September 16, 2021 • 44 mins
Gary chats with 2-time Masters Champion Ben Crenshaw. The two discuss the art of putting, the nuances of course design now and in the future, hitting the ball for distance, and of course Gary and Ben discuss The Masters.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
It's very interesting Bed they talk about great pudders and
brand as you know did that story. Yeah, almost impossible
to put the ten best pudders down because you forget
people forget about Jerry Barber. I'll never forget winning the
PGA against Don January in Chicago at something Feels. What
(00:28):
does the name of that golf course something Olympia Fields,
Olympia Field, he must he hold, There's never ever been
an exhibition of pudding like that other than you at
the Master's when I had my friend Dave King caddy
for me, I said, I'm so pleased you're cadding for
me because today you'll see for yourself what this man
crench or does. And I'll never forget on the fourth
(00:50):
hole on the fifth hold, I mean they're the flag
the front right on that big no. And you were
sure of the grid. And he said, well, now he
will never get out of two older. He was convinced. No, Gary,
I I remember reading about what what Jerry Barber did
to Don January. It was some like the last three
(01:13):
putts were all over thirty ft, but you know he
putted his method was I've never seen a method like that.
He putted really close to his feet, very upright, and
he had an old Natzi putter, kind of a blade
looking thing, but god, that guy putt he It was
(01:36):
very interesting. I saw him later on in his career.
He played a couple of tournaments and he was out
on the putting green and he was putting right across
the green sixties seventy ft and we said, what are
you doing? He said, well, I feel like if I
can gauge the speed of these long putts and then
go knock the short puts. And I said, I've got
(01:56):
a field for these greens this particular week. It was
very interesting. You know, it is Ben and he had
a he welded something on the thing that was the
work most wicked looking putty you've ever seen. And yet
find people say, well, you know, they forget that you've
got to have a good eye and that you've got
to have a good touch. And I mean you look
(02:17):
at Bobby Locke. He aimed everything three ft right as
a whole, even the left or right breaking hole, took
the put away inside and then didn't follow through an inch.
But he Casper never followed through our apartment, never followed through.
Doug Ford ever followed through they gave it a good rap,
a good acceleration, hitting down on the ball, and then
you get guys cross handed the claw. But these were
(02:39):
all things that were done a hundred years ago. This
wasn't discovered as of today. And that's why I must
just tell the folks how much I enjoy you being
the host at Augusta because you always give us such
lovely stories. And that's what always transpired at the Master's Dinner,
which is one of the greatest evenings that you will
(02:59):
ever experience. Into all those champions there, particularly when Bobby
Jones was there, and Clifford Roberts, and you know that
we also met President Eisenhower there. But you bring back
these great stories. And you know, Jack Nichol has always
told me what a great golfer Bobby Jones was, and
I was very naive. I didn't quite appreciate that. And
(03:20):
now as I get older, I realized he was a
phenomenal golfer. And I love the story. You always tell it.
Tell me when you see me, you imitate him, and
I'll never forget you. Said Bobby Jones said, it is
absolutely impossible, in fact inadequate to hit a bad shot
and still have the club in your hands. I tell
(03:45):
you that he was such an intellect, and he wrote
so well. As a matter of fact, Gary, when I
was preparing for this discussion, I have I have a
quote from him that I think apply to our putting
little treatise here, and I kept it for you, and
(04:06):
it says, anyone who hopes to reduce putting, or any
other department of the game of golf for that matter,
to an exact science, is in for serious disappointment, and
will only suffer from the attempt. It is wholly a
matter of touch, the ability to gauge a slope accurately,
(04:29):
and most important of all, the ability to concentrate on
the problem at hand, and that of getting the ball
into the hole, and nothing more. I mean he could write,
he could write for all of us, really, and not
describe what you and I were thinking in the most
(04:49):
important aspects of our career. I mean those putts that
you you made, uh, you know it lit them. Uh.
That was my first Open championship and you won that week.
That was the big ball, the American ball, and you
you won that tournament. And you know, I know that
(05:13):
you hold your old putts at critical times, but you
know another when you won that that masters that when
you made the incoming rush on the back night and
you hold some putts that were just incredible. And uh
you did mention too that Uh our big fellow who
(05:35):
won the US Open, who's John Rob Those two putts
were some of the prettiest putts I ever saw, both
big left to right breaking putts. They had to have
the perfect speed on them. They were two beautiful putts.
And uh, you know, putting it has always been an
art to me. And I never saw Bobby lock putt,
(05:58):
but I saw him in film. But uh, you know
that man had such a touch and an ability to
read slopes, and no one would ever teach that method. Uh.
You and I have seen so many different methods work,
and I think that's what's fascinating about putting. Uh there's
(06:21):
no right or wrong way to go about it. And
you know you you mentioned Brad Faxson and Brad Faxson
is one of the prettiest putters I ever saw. He
just gets up and hits it. No practice stroke, He
he sizes it up and makes that beautiful stroke. Great touch.
He's just got beautiful touch in his in his hands
and fingers. But um, uh, it's a part of the game.
(06:45):
It's mystifying to some, but we do know Gary that
you in order to win a tournament, and win big tournaments,
the putts have to go down. That's the only way
that you're gonna reduces your scores. H But in tight
situations it's a tough thing to do. But you have
(07:06):
to have belief in yourself. Right, that's right. And then
the thing is, there's so much I think hogwash spoken
about long hitting. Now that's all you hear is about
long hitting. And even though the guy like Deschambro, I
think he has a very nice but he gets a
bit slashy oft times, as Tiger did. And it's unnecessary
(07:27):
because if you hit it hard and you slash it,
there's only a difference about ten yards, which is not
really any significance. But if you look at the way
they putted every time, you wouldn't have torment. I say,
what wins a golf Torment is keeping the ball in play,
having a very good mind. I can't explain of mind
as you know that to be able to put extremely well,
(07:48):
because it makes you feel like Tarzan instead of Mickey
Mouse three putting it. And what I've just really irritates me,
and I suppose it shouldn't. I don't think it should
be allowed odd that you should be allowed to have
a book on helping you read a dream. The greatest
putters that ever lived, none of them ever had a book.
And there's nobody putting today that could put better than
(08:11):
those guys. In fact, I don't believe the best pudders
today can put as well as the better put as
of yesterday, because they play on greens and are twice
as good as what we played on. And you never
saw anybody bringing a book out. Where is the game
to that you've got to have a book to tell
you the slope. If you can't read a pot, surely
(08:31):
reading a put is part of the game. Yeah, I
totally agree. I you know, I don't play any tournaments anymore,
but I have heard Gary that lately the chorus is
getting louder about getting rid of the books. And one
of the one of the players that I really respect
a lot, and Rory McIlroy, I think that he is uh.
(08:56):
I think he's a he's a member of the policy board,
I guess on both sides of the Atlantic, but I
think he I think that he If I'm not incorrect,
I think that he's in favor of getting ready to
grind of the books. Um it is. It's no, no question,
simply a part of the game to read, to read
(09:17):
a green, that's part of golf. I just think of
all the time that it would save as well as
as uh as. Golfers now, especially professionals, are scrutinized about
the time that it takes them to play. So I
(09:37):
don't know, I I I I'm old enough to know
that I can't believe a lot of the things that
I see these days. The distances are just mind boggling.
I never thought that people would be hitting the ball
(09:58):
as far as they do. Uh uh. You know, it's
interesting about Bryson de Shambo. Ah. Yes, people are enamored
with his long hitting, but people forget how well he
putted those greens at wingfoot exactly. You and I know
that those greens are difficult to part. There's some undulations
(10:20):
there that you really have to work out. He put
it unbelievable that way, lucky, but that's a you have to.
The putts have to go down, there's no question about that.
That's right. And reading the greens is such an important
part because if you don't, if you don't pick the
right line, you're not gonna hold him. And you've only
(10:43):
got to look today. I think the best putter on
the tour today is Jordan's speed. I mean his His
long game is a lot to be improved on. He
misses a lot of fairways and greens that I really
admire him because he gets in there and he can
He can play poorly and still score, and that to
(11:05):
me is a big thing. He's really got that little
thing called it. He's a great competitor. He's a wonderful
young man. He's a good family man, a good all
American guy. Pull for him. If he could get his
swing right, my goodness, may be careful. He will be
number one on the tour. There's no question about it.
But you know the thing is that it's very interesting.
(11:27):
I spoke to Brandon Grace in South Africa last September
when I was in South Africa, and he said to me,
you know, when you and Arnold and Jack and the
guys won the tourments, there are only about thirty players
that you had to beat, whereas we got to beat
eighty ninety players. Now I said, yes, you do have
to beat eighty or ninety players now. Then I came
back during COVID. I was in Philadelphia and I went
(11:50):
through on our tour, and we had fifty nine major
champions that played the tour when we played, fifty nine
nine major champions champions playing the tour right now. So
you've always got to be very careful what you say
about I don't see anybody hitting the boat. I've been
Hogan today. This is a long time ago. I mean
(12:14):
Sam Sneed and Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson and Jimmy
de Merritt, Lloyd Mangram. You can go down the line.
Those guys could really play. And when you think about it,
we're in our infancy right now. Ben, I mean, you're
getting guys coming out We've never there's never been even today,
no really big men playing golf. You know, the physique,
(12:35):
you know, I suppose Gary that the the RNA and
the U. S. G A are are obviously being scrutinized
about the distance of the ball is going with club
heads and implements and the ball and this and that.
But you really can't take away people's physical abilities. That's
(12:56):
that's that's something that that you know, no one ever
thought of. I know that you were a proponent of
really keeping a strong body, and you always have and
there was there was there was one guy, Frank Stranahan.
I guess way back who who's one of the first
I guess, But no, you can't discount that. The sad
(13:22):
part is Gary that you know, you and I build
golf courses and you I sort of cringe when you know,
you to offer up a championship test, you know, when
people are saying, well this, of course, there's got to
be seventy seventy six hundred yards. And it's very difficult
to make a golf course be a lasting enough that
(13:46):
that everybody could enjoy the game. It's very difficult to
put those things together. But we're sort of at that
threshold now. I I'm always of the opinion that of
for a golf course that yes has the framework of
of trying to reach everyone, and it is difficult to do.
(14:09):
But in a nutshell, if you have a golf course
that has a couple of part fives, a couple of
strong par fours on either side, a couple of short
par fours on either side that are great and testing
and you have four part three's that are of different lengths.
You've reached a lot of people and to where those
(14:32):
golf courses nestle against the countryside and look natural. That's
that's what we that's our aim and objective. And you
and I have studied the world's best courses and it's
fascinating to me that they're sort of a kinship and
all of them, that they're naturally placed. They offer a test. Uh. Yes,
(14:56):
they're difficult in spots, but they're not completely overbear. I
don't think anyone enjoys a slug fest every hole. Uh. Interest,
well Jones said it interest supersed link every time. It's
(15:16):
a kind of a an alarming quote. But you know,
when you think about it, you want to hold people's
interests as much as you can. And uh, some of
the world's greatest holes, Ah well, let's started by the
number twelve that Augusta. I think that holds people attentions
(15:37):
pretty well, confounds everyone. Uh, but are you thinking of
some of the great short part forwards in the world
that are just fascinating to watch? The tenth hole at
Riviera in Los Angeles, and uh, uh, they're they're they're,
they're just wonderfully done. They're fascinating they But Ben, the
(16:01):
thing is that we've got to be very careful of
one of the things that my brother was the world's
leading conservationist, and fifty years ago he said to me,
water is going to be the big problem in your
children's lifetimes. And were finding that out right now when
you see the drafts that are taking place all over
the world and the big lakes that we automatically got
(16:23):
water from Lake Mead I e down to. We cannot
afford to have golf courses that are, you know, eight
thousand yards long, because we don't have the water unless
we use In fact, I think in time to come, Ben,
we will not be able to use portable water for
golf courses. Will have to use the the you know,
(16:45):
the sewerage water that's been refined. We will not be
allowed to use that fresh water because and the other
thing is the fertilizer. Fertilization continuously. I know on my
crops on my farm, if I kept using fertilizer, the
soil det aiorated. So and then the other thing is
the expense. How much it costs to buy the machinery.
(17:06):
It costs a living fortune. So I think to me,
my advice to everybody who talks to us about a
golf course, I say, look, the odds of having a
tournament on your golf course are remote. Let's build a
golf course for the future where your your people are
going to enjoy it as members. You'll have good youth programmed,
you'll have a great camaraderie that exists, a good practice
(17:29):
tea facilities. But forget about a tournament golf course because
it just upsets the members anyway, They're not going to
enjoy it. And the expense, Wow, the expense is enormous. Ben,
you know what it costs just to put sand in
bunkers been, Oh, it is. And I'd like to to
echo your thoughts about conservation too, because if you really
(17:53):
consider what kind of research is done now with the
turf grass universities and the U. S g A with
their Green Section, you have to really scrutinize what varieties
and species you're gonna put on on that golf course.
And some of the grasses now are just fantastic. Uh.
(18:13):
Some of the zoises that we've worked with are just
wonderfully adapted to heat. And you don't have to water
them that much. You don't have to fertilize them that much. Uh.
We're the golf industry is constantly looking for species of
grass that that will thrive in these conditions. But you're
right at the cost of upkeep for a golf course
(18:37):
is enormous. That costs everyone, costs everyone, the members of
your club. Uh. You dues are are expensive. But you
have to consider these things. Uh. One thing is is unbelievable, though, Gary,
when you start thinking about golf as a worldwide recreation
(19:00):
is people are playing golf. It's amazing how popular it is.
You know, of course we've had this rotten pandemic, but
it is rekindled a lot of people's romance with the game.
Every club around North America is full and a lot
of people are coming to the game for the first time. Ah.
(19:23):
I know that where you are in the UK, people
would like to get out more and recreate. Ah. But
if you consider golfs ability to thrive, and you know,
our game, Gary has been around over five dred years.
It's amazing that the thought of it hasn't changed that much.
(19:50):
The aim and the objective of the game. Uh. And
it's amazing when you talk to people who take up
the game what it means to them, and they the one, well,
that's the game for a lifetime. Well it is, and
it's something to learn every day. Uh. But you know, Gary,
going back to the Masters and the Champions dinner, it's
(20:15):
such an honor to stand up there and and talk
to you guys. I never dreamed that Byrone Nelson would
call me on the phone. He said, Been, I want
you to take over for the dinner. I went, wow. Uh,
it's an honor. Uh. And it's when you wouldn't look
out at all of your champions. We have a kinship
(20:37):
because we've been through it and we're proud that we've
got through it to do something like that, um common
thread of all of us. But the chance for us
to be together and relive old stories. Uh. And just
(20:57):
a number of people, number of professionals who'd like to
be in that room. We're very very lucky. Yes, absolutely, absolutely, no.
Being it's a it's a game. When you think about it,
you can play forever. That can help a young man.
He should choose his sport very wisely because it comes
(21:19):
a day when he cannot play anymore, and golf and
can help him in his business enormously, and if you're
not a champion golf or whatsoever, it's the most difficult
game ever invented. I mean, my wife and I have
great debates. My favorite sport to watch on television is tennis. Now,
I tell her, I said, you know, when you win Wimbledon,
(21:42):
you've got to beat property six or seven guys. I said,
when we win the British Open or the US Open,
or whatever it may be, we've got a hundred and
fifty six guys teeing off in the tournament. And every
day we're playing against a lot of guys, and you
might get an early morning time and the wooden blows.
(22:03):
I said, when you played tennis, it's the same conditions
for you as against that other man. We play against
rain and wind and sunshine in the afternoon and completely
different conditions. The greens are not as good in the afternoon,
the bunkers are not as good. Nothing is as good,
So you know to win. To me, we have the debate.
And nobody had admis an athlete more than Djokovic than
(22:26):
I do. To see the way he's exercise and the
way he eats and his mindset. I'm such a fan
of his. And we saw what bul Micholson did that
the PJ this year. He lost X amount of pounds.
He looked young, he was focused. There was a great
encouragement for young people to to avoid obesity, which is
(22:48):
the biggest killer of mankind. So it was very The
golf can set such a great example to so many
people watching and learning about it, and the more they learned,
the more intrigued they are with the game. I think
it is Djokovic was an athlete. You know his range e,
(23:09):
he's his capacity, he stays healthy. In the next few years,
he's gonna set so many, so many records. It's incredible
what he's achieved now he's he's a lethal uh competitor. Uh.
And and really, and if you consider what Phil Nicholson
did that that is one of the great achievements of
(23:30):
of of of our sport. He you know, he looked
like he was in a trance the last two days. Focus,
his focus was on believing his brother on the bag
really helped him. But god, he was calm. And uh,
you know one thing too, I noted Gary that he
(23:54):
inserted a club in his bag. I think that really
helped him win. Was that was that too, would Brassy? Yes,
we kept the ball in play off the tea. Yes,
because a guy like that can score so well, he
just needs to keep it in play. What a victory
that was. Oh, it was really remarkable. And Ben, you know,
(24:15):
I remember fifty years ago saying one day because Raymond
Floyd came very close to winning at fifty, and I said,
one day there will be a man of fifty winning
a major. Now, and I've been known as a bit
of a cook with my predictions, I said, weight training
will become part of the game. Uh, they will, said
you mad, Even Ardole and Jason don't talk nonsense about
(24:35):
using weights. And then I said, somebody will win a
major at fifty. Now I'm going to say another cook thing,
somebody will win a major at sixty one day. Because
we're now going into a new mindset eating properly. No athletes,
student professional golfers are not good eaters. But any I mean,
you put any food in front of the man, they
eat it. So I mean, but now there's a new
(24:57):
trend of watching their diet game to the game, to
the gym, getting psychiatrists. I mean, it's a it's a
completely different game. I played with Taysom Hill, the guy
who plays a football for the Saints. Let me tell
you something. He's squatting with five hundred pounds. Oh my god,
he hit when I hit a drive and a three
(25:20):
iron and he had a drive in a sandwidge and
that's not mad, but I still waxed him anyway. But
the thing is that these guys, they're going to be
hitting the ball close to five hundred yards. I'm telling
you right now, we as they say in the classics,
we ain't seen nothing yet. And so the U s
g A and the RNA and all the leaders the
(25:43):
p g A have got to slow the ball down. Ben.
If they don't slow the ball down, it's going to
be a fass. They'll stand on the first here in
Augusta and this will happen again, and they'll drive the green.
I mean, even right now, Bryson on a reasonably hot
firmed he can get within ten yards of it. So
(26:04):
is going to be a short hitter in time to come.
Never dreamed that we'd see the things that we're seeing.
Just amazing. And like you say, more than half of
the players on tour now can carry the ball three
hundred yards it's it's amazing and hit they hit a
(26:25):
seven nine yards. It's just amazing to me. You know
the way I played Gary, I'll hit one out there
and I'll go, yeah, wait, I thought I hit that
ball better than that. But let me give you some
food for thought. Jack Nicholas and Dallas in the long
driving competition were that old ball in those old clubs
(26:48):
he hit. He won it with three hundred and forty
one yards. People forget that, and he still got the
money clip to prove it because he doesn't keep any
money in at you if you pay well. But the
fact he still did that, now, can you imagine having
given Jack uh the drivers, the lightweight shafts, and the
(27:11):
middle head and the ball. I mean, guys, tell you
about a ball today. This ball doesn't suit me. You
know that's a foreign language. Just give me that little
white bull man. Let me go play, you know what
I mean. So I remember I remember by Byron Nelson
telling me he said, somebody asked him what were the
(27:31):
golf balls like in your day? And he said, well,
he said, I ever got a if I ever got
a good one, I'd play a few holes with him.
I said, God, they were. But Uh, golf is so
scientific now, I'm amazed how scrutinized. And you're right. I mean,
(27:53):
if you think about the equipment that they play with,
the golf ball and the components of the heads, and
you just think of agronomy, like you mentioned earlier, the
greens are beautiful. The greens are so good. No, no
wonder that scores go down, because you know, if you
see a beautiful green out there, you say, well, I
(28:16):
shouldn't make these butts, and I do make them. But
if you start thinking about what the agronomy was thirty
forty years ago, and that that was attributable to a
lot of different things. Uh, scoring had had a lot
to do with how the courses were. But man, it's
(28:38):
the golf courses are beautifully presented now, let's say. And uh,
no no question about the records and uh but you
know it's still it's you know, and the old it
still takes two to get there. You hit the ball,
you in it twice and those other two shots constitute
(29:02):
either a two pot or get the ball up and down.
That it never never changes. Every my contention is every
tournament that you watch, I don't care what it is
around the Globe, the top ten finishers will have chipped
and putted well. Absolutely. You know, it never fails. You know,
(29:27):
when you're not hitting the ball at well, you hit
it off the green. You gotta get that ball up
and down, and it's a way, it's it's it never changes.
I think the top ten scores will have chipped and
putted well. In other words, they get the ball in
the whole fast. Yeah, I mean, oh, I know that.
And what's in the US Open? Ram had a four
(29:47):
iron to the lost total of five. He didn't put
the fall on the green. He still made biddy. He
hold that magnificent put and it's seventeen. He hold one,
and then you see ust Hazen right behind him. He
bog is the easiest hole on the course, one of
the easiest on seven team and losers. I mean, you know,
(30:09):
people must understand it's the putting in the end that
makes all the difference. My goodness me that putting that
in that well, I'll tell you what in in in
mentioning Louis and Charles Schwartz or Schwartzel, I maintained that
they've got to the prettiest swings that I've ever seen
(30:29):
they're just beautiful. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, there's no question.
There's not a better swing on the tour than Louis.
I mean, I think people like Rory McElroy and Adam
Scott great swings, but Louis is just unbelievable the way
he swings that club. He he, I don't know why
(30:52):
he's not winning. He's not winning and he's so close.
Now he's got to sit down and say, well, there's
a reason, and uh, you know, that's something he's got
to take into consideration. He's a wonderful young man. In fact,
South Africans have done extremely well for a small country.
To win twenty three majors, more in any country in
the world other than the US post war is quite remarkable.
(31:16):
And we've got a lot of wonderful young guys coming
along right now. That's right. And I've always admired Ratief
Goosen too. He continues to play beautiful golf. He's beautiful
to watch. Uh. I just I maintained too that you know,
if you you know the game, and you've grown up
(31:39):
in Australia and South Africa, you know how to play
the game. You've played in all sorts and conditions. Something
just popped into my head. When you know this list
of courses which you and I will probably agree on
(32:01):
a lot, at the top ten courses that you've ever seen.
I always have this wonderful there was a photo of
you Gary winning the Australian Open at Kingston Heath and
you had a handkerchief. You had a handkerchief on your
face and we had allergies or something, but you won
(32:23):
on that golf course. I contend that Kingston Heath one
of the world's greatest courses. That you could have everybody
out there playing. It doesn't matter how far you hit it,
you still have to were going to be tested. That's
a great golf course. It's I think that the Australians.
Those courses have some of the prettiest bunkers in the world,
(32:45):
beautifully natural, rugged looking buckers. God, they're beautiful. Royal Melbourne
has always been one of my favorites too. I love
those golf courses because you have to play all kinds
of shots and the sand Belt in Melbourne in Victoria
is definitely the best group of golf courses together. They've
(33:08):
got something like seventeen and one of the great victories
of my life. We were playing in the Canada Cup,
the World Cup and now in France and Arnold, Jack
and I were going to go to play Royal Melbourne
Australian Open. And we have a fogged out in France
and travel agent said, look, I can get you there
(33:28):
three hours before you play Arnold and Jack Withdrew. I
went arrived there three and a half hours before. I
don't know what. We went from France to New York
to l A to to Away, to Fiji, to Sydney
to Melbourne and I've never I've never seen I've never
seen Royal Melbourne in my life and given my a
(33:49):
new set of clubs and I won't Australian Opened by
seven shots always in Royal Melbourne's my favorite. It is
a majestic place that is unbelievable. They were slashinger two,
weren't they right? And what I like? They come on
(34:12):
to you when you first get over. Then they said, well, Gary,
here your three balls for the week and then you'd
have a ring. You'd have a ring to see if
all the ball would go through the ring, and one
ball we would go through the ring. The ring to
realize you were playing with ball and it wasn't round.
(34:34):
Oh I have things have changed. I guess we can
get now. I guess Gary will get up in one
of Richard Branson's rockets and you go over there. You
you go from you go from the UK where you
are Australian an hour or something. I guess I don't yeah, yeah,
but if they build a course, if they built a
course up there, very high up, you and I'll do
(34:56):
together and make sure we could reach all the fas.
But I just I would be remodered me not to
ask you about because I thought one of the most touching,
if not the most touching victory Augusta was with you
one uh and your great mentor Harvey Pinnic, who I
(35:16):
never I don't know if I have admit him, but
I just always admired that man with his little book
that he had, and the way he taught you and
Tom Kite and taught you both to be great gentlemen
and competitors. And then you actually did something, if I'm
not incorrect, which it's good to remind people. Didn't you
fly back during Augusta? Yes, yes, Tom Kite and I
(35:41):
flew back on Tuesday. We buried buried Harvey on Tuesday,
and I came back to the Masters on Wednesday and
one on the on the tournament. Believable. It may have
been the most selfless kind men I've ever met in
(36:03):
my life. He loved the game. It was a great teacher,
very humble god, you know. He taught Cathy Whitworth and
uh Nicky Right and uh Betsy Rawls and the women
professionals loved him. He was very, very kind, but he
was a great thing. Everybody knew him in the Southwest.
(36:24):
But he just preached, well, he didn't preach, but he
when we were little bitty kids, he said, look here,
here's what I need for you to do. I want
you to take this seven iron, go off the edge
of the green. I don't you chip that ball up
there and go knock it in the hole. One ball,
(36:44):
and then you're playing golf. He wants wanted to learn
the value of the little short shots of the pudding.
And it stayed with me the rest of my life.
I loved chipping and practicing the short game. And we
had putting matches. We'd all play and end up on
the punning green with punning matches, and it was just
(37:05):
they were fun. I enjoyed punny and competing. He wanted
us to compete as well. Uh. But he's very much
a fundamentalist that he really preached a good grip. He
always wanted to see people have the proper grip. Uh.
But the kindest man, selfless, selfless, and to have to
(37:30):
have one on that occasion for his memories. As always,
it will always be my finest achievement. But I told
many people so many times, I said, look, I had
a fifteen club in my bag and it was Harvey.
But also also no doubt in my mind that the
man upstairs put his hand on me and said, look,
(37:52):
we're gonna honor this gentleman, and I'm gonna see you through.
There's no there's no doubt in my mind, Gary, no doubt,
no doubt, no doubt. That's to me. Of all the
torments I've seen, it was the most touching because there's
no question that the Lord played his part in there.
And the same there was karma with John rom Winning.
I was very happy to see him when I'd like
(38:14):
to have seen him. It wasn't great, but I mean, yes, yeah,
Jack Nicholas said to me, Gary, You've got no idea
what a great round. He's sixty four. Was he says,
you have no idea, and then to be told that
you are, You're on your way, but he and then
to come back the next week and win. Now he'll
you know at the time, You know, adversity is that
(38:36):
it turns into joy. We've got to realize we always
all have adversity in our lives. You cannot escape it.
But it turns into joy if you persevere. And roma
was richly the rewarded. It was a magnificent victory. And god,
can that guy play. Wow, he is magnificent, so strong
(39:00):
his back swing, his back swing is a little bit
short for a young man. I'd like to see him
do some exercises to increase the length of his back swing.
You know. Funny enough, I've never seen in the history
of golf a superstar. Now, what is a superstar? A
(39:20):
superstar in my opinion, as a person who wins six
majors and more. You've got to sit the bar for superstar.
There's a vast difference between superstar and a star. But anyway,
I've never seen a superstar other than Trevino. But even
when he was young, who had a full back swing.
I never saw anybody with a short back swing ever
become a superstar. It's never happened in golf. It's very
(39:43):
very interesting, you know. And there's no question too, if
you consider people's achievements over a long time, over in decades,
you always go with a guy with a longer backswing
last longer. Yes, it's said for that. Yes, well, there
are always the exceptions to the rule, and if the
(40:05):
freaks have come out and do things that other people
haven't done. But if I was John Rame, I'd be
working on I'd been doing something. It's a type of
exercise to really increase my turn on the back swing,
because over the years it's going to stand him in
good stead. But then somebody turns around and says, well,
by that time, you'll left two hundred million or three
hundred million in the bank. I said, but that's not
(40:26):
what we all play for. We all played to what
I wouldn't. I mean, if I said you you could
have taken your two Masters victories and given the prize
money away, oh my goodness, and not have it. You'd
rather have the Masters and the prize money. I know
you kept the prize money. But if somebody, if you
(40:47):
came up the last hole and somebody said, Ben, take
a double bogey here and I'll give you a hundred million.
You wouldn't have taken it, because then the Masters means
so much. The money is negligible. Exact is negligible. I
mean to think that we have lifetime memories and we've
achieved something that people haven't is something in this game.
(41:10):
But wow, it's a it's a sufficient reward to one
there at Augusta. I know that you've won all over
the world, all of majors. You want more tournaments in anybody? Uh,
But you know, and I must say too, it's to me.
Sometimes I listen to the arguments about which major means
(41:34):
more to certain people. I can't. I can't take a
part that argument that you know, I haven't won the
other ones. I've been lucky to have won the Master's, Yes,
but I to choose one over the other. It is
pretty difficult when you start thinking about how many times
that you and I both played against the competition in
(41:57):
really important tournaments around the world have come up on top.
Who's to say that one is not more important. Major
tournaments are major tournaments, wow, and they're their special achievements
and they should be viewed as such. Uh, you know,
different different facets of major tournaments appealed to certain people
(42:21):
and their tastes and this and that. But uh, wow,
I've been lucky enough to to one a couple of
important tournaments. But wow, it's made my It's made my
life and made me study different things about golf too
that give me so much fulfillment and enjoy it's uh,
(42:48):
different parts of the game and studying golf courses, to
me is still my greatest hobby. And I've got the
greatest partner in the world and Bill Coore, who's just
the nice his person, and he's very imaginative. And we've
been very lucky to build a few good courses and
will continue. But certainly and to go around and meet
(43:11):
people who love the game is what I enjoy. The
game has been great to us and uh people, you know,
I had the I had the the nicest way of
starting my day and talking to a man that I've
looked up. What up about my whole life? And it's you,
(43:35):
the way that you've played and the way that you
what you know and what you've been through and your
tournament life and your family life, and and and and
and doing things around the world to spread the gospel
of this game. Uh. We want to wish the Player
family the best. We always have pretty and shame to
(43:57):
you and Julie and your family been and I have never,
if I may respondment to say, I have never in
my life time met a greater gentleman than you and Harvey.
I know Harvey and he he's up there playing a
bit of God. He never forgets to talk about you.
So take care, my friend, and I'll see you Augusta. Yes,
(44:18):
Sir Gary, take care, my friend. God bless and enjoyed it.
Enjoyed it. Don't forget to subscribe to The Players series
on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcast.
It's very interesting Bed they talk about great pudders and
brand as you know did that story. Yeah, almost impossible
to put the ten best pudders down because you forget
people forget about Jerry Barber. I'll never forget winning the
PGA against Don January in Chicago at something Feels. What
(00:28):
does the name of that golf course something Olympia Fields,
Olympia Field, he must he hold, There's never ever been
an exhibition of pudding like that other than you at
the Master's when I had my friend Dave King caddy
for me, I said, I'm so pleased you're cadding for
me because today you'll see for yourself what this man
crench or does. And I'll never forget on the fourth
(00:50):
hole on the fifth hold, I mean they're the flag
the front right on that big no. And you were
sure of the grid. And he said, well, now he
will never get out of two older. He was convinced. No, Gary,
I I remember reading about what what Jerry Barber did
to Don January. It was some like the last three
(01:13):
putts were all over thirty ft, but you know he
putted his method was I've never seen a method like that.
He putted really close to his feet, very upright, and
he had an old Natzi putter, kind of a blade
looking thing, but god, that guy putt he It was
(01:36):
very interesting. I saw him later on in his career.
He played a couple of tournaments and he was out
on the putting green and he was putting right across
the green sixties seventy ft and we said, what are
you doing? He said, well, I feel like if I
can gauge the speed of these long putts and then
go knock the short puts. And I said, I've got
(01:56):
a field for these greens this particular week. It was
very interesting. You know, it is Ben and he had
a he welded something on the thing that was the
work most wicked looking putty you've ever seen. And yet
find people say, well, you know, they forget that you've
got to have a good eye and that you've got
to have a good touch. And I mean you look
(02:17):
at Bobby Locke. He aimed everything three ft right as
a whole, even the left or right breaking hole, took
the put away inside and then didn't follow through an inch.
But he Casper never followed through our apartment, never followed through.
Doug Ford ever followed through they gave it a good rap,
a good acceleration, hitting down on the ball, and then
you get guys cross handed the claw. But these were
(02:39):
all things that were done a hundred years ago. This
wasn't discovered as of today. And that's why I must
just tell the folks how much I enjoy you being
the host at Augusta because you always give us such
lovely stories. And that's what always transpired at the Master's Dinner,
which is one of the greatest evenings that you will
(02:59):
ever experience. Into all those champions there, particularly when Bobby
Jones was there, and Clifford Roberts, and you know that
we also met President Eisenhower there. But you bring back
these great stories. And you know, Jack Nichol has always
told me what a great golfer Bobby Jones was, and
I was very naive. I didn't quite appreciate that. And
(03:20):
now as I get older, I realized he was a
phenomenal golfer. And I love the story. You always tell it.
Tell me when you see me, you imitate him, and
I'll never forget you. Said Bobby Jones said, it is
absolutely impossible, in fact inadequate to hit a bad shot
and still have the club in your hands. I tell
(03:45):
you that he was such an intellect, and he wrote
so well. As a matter of fact, Gary, when I
was preparing for this discussion, I have I have a
quote from him that I think apply to our putting
little treatise here, and I kept it for you, and
(04:06):
it says, anyone who hopes to reduce putting, or any
other department of the game of golf for that matter,
to an exact science, is in for serious disappointment, and
will only suffer from the attempt. It is wholly a
matter of touch, the ability to gauge a slope accurately,
(04:29):
and most important of all, the ability to concentrate on
the problem at hand, and that of getting the ball
into the hole, and nothing more. I mean he could write,
he could write for all of us, really, and not
describe what you and I were thinking in the most
(04:49):
important aspects of our career. I mean those putts that
you you made, uh, you know it lit them. Uh.
That was my first Open championship and you won that week.
That was the big ball, the American ball, and you
you won that tournament. And you know, I know that
(05:13):
you hold your old putts at critical times, but you
know another when you won that that masters that when
you made the incoming rush on the back night and
you hold some putts that were just incredible. And uh
you did mention too that Uh our big fellow who
(05:35):
won the US Open, who's John Rob Those two putts
were some of the prettiest putts I ever saw, both
big left to right breaking putts. They had to have
the perfect speed on them. They were two beautiful putts.
And uh, you know, putting it has always been an
art to me. And I never saw Bobby lock putt,
(05:58):
but I saw him in film. But uh, you know
that man had such a touch and an ability to
read slopes, and no one would ever teach that method. Uh.
You and I have seen so many different methods work,
and I think that's what's fascinating about putting. Uh there's
(06:21):
no right or wrong way to go about it. And
you know you you mentioned Brad Faxson and Brad Faxson
is one of the prettiest putters I ever saw. He
just gets up and hits it. No practice stroke, He
he sizes it up and makes that beautiful stroke. Great touch.
He's just got beautiful touch in his in his hands
and fingers. But um, uh, it's a part of the game.
(06:45):
It's mystifying to some, but we do know Gary that
you in order to win a tournament, and win big tournaments,
the putts have to go down. That's the only way
that you're gonna reduces your scores. H But in tight
situations it's a tough thing to do. But you have
(07:06):
to have belief in yourself. Right, that's right. And then
the thing is, there's so much I think hogwash spoken
about long hitting. Now that's all you hear is about
long hitting. And even though the guy like Deschambro, I
think he has a very nice but he gets a
bit slashy oft times, as Tiger did. And it's unnecessary
(07:27):
because if you hit it hard and you slash it,
there's only a difference about ten yards, which is not
really any significance. But if you look at the way
they putted every time, you wouldn't have torment. I say,
what wins a golf Torment is keeping the ball in play,
having a very good mind. I can't explain of mind
as you know that to be able to put extremely well,
(07:48):
because it makes you feel like Tarzan instead of Mickey
Mouse three putting it. And what I've just really irritates me,
and I suppose it shouldn't. I don't think it should
be allowed odd that you should be allowed to have
a book on helping you read a dream. The greatest
putters that ever lived, none of them ever had a book.
And there's nobody putting today that could put better than
(08:11):
those guys. In fact, I don't believe the best pudders
today can put as well as the better put as
of yesterday, because they play on greens and are twice
as good as what we played on. And you never
saw anybody bringing a book out. Where is the game
to that you've got to have a book to tell
you the slope. If you can't read a pot, surely
(08:31):
reading a put is part of the game. Yeah, I
totally agree. I you know, I don't play any tournaments anymore,
but I have heard Gary that lately the chorus is
getting louder about getting rid of the books. And one
of the one of the players that I really respect
a lot, and Rory McIlroy, I think that he is uh.
(08:56):
I think he's a he's a member of the policy board,
I guess on both sides of the Atlantic, but I
think he I think that he If I'm not incorrect,
I think that he's in favor of getting ready to
grind of the books. Um it is. It's no, no question,
simply a part of the game to read, to read
(09:17):
a green, that's part of golf. I just think of
all the time that it would save as well as
as uh as. Golfers now, especially professionals, are scrutinized about
the time that it takes them to play. So I
(09:37):
don't know, I I I I'm old enough to know
that I can't believe a lot of the things that
I see these days. The distances are just mind boggling.
I never thought that people would be hitting the ball
(09:58):
as far as they do. Uh uh. You know, it's
interesting about Bryson de Shambo. Ah. Yes, people are enamored
with his long hitting, but people forget how well he
putted those greens at wingfoot exactly. You and I know
that those greens are difficult to part. There's some undulations
(10:20):
there that you really have to work out. He put
it unbelievable that way, lucky, but that's a you have to.
The putts have to go down, there's no question about that.
That's right. And reading the greens is such an important
part because if you don't, if you don't pick the
right line, you're not gonna hold him. And you've only
(10:43):
got to look today. I think the best putter on
the tour today is Jordan's speed. I mean his His
long game is a lot to be improved on. He
misses a lot of fairways and greens that I really
admire him because he gets in there and he can
He can play poorly and still score, and that to
(11:05):
me is a big thing. He's really got that little
thing called it. He's a great competitor. He's a wonderful
young man. He's a good family man, a good all
American guy. Pull for him. If he could get his
swing right, my goodness, may be careful. He will be
number one on the tour. There's no question about it.
But you know the thing is that it's very interesting.
(11:27):
I spoke to Brandon Grace in South Africa last September
when I was in South Africa, and he said to me,
you know, when you and Arnold and Jack and the
guys won the tourments, there are only about thirty players
that you had to beat, whereas we got to beat
eighty ninety players. Now I said, yes, you do have
to beat eighty or ninety players now. Then I came
back during COVID. I was in Philadelphia and I went
(11:50):
through on our tour, and we had fifty nine major
champions that played the tour when we played, fifty nine
nine major champions champions playing the tour right now. So
you've always got to be very careful what you say
about I don't see anybody hitting the boat. I've been
Hogan today. This is a long time ago. I mean
(12:14):
Sam Sneed and Ben Hogan and Byron Nelson and Jimmy
de Merritt, Lloyd Mangram. You can go down the line.
Those guys could really play. And when you think about it,
we're in our infancy right now. Ben, I mean, you're
getting guys coming out We've never there's never been even today,
no really big men playing golf. You know, the physique,
(12:35):
you know, I suppose Gary that the the RNA and
the U. S. G A are are obviously being scrutinized
about the distance of the ball is going with club
heads and implements and the ball and this and that.
But you really can't take away people's physical abilities. That's
(12:56):
that's that's something that that you know, no one ever
thought of. I know that you were a proponent of
really keeping a strong body, and you always have and
there was there was there was one guy, Frank Stranahan.
I guess way back who who's one of the first
I guess, But no, you can't discount that. The sad
(13:22):
part is Gary that you know, you and I build
golf courses and you I sort of cringe when you know,
you to offer up a championship test, you know, when
people are saying, well this, of course, there's got to
be seventy seventy six hundred yards. And it's very difficult
to make a golf course be a lasting enough that
(13:46):
that everybody could enjoy the game. It's very difficult to
put those things together. But we're sort of at that
threshold now. I I'm always of the opinion that of
for a golf course that yes has the framework of
of trying to reach everyone, and it is difficult to do.
(14:09):
But in a nutshell, if you have a golf course
that has a couple of part fives, a couple of
strong par fours on either side, a couple of short
par fours on either side that are great and testing
and you have four part three's that are of different lengths.
You've reached a lot of people and to where those
(14:32):
golf courses nestle against the countryside and look natural. That's
that's what we that's our aim and objective. And you
and I have studied the world's best courses and it's
fascinating to me that they're sort of a kinship and
all of them, that they're naturally placed. They offer a test. Uh. Yes,
(14:56):
they're difficult in spots, but they're not completely overbear. I
don't think anyone enjoys a slug fest every hole. Uh. Interest,
well Jones said it interest supersed link every time. It's
(15:16):
a kind of a an alarming quote. But you know,
when you think about it, you want to hold people's
interests as much as you can. And uh, some of
the world's greatest holes, Ah well, let's started by the
number twelve that Augusta. I think that holds people attentions
(15:37):
pretty well, confounds everyone. Uh, but are you thinking of
some of the great short part forwards in the world
that are just fascinating to watch? The tenth hole at
Riviera in Los Angeles, and uh, uh, they're they're they're,
they're just wonderfully done. They're fascinating they But Ben, the
(16:01):
thing is that we've got to be very careful of
one of the things that my brother was the world's
leading conservationist, and fifty years ago he said to me,
water is going to be the big problem in your
children's lifetimes. And were finding that out right now when
you see the drafts that are taking place all over
the world and the big lakes that we automatically got
(16:23):
water from Lake Mead I e down to. We cannot
afford to have golf courses that are, you know, eight
thousand yards long, because we don't have the water unless
we use In fact, I think in time to come, Ben,
we will not be able to use portable water for
golf courses. Will have to use the the you know,
(16:45):
the sewerage water that's been refined. We will not be
allowed to use that fresh water because and the other
thing is the fertilizer. Fertilization continuously. I know on my
crops on my farm, if I kept using fertilizer, the
soil det aiorated. So and then the other thing is
the expense. How much it costs to buy the machinery.
(17:06):
It costs a living fortune. So I think to me,
my advice to everybody who talks to us about a
golf course, I say, look, the odds of having a
tournament on your golf course are remote. Let's build a
golf course for the future where your your people are
going to enjoy it as members. You'll have good youth programmed,
you'll have a great camaraderie that exists, a good practice
(17:29):
tea facilities. But forget about a tournament golf course because
it just upsets the members anyway, They're not going to
enjoy it. And the expense, Wow, the expense is enormous. Ben,
you know what it costs just to put sand in
bunkers been, Oh, it is. And I'd like to to
echo your thoughts about conservation too, because if you really
(17:53):
consider what kind of research is done now with the
turf grass universities and the U. S g A with
their Green Section, you have to really scrutinize what varieties
and species you're gonna put on on that golf course.
And some of the grasses now are just fantastic. Uh.
(18:13):
Some of the zoises that we've worked with are just
wonderfully adapted to heat. And you don't have to water
them that much. You don't have to fertilize them that much. Uh.
We're the golf industry is constantly looking for species of
grass that that will thrive in these conditions. But you're
right at the cost of upkeep for a golf course
(18:37):
is enormous. That costs everyone, costs everyone, the members of
your club. Uh. You dues are are expensive. But you
have to consider these things. Uh. One thing is is unbelievable, though, Gary,
when you start thinking about golf as a worldwide recreation
(19:00):
is people are playing golf. It's amazing how popular it is.
You know, of course we've had this rotten pandemic, but
it is rekindled a lot of people's romance with the game.
Every club around North America is full and a lot
of people are coming to the game for the first time. Ah.
(19:23):
I know that where you are in the UK, people
would like to get out more and recreate. Ah. But
if you consider golfs ability to thrive, and you know,
our game, Gary has been around over five dred years.
It's amazing that the thought of it hasn't changed that much.
(19:50):
The aim and the objective of the game. Uh. And
it's amazing when you talk to people who take up
the game what it means to them, and they the one, well,
that's the game for a lifetime. Well it is, and
it's something to learn every day. Uh. But you know, Gary,
going back to the Masters and the Champions dinner, it's
(20:15):
such an honor to stand up there and and talk
to you guys. I never dreamed that Byrone Nelson would
call me on the phone. He said, Been, I want
you to take over for the dinner. I went, wow. Uh,
it's an honor. Uh. And it's when you wouldn't look
out at all of your champions. We have a kinship
(20:37):
because we've been through it and we're proud that we've
got through it to do something like that, um common
thread of all of us. But the chance for us
to be together and relive old stories. Uh. And just
(20:57):
a number of people, number of professionals who'd like to
be in that room. We're very very lucky. Yes, absolutely, absolutely, no.
Being it's a it's a game. When you think about it,
you can play forever. That can help a young man.
He should choose his sport very wisely because it comes
(21:19):
a day when he cannot play anymore, and golf and
can help him in his business enormously, and if you're
not a champion golf or whatsoever, it's the most difficult
game ever invented. I mean, my wife and I have
great debates. My favorite sport to watch on television is tennis. Now,
I tell her, I said, you know, when you win Wimbledon,
(21:42):
you've got to beat property six or seven guys. I said,
when we win the British Open or the US Open,
or whatever it may be, we've got a hundred and
fifty six guys teeing off in the tournament. And every
day we're playing against a lot of guys, and you
might get an early morning time and the wooden blows.
(22:03):
I said, when you played tennis, it's the same conditions
for you as against that other man. We play against
rain and wind and sunshine in the afternoon and completely
different conditions. The greens are not as good in the afternoon,
the bunkers are not as good. Nothing is as good,
So you know to win. To me, we have the debate.
And nobody had admis an athlete more than Djokovic than
(22:26):
I do. To see the way he's exercise and the
way he eats and his mindset. I'm such a fan
of his. And we saw what bul Micholson did that
the PJ this year. He lost X amount of pounds.
He looked young, he was focused. There was a great
encouragement for young people to to avoid obesity, which is
(22:48):
the biggest killer of mankind. So it was very The
golf can set such a great example to so many
people watching and learning about it, and the more they learned,
the more intrigued they are with the game. I think
it is Djokovic was an athlete. You know his range e,
(23:09):
he's his capacity, he stays healthy. In the next few years,
he's gonna set so many, so many records. It's incredible
what he's achieved now he's he's a lethal uh competitor. Uh.
And and really, and if you consider what Phil Nicholson
did that that is one of the great achievements of
(23:30):
of of of our sport. He you know, he looked
like he was in a trance the last two days. Focus,
his focus was on believing his brother on the bag
really helped him. But god, he was calm. And uh,
you know one thing too, I noted Gary that he
(23:54):
inserted a club in his bag. I think that really
helped him win. Was that was that too, would Brassy? Yes,
we kept the ball in play off the tea. Yes,
because a guy like that can score so well, he
just needs to keep it in play. What a victory
that was. Oh, it was really remarkable. And Ben, you know,
(24:15):
I remember fifty years ago saying one day because Raymond
Floyd came very close to winning at fifty, and I said,
one day there will be a man of fifty winning
a major. Now, and I've been known as a bit
of a cook with my predictions, I said, weight training
will become part of the game. Uh, they will, said
you mad, Even Ardole and Jason don't talk nonsense about
(24:35):
using weights. And then I said, somebody will win a
major at fifty. Now I'm going to say another cook thing,
somebody will win a major at sixty one day. Because
we're now going into a new mindset eating properly. No athletes,
student professional golfers are not good eaters. But any I mean,
you put any food in front of the man, they
eat it. So I mean, but now there's a new
(24:57):
trend of watching their diet game to the game, to
the gym, getting psychiatrists. I mean, it's a it's a
completely different game. I played with Taysom Hill, the guy
who plays a football for the Saints. Let me tell
you something. He's squatting with five hundred pounds. Oh my god,
he hit when I hit a drive and a three
(25:20):
iron and he had a drive in a sandwidge and
that's not mad, but I still waxed him anyway. But
the thing is that these guys, they're going to be
hitting the ball close to five hundred yards. I'm telling
you right now, we as they say in the classics,
we ain't seen nothing yet. And so the U s
g A and the RNA and all the leaders the
(25:43):
p g A have got to slow the ball down. Ben.
If they don't slow the ball down, it's going to
be a fass. They'll stand on the first here in
Augusta and this will happen again, and they'll drive the green.
I mean, even right now, Bryson on a reasonably hot
firmed he can get within ten yards of it. So
(26:04):
is going to be a short hitter in time to come.
Never dreamed that we'd see the things that we're seeing.
Just amazing. And like you say, more than half of
the players on tour now can carry the ball three
hundred yards it's it's amazing and hit they hit a
(26:25):
seven nine yards. It's just amazing to me. You know
the way I played Gary, I'll hit one out there
and I'll go, yeah, wait, I thought I hit that
ball better than that. But let me give you some
food for thought. Jack Nicholas and Dallas in the long
driving competition were that old ball in those old clubs
(26:48):
he hit. He won it with three hundred and forty
one yards. People forget that, and he still got the
money clip to prove it because he doesn't keep any
money in at you if you pay well. But the
fact he still did that, now, can you imagine having
given Jack uh the drivers, the lightweight shafts, and the
(27:11):
middle head and the ball. I mean, guys, tell you
about a ball today. This ball doesn't suit me. You
know that's a foreign language. Just give me that little
white bull man. Let me go play, you know what
I mean. So I remember I remember by Byron Nelson
telling me he said, somebody asked him what were the
(27:31):
golf balls like in your day? And he said, well,
he said, I ever got a if I ever got
a good one, I'd play a few holes with him.
I said, God, they were. But Uh, golf is so
scientific now, I'm amazed how scrutinized. And you're right. I mean,
(27:53):
if you think about the equipment that they play with,
the golf ball and the components of the heads, and
you just think of agronomy, like you mentioned earlier, the
greens are beautiful. The greens are so good. No, no
wonder that scores go down, because you know, if you
see a beautiful green out there, you say, well, I
(28:16):
shouldn't make these butts, and I do make them. But
if you start thinking about what the agronomy was thirty
forty years ago, and that that was attributable to a
lot of different things. Uh, scoring had had a lot
to do with how the courses were. But man, it's
(28:38):
the golf courses are beautifully presented now, let's say. And uh,
no no question about the records and uh but you
know it's still it's you know, and the old it
still takes two to get there. You hit the ball,
you in it twice and those other two shots constitute
(29:02):
either a two pot or get the ball up and down.
That it never never changes. Every my contention is every
tournament that you watch, I don't care what it is
around the Globe, the top ten finishers will have chipped
and putted well. Absolutely. You know, it never fails. You know,
(29:27):
when you're not hitting the ball at well, you hit
it off the green. You gotta get that ball up
and down, and it's a way, it's it's it never changes.
I think the top ten scores will have chipped and
putted well. In other words, they get the ball in
the whole fast. Yeah, I mean, oh, I know that.
And what's in the US Open? Ram had a four
(29:47):
iron to the lost total of five. He didn't put
the fall on the green. He still made biddy. He
hold that magnificent put and it's seventeen. He hold one,
and then you see ust Hazen right behind him. He
bog is the easiest hole on the course, one of
the easiest on seven team and losers. I mean, you know,
(30:09):
people must understand it's the putting in the end that
makes all the difference. My goodness me that putting that
in that well, I'll tell you what in in in
mentioning Louis and Charles Schwartz or Schwartzel, I maintained that
they've got to the prettiest swings that I've ever seen
(30:29):
they're just beautiful. Oh my god. Yeah. Yeah, there's no question.
There's not a better swing on the tour than Louis.
I mean, I think people like Rory McElroy and Adam
Scott great swings, but Louis is just unbelievable the way
he swings that club. He he, I don't know why
(30:52):
he's not winning. He's not winning and he's so close.
Now he's got to sit down and say, well, there's
a reason, and uh, you know, that's something he's got
to take into consideration. He's a wonderful young man. In fact,
South Africans have done extremely well for a small country.
To win twenty three majors, more in any country in
the world other than the US post war is quite remarkable.
(31:16):
And we've got a lot of wonderful young guys coming
along right now. That's right. And I've always admired Ratief
Goosen too. He continues to play beautiful golf. He's beautiful
to watch. Uh. I just I maintained too that you know,
if you you know the game, and you've grown up
(31:39):
in Australia and South Africa, you know how to play
the game. You've played in all sorts and conditions. Something
just popped into my head. When you know this list
of courses which you and I will probably agree on
(32:01):
a lot, at the top ten courses that you've ever seen.
I always have this wonderful there was a photo of
you Gary winning the Australian Open at Kingston Heath and
you had a handkerchief. You had a handkerchief on your
face and we had allergies or something, but you won
(32:23):
on that golf course. I contend that Kingston Heath one
of the world's greatest courses. That you could have everybody
out there playing. It doesn't matter how far you hit it,
you still have to were going to be tested. That's
a great golf course. It's I think that the Australians.
Those courses have some of the prettiest bunkers in the world,
(32:45):
beautifully natural, rugged looking buckers. God, they're beautiful. Royal Melbourne
has always been one of my favorites too. I love
those golf courses because you have to play all kinds
of shots and the sand Belt in Melbourne in Victoria
is definitely the best group of golf courses together. They've
(33:08):
got something like seventeen and one of the great victories
of my life. We were playing in the Canada Cup,
the World Cup and now in France and Arnold, Jack
and I were going to go to play Royal Melbourne
Australian Open. And we have a fogged out in France
and travel agent said, look, I can get you there
(33:28):
three hours before you play Arnold and Jack Withdrew. I
went arrived there three and a half hours before. I
don't know what. We went from France to New York
to l A to to Away, to Fiji, to Sydney
to Melbourne and I've never I've never seen I've never
seen Royal Melbourne in my life and given my a
(33:49):
new set of clubs and I won't Australian Opened by
seven shots always in Royal Melbourne's my favorite. It is
a majestic place that is unbelievable. They were slashinger two,
weren't they right? And what I like? They come on
(34:12):
to you when you first get over. Then they said, well, Gary,
here your three balls for the week and then you'd
have a ring. You'd have a ring to see if
all the ball would go through the ring, and one
ball we would go through the ring. The ring to
realize you were playing with ball and it wasn't round.
(34:34):
Oh I have things have changed. I guess we can
get now. I guess Gary will get up in one
of Richard Branson's rockets and you go over there. You
you go from you go from the UK where you
are Australian an hour or something. I guess I don't yeah, yeah,
but if they build a course, if they built a
course up there, very high up, you and I'll do
(34:56):
together and make sure we could reach all the fas.
But I just I would be remodered me not to
ask you about because I thought one of the most touching,
if not the most touching victory Augusta was with you
one uh and your great mentor Harvey Pinnic, who I
(35:16):
never I don't know if I have admit him, but
I just always admired that man with his little book
that he had, and the way he taught you and
Tom Kite and taught you both to be great gentlemen
and competitors. And then you actually did something, if I'm
not incorrect, which it's good to remind people. Didn't you
fly back during Augusta? Yes, yes, Tom Kite and I
(35:41):
flew back on Tuesday. We buried buried Harvey on Tuesday,
and I came back to the Masters on Wednesday and
one on the on the tournament. Believable. It may have
been the most selfless kind men I've ever met in
(36:03):
my life. He loved the game. It was a great teacher,
very humble god, you know. He taught Cathy Whitworth and
uh Nicky Right and uh Betsy Rawls and the women
professionals loved him. He was very, very kind, but he
was a great thing. Everybody knew him in the Southwest.
(36:24):
But he just preached, well, he didn't preach, but he
when we were little bitty kids, he said, look here,
here's what I need for you to do. I want
you to take this seven iron, go off the edge
of the green. I don't you chip that ball up
there and go knock it in the hole. One ball,
(36:44):
and then you're playing golf. He wants wanted to learn
the value of the little short shots of the pudding.
And it stayed with me the rest of my life.
I loved chipping and practicing the short game. And we
had putting matches. We'd all play and end up on
the punning green with punning matches, and it was just
(37:05):
they were fun. I enjoyed punny and competing. He wanted
us to compete as well. Uh. But he's very much
a fundamentalist that he really preached a good grip. He
always wanted to see people have the proper grip. Uh.
But the kindest man, selfless, selfless, and to have to
(37:30):
have one on that occasion for his memories. As always,
it will always be my finest achievement. But I told
many people so many times, I said, look, I had
a fifteen club in my bag and it was Harvey.
But also also no doubt in my mind that the
man upstairs put his hand on me and said, look,
(37:52):
we're gonna honor this gentleman, and I'm gonna see you through.
There's no there's no doubt in my mind, Gary, no doubt,
no doubt, no doubt. That's to me. Of all the
torments I've seen, it was the most touching because there's
no question that the Lord played his part in there.
And the same there was karma with John rom Winning.
I was very happy to see him when I'd like
(38:14):
to have seen him. It wasn't great, but I mean, yes, yeah,
Jack Nicholas said to me, Gary, You've got no idea
what a great round. He's sixty four. Was he says,
you have no idea, and then to be told that
you are, You're on your way, but he and then
to come back the next week and win. Now he'll
you know at the time, You know, adversity is that
(38:36):
it turns into joy. We've got to realize we always
all have adversity in our lives. You cannot escape it.
But it turns into joy if you persevere. And roma
was richly the rewarded. It was a magnificent victory. And god,
can that guy play. Wow, he is magnificent, so strong
(39:00):
his back swing, his back swing is a little bit
short for a young man. I'd like to see him
do some exercises to increase the length of his back swing.
You know. Funny enough, I've never seen in the history
of golf a superstar. Now, what is a superstar? A
(39:20):
superstar in my opinion, as a person who wins six
majors and more. You've got to sit the bar for superstar.
There's a vast difference between superstar and a star. But anyway,
I've never seen a superstar other than Trevino. But even
when he was young, who had a full back swing.
I never saw anybody with a short back swing ever
become a superstar. It's never happened in golf. It's very
(39:43):
very interesting, you know. And there's no question too, if
you consider people's achievements over a long time, over in decades,
you always go with a guy with a longer backswing
last longer. Yes, it's said for that. Yes, well, there
are always the exceptions to the rule, and if the
(40:05):
freaks have come out and do things that other people
haven't done. But if I was John Rame, I'd be
working on I'd been doing something. It's a type of
exercise to really increase my turn on the back swing,
because over the years it's going to stand him in
good stead. But then somebody turns around and says, well,
by that time, you'll left two hundred million or three
hundred million in the bank. I said, but that's not
(40:26):
what we all play for. We all played to what
I wouldn't. I mean, if I said you you could
have taken your two Masters victories and given the prize
money away, oh my goodness, and not have it. You'd
rather have the Masters and the prize money. I know
you kept the prize money. But if somebody, if you
(40:47):
came up the last hole and somebody said, Ben, take
a double bogey here and I'll give you a hundred million.
You wouldn't have taken it, because then the Masters means
so much. The money is negligible. Exact is negligible. I
mean to think that we have lifetime memories and we've
achieved something that people haven't is something in this game.
(41:10):
But wow, it's a it's a sufficient reward to one
there at Augusta. I know that you've won all over
the world, all of majors. You want more tournaments in anybody? Uh,
But you know, and I must say too, it's to me.
Sometimes I listen to the arguments about which major means
(41:34):
more to certain people. I can't. I can't take a
part that argument that you know, I haven't won the
other ones. I've been lucky to have won the Master's, Yes,
but I to choose one over the other. It is
pretty difficult when you start thinking about how many times
that you and I both played against the competition in
(41:57):
really important tournaments around the world have come up on top.
Who's to say that one is not more important. Major
tournaments are major tournaments, wow, and they're their special achievements
and they should be viewed as such. Uh, you know,
different different facets of major tournaments appealed to certain people
(42:21):
and their tastes and this and that. But uh, wow,
I've been lucky enough to to one a couple of
important tournaments. But wow, it's made my It's made my
life and made me study different things about golf too
that give me so much fulfillment and enjoy it's uh,
(42:48):
different parts of the game and studying golf courses, to
me is still my greatest hobby. And I've got the
greatest partner in the world and Bill Coore, who's just
the nice his person, and he's very imaginative. And we've
been very lucky to build a few good courses and
will continue. But certainly and to go around and meet
(43:11):
people who love the game is what I enjoy. The
game has been great to us and uh people, you know,
I had the I had the the nicest way of
starting my day and talking to a man that I've
looked up. What up about my whole life? And it's you,
(43:35):
the way that you've played and the way that you
what you know and what you've been through and your
tournament life and your family life, and and and and
and doing things around the world to spread the gospel
of this game. Uh. We want to wish the Player
family the best. We always have pretty and shame to
(43:57):
you and Julie and your family been and I have never,
if I may respondment to say, I have never in
my life time met a greater gentleman than you and Harvey.
I know Harvey and he he's up there playing a
bit of God. He never forgets to talk about you.
So take care, my friend, and I'll see you Augusta. Yes,
(44:18):
Sir Gary, take care, my friend. God bless and enjoyed it.
Enjoyed it. Don't forget to subscribe to The Players series
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