June 29, 2022 • 35 mins
As George and Billy Wager await their trials, locals anxiously await justice and grapple with understanding the increasingly complicated legal proceedings. Our team of experts examines and breaks down the evidence as well as what the trials could look like. We also take a closer look at the lawyers and judges who are helping shape the Wagner men’s fate.
Check us out online:
www.instagram.com/PiketonMassacre
www.twitter.com/PiketonMassacre
www.facebook.com/PiketonMassacre
Learn more about your ad choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
George Wagner, the Fourth was trying to keep the testimony
of family members who have already confessed out of his trial.
His lawyers argued Tuesday that his brother Jake and his
mother Angela should not be allowed to testify against him.
Defense lawyer John Parker argued that such an agreement violates
due process. In the end Circuit Court Judge Randy Deering
(00:25):
ruled against the defense motion, meaning that both Jake and
Angela can testify and that their confessions can be used
in court. Welcome to the Pike and Massacre, a production
of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode six, Trial
(00:46):
and Error. I'm Courtney, I'm Shong, a television producer at
Katie Studios. With Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. We're breaking
down the court proceedings against the Wagners as they currently stand,
as well as looking into information on the court room players.
The test is, can you get twelve people from Pike
County that can be fair and impartial and give that
(01:07):
mister Wagner, give the State of Ohio fair trial. On
January nineteenth, twenty twenty two, George Wagner's attorneys filed emotion
for a change of venue. They basically outline the reasons
why they believe a fair and impartial jury cannot be
seated in Pike County. They say they will be providing
the court with evidence of this just prejudicial negative pre
(01:29):
trial publicity. I mean there are people who are scared
as Wagner's too, So you may find people who are like,
I am not doing this. Death penalty cases are hard,
and I think they're meant to be hard, to be honest,
because there's a lot at stake in Ohio. Just knowing
about it, or being present, or driving the getaway car
or being a part of this conspiracy. In Ohio, you're
(01:52):
just as guilty. George. The Forest case is set to
go to trial, and that is even if they can
find a jury in time, because in Ohio, when you're
selecting a jury, you have to pick a jury in
the venue in which the crime happened. As a reminder,
at this point, the Wagner family, one seemingly tight knit,
(02:14):
are fully unraveling. Jake Wagner was the first Domino to fall,
pleading guilty to murdering five of the a Rodents in
exchange for testifying against his family matriarch. Angelo Wagner folded next,
pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit aggravated murder and other
charges as part of her plea deal. Here's reporter and
Nette Levy. Angelo Wagner pleaded guilty. She admitted to her
(02:39):
role in the planning of these homicides, and she could
get out after serving thirty years. It's not a given,
but she's eligible for release after serving thirty years. She
admitted to basically helping plan all of this and carry
it out. That she did not go to the scenes
of the murders that night. That leaves two remaining suspects,
(03:05):
father Billy Wagner and his thirty year old son George Wagner,
both have pled not guilty and are awaiting trials. In
some of these hearings all of four defendants. Each defendant
was made an offer by the state to cooperate, so
Jake and Angela took that offer, and it appears that
(03:28):
George the fourth and Billy did not. So that's kind
of where we are right now. A Neette the arises
that there's little chance for a plea deal for George
and his father at this stage. After four years of
steadfastly denying any involvement in the slayings. I would think
the only incentive for either one of them to plead
(03:49):
guilty would be to go to the state and say, Okay,
I'll plead guilty. Just take the death coin of the
off the table. I don't see why the state would
offer them any reduced time, especially if you've got two
other family members who are willing to testify against that.
Jake pleaded guilty and he's going to present for the
(04:09):
rest of his life. The only way he's leaving there
is in a box, and he knows that. So there
would be no reason that the state, in my opinion,
would make any other offer to Billy or George. The
State of Ohio was represented by fusecuting attorney Robert Junk,
(04:30):
also by Special prosecuting Attorney to Angela Kaneppa. Ajie Kaneppa
has been a special prosecutor on this case. From the outset.
We've heard a lot from Angie Kaneppa in the courtroom
this season, but didn't know much about her. Here's former
prosecutor Anne Flanagan, followed by Stephanie and Jeff Well. She
seems very calm and it's a nerve wracking experience because
(04:53):
there's so much you have to stay on top of it.
It seems like they're depending on her quite a bit,
but she doesn't seem I don't buy that. She seems
very self possessed and focused. And I think in my mind,
when I've handled faces and that often had children as
victims or others, I know that I am work and
fighting for that victim and for that family, and that
(05:15):
helps me put it aside any of my own nervousness
or etginess. Not that it won't be there, but it
helps to me put it in the right place. So
here's what we know about Angie Kaneppa. She's the special prosecutor.
We know that she studied undergrad at Bowling Green State University.
(05:35):
She also went to law school at Ohio State. Started
practicing law in nineteen ninety, and she worked for the
Franklin County Prosecutor's Office in Columbus for over twenty years
before going to the Ohio Attorney General's Office in twenty thirteen.
In May of twenty twenty, she raised eyebrows when she
resigned from the Attorney General's office with a one sentence
(05:57):
letter that read effective June twenty twenty, I hereby resign
my position as Section chiefs but in the Special Prosecution
section of the Ohio Attorney General's Office. Now, when asked
for a comment about the sudden and sort of kurt departure,
a spokesperson for the office referred to the press back
to Kneppa. That would just to me imply that they
(06:19):
didn't want to deal with it, and they were washing
their hands clean of her and her relationship with the office.
That's interesting that she resigned mid trial. You know, they
were in the thick of it in June of twenty twenty,
and these trials were ongoing and just really about to
heat up. So for her to do a heart and
then come back as a special prosecutor is interesting. I
(06:41):
mean when it happened, people and pikedon were like, are
the trials falling apart? Is everything folding? Is this going away?
It brought a lot of uncertainty to the case, at
least for the public. However, it couldn't have been all
bad blood, because just a few weeks after this resignation,
Kneppa was brought back on the case as a special
prosecutor at the rate of sixty five dollars an hour.
That's actually around double the average of a prosecutors salary
(07:04):
in Ohio, who usually make around thirty three dollars an hour.
And to sort of add perspective to that, defense attorneys
can make six hundred dollars an hour, if not more
sometimes so to work for the state as an attorney,
you're definitely not in it for the money. Each Wagner
trial was expected to cost a million dollars for the state.
(07:25):
That's actually a bit lower than the national average, which
is about one point three million per case. In talking
to a lot of Piked and locals, people in Pike
County particularly are kind of frustrated and fed up with
how long these cases are taking because they feel that
it's taxpayer dollars that are being spent. You've got to
keep in mind, though, this is for capital murder trials
(07:47):
at one point, those do take time, right, the wheels
of justice sometimes can move slowly, and perhaps for good reason.
Rob Junk is an important figure in Pike County and
plays a very large role in the prosecution of the
four Wagners. At age fifty five, Rob Junk has been
practicing law since nineteen ninety one. After completing his undergrad
(08:08):
at Case Western Reserve University. He also went to law
school at Cincinnati College of Law. He's been prosecuting attorney
in Pike County since being elected in nineteen ninety six,
and most recently, he actually ran to become the Pike
County Commons plea judge, an election that he won, and
he's due to actually take office in twenty twenty three
(08:29):
at some point. It's pretty unclear at the moment how
this shift in his position will affect the Wagner cases,
but as part of his campaign, he vowed to fairly
and impartially enforce and apply the law. So aside from
working the road in cases and winning elections, Junk is
also involved in a pretty public feud with former Pike
(08:49):
County Sheriff Charles Reader, who we all know has come
under some scrutiny for illegal activities that he's partaken in.
It all started in November twenty eighteen, when there was
an miss complaint filed against Reader, just days before the
Wagoners were arrested. The complaint read Reader just does whatever
he wants and no one ever calls him on it.
(09:10):
We are scared to death of him. He is unstable
and threatens people. In May of twenty nineteen, Junk asked
Reader to step down from any criminal investigations. Reader fired
back in a public and sense deleted Facebook post that read,
put your seatbelt on, buddy. No one else may stand
up to you and your crooked as connections, but I will,
so help me God. At one point, Reader wrote another
(09:33):
post saying it's past time to clean the junk out
of Pike County. Rob Junk responded also on Facebook, surmising
that the request to recuse himself from investigations cause the outburst.
He wrote again on Facebook, apparently this makes me a
serpent hiding in the shadows because I and my office
are following the law. So these are two publicly elected
(09:58):
officials fighting on Facebook. It's a pretty big deal to
have a very public dispute like this between the prosecutor
and also the sheriff, who was in office when these
murders happened and is currently doing time for allegedly taking bribes.
It could be seen as a very messy feud being
(10:19):
played out publicly. While George Wagner's defense team staunchly defends
his innocence, the prosecution's theory is that George had his
hand in the murders as much as anyone else. Veteran
Ohio prosecutor and Flanagan elaborates on this. When you hear
these people bolstering each other and actually sharing ideas and dynamics,
(10:41):
they're just as much a part of all that ended
up happening as the person who actually pulled the trigger.
And I know that, and I think jurors know that.
People know that, but will they really hold them accountable.
We know that people in a mob act differently than
people individually. If people in that mob step back and
(11:02):
don't participate and step away from it, it may not happen.
And what a difference that would have made in the
lives of the Rodents. Jake and his testimony said his
brother was at the crime scene but didn't shoot anyone.
Here's pretty, Sir, Chris Graves. The information she's referencing is
taken directly from Motion eighty. Jake's own conduct in the
(11:24):
murders has been corroborated by his disclosure of murder weapons.
It is also true that the truck allegedly used by
Jake and Billy in the murders has been recovered as
a result of his proffer, but Jake has stated clearly
that George did not shoot new One, did not fire
a shot, was not supposed to go with Jake and
Billy on the murder spree, and only went in as
a last second to protect Jake from Billy, who was
(11:47):
thought he might kill Jake at the end of the
series of aggregated murders, presumably to get rid of a witness.
In the state of Ohio, planning and executing a murder
is still murder even if you don't pull the trigger.
There's also evidence that George bought the truck used the
net of the murder. George Wagner's child has said for
(12:08):
August twenty ninth his father, Billy Wagner's child will be
later this year, and as often happens in murder trials,
George's defense team has followed a flurry of motions to
suppress evidence and expert testimony to stymy the prosecution's case,
Defendish Motion sixty five, which is entitled motion to compel
production of other acts evidence pursuant to Evidence Rule four
(12:31):
or four B, and then Defendis's Motion Number seventy seven.
Pre trial motions on both sides especially in a murder case,
are routine. The presiding judge holds initial hearings to see
whether certain evidence should be allowed in front of a jury,
and in this case, where the trial should even happen.
Today's May second, twenty twenty two. Unless you like hearing,
(12:52):
we'd have a hearing schedule along motions today. The defendant
was present in court for those attorney's jaw Patrick Parker
and Richard M. Nash. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff on
what we know about George Wagner the fourth defense team.
According to our research, it's actually not that common to
have more than one criminal defense lawyer. However, when you're
(13:15):
being charged with a crime as severe as George's, having
more than one lawyer actually might be pretty helpful in
the sense that they have different areas of focus, or
that they're able to work different hours and thus get
more work done. George Wagner's defense attorney is John Patrick Parker.
He's been practicing criminal defense in Ohio for thirty three
years and is based out of Cleveland. He also attended
(13:38):
Case Western Reserve Law School. The second attorney for George
Wagner is Richard Nash, and Richard is a local lawyer
based out of Portsmith. His areas of focus are criminal defense,
traffic offenses, as well as post conviction dealings. At forty
six years old, he was born in Oklahoma City and
(13:58):
attended Cleveland d University for law school and has been
practicing law since two thousand and four. In our research
of Richard Nash, we actually found out that a previous
client is also involved in this story. He represented none
other than Michael Moran when he was facing sex trafficking
charges back in twenty twenty. And remember Michael Moran represented
(14:22):
George's grandfather and Angela's father, petty criminal Pug Carter years ago.
This means that the lawyer who is currently defending George
used to defend the lawyer who defended Angela's dad. It's
a little complicated, but it speaks to how this community
is very much tied together. It's super interesting, by the way,
even just seeing all of the players come together because
(14:45):
they're steeped in history. We're going to take a break.
We'll be back in a moment. Under federal rules, the
presiding judge is termed quote, the gate keeper of what
evidence will be allowed. Here's thirty year Hamilton County, Ohio
(15:05):
Judge Patrick Dinklocker on the functions motion, Serf, you're cleaning
the slate so you can have a nice, clean trial
where you're getting rid of all those things that Wait
a minute, I don't like the color of the curtains
in this room. You file motion. You don't want to
bring that motion in the middle of the trial, because
it's like you're waiting halfway through the trial and there's
no sense enough. And in simplest forms, these are things
(15:28):
that need to be taken care of so that you
can have a fair, clean trial. In a drug possession case,
for example, the defense might ask the judge to exclude
drug paraphernalia that the defense argues was attained through the
legal search of the defendant's house. In a murder trial
such as this, a motion may seek to suppress key
witnessed testimony or ballistics findings. Often, motions highlight issues with
(15:52):
the case that become the basis for an appeal down
the line. One woman concerned for the defense was the
issue of venue. George the Force Child was originally slated
from March twentieth, twenty twenty, but in January, his attorney
issued emotion to change the trial venue to a different jurisdiction.
Judges is obviously one of the highest profile cases in
(16:13):
the history of this community. There were news conferences held
by the Attorney General, by the local sheriff, by different
members of law enforcement updating the community on the status
of the investigation. Went on for two and a half years,
and this is subject to great social media discussion in
the community. And it's our point of view that a
(16:35):
jury will not be able to be selected here. That's
fair to our client, given all of this publicity, given
all the notoriety of this case, we're asking the court
to change venue. In essence, the defense argued that the
murders were so widely followed locally that Poidier the process
of finding impartial jurors was impossible in Pike County. We
(16:56):
don't think the court can get a fair jury, even
though there are many people that probably would give it
their best effort. But we don't think if people are
being really honest with themselves and with the court, that
they're going to be able to say that they're able
to put aside everything they know about the case, whether
it's true or not true, and give George a fair trial.
(17:18):
Mike Allen is a criminal defense attorney in Cincinnati an
illegal analyst for Fox nineteen and Cincinnati. He makes a
crucial point about the essential fairness of most chairsts. It's
a motion for change of venue. Those motions are frequently
filed in high profile cases. They're frequently filed, but seldom granted. However,
(17:39):
in this case, though, because Pike County is such a
small county and I don't know how many registered voters
they have, they might have a problem seating a jury.
But here's the thing, and this is probably the most
important part of this, and I don't think a lot
of people realize it. If a potential juror who is
(18:01):
under oath answers a judge's question, can you divorce yourselves
and block out of your mind any pre trial publicity
that you have heard and render a verdict based upon
the evidence and the law. If that juror says, yes,
your honor, then that's a good juror. I mean, just
(18:21):
because someone has seen or heard or read a newspaper
article about it, that does not disqualify them, because if
it did, probably nine of the people in Pike County
would have seen or heard something about it retire Judge
Sylvia Hendon, who's been thirty three years in the benjam
(18:43):
Hamilton County, two hundred miles from Piketon, has a different
view of things. I think the change of venue in
this case is probably going to be the most hotly debated,
both before and after the trial. Again, Pike County is
a county of somewhere between twenty five and thirty thousand people.
It is going to be extremely difficult, in my opinion,
(19:06):
to find people in that county who don't know somebody
involved in the case and don't have an opinion on
what happened here. Again, my Allen, if it were not
a small county, I think it would be a no
brainer that the venue would not change. But because it
(19:27):
is such a small county with a small number of
registered voters, they might blow through all of them. But
there used to be a law, and I think it's
still there that if you run out of registered voters,
a judge can basically send his ballot or the cops
or anybody at his discretion to just literally pull him
(19:47):
off the street. The other thing you have to think about,
and I thought about while reading this thing with respect
to a change of venue. Okay, he grants a change
of venue, but to where? I mean, where in the
state of Ohio, in the Midwest, where could a judge
send it to where there was not all this pre
(20:10):
trial publicity. I mean, as you well know that this
is a case of immense public curiosity and people are
going to read about it and watch things on TV
and read the newspaper. It's just like, okay, we'll change
the venue, but where and to what end. In addition
(20:31):
to the venue challenge, An Flanagan says, a lot of
potential tours will simply not want to serve on this
controversial trial. We see jurs that don't want to be there.
They're just uncomfortable, and so what happens. Sometimes you'll see
one jur say I can't be fair, and you try
(20:51):
to quest someone why they can't be fair, and they
really don't have any reason. They're just saying they can't
be fair, right that this or that. Well, when two
jurs down the road, we'll come up at the same thing.
They learned how to get off of a journey. Judge
Patrick Dinklocker, famous for trying the first woman in Hamilton
County for the death penalty, lays out another potential scenario
(21:14):
of jury contamination. Okay, you said you saw the newspaper,
what did you actually read? Did you see it on
social media? Did you talk to your friends about it?
Did you text anybody about it? I think those are
all relevant questions and questions that the attorneys will ask
regarding you know, whether or not they're going to be
fair and impartial, because they can obviously say you, I'm
fair and impartial. But if the lead up to that
(21:36):
is they wrote on Facebook saying, Wow, this guy's guilty
as can be, you know, and they admit to something, well,
then the judge is in a different situation. They've got
this guy, hume. If you can't get twelve people that
can put upside all the social media all or whatever
the publicity they've seen and whatever, then you're right. Then
you change the venue. And that's something that both sides
(21:58):
will probably bring up. On May second, twenty twenty two,
Judge Randy Deering torpedo the defense's motion for a new venue,
ruling that George the fourth trial would remain in Pike County.
The ruling cleared a path for the trial that reporter
Anginette Leevey says will be a heated one. This is
(22:19):
a really old courthouse. I think it's from the Civil
War era, so the air conditioning is not great. So
jury selection starting on July fifth? Could you get any hotter?
I mean, could you kick any more uncomfortable time of
the year in Ohio where it gets so muggy and
gross and humid because of being in the Ohio River Valley.
(22:41):
Could you pick a worse time to do this? No
matter the weather, it's on Judge Randy Daring to oversee
this trial. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Here's what we know
about Judge Randy Deering. He went to undergrad and law
school at Ohio State and started practicing law in nineteen
seventy four. Judge Deering took office in two thousand and
(23:04):
five and was reelected in twenty ten and most recently
in twenty sixteen. Interestingly enough, in May of twenty fifteen,
Judge Deering swore in Charles Reader as the forty first
Pike County Sheriff, and Charles Reader is obviously very involved
in this story. We called the County Clerk's office, who
informed us that at seventy years old, Judge Deering is
(23:26):
now too old to officially serve as a judge, meaning
that he can't run again. His time as judge will
end in January or February of twenty twenty three. That
being said, because the Wagner cases will likely be ongoing
at that time, the Supreme Court could appoint him as
a retired judge over the case or cases so that
(23:46):
he could finish them out. The trial promises to be
a long one. There are some three hundred and fifty witnesses.
Imagine the problem that many witnesses would have created if
the venue were forced to move or to the fourth
attorney has press judged during to release and seal a
pre trial copy of transcripts of all witnesses who testified
(24:07):
before the grand jury in twenty eighteen. The prosecution of
counter that the Ohio State Supreme Court already ruled the
defense is not entitled to that information. The list of
witnesses is extensive, but Ann Flanagan points out that there
are four suspects and eight victims. In a tangled case
like this, with so many suspects witnesses at up, you
(24:31):
have eight individuals chilled, and I don't know how many
corners participated in the autopsies. I don't know if it
was all one or if it was a number, but
just right there, just think you have a multiplied factor
because all of those homicides are part of each one
of these defendant's cases. And then you have all of
(24:53):
the analysts. You have a blood witnesses, you get the
shoot print witnesses, you have custodians. Who's the custodian of
the Walmart shoe department, I mean, and the receipt how
did they get the bookkeeping records of the receipt and
the video authentication from Walmart? So theoretically you get you
have like three witnesses from Walmart just to say, yes,
(25:16):
this is the receipt, we keep it in the ordinary
course of business. And somebody who TEX does the same
thing for video, and somebody that handles the shoe department,
and you can say, yes, we keep athletic work shoes
or whatever. In a May hearing, as George, the fourth
defense team continued to hurl motions at the bench, George
Wagner bearded and Balding began to look defeated. It's worth
(25:39):
noting that the defendants do not appear in court and shackles.
This is done so they can avoid the appearance of guilt.
Billy and George, you know, all of them. Actually, anytime
they've appeared in court, Pike County bought a stun best.
It's like this thing that they wear under their clothes
so that if they get out a line or try
to escape, or they grab a pen and try to
stab somebody or whatever. Literally, the deputies can push a
(26:03):
button and I think eighty thousand bolts into their bodies.
We have to remember that all this legal wrangling is
particularly intense because George Wagner is facing the death penalty.
As a reminder, Jake Wagner's pleadal takes the death sentence
off the table for him and his family members, but
(26:26):
only if he testifies to the satisfaction of the prosecution.
The jury must carefully consider the possibility that just because
George is Jake's brother and Angela and Billy's son, it
does not necessarily mean he pulled the trigger that night
in April twenty sixteen, and if he didn't actually shoot anyone,
(26:48):
should he face legal injection. Here's George Wagner's defense team.
What is really important here is that the court talks
about a basic premise of our criminal justice system is
as follows. Our law punishes people for what they do
and not who they are. And why is it important
in this case. The reason it's important in this case
(27:11):
is that the court is aware the state is arguing
that George is part of a conspiracy and a criminal
enterprise and participate in the aggravated murders and the other
twenty two counts. And a large part of the state's argument,
we anticipate, is he's a Wagner and this is how
the Wagners operate. Now, there certainly is a conspiracy charge,
(27:33):
we understand that, and there's specific law with respect to conspiracy,
but it doesn't necessarily apply to everything. So we think
it's important that the court keep this basic premise of
our justice system in mind and at the appropriate time
and struct the jury concerning that. And the event of
a guilty verdict for George Wagner, there's the possibility that
(27:53):
the death penalty will still be on the table. Here's
a plan again, and Judge Klocker to breakdown on what
happens next. And I gotta be careful with what I say,
because you're supposed to treat the guy who breaks a
window and goes into drug store the same as you
do a des penalty person. But the practicality of it
is that you know you're dealing with the most serious
(28:17):
of cases. You know you have to do everything you
can to try to get it right because there's a
life on the line, and at least for some of us,
life is very very, very very important. At this point,
we would say there would be two phases, and so
the first phase is the liability or trying to determine
(28:40):
did the state in fact prove that he was a
complicitor in these homicides as to George the fourth And
then the second phase would be a weighing process for
the jury. It's called a mitigation hearing. It is unique
and that this is the one time where you have
jurors essentially participate in the decisions. Typically, for all other crimes,
(29:03):
the judge will make the decision on sentencing within the
guidelines of our legislature. However, in the capital case, the
jury will be part of a weighing process. They are
still not sentencing, but they are going to give a
recommendation to the judge, should he have an opportunity at parole,
should he have the highest number of years before that
(29:25):
opportunity at parole comes up. Should he have no chance
at parole just a life sentence, or should be in
fact be exposed to execution the definitely. Ultimately, the jury
can be swapped for a three judge panel, the defending
can elect to have a three judge panel. Then the
three judge panel tries the case. Okay, they render a
(29:48):
verdict this whether or not the person is guilty or not,
and then they sentence okay, which you know can be
the death penalty, can be life without parole, life after
twenty or thirty or whatever. The judges can do that,
but most times the jury trial, So the trial is
conducted in front of the jury because obviously you don't
get to the death penalty phase until you make a
determination that the guy's guilty of what he's charged with.
(30:10):
And for example, I mean he's charged with aggravated murder
with what they call death specs. There are further hearings
to be had before the defendant's fade is sealed. Eventually
the case may head to the highest court in the
state of Ohio. But if the jury does go ahead
and signs off and makes the recommendation that they believe
the death penalty is appropriate. Then it goes to the
judge to make a decision. The judge has another hearing
(30:33):
with the defendant participating, counsel participating. You know, a lot
of different things go into it. Then the judge makes
a decision. If the judge says the death penalty is
warranted in the case, then the judge signs off on that.
The next step then is to go to the Ohio
Supreme Court, and then the Ohio Supreme Court reviews the
whole record, reviews everything they can review about the case.
(30:55):
Whatever defense counsel brings up is something that they believe
should be a reason to throw out the death penalty,
or throughout the conviction, or throughout the whole case. At
every phase, the onus is always on the honorable person
on the bench to rule as fairly as possible. I
think you truly, truly, truly have to want to be
fair and treat everybody fairly. You truly have to seek justice.
(31:20):
Everybody's got a different definition of justice. I understand that.
But for me, you want to be able to walk
off that bench and say to yourself, I did the
best I could. I try to be fair to everybody.
When I think about a really good judge, I think
about somebody who is willing to put in the time
(31:41):
to read everything there is to read, maybe most importantly,
to listen to everything that's being presented. And I think
probably paramount is to keep an open mind until the
end of the case. Now that's a hard thing to
do because everybody brings to the bench their own personal experiences.
(32:04):
But it is just critically important that you don't come
in there with your mind made up. You do a
disservice to your oath if you do that. But an
excellent judge needs a jury capable of looking at the
case squarely. I think it's real important. And I've told
over the years a number of attorneys that we're not
here trying to get twelve people that are going to
(32:24):
go for you, And we're not here for the other
side of getting twelve people. You guys are supposed to
be working to get a fair and impartial jury. That's
your job. Now, that's easy for me to say. For
the prosecution, for example, all it takes is one person.
They've got one person that you know is well. I
really don't like the death penalty. I don't think it's
(32:45):
a good thing. I really don't want to do it.
I mean that sounds like kind of a weak juror
for the prosecution. I think you'd agree. Okay, so they
maybe have to use a peremptory to get rid of
that person. Let's stop here for another break. As Judge
(33:08):
Hendon points out, the whole legal procedure, while carefully architected
to bring justice and closure to families, can do nothing
to restore what's been lost. If there is a tragedy
greater than the tragedy that unfolded in this case, it
has to be the fact that this child is now
without a mother and a father in a set of
(33:32):
circumstances that someday she'll be old enough to understand it's
tragic beyond description. Reflecting on her time as prosecutor, and
Flannagan comments on the distinct feeling of loss in the courtroom,
that's one of the things I don't miss. And I
didn't know how much I didn't miss until I started
(33:53):
reviewing all of this, and I thought, oh my gosh,
it just springs back so much and how hard the
attorneys for both sides are to bring fair justice to
their sides. But because they're good advocates and they do care.
I think it's just a tremendously intense experience and one
can only imagine how it comes across to the families
(34:16):
who are sitting there on the personal side of appearing
about the loss of someone and not really interested in
the technology behind shoeprints, who are blood spatter or this
or that. They just start feeling that someone they loved
just gone. More on that next time. If you're enjoying
The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our other hit series,
(34:38):
Crazy and Love. New episodes there every Tuesday. Wherever you
get your podcasts. For more information and case photos, follow
us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and
Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydeger, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves,
Alan Wader, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed
(35:01):
by Jeff Tis. Music by Jared Aston. The Piked and
Massacre is a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
George Wagner, the Fourth was trying to keep the testimony
of family members who have already confessed out of his trial.
His lawyers argued Tuesday that his brother Jake and his
mother Angela should not be allowed to testify against him.
Defense lawyer John Parker argued that such an agreement violates
due process. In the end Circuit Court Judge Randy Deering
(00:25):
ruled against the defense motion, meaning that both Jake and
Angela can testify and that their confessions can be used
in court. Welcome to the Pike and Massacre, a production
of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode six, Trial
(00:46):
and Error. I'm Courtney, I'm Shong, a television producer at
Katie Studios. With Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. We're breaking
down the court proceedings against the Wagners as they currently stand,
as well as looking into information on the court room players.
The test is, can you get twelve people from Pike
County that can be fair and impartial and give that
(01:07):
mister Wagner, give the State of Ohio fair trial. On
January nineteenth, twenty twenty two, George Wagner's attorneys filed emotion
for a change of venue. They basically outline the reasons
why they believe a fair and impartial jury cannot be
seated in Pike County. They say they will be providing
the court with evidence of this just prejudicial negative pre
(01:29):
trial publicity. I mean there are people who are scared
as Wagner's too, So you may find people who are like,
I am not doing this. Death penalty cases are hard,
and I think they're meant to be hard, to be honest,
because there's a lot at stake in Ohio. Just knowing
about it, or being present, or driving the getaway car
or being a part of this conspiracy. In Ohio, you're
(01:52):
just as guilty. George. The Forest case is set to
go to trial, and that is even if they can
find a jury in time, because in Ohio, when you're
selecting a jury, you have to pick a jury in
the venue in which the crime happened. As a reminder,
at this point, the Wagner family, one seemingly tight knit,
(02:14):
are fully unraveling. Jake Wagner was the first Domino to fall,
pleading guilty to murdering five of the a Rodents in
exchange for testifying against his family matriarch. Angelo Wagner folded next,
pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit aggravated murder and other
charges as part of her plea deal. Here's reporter and
Nette Levy. Angelo Wagner pleaded guilty. She admitted to her
(02:39):
role in the planning of these homicides, and she could
get out after serving thirty years. It's not a given,
but she's eligible for release after serving thirty years. She
admitted to basically helping plan all of this and carry
it out. That she did not go to the scenes
of the murders that night. That leaves two remaining suspects,
(03:05):
father Billy Wagner and his thirty year old son George Wagner,
both have pled not guilty and are awaiting trials. In
some of these hearings all of four defendants. Each defendant
was made an offer by the state to cooperate, so
Jake and Angela took that offer, and it appears that
(03:28):
George the fourth and Billy did not. So that's kind
of where we are right now. A Neette the arises
that there's little chance for a plea deal for George
and his father at this stage. After four years of
steadfastly denying any involvement in the slayings. I would think
the only incentive for either one of them to plead
(03:49):
guilty would be to go to the state and say, Okay,
I'll plead guilty. Just take the death coin of the
off the table. I don't see why the state would
offer them any reduced time, especially if you've got two
other family members who are willing to testify against that.
Jake pleaded guilty and he's going to present for the
(04:09):
rest of his life. The only way he's leaving there
is in a box, and he knows that. So there
would be no reason that the state, in my opinion,
would make any other offer to Billy or George. The
State of Ohio was represented by fusecuting attorney Robert Junk,
(04:30):
also by Special prosecuting Attorney to Angela Kaneppa. Ajie Kaneppa
has been a special prosecutor on this case. From the outset.
We've heard a lot from Angie Kaneppa in the courtroom
this season, but didn't know much about her. Here's former
prosecutor Anne Flanagan, followed by Stephanie and Jeff Well. She
seems very calm and it's a nerve wracking experience because
(04:53):
there's so much you have to stay on top of it.
It seems like they're depending on her quite a bit,
but she doesn't seem I don't buy that. She seems
very self possessed and focused. And I think in my mind,
when I've handled faces and that often had children as
victims or others, I know that I am work and
fighting for that victim and for that family, and that
(05:15):
helps me put it aside any of my own nervousness
or etginess. Not that it won't be there, but it
helps to me put it in the right place. So
here's what we know about Angie Kaneppa. She's the special prosecutor.
We know that she studied undergrad at Bowling Green State University.
(05:35):
She also went to law school at Ohio State. Started
practicing law in nineteen ninety, and she worked for the
Franklin County Prosecutor's Office in Columbus for over twenty years
before going to the Ohio Attorney General's Office in twenty thirteen.
In May of twenty twenty, she raised eyebrows when she
resigned from the Attorney General's office with a one sentence
(05:57):
letter that read effective June twenty twenty, I hereby resign
my position as Section chiefs but in the Special Prosecution
section of the Ohio Attorney General's Office. Now, when asked
for a comment about the sudden and sort of kurt departure,
a spokesperson for the office referred to the press back
to Kneppa. That would just to me imply that they
(06:19):
didn't want to deal with it, and they were washing
their hands clean of her and her relationship with the office.
That's interesting that she resigned mid trial. You know, they
were in the thick of it in June of twenty twenty,
and these trials were ongoing and just really about to
heat up. So for her to do a heart and
then come back as a special prosecutor is interesting. I
(06:41):
mean when it happened, people and pikedon were like, are
the trials falling apart? Is everything folding? Is this going away?
It brought a lot of uncertainty to the case, at
least for the public. However, it couldn't have been all
bad blood, because just a few weeks after this resignation,
Kneppa was brought back on the case as a special
prosecutor at the rate of sixty five dollars an hour.
That's actually around double the average of a prosecutors salary
(07:04):
in Ohio, who usually make around thirty three dollars an hour.
And to sort of add perspective to that, defense attorneys
can make six hundred dollars an hour, if not more
sometimes so to work for the state as an attorney,
you're definitely not in it for the money. Each Wagner
trial was expected to cost a million dollars for the state.
(07:25):
That's actually a bit lower than the national average, which
is about one point three million per case. In talking
to a lot of Piked and locals, people in Pike
County particularly are kind of frustrated and fed up with
how long these cases are taking because they feel that
it's taxpayer dollars that are being spent. You've got to
keep in mind, though, this is for capital murder trials
(07:47):
at one point, those do take time, right, the wheels
of justice sometimes can move slowly, and perhaps for good reason.
Rob Junk is an important figure in Pike County and
plays a very large role in the prosecution of the
four Wagners. At age fifty five, Rob Junk has been
practicing law since nineteen ninety one. After completing his undergrad
(08:08):
at Case Western Reserve University. He also went to law
school at Cincinnati College of Law. He's been prosecuting attorney
in Pike County since being elected in nineteen ninety six,
and most recently, he actually ran to become the Pike
County Commons plea judge, an election that he won, and
he's due to actually take office in twenty twenty three
(08:29):
at some point. It's pretty unclear at the moment how
this shift in his position will affect the Wagner cases,
but as part of his campaign, he vowed to fairly
and impartially enforce and apply the law. So aside from
working the road in cases and winning elections, Junk is
also involved in a pretty public feud with former Pike
(08:49):
County Sheriff Charles Reader, who we all know has come
under some scrutiny for illegal activities that he's partaken in.
It all started in November twenty eighteen, when there was
an miss complaint filed against Reader, just days before the
Wagoners were arrested. The complaint read Reader just does whatever
he wants and no one ever calls him on it.
(09:10):
We are scared to death of him. He is unstable
and threatens people. In May of twenty nineteen, Junk asked
Reader to step down from any criminal investigations. Reader fired
back in a public and sense deleted Facebook post that read,
put your seatbelt on, buddy. No one else may stand
up to you and your crooked as connections, but I will,
so help me God. At one point, Reader wrote another
(09:33):
post saying it's past time to clean the junk out
of Pike County. Rob Junk responded also on Facebook, surmising
that the request to recuse himself from investigations cause the outburst.
He wrote again on Facebook, apparently this makes me a
serpent hiding in the shadows because I and my office
are following the law. So these are two publicly elected
(09:58):
officials fighting on Facebook. It's a pretty big deal to
have a very public dispute like this between the prosecutor
and also the sheriff, who was in office when these
murders happened and is currently doing time for allegedly taking bribes.
It could be seen as a very messy feud being
(10:19):
played out publicly. While George Wagner's defense team staunchly defends
his innocence, the prosecution's theory is that George had his
hand in the murders as much as anyone else. Veteran
Ohio prosecutor and Flanagan elaborates on this. When you hear
these people bolstering each other and actually sharing ideas and dynamics,
(10:41):
they're just as much a part of all that ended
up happening as the person who actually pulled the trigger.
And I know that, and I think jurors know that.
People know that, but will they really hold them accountable.
We know that people in a mob act differently than
people individually. If people in that mob step back and
(11:02):
don't participate and step away from it, it may not happen.
And what a difference that would have made in the
lives of the Rodents. Jake and his testimony said his
brother was at the crime scene but didn't shoot anyone.
Here's pretty, Sir, Chris Graves. The information she's referencing is
taken directly from Motion eighty. Jake's own conduct in the
(11:24):
murders has been corroborated by his disclosure of murder weapons.
It is also true that the truck allegedly used by
Jake and Billy in the murders has been recovered as
a result of his proffer, but Jake has stated clearly
that George did not shoot new One, did not fire
a shot, was not supposed to go with Jake and
Billy on the murder spree, and only went in as
a last second to protect Jake from Billy, who was
(11:47):
thought he might kill Jake at the end of the
series of aggregated murders, presumably to get rid of a witness.
In the state of Ohio, planning and executing a murder
is still murder even if you don't pull the trigger.
There's also evidence that George bought the truck used the
net of the murder. George Wagner's child has said for
(12:08):
August twenty ninth his father, Billy Wagner's child will be
later this year, and as often happens in murder trials,
George's defense team has followed a flurry of motions to
suppress evidence and expert testimony to stymy the prosecution's case,
Defendish Motion sixty five, which is entitled motion to compel
production of other acts evidence pursuant to Evidence Rule four
(12:31):
or four B, and then Defendis's Motion Number seventy seven.
Pre trial motions on both sides especially in a murder case,
are routine. The presiding judge holds initial hearings to see
whether certain evidence should be allowed in front of a jury,
and in this case, where the trial should even happen.
Today's May second, twenty twenty two. Unless you like hearing,
(12:52):
we'd have a hearing schedule along motions today. The defendant
was present in court for those attorney's jaw Patrick Parker
and Richard M. Nash. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff on
what we know about George Wagner the fourth defense team.
According to our research, it's actually not that common to
have more than one criminal defense lawyer. However, when you're
(13:15):
being charged with a crime as severe as George's, having
more than one lawyer actually might be pretty helpful in
the sense that they have different areas of focus, or
that they're able to work different hours and thus get
more work done. George Wagner's defense attorney is John Patrick Parker.
He's been practicing criminal defense in Ohio for thirty three
years and is based out of Cleveland. He also attended
(13:38):
Case Western Reserve Law School. The second attorney for George
Wagner is Richard Nash, and Richard is a local lawyer
based out of Portsmith. His areas of focus are criminal defense,
traffic offenses, as well as post conviction dealings. At forty
six years old, he was born in Oklahoma City and
(13:58):
attended Cleveland d University for law school and has been
practicing law since two thousand and four. In our research
of Richard Nash, we actually found out that a previous
client is also involved in this story. He represented none
other than Michael Moran when he was facing sex trafficking
charges back in twenty twenty. And remember Michael Moran represented
(14:22):
George's grandfather and Angela's father, petty criminal Pug Carter years ago.
This means that the lawyer who is currently defending George
used to defend the lawyer who defended Angela's dad. It's
a little complicated, but it speaks to how this community
is very much tied together. It's super interesting, by the way,
even just seeing all of the players come together because
(14:45):
they're steeped in history. We're going to take a break.
We'll be back in a moment. Under federal rules, the
presiding judge is termed quote, the gate keeper of what
evidence will be allowed. Here's thirty year Hamilton County, Ohio
(15:05):
Judge Patrick Dinklocker on the functions motion, Serf, you're cleaning
the slate so you can have a nice, clean trial
where you're getting rid of all those things that Wait
a minute, I don't like the color of the curtains
in this room. You file motion. You don't want to
bring that motion in the middle of the trial, because
it's like you're waiting halfway through the trial and there's
no sense enough. And in simplest forms, these are things
(15:28):
that need to be taken care of so that you
can have a fair, clean trial. In a drug possession case,
for example, the defense might ask the judge to exclude
drug paraphernalia that the defense argues was attained through the
legal search of the defendant's house. In a murder trial
such as this, a motion may seek to suppress key
witnessed testimony or ballistics findings. Often, motions highlight issues with
(15:52):
the case that become the basis for an appeal down
the line. One woman concerned for the defense was the
issue of venue. George the Force Child was originally slated
from March twentieth, twenty twenty, but in January, his attorney
issued emotion to change the trial venue to a different jurisdiction.
Judges is obviously one of the highest profile cases in
(16:13):
the history of this community. There were news conferences held
by the Attorney General, by the local sheriff, by different
members of law enforcement updating the community on the status
of the investigation. Went on for two and a half years,
and this is subject to great social media discussion in
the community. And it's our point of view that a
(16:35):
jury will not be able to be selected here. That's
fair to our client, given all of this publicity, given
all the notoriety of this case, we're asking the court
to change venue. In essence, the defense argued that the
murders were so widely followed locally that Poidier the process
of finding impartial jurors was impossible in Pike County. We
(16:56):
don't think the court can get a fair jury, even
though there are many people that probably would give it
their best effort. But we don't think if people are
being really honest with themselves and with the court, that
they're going to be able to say that they're able
to put aside everything they know about the case, whether
it's true or not true, and give George a fair trial.
(17:18):
Mike Allen is a criminal defense attorney in Cincinnati an
illegal analyst for Fox nineteen and Cincinnati. He makes a
crucial point about the essential fairness of most chairsts. It's
a motion for change of venue. Those motions are frequently
filed in high profile cases. They're frequently filed, but seldom granted. However,
(17:39):
in this case, though, because Pike County is such a
small county and I don't know how many registered voters
they have, they might have a problem seating a jury.
But here's the thing, and this is probably the most
important part of this, and I don't think a lot
of people realize it. If a potential juror who is
(18:01):
under oath answers a judge's question, can you divorce yourselves
and block out of your mind any pre trial publicity
that you have heard and render a verdict based upon
the evidence and the law. If that juror says, yes,
your honor, then that's a good juror. I mean, just
(18:21):
because someone has seen or heard or read a newspaper
article about it, that does not disqualify them, because if
it did, probably nine of the people in Pike County
would have seen or heard something about it retire Judge
Sylvia Hendon, who's been thirty three years in the benjam
(18:43):
Hamilton County, two hundred miles from Piketon, has a different
view of things. I think the change of venue in
this case is probably going to be the most hotly debated,
both before and after the trial. Again, Pike County is
a county of somewhere between twenty five and thirty thousand people.
It is going to be extremely difficult, in my opinion,
(19:06):
to find people in that county who don't know somebody
involved in the case and don't have an opinion on
what happened here. Again, my Allen, if it were not
a small county, I think it would be a no
brainer that the venue would not change. But because it
(19:27):
is such a small county with a small number of
registered voters, they might blow through all of them. But
there used to be a law, and I think it's
still there that if you run out of registered voters,
a judge can basically send his ballot or the cops
or anybody at his discretion to just literally pull him
(19:47):
off the street. The other thing you have to think about,
and I thought about while reading this thing with respect
to a change of venue. Okay, he grants a change
of venue, but to where? I mean, where in the
state of Ohio, in the Midwest, where could a judge
send it to where there was not all this pre
(20:10):
trial publicity. I mean, as you well know that this
is a case of immense public curiosity and people are
going to read about it and watch things on TV
and read the newspaper. It's just like, okay, we'll change
the venue, but where and to what end. In addition
(20:31):
to the venue challenge, An Flanagan says, a lot of
potential tours will simply not want to serve on this
controversial trial. We see jurs that don't want to be there.
They're just uncomfortable, and so what happens. Sometimes you'll see
one jur say I can't be fair, and you try
(20:51):
to quest someone why they can't be fair, and they
really don't have any reason. They're just saying they can't
be fair, right that this or that. Well, when two
jurs down the road, we'll come up at the same thing.
They learned how to get off of a journey. Judge
Patrick Dinklocker, famous for trying the first woman in Hamilton
County for the death penalty, lays out another potential scenario
(21:14):
of jury contamination. Okay, you said you saw the newspaper,
what did you actually read? Did you see it on
social media? Did you talk to your friends about it?
Did you text anybody about it? I think those are
all relevant questions and questions that the attorneys will ask
regarding you know, whether or not they're going to be
fair and impartial, because they can obviously say you, I'm
fair and impartial. But if the lead up to that
(21:36):
is they wrote on Facebook saying, Wow, this guy's guilty
as can be, you know, and they admit to something, well,
then the judge is in a different situation. They've got
this guy, hume. If you can't get twelve people that
can put upside all the social media all or whatever
the publicity they've seen and whatever, then you're right. Then
you change the venue. And that's something that both sides
(21:58):
will probably bring up. On May second, twenty twenty two,
Judge Randy Deering torpedo the defense's motion for a new venue,
ruling that George the fourth trial would remain in Pike County.
The ruling cleared a path for the trial that reporter
Anginette Leevey says will be a heated one. This is
(22:19):
a really old courthouse. I think it's from the Civil
War era, so the air conditioning is not great. So
jury selection starting on July fifth? Could you get any hotter?
I mean, could you kick any more uncomfortable time of
the year in Ohio where it gets so muggy and
gross and humid because of being in the Ohio River Valley.
(22:41):
Could you pick a worse time to do this? No
matter the weather, it's on Judge Randy Daring to oversee
this trial. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Here's what we know
about Judge Randy Deering. He went to undergrad and law
school at Ohio State and started practicing law in nineteen
seventy four. Judge Deering took office in two thousand and
(23:04):
five and was reelected in twenty ten and most recently
in twenty sixteen. Interestingly enough, in May of twenty fifteen,
Judge Deering swore in Charles Reader as the forty first
Pike County Sheriff, and Charles Reader is obviously very involved
in this story. We called the County Clerk's office, who
informed us that at seventy years old, Judge Deering is
(23:26):
now too old to officially serve as a judge, meaning
that he can't run again. His time as judge will
end in January or February of twenty twenty three. That
being said, because the Wagner cases will likely be ongoing
at that time, the Supreme Court could appoint him as
a retired judge over the case or cases so that
(23:46):
he could finish them out. The trial promises to be
a long one. There are some three hundred and fifty witnesses.
Imagine the problem that many witnesses would have created if
the venue were forced to move or to the fourth
attorney has press judged during to release and seal a
pre trial copy of transcripts of all witnesses who testified
(24:07):
before the grand jury in twenty eighteen. The prosecution of
counter that the Ohio State Supreme Court already ruled the
defense is not entitled to that information. The list of
witnesses is extensive, but Ann Flanagan points out that there
are four suspects and eight victims. In a tangled case
like this, with so many suspects witnesses at up, you
(24:31):
have eight individuals chilled, and I don't know how many
corners participated in the autopsies. I don't know if it
was all one or if it was a number, but
just right there, just think you have a multiplied factor
because all of those homicides are part of each one
of these defendant's cases. And then you have all of
(24:53):
the analysts. You have a blood witnesses, you get the
shoot print witnesses, you have custodians. Who's the custodian of
the Walmart shoe department, I mean, and the receipt how
did they get the bookkeeping records of the receipt and
the video authentication from Walmart? So theoretically you get you
have like three witnesses from Walmart just to say, yes,
(25:16):
this is the receipt, we keep it in the ordinary
course of business. And somebody who TEX does the same
thing for video, and somebody that handles the shoe department,
and you can say, yes, we keep athletic work shoes
or whatever. In a May hearing, as George, the fourth
defense team continued to hurl motions at the bench, George
Wagner bearded and Balding began to look defeated. It's worth
(25:39):
noting that the defendants do not appear in court and shackles.
This is done so they can avoid the appearance of guilt.
Billy and George, you know, all of them. Actually, anytime
they've appeared in court, Pike County bought a stun best.
It's like this thing that they wear under their clothes
so that if they get out a line or try
to escape, or they grab a pen and try to
stab somebody or whatever. Literally, the deputies can push a
(26:03):
button and I think eighty thousand bolts into their bodies.
We have to remember that all this legal wrangling is
particularly intense because George Wagner is facing the death penalty.
As a reminder, Jake Wagner's pleadal takes the death sentence
off the table for him and his family members, but
(26:26):
only if he testifies to the satisfaction of the prosecution.
The jury must carefully consider the possibility that just because
George is Jake's brother and Angela and Billy's son, it
does not necessarily mean he pulled the trigger that night
in April twenty sixteen, and if he didn't actually shoot anyone,
(26:48):
should he face legal injection. Here's George Wagner's defense team.
What is really important here is that the court talks
about a basic premise of our criminal justice system is
as follows. Our law punishes people for what they do
and not who they are. And why is it important
in this case. The reason it's important in this case
(27:11):
is that the court is aware the state is arguing
that George is part of a conspiracy and a criminal
enterprise and participate in the aggravated murders and the other
twenty two counts. And a large part of the state's argument,
we anticipate, is he's a Wagner and this is how
the Wagners operate. Now, there certainly is a conspiracy charge,
(27:33):
we understand that, and there's specific law with respect to conspiracy,
but it doesn't necessarily apply to everything. So we think
it's important that the court keep this basic premise of
our justice system in mind and at the appropriate time
and struct the jury concerning that. And the event of
a guilty verdict for George Wagner, there's the possibility that
(27:53):
the death penalty will still be on the table. Here's
a plan again, and Judge Klocker to breakdown on what
happens next. And I gotta be careful with what I say,
because you're supposed to treat the guy who breaks a
window and goes into drug store the same as you
do a des penalty person. But the practicality of it
is that you know you're dealing with the most serious
(28:17):
of cases. You know you have to do everything you
can to try to get it right because there's a
life on the line, and at least for some of us,
life is very very, very very important. At this point,
we would say there would be two phases, and so
the first phase is the liability or trying to determine
(28:40):
did the state in fact prove that he was a
complicitor in these homicides as to George the fourth And
then the second phase would be a weighing process for
the jury. It's called a mitigation hearing. It is unique
and that this is the one time where you have
jurors essentially participate in the decisions. Typically, for all other crimes,
(29:03):
the judge will make the decision on sentencing within the
guidelines of our legislature. However, in the capital case, the
jury will be part of a weighing process. They are
still not sentencing, but they are going to give a
recommendation to the judge, should he have an opportunity at parole,
should he have the highest number of years before that
(29:25):
opportunity at parole comes up. Should he have no chance
at parole just a life sentence, or should be in
fact be exposed to execution the definitely. Ultimately, the jury
can be swapped for a three judge panel, the defending
can elect to have a three judge panel. Then the
three judge panel tries the case. Okay, they render a
(29:48):
verdict this whether or not the person is guilty or not,
and then they sentence okay, which you know can be
the death penalty, can be life without parole, life after
twenty or thirty or whatever. The judges can do that,
but most times the jury trial, So the trial is
conducted in front of the jury because obviously you don't
get to the death penalty phase until you make a
determination that the guy's guilty of what he's charged with.
(30:10):
And for example, I mean he's charged with aggravated murder
with what they call death specs. There are further hearings
to be had before the defendant's fade is sealed. Eventually
the case may head to the highest court in the
state of Ohio. But if the jury does go ahead
and signs off and makes the recommendation that they believe
the death penalty is appropriate. Then it goes to the
judge to make a decision. The judge has another hearing
(30:33):
with the defendant participating, counsel participating. You know, a lot
of different things go into it. Then the judge makes
a decision. If the judge says the death penalty is
warranted in the case, then the judge signs off on that.
The next step then is to go to the Ohio
Supreme Court, and then the Ohio Supreme Court reviews the
whole record, reviews everything they can review about the case.
(30:55):
Whatever defense counsel brings up is something that they believe
should be a reason to throw out the death penalty,
or throughout the conviction, or throughout the whole case. At
every phase, the onus is always on the honorable person
on the bench to rule as fairly as possible. I
think you truly, truly, truly have to want to be
fair and treat everybody fairly. You truly have to seek justice.
(31:20):
Everybody's got a different definition of justice. I understand that.
But for me, you want to be able to walk
off that bench and say to yourself, I did the
best I could. I try to be fair to everybody.
When I think about a really good judge, I think
about somebody who is willing to put in the time
(31:41):
to read everything there is to read, maybe most importantly,
to listen to everything that's being presented. And I think
probably paramount is to keep an open mind until the
end of the case. Now that's a hard thing to
do because everybody brings to the bench their own personal experiences.
(32:04):
But it is just critically important that you don't come
in there with your mind made up. You do a
disservice to your oath if you do that. But an
excellent judge needs a jury capable of looking at the
case squarely. I think it's real important. And I've told
over the years a number of attorneys that we're not
here trying to get twelve people that are going to
(32:24):
go for you, And we're not here for the other
side of getting twelve people. You guys are supposed to
be working to get a fair and impartial jury. That's
your job. Now, that's easy for me to say. For
the prosecution, for example, all it takes is one person.
They've got one person that you know is well. I
really don't like the death penalty. I don't think it's
(32:45):
a good thing. I really don't want to do it.
I mean that sounds like kind of a weak juror
for the prosecution. I think you'd agree. Okay, so they
maybe have to use a peremptory to get rid of
that person. Let's stop here for another break. As Judge
(33:08):
Hendon points out, the whole legal procedure, while carefully architected
to bring justice and closure to families, can do nothing
to restore what's been lost. If there is a tragedy
greater than the tragedy that unfolded in this case, it
has to be the fact that this child is now
without a mother and a father in a set of
(33:32):
circumstances that someday she'll be old enough to understand it's
tragic beyond description. Reflecting on her time as prosecutor, and
Flannagan comments on the distinct feeling of loss in the courtroom,
that's one of the things I don't miss. And I
didn't know how much I didn't miss until I started
(33:53):
reviewing all of this, and I thought, oh my gosh,
it just springs back so much and how hard the
attorneys for both sides are to bring fair justice to
their sides. But because they're good advocates and they do care.
I think it's just a tremendously intense experience and one
can only imagine how it comes across to the families
(34:16):
who are sitting there on the personal side of appearing
about the loss of someone and not really interested in
the technology behind shoeprints, who are blood spatter or this
or that. They just start feeling that someone they loved
just gone. More on that next time. If you're enjoying
The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our other hit series,
(34:38):
Crazy and Love. New episodes there every Tuesday. Wherever you
get your podcasts. For more information and case photos, follow
us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and
Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydeger, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves,
Alan Wader, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed
(35:01):
by Jeff Tis. Music by Jared Aston. The Piked and
Massacre is a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Hosts And Creators
Stephanie Lydecker
Courtney Armstrong
Jeff Shane
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com