of a separate
legal team there. They might have a completely different view
of this. When you're accused of something, and I'm just
speaking strictly about forensics here, you have to be able
to hold forth against the entire might of the state
(23:19):
and what they bring to bear their forensic resources. George's
team is there to save George, they're not there to
save Billy. The morning of the trial, William Bosniak arrived
early and took a seat while the defense and prosecution
organized their arguments. Bosniak is fit with a head of
(23:40):
silver hair. You might guess he's ten years younger than
his actual age of seventy six. Stud call, mister Tom
the testimony. You are about the institute the truth for
whole truth and nothing about the truth? Answer? And you got?
I did? Can you tell us what your vocation is.
(24:02):
I'm a forensic consultant and examiner. I specialize in footwear
entire impression evidence. And can you tell us how abo
you see big doing that? Since nineteen seventy three, George
the Fourth avoids eye contact with Bosniak. Angie Kneppa goes
(24:23):
through the very standard procedure of having an expert describe
his resume to the court. He speaks for a full
hour and a half on his qualifications. Bosniak has done
thousands of footwear impression examinations during his career with the
FBI and in the twenty plus years of consulting since
his retirement in nineteen ninety eight. Footwear shoes of people
(24:46):
leave impressions. Some of these are on two dimensional surfaces,
where shoes acquire material like dust, dirt, mud, blood, and
so forth, and then they read deposited in subsequent steps,
typically the few step in a pool of blood. The
first few steps are pretty heavy and messy. I have
a lot of blood, and then eventually each step some
(25:09):
of that blood is transferred to the floor and consumed,
so the next step doesn't have as much. Bosniak explains
that he can identify specific brands, models, and sizes of
shoes even if they aren't recovered. He does this by
comparing or recovered prints to the molds used by manufacturers
to make the soles of any given shoe. In shoes
(25:32):
that are not popular, a manufacturer may only make one
mold for most or all sizes. The basic design will
be the same. It's computer generated has been for years,
so it's overall design and its physical size of that
design from all of those molds will virtually be indistinguishable.
(25:55):
But in some shoe designs they also add something that
is known as generically as texture. At this point, Bosniac
fires up a video he narrated. Texture is broadly defined
as a shallow pattern sometimes found on selective surfaces of
a footwear outshole. Adding texture to a mold is a
(26:18):
separate process. The video shows two workers in Southeast Asia.
They each sit at their own workbench with a small
hammer and all they're punching little divots into the shoe
molds that will later be used to cast rubber soles.
During the molding process, there are two predominant methods of
adding texture to a mold surface. One of those are
(26:40):
shown here, involves mechanically striking a pattern into the surface
using a steel dye or similar tool. This is known
as hand stiffly. Believe it or not, those little patterns
of the fine detail on the bottom of your shoes
are mostly hand carved, and no two are alike. A
size of level and mold created by one person will
(27:02):
have minute differences from a size eleven created by another person.
This goes even for the same brand and model shoe.
It creates a very specific footprint. What's great about this
evidence is that it's what we call it the monstrable
And when you have demonstrable evidence, that's a big, big
(27:23):
test of its reliability. If you live with Florida and
you're asked to do an examinations with Florida, how can
you make a comparison to a chie print impression? It
was left because manufacturers sell their shoes all over the country,
(27:44):
so if they're sold at one Walmart, you're probably sold
at the majority of them. If I know they're Walmart shoes,
then that's the obvious place that I would go to first.
Angie cannep arrests. Now it's time for defense attorney Rob
Junk to convince the judge that Bosniak is not a
(28:05):
reliable expert. So what I'm hearing from you? Then, in
doing this test, you're required to have a mold standard
from the factories, right, No, in some cases, I just
simply go to the store and buy some or get
permission to make photographs and take standards of the shoes
(28:25):
they have. And why not go to the manufact That's
not always possible, they're at other countries mostly. But unless
you have obtained all of the molds, how do you
know or how can you be certain that the impression
you have is a one particular mold or shoe that
(28:46):
you have purchased from the store. I mean, this is
just through your experience, is that right? You don't know
this to be I know this to be certain because
I've observed it. I've worked cases like this, I've interacted
with manufacturers, numerous manufacturers. I've been in factories asking questions
like this, and I've observed it over and over again
(29:07):
and used this process over and over again, and it's
a certain as anything can be. The defense works tirelessly
to see if Bosniak will slip up. The defense then
moves on to the issue of not having the actual
shoes used in the crime. Can you explain to the quarters,
if we're looking at a Walmart, how reliable it is
(29:31):
to make a comparison ring match between a Walmart store
and Florida and a shoe that a Walmart store maybe
in California d sell. Sure they came from the same hold,
they just got distributed to all over the country. And
although the impression corresponded with the shoe that you purchased
(29:53):
from Walmart, you cannot say that that impression came from
the athletic work shoe or a right. Yes, it's an
athletic workshoe that has the texture that I purchased in
that I compared and they corresponds with the crime scene.
(30:13):
After three hours of questioning, Judge Deering has heard enough.
I think I'm just going to rule an emotion. I mean,
I could include the court concludes that the footwear impression
evidence has explained and testified too, but William Budsiac satisfies
the criteria of evidence rule seven and two and Dallart
Merrill for the admissibility of expert testimony. Let's stop here
(30:40):
for another break with the Dobbard hearing over and motion
seventy six denied. It's guaranteed the jury will hear the
testimony of William Bosniac his positive identification linking the shoes
bought at Walmart by Angela Wagner and the footprints at
(31:02):
the crime scene containing the blood of multiple victims. This
may have far rich in consequences for the entire Wagner family. Regardless,
jurors will still see Jake's plea correct, and that would
have its own narrative in and of itself, and maybe
then the defense would poke holes in that. You're gonna
(31:22):
get more than that from Jake. He's gonna be on
the stand. He's got to stand and deliver. That's the
only way they made to steal him and Mama gonna
be on stand. Man, You're gonna have a five time
murderer all to stand given testimony against his daddy, against
his brother, I don't ever recall that I've ever heard
of case like this, not in my memory, not in
(31:44):
recent history, at least anywhere in America. The stakes at
this point are so incredibly high it's unimaginable. More on
that next time. If you're enjoying The Pikes and Massacre,
listen to our other hits series, Crazy and Love. New
episodes are every Tuesday. Wherever you get your podcasts. For
(32:07):
more information and case photos, follow us on Instagram at
Katie Underscore Studios. The Piked and Massacre is produced by
Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane, Chris Greaves, Scott de Graw, and
me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by Jeff Tui.
Music by Jared Aston. The Piked and Massacre is a
(32:30):
production of Katie Studios and I Heartradio. For more podcasts
from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
What Are We Even Doing? with Kyle MacLachlan
Join award-winning actor and social media madman Kyle MacLachlan on “What Are We Even Doing,” where he sits down with Millennial and Gen Z actors, musicians, artists, and content creators to share stories about the entertainment industry past, present, and future. Kyle and his guests will talk shop, compare notes on life, and generally be weird together. In a good way. Their conversations will resonate with listeners of any age whose interests lie in television & film, music, art, or pop culture.