June 1, 2022 • 28 mins
While we’ve heard the details about the 2016 murder of the Rhoden family, little has been uncovered about the accused family…until now. With never before heard, first-hand accounts of the Wagner family’s dynamics, interactions and personalities, we begin to gain an understanding of what might have driven them to commit such atrocious acts.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
After the massacre occurred, but before her arrest, mother Angela
Wagner took to social media to speak out about the victims.
Here's an excerpt from one of those posts. What has
happened to us in the past few weeks has been
devastating and it will follow us for the rest of
our lives. Hannah was a daughter to me. I loved
(00:24):
her dearly. Her laws still hurts to this day. We
want justice like everyone else. Let's try to find the
real monsters who've done this. Turns out she was the monster.
(00:44):
This is the Pike Did Massacre A production of Katie
Studios and iHeartRadio Season three, Episode two Monsters. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and
Jeff Shane, and preparation for this season, We've been speaking
to many sources in and around Pike County who would
(01:07):
not go on the record before, probably because they were scared,
but now they are ready to talk. In some cases
they were fearing retribution, including those close to Angela. There
are so many perspectives on Mom Angela Wagner, and it
begs the question, is it possible for a human being
to be all things at once. Throughout all of these
(01:32):
conversations and interviews, we've learned a lot more about the victims,
the Rodent family, and the alleged killers, the Wagners. This
includes other theories and information that goes generations deep, and
some of it has far reaching and sometimes nefarious tentacles.
(01:56):
Here's what we know about Angela Wagner. She had a
mother named Rita Newcome. I actually met her in person,
was in her home just days after she was released.
And she was married to a man named Pug Carter,
Angela's father. They at some point divorced, Rita remarried and
had a second child, twenty years younger, her half brother,
(02:17):
Chris Newcomb. Chris has agreed to speak with us for
the podcast on the record for the very first time.
Has now a good time? Do you have a minute? Well?
What would you wanting to know? You are Angela's half brother.
Explain that all to me, Like how you're related and
how much younger you are. Angela is my half sister
(02:38):
from my mom's first marriage. We got the same mom.
She is twenty years older than I am. Well, here's
my backstory that I can give for your radio thing.
I grew up with George and Jake, like my brothers.
I was always closer to George than I was with Jake.
George would do anything in the world for anybody out
(02:58):
of Never in my life thought this out of him.
Jake on he has hand, I'd have never thought it
out of him either. But he's always been a little odd.
I mean, he just always has been. My sister met
here never really got along that well. Jake ain't no
better in my opinion, and I got nothing for him
at all. Billy's Billy. He's always been Billy. I mean,
everybody was trying to say. And he might have been
(03:20):
the brains of the operation that some bitches stamp film.
He couldn't hit the ground with his hat three tries,
So you didn't really grow up with her. I never
grew up with her at all, hardly. I mean when
I wasn't even a year old, I was like nine,
ten months old, she got pregnant with George, her oldest boy,
which would be my nephew. How did you see any
(03:41):
of them, George, Jay, Cancel or Billy And back when
I was a kid, hell, I was always I had
to go over and spend the night for two three
weeks at a time. Oh wow. Hell, I spent several
summers over there, and when we got older and stuff
like that. I'd see George when every swung by or
he'd called and say, hey, we're gonna go hunting and
we're gonna move fishing. So we'd all go out and
(04:01):
do that. So you might grow up with Jake and
George being your peers. Oh yeah, yeah, we grew up
more like brothers than we did uncle and nephews. I mean,
we as close as hell. When of these kids, she'd
treat me as one of the kids. But it just,
I don't know, it seemed cold. Whenever she had to
do something for me. It wasn't like a like a
(04:21):
warming feeling, like you know here I want I want
to help you have fun, or I want to help
you out do this. It was just cold. Was she
liked that with the boys too? Are just yell, not
really just made Mainly, I don't think she liked me much.
Why Why do you think that is? I don't know.
I didn't like her either, so I kind of worked
out I never looked into my sister was very controlling person.
(04:42):
Whenever rise around, she always tried to control every aspect
that I did, and I pretty much told her go
to hell and that was the end of it. But
I mean she pretty much controlled every aspect of their life,
right down to their social media, their Facebook, their Message
or Twitter. They're fucking uh, their dating sites. They had
dating sites, and she actually had the information for their
dating sites. She had to passwords to it. No. Yes,
(05:12):
So when you were a kid and you would spend
summers there or extended periods of time, Angela was your sister.
But I imagine treated you like a mom. You should
probably helped cook for you and treated you like one
of the boys. Was she kind to you that or
was she always judge? Kind of a mixture of both.
She was kind of a judge, kind of fake. What
(05:32):
do you mean by that? It just seemed like she
would be nice, but it was all like an act
because she always told me, she said I'll never amount
to anything. And she didn't tell just me that, she
told other people that. She said that I would never
amount to nothing and I'd probably end up spending the
rest of my life in jail. I almost want to
answer a phone call from her just to laugh at her. Wow,
(05:55):
you mentioned you and Angela were raised differently. How would
you describe how you were raised and how would you
say how she was raised. I wasn't around whenever she
was being raised, you know, I wouldn't even have thought
then mom was still married to her dad, Pug or
Eddie Edward Carter. He was always a good old guy.
I knew him, ra Will you like Pug? Oh? I
thought the world Pug Eddie Carter, better known as Pug,
(06:19):
was Angela Wagner's father. We didn't know much about him
or Angela's upbringing and how that might have shaped the
person she is until now. Here's Jeff speaking to an
anonymous friend of the Carter family who reached out to us.
Your message is really interesting to me. I would love
to just kind of like hear all of it. And
(06:41):
now you found this information out on what your take
on all of it is. I grew up in South Webster,
where the Wagners came back from Alaska's where they moved to,
and the actual house that they lived in was the
house of her dad. I knew him as a Pug Carter.
He always wore this like metal brace and he walked
with a limp. He heard from my dad was that
(07:01):
he would climb electric poles and steal copper or something
off of the poles, and he's gotten electric uted and
it affected his walking. When money would get tight by
Black would go like pawn things to little but he
ran like a I guess it would be illegal pawnshop
where people would go take like small tools, long equitable,
you know, stuff like that. I think he'd gotten in
(07:24):
trouble for forgery. One time. People would take their vehicle
titles and pawned them to him for money, and he
got to where he would like he would forge the
titles and sell the vehicles, so people were like losing cars.
So somebody eventually took him to court for that. And
he'd done that for several years before he got in
trouble for him, and that's the reason why Dad quit
feeling with him. Explain that to me. So I would
(07:44):
take my car title and sell it to him. You
would pawn it him, so you would give him your
title and he would give you a couple hundred dollars
and you'd pay it back, or once you paid him back,
he would give your title back. But then he started
like selling the vehicles before people had a chance to
pay him back. The whole opioid epidemics started around here,
and I guess he'd gotten into pills and stuff and
(08:07):
he was started selling drugs as well as running this
underground pawn shop he was doing. There isn't a lot
of information out there about Puck Carter, but what we
could find included a criminal record filled with arrests for assault,
receiving stolen property, and truck possession. From what I remember
(08:30):
is that there was like an undercover seeing where the
police were going to his house and purchasing and selling drugs.
So actual drug bust is how he got caught. But
the reason Michael Moran came into is Michael Moran he
was like the cheaper lawyer. So if you were kind
of poorer on like the lower income level, he would
work out a deal where you didn't have to pay
as much for a lawyer like he was who all
(08:50):
the poorer people went to. And I think that's really
how he got to where he could target prostitutes and stuff,
is because they were lower income and they could afford
his services. It's not a surprise to me that her
dad had him as a lawyer. It's important to note
that the recollections that Michael Moran was put Carter's attorney
is strictly the first hand account of our anonymous source.
(09:14):
Here's Stephanie and Jeff. We talked about Michael Moran in
season two. He's an attorney and a former city councilman
in Portsmouth, which is about twenty five miles south of
Pike County. He had multiple allegations against him, including sex trafficking,
the disappearance of several young women connected to him personally,
(09:35):
and the possible murder of another at the age of
seventy five while out on bail and awaiting trial for
promoting prostitution, compelling prostitution, human trafficking, and engaging in a
pattern of corrupt activity. Michael Moran died in November of
twenty twenty one. There's a place called Big Bear Lake
(09:58):
that has come up a lot over the year in
our research. It's this spot not too far from Pike
County that people go to on vacation. Essentially, it's like
a holiday location. We're going to discuss this further, but
it's also been alleged that it's a spot where sex
trafficking happens, drug trafficking happens, and potentially there's a connection
(10:19):
between Michael Moran and the Wagner family. I have to
be really honest, my mouth dropped when we heard the
connection between Pug Carter, Angela Wagner's father, and Michael Moran.
It's full circle. It just further speaks to this idea
that Pike County and the surrounding area is where people
(10:40):
in power continue to stay in power by abusing other people.
It also points to a larger plot here. Angie was
always really close with her dad, Like I remember her
being at her dad's often, like she took care of
her dad. What I've heard locally is that's why they
came back from Alaska's because Billy's dad had died and
(11:00):
her dadded night they needed to settle those estates, and
then they ended up moving into his house to Plug's house,
and that's where they lived when they were arrested. Did
you have any interaction with them when they came back. No,
Nobody really knew they were here until they were arrested.
People would be like, Oh, I think I saw Angela
and Jake at Jackson Walmart, which is a completely different county.
(11:21):
I think they were going there, so they weren't noticed,
and everybody's like, no, there's no way. Then all of
a sudden they were arrested, and we're like, oh, well,
maybe it was true. They were back into town. But
if you drive by Plug's house, like the wagoner's vehicles
are still there, it's still as if it was the
day they were arrested. Nothing has been best with or moved.
Somebody cuts the grass, but as far as like they're
(11:43):
stuff still being in there, it is still there. Can
you paint the picture for me? So like a brick
ranch home with you know, like a big grawl lot
and they're still kind of stuff out. It still kind
of looks like it did when Plug own didn't but
there's like vehicles setting outside. They had like this really
big Dodge Ram Diesel truck. When you have something like
that around here, it means you have money. It's interesting
(12:04):
that that stuff wasn't seized. Yeah, we kind you get
like a Garie feeling when you drive farther too, It's like, oh,
there's so much bad stuff that's happened in that one house.
A crime goes Yeah, I mean that's where they were
hiding out and potentially they were there planning those murders,
So we're going to take a break. We'll be back
(12:28):
in a moment. Sammy Joe grew up in the piked
In area and was closed with both the Wagner and
the Rodent families. Sammy spent a lot of time at
the Wagner's home, where she found Angela to be not
(12:49):
so much motherly as controlling. Here she is speaking with Stephanie.
I grew up with the Wagner and then I dated
Frankie wrote, where were you when you heard all of
the news about the murders. I was standing in my
living room, and I lived not tremendously far away, but
(13:13):
I heard all the sirens and everything going on. The
next thing, you know, my Facebook was all lit up
with family members found dead. And I'm thinking, there ain't
no way we all talk about Angela Wagner, the mom
of killers, as being in the mastermind. Oh, I wouldn't
(13:33):
put a pastor if Angela said jump and you didn't
say how high Angela got mapped, especially with Jake. Jake
was her baby. Like if Angela didn't like me, Jake
wasn't allowed to like me that week. I didn't come
from the right family or I did her wrong in
(13:53):
her eyes or something. What about Billy would you describe him?
What was he like? He was a type of guy
that he could crack a joke and you would laugh
for days. My dad had a stroke, a massive brain
laying a stroke, and I remember writing Angela and I said, hey,
this is Samantha Brian Frederick's daughter. I need to get
ahold of Billy. And Billy got ahold of me, and
(14:16):
I told him my fight listened. The house that we're
living in the floor falling through. They will not let
my dad come home and let I get the floor fit.
Billy showed up with plywood feed for my animals. He
had bought me cinnamon products, a shampoo conditioner, like he
was there to help, like in his mom. I got
ahold of Billy and I'd say, listen, my mom's behind
(14:38):
on the electric bill. We're in disconnect. They're literally shutting
us off. We need a good amount of money. And
Frederika got ahold of us and she paid our electric bill.
They wasn't bad people. I mean they're bad people now,
but I honestly, in my opinion, I don't think they
were all in vault. I think there was other people
(14:59):
in ball under Angela's demand, right, is it possible that
they weren't even there and that maybe other people were
there that night. In my opinion, yes, I think they know,
but they won't speak about it. I think the boys
(15:22):
know what happened, and if they speak about it, they'll
be dead. And that's my opinion. Jake and George was
always homeschooled, like they were never in public schools. The
(15:42):
public systems that Angela was not good enough for her boy,
so her teaching her kids was better. I don't know
how much better that was, but it was teaching them
pretty much. What Angela said goes like she's off the
vibe of like if she said you're going to rub
a bank and you tell her no, like she gets scary.
(16:09):
I love the boys to death. They're a little weird,
but I love them to death. I remember decades ago
we all went to the bull riding thing and Billy
and her got my little argument. I've never seen a
grown man in an argument shut up so fast in
my life, Like the argument was over within seconds. It
(16:32):
was controlling, is what it was. And have you been
in the house when all of them were home at
the same time. Yeah, the house was always quiet, very quiet.
Normally would be Billy sitting there in a chair grinding
his teeth, just sitting there watching TV. That would be
(16:53):
like the living room area. Angela would normally in their
cooking and then off. All that in the bag was
the boys' room. To the left was Georgie's room, until
the right was Jake's room. Of course, typical boys, you're
going to have to your heads and guns in there.
And that's pretty much the house. I can't remember a
(17:17):
time that they were one of the houses burnt down
and they were living in a shack and they were
all cramped up in this little living room area and
I'm standing there by the door with my dad. It
was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. As
a reminder, this is Sammy Joe's recollection of events. I
could tell you every place that they had, every place
(17:39):
that burned down. I can't prove that it was in Churce,
but that many houses. There's the trailer, trailer, slush house,
the building. There's like a good four or five places
at Burndale pluses in my truck. There wasn't anybody home
or in the houses when they burnt down. Correct We've
(18:05):
heard for several years about suspicious fires related to Angela
and Billy Wagner, but have never been able to speak
out about it. However, now these allegations have been substantiated
in court. On May second, twenty two, Special Prosecutor Angie
Kneppa references arson in connection with the Wagner family multiple times.
(18:27):
Some of these acts are alleged. Some of these we
have again high levels of proof, specifically number one, multiple
instances of arson of various properties for their own financial gain.
Everybody in the conspiracy has their own role, and they
carry out that role. Ironically. Oftentimes Angela absents herself from
(18:50):
the crime itself. The men Jake, George and Billy carry
out the crime, and then they have a story, cover
up story. I probably had a chance to talk to George.
I honestly would, because I just want to know why
I actually want fishing with George. Shortly after and it
(19:13):
got brought up, Wait, you went fishing with George Wagner
after the murders, I asked him. I was like, I
can't believe this happened. And because him and Frankie after
a while got row close. As terrible as it is
to say, now victim Frankie Rodin and accused murderer George
(19:35):
Wagner were known to be good friends. Sammy Job calls
the time when Frankie Rodin was standing up to Jake
Wagner to defend his sister Hannah May. I did hear
about Frankie and Jay getting into it, because I guess
Jake and Hannah got into it and Jake had hit Hannah.
(19:56):
Sorry to interrupt, but just for clarity, you're referring to
to victim Frankie Rodin Hadame Rodin's older brother, right, Yeah,
but I don't know. I wasn't there or that's just
what I was told. But George like shut me out,
(20:18):
like he goes, how could we do it? Because they
were already being questioned who was going to be there
with the kids, And I was like, well, I don't know.
I was like, there's just something wrong. Like he totally
shut me out. Like I knew sometime was wrong that
day when we were talking about it, like our vision
trip was going good and it got run roll fucked.
(20:48):
Like I talked to them why they were in Alaska?
Tell me about the Alaska piece. Why Alaska that's been
the boys' dream since they were Mehi to Grosshopper. Do
you know if Angela and Hannah at any point had
a positive relationship, even back in the early days. Oh yeah,
one one time. They loved each other as far as
(21:09):
I know. But Angelo was the type of person if
you say or do something out of the way, you're
a bad person. Why, I think, honestly because Hannah was
the type of person. But first I know that's what
I mean. And Angela wasn't getting her way with the custody,
(21:31):
And I honestly feel like, and this was my opinion,
Angela was afraid that Hannah was going to take away
all visitations and that's how it was going to be.
Not only did Sammy Joe know the Wagner family, but
she also knew the Rodents intimately when they were very
(21:54):
much alive. She spent a lot of time at mother
Diana Roden's house sitting her boyfriend Frankie. How old were
you when you dated Frankie Rodin. I dated him from
seventh grade to like ninth grade. He was fun and
you just like the rest of him, like he was
so well going, give the shirt off his back, caring Malsee.
(22:15):
When you were dating Frankie, did you spend any time
at the road and home? What were they like? What
was their home like? It was fun, like it was
a live like that place was alive. Frankie would write
a bus home with me. Mostly I write a bus
home with them and just spend a lot of time
(22:36):
out there. I spent more time than even at my
own house. And was Dana close with Frankie? Oh that
was her baby boy? Like should hurt someone over her kids?
Could you physically describe her? Like? What did she look like?
Her hair was always sure? We always called her fluffy.
She was about five to seven, very loud, but yeah,
(23:01):
like I never wanted to go home, like I actually
felt like I was wanted. She would go out of
your way like my dream shoes was I called him
Abby's shoes like they were the very long shoes that
zip up the back. I can't remember what they're called
now and her and Frankie Blomingham. I had those shoes
(23:23):
for years. Did you know Hannah Gilly Frankie lover? You
could tell Sammy Joe shared a recollection she had about
Hanna me roudin Hannah. She would drive past my house
just honking, and she drove by Honk and I was
on my porch. She was I'll see you later. I
called to see you later, and I didn't get to
(23:44):
see her later because she was dead the next day.
Let's stop here for another break. While Sammy Joe's relationship
(24:05):
with Angela was similar to what we've heard from other
people and in childs that she was controlling and suspicious.
Like all people, Angela is different things to different people.
Here's Howe, a family friend who knew the Wagners both
in Ohio and Alaska. My understanding is that you had
a very close relationship with the Wagner family. I grew
(24:28):
up with them and went to church and them and
things like that. Tell me about them. What were they like?
I always thought they were great people. I've stated at
their house multiple times. Like I said, I've gone to
church with them growing up. It's kind of like a
second family to me. I thought they were decent people.
Did you remember anything about Angela Wagner. I just remember
her being the typical mom. In a million years, I
have never thought she could plot anything or do anything
(24:50):
of this sort of caliber. Like I said, just the
typical mom. She reminds me of my own mother. What
about her specifically was typical in your opinion, her attitude,
you know, just the standard mom. You know, the way
she looks. You look at her and you see mom
like she's just that friendly of a person. Just her
(25:11):
attitude in general, she's a welcoming person. You had mentioned Alaska.
Did you live in Alaska or did you visit them
while the Wagoners were in Alaska? I lived in Alaska
and they came up and visited. Tell me how old
were you at that point? I was probably thirteen fourteen
somewhere around there, just you know, a young teenager. They
were a little older than I was, so we didn't
(25:31):
really hang out a whole lot. Then I went fishing
with him once or twice in Alaska. Why Alaska do
you think? I think the real thing was the pastor
in Alaska was also the pastor in the church in
Ohio that they went to, and they knew my grandparents,
so they had a lot of people up here that
in Alaska is just the place that everybody wants to
come and visit. So I assume that you know, they
wanted to come to see old friends and things like that.
(25:53):
And when they came, that was before the massacre. Correct, Yeah,
this was before. It's at least thing serious. Why they
went to Alaska and moreover, why would they go back
to Pike County. They came the first time to visit
and then the whole Pike County massacre thing happened, and
they came back to Alaska, but they had no contact
with anybody. They didn't talk to any of us, Like
(26:16):
we reached out, were like, hey, what's up, how are
you guys? We're sorry this happened, and they never once
talked to us. They moved to a different city. I
believe they lived in Saladna or Cassia Lock or something
like that, and they never had any sort of contact
with me, my grandparents and my sisters, the pastor nothing.
What do you make to that? It was definitely strange
hearing people were murdered, then they show up out of
(26:37):
nowhere coming back to Alaska. It was it was definitely fishy.
And that's when I kind of cut ties, you know,
just just to be on the stais. I didn't want
to be involved in anything of that sort. When they
were in fact arrested for the murders, that must have
been a huge shock. Oh, I cried, I said in
my apartment, and I cried live for my art because
she's just, you know, one of the sweetest people ever.
I just don't think it's going to add up. And
(26:58):
I think people do dumb thing for their family. People
say they do anything for their family, and I think
she did do anything for her family, as terrible as
it was. As we continue speaking with more people, much
more information is coming out, including other acts the Wagners
(27:18):
have allegedly committed over the years. This is according to prosecutors,
the Wagner family tracked her, they threatened her, they threatened
her family's lives. The family definitely on that side. They
did stuff to make money other than legally. It begs
the question of how why their net is spread and
(27:39):
what other people may be involved. For the first time
on this podcast, we'll hear Jake Wagner's ex wife Elizabeth.
They keep being asked, did you know Jake Wagner was
a murderer before you married him? What I'm getting real say, ooh,
have nothing to do with the murders. This voice belongs
to another person who has requested anonymity due to their
(28:02):
proximity to the Wagner family. Is Angela. The monster or
did she marry into monsters. I feel like Jilly's a
type that would pay someone in prison to kill his
own kids. More on that next time. For more information
on case photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
(28:27):
The Piked and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane,
Chris Graves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed
by Jeff Tis, music by Jared Aston, audio mixing by
Ken Novak. The Piked and Massacre is a production of
Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
(28:48):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
After the massacre occurred, but before her arrest, mother Angela
Wagner took to social media to speak out about the victims.
Here's an excerpt from one of those posts. What has
happened to us in the past few weeks has been
devastating and it will follow us for the rest of
our lives. Hannah was a daughter to me. I loved
(00:24):
her dearly. Her laws still hurts to this day. We
want justice like everyone else. Let's try to find the
real monsters who've done this. Turns out she was the monster.
(00:44):
This is the Pike Did Massacre A production of Katie
Studios and iHeartRadio Season three, Episode two Monsters. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a television producer at Katie Studios with Stephanie Ledecker and
Jeff Shane, and preparation for this season, We've been speaking
to many sources in and around Pike County who would
(01:07):
not go on the record before, probably because they were scared,
but now they are ready to talk. In some cases
they were fearing retribution, including those close to Angela. There
are so many perspectives on Mom Angela Wagner, and it
begs the question, is it possible for a human being
to be all things at once. Throughout all of these
(01:32):
conversations and interviews, we've learned a lot more about the victims,
the Rodent family, and the alleged killers, the Wagners. This
includes other theories and information that goes generations deep, and
some of it has far reaching and sometimes nefarious tentacles.
(01:56):
Here's what we know about Angela Wagner. She had a
mother named Rita Newcome. I actually met her in person,
was in her home just days after she was released.
And she was married to a man named Pug Carter,
Angela's father. They at some point divorced, Rita remarried and
had a second child, twenty years younger, her half brother,
(02:17):
Chris Newcomb. Chris has agreed to speak with us for
the podcast on the record for the very first time.
Has now a good time? Do you have a minute? Well?
What would you wanting to know? You are Angela's half brother.
Explain that all to me, Like how you're related and
how much younger you are. Angela is my half sister
(02:38):
from my mom's first marriage. We got the same mom.
She is twenty years older than I am. Well, here's
my backstory that I can give for your radio thing.
I grew up with George and Jake, like my brothers.
I was always closer to George than I was with Jake.
George would do anything in the world for anybody out
(02:58):
of Never in my life thought this out of him.
Jake on he has hand, I'd have never thought it
out of him either. But he's always been a little odd.
I mean, he just always has been. My sister met
here never really got along that well. Jake ain't no
better in my opinion, and I got nothing for him
at all. Billy's Billy. He's always been Billy. I mean,
everybody was trying to say. And he might have been
(03:20):
the brains of the operation that some bitches stamp film.
He couldn't hit the ground with his hat three tries,
So you didn't really grow up with her. I never
grew up with her at all, hardly. I mean when
I wasn't even a year old, I was like nine,
ten months old, she got pregnant with George, her oldest boy,
which would be my nephew. How did you see any
(03:41):
of them, George, Jay, Cancel or Billy And back when
I was a kid, hell, I was always I had
to go over and spend the night for two three
weeks at a time. Oh wow. Hell, I spent several
summers over there, and when we got older and stuff
like that. I'd see George when every swung by or
he'd called and say, hey, we're gonna go hunting and
we're gonna move fishing. So we'd all go out and
(04:01):
do that. So you might grow up with Jake and
George being your peers. Oh yeah, yeah, we grew up
more like brothers than we did uncle and nephews. I mean,
we as close as hell. When of these kids, she'd
treat me as one of the kids. But it just,
I don't know, it seemed cold. Whenever she had to
do something for me. It wasn't like a like a
(04:21):
warming feeling, like you know here I want I want
to help you have fun, or I want to help
you out do this. It was just cold. Was she
liked that with the boys too? Are just yell, not
really just made Mainly, I don't think she liked me much.
Why Why do you think that is? I don't know.
I didn't like her either, so I kind of worked
out I never looked into my sister was very controlling person.
(04:42):
Whenever rise around, she always tried to control every aspect
that I did, and I pretty much told her go
to hell and that was the end of it. But
I mean she pretty much controlled every aspect of their life,
right down to their social media, their Facebook, their Message
or Twitter. They're fucking uh, their dating sites. They had
dating sites, and she actually had the information for their
dating sites. She had to passwords to it. No. Yes,
(05:12):
So when you were a kid and you would spend
summers there or extended periods of time, Angela was your sister.
But I imagine treated you like a mom. You should
probably helped cook for you and treated you like one
of the boys. Was she kind to you that or
was she always judge? Kind of a mixture of both.
She was kind of a judge, kind of fake. What
(05:32):
do you mean by that? It just seemed like she
would be nice, but it was all like an act
because she always told me, she said I'll never amount
to anything. And she didn't tell just me that, she
told other people that. She said that I would never
amount to nothing and I'd probably end up spending the
rest of my life in jail. I almost want to
answer a phone call from her just to laugh at her. Wow,
(05:55):
you mentioned you and Angela were raised differently. How would
you describe how you were raised and how would you
say how she was raised. I wasn't around whenever she
was being raised, you know, I wouldn't even have thought
then mom was still married to her dad, Pug or
Eddie Edward Carter. He was always a good old guy.
I knew him, ra Will you like Pug? Oh? I
thought the world Pug Eddie Carter, better known as Pug,
(06:19):
was Angela Wagner's father. We didn't know much about him
or Angela's upbringing and how that might have shaped the
person she is until now. Here's Jeff speaking to an
anonymous friend of the Carter family who reached out to us.
Your message is really interesting to me. I would love
to just kind of like hear all of it. And
(06:41):
now you found this information out on what your take
on all of it is. I grew up in South Webster,
where the Wagners came back from Alaska's where they moved to,
and the actual house that they lived in was the
house of her dad. I knew him as a Pug Carter.
He always wore this like metal brace and he walked
with a limp. He heard from my dad was that
(07:01):
he would climb electric poles and steal copper or something
off of the poles, and he's gotten electric uted and
it affected his walking. When money would get tight by
Black would go like pawn things to little but he
ran like a I guess it would be illegal pawnshop
where people would go take like small tools, long equitable,
you know, stuff like that. I think he'd gotten in
(07:24):
trouble for forgery. One time. People would take their vehicle
titles and pawned them to him for money, and he
got to where he would like he would forge the
titles and sell the vehicles, so people were like losing cars.
So somebody eventually took him to court for that. And
he'd done that for several years before he got in
trouble for him, and that's the reason why Dad quit
feeling with him. Explain that to me. So I would
(07:44):
take my car title and sell it to him. You
would pawn it him, so you would give him your
title and he would give you a couple hundred dollars
and you'd pay it back, or once you paid him back,
he would give your title back. But then he started
like selling the vehicles before people had a chance to
pay him back. The whole opioid epidemics started around here,
and I guess he'd gotten into pills and stuff and
(08:07):
he was started selling drugs as well as running this
underground pawn shop he was doing. There isn't a lot
of information out there about Puck Carter, but what we
could find included a criminal record filled with arrests for assault,
receiving stolen property, and truck possession. From what I remember
(08:30):
is that there was like an undercover seeing where the
police were going to his house and purchasing and selling drugs.
So actual drug bust is how he got caught. But
the reason Michael Moran came into is Michael Moran he
was like the cheaper lawyer. So if you were kind
of poorer on like the lower income level, he would
work out a deal where you didn't have to pay
as much for a lawyer like he was who all
(08:50):
the poorer people went to. And I think that's really
how he got to where he could target prostitutes and stuff,
is because they were lower income and they could afford
his services. It's not a surprise to me that her
dad had him as a lawyer. It's important to note
that the recollections that Michael Moran was put Carter's attorney
is strictly the first hand account of our anonymous source.
(09:14):
Here's Stephanie and Jeff. We talked about Michael Moran in
season two. He's an attorney and a former city councilman
in Portsmouth, which is about twenty five miles south of
Pike County. He had multiple allegations against him, including sex trafficking,
the disappearance of several young women connected to him personally,
(09:35):
and the possible murder of another at the age of
seventy five while out on bail and awaiting trial for
promoting prostitution, compelling prostitution, human trafficking, and engaging in a
pattern of corrupt activity. Michael Moran died in November of
twenty twenty one. There's a place called Big Bear Lake
(09:58):
that has come up a lot over the year in
our research. It's this spot not too far from Pike
County that people go to on vacation. Essentially, it's like
a holiday location. We're going to discuss this further, but
it's also been alleged that it's a spot where sex
trafficking happens, drug trafficking happens, and potentially there's a connection
(10:19):
between Michael Moran and the Wagner family. I have to
be really honest, my mouth dropped when we heard the
connection between Pug Carter, Angela Wagner's father, and Michael Moran.
It's full circle. It just further speaks to this idea
that Pike County and the surrounding area is where people
(10:40):
in power continue to stay in power by abusing other people.
It also points to a larger plot here. Angie was
always really close with her dad, Like I remember her
being at her dad's often, like she took care of
her dad. What I've heard locally is that's why they
came back from Alaska's because Billy's dad had died and
(11:00):
her dadded night they needed to settle those estates, and
then they ended up moving into his house to Plug's house,
and that's where they lived when they were arrested. Did
you have any interaction with them when they came back. No,
Nobody really knew they were here until they were arrested.
People would be like, Oh, I think I saw Angela
and Jake at Jackson Walmart, which is a completely different county.
(11:21):
I think they were going there, so they weren't noticed,
and everybody's like, no, there's no way. Then all of
a sudden they were arrested, and we're like, oh, well,
maybe it was true. They were back into town. But
if you drive by Plug's house, like the wagoner's vehicles
are still there, it's still as if it was the
day they were arrested. Nothing has been best with or moved.
Somebody cuts the grass, but as far as like they're
(11:43):
stuff still being in there, it is still there. Can
you paint the picture for me? So like a brick
ranch home with you know, like a big grawl lot
and they're still kind of stuff out. It still kind
of looks like it did when Plug own didn't but
there's like vehicles setting outside. They had like this really
big Dodge Ram Diesel truck. When you have something like
that around here, it means you have money. It's interesting
(12:04):
that that stuff wasn't seized. Yeah, we kind you get
like a Garie feeling when you drive farther too, It's like, oh,
there's so much bad stuff that's happened in that one house.
A crime goes Yeah, I mean that's where they were
hiding out and potentially they were there planning those murders,
So we're going to take a break. We'll be back
(12:28):
in a moment. Sammy Joe grew up in the piked
In area and was closed with both the Wagner and
the Rodent families. Sammy spent a lot of time at
the Wagner's home, where she found Angela to be not
(12:49):
so much motherly as controlling. Here she is speaking with Stephanie.
I grew up with the Wagner and then I dated
Frankie wrote, where were you when you heard all of
the news about the murders. I was standing in my
living room, and I lived not tremendously far away, but
(13:13):
I heard all the sirens and everything going on. The
next thing, you know, my Facebook was all lit up
with family members found dead. And I'm thinking, there ain't
no way we all talk about Angela Wagner, the mom
of killers, as being in the mastermind. Oh, I wouldn't
(13:33):
put a pastor if Angela said jump and you didn't
say how high Angela got mapped, especially with Jake. Jake
was her baby. Like if Angela didn't like me, Jake
wasn't allowed to like me that week. I didn't come
from the right family or I did her wrong in
(13:53):
her eyes or something. What about Billy would you describe him?
What was he like? He was a type of guy
that he could crack a joke and you would laugh
for days. My dad had a stroke, a massive brain
laying a stroke, and I remember writing Angela and I said, hey,
this is Samantha Brian Frederick's daughter. I need to get
ahold of Billy. And Billy got ahold of me, and
(14:16):
I told him my fight listened. The house that we're
living in the floor falling through. They will not let
my dad come home and let I get the floor fit.
Billy showed up with plywood feed for my animals. He
had bought me cinnamon products, a shampoo conditioner, like he
was there to help, like in his mom. I got
ahold of Billy and I'd say, listen, my mom's behind
(14:38):
on the electric bill. We're in disconnect. They're literally shutting
us off. We need a good amount of money. And
Frederika got ahold of us and she paid our electric bill.
They wasn't bad people. I mean they're bad people now,
but I honestly, in my opinion, I don't think they
were all in vault. I think there was other people
(14:59):
in ball under Angela's demand, right, is it possible that
they weren't even there and that maybe other people were
there that night. In my opinion, yes, I think they know,
but they won't speak about it. I think the boys
(15:22):
know what happened, and if they speak about it, they'll
be dead. And that's my opinion. Jake and George was
always homeschooled, like they were never in public schools. The
(15:42):
public systems that Angela was not good enough for her boy,
so her teaching her kids was better. I don't know
how much better that was, but it was teaching them
pretty much. What Angela said goes like she's off the
vibe of like if she said you're going to rub
a bank and you tell her no, like she gets scary.
(16:09):
I love the boys to death. They're a little weird,
but I love them to death. I remember decades ago
we all went to the bull riding thing and Billy
and her got my little argument. I've never seen a
grown man in an argument shut up so fast in
my life, Like the argument was over within seconds. It
(16:32):
was controlling, is what it was. And have you been
in the house when all of them were home at
the same time. Yeah, the house was always quiet, very quiet.
Normally would be Billy sitting there in a chair grinding
his teeth, just sitting there watching TV. That would be
(16:53):
like the living room area. Angela would normally in their
cooking and then off. All that in the bag was
the boys' room. To the left was Georgie's room, until
the right was Jake's room. Of course, typical boys, you're
going to have to your heads and guns in there.
And that's pretty much the house. I can't remember a
(17:17):
time that they were one of the houses burnt down
and they were living in a shack and they were
all cramped up in this little living room area and
I'm standing there by the door with my dad. It
was so quiet you could hear a pin drop. As
a reminder, this is Sammy Joe's recollection of events. I
could tell you every place that they had, every place
(17:39):
that burned down. I can't prove that it was in Churce,
but that many houses. There's the trailer, trailer, slush house,
the building. There's like a good four or five places
at Burndale pluses in my truck. There wasn't anybody home
or in the houses when they burnt down. Correct We've
(18:05):
heard for several years about suspicious fires related to Angela
and Billy Wagner, but have never been able to speak
out about it. However, now these allegations have been substantiated
in court. On May second, twenty two, Special Prosecutor Angie
Kneppa references arson in connection with the Wagner family multiple times.
(18:27):
Some of these acts are alleged. Some of these we
have again high levels of proof, specifically number one, multiple
instances of arson of various properties for their own financial gain.
Everybody in the conspiracy has their own role, and they
carry out that role. Ironically. Oftentimes Angela absents herself from
(18:50):
the crime itself. The men Jake, George and Billy carry
out the crime, and then they have a story, cover
up story. I probably had a chance to talk to George.
I honestly would, because I just want to know why
I actually want fishing with George. Shortly after and it
(19:13):
got brought up, Wait, you went fishing with George Wagner
after the murders, I asked him. I was like, I
can't believe this happened. And because him and Frankie after
a while got row close. As terrible as it is
to say, now victim Frankie Rodin and accused murderer George
(19:35):
Wagner were known to be good friends. Sammy Job calls
the time when Frankie Rodin was standing up to Jake
Wagner to defend his sister Hannah May. I did hear
about Frankie and Jay getting into it, because I guess
Jake and Hannah got into it and Jake had hit Hannah.
(19:56):
Sorry to interrupt, but just for clarity, you're referring to
to victim Frankie Rodin Hadame Rodin's older brother, right, Yeah,
but I don't know. I wasn't there or that's just
what I was told. But George like shut me out,
(20:18):
like he goes, how could we do it? Because they
were already being questioned who was going to be there
with the kids, And I was like, well, I don't know.
I was like, there's just something wrong. Like he totally
shut me out. Like I knew sometime was wrong that
day when we were talking about it, like our vision
trip was going good and it got run roll fucked.
(20:48):
Like I talked to them why they were in Alaska?
Tell me about the Alaska piece. Why Alaska that's been
the boys' dream since they were Mehi to Grosshopper. Do
you know if Angela and Hannah at any point had
a positive relationship, even back in the early days. Oh yeah,
one one time. They loved each other as far as
(21:09):
I know. But Angelo was the type of person if
you say or do something out of the way, you're
a bad person. Why, I think, honestly because Hannah was
the type of person. But first I know that's what
I mean. And Angela wasn't getting her way with the custody,
(21:31):
And I honestly feel like, and this was my opinion,
Angela was afraid that Hannah was going to take away
all visitations and that's how it was going to be.
Not only did Sammy Joe know the Wagner family, but
she also knew the Rodents intimately when they were very
(21:54):
much alive. She spent a lot of time at mother
Diana Roden's house sitting her boyfriend Frankie. How old were
you when you dated Frankie Rodin. I dated him from
seventh grade to like ninth grade. He was fun and
you just like the rest of him, like he was
so well going, give the shirt off his back, caring Malsee.
(22:15):
When you were dating Frankie, did you spend any time
at the road and home? What were they like? What
was their home like? It was fun, like it was
a live like that place was alive. Frankie would write
a bus home with me. Mostly I write a bus
home with them and just spend a lot of time
(22:36):
out there. I spent more time than even at my
own house. And was Dana close with Frankie? Oh that
was her baby boy? Like should hurt someone over her kids?
Could you physically describe her? Like? What did she look like?
Her hair was always sure? We always called her fluffy.
She was about five to seven, very loud, but yeah,
(23:01):
like I never wanted to go home, like I actually
felt like I was wanted. She would go out of
your way like my dream shoes was I called him
Abby's shoes like they were the very long shoes that
zip up the back. I can't remember what they're called
now and her and Frankie Blomingham. I had those shoes
(23:23):
for years. Did you know Hannah Gilly Frankie lover? You
could tell Sammy Joe shared a recollection she had about
Hanna me roudin Hannah. She would drive past my house
just honking, and she drove by Honk and I was
on my porch. She was I'll see you later. I
called to see you later, and I didn't get to
(23:44):
see her later because she was dead the next day.
Let's stop here for another break. While Sammy Joe's relationship
(24:05):
with Angela was similar to what we've heard from other
people and in childs that she was controlling and suspicious.
Like all people, Angela is different things to different people.
Here's Howe, a family friend who knew the Wagners both
in Ohio and Alaska. My understanding is that you had
a very close relationship with the Wagner family. I grew
(24:28):
up with them and went to church and them and
things like that. Tell me about them. What were they like?
I always thought they were great people. I've stated at
their house multiple times. Like I said, I've gone to
church with them growing up. It's kind of like a
second family to me. I thought they were decent people.
Did you remember anything about Angela Wagner. I just remember
her being the typical mom. In a million years, I
have never thought she could plot anything or do anything
(24:50):
of this sort of caliber. Like I said, just the
typical mom. She reminds me of my own mother. What
about her specifically was typical in your opinion, her attitude,
you know, just the standard mom. You know, the way
she looks. You look at her and you see mom
like she's just that friendly of a person. Just her
(25:11):
attitude in general, she's a welcoming person. You had mentioned Alaska.
Did you live in Alaska or did you visit them
while the Wagoners were in Alaska? I lived in Alaska
and they came up and visited. Tell me how old
were you at that point? I was probably thirteen fourteen
somewhere around there, just you know, a young teenager. They
were a little older than I was, so we didn't
(25:31):
really hang out a whole lot. Then I went fishing
with him once or twice in Alaska. Why Alaska do
you think? I think the real thing was the pastor
in Alaska was also the pastor in the church in
Ohio that they went to, and they knew my grandparents,
so they had a lot of people up here that
in Alaska is just the place that everybody wants to
come and visit. So I assume that you know, they
wanted to come to see old friends and things like that.
(25:53):
And when they came, that was before the massacre. Correct, Yeah,
this was before. It's at least thing serious. Why they
went to Alaska and moreover, why would they go back
to Pike County. They came the first time to visit
and then the whole Pike County massacre thing happened, and
they came back to Alaska, but they had no contact
with anybody. They didn't talk to any of us, Like
(26:16):
we reached out, were like, hey, what's up, how are
you guys? We're sorry this happened, and they never once
talked to us. They moved to a different city. I
believe they lived in Saladna or Cassia Lock or something
like that, and they never had any sort of contact
with me, my grandparents and my sisters, the pastor nothing.
What do you make to that? It was definitely strange
hearing people were murdered, then they show up out of
(26:37):
nowhere coming back to Alaska. It was it was definitely fishy.
And that's when I kind of cut ties, you know,
just just to be on the stais. I didn't want
to be involved in anything of that sort. When they
were in fact arrested for the murders, that must have
been a huge shock. Oh, I cried, I said in
my apartment, and I cried live for my art because
she's just, you know, one of the sweetest people ever.
I just don't think it's going to add up. And
(26:58):
I think people do dumb thing for their family. People
say they do anything for their family, and I think
she did do anything for her family, as terrible as
it was. As we continue speaking with more people, much
more information is coming out, including other acts the Wagners
(27:18):
have allegedly committed over the years. This is according to prosecutors,
the Wagner family tracked her, they threatened her, they threatened
her family's lives. The family definitely on that side. They
did stuff to make money other than legally. It begs
the question of how why their net is spread and
(27:39):
what other people may be involved. For the first time
on this podcast, we'll hear Jake Wagner's ex wife Elizabeth.
They keep being asked, did you know Jake Wagner was
a murderer before you married him? What I'm getting real say, ooh,
have nothing to do with the murders. This voice belongs
to another person who has requested anonymity due to their
(28:02):
proximity to the Wagner family. Is Angela. The monster or
did she marry into monsters. I feel like Jilly's a
type that would pay someone in prison to kill his
own kids. More on that next time. For more information
on case photos, follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios.
(28:27):
The Piked and Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydecker, Jeff Shane,
Chris Graves and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed
by Jeff Tis, music by Jared Aston, audio mixing by
Ken Novak. The Piked and Massacre is a production of
Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
(28:48):
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
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